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Posted By: Dan Clark Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 02:18 AM
That's the good news (Pic below). The features are great and the grand piano sound is excellent. But...

The bad news is that the action seems very heavy. (Yes, I know about the touch control.) The problem is that I have arthritis in my hands. Combined with the heavy action, my wrists and hands are very sore after a few sessions playing (maybe 90 minutes total).

My Casio PX-850 has a much lighter action. Also, my piano lessons are taken on one of several grand pianos including, Yamaha, Hailun, and Steinway (a couple times). I can't be sure but these seem to have much lighter actions. And when I tried a CA65 and a CA95, they didn't seem to have an action this heavy. (I could be mistaken on this.) I'm trying to like the MP11 and I'll keep going for a few more days to see if I can handle the heavy key action, but I'm very concerned about this.

IF I have to return it for another DP, what other quality DP would you recommend that is very close to a light action grand piano? Does the VPC1 have a lighter action?

Thanks and regards,

Dan.

The work table is only a temporary set up.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Morodiene Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 02:30 AM
Congrats!

The VPC is slightly heavier feeling when playing high up on the keys (in between the black keys), otherwise it's the same.

I would try out the Light or Light + setting on the Virtual Technician first. In fact, I believe the default is that you have that parameter when you turn on the instrument, it should be Knob D labeled "Touch". If you turn it to either of those two settings and try playing, I think you will notice a big difference. Really, the action is in relation to the sound you are getting, and when you get a bigger sound from less pressure, then you will play lighter. If you get a softer sound, you will play heavier in order to achieve the desired sound.

Try it out for a while, and certainly don't start with a marathon 90 minute session. wink
Posted By: minstrelman Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 02:36 AM
just want to say, in order:
tbh, jealous.... I want one......lol
really surprised. I have a CA65. I find the action at times to be perhaps a little on the light side. that said, within minutes of starting to play, I feel very very happy with the action just as it is. it is not too light, not too heavy......
I do not know another dp to recommend to you. the vpc1 has the RM3 II action: http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/vpc-1/vpc-1.html
I have never played one.
I played a CA93. I think that has a similar action (I think RM3....but no II). I only played it once for a short time. I really liked it.

I hope your arthritis gets better. pain is no fun.
Posted By: kippesc Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 02:46 AM
The Roland RD-700NX has a light action (maybe too light), a bit lighter than my Steinway. Nonetheless, I generally find that Morodiene's comment is true. I'd think you could fiddle with the touch curve and get where you need to be. I love the Kawai DPs. Hopefully, you'll get yours to work for you.

It's possible the banquet table is part of the problem. I've got one of those very tables. I'd think it'd flex a bit while playing.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 03:51 AM
Most people who have played both feel that the GF action in your MP11 feels lighter than the RM3-II in the VPC1. I have the predecessor with Kawai's closely related AWA-Pro action and it's quite heavy. If GF is unsuitable, even after turning up the volume and/or adjusting touch curves, I think you should move away from Kawai.

Roland's actions are often considered lighter (at least, PHAIII...PHAIV is apparently a bit heavier) but by no means low impact. Personally I don't fine them very satisfying, but your hands may have difference preferences and expectations.
Posted By: Digitalguy Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by Morodiene

The VPC is slightly heavier feeling when playing high up on the keys (in between the black keys), otherwise it's the same.


Well, that's probably good news for me then... I had always thought GF was clearly lighter than RM3(II). If that's the only difference it means it's heavier only on ff/fff (that's at least when I mainly use that part of the key).
Contrary to Dan, I tend to prefer heavier actions, probably because I learnt to play on my mother's baby grand and that's probably my standard. I have tried PHAIII and find it too light, I have also tried the ES7 and find it too light too. I have settled on the Ivory feel G, which feels the closest to my "standard" and I am pretty happy with it, but RM3 and GF are virtually unanimously considered clearly superior, but I haven't found a shop that sells them not too far (several hours of driving) from where I live.
Can someone tell me how RM3 and GF compare to RH2 (ES7 and MP7 I think), especially with regards to heaviness? If you have also tried PHAIII and Ivory feel G in addition to that, that would be even more interesting...
Thanks!
Posted By: jarosujo Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 08:45 AM
I would not call Grand piano action light. Some of them are lighter, some of them heavier. I would say differencies regarding action and sound in acoustic pianos are even bigger than in digital pianos.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 09:28 AM
Congrats on you MP11, Dan. I wouldn't fret at this stage. Maybe anxiousness is playing a part in your sense impression of the action - fear of fear itself.

As Erin suggests, make sure you've got the piano set to a decent volume with a bright sound, a real piano is much louder than most of us get used to when playing a DP. Then ease into it, no need to play demanding stuff at the outset.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 10:01 AM
Congrats Dan!

Are you playing the instrument at the correct height?
From your photograph, it appears that the table may be a little tall, which may cause you to adjust a different playing position.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Morodiene Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Congrats Dan!

Are you playing the instrument at the correct height?
From your photograph, it appears that the table may be a little tall, which may cause you to adjust a different playing position.

Kind regards,
James
x

Great suggestion, James. I was just thinking the same thing. If I am not playing at the correct height, my arms get sore too. And by "correct" there is a some leeway, but anything too far in either extreme is not good. Try the DP out when you get is on a decent stand adjusted to the right height for you, and with the Light touch selected and see if that doesn't help.
Posted By: kapelli Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 04:49 PM
Dań,

Firstly I second the others proposal - at first the properposition and piano height.
Regarding the GF actio, it isn't heavy. RM action from VPC1 is heavier.

Real Grand actions can be a lot more heavy than GF.
However, you will find roland action lighter, but also not so realistic.

It you will still have problems, firstly just give your hands time to adiutant.
If you were playing before on light actions, what I consider, give yourself a month or so to get used to this action,
So your finger will be stronger.

Posted By: LarryMan Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 06:22 PM
Just out of curiosity what is the "correct height"?

Can someone provide the height (from ground to keys) on a console DP (Kawai CA, Roland HP, Yamaha)?

Thanks


Posted By: peterws Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 06:29 PM
Now, that is a looker. But she`s a biggie for carting around! I wonder if the inertia of the (wooden?) keys plays a part in this problem you have?
Posted By: kapelli Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by LarryMan
Just out of curiosity what is the "correct height"?

Can someone provide the height (from ground to keys) on a console DP (Kawai CA, Roland HP, Yamaha)?

Thanks




Grand standard is like 70cm. On uprights can be bit hiigher due to action solutions.
Posted By: Morodiene Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 07:05 PM
My Petrof is about 29.5" (74.93 cm) to the tops of the keys and about an inch of that is due to caster cups. Don't forget, too, that bench height plays a part in this.

First, though, you want the piano at a height in this range of 27-29" and then adjust the bench height so that your feet can be flat on the floor when you are sitting at about mid-way on the bench (not all the way back like you would in a chair). When you rest your hands on the keys, your forearms should be roughly parallel to the floor. Some people like being a bit higher than the keys, but this is a good place to start.

Also, distance from the keys is important. Extend your arms straight out in front of you and make fists with your hands. Your fists, should touch the "fallboard" - that flat part where the keys are visible - without you having to lean forward or back.

Lastly, you will also need to be careful of the placement of the pedals since the MP11 doesn't have a stand that does that for you. The damper pedal (the one to the right) lines up roughly with A4, and the pedal unit should be a distance of about 8-9" back from the front of the piano.
Posted By: Dan Clark Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 07:11 PM
Lady and gentlemen,

Thanks for the great feedback. Great observations and suggestions!

While I prefer a lighter action, the bigger issue is wrist pain. That said, part of the issue may be playing it from a standing position (much too high). When I played it while sitting on a kitchen bar stool, the keyboard height is much closer to the key height of my Casio - 29 inches. While my hands were a bit stiff and sore after the last session, there was much less wrist pain. And it was muscle pain, not joint pain in the wrist. Much different and tolerable.

I'm still getting used to the touch and playing with the controls, especially the touch control. My next piano lesson is this Friday, 4/18. I'm going to do my best to compare the acoustic grands with my MP11. They may be very comparable and I just didn't notice that.

Overall it's looking more positive. I'll post updates over the next few days. Including the install.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. I got to play a 1948 Steinway 6'11" grand. Wonderful sound and amazing playability. If I could get my Marianne (my better half) to buy off on cost ($30K) and size, and NOT remove certain... uhmm... body parts, I would have bought it right there. Awesome piano. Oh, well... Maybe some day.

p.p.s. Below are a couple of pics showing my Casio (at different times) and where the MP11 will be installed.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: lolatu Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/16/14 07:41 PM
If you test the keys with the sound off, playing forte, are they all completely even, with no rubbing, clicks, creaking, or strange thuds?

Nice bench BTW.
Posted By: william_s Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/17/14 02:20 AM
[edit] had a dimensions questions, but was able to find it elsewhere smile

Posted By: Joe Garfield Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/17/14 03:52 AM
I have an X-stand that was too tall when playing my Casio or Yamaha. I thought I would need a new stand ASAP with the MP10. As it turns out, 28.5" to the top of the keys and it feels perfect! smile
Posted By: peterws Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/17/14 06:04 AM
That must be the Universally Accepted Standard . . .My Yammie`s the same; exactly.
Posted By: william_s Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/17/14 01:41 PM
I thought I would attach this really helpful image I was able to get from Kawai support. It shows the distance from the surface the piano rests on to the top of the keys. This will allow anyone who is building a special table/shelf/workstation to know where to set the height of that surface at.

The keys on the MP11 are 105mm (4.13in) from the surface the piano is placed on. So if you wanted something close to that 28.5-inch height being discussed here for example, you would want the height of whatever you place the MP11 on to be about 24-24.5-inches tall.

PLEASE NOTE: Image shows "115"mm but Kawai confirmed with me it is actually 105mm (90mm + 15mm for rubber feet = 105mm)
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Morodiene Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/17/14 01:56 PM
Thanks william_s, that is really helpful!
Posted By: doremi Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/18/14 03:24 PM
The drawing looks wrong to me, in particular: hinge instead of key fulcrum, keyboard front-back reversed. I suggest you re-confirm things with Kawai support.
Posted By: Wuffski Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/18/14 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dan Clark
My next piano lesson is this Friday, 4/18. I'm going to do my best to compare the acoustic grands with my MP11. They may be very comparable and I just didn't notice that.


I recommend to organize getting your teacher to visit you at home to at least once watch and correct how you practice or play there. That's where you spend most of your time with the piano, and posture at home is thus your key to avoid injuries. So, forget for one session about learning new things from the book, but just play old stuff which you perfectly know to play already and concentrate that session only on your posture.
All the best!
Posted By: Dan Clark Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/18/14 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Marco M
Originally Posted by Dan Clark
My next piano lesson is this Friday, 4/18. I'm going to do my best to compare the acoustic grands with my MP11. They may be very comparable and I just didn't notice that.


I recommend to organize getting your teacher to visit you at home to at least once watch and correct how you practice or play there. That's where you spend most of your time with the piano, and posture at home is thus your key to avoid injuries. So, forget for one session about learning new things from the book, but just play old stuff which you perfectly know to play already and concentrate that session only on your posture.
All the best!

Marco,

Great suggestion. It turns out that just this morning my teacher and I discussed an in home lesson when I get the MP11 installed. (Great minds... grin )

Thanks,

Dan.
Posted By: Dan Clark Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/19/14 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by william_s
I thought I would attach this really helpful image I was able to get from Kawai support. It shows the distance from the surface the piano rests on to the top of the keys. This will allow anyone who is building a special table/shelf/workstation to know where to set the height of that surface at.

The keys on the MP11 are 105mm (4.13in) from the surface the piano is placed on. So if you wanted something close to that 28.5-inch height being discussed here for example, you would want the height of whatever you place the MP11 on to be about 24-24.5-inches tall.

PLEASE NOTE: Image shows "115"mm but Kawai confirmed with me it is actually 105mm (90mm + 15mm for rubber feet = 105mm)
[Linked Image]

william_s,

Thanks for posting this. To add some value, I measured the distance from edge of the DP to the edge of the feet. The distance is roughly 2.5" (63.5mm) front and back, and on the sides.

There are a couple caveats however... My measurements were taken from the closest metal vertical on the side of the piano. In the front, there is a metal piece that sticks out about 1/2" just below the keys. The measurements were taken below that. The wood embellishments on the side stick out slightly over 1/2". The side measurements were taken from the vertical medal underneath wood.

I hope this is useful for folks who are installing their MP11 on a shelf or stand.

Regards,

Dan.
Posted By: Dan Clark Re: Just got my MP11! - 04/19/14 01:56 AM
Attached are two drawings of what the shelves should look like. The first is an overview showing the DP shelf with the front facing. I'll try to stain to match the color MP11 side wood. The second pic shows the details of the slider without the front facing.

Regards,

Dan.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
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