Hello.
I appreciate all of your input very much.

Earlier, I posted here asking very broad question which I understand some
consider not worth answering...now after reading past similar questions, I can
see and am sorry I didn't do my homework beforehand... And to those who
took the time and wrote in, I really appreciate your input. Thank you~!

Now, I actually narrowed down my choices...I think...
It came down to Kawai MP10.(or MP11)
Unfortunately, not many places carry that model in the stores.
I went to try the digital console style ones which has similar key action
and I loved it!!

Just out of curiosity, I tried CP209...I couldn't believe it was a digital
piano!!! I was blown away with that RM3 wooden action and so I can't
remember if I tried/liked the Grand Feel key action on other models...
Does CP209 have same key action as MP10? (can't tell if RM3 Wooden-Key,
Graded-Hammer Action w/ Let-Off is the same as RM3 Grand Wooden-Key
action with Let-off??)

I am little confused...I know that Grand Feel key action is the newest latest
technology and so in theory, its the closest thing to a real thing??

Since I am in the hobby pianist range, I am not sure which feel I should go for
if I want to eventually move back to acoustic maybe 10yrs or so down the
road...
At the same time, since I will more than likely stay in the hobby pianist field,
should I just get the MP10 instead of MP11...?

Is MP11 sooo much better than MP10??

Any input is appreciated...
Thank you in advance!

I have not played an MP10 or an MP11 (yet - I will play the latter today!!!), but the GF action is the latest and greatest from Kawai, and form my understanding the best out there now. I have played the RM3 II action with graded hammer and let-off and found that to be awesome compared with acoustic grand pianos. The CP209 appears to have RM3 and not RM3 II, not sure what the difference would be there. Also the CP209 may lack triple sensors, which will affect things where fast repetition of notes is required. I'm not sure on the distinctions, but I know Kawai James would be able to clarify this more.

I think the big draw for the CP209 is the look of a grand piano. If you don't necessarily need the grand piano cabinet, then going with something like the CA65/95 would probably be better for you (and be a bit nicer to your wallet as well). That has the GF action which is the best Kawai has to offer. I think the 95 has better speakers than the 65.

Now if you're looking for something in a slab style, or you don't care much about having a furniture-like cabinet, the MP11 is the way to go. That also has the GF action.

If you can compare the feel of the CA65/95 to the CP209 you should notice a difference. In the end, it comes down to what you like the most.

Speaking from a bit of experience, (!) I`ve found that it doesn`t matter too much which keyboard you use to play pretty much whatever. Yamaha GHS is generally regarded as naff, and I`d concur with that. But it gets the job done for me, so really, I don`t think you`d have any problem with many of Kawai`s offerings keyboard wise. . . .I`d go for the sound every time. Stop worrying and wondering. Get playing!

MP11. The third sensor in particular does matter. The longer keys may be more a matter of preference although the GF clearly has an advantage also in that respect.

I wouldn't be surprised if the sound generator in the MP11 is audibly better than that in the MP10. But I can't know since I've not yet played an MP11.

Watched YouTube video for mp11.
Looks/sounds awesome.
GF is very very good.
Good system to play through, I would call a must.
From what I know, and saw on the video, the mp11 is a screaming no brainer, slam dunk buy.

I was unimpressed by the tone of the MP10, Its action I found sluggish and rubbery. The GF action is better - faster and more poised. I imagine the tone of MP11 will be at least slightly improved. I definitely think you should get the MP11. The price difference is negligable.

I would spend the extra money for the MP11.

You don't mention any price difference between the two and if that is the case, I don't see a reason to opt for MP10. For me personally, the price difference would have to be extremely huge.

GF is the latest, but there are lots of different flavors of actions (both real and digital) so it's not clear that everyone will say it's the greatest or most similar to an acoustic. The key length is longer, which shoud be a win, but if you change one thing in an action, you change everything so it is possible that there are other aspects of GF that you like less than RM3.

There were several people who tried GF when it first came out and said they liked RM3 more. They are a minority, but you may be in that group.

The CP209 you tried has a lot of other features that may distract you from the actual action. I find it hard to compare actions if I'm not going straight from one to the other and if there is a big difference in the soundsThe same thing may have happened to you.

pnbgnr8, as others have noted, the CP209 utilises the original 'RM3 Grand' keyboard action. This keyboard action was also used used in the CA93/CA63 console models and MP10 stage piano.

The 'Grand Feel' ('GF') keyboard action is similar to 'RM3 Grand', however it features triple sensor key detection, longer keys, a longer key pivot, and counter weights in almost every key. This action is currently available in Kawai's latest CA95/CA65 and CS10/CS7 console models, and the new MP11 stage piano.

Given the choice between the MP10 and MP11, I would almost certainly opt for the latest model...however I'm obviously somewhat biased.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
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So James, is the GF better (more acoustic like) than the VPC1s RM3II? Not sure I'm following this correctly lol

How many times do you need this spelled out for you? Get the MP11...

M.P. Eleven

Thank you everyone for chiming in~!

I think...I might try to go for the MP11...I have to check with my hubby as far as funding is
concerned...(might help convince him by showing this thread)

I will probably try to go back to the store one more time to make sure which action I really like.
(I think they had console ones at the store but didn't check if those were the latest models...might
have been the older model...looked pretty worn out...)

As far as the differences in key actions...thank you for clarifying. Just by looking at Kawai's site,
it was little bit confusing for me to figure out...

I really appreciate your input! I hope I can get my hands on it pretty soon!
Thanks~!

Yes. The GF action has longer keys and a longer pivot point than the RM3II action so is - in theory - more acoustic-like.

Kind regards,
James
x

For what its worth, I looked at it this way for me. Let say I have the new MP11 10 years and its $300 more than the MP10. Will the $30 / year break me? Lets say I have it 5 years and it jumps to $60 /year difference in cost. Same answer, so I bought the MP11. Should be here by next week.

OP: everyone wants you to get the MP11 because they(we)'re excitable schoolboys (and girl) who like reading about people getting the latest gear. Like Christmas by proxy. If you have infinite money and nothing much else to spend it on, then you might as well go for the latest and greatest. But if you were blown away by an older model like the CP209, doesn't that tell you that you will be just as happy with an older model? ("Old" is relative, and doesn't mean bad. Digital piano technology advances at a snail's pace, so 2 or 3 years is nothing. Some here swear that DPs have been in a downward spiral since the CLP 990 in 2001.)

Really, the difference between the MP10 and MP11 is not that great, and unless you've been using a comparably high-level model already, or have a peer group of digital piano buffs to whom you need to show off, you're not going to notice the difference. Save your money and get a good deal on the MP10.

(Incidentally, I'm not sure how you did your narrowing down, but you do realise that the MP10/11 is a professional stage piano? If you're neither a professional nor going to be using it for gigging, there's a good chance there would be better choices for you.)

James: I checked out the band in your You Tube link. Was that you on keys, on a Nord? Pretty nice playing. :-)

I would love to have either one and can afford either. Approximately 70 lbs., however, is too heavy for me (plus case = 80-100 lbs.?). With my investment in such a nice keyboard, I would want to be able to take it with me for casual gigging with musician friends. Pulling 90+ lbs. in and out of my car is a bit much. This is the only reason I would consider something like the Yamaha CP-4 (38 pounds) or even the CP-40 (36 pounds) over the MP11. Even the MP7 will probably weigh 45-50 pounds. I would rather have the MP7 over either Yamaha, but again, every pound counts.

Yeah! <-- That part always makes me smile.



Thank you! I'm not much of a player, but I have fun and that's the main thing.

Cheers,
James
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Hip Japanese crew you got there! Very cool.

Like it. Warm sound, cool vibe.

Thanks chaps!

More info in the original thread here, by the way:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2104090/all

Cheers,
James
x

@James, OT, I took up on your style with the fingerless gloves a few times (as seen in your video). Great idea! It's been a tough winter in New England. A few gigs were very cold and the fingerless gloves worked perfectly. You should brand and market them specifically to keyboardists. I think you might know a few things about marketing...

Fingerless gloves with a piano keyboard design - now that's an idea!

James
x

just watched your video for a few minutes. very nice.
very nice beginning for my day over my morning coffee. you play excellent James. your Sax player and me were both bopping along to your playing.
I was working on Elton John's Tiny Dancer on my CA65 with GF action, last night.
did soooooo much better, than I have in the past.
the GF action really is quite wonderful.

@Lolatu
Thanks for the sensible input!

Yes, actually, sensible part of me does question whether or not I am spending
too much on DP. In our case, it is a temp solution...in our moving every 3yrs
lifestyle, having more 'movable' DP until we settle down. Once we settle down,
maybe within 10yrs or so, we hope to own a real acoustic piano!

I was having this mind-set of DP being just like computers...they will have
updated version every 6months or a year... I had no idea their development
takes much longer! Its sorta comforting to know...its ok to like technology
thats few years old...(might not even considered to be 'old' in DP age...)

We did consider others like cabinet/console style DPs but didn't want
to think about possibility of getting damaged while transport and things like
that...so we thought maybe stage ones might be sturdier/make more sense to
us alternative...

I will probably go check the key action one more time and then decide which
choice makes more sense to us.

I appreciate your input! Thanks for taking the time...

What are the better choices? I'm no where near being a professional and wouldn't be taking it out to gigs but in terms of slab DPs am most interested in the MP series.

I realized when I first started looking into getting a slab DP that it's usually the stage pianos that have the most sounds with the highest quality and most importantly the best actions.

@pnbgnr8 you're welcome! Read the MP10 reviews online. They just say how great it is, and don't say they felt the keys were too short, or that it was OK but really needed another sensor. There's always something conceivably better, and whether it exists or not is immaterial. What matters is if the model you buy meets your needs and makes you happy. I'm sure both choices would do that - so get the cheaper one!

@Enthusiast Better choices depend on your preferences. Most home users will get a console type. Maybe something like the excellent Roland DP90 if you want it more stylish. It's not that much less portable than a slab since it easily disassembles into something resembling a large slab and a few bits of flat-pack furniture. If you really want a slab, then if you like Kawai, the ES7 might fit the bill. (Alternatives would be Roland FP-80 and Yamaha P255.) It's like half the price of the MP11, and has speakers, so you won't need external monitors, monitor stands, and maybe a mixer. You can also get a 3-pedal furniture stand for it. MP11 only has about 30(?) sounds, with no organs, so in comparison the ES7 has many more sounds this slab doesn't have more sounds than your average console (not that you really need more than about 5). But if you already have a home studio and lots of money, then the MP11 could work well as a controller. And the design is sexy.

You probably don't need the best action in existence. I don't know if you've tried any of the Kawai CA series, which have the same GF action as the MP11, but my feeling was that they're not that much better than either the RH action in the CN24, or the Roland PHA3/4 action. And while the feel nice, they are very lame when compared to the AvantGrands - which I say to illustrate the point that you should assess things on their merits rather than than looking ever up the food chain. People think that a wood action is somehow more authentic, but the GF action has just as much metal and plastic as any other - the only part made of wood is the key itself (not uncoincidentally the only visible bit). It's the geometry and weighting of the action that makes the difference to how it feels - not to any great degree, if at all, the material used. And it's not like the GF geometry is exactly new - take a look at a Fender Rhodes action circa 1984.



There are good reasons why DP makers moved away from such a design. Anyway, I'm digressing. I hope that was useful.

I hate to sound like the spec police, but the MP11 actually has 40 sounds (12 acoustic pianos, 12 EPs, and 16 subsidiary sounds), while the ES7 has 32 sounds (divided up into 8 categories). You are correct that the MP11 does not include any organs, however.

Cheers,
James
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I'm interested in a couple things in your post lolatu.
I played a CA93 for a very short time at a piano store. and then drove 30 miles to another piano store and played a CA65. I loved the action on both.
I thought they were both superb. I thought I was being smart to get the newer action in the CA65.
your last comment regarding DP makers moving away from GF geometry and/or design, makes me ask if you would please elaborate on that?

also, chances are that the OP is really choosing between 2 very fine Kawai options.
I like the GF feel enough on my CA65, that I would definitely recommend the MP11. (I was all psyched up to buy one, but then when they did not get released in the US at NAMM, I didn't feel like playing the waiting game, and got the CA65. a bird in the hand, maybe.....whatever.)
also, from my experience, sometimes in the gear holy grail search for the ultimate (say a piano made of the purest highest grade unobtainium known to man.......lol),
once you get to a certain point, its a game of inches.
you pay untold thousands more dollars for that last few percent of quality.
wow, just read for a second about AvantGrand. ouch. lotsa moolah.

Price and weight, I should think. Since regular DP's do not actually require hammer impact, as the rhodes did, you can cheap out and use the all-plastic designs we see around. I'm not saying Kawai's wood action design is the be-all-end-all, but has a lot of advantages that I can see. The only disadvantages being price and weight.

FWIW I haven't been that impressed with the AvantGrands I've played. I freed up a budget appropriate for the purchase of an N2 and made the trip to a dealer, but after playing it I decided that it was a step down from my current piano. I figured I was temporarily insane so I made a trip to a different dealer later and felt the same way. Even if the AG were free I'd probably stick with what I have. I mention this to illustrate that there can be significant variation on opinions about these pianos, which may not correlate with price.

Oops, I thought it had General Midi like the FP80. Thanks for the correction.

No worries.

Technically there are additional internal sounds, however these are used specifically for MIDI playback and are not selectable directly from the panel.

James
x

Hello gvfarns
I just wanted to add my opinion on this point as I currently own a AG N2 and a VPC1
I must say, I was very happy with my VPC1..since I got my N2
Now, I find the action on the VPC1 really not authentic compared to the N2, and I need time each time to readapt myself on it
But I can say that even if I find the RM3 action the best amongst DP (and I have tried lots), it cannot be compared with an AG
It is my personnal opinion, as I can also understand you prefer the Kawai action
Everything is a matter of personnal perception, but I cannot let people think that the Kawai RM3 & GF action can really compare to the AG action
The key pivot lenght is only a very small part of the equation...
By the way, VPC1, MP11 are really good DP, and have certainly better quality price ratio than the AG you get a really good DP for far less the price of an AG...but the AG...is another thing.

I really wanted to like the N2. I tested it extensively and assumed it would be for me. The action felt nice and I liked the aesthetics, but there were several deal breakers for me, including the way it sounded, the way the action mated with the sound engine and the poorly designed control panel. I would certainly take one for free, but I would choose a Kawai CS10 or Roland LX-15e over the N2 regardless of price.

Agreed Enzo. Now to get back on topic, I definitely concur with the latest thoughts on the OPs prospective piano purchase. By the time you have decent monitor speakers, a worthy stand, separate pedals not to mention the MP11 itself, which is very sizeable, you are going to be less manoeuvrable than you would be with a console style DP (where you remove the slab from the stand when you move it).

Please elabourate on other features of the MP11, beyond its action and its ...huhmm... "Portability" that you are drawn to. Someone recommended the ES7 as a good sized DP for you. I would second that recommendation. Also you might want to check out some Roland pianos - the FP-7F for example. The tones are often preferred over Kawai's top end stuff.

Fun certainly you have, and you all sound great too!

jeje... Captain Pork and the Spice Boys??? Whose idea was that?

When I tried the ES7, FP-80 and P-155 I had issues with all of them and thought they were overshadowed by their stage piano big brothers. The ES7 slightly shallow keys, the FP-80 weak sound/speakers, the P-155 disliked the sound. The MP10's action felt the most realistic to me which was my primary concern at the time and my teacher agreed with me. The RD700NX (which is now going for the same price as the FP-80) had far more and better sounds including an AP which my teacher liked best and a great pipe organ that were absent from the FP-80. The price here of an FP-80 is only a little less than an MP10 (MP11 too if it's the same price).

If I were going for a console type I'd want something with a really good speaker system and they are far more expensive bigger and much heavier than even the MP11. Those ones like the CA95 I don't think can be disassembled either.

Since I may be getting more and more into music technology in the future the extra onboard controls, pitch bend and mod wheels of a stage DP would also come in handy.

I couldn't make my mind up at the time (summer last year) due to newer versions of those particular models I liked best looming imminently on the horizon. I got a cheap P-35 just to get started but will looking to do a lot more testing in the shops/practice rooms this summer and make a more premium long term purchase.

I should preface this by saying that I'm largely speculating... Besides the obvious weight, size, cost (not just of raw materials, but of the engineering required to make wood actions that are even and reliable), I think the following could have been important:

- in the 1980s when DPs were conceived, the sound really wasn't very close to that of an acoustic. The action wasn't the limiting factor in realism, and it was obviously a different instrument to an acoustic. So there wasn't much demand for expensive actions that felt and looked like that of an acoustic grand.

- the availability of reliable plastics meant that plastic key actions were possible, and this allowed designs that would not be possible with wood keys. I've taken a Roland PHA action to pieces and can tell you that this would not be possible with wood, because wood isn't as durable and mouldable as plastic. Basically there's not much engineering reason to have the former design, when you can make one with similar performance in less space, by using better materials.


Agree completely. And why pay through the nose for those inches when you're still several yards from your target?

You should probably stop trying the expensive models and be happy with what's available in the mid range! They're perfectly good enough for thousands of aspiring pianists. Of course there's always better if you want to spend a fortune, but don't let that make you unhappy with the cheaper ones. If you can't be happy with anything less than "the best", you probably have psychological issues and would be better off spending the money on some counselling...


Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


Perhaps, although you can get little dedicated controllers that you can sit by your music rest if you need that.

thank you for your reply.
all of this is a fascinating subject. the design and evolution of the sound and touch/feel of keyboard instruments that are powered by electricity.
it is so interesting to read about other people's opinions and experiences with what is available now.
if I compare what I have now, to what I had 25 years ago..............man, loving life here!!!!

Why would I buy something if I'm unhappy with it and find the more expensive models to actually be better and have a budget that can cover them? That is the point of going into the shop and testing them. I was still new to piano when I got those impressions but did go straight from playing on 2 different APs (Kawai upright and then a Yamaha Grand) to the shops on 2 occasions. I took my teacher along for another more experienced opinion and her impressions pretty much matched my own.

In the end I got the cheapest DP I could think of with a decent action the P-35 and left the more expensive purchase for later when I can make a better decision and have a better choice.

It's not a psychological thing about the price either since I didn't like the sound of the Avantgrand I tried a few months ago when I last visited a shop. I much preferred one of the piano samples on a CVP to any of the other Yamaha DP's in that shop. The action of the AG felt far more realistic though.

The £1500-1800 stage pianos I'm considering are a long way from being the most expensive DPs. This would be a long term purchase too so I have to look ahead and importantly be satisfied with what I've just tested.

Slightly condescending?

It kind of came off that way to me, too. But I am of the opinion that someone should buy as good a piano as they can reasonably afford. That is because it can be so inspiring to be on a good quality instrument, and it can be very, very frustrating on something that you have to fight, or doesn't respond the way you want. Settling for less just because you're a beginner or will never be a concert pianist is pure rubbish, IMO.

I'm pretty much a beginner and have a Casio PX-850. It's hooked up to a computer with three virtual pianos whose sound is excellent (Galaxy Instruments Vintage D is my favorite). With Rokit powered speakers and woofer, the output is very nice. But...

As I'm progressing, I'm noticing the limitations of the PX-850's keyboard action. I wouldn't notice except that I'm fortunate to take lessons on grand pianos at a piano store. Niiiiice! And then there is the CA65/95...

I had a chance to play a CA95 and was simply amazed with the Grand Feel keyboard action. Even a beginner like me could feel the difference. It was love at first (Grand) Feel.

So I've been looking... I don't want a CA65/95 because of the size and cost. The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide) and it doesn't have the Grand Feel keyboard.

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size, has Grand Feel, and the price is not exorbitant. BUT... It's a stage piano. With an enormous number of bells and whistles that a pro musician can use.

Yes, I know it's serious overkill for my needs, but I have to ask: Is it even remotely reasonable use this as replacement for my PX-850 where it will sit in one place pretty much permanently?

Thanks,

Dan.

Interesting. I was lloking at the Casio range when deciding what to buy, recently. I was not happy about the keyboard despite most folk here thinking it was good. Good for it`s price, maybe. But the dreaded black notes tell their own story if you have long fingers.

I`m waiting for Casio to do the decent thing. New keyboard . . . . for nice, long pivot point. It`s got to happen soon, other manufacturers are dreading the moment it does. I`d wait a bit.

In your opinion, does the PX850 live up to the promotional videos soundwise? Because I`ve never heard a better piano at any price.(imo)

PX-850 sound is quite good. That is until you use virtual piano software and good powered speakers. Then it's no contest.

Dan.

Special snowflake? What kind of BS is that? First of all, whether it be keyboard or cars, if someone has the resources and wants the best, what is the problem? You don't need to be a pro to appreciate and enjoy a higher end instrument.

Second, sticking a pair of monitors at the end of your console isn't going to give you what higher end consoles like the Yamaha Ns, Roland LX-15e and Kawai CS10 give you. In fact, if you try to run monitors and your internal speakers at the same time, it might sound like crap.

Please note that both the VPC1 and MP11 are the same width at 138 cm.

Cheers,
James
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Lets try to look at it this way. The higher end DP's are no where near as costly as a decent AP. Also the higher end DP's are only "decent" as compared in the AP world.
Before I started actually playing. I thought the low end DP's should be good enough. I was disappointed. Then the mid range are a trade off compromise. Now were getting everything better.
I think we've lost focus ever thinking buying a high end DP is "special". It's dirt cheap compared in the AP world. If you can afford it. As a beginner, you'll be better off in every way.
I'm very thankful to the DP world. Without it I couldn't play.

I agree. There is nothing wrong with buying the best piano one can afford, and I would argue that buying less simply because you are a beginner can result in losing interest from playing on something that is uninspiring. I also think, you're going to spend $1k on an instrument that you know you will need to upgrade in a year or two, and then fork over another $2-4k, then why not take the plunge and get something you can stick with for years? If you can manage it, that is. I'm not recommending one get into financial troubles over it.

I'm very glad there are DPs at the low end of the spectrum. Many of my students can't afford/have no room/have sound concerns with acoustics, and so a low-end or even used DP is a great option for them. Hopefully they are able to upgrade in the future, but that isn't always possible.

Yes exactly this is something that came up with my teacher of the time, that incremental updates might end up costing more in the long run. And I know from playing on much higher quality instruments and using software Pianos how much more enjoyable it can be.

When I first started I was using an unweighted 61 key keyboard with no stand or even a music rest. I kept trying to get by on that and delay when I'd get a DP. I had a couple of lessons on grands (Yamaha S4 and C3) and it was quite a contrast to say the least coming back to that setup I had at home. I then moved onto a P-35 with uncomfortable X-stand. Now with new models coming out and older versions coming down in price I'll spend a bit more and hopefully get something I'll be happy with for many years.

There are lots of people who just buy whatever piano is cheap and available and think nothing more of it---they don't need the best. Those people don't tend to hang out in digital piano forums. People here are more likely interested in the best or at least the very best that can be had on a given budget.

I often see people say stuff like "you should stop researching pianos and just go play what you have" but that's kind of the opposite of what we do here. So there's no reason to say it.

James,

Thanks for clarifying this. For some reason, I thought the VPC1 was 57 inches wide. So both would fit the space I have available - 54-3/4" wide.

Now about the MP11's Grand Feel keyboard...

Dan.

Apolgies for any jimmies rustled! I probably phrased it badly.

Many interesting points raised... sorry I don't have time to respond to them all. So I'll just say that I would strongly disagree with the idea that you should spend as much as you can afford, on a DP or anything else for that matter. First, because it's not a useful guideline (what proportion exactly of my savings should I spend? surely not the whole lot?), and second, because it makes far more sense to spend as much as you need to, and not a penny more. Of course, how much you need to spend depends on a lot of factors, including what you're going to use it for (professional, or learning to play Twinkle Twinkle), what you can get for what amount of money etc. If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it? But many people don't even need that level of sophistication, regardless of how much money they have. In short, buying things that are overspecified for your needs is really wasteful. If you still need something to spend the remaining money on, I can offer suggestions!

Firstly, I have no jimmies to rustle.

Secondly, when you pay for a higher-end instrument, you also get better basics: a better sound, a better action. Sure, you get more bells and whistles that you may never need, but a manufacturer has to broaden the market to ensure greater sales. So often there will be overlap between the professional gigging musician, the music teacher, the adult beginner hobbyist, or the amateur advanced pianist.

I had to grow up learning piano on a spinet that had some sentimental value to the family - and that's the only value it had. While most of the keys worked, it could not be tuned because the frame was cracked, many of the low notes were little more than a "clunk", the only way one could coax a legato from the damper pedal was to employ that and the sostenuto pedals simultaneously...the list goes on. Needless to say, practicing was extremely frustrating even as a beginner, and uninspiring. I know that we are talking about something in disrepair and not simply something low-end but in full working order. But any time I could get I would gravitate to a piano and play it until those with me got annoyed and pulled me away - whether it be in a hotel, shopping mall, a stage, whatever. It was always such a pleasure to be able to play something that did what I heard in my head, something that actually responded rather than arm wrestled.

Another anecdote comes from many students over the years who were trying to learn piano on a keyboard or DP that was uninspiring. The transformation that took place in their playing once they upgraded their instrument was night and day - even for beginners who did not have aspirations to become a professional pianist.

From these experiences, I contend that one should get the best instrument they can afford - with the caveat that I had previously stated, without putting themselves in financial trouble. Having the right tool for the job - a piano-shaped object with 88 weighted keys - is just a bare minimum. Some will only be able to scrape up enough funds for that. IF you have the disposable income to get more, then you shouldn't short-change yourself, especially since upgrading will be in the near future thus increasing your overall investment in an instrument.

I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.

I guess it's hard for m to see it that way because music is so important to me. I suppose if it were about something I didn't have a lot of care for then I could agree.

Jimmy-wise, I'd say that comment has high rustle potential...

@lolatu, it's a bit of a straw man argument to criticize buying a piano that's not the best for a given budget or to say one shouldn't spend more than one can reasonably afford. I haven't heard anyone advocate those. Everyone has an amount they can reasonably spend on a piano given their financial situation and the importance they expect the piano to play in their life. Within those constraints, they should get the best piano they can, which may not be the most expensive one. When people express tight budget constraints we recommend inexpensive models. When they express disappointment at the performance of models they have tried, we recommend higher quality models, which are typically more expensive. For DP fanatics, we discuss and often purchase the best there is available.

Digital pianos are expensive, but not *that* expensive. And they last a pretty long time. For that reason it makes sense for people to do a lot of research and make sure they get one that will satisfy them. Recommending a medium or low quality piano for someone who has demanding requirements and can afford better would be silly.

These are just generalizations and reflect your own sense of value. There isn't any quantification being done, so I'm not sure how you figure out whether or not one has attributed enough value to "inspiration."

I don't think the rule of thumb should be get the "best one can afford," but I think trying to set some kind of line where everything beyond it is excess is silly.

Morodiene,

Well stated! I agree completely. In fact, I'll go further...

I do have jimmies and they have been rustled. I am a beginner. I'm 67 and started taking lessons again 14 months ago after a 60 year hiatus. And I need a better DP now.

I have a Casio PX-850. Bang for the buck, it's a good beginner piano. Based on what others have posted here, that should be good enough for my needs. Yes? Actually, no!

I take weekly lessons and am fortunate to take them on a good quality grand piano. I've progressed to the point where playing the black keys and 1/8 notes are part of my daily practice. While the Casio was "good enough" when I started, the keyboard is now a hindrance. The short black keys are annoying because of the short pivot length. The feel of the keys on the Casio is decent, but it doesn't have the feel of the grand, like the let up.

When I take lessons, I'm focused on certain musical issues for an hour. But I rarely get to play for enjoyment - it's a lesson. Which is frustrating because I would love to just play for the enjoyment. I had a couple opportunities to play some really magnificent grands - a $90K Sauter and 1904 reconditioned Steinway. The feel and sound of those pianos was nirvana. Almost impossible to describe. And then I have to go back to my Casio.

Whenever I get a chance, I try other DPs to see what the keyboard feels like. Only one brand and model knocked my socks off - Kawai CA65/95. The feel was like no other and very close to the grand that my lessons are on. The first time I tested it, I planned on spending maybe 5 minutes. 30 minutes later I stood up and then only because the salesman was staring at me. IMO, the GF keyboard is the best on any DP. It felt so good that it made me want to continue playing.

So far, this has been about quality and motivation, but there is another factor that makes a quality instrument very important for beginner - figuring out and working through your mistakes. Here's the rub...

Accomplished pianists can create music from most pianos, even mediocre ones. They may not enjoy the experience and can do better on a good quality piano, but they can quickly spot the issues with a poor quality instrument and work around them to some extent. I.e. they know it's the piano and not their technique.

Now consider the beginner's plight... Beginners make mistakes and struggle to overcome them. But after making a mistake on a mediocre piano, how much is caused the student and how much is caused by the instrument? And is the instrument blocking progress in resolving the issue? Yes, it is almost always the student, but how does the the student know that? For example...

While the white keys are OK on my Casio, I find the black keys more difficult to play. But I'm a beginner, so the issue is me. Yes? Probably, but how is that I do better with the black keys on my lesson grand? And why is it that the black keys on the GF key are easier for me to play?

The bottom line is that learning the piano is a struggle for a beginner. A quality instrument with a good keyboard smooths the learning path.

About the price...

Another poster asked, "If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it?" That's a good question and I agree with him. Unfortunately Casio has NOT come out with a CA-65 beater at any price.

IMO, the only CA-65 beater right now is the MP11, primarily because of the GF keyboard, smaller size, and reasonable price. The MP11 meets my requirements even if it's aimed at a different audience.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. A good piano teacher (like mine) is very important for any student. But the teacher is only there for maybe 1-2 hours per week at most. The student's piano is either helping or hindering the student's progress the other 166 hours each week.

Maybe, maybe not. I spent 10 years as a kid learning the piano - a spinet. I suspect the action was probably not much better than the short-key Casio. I came to no harm and when I'm confronted with most uprights I can usually get a tune out of them.

Would it be fair to say the GF action is 'flattering' of the pianist? I'm beginning to wonder.

Haha...I'm learning the chopin etudes (without a teacher) on a $500 digital piano. What do suppose happens when I post the videos showing you don't need those multi-thousand dollar digitals?

Flattering? As in ego-flattering? Strange comment. Is flattering an issue for you?

It's your choice to buy what you want. I certainly won't comment on how well your choice works for you.

I'm agog.

(although it's already been done - member of this forum a few months back played some brilliant piano on a P105....of course you don't need a top end instrument - you need musicality and effort. But I think everyone already knows that. Of course a better piano will be more enjoyable to play and probably last longer)

No. In much the same way as a photo might be described as flattering. It has nothing to do with ego.



It's either given or received. How can it be an issue?

I still don't understand the comment. A piano is just a tool. It isn't flattering.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

But we're talking about the MP11 here - an industrial-strength tool that looks industrial strength. Other than a couple of pieces of wood on the ends, it just looks purposeful. No one in their right mind would buy it just for the looks or to be flattering.

I'm considering the MP11 primarily for the GF keyboard. If Kawai came out with a lower cost model that had the GF keyboard but with less features, I'd buy that. A VPC2 with the GF keyboard would be perfect for me.

Dan.

A piano which, through its action or sound, makes you sound better than you are on the next piano could be described as flattering. It's like some music is more flattering than others: Chopin studies with lots of fast arpeggios are flattering (they can make you sound better than you really are to an uneducated audience) whereas most Beethoven Sonatas are the opposite: you have to work like the devil himself to get some of the most pedestrian sounding effects.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

This is an entirely different order of vanity and silliness, and nothing at all to do with the way the idea of flattery was used before.

Dan, by "flattering", dire tonic is simply saying that the action is so good, it can make the player appear better than he/she really is. Sometimes DPs do seem to be more "forgiving" of the pianist than real acoustics, allowing them to gloss over poor articulation/technique without paying the same sonic penalty that an acoustic would exact.

Edit: sorry toddy, you beat me to it.

as toddy & voxpops have it, that's the gist, Dan.

dire tonic,

OK. My apologies. I took it the wrong way.

However, I still don't understand the comment in the context of the GF keyboard. If we we were discussing lesser quality DP keyboards, I could understand the issue. However... Since the GF keyboard is supposed to be very close to an acoustic keyboard, how could the GF keyboard gloss over bad technique? Shouldn't it expose bad technique the same as an acoustic keyboard?

Dan.

flattery will get you everywhere. hmmmmmmmmmmm.......lol

I played a bunch of dp's before I bought the CA65.

the one that felt the most like it could earn some flattery for me, was the CA65.
I actually felt/heard..... vividly imagined myself out doing gigs on it..........I sang and played my heart out on it.
I had a big songbook with me.
I played and sang songs with great gusto and verve and vim and vigor, that I had not done in years.
by the time I got done, there was no question in my mind. I must have one. I really liked it that much.
I have played instruments that were not as easy to play.
this instrument sincerely helped to bring my level of play up.
it is easier to play notes higher on the keys.
the action feels good.
is it perfect? um, no.
did it cost as much as the Steinway Concert D Grand at the music store, that I dream about. also, no.
do I ever have second thoughts, or wish I had waited and tried other dp's?
heck, yeah.
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.
but the one I got is great. it'll do just fine for now. indeed maybe for the rest of my life.
and maybe someday, somehow, someway, someone will actually flatter me about how good I sound on it. lol
(not gonna hold my breath on that one though. hahahhaha)

Seems like a reasonable supposition. However, I think a lot has to do with the interaction of the keys with the sound engine. My FP-7F had an action that was a delight to play, and seemed - in conjunction with the very responsive SN sound engine - to allow me to play more fluently than previously. However, transferring that to a real acoustic left me struggling a little. It was much harder to play one particular Yamaha grand, due to the much heavier action, and apparently more limited dynamics. Go figure!

Just a matter of HOW important I guess.
Other things in my life are important too, they compete differently for funds, time and space.
MUSIC is important to me, the INSTRUMENT not so much (within reason, I am not advocating junk).
I can enjoy playing on almost anything, it doesn't need a brand name.

We each have our perspectives and priorities, it would be irrational to expect them to be the same for everyone.

You can still do this. It's not a big deal. Not going to fill you with unmitigated regret that will keep you up at night. The AG has a real grand action, but not a perfect real-grand action. It certainly doesn't play perfectly in my experience and the sound is decidedly normal (not divine). You may like the AG but I think the most likely thing is that after trying it you will be happy with your CA95 plus the thousands of dollars you saved.

But he wasn't referring to grand pianos which are a world apart in cost and size but stage pianos which may or may not even be more expensive than the nearest equivalent home slab DP or console model.

For me It'll depend on the impression I get when I try the various DPs out, what my budget and goals are. He seems to be completely against home users that aren't professionals getting a stage piano. If a stage piano impresses me the most in a store is more convenient and not a lot more expensive why wouldn't I buy it if I could? In contrast there others here who think that only a grand will do, would turn their noses up at anything digital and that learning on one (no matter the quality) only ingrains bad habits.

@Dan Clarke
I'm a learner and have been noticing the stiffness at the back of the keys on my P-35 more and more as I've been progressing. If I have to stretch my hands at the back it becomes very uncomfortable. I tried the same thing on a Roland HP302 and it was much easier. On the ancient keyboard I used for the first few months this felt impossible. I too know that playing on an amazing instrument can inspire you to get something better for home use.

Speaking of that HP302 (tried in a class) I have to say I found the speakers on it quite strange and unnatural. I didn't get a lot of opportunity to try it but it sounded somewhat boxy. The other model we have there is a Yamaha CLP220 which I really didn't like the sound of although that was more the internal sound I think. I'd have to really like the speakers on a console model to get one and that might mean a model far more expensive and inconvenient than a stage piano.

That's pretty much the opposite to what I was saying! My argument was that they shouldn't spend money that they don't need to, even if they can afford it.


Here's where we disagree. If someone says they have $2000 to spend, but something with their desired specification is available for $1000, I think we should recommend the $1000 model, rather than a $2000 model which may be "better" overall, but is overspecified for their needs.


Exactly! It should depend on their needs, not the amount of money they have.


Agree completely. Discerning customers with a lot of money should buy the high spec models, if that's what it takes to make them happy. But I think the mid-spec models are mostly very good, and perfect for the average person.

The specifics of what types we're talking about doesn't matter - we were debating the merits of "spending as much as you can afford".


I'm not totally against home users getting professional stage pianos, if that's what suits them best... it's just that stage pianos come with the additional hassles, mainly around monitoring, and in addition to the extra equipment, it's more difficult than you might think to make them actually sound decent. It would certainly be nice if DP makers made their console and slab models' UIs as friendly as their stage pianos, since most of them are pretty terrible. FWIW I think the MP11 looks like an awesome piece of kit, but it's not ideal for everyone.

thank you for that. (by the way, I have a CA65.)
thats really good to know though. I'm so easily led. a gullible green 56 year old. might partially come with the territory, oldest kid in the family, and all that rot.
what I read about the really expensive AG N3 (and N2 and N1), was mouthwatering though, I assure you.
what you say is really cool though. it provides excellent balance.
also, just want to say, I like the idea of "cry once".
if you're really into it, and its worth it to you, and you can swing it (I'm all for fiscal responsibility.......its called living within your means), go for it. get the darn sweetest axe you can justify, taking everything into consideration.

I've only once heard a DP on studio monitors which was in a music tech lesson and was blown away by the sound. By monitor standards they weren't particularly expensive either at around £200 and according to her weren't a problem to setup. I could probably get some help with that if I do go down that route. I can hopefully get a money back guarantee and try a few different ones in the room to compare. They may also be better suited to vst's too rather than internal speakers.

I can understand why stage pianos have more sounds and control options than home oriented slabs but why is it they seem to have the best sounds and actions?

Also how do others who have stage pianos exclusively for home use feel about them and their practicality and ease of use?

I think this is what I mean...it's not that a "lesser" piano will limit you - that is possible - but more that a great instrument will bring you to new levels you never knew you had the ability to achieve.

I agree with this.
a year ago I played a Steinway Grand at the music store. it was not the first time. but this time, was magical. I was astonished at how good I sounded. it helped to break me out of a very long frustrated rut, of not being happy with my skill level.
I can only speak from my experience. and to do so, I will tell of an analogy that I like. it sorta fits.
in hockey, Wayne Gretzky was so good, that he would bring up the level of play, of everyone else around him.
a good DP can do the same thing.
and everything's relative, it must be said. if I compare my current DP, with the first one I bought 25 years ago. hah!!!! the ones I have now.......this is like being in heaven.

There is also the notion that someone can be spoiled by playing the best instrument before they have "earned" it. I would say there is definitely some merit in that - you do not want to overindulge yourself and make your soul sick. Then you would be unable to play any lesser model and your spirit would not value the very musical commodity of restraint.

There are two counterpoints that I would make to this. First off is age. If someone is a young'un then I would say you should definitely not spoil yourself early, in any regard. (This does not mean play crap, but perhaps save the absolute best of the best until you feel you deserve it). However, if you are of an age where you are starting to feel that time is running out (to put it bluntly), then this avoidance of overindulgement must surely become secondary to the need to squeeze the tea bag in life and experience all that it has in store.

The second point is a question. Can we really become spoiled by any technology which has so far yet to go? What is the best of the best now will unlikely be the best of the best in 10 years. So you can invest heavily in the absolute best DP now and not be spoiled because there will always be technological advancements which arrive in time for the rewards of your broadened efforts.

It is really up to an individuals circumstances whether or not he/she should get the best piano money can buy.

So do you think your skills were flattered or was this the true minstrelman? Is there any risk that you might strive less to conquer a technical difficulty when it's all but masked by a forgiving action, those black notes played near the back of the key being 'good enough'? After all, GF doesn't eliminate the problem, it just makes it a little easier. GF might be the beginner's passport to an easier life.

I had a friend who used to go jogging with weights attached to his legs. Actually, he was a bit of a nutter but I understood the rationale - he was training.

Rappy, interesting thoughts. I agree very much with some of it. only thing I would add at the moment......(very foggy now, not enough sleep last night, up since 2:15 am......ouch).............is that in my experience, it can be the case, that someone who is not very familiar with keyboard instruments, might not even be able to tell when they are playing an instrument that has a superior action.
most notable for me, is how easy it is to play with control higher up on the white keys.
I can do things on the CA65, that I can't do on other instruments.
the thing has to be taken as a whole as well.
dire tonic, to answer your first question: yes. yes to both.
to the second question, imho definitely not.
I've been dabbling at tickling the ivories for many decades.
people with as little natural talent as me, need all the help we can get.
this is the way I see it. I respect very much, if you see it differently.
I have guitars that are very hard to make certain chords on. I do not have giant super strong hands, nor super coordination.
ease of playability on a guitar, is one of the most important feaures. just like piano. imho.

That's definitely another dimension that plays into instant gratification. Reverb, for example. Do all DPs with on-board sounds fire up their default grand piano with reverb on? An irresistible temptation. And how many piano students will turn it off?

"..I sounded wonderful!, I must have it!.."

I don't believe that for a second....although I have been known to just hit the demo button and play air piano in front of naïve guests.

hahahahahahaha......you are so funny man.
hey thanks again for all the super generous help, when I was figuring out what to do for computer stuff for making software piano programs work.
you rock, man!!!!!

- no problem - although I think you opted for a different solution...hope it worked out!

thank you man.
right on. I did opt for a different solution for my HP laptop.
that said, you taught me alot. I am sure that I will be using stuff that I learned from you, on other computers, in the future.

This is a very good discussion. I agree with some points and not with others. Regarding "need", I think this should be extended into needs, wants, and constraints.

My constraints are significantly different from many in this forum. The first is age and time. At 67, I'm still a contract software developer and work between 50 and 60 hrs/week. That means the clock is ticking and that I don't have many spare hours in a week to achieve my musical goals.

OTOH, after several decades of hard work, I've reached the position where I can spend a bit more to get what I want. I could squeeze out the cash to buy a decent grand piano. But it does not meet my needs and wants, I can't justify the expense, and most importantly, it won't fit in our house without throwing out a lot of furniture.

For needs and wants, while I gratefully accept other's opinions when trying to figure out my needs and wants, only I can make the final determination. I respect another person's right to their needs and wants, and expect them to return the favor.

Regarding the MP11, it's the right size for me and has a great keyboard. If the MP11 has great piano sound, that's nice but I wouldn't buy it for that. I already have studio monitors, and three virtual pianos and two DAWs running on my music workstation. My setup already produces good quality sound - better than several of the cheaper grands I've tried out.

Ulimately, the key benefit for me is the GF keyboard. The majority opinion seems to be that GF is the best DP keyboard available. If it has a lighter touch, that's better for me because I have arthritus in my hands. So...

Is the MP11 worth $2,800 just for the GF keyboard? For me, I think it is. If there is a less expensive model with the GF keyboard, I'll buy that. Anyone know of one?

Regards,

Dan.

I think it is, too. I don't know of anything out there cheaper with the GF keyboard, but if you can't afford the MP11, definitely go with the VPC1. Or wait until the MP11 has been out and see if anyone sells it used (doubtful :D).

Morodiene,

I can afford the MP11. To me, it's reasonably priced, small footprint alternative to an acoustic piano with some nice features besides the GF keyboard.

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)

Regards,

Dan.

Haha, you may have to give her a blank check on some shoes and an outfit in exchange.

I have a question about the MP11 and the VPC1. How's the mechanical noise of the action itself? Do these models suffer from the same loud "clomping", "thumping" and "clacking" noises that plague almost all DPs? (I have a Yamaha CP33, fine for stage use but I consider it unplayable at home because of the action noise.)

There is still action noise on the VPC1 but I found it was a lot less than what I experienced with my Clavinova. That one was quite audibly 'thumpy' and yes it can be really annoying to people under or around you.

I think its hard to decrease it to nothing without compromising the action. A real piano would sound quite loud too if the sound was turned off.

My god. If a man said this there would be sexism allegations. It's like saying maybe Dan should show his wife who's boss and just get the damn piano!

Anyway Dan, I hope we have helped affirm your decision to get the MP11. It seems that this is the only piano which meets all of your requirements and you can easily afford it.

Wait.... you're not the OP? I guess there are a lot of people making this same decision. Well, whatever. Clearly you all should get the MP11 cos that's what you really want and you wouldn't even be thinking about it if you couldn't afford it.

Dan, with regard to small footprint, authentic action, and cost not being a major concern, you could also consider the DU1E3, the NU1, the N1, and the N2

Dan:

Amazon link 1

Amazon link 2

Haha! I was trying to keep it PG-13. Anyone who's been married a while knows this trade-off sort of thing happens all the time. Everyone gets what they want ultimately, so no harm, no foul!

Of course there is some noise, but you don't hear it over the sound coming out. It is far quieter than most Yamahas and my Roland. It's the percussive nature of the instrument, but I understand it can be excessive in some digitals. If you play it without sound you will hear the noise, for sure. But it was nothing that I could notice having the volume at a normal level. If you play with headphones, anyone in the room will hear the action - as on any DP.

Linky 2 sounds like a good option, but Linky 1 is surefire winner!

A couple of days ago I spent nearly an hour playing a small K Kawai grand in a practice room and then went straight from that to a CA95 in the same store. I found the CA95 felt too light and easy to play in comparison to the grand. It was a bit of a disappointment. I remember when I had my first lesson there last year on an upright and then trying it afterwards and feeling underwhelmed considering the hype. I also had a feel of the let off on the grand which felt more pronounced compared to the CA95. Maybe that's actually a good thing though.

Something I've noticed from playing a couple of different acoustics is the that the keys have a slightly mushy gloopy feel as I push down (more noticeable when playing softly) and will return as if their coming out of that mush. It feels like I'm pushing down into something. On the CA95 and nearly every other digital I've tried that's not the case. It feels like I'm pressing into an empty space and the key returns in a different way. Slightly faster and more springy.

I went from that store to another and tried out the MP10 and that immediately felt better to me. More weight to the keys and the only digital that felt a little gloopy like the acoustics I'd tried. The keys on the MP10 though felt a bit stiff at the back. Grand Feel at the back is more comfortable to play and in that sense seems more realistic. I also tried a CA15 and though their supposed to have essentially the same action didn't quite feel the same as the MP10. Also briefly tried the Roland FP-80 which felt very hard but again different to a console model supposedly sharing the same action (LX15 which felt not so hard).

Yesterday I played on a Yamaha upright for about 20 mins and again there was that sensation that I'm pushing down into a light mush. It sounded clearly better than anything I'd played recently including the grand.

I might consider going for the MP10 over the 11 if it comes down a lot in price or the VPC1 but I'll want to do a lot more testing before committing and actually try the MP11 as well as others like the RD800 and CP4 when their on display.

Would be nice to hear more on RM3 vs GF compared to acoustics from those who've played on both.

Hmmm, I think what you are feeling here on grands particularly is the effect of a lot of inertia in each key/action/hammer. The overall mass of the key, action and hammer in a grand is far, far more than in any DP. Gravity is also working against the massive and long hammer. This all means that you have to add a considerable amount of force to the key initially to overcome the resultant inertia. Once the whole setup is moving that inertia can be transferred as energy to the string without much additional work on your finger's part. In short, if you mapped finger pressure as a function of time while hitting a note, the graph on an acoustic grand would look far different than on almost all DPs; perhaps the Yamaha N1, etc. might be exceptions.

I really miss this high inertia feel of an acoustic grand when playing DPs.

One of the lightest pianos I've played in my life was an Steinway D. I don't know if it is related to regulation, or with the big sound you get easily... anyway everyone likes a different weight. (I prefer light actions)

I found that gloopy mushy effect of the keys also very noticeable on the upright too. I expect it is as you say common to all acoustics. When I had to go from practicing on a Roland HP302 (PHII action) in my piano class to the Yamaha upright there (without a chance to adjust) that was the thing that really threw me off.

Looking at the opinions on here of GF vs RM3/RM3II there seems to be quite a division. The MP10 had something of that feeling of pushing the key into mush which was quite unique from the digitals I've tried. I'll want to look into that more when I get the chance.

I don't know how important the 3rd sensor is that it lacks.

No, it isn't.

My experience is that among Japanese brands of acoustics (i.e. Yamaha and Kawai - more so with Kawai), the feeling of sinking into soft cushion is marked. Much more so than European brands, which feel more 'positive'. Maybe that's the mushy sensation you're referring to, the sense that the key sinks into gloopy cushioning.

As for inertia, manufacturers of the high-tier models strive to reduce it in their key actions. The ones with high inertia are difficult to play fast repeated notes on (momentum = mass x velocity ): you can see more lead weights embedded in the keys. Fazioli grands are favoured for their fast, 'light' actions, i.e. their low-inertia actions that allow light-fingered, rapid filigree playing and repeated notes.

Hello
Finally, I can see I am not the only one finding the GF action "too light"
I have a AvantGrand N2, and the inertia you describe is really there and I really like it (for me, the N2 action is even quite light compared to the upright action I take lessons on)
It make you feel the "real" thing behind your key and impact the way you control your playing.
All the AP I have tried behave like that, even the "lighest" one

Now, I am not sure it is mandatory to have such "feeling" to be able to perfectly control your playing.
Perhaps even the opposite: it is more easy to control your playing with an action like the GF action...
But, in my case, I need to practice on something more real/difficult in order to be able to follow my piano course.

Again ,GF action is undoublty a good action, but I don't find it is close to a real piano action..it is good by itself like most of the high end DP action.
Key length is only, only a part of the whole complex mecanism of an AP

So when will we see a VPC-2 based on the GF?

That might explain it then. So far my only experiences with acoustics have been with Kawai and Yamahas and that's influenced my perception of what an acoustic should feel like.

It seems the grade exams here are held on Steinway and Fazioli grands. I'll be looking to try out those when I get a chance.

DoReMi,

My apologies, I missed your post. These all look like great pianos, so I checked them out. Unfortunately all are too tall and too wide for the space I have available.

You can see my avail space in this post: https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1_Delivered_and_brief_o.html#Post2241953 . Anything wider than 55" or taller than 33" will not fit.

Thanks anyway,

Dan.

I saw subsequently the pics in that thread. That recessed space is so tight that it is IMHO a safety hazard heaving 71.5 lbs on a shelf (even if done with 2 people) you can’t jump away. Note, that most of the 71.5 lbs is on the backside of the keyboard, furthest away from your body when carrying that 18” deep keyboard into that recessed tight space.

I suggested therefore in that thread a rolling table. Prepare the entire setup (including all connections, mount a power bar under the table) outside of that recessed tight space and roll in. Lock the rollers in place.

doremi,

Your safety point is well taken and heaving the piano on to a fixed shelf which is only 10" below another shelf would be very difficult and probably dangerous. Where we differ is how to solve the issue.

A wheeled stand is a vialble option. However... AFAIK, there are no portable keyboard stands with wheels. Finding some sort of wheeled work table with the right height, width, and depth would be virtually impossible. Therefore, building a custom table would be the only option for this type of solution.

A custom table that you suggest is doable, but would take up space in that cramped niche. Another issue is how to stabilize laterally. Any option that I can think of would take up valuable knee space and/or get in the way of the mini tower computer. And then there is the issue of stability. At only 18" deep, it has the potential to tip over while you're moving it around. Overall it's a viable solution, but there are issues.

I believe the best option is a sliding shelf mounted to the walls. 16-18", 200Lb drawer sliders mounted to the wall will easily take the weight of the piano and allow easy access for installation and removal. Three advantages of this approach are:

1) It frees up space under the piano and makes access to the computer, cables and power much easier.

2) Making and installing the sliding shelf would be very straight forward.

3) The shelf will be very stable. Once locked down with some clamps, the shelf will not move or flex.

There are plusses and minuses to each approach, but at first blush the sliding shelf option has the most plusses and the least minuses.

Regards,

Dan.

Ya, I think if you can make the sliding shelf stable enough (and it looks like those sliders will work well), that is the best solution, and relatively easy to put together vs. a table stand on casters.

You could learn how to build a safe, stable, and space saving rolling table. A rolling table is far superior to a sliding shelf, but good luck whatever you do!

There is some good stuff in this thread (now looking at this I wonder if I responded to older posts?) I started playing piano this past winter, after messing with a guitar for 15-20 years. I tried to be 'sensible' and get 'only what I need to learn' and was quickly disappointed. I upgraded, once, then again, and still am not happy. Anyone could learn how to play notes with the first piano I tried. It made sounds and had hammer-action keys. That should be fine for a learner, right?

I read an interesting article somewhere that talked about using hand-me-down instruments for kids, and how that can subconsciously make them feel the instrument is not special, or not worth investing time/money in. Maybe that article was geared to sell instruments, but it has some merit.

Flattery? When I play a nice sounding piano (acoustic or digital), it IS flattering, to me! A sweet tone makes me want to hear more of it. It was the same for guitars. The better the sound and feel, the more inspired I am to play, express, and experiment.

The used old Casio didn't get a ton of play time, the less old Casio got only a little more. The new and upgraded Yamaha got a bit more, but it still didn't get me there. Since I've found the Kawai's at the piano store, I've been there a ton playing them and can't wait to get one in my house. I know I will play and practice more with a piano that feels and sounds right, to me.

So, I learned the hard way what I need to do - which is invest in a piano with the best feel and sound I can afford. I don't want to spend a ton of cash, but the instrument is incredibly important to me, and the feelings I get when I play a quality instrument are priceless, and they last into the rest of my day.

A consideration is MIDI and virtual pianos - if you're OK with playing through a computer, you can concentrate on the best action and not worry so much about tone. I personally want my piano away from the computer so I want a good tone.

Obviously you have to draw the line somewhere. I'll spend what I can afford, but make sure I keep enough money to cover an emergency or two. Unfortunately that limits me to the $2000-ish range I've been looking at, maybe a little more. Fortunately, the MP10 is a killer instrument at $2300 and the MP7 just came out (not sure of the price yet).

I wasn't thrilled about the looks and size of the MP10, but the more I hear it, the more it calls me. Now the MP7 is calling even louder (the XL tone generator sounds so full, rich, and detailed to my ears). I think I'd prefer the richer tone to the wood keys, especially since the RHII is as good as it is. Having to go without a piano for a few weeks could be tough, but I could use the time to rest a hand injury.

Can I have your views on the following:

Mp 10 (floor model) - $2260

vs

Mp 11 (in the box) - $$3610

thanks.

MP11 for sure! I haven't played the P10, but I do know the feel of the MP11 is GREAT, and the sound of the MP11 far surpasses the sound of the MP10, IMO. Ya, it's another $1400, but if you're going to spend that kind of money (and can afford to, of course), then why not go for it? I anticipate mine will last me many, many years to come, so you have to think this is a long-term purchase, not one (hopefully, at least) you'll be making every 3 years or so.

Kraft music has the MP10 for $2000. I don't know if they ship to Canada, but they should as they are pretty close to the border.

The MP10 was $2300 when I bought it. I could not justify the extra hundreds to get the MP11 (meaning I would have had to use a credit card). I thought I really wanted it, but since I got the MP10 I am more than happy.

You absolutely can not go wrong with either instrument, unless you are quite advanced and know you personally would benefit from the 3rd sensor. I have a feeling that population (in general) is pretty small.

Depends. As Morodienne says, on your own affordability of the MP11 which would be the preference, but then if that's a stretch it depends on what condition the floor model is actually in.

James - Is it possible to replace a key on any of the Kawai wooden actions? Thanks, Jeff

Yes, no problem - it just lifts out, like an acoustic piano.

Cheers,
James
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