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Posted By: Rhodie73 Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 11:12 AM
I haven't received my October issue of Keyboard yet, but I've heard that in addition to seeing MOXF6/8 ads there is also an ad for an upcoming CP4 stage piano. Can someone who has the October issue of Keyboard please confirm this. This would be great news if Yamaha finally updated the CP5 in a positive way!
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 12:22 PM
I did notice that Sweetwater no longer has the CP5.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 12:51 PM
Yup (as in Yes). Price, official introduction, when it actually hits the stores : all still a mystery ...

What I personally am really (!) curious about is how this affects the introduction dates of competing new products from the other brands , like Roland and Kawai. Will they jump in earlier than they wanted , because of Yammies new products, or still wait until current stock sinks below a certain threshold ? I hope for sooner releases - products must be ready for launch you'd expect, after such a long time since the previous major product updates (MP series, RD series).
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 03:10 PM
cool

we have a winner!
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 03:18 PM
Interesting. I thought that Yamaha had exhausted its ability to use irrational, confusing product numbers.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Interesting. I thought that Yamaha had exhausted its ability to use irrational, confusing product numbers.

They haven't even gotten gotten to the irrational numbers yet. Give them time. "Check out the new Yamaha CP-Pi today!"
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 05:06 PM
Unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat, RD-700NX will still be king.
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Yup (as in Yes). Price, official introduction, when it actually hits the stores : all still a mystery ...

What I personally am really (!) curious about is how this affects the introduction dates of competing new products from the other brands , like Roland and Kawai. Will they jump in earlier than they wanted , because of Yammies new products, or still wait until current stock sinks below a certain threshold ? I hope for sooner releases - products must be ready for launch you'd expect, after such a long time since the previous major product updates (MP series, RD series).


Thanks JFP for the confirmation! I really am interested to see what Yamaha does with this one. The CP5 is a great instrument, just a little too heavy and the Acoustic Pianos needed more work. The electric pianos are stellar!

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I did notice that Sweetwater no longer has the CP5.


I checked and noticed that too. I suppose we will find out by the end of this month hopefully. If there is already an ad for the CP4 in an October issue, there should be some announcement this month.
Posted By: Scott Hamlin Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 09:07 PM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 09:17 PM
So, no CP6?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 09:21 PM
Here's a little exercise: think of the major things that irritated you about the CP5. Then imagine what a listening manufacturer might do about them.

Btw, nice kitty pic, Plinky88! wink
Posted By: Scott Hamlin Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/03/13 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Here's a little exercise: think of the major things that irritated you about the CP5. Then imagine what a listening manufacturer might do about them.

Btw, nice kitty pic, Plinky88! wink


Just happy someone let that poor cat out of the bag! [Linked Image]
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I haven't received my October issue of Keyboard yet, but I've heard that in addition to seeing MOXF6/8 ads there is also an ad for an upcoming CP4 stage piano. Can someone who has the October issue of Keyboard please confirm this. This would be great news if Yamaha finally updated the CP5 in a positive way!


I received it today. The ad for the CP4 with Chuck Leavell is on the second last page.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 02:26 AM
Dare I say it? Pics or it didn't happen.
Posted By: jarosujo Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 04:38 AM
I don't have big expectations, it's Yamaha. Marketing/Cost control department has been winning over R&D for quite a long time...
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by jarosujo
I don't have big expectations, it's Yamaha. Marketing/Cost control department has been winning over R&D for quite a long time...


Well there might be just one or two interesting new things but your mostly correct ....
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 03:18 PM
Well , the specs are almost always repacked and refilled familiar soundsets of the brand (same goes for Roland etc) ; what makes it interesting for people gigging is : size, weight , price, overall usefulness of sounds and hardware. So even if a product is not revolutionary in any way, improvements that can make the live of a musician more easy and fun will still sell the board to the public, no matter what.

Recycling , repackaging , stepwise improvements (or even cutback in features as we've seen several times these years); all nothing exiting or new. Whenever you are in need of another board though , you're still happy at least 'some' details have been reworked for the better.

IMHO real interesting stuff will most probably come from small startups and not from the well-known brands that sit comfortably on their butt in this marked.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 03:39 PM
Weren't the two biggest knocks on the CP5 the size / weight and the ( initially, without reading the manual first ( sometimes multiple times ) ) non-intuitive user interface? Have they fixed those with the CP4? Or is it a different animal / niche altogether?
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 03:52 PM
Weight : yes, Size: maybe, Interface: nobody knows (yet)
Posted By: p120player Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 03:52 PM
Could somebody maybe paste the ad so we can stop speculating about the features? Thanks in advance!
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 07:51 PM
The Ad reads

CP4

- 45 Premium Grand pianos including the CFX, CFIII and the S6
- 47 Vintage electric pianos (tine, reed, DX and original CP80)
- 341 Voices including Basses, Clavs, Organs, Strings and Pads based on our flagship Motif
- 62 Virtual Circuit Modeling effects, Reverb, Chorus, Master 5 band EQ and Compressor
- Easy Splits and Layers with large lighted buttons
- 88 Note Graded Hammer Wooden Key Action with Synthetic Ivory tops
- Slim, elegant lightweight (38.5 lbs.) design for portability
- FC3 foot pedal for half damper and sound board resonance included

Though I would think it is not 45 or 47 different pianos/EPs but rather presets.

I love my CP5, I think the sound and feel are just what I am looking for so I am quite excited about this new board, even if it is a rehash of existing technology - the fact that the weight is down below 40 pounds is it's best feature. Psyched.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 07:59 PM
Thanks for posting, RonL.

This board could be a real winner: most of the virtues of the CP5, but without the weight, bulk, or operational difficulty, and with new piano samples as the icing on the cake.

Would I trade the NP or SV-1 for it? I don't know, but I might be tempted if it lives up to expectations.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 08:25 PM
In addition to what RonL posted...

They call it "simply the best stage piano Yamaha has ever made." I'm not sure where that leaves the CP1!

No mention of SCM

From the picture, it appears to be closer to slab piano dimensions, not as deep as the CP5. Panel control arrangement looks simplified, more reminiscent of the MX than the CP5. It has pitch AND mod wheels (not just pitch like the CP5), and the wheels are above the keys instead of to the left of them, so the board should be less wide as well. And something I always wish for... the controls and the *display* are all at the front of the panel, right behind the back of the keys. You should be able to place the front of a 61-key organ/synth board on the back of the panel and have minimal distance between your 88 and 61 keys.

* quoting: "Most importantly, an easy to understand interface with large lighted buttons for splits and layers"

So yes, dje31, it looks like they addressed size, weight, and interface!

This is a couple of pounds lighter than the Nord Piano 2, which seems to have become something of a go-to model for those who really like the 50+ pound DPs but can't deal with the weight. I think the Nord may be squeezed by this one, as someone looking for this kind of professional calibre DP will now have an alternative to the Nord that will be lighter, probably better feeling, probably cheaper (I'm guessing it will sell for no more than the CP5 did).
Posted By: maurus Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
This is a couple of pounds lighter than the Nord Piano 2, which seems to have become something of a go-to model for those who really like the 50+ pound DPs but can't deal with the weight. I think the Nord may be squeezed by this one, as someone looking for this kind of professional calibre DP will now have an alternative to the Nord that will be lighter, probably better feeling, probably cheaper (I'm guessing it will sell for no more than the CP5 did).


... which might be a good thing as it would challenge Clavia to improve on the NP2. Or (dreaming) to finally put out a rack version of the NP.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Would I trade the NP or SV-1 for it? I don't know, but I might be tempted if it lives up to expectations.

Lighter weight than either of them, and more friendly design for stacking a second board above, and presumably much better split/layer functions than those boards, and pitch/mod wheels... and I think it's pretty safe to assume that the AP sounds are at least better than the SV-1 and that the EP sounds are at least better than the NP... and that it will have the best action of the three. We'll have to see where it is priced. But if it sounds at least as good as the Nord for AP and the SV1 for EP, I expect I'd easily take it over those boards. I'd be tempted to make it my bottom board except 38.5 lbs is still more than I want to travel with. I'm Casio-spoiled. But depending on how its weight is distributed and how the design lets you grip it, sometimes extra weight may not be as bad as you expect.
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by RonL
The Ad reads

CP4

- 45 Premium Grand pianos including the CFX, CFIII and the S6
- 47 Vintage electric pianos (tine, reed, DX and original CP80)
- 341 Voices including Basses, Clavs, Organs, Strings and Pads based on our flagship Motif
- 62 Virtual Circuit Modeling effects, Reverb, Chorus, Master 5 band EQ and Compressor
- Easy Splits and Layers with large lighted buttons
- 88 Note Graded Hammer Wooden Key Action with Synthetic Ivory tops
- Slim, elegant lightweight (38.5 lbs.) design for portability
- FC3 foot pedal for half damper and sound board resonance included

Though I would think it is not 45 or 47 different pianos/EPs but rather presets.

I love my CP5, I think the sound and feel are just what I am looking for so I am quite excited about this new board, even if it is a rehash of existing technology - the fact that the weight is down below 40 pounds is it's best feature. Psyched.


Thanks you for posting this! So far as long as Yamaha doesn't F$&k up the EPs that were already stellar and improve the APs as it seems (CFX sample) then this may be the stage piano I can live wih for a while. Reading those specs it really looks like the silent treatment from Yamaha was them getting their act together in the stage piano department and possibly more later next year.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 09:19 PM
The action has changed from NW-STAGE to GH, but it has an extra base piano sound set.
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 09:28 PM
fingers crossed on this one...moving the CP5 around is less and less fun every gig.

I forgot to mention the addition of the mod wheel...excellent, though it kind of looks like there are only two volume sliders (CP5 has four knobs) and I don't see dedicated eq knobs ( CP5 has five and I like them). For the record I don't think the CP5 is THAT hard to grok. It's an odd interface but I can get it to do the simple things I need to do.

I think Yamaha is making an effort to address all of the short comings and complaints from users on the CP1/5. I hope they don't screw up the action, though it could use just a little more throw to be perfect.

and to think I almost pulled the trigger on a Nord Stage or Nord Piano this week...time to holster that credit card for a bit.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
The action has changed from NW-STAGE to GH, but it has an extra base piano sound set.


That's a bit of a shame, actually. I have never used NW-Stage but the folks in this forum who do say it's a pretty great action. GH is fine but not exactly special.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
The action has changed from NW-STAGE to GH, but it has an extra base piano sound set.

It is a wooden action, so it is not their same old GH action. It could be the NW action, but graded (whereas NW has previously been balanced). Or some other kind of "in between" variation.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action

Nah it's just wood on the edges afaik, which is fine by me. Don't need to worry about humidity, etc.

The 700NX and the CP5 are only 1/2 pound different, but for some reason the CP5 is a beast to move. I guess it's harder to get a solid grip on it. I can't imagine someone dragging that around to gigs. The CP4 will be a welcome addition for them for sure.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action

Nah it's just wood on the edges afaik,

You have some inside info, something besides what's printed in the ad?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action, so it is not their same old GH action. It could be the NW action, but graded...

I think you are likely right on the money with that observation. That would address concerns over NW feeling "strange" to people used to graded, while keeping the virtues of a light but very precise action.

As to the apparent lack of SCM, that may mean that the EPs are not as inviting as on the CP5/1. It could be like Roland's "SuperNATURAL based" EPs which are, frankly, a bit of a letdown. I hope that's not the case.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by xorbe
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action

Nah it's just wood on the edges afaik,

You have some inside info, something besides what's printed in the ad?

The NW action is wood-lined plastic rather than solid wood.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 10:47 PM
Ah, anotherscott meant the CP4 has wooden action. I thought he was referring to NW-Stage. I haven't seen the ad. Confusion abounds! I guess the question is whether the CP4's GH "wooden action" keys are the same as the NW-Stage "wooden action" (wrt to wooden strips on plastic).
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by xorbe
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action

Nah it's just wood on the edges afaik,

You have some inside info, something besides what's printed in the ad?

The NW action is wood-lined plastic rather than solid wood.
Why? Can someone tell me why this would improve the feel?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by xorbe
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It is a wooden action

Nah it's just wood on the edges afaik,

You have some inside info, something besides what's printed in the ad?

The NW action is wood-lined plastic rather than solid wood.
Why? Can someone tell me why this would improve the feel?

Who said anything about improving the feel? But, in a world where appearances matter more than anything, it looks good!
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/04/13 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Who said anything about improving the feel? But, in a world where appearances matter more than anything, it looks good!

Now the 700NX with the light brown plastic is just for looks. You can actually feel the wooden edges on the CP5, not terribly useful I guess, but it's kinda cool and unique. At least it's a little something for that over-priced beast, haha.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 12:06 AM
Regarding the action, the CP4 would appear to be using a graded version of the 'NW Stage' action found in the CP1/CP5. I wonder how similar this is to the 'NW' action utilised by the higher-end Clavinova models - given the relatively low weight of the board, it's possibly a new action.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Regarding the action, the CP4 would appear to be using a graded version of the 'NW Stage' action found in the CP1/CP5. I wonder how similar this is to the 'NW' action utilised by the higher-end Clavinova models -

Seems like no third sensor, at least...
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 12:24 AM
True, it's not mentioned in the ad, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's been omitted.

James
x
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 12:50 AM
Wow, on paper, specs-wise, that looks like it ticks a lot of boxes. Let's hope the finished product lives up to expectations.

I'm still really happy with my CP33, but if it were lost, broken or stolen, this would likely be at the top of the list.

Heck, I'd be fine without all the extra 300+ synth / XM / XG / Motif sounds, since I have the XP-30. Maybe they have something like the next generation CP33 in the wings as well. I mean, it's only been on the market since 2006...better late than never.
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by dje31
Wow, on paper, specs-wise, that looks like it ticks a lot of boxes. Let's hope the finished product lives up to expectations.

I'm still really happy with my CP33, but if it were lost, broken or stolen, this would likely be at the top of the list.

Heck, I'd be fine without all the extra 300+ synth / XM / XG / Motif sounds, since I have the XP-30. Maybe they have something like the next generation CP33 in the wings as well. I mean, it's only been on the market since 2006...better late than never.


Not to get off topic but the CP50 is the replacement for the CP33, just like the CP5 is the replacement for the CP300, but they sold/sell so well that Yamaha never officially discontinued them.

As for the action on the new CP4 I really would like more info on it because I would assume that Yamaha would either use the NW (Natural Wood) or a reivised NW-Stage action found in the current CP1/5. The NW action is basically a GH3 with wood components added. While I always felt the NW-Stage to be a BH (balanced hammer) action with wood components. Neither has wood keys like the Kawai wooden key actions and the black keys are all plastic. I know this for a fact because I've opened keyboards with both actions. Still though I really don't care about that and am really interested in the shaved off pounds of the CP4. Hopefully it still has balanced outs, internal power supply, piano and electric piano customizing feature and mounts for the CP music rest. I find having a detachable music rest very convienent on stage.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 01:51 AM
I'm hoping it has the lighter feel of the NW-Stage (CP5) rather than the heavier feel of the GH (CP50), though of course it will still have the variation that it will be relatively heavier on bottom and lighter on top.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73

Not to get off topic but the CP50 is the replacement for the CP33, just like the CP5 is the replacement for the CP300, but they sold/sell so well that Yamaha never officially discontinued them.


Perhaps so, but, depending on price point, the CP4 could potentially be a replacement for both the CP5 and the CP50. Neither were huge sellers, and they had / have enough leftover 33s and 300s in inventory, making for five pro level stage pianos.

Three probably is / was the sweet spot, having a choice of good, better, and best. I can see them wanting to get to that model.

So they fire sale the 5, 50, 33, and 300, keeping the flagship CP1 ( maybe updated ), the CP4 in the middle, and a dumbed-down 4 in the vein of the 33, updated.

That way, they have the top shelf, pure DP in the 1, primarily living in studios ( against the V-P ). The 4 is the 700NX killer, all-in-one board, and another pure-ish piano-oriented stage board in the 33.1, for multi-board setups, against the 300NX.

Just spit-balling here, I have no insider info.
Posted By: RinTin Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 04:50 AM
It wouldn't happen to have built in speakers would it?
Posted By: p120player Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by RonL
The Ad reads

CP4

- 45 Premium Grand pianos including the CFX, CFIII and the S6
- 47 Vintage electric pianos (tine, reed, DX and original CP80)
- 341 Voices including Basses, Clavs, Organs, Strings and Pads based on our flagship Motif
- 62 Virtual Circuit Modeling effects, Reverb, Chorus, Master 5 band EQ and Compressor
- Easy Splits and Layers with large lighted buttons
- 88 Note Graded Hammer Wooden Key Action with Synthetic Ivory tops
- Slim, elegant lightweight (38.5 lbs.) design for portability
- FC3 foot pedal for half damper and sound board resonance included

Though I would think it is not 45 or 47 different pianos/EPs but rather presets.

I love my CP5, I think the sound and feel are just what I am looking for so I am quite excited about this new board, even if it is a rehash of existing technology - the fact that the weight is down below 40 pounds is it's best feature. Psyched.


Thanks so much for posting this. I love my CP5 too. However I was never too impressed with the NW keyboard. It was a bit too light for me. I areally look forward trying the new GH action out.

38.5 lbs sounds like wall wart to me.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
True, it's not mentioned in the ad, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's been omitted.

James
x


Same goes for the ES100 ;-)
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by rintincop
It wouldn't happen to have built in speakers would it?

No

Originally Posted by dje31
they had / have enough leftover 33s and 300s in inventory, making for five pro level stage pianos.

It's possible that they have just been keeping them around until inventory was exhausted, but it's also possible that Yamaha wants to keep them around to fill niches. The CP300 is still their only high end stage piano with speakers, the CP33 is still their only sub-$1k piano/controller combo. I guess what I'm saying is, if these were slow sellers, yes, they are probably only around until inventory is exhausted. However, if they have still been selling well, Yamaha may be intentionally keeping them in production, until they come out with a new model that truly replaces them in functionality.
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 02:04 PM
must know shipping date, getting weak, can't hold on much longer, gasp, gasp...;-)

And that's from just thinking about moving the CP5 in two weeks...lol

Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 02:47 PM
As far as I'm aware, there is a fairly short lead time on the CP4.
Posted By: Enthusiast Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/05/13 05:44 PM
I was in a Yamaha shop last week and tried out most of their digitals and was comparing their actions to the Avant Grande which felt very much like their acoustics. I wasn't that impressed with the actions on the CP1 and 5 in that sense and the NW action on the CVP 609 didn't feel as close as I was expecting (for it's price). The P-155's GH action really felt the closest and did impress me this time.

In terms of sounds, don't know why exactly but I didn't like most of them despite using my Sennheiser HD 558 headphones. There was crackling on one of the CP's. The studio grand sound on the CVP 609 was my favourite by far and may also be on the other CVP's too.

I'd really be interested in something with an evolution of the GH action and that studio grand sound from the CVP.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 04:34 PM
Info posted by a Yamaha rep in another forum...

On September 9th at 1 PM PST Yamaha's website and dealer websites will be opened with complete information, movies and interviews with artists.

The CP4 will start appearing in stores in the US around October 1st. The MAP price of the CP4 in the US is $2199.99.

It does feature Spectral Component Modeling . It is a Graded Wooden Hammer action (the CP5 was balanced so the weight did not change over the keyboard).

The CP4 Stage is the first pro stage piano to feature a CFX,Yamaha' flagship 9' Concert Grand. . It also has a CFIII and S6 pianos so the entire Yamaha Premium Piano Collection is represented. By the way, the S6 piano is very similar in design and part of the same family as the S700. It was specifically designed to have a warmer, more intimate sound than the CFX and CFIII.

At the same time we are releasing the CP40 , a baby brother to the CP4 which has fewer sounds (no CFX and one tine EP model). This will be a MAP price of $1699.99 in the US and replaces the CP50.

One of the biggest improvements on the new CP series is the user interface. It's very easy to understand and quick to get around on. We think people will really like it. There is also direct audio recording and playback to USB memory devices.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 04:45 PM
Boosh! Called it!

Nice price points as well.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:27 PM
Sweet. So is the CP40 going to have this graded wooden action as well? I'm quite curious about it as Yamaha doesn't come out with a new action just every day.

You should tell that Yamaha rep to stop being lame and hang out at PW instead.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Sweet. So is the CP40 going to have this graded wooden action as well? I'm quite curious about it as Yamaha doesn't come out with a new action just every day.

You should tell that Yamaha rep to stop being lame and hang out at PW instead.


Yeh, join the club and meet Mike and James ! If we could have equally good and involved people of all brands that would enrich the forum tremendously. Now Mike and James are representing Casio and Kawai very well , but the other brands seem completely absent. So if anyone knows this rep (and/or a similar guy from Roland) , please invite ; it would benefit the forum tremendously.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by gvfarns
So is the CP40 going to have this graded wooden action as well?

No. The old GH standby on that one.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
No. The old GH standby on that one.


Hmmm. Oh well. Until I can try the graded NW-stage I guess I can't say with certainty whether that's a bad thing or not. I do like the NW action in the higher clavinovas very well.

BTW I finally found that thread and resurrected an account I've had since who knows when. I wish everyone there would just come here so I could keep all my foruming in one place.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:52 PM
Can someone tell me what these sample sets mean exactly ? In which current Yamaha DP's can you find CFX , CFIII and/or S6 sample sets. E.g. ; what set(s) can be found in the CLP470 and 480 ? Also which is the latest (and best ? ) in terms of sample quality / layers and sustain lengths ? Yamaha just lists preset names in their manuals, by which it remains a mystery to me if it's CFX , CFIII, S6 with or without SCM or something else.

The CLP470 I tried sounded pretty good , but in the highest octaves , the sustain was very short and the looping jumps in early and very audible (almost a high static squeak when listening over headphones). I wonder if the CP4 will have the same sound, or if the promised SCM will rsolve the obvious looping in the high octaves.

Any Yamaha connoisseur knows ?
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 05:59 PM
For the most part the primary piano voice in Yamaha's pianos comes from a sampling for their CFIII acoustic concert piano and has for many years. For this reason Yamaha digitals of all levels have had a very similar tone to each other for a looong time.

Yamaha came out with a replacement for the CFIII, called the CFX (first use that I know of was in the 2010 Chopin Competition). It has been a very well-reviewed acoustic. A sample from the CFX was used for the first time that I know of in the NU1--the N1, N2, and N3 still use the older CFIII sample. Newer Yamaha pianos are likely to use CFX going forward. Like Kawai, Yamaha likes to sample from their own pianos in order to use digitals to advertise for their acoustics.

The S6 is a smaller premium piano in the Yamaha line. I'm not sure which digitals use samples from it.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:04 PM
So the current CLP line (like 470 , 480) uses the CFIII and the CP4 will presumably have a better piano on board with the CFX sampleset , right ?
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
So the current CLP line (like 470 , 480) uses the CFIII and the CP4 will presumably have a better piano on board with the CFX sampleset , right ?


A sample from a newer (and in most people's opinion, better) piano, yes. Whether the implementation is better than those in the clavinovas in question or not is something we will have to see. Based on what I have heard, the difference between CFIII and CFX sampling isn't huge. For example, people playing the NU1 and N1 side by side haven't particularly noticed a big difference in the sonic characteristics (through headphones).
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:38 PM
Yamaha owns Bosendorfer now, so maybe we'll see some of those samples in one of their DPs at some point.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Whether the implementation is better than those in the clavinovas in question or not is something we will have to see. Based on what I have heard, the difference between CFIII and CFX sampling isn't huge.


But if Yamaha throws SCM into the game , the sustain and audible looping will be history is my understanding. SCM is not part of the current yamaha DP line as far as I know, so the new CP could benefit from that in places where there are weaknesses now. Correct ? I hope...
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Info posted by a Yamaha rep in another forum...

On September 9th at 1 PM PST Yamaha's website and dealer websites will be opened with complete information, movies and interviews with artists.

The CP4 will start appearing in stores in the US around October 1st. The MAP price of the CP4 in the US is $2199.99.

It does feature Spectral Component Modeling . It is a Graded Wooden Hammer action (the CP5 was balanced so the weight did not change over the keyboard).

The CP4 Stage is the first pro stage piano to feature a CFX,Yamaha' flagship 9' Concert Grand. . It also has a CFIII and S6 pianos so the entire Yamaha Premium Piano Collection is represented. By the way, the S6 piano is very similar in design and part of the same family as the S700. It was specifically designed to have a warmer, more intimate sound than the CFX and CFIII.

At the same time we are releasing the CP40 , a baby brother to the CP4 which has fewer sounds (no CFX and one tine EP model). This will be a MAP price of $1699.99 in the US and replaces the CP50.

One of the biggest improvements on the new CP series is the user interface. It's very easy to understand and quick to get around on. We think people will really like it. There is also direct audio recording and playback to USB memory devices.


Thanks so much for putting this info out there! I can't wait to get the full details with pics on Monday. I sold my Fantom X8 and my RD64 because of other reasons, but I would be more than happy to pick up a CP4 next month.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I sold my Fantom X8 and my RD64 because of other reasons, but I would be more than happy to pick up a CP4 next month.

Rhodie, why no more RD-64? I recently picked up my second one having sold the first because of the limitations of a short keybed. I decided that, in the end, it was a tool worth having, despite the length.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:08 PM
Hey guys. Since Athan posted on KC, I'm assuming it's cool to go ahead here as well.. I'll just copy & paste my very un-technical first impressions of the CP4.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a sneak preview down at S.I.R. in Hollywood almost a month ago. I spent 20, maybe 25 minutes tops on it. It was running direct into a pair of Yamaha DXR10s. The sound was excellent.

The new CFX Grand sample is quite good and imo an improvement over the CF Grand in the CP5/1. It definitely has more presence and I think will be more versatile for all styles of music then the CP5. One thing that stood out for me was the sustain of the CFX....nice ! I'd have to have it next to the newest offerings from Nord ; Fazioli, Bright Grand & Bosendorfer, but I feel the detail was right there with anything on my Nord Piano 2. The S6 sounded much better then the CP5 as well.

Also in typical Yamaha fashion, you had a very even and responsive sound to action connection in all registers up and down the keyboard.

The action was heavier then the CP5 but again very responsive. It just felt *right*. This along with the even sound is something I've greatly missed the past year and a half.. wink

As much as I sang the praises of the CF Grand on the CP5, in louder rock situations, unless you used the Rock Bright Grand, I felt CF piano could take on an almost Roland-sque character. For me that's where things become too transparent and can be a little too *floaty* or vague in the mix (with the bass & drums), at louder volumes. This is my personal take on it so fwiw of course. I thought the CP5 was best at low volume, intimate Jazz quartet, trio, duo (acoustic bass/piano backing vocalist) contexts. Which was cool because that's basically what I do or try to do most often. cool Again I think the new CFX sample will be great for that in addition to louder rock scenarios.

Excellent build quality, no wall wart and holes on the front for the CP music rest. And the little bit I heard, when one speaker was disconnected for the infamous *mono mode*, didn't make me cringe. Again for comparison--at least as good as the Nord in mono.

Again, I only had a short time on it but first impressions were--what's not to like ? I'm pretty sure I'll be getting one when they become available.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:21 PM
Thanks for posting, Dave. Nice to be free at last, I suspect! wink
From reading the back and forth with Athan, it seems like Yamaha have really tried to address all the major concerns that most stage piano users have. If it sounds as good as it sounds(!) it will be a real winner.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:22 PM
Well , a bit heavier keys is better IMHO. I found the CP1/5 keys a bit on the light side of the spectrum.

Your first impression sounds good: if it lives up to the expectations it mustered so far, it'll sell like hotcakes I guess. Suppose the competition is not waiting on the sidelines and already has their new competing products ready for launch. Question is when. If Yamaha can deliver from early October they have a nice headstart !

Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I sold my Fantom X8 and my RD64 because of other reasons, but I would be more than happy to pick up a CP4 next month.

Rhodie, why no more RD-64? I recently picked up my second one having sold the first because of the limitations of a short keybed. I decided that, in the end, it was a tool worth having, despite the length.


Yeh I still think its a great tool for certain situations but I was getting rid of my Fantom and decided to clean house and get some extra cash for an all in one "gigging" keyboard with very few limitations in terms of the sounds and features that I need. I came very close to purchasing a Nord Piano 2, but glad I waited!
Posted By: david_ka Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:25 PM
Maybe I´m wrong but I think the S70/90XS use the S6. I havn´t tried it so I don´t know how it sound.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/07/13 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Yeh I still think its a great tool for certain situations but I was getting rid of my Fantom and decided to clean house and get some extra cash for an all in one "gigging" keyboard with very few limitations in terms of the sounds and features that I need. I came very close to purchasing a Nord Piano 2, but glad I waited!

Yes, I'm tempted to do some "house cleaning" as well!
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 02:33 AM
Hi,

Sorry we haven't replied yet as we just got off a red eye from Japan.

Here are some answers to questions that have been raised.

We did ask to have some information held back on the forums, but only until we could get information out to our dealers so they wouldn't be caught by surprise. The ad appeared a few weeks before we thought it would. So we are happy to provide information here now that dealers have been provided with the information they needed.

On September 9th at 1 PM PST Yamaha's website and dealer websites will be opened with complete information, movies and interviews with artists.

The CP4 will start appearing in stores in the US around October 1st. The MAP price of the CP4 in the US is $2199.99.

It does feature Spectral Component Modeling . It is a Graded Wooden Hammer action (the CP5 was balanced so the weight did not change over the keyboard).

The CP4 Stage is the first pro stage piano to feature a CFX,Yamaha' flagship 9' Concert Grand. . It also has a CFIII and S6 pianos so the entire Yamaha Premium Piano Collection is represented. By the way, the S6 piano is very similar in design and part of the same family as the S700. It was specifically designed to have a warmer, more intimate sound than the CFX and CFIII.

At the same time we are releasing the CP40 , a baby brother to the CP4 which has fewer sounds (no CFX and one tine EP model). This will be a MAP price of $1699.99 in the US and replaces the CP50.

One of the biggest improvements on the new CP series is the user interface. It's very easy to understand and quick to get around on. We think people will really like it. There is also direct audio recording and playback to USB memory devices.

If you have specific questions, we are happy to try and provide that information.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 02:40 AM
Athan, good to hear from you here. The additional info you posted on Keyboard Corner filled in quite a large part of the picture with regard to the CP4 - and it seems that a lot of people are very interested in this board (particularly performing players, of course).

I'm sure that many of us here would welcome a long term Yamaha presence on this forum, similar to the involvement of reps from both Kawai and Casio. We hope you'll stick around!
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 02:45 AM
Ask an ye shall receive.

So, I still haven't heard in either place whether either of the new stage pianos will have a triple sensor action. Are you allowed to say?
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 04:16 AM
We'll check with the engineers in Japan and let you know about the three sensors.
Not exactly sure and don't want to provide any inaccurate information.

It's Sunday in Japan so it might take a day or so.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 04:34 AM
Thank you Athan!

By the way, is it true that you used to play with Jerry Martini, former sax player with Sly & the Family Stone?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias



If you have specific questions, we are happy to try and provide that information.


Athan posts on the INTERNET ..... wonders never cease wink

Seriously good to see you about slugger ...
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


The new CFX Grand sample is quite good and imo an improvement over the CF Grand in the CP5/1. It definitely has more presence and I think will be more versatile for all styles of music then the CP5. One thing that stood out for me was the sustain of the CFX....nice !



so you liked it ? ..... phew wink
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 01:24 PM
Having seen the pictures again, the only thing that is odd to me and where I think yamaha may have missed a design opportunity is the placement of the pitch/ bend wheels. It's perfectly OK to have them above the keys, to be more in reach and reduce the length of the board. But they placed them above the rest of the control panel lane ?! So all controls are nicely put right above the keys in a very small row , so you can have the keyboard of a second instrument right on top. But then you cover the wheels andthe wheel are also in the way in case you want to place this second board as low as possible above the Yammie. Seems they didn't think this one through ? The wheels could have been placed more towards the keybed next to the rest of the controls and the display. Am I the only one thinkin that wold make more sense ? The whole top surface would then be empty for other gear and the wheels are even closer within reach.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 01:36 PM
Only Roland from the big guys without a representative here on the forums :P
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Having seen the pictures again, the only thing that is odd to me and where I think yamaha may have missed a design opportunity is the placement of the pitch/ bend wheels. It's perfectly OK to have them above the keys, to be more in reach and reduce the length of the board. But they placed them above the rest of the control panel lane ?!

Wheels often cannot be placed "right behind" the keys, because wheels need clearance beneath the panel (i.e. when you rotate the wheel, the part that "disappears" beneath the panel doesn't transport to another dimension, it needs space beneath the panel for its travel). So the wheel has to clear the back part of the keys that lies beneath the panel. (And at least on some designs, I think the keys pivot such that the part of the key behind the panel actually needs to go higher than the part that you see.)

As for their placement interfering with sitting the front of another board on top of the CP4 itself, I think the wheels are far enough to the left that the typical 61 should fit with no problem (and even 7x key keyboards, though not as nicely lined up).
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris


The new CFX Grand sample is quite good and imo an improvement over the CF Grand in the CP5/1. It definitely has more presence and I think will be more versatile for all styles of music then the CP5. One thing that stood out for me was the sustain of the CFX....nice !



so you liked it ? ..... phew wink


Well don't get me wrong, it's still an electronic keyboard, so.... wink

But yes I did like it, probably enough to replace the Nord at some point.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 06:26 PM
Quick mockup of what I mean. Makes more sense to me. If wonder if there is really less space above the keys in the front than further back. I thought the Yamaha mechanism was always facing downward. Pity if they could have done it in this way, but simply didn't cause they simply didn't think about it.... If it's technically not possible, I understand.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/08/13 08:50 PM
JFP, I'm disappointed that you didn't take the opportunity to also Photoshop your head into the Chuck Leavell shot. wink

James
x
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 05:48 AM
I didn't want to scare the forum members here.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Only Roland from the big guys without a representative here on the forums :P


Correct - as we have:

1) Casio - Mike
2) Kawai - James
3) Yamaha - Athan

So, who will it be for:

4) Roland - ?
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Only Roland from the big guys without a representative here on the forums :P


Correct - as we have:

1) Casio - Mike
2) Kawai - James
3) Yamaha - Athan

So, who will it be for:

4) Roland - ?

Korg?
Nord?
Kurzweil? (used to be Dave, he's not with them anymore)
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Only Roland from the big guys without a representative here on the forums :P


Correct - as we have:

1) Casio - Mike
2) Kawai - James
3) Yamaha - Athan

So, who will it be for:

4) Roland - ?

Korg?
Nord?
Kurzweil? (used to be Dave, he's not with them anymore)
Williamson? smirk
Posted By: Scott Hamlin Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by pv88


4) Roland - ?


Roland has a guy who works the Roland blogs.. he made a *brief* appearance in the KC forums.. somethingVallee?

Having "brand ambassadors" that talk one-on-one with customers or potential customers is something EVERY company (not just music mfg.) should be doing. Yes there are risks, but the benefits are immeasurable. I can't count the number of people who said they purchased a PX-5S due in large part to Mike's online presence.

Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Plinky88
I can't count the number of people who said they purchased a PX-5S due in large part to Mike's online presence.


I agree. I would add, however, that it wasn't just Mike's presence, but his willingness to offer ideas and solutions, come up with new patches to meet people's needs, and to engage openly (as much as is possible under corporate constraints), that made the difference, IMO. His personal investment in the product was tremendous, and it helped create a vibe.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 04:16 PM
Yeh, let's hope at the end of the day ALL major brands see the light and decide it's time to have their own Mikes' and James's present at each relevant forum. It will greatly benefit product development , customer satisfaction and in the end ...sales.
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 04:18 PM
+1000

Although I did not keep my PX5S, Mike was a large part of the reason I got one in the first place, when I posted that I did not like the piano sound he almost immediately had suggestions on how to improve it and how to update the OS. He is aces. And tireless on the message boards. There should be a separate Mike Martin appreciation thread. seriously.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 05:07 PM
I am not saying James made me buy a second Kawai piano in a row, because it would be a lie laugh But his presence on this forum and his very open nature of discussing things with everyone and the fact he's not biased towards Kawai and that he uses also a Nord product and has honestly expressed his appraisal of products other than Kawai has certainly made me believe in Kawai and yes, I bought a second Kawai board mainly because of that. Cheers, mate! smile
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 06:29 PM
to answer the OP: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? In my future: YES. Pre-ordered it this am. Looking at Mid to late October delivery. Anyone want to buy a CP5?
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 06:49 PM
It's for sale already, meaning a shop already carries it on their website ? Don't even find any mention of the CP4 on the Yamaha site(s) yet. Or simply haven't found it. Any links ?
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:26 PM
It wasn't on their website yet - I just spoke with them and they spoke w Yamaha rep - they are USA based so its not going to help international forumites. Good luck.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:29 PM
As of this writing, the US presentation / launch / media blitz is about a half-hour away. Anyone have a link to a webinar thingy?
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Don't even find any mention of the CP4 on the Yamaha site(s) yet. Or simply haven't found it. Any links ?

According to the post by the Yamaha rep, the info will be available on Yamaha's U.S. web site and dealer web sites as of 1 pm today Pacific time. So that's about a half hour from now as I type this...
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by JFP
Don't even find any mention of the CP4 on the Yamaha site(s) yet. Or simply haven't found it. Any links ?

According to the post by the Yamaha rep, the info will be available in Yamaha's U.S. web site and dealer web sites as of 1 pm today Pacific time. So that's about a half hour from now as I type this...


Yeah, I saw that as well...wondering if there was going to be a live launch online to amp up the hoopla.

They should have a countdown timer on the website...maybe they do, I haven't looked...

EDIT: well, I did a cursory look and didn't find diddly.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by RonL
to answer the OP: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? In my future: YES. Pre-ordered it this am. Looking at Mid to late October delivery. Anyone want to buy a CP5?



is $2199 MAP the list price or the street price? wouldn't or shouldn't you at least wait until you saw the market price on musiciansfriend or sweetwater etc? seems these things never sell at MSRP, although maybe the $2199 already reflects the "discount"....
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by bfb
Originally Posted by RonL
to answer the OP: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? In my future: YES. Pre-ordered it this am. Looking at Mid to late October delivery. Anyone want to buy a CP5?



is $2199 MAP the list price or the street price? wouldn't or shouldn't you at least wait until you saw the market price on musiciansfriend or sweetwater etc? seems these things never sell at MSRP, although maybe the $2199 already reflects the "discount"....


Well , I guess it's possible to pre-order and hear what the exact street price will be later on. As long as it doesn't overshoot the price range they predicted (announced ?) , it's pretty safe. Otherwise you can still cancel. At least you're first in line !
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:50 PM
Given the newness of it, the relative rarity / scarcity of it, how long folks have been pining for something new from Yamaha, and how ( potentially ) impressive its specs look, I don't think there will be much ( if any ) deep discounting...at least not right out of the gate.

Vendors would probably jeopardize their dealership, step on toes, screw up supply chains, and what-not.

Besides, if demand is high, they don't have to discount.

Maybe if supplies are high at Christmas, then you might look for online coupons, etc.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 07:55 PM
MAP = street price.

Most gear has a "list" or "suggested retail" price, and then a "Minimum Advertised Price" which is usually the de facto street price. As the term implies, you won't see any price below MAP advertised, though sometimes you can get a deal when you talk to the dealer one-on-one. Not as likely on a new, hot product though. Give it a little time...
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 08:07 PM
Anyone found anything yet? I'm seeing a whole lot of nothing.

Athan?
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 08:25 PM
"On September 9th at 1 PM PST Yamaha's website and dealer websites will be opened with complete information, movies and interviews with artists..."

Technically it's Daylight Savings Time, not Standard Time, so maybe it's at the top of next hour?

Or maybe they're just bad with the interwebs...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of many of their products...but their web presence is a bit clunky, for a company so big, and technically savvy.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 08:41 PM
Does anyone know exactly what action (or generation name) that Yamaha is equipping the new CP4 with?

I am unfamiliar with Yamaha DP action nomenclature and specifications.

IMHO, the most transparent, and technically "descriptive" marketing of DP piano action(s) is from Kawai, followed by Roland and Casio. While I was an owner of a much beloved Yamaha GA-1 baby Grand (one of the originals -- made in Japan), alas, I had to part with it upon a divorce.

In any event, I find Yamaha's Digital Piano action design specification(s) and series evolution to be a bit confusing and nebulous. Yeah, I am sure we all understand, in general, what "Graded Hammer Action" means...but what does it specifically mean to Yamaha DP products, and how has it advanced over the years?

Perhaps I haven't visited the correct online resources...I fully admit I may be missing something, here. So, you Yamaha guys, please point me in the right direction.

By the way, the AvantGrand N-Series doesn't count, for obvious reasons. If it isn't so obvious, allow me to explain my opinion: I am only disqualifying the Yamaha N-series action because it is, for all intents and purposes, identical to an actual acoustic Grand Piano action. In other words, it is not something they could replicate in a "slab" style or compact "console" style DP. Basically, the only difference between the N-series action and a real acoustic grand action, is that the N-series hammers are hitting a digital contact, rather than a string. Therefore, it is no wonder that the (very) expensive N-Series has such uniquely inimitable action, for a DP.

While I very much appreciate (and love) the new Casio PX-X50 DP action...I fully acknowledge that the Kawai RM3-II and GF action is, IMHO, the best in the DP class.

Again,

So, my main point/question here is...what is the evolutionary, technical progression of the Yamaha DP action, and how does the new CP4 differ (if any) from it's predecessors, in this regards?

Please bear in mind this is no indictment against Yamaha, as I have always felt, and continue to feel, that they make absolutely fantastic products, with industry leading quality.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
MAP = street price.

Most gear has a "list" or "suggested retail" price, and then a "Minimum Advertised Price" which is usually the de facto street price. As the term implies, you won't see any price below MAP advertised, though sometimes you can get a deal when you talk to the dealer one-on-one. Not as likely on a new, hot product though. Give it a little time...


thanks for clarifying. now i know!
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium
Does anyone know exactly what action (or generation name) that Yamaha is equipping the new CP4 with?


I believe it's the graded NW (Natural Wood) action, as found in the higher-end CLP-470/480 Clavinova models. However, Athan mentioned that the action has been adjusted for use in a portable instrument.

James
x
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium
Does anyone know exactly what action (or generation name) that Yamaha is equipping the new CP4 with?

I am unfamiliar with Yamaha DP action nomenclature and specifications.

IMHO, the most transparent, and technically "descriptive" marketing of DP piano action(s) is from Kawai, followed by Roland and Casio. While I was an owner of a much beloved Yamaha GA-1 baby Grand (one of the originals -- made in Japan), alas, I had to part with it upon a divorce.

In any event, I find Yamaha's Digital Piano action design specification(s) and series evolution to be a bit confusing and nebulous. Yeah, I am sure we all understand, in general, what "Graded Hammer Action" means...but what does it specifically mean to Yamaha DP products, and how has it advanced over the years?


I believe the current portable DP lineup uses these actions:

GHS - the light, budget graded action, as in P-35/95/105, DGX-640
GH or GHE - Graded Hammer, as in P-155, CP-33/300/50
NW - Natural Wood, not graded, as in CP1/5
and the new one in the CP4, which I believe is a graded version of NW
Posted By: Tritium Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 11:32 PM
Okay, thanks for the clarification Kawai James and breakdown, Anotherscott.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/09/13 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by dje31
Anyone found anything yet? I'm seeing a whole lot of nothing.

Athan?


Sorry, must have been really jet lagged. It's this Thursday, Sept 12 at 1PM Pacific Time that the CP4 website will be opened. The MOXF is scheduled for Sept 19 at the same time.

Sorry for the confusion. Chock it up to 4 trips to Japan in the last two months !
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 12:11 AM
Thanks, Athan, looking forward to it!
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 01:17 AM
Thanks for the update, Athan, though the 12th is Thursday.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Tritium
Does anyone know exactly what action (or generation name) that Yamaha is equipping the new CP4 with?


I believe it's the graded NW (Natural Wood) action, as found in the higher-end CLP-470/480 Clavinova models. However, Athan mentioned that the action has been adjusted for use in a portable instrument.

James
x


We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 06:28 AM
In the CP4 add it says "our graded hammer wooden (!) key action with synthetic ivory tops" . Is your confirmation of GH3 for the CP4 or CP40 in that respect ? I miss the 'wooden' part here.

By the way GH3 implies three sensors I suppose , so that part has been settled then (?!).

I am confused...
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 08:13 AM
Regarding piano sounds and action, this is what I understand so far from the add in the magazine and Athan's remarks. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

1) AP sounds use SCM . The full processing, so not just fixed sample snapshots of the parent technology , like voxpops and I first feared.
2) EP sounds use SCM. (Also the real processing)
3) Keybed is a new version of GH3 with Ivory tops and wood incorporated in some way.
4) There is no organ modeling on board (no tone wheel emulation), but there probably is a good collection of organ sounds of the Motif series available.
5) Rest of the collection is Motif XF based. Any idea on a certain bias in sound categories ; just bread & butter, or also a collection of fresh synth sounds ?

- so the keybed is graded and has three sensors and incorporates wood .
- SCM modeling provides for a lively sound with natural dynamic range and no audible looping (right ?) . On previous sample based Yamaha's (CFIII) looping is quite obvious in the higher octaves. Hope this is history in the new CP with SCM.

Question: will the keybed have a certain coating on the black keys as well ? I recently played a TP40Wood with Ivory tops and it mysteriously missed any coating on the black keys, making it old-fashioned plastic slippery keys.

Just nitpicking about the design:
- Mod/wheel could be next to the controls , lower to the keys if technically possible (see my mockup picture). It would free up the entire upper part of the instrument and is also more consistent in design esthetics. Apple would have put them there ;-)
- there are only three faders, whilst its a controller with four zones (?!). Why / why not four faders ?! I thought the CP4 was about getting everything exactly right , making the perfect stage piano. Three faders for four zones is odd to say the least.

End of nitpicking. For the rest the CP4 looks promising, almost perfect and very competitive !!
Posted By: Wuffski Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.


Same as the CLP-470 keybed! That is a _really_ nice one smile .
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by JFP
....so the keybed is graded and has three sensors and incorporates wood .
- SCM modeling provides for a lively sound with natural dynamic range and no audible looping (right ?) . On previous sample based Yamaha's (CFIII) looping is quite obvious in the higher octaves. Hope this is history in the new CP with SCM.


Don't hold your breath. I own the CP1 with "SCM" - which is modelled behaviours applied to sampled sounds - so hammer hardness for instance, or its effect at least, is modelled and applied to the basic acoustic piano tones. But the basic tones are purely sampled and feature a decay that is slightly too short to my ears and (of course) quite blatant looping. Nord employ a longer loop which wobbles and swells a bit and is not a bad simulation of the natural beating of decaying notes. But Yamaha and Kawai use short loops which sound static and false as the volume diminishes. The looping is much more obvious in the lower registers because the natural decay should of course be much longer down there so I find it odd that you hear it more in the upper octaves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very happy CP1 owner. The action is completely sublime to me - and of course they've gone and changed it on the CP4! GH3 and its derivatives are too heavy in my opinion - or at least the initial inertia of the action is unnaturally hard to overcome.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:32 AM
Thanks Steve,

So SCM doesn't provide for long natural decays and sustains , like Super Natural does, but is merely for some string resonance and damper resonance modeling, right ? Pity.

The reason looping is more annoying to me in the high register on the current CP400 line, is because after the attack phase, the loop phase starts quite early and is very static , giving a high pitched squeaky frequency sound (especially obvious headphones). Very digital character, very unrealistic. I hoped SCM and perhaps CFX (longer samples ?) would solve that...
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JFP
....so the keybed is graded and has three sensors and incorporates wood .
- SCM modeling provides for a lively sound with natural dynamic range and no audible looping (right ?) . On previous sample based Yamaha's (CFIII) looping is quite obvious in the higher octaves. Hope this is history in the new CP with SCM.


Don't hold your breath. I own the CP1 with "SCM" - which is modelled behaviours applied to sampled sounds - so hammer hardness for instance, or its effect at least, is modelled and applied to the basic acoustic piano tones. But the basic tones are purely sampled and feature a decay that is slightly too short to my ears and (of course) quite blatant looping. Nord employ a longer loop which wobbles and swells a bit and is not a bad simulation of the natural beating of decaying notes. But Yamaha and Kawai use short loops which sound static and false as the volume diminishes. The looping is much more obvious in the lower registers because the natural decay should of course be much longer down there so I find it odd that you hear it more in the upper octaves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very happy CP1 owner. The action is completely sublime to me - and of course they've gone and changed it on the CP4! GH3 and its derivatives are too heavy in my opinion - or at least the initial inertia of the action is unnaturally hard to overcome.

Cheers,

Steve


how can you sign this "cheers" you curmudgeon.. doesn't matter that you already own the technology, at the moment we are all out here cruising on the high of bloated expectations.....

Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:43 AM
Sorry both!

Yes the SCM (at least as installed on CP1/5) is nearly there. For example, the tonality is very nice. Even, responsive, ballsy and above all, musical - typically Yamaha. I don't find the pianos too bright either and there is no shrillness to them. So in this respect I am happier with the CP1 than any other slab type piano I've owned and I prefer the piano sounds to those on the AvantGrand as well (they are quite different). But the looping is certainly there and yes, the sustain needs to be just a little longer in my opinion.

The newer CFX sample is not on CP1 - I assume it will be the same sample as used on NU-1. That has been generally well received and it may feature longer attack samples, don't know.

The CP1/5's crowning glory is the "NW Stage" action and they've ditched it! Although I understand the original criticism that it was/is ungraded. That isn't an issue for me though and I love this action.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:59 AM
i think you made your point in the first post. and its valid. its still a digital and therefore a facsimile- but apparently a very usable one - of real life.

But i need a new board and this sounds really impressive, particularly with what sounds to be a professional action, a lot of piano samples, and less than 40 lbs of lugging. at low 2000's that sounds like a value-added proposition.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
So SCM doesn't provide for long natural decays and sustains , like Super Natural does, but is merely for some string resonance and damper resonance modeling, right ? Pity.

On the CP1, SCM provides adjustments for decay and release times. (Also hammer hardness.)
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
The CP1/5's crowning glory is the "NW Stage" action and they've ditched it! Although I understand the original criticism that it was/is ungraded. That isn't an issue for me though and I love this action.

It might be that the new version will feel like the NW Stage in the center, but feel lighter toward the top and heavier toward the bottom, which I think would still be good. Or maybe it will feel like the NW Stage at the top, and a bit heavier in the middle, and still heavier at the bottom, which would not be quite as good (for people who liked the NW Stage as it was). Hopefully it doesn't just feel like a GH CP50 with wooden aesthetics! The CP5 felt so much better than the CP50. I guess we'll know next month, as people get their hands on them... or maybe Athan can chime in with a little more detail here in the mean time.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 12:28 PM
anotherscott - completely agree with you. If it has the general feel of NW Stage in terms of weighting and behaviour (but just happens to be subtly graded) then it will be very nice.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
The newer CFX sample is not on CP1 - I assume it will be the same sample as used on NU-1. That has been generally well received and it may feature longer attack samples, don't know.

The CP1/5's crowning glory is the "NW Stage" action and they've ditched it! Although I understand the original criticism that it was/is ungraded. That isn't an issue for me though and I love this action.


It's been a few months since I played the NU1. However from memory, I think it is the same sample.

The new action is definitely heavier then the CP5. Whether I like it more or less--I'd have to spend more time with it, particularly in a gigging situation .

Just the fact that it's 17 lbs. lighter then the CP5 and on first listen, appeared to sound as good as my Nord in mono, plus has a new sample, with refinement on the old CF & S6--well again , what's not to like ?
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 02:20 PM
I like the NW action on my CP5, but if I could change anything it would be to increase the throw just a little, the action is just a little bit shallow. The action is on the light side but I love it. Yes it is a little lighter than my acoustic piano but on a gig it's no problem.

I had almost pulled the trigger on a Nord Stage 2 but I am hopeful that the CP4 will cover the bases at substanially less money and perhaps a better feeling keybed, which seems to be the only criticism players have of the Nord.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by RonL
I had almost pulled the trigger on a Nord Stage 2 but I am hopeful that the CP4 will cover the bases at substanially less money and perhaps a better feeling keybed, which seems to be the only criticism players have of the Nord.

Pretty different boards... The CP4 would be a closer match to the Nord Piano 2 (lacking the NS2's organ section and VA synth section). Of course, for the price difference between an NS2 and a CP4, there are a number of nice organ or synth boards you could stack on your CP!
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by RonL
which seems to be the only criticism players have of the Nord.
not trying to hijack thread but I was at GC last week and once again I was playing latest Nord Stage. The AP's were the Lady D and Imperial. I hear them as passable in a group context. The EP's I played were authentic but they weren't spank-able like Neo-soul VST.
Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Sorry both!

Yes the SCM (at least as installed on CP1/5) is nearly there. For example, the tonality is very nice. Even, responsive, ballsy and above all, musical - typically Yamaha. I don't find the pianos too bright either and there is no shrillness to them. So in this respect I am happier with the CP1 than any other slab type piano I've owned and I prefer the piano sounds to those on the AvantGrand as well (they are quite different). But the looping is certainly there and yes, the sustain needs to be just a little longer in my opinion.

The newer CFX sample is not on CP1 - I assume it will be the same sample as used on NU-1. That has been generally well received and it may feature longer attack samples, don't know.

The CP1/5's crowning glory is the "NW Stage" action and they've ditched it! Although I understand the original criticism that it was/is ungraded. That isn't an issue for me though and I love this action.


I couldn't agree with you more about the action of the CP1/5's. I could care less that it's ungraded which has no meaning to me anyway. It's the general feel of the overall action that counts and I loved it from the start. To consider the CP4 over my CP5, the sounds for the Grands would have to be way considerably better to consider it as an upgrade from my CP5.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by RUSS SHETTLE
To consider the CP4 over my CP5, the sounds for the Grands would have to be way considerably better to consider it as an upgrade from my CP5.

The CP5 is a great board too. I don't think Yamaha is coming out with the CP4 so much to convince CP5 owners to buy something new... I think they are more concerned with all the people who looked at but didn't buy a CP5, and I think there were more of them than Yamaha had anticipated. People who have CP5s may love them, but lots of people couldn't get past the bulk or the interface. But if some CP5 owners want to go to a CP4 for the lighter weight or new CFX piano samples, I'm sure Yamaha won't mind one bit!
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 04:09 PM
Sorry I meant Piano and typed Stage - two very different boards. My bad.

As far as the music rack to paraphrase the old saw: better to include a music rack and not need it than need a music rack and not have it. Included. But I agree it's better that it is available as an option than not available at all. and I could say better to include a mod wheel...at first I dinged my CP5 for not having those though I have found I do not miss it at all.

do we know if the CP5 is discontinued? seems odd that the CP4 is priced less, has more. Though in the Yamaha paradigm the lower the model number the higher end it is.

Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
People who have CP5s may love them, but lots of people couldn't get past the bulk or the interface. But if some CP5 owners want to go to a CP4 for the lighter weight or new CFX piano samples, I'm sure Yamaha won't mind one bit!


Oh, I'm sure Yamaha won't mind, after all, it's business to them as well as trying to be the top dog. The user interface is tricky and I still refer to the manual at times when I want' to experiment with different sounds. There are a few presets which I've come to like and one in particular which I tweak with the 5 band equalizer and that's a great feature to have. I agree though; had the user interface been easier a lot more would be owned.

Originally Posted by RonL
do we know if the CP5 is discontinued? seems odd that the CP4 is priced less, has more. Though in the Yamaha paradigm the lower the model number the higher end it is.


Lower number should mean higher end and more expensive. It is a curious thought! Why CP4? Why not CP6? It's lighter? Hmmmm! Good for travel but why again? I've always been concerned with weight vs the quality of construction. I like the weight of my CP5. It gives the feeling that it is made well, made to bang the heck out of it without worrying about it falling apart.

My first DP was the Casio PX30. Not bad for sound and the keyboard was a bit more weighted than the CP5 but the keys did not have a solid quality tight feel like that of my CP5 and it would make a knocking sound sometimes like some old car needing a valve job. I felt like it might break on me if I play too hard but then again, it was just $500 and weighed only 25 pounds. Compared to my CP5 it seemed like a toy.

I bought the CP5 because I wanted something far more professional along with the construction quality that would come with something far more professional and along with that quality there would be a higher weight expectation and of course there was. Huge difference. I'm glad now that I bought a heavy duty X stand for the Casio.

My feeling is this: Lesser weight may, not absolute, mean less quality in construction, possibly. I use to gig myself so I do know the desire for less weight.

CP4 is priced less, has more! More what? An improved Grand? I guess we'll find out when the reviews start rolling in. I hope the CP5 isn't discontinued, anytime soon. It's a shame that Yamaha won't come out with further voice upgrades to their current CP models, CP1/5. They had only one that I know of for the CP5 and I installed it with no problems. heck, I'd even pay for software upgrades. I want to keep my CP5.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 07:59 PM
I think the CP4 is going to sell like hotcakes if street price is less than $2K. Roland could fight back with a lighter weight RD-700NX without changing anything else, imho.

Yamaha is Japanese right? Curious they chose 4 for the model number.
Posted By: boynamedsuse Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
I think the CP4 is going to sell like hotcakes if street price is less than $2K. Roland could fight back with a lighter weight RD-700NX without changing anything else, imho.

Yamaha is Japanese right? Curious they chose 4 for the model number.

Not 100% sure, but I think it's the Chinese who don't like the number 4, which rhymes with their word for "death" (in at least one of their major dialects).
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 09:00 PM
Should we expect an upgrade for the CP1 soon? If so, will the CP4 keep the title of "The best stage piano" from YAMAHA. I believe the CP1 is also a stage piano; or is it a digital piano? I'm confused.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Should we expect an upgrade for the CP1 soon? If so, will the CP4 keep the title of "The best stage piano" from YAMAHA. I believe the CP1 is also a stage piano; or is it a digital piano? I'm confused.


don't you think the CP1 is basically an orphan board that only a couple studios and Essbrace own? i never really see them out in public or at performances.. sort of a delorean one of a kind. Just like my vpiano. never to be improved. just eventually recycled into beer cans.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 09:22 PM
And to think that the volume knob on that board is so nice (aluminum); perhaps YAMAHA could produce a consumer version a la iphone 5C (the C stands for cheap). You know, with a plastic volume knob and plastic keys; Oh wait, the keys are already plastic with a touch of fake wood on the sides. Come to think of it, They're already half-way there; in terms of producing the CP1C!
Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
And to think that the volume knob on that board is so nice (aluminum); perhaps YAMAHA could produce a consumer version a la iphone 5C (the C stands for cheap). You know, with a plastic volume knob and plastic keys; Oh wait, the keys are already plastic with a touch of fake wood on the sides. Come to think of it, They're already half-way there; in terms of producing the CP1C!


CP1C as their cheap version of the CP1? You could say that the CP5 is already the cheap version of the CP1 but I wouldn't like to think of the CP5 that way and it's not cheap anyway. The CP1 may be a little over priced. I know someone here on PW who has the CP1 and wished they had the CP5 instead due to features the CP1 doesn't have. The two look almost identical except for the CP1 is a little heavier and about an inch wider. I've heard the electronics were a bit more refined and the CF voice runs through an additional processor. The action may be more refined. I don't really know enough about their differences to qualify it as being twice the price as the CP5. Something must be pretty good inside.
Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by bfb
don't you think the CP1 is basically an orphan board that only a couple studios and Essbrace own? i never really see them out in public or at performances.. sort of a delorean one of a kind. Just like my vpiano. never to be improved. just eventually recycled into beer cans.


What was before the CP1 for Yamaha's high end stage piano? I'm not sure myself but I've seen past performances where the keyboard on stage was a Yamaha "CP", just CP and nothing else. Have to dig into history now.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 10:01 PM
Aluminum knob! Hello..... It makes all the difference in the world. If the knob were plastic, then I'd say 'twas over-priced; however, that shiny knob does it for me.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by RUSS SHETTLE
You could say that the CP5 is already the cheap version of the CP1 but I wouldn't like to think of the CP5 that way and it's not cheap anyway. The CP1 may be a little over priced. I know someone here on PW who has the CP1 and wished they had the CP5 instead due to features the CP1 doesn't have. The two look almost identical except for the CP1 is a little heavier and about an inch wider. I've heard the electronics were a bit more refined and the CF voice runs through an additional processor. The action may be more refined. I don't really know enough about their differences to qualify it as being twice the price as the CP5. Something must be pretty good inside.

Yah if I recall correctly, the CP1 has 3-pedal support, an extra S6 preset (but same base piano sample), and perhaps it has an extra piano parameter for user adjustment, and a larger screen. I think it's a high-priced halo product. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the CP5 (ie, not glaringly gimped trying to push shoppers up the ladder.)
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/10/13 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.


Thank you Athan.

My apologies for nit-picking, but I believe the CLP-470/480 and CVP509 use the NW action, not GH3.

On a separate point I notice that you mention the CVP509, and not the current generation CVP609. Is this because the CVP609 features 'real-wood white keys'?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.


Thank you Athan.

My apologies for nit-picking, but I believe the CLP-470/480 and CVP509 use the NW action, not GH3.

On a separate point I notice that you mention the CVP509, and not the current generation CVP609. Is this because the CVP609 features 'real-wood white keys'?

Cheers,
James
x


This is direct from the CVP509 website. The NW incorporates the GH3 design and combines it with wooden keys.

"Yamaha's innovative GH3 keyboard has three sensors: in addition to two sensors to detect keystroke strength, it includes Yamaha’s original Damper Sensor. This enables you to use advanced techniques such as playing the same note repeatedly with perfect articulation, previously only possible on a grand piano, which blends sounds without the use of the damper pedal. You also enjoy the keyboard touch of a grand piano, including keys with weight gradations – heavy in the lower end and lighter in the higher end. The NW (Natural Wood) keyboard, with the same structure as the GH3 keyboard, and synthetic ivory keytops also provide the feel of a grand piano, even the fingertip sensations."

Hope that clears it up.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 05:14 AM
Hi Alan,

I was just reading the CVP-609 webpage / features, and I came across this passage, which I find curious:

Quote
The Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) keyboard could only be made by Yamaha, with woodworking techniques perfected from over a century of building fine acoustic pianos. Like a grand piano, the keys are made of solid wood that has undergone the long drying process required for use in a musical instrument. By selecting only the highest quality sections of each piece of wood, keys that are more resistant to warping and deforming than those of laminated wooden keyboards are created.


While I agree that an all wood keyboard certainly is more expensive and provides a more pleasing tactile experience...I do question the statement that a solid wood key would be superior, in terms of stability (resistance to warping and/or deforming) than a wood key that is made of several laminations.

It is my experience with guitars, that a 5-piece laminated neck is significantly stronger and more stable than a single piece neck made out of the same wood. This doesn't just apply to musical instruments. A laminated wood beam is much stronger, and can bear more load, than an equivalent beam made out of a single, homogeneous piece of wood.

Just curious as to Yamaha's thinking and reasoning, here.

P.S. -- I am not questioning the incorporation of real wooden keys. That's wonderful. I am, however, questioning the statement that a solid wooden key is superior in "resistance to warping and deforming" as compared to a multi-piece laminated wood key.

P.P.S -- In fact, I am pretty certain Yamaha uses a laminated pinblock in their grand pianos, specifically due to the increased strength and stability. Also, I believe that even some high end piano manufacturers will employ laminated spruce soundboards, especially when they are being shipped to regions which have large temperature fluctuations and/or high humidity.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 05:15 AM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Hope that clears it up.


That's great, thanks.

So do the CVP509 and CVP609 share the same keyboard action?

James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 08:00 AM
I think I'm hearing a lot of excited people getting their expectations up here. This is a Yamaha piano the SCM does not apply to the AP's except in post processing (S6,CFIIIs,CFX) they are still sampled and suffer from the technical issues that many people here seem to focus on. (ie: looping, stretching etc) These are the same sample sets used in nearly all Yamaha products in different versions. If you like the Yamaha sound (and I really do) then its the same in the CP4. There is no improvement in these AP's. The EP's are based on those in the CP5 and very similar and sound just as good. Next are the Motif based additional sounds which of course are also of high quality although most are quite old. What I'm saying is (with the exception of the EP's which IMHO are very close to best in class) don't expect much to be different sound wise. What the CP4 does have is the CFX. A Yamaha piano that really doesn't sound like any others. My favorite Grand Piano and the sample set here is a far more recent addition that has been sampled in a more competitive fashion then recent Yamaha offerings. I'm not saying its a 88key sampled, unlooped CFX sample your going to hear but what I will say that even though technically under analysis Yamaha's piano sounds might not be able to compete with Roland's Supernatural technology to the ear the CFX sounds absolutely wonderful and very musical in a way that transcends the pixel peepers and makes you just want to play. So judge the CP4 by your ears not your eyes and you won't be disappointed.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
This is a Yamaha piano the SCM does not apply to the AP's except in post processing (S6,CFIIIs,CFX) they are still sampled and suffer from the technical issues that many people here seem to focus on. (ie: looping, stretching etc) ....There is no improvement in these AP's. .... I'm not saying its a 88key sampled, unlooped CFX sample your going to hear ... So judge the CP4 by your ears not your eyes and you won't be disappointed.


OK, so now I'm confused:

- First it's confirmed that the AP's are (also) SCM piano's . Some of us doubted the words "based on SCM" , but when asked if the AP's we're also pure SCM, Athan replied with a 'yes'. Therefore looping artifacts should not be audible, right (?).
- Now again, it's apparently NOT pure SCM , implying only some post processing is taking place for e.g. damper pedal resonance, but not for smoothing out the sustain phase in a natural way comparable to Super Natural, or physical modeling based AP's.

I do agree that the piano's will probably sound fantastic , especially the CFX, but my personal reason for not being interested in Yamaha DP's so far, is the squeaky digital looping in the highest octaves which I can't stand. I hope with the new CFX and the new processing, SCM or not, that will be within an acceptable range now. Perhaps Yamaha can post some sound demo's demonstrating the full decaying sound in all different octaves , like StudioLogic did for their Numa Concert Piano. Those Numa examples are very useful in judging the piano's strengths and weaknesses for as long as you can't try out for yourself. I hope other brands post similar sound demo's in the future. (E.g. demo02 , demo03, demo04 at https://www.youtube.com/user/StudiologicMusic/videos).

Time will tell.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by JFP

OK, so now I'm confused:

- First it's confirmed that the AP's are (also) SCM piano's . Some of us doubted the words "based on SCM" , but when asked if the AP's we're also pure SCM, Athan replied with a 'yes'. Therefore looping artifacts should not be audible, right (?).
- Now again, it's apparently NOT pure SCM , implying only some post processing is taking place for e.g. damper pedal resonance, but not for smoothing out the sustain phase in a natural way comparable to Super Natural, or physical modeling based AP's.



The problem is your thinking SCM is a modeled piano or a semi modeled piano like Roland's Supernatural... SCM has been around on Yamaha's CP1/5/50 for a few years. All it is is modeled post sample effects. It has a far more limited role in the composition of the whole sound then Roland's SN technology which models whole aspects of the base sound (such as the decay).
Yes the CP4 has full SCM ...
SCM is just a Yamaha brand name for their piano post processing engine.
Yes it sounds fantastic but it isn't in any real sense of the word a "modeled" piano.
And underneath are those looping decay's you speak of .... but IMHO they do not effect the sound unless your sitting there specifically listening for them (which people do) or running software to analyze the sound and peeping at the little graphs.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 11:12 AM
I was under the impression that SCM was very similar to SN. If indeed this SCM is simply a post processing of previously recorded material, YAMAHA should not use the word modeling in their description; for, even though there is a minor component of modeling, it is not a pure hybrid approach; which is what many are lead to believe. This clearly points to the fact that YAMAHA has no real interest in developing a physical model of a piano.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
I was under the impression that SCM was very similar to SN. If indeed this SCM is simply a post processing of previously recorded material,


Well Roland's SN uses prerecorded samples that get processed by the Supernatural modeling software but Roland's approach is more intrinsic to the actual sound by modeling some of the main sound componants such as the famous SN non looping decay. SCM by comparison is best described as modeling effects applied as post processing to the sound. None of the actual AP sounds are modeled. In EP's for example Yamaha use SCM to model several different types of amps and phasers etc. They use it on other boards, mixers, processors etc (Motif etc) and call it VCM effects (ie: Virtual Component Modeling). Its very effective and sounds great but you are correct in saying that while you could get away with describing a Roland SN as a Sample/Modeled Hybrid piano it would very difficult to call Yamaha's SCM pianos hybrid pianos by any stretch of the imagination. They are sampled pure and simple and that CFIIIS sample is essentially the same base in a $5000 CVP-609 as it is in a P105, CP4, CP1 or a MotifXF, Mox, S90XS ...etc etc etc. They all sound different (to a point) but are all certainly related having been derived from the same recording session of the same CFIIIs.
What's new here is the CFX.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Pete14
I was under the impression that SCM was very similar to SN. If indeed this SCM is simply a post processing of previously recorded material,


Well Roland's SN uses prerecorded samples that get processed by the Supernatural modeling software but Roland's approach is more intrinsic to the actual sound by modeling some of the main sound componants such as the famous SN non looping decay. SCM by comparison is best described as modeling effects applied as post processing to the sound. None of the actual AP sounds are modeled. In EP's for example Yamaha use SCM to model several different types of amps and phasers etc. They use it on other boards, mixers, processors etc (Motif etc) and call it VCM effects (ie: Virtual Component Modeling). Its very effective and sounds great but you are correct in saying that while you could get away with describing a Roland SN as a Sample/Modeled Hybrid piano it would very difficult to call Yamaha's SCM pianos hybrid pianos by any stretch of the imagination. They are sampled pure and simple and that CFIIIS sample is essentially the same base in a $5000 CVP-609 as it is in a P105, CP4, CP1 or a MotifXF, Mox, S90XS ...etc etc etc. They all sound different (to a point) but are all certainly related having been derived from the same recording session of the same CFIIIs.
What's new here is the CFX.


i gotta admit i don't get that. how hard is it to set up a sampling session in a studio and do a new sample set. the software guys do it all the time and they sell their programs for $150-300. You'd think the hardware folks would want the next generation slab to have - new samples... and... a lot more dedicated RAM. we don't need a better flute sample or endless combis.

but i'm sure as a performance board the CP4 will be a really nice choice and easier to move around. people at a wedding reception don't jump up and yell "Sh*t!! i just heard a looped sample!!!". now for recording work, i'd still take the Ivory or Galaxy pianos and a midi controller to get more realism if i didnt want to get hung up mic'ing up an acoustic.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 02:35 PM
People seem to be discussing SCM without having looked into what Yamaha says it does.

From the CP1/5 downloadable brochure:

The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. This system allows physical components of the instrument (hardness of the hammers, resonance of the sound board, striking position of the hammers) to be modeled. It also uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone.

So it sounds a bit closer to Roland's (non-V) SN than people are giving it credit for. Like SN, it appears to be using modeling rather than multiple layers of samples to address velocity.

Also of possible interest, in another one of Yamaha's downloadable brochures, they said this:

The CP1 is equipped with an SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) tone generator. The truth is, this name doesn’t just refer to one tone generation method. Daisuke Miura, who worked on the tone generator modeling, explained it like this: “Spectral component modeling” is used to symbolically refer to a group of characteristics of this system. With frequency characteristic analysis (spectral), the CP1 can create natural and real sounds based on the speed with which the performer presses the keys. The piano types, effects, and amp all use modeling technology (modeling), and you can combine these elements to create your own unique customizations (component).

Mr. Ide told us that “technically, other than the fact that they are all produced using a modeling tone generator, the technologies that are used for each of the piano types are different.”
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 02:56 PM
In my understanding SCM seems to have more in common with Kawai's PHI than SN. It models the dynamic range into a fine grained , smooth range from pppp to ffff. In addition to that come string resonance, hammer hardness, damper resonance etc. Same parameters as in the virtual technician of Kawai. But the decay and sustain phase seems purely sample-playback in terms of length and content. Roland SN keeps on altering / alternating spectral components in the sustain phase, where PHI and SCM have a more static playback once the key is struck. At least that's what I understand from all the information up till now...

By the way does Yamaha use 88 key sampling as a starting base on the latest boards and/or for the new CFX set ?

Despite all the technical snick/snack , I am anxious to hear some proper sound demo's soon that demonstrate the potential of the new AP presets. In the end it's the ears that decide not the technical underpinning.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
But the decay and sustain phase seems purely sample-playback in terms of length and content.

As I mentioned earlier, SCM provides adjustments for decay and release times on the acoustic pianos, so length is adjustable. As to whether it spectral alters the content in any way during the decay (or varies it depending on how you set the decay length), I don't know.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 03:24 PM
A spectral is defined as a "ghostly entity"; this definition fairly describes YAMAHA's approach. SCM is a ghostly, abstract pile of stretched samples.
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 04:10 PM
The question for me would be if they are using softer samples. Does this description meet other people's understanding: Yamaha tends to use hard strikes as their base and then add still harder strikes for the higher velocities. A low pass filter then softens the sound for softer strikes. (Listen to a CP300 with the Brightness raised to hear the actual sample.) If they now turn to using softer strikes and then add sine waves to recreate harder strikes, SCM will mean more. But they may instead just continue with hard strikes as their basis and add sine waves to create the ff and fff strikes. That would mean that a LP filter is still creating the softest sounds.

Have to wait and hear, I suppose?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by JFP
But the decay and sustain phase seems purely sample-playback in terms of length and content.

As I mentioned earlier, SCM provides adjustments for decay and release times on the acoustic pianos, so length is adjustable.

So does Kawai - it's very easy on the MP6, for example. You can stretch the relevant parts of the envelope. However, it does nothing to the underlying wave component, as far as I'm aware, so the decay loop is pretty static and "synthy."

Quote
As to whether it spectral alters the content in any way during the decay (or varies it depending on how you set the decay length), I don't know.

My gripe with Yamaha's DP sound has long been that, although the samples themselves are clear and appealing, the decay is unrealistic, the samples are audibly stretched, and the result is early-onset "sample fatigue." I don't think the CP range has thus far addressed these issues - it'll be interesting to see if that changes with the CP4.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
The question for me would be if they are using softer samples.

Yamaha's acoustic pianos are very bright. They have never been my favorite brand, and their DPs follow suit. However, some Yamaha DPs play very well indeed (if you can live with the sound).
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 11:53 PM
Quote
In my understanding SCM seems to have more in common with Kawai's PHI than SN. It models the dynamic range into a fine grained , smooth range from pppp to ffff. In addition to that come string resonance, hammer hardness, damper resonance etc. Same parameters as in the virtual technician of Kawai. But the decay and sustain phase seems purely sample-playback in terms of length and content. Roland SN keeps on altering / alternating spectral components in the sustain phase, where PHI and SCM have a more static playback once the key is struck. At least that's what I understand from all the information up till now...


Effectively your correct


Quote
By the way does Yamaha use 88 key sampling as a starting base on the latest boards and/or for the new CFX set ?


While there certainly has been 88 key sampled versions of 4 Yamaha pianos that have been recorded all are yet to appear in a actual board. The CFX may or may not change that as I can't detect stretched notes in Yamaha's pianos without software help.

Quote
In the end it's the ears that decide not the technical underpinning.


correct

Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/11/13 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
People seem to be discussing SCM without having looked into what Yamaha says it does.

From the CP1/5 downloadable brochure:

The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. This system allows physical components of the instrument (hardness of the hammers, resonance of the sound board, striking position of the hammers) to be modeled. It also uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone.

So it sounds a bit closer to Roland's (non-V) SN than people are giving it credit for. Like SN, it appears to be using modeling rather than multiple layers of samples to address velocity.

Also of possible interest, in another one of Yamaha's downloadable brochures, they said this:

The CP1 is equipped with an SCM (Spectral Component Modeling) tone generator. The truth is, this name doesn’t just refer to one tone generation method. Daisuke Miura, who worked on the tone generator modeling, explained it like this: “Spectral component modeling” is used to symbolically refer to a group of characteristics of this system. With frequency characteristic analysis (spectral), the CP1 can create natural and real sounds based on the speed with which the performer presses the keys. The piano types, effects, and amp all use modeling technology (modeling), and you can combine these elements to create your own unique customizations (component).

Mr. Ide told us that “technically, other than the fact that they are all produced using a modeling tone generator, the technologies that are used for each of the piano types are different.”


Does the CP1/5/50 handle velocity layers differently to the CP300/33?..yes.

Are there underlying Multi-velocity samples ?.. yes

Does the Tyros/Motif/CVP "articulations" technology and VCM modeling Yamaha use operate in a similar way? ...yes

SCM is Marketing speak for something Yamaha has been doing on many boards for quite some time.

Regardless I still prefer the Yamaha sound over most others (Excepting the Studio Grand of course).
I just don't think the technical limitations of the Yamaha systems translates into poor DP's. They sound very good indeed.





Posted By: scorpio Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/12/13 12:25 AM
This is a bit off topic, so let me apologize now.

It has been fun following this thread. But I am not interested in a stage piano. What I really would like to see is a successor to the P-155 with the CFX piano. But for the price, maybe the CP4 is the logical successor (of course without speakers).

I am looking forward to all of your reviews of the CP4. And thank you for the informative discussion.
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/12/13 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by scorpio
This is a bit off topic, so let me apologize now.

It has been fun following this thread. But I am not interested in a stage piano. What I really would like to see is a successor to the P-155 with the CFX piano. But for the price, maybe the CP4 is the logical successor (of course without speakers).

I am looking forward to all of your reviews of the CP4. And thank you for the informative discussion.


I agree with you on the P-155 Scorpio. i've been watching for an updated P-155, but i now wonder if it is meant to be. seems that the CP40 derivative at a lower price point (below $1500?..), and the P-105 on the low end doesn't leave a lot of room for another board priced around $1000. But that still might be Yamaha's strategy- to cover price points about 400-500 bucks apart. they seem to have a Toyota-like strategy of swamping the market with a lot of models.

EDIT: actually i re-read this blog and the CP40 has MAP of $1699 per the Yamaha rep. so there certainly is room for a board between the p-105 price point and the cp-40. The spread between the cp4 and the cp40 seems pretty tight, as in the cp40 being overpriced. i would imagine they would keep the CFX sample out of the p-155 as it helps justify the move to the higher price points for the person purely interested in the AP/EP samples.
Posted By: Athan Billias Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 01:07 PM
Spectral Component Modeling

Frankly we can understand how people are confused by the Spectral Component Modeling system because it is not one individual technology, but a system.

It's easiest to understand by breaking down the words.

Full Spectral Component Modeling (all three words) is used ONLY on the tine and reed models. Full Spectral Modeling means that those EP sounds DO NOT have velocity layers and we challenge anyone to to find them because they simply don't exist. There are continuous spectral changes across the entire range of velocities which are not based on sample switching , but windowed spectral data.

Component Modeling is used through out the CP 4 and 40 Stage series and as the words imply means that certain components of the sound are modeled. For example another part of the component modeling of the EPs is the ability to adjust the tine position. This technology is similar to the FDSP technology found in the EX5 years ago. So this is Component Modeling of the tine pickup position.

The acoustic pianos and other sounds feature component modeling where aspects of the sound are modeled. Some of these component aspects (for example Note Off or Sound Board Resonance), Roland sometimes refers to as Behavior Modeling and are availble in other Yamaha product that feature Advanced Articulation. Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic preamp models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic preamp model is applied and what the actual EQ settings for the Mic Preamp are. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself.

At this time we are not using full Spectral Component Modeling on the acoustic pianos or other sounds for technical reasons.

Finally the Virtual Circuit Modeling is pure modeling in that it is mathematical models of resistors and capacitors that are then put together in virtual circuits that emulate vintage stomp box effects. These were developed by Toshi Kunimoto ( Dr. K) who developed the world' s first true physically modeled instrument the VL1 and the Tine position algorithms in FSDP.

It's the combination of all these components that come together and make up the Spectral Component Modeling system.

"Does the CP1/5/50 handle velocity layers differently to the CP300/33?..yes."

Yes, the acoustic pianos have many, many more layers and the EPs use Spectral Component Modeling so there are no velocity splits at all, but continuously changing Spectral windows.

"Are there underlying Multi-velocity samples ?.. yes "

On the acoustic pianos , yes on the EPs no.

"Does the Tyros/Motif/CVP "articulations" technology and VCM modeling Yamaha use operate in a similar way? ...yes"

Those " behavior modeling" technologies are included in the CP4, but Spectral Component Modeling is NOT included in anything, but the CP series at this point.

"SCM is Marketing speak for something Yamaha has been doing on many boards for quite some time."

Actually, no it is unique to the CP1,5,50,4 and 40.

"Regardless I still prefer the Yamaha sound over most others (Excepting the Studio Grand of course).
I just don't think the technical limitations of the Yamaha systems translates into poor DP's. They sound very good indeed."

Thanks, we agree.

Our job is to try and explain some pretty complicated technologies so that people can make informed decisions, but we always agree with those people here who say that the most important thing is how a piano sounds and plays and the best judge is your own ears.




Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 01:31 PM
Athan, I..

I think I love you.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 01:31 PM
Seriously, thank you for this detailed explanation!

Keep up the great work!

James
x
Posted By: dje31 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 02:11 PM
Get a room, you two!

I kid, with love...seriously, nice to have reps here.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 02:22 PM
I agree.

As to Athan's post, I think it's not only useful to potential CP4 purchasers, but interesting in its own right. It endows the acronym with some background and substance, rather than just being a glib marketing term. The general trend toward candor that we're witnessing is very welcome (James???).

There's just one small point on which I'd like clarification. Athan's post talks of "many, many more" layers for the APs in the CP range compared to the CP300/33. Dewster's DPBSD project identified 3 for the CP50, 4 for the CP5 and 5 for the CP1. Unless his analysis is wrong, or the CP4 is set to break records, this sounds like a touch of hyperbole. Am I missing something here?
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Frankly we can understand how people are confused by the Spectral Component Modeling system because it is not one individual technology, but a system.

People are confused because Yamaha hasn't been clear regarding what SCM is or how it applies to the various voices. This has led to endless speculation that the AP voices are at least partially modeled (ala Roland SN) which has, perhaps inadvertently, worked in Yamaha's favor.

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Full Spectral Component Modeling (all three words) is used ONLY on the tine and reed models. Full Spectral Modeling means that those EP sounds DO NOT have velocity layers and we challenge anyone to to find them because they simply don't exist. There are continuous spectral changes across the entire range of velocities which are not based on sample switching , but windowed spectral data.

Component Modeling is used through out the CP 4 and 40 Stage series and as the words imply means that certain components of the sound are modeled. For example another part of the component modeling of the EPs is the ability to adjust the tine position. This technology is similar to the FDSP technology found in the EX5 years ago. So this is Component Modeling of the tine pickup position.

This is 100% as I suspected, SCM applies mainly to the EPs.

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
The acoustic pianos and other sounds feature component modeling where aspects of the sound are modeled. Some of these component aspects (for example Note Off or Sound Board Resonance), Roland sometimes refers to as Behavior Modeling and are availble in other Yamaha product that feature Advanced Articulation. Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic model is applied. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself.

At this time we are not using full Spectral Component Modeling on the acoustic pianos or other sounds for technical reasons.

This also is 100% as I suspected, the APs are not modeled in the conventional sense of the word.

Thanks for finally clearing that up!

So when can we expect to see an unstretched, unlooped DP from Yamaha?
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 02:48 PM
"....and the EPs use Spectral Component Modeling so there are no velocity splits at all, but continuously changing Spectral windows. "

In my understanding that's what PHI does as well on the Kawai's. And of course SN for the Rolands. But what this first part of the sentence means is unclear to me:

"Yes, the acoustic pianos have many, many more layers..."

And are these layers on the AP's also smoothed out over the layer transitions , like Kawai/ Casio / Studiologic or Roland , or not (like Korg) ?

I expect the layer transitions to be inaudible when you go up in the dynamic scale, but ask anyway , cause after the excellent and lengthy explanation that's the only part that's not totally clear to me. Just nitpicking ;-)

P.s. is the website up yet ?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
P.s. is the website up yet ?


1:00pm (PST) today, I believe.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
There's just one small point on which I'd like clarification. Athan's post talks of "many, many more" layers for the APs in the CP range compared to the CP300/33. Dewster's DPBSD project identified 3 for the CP50, 4 for the CP5 and 5 for the CP1. Unless his analysis is wrong, or the CP4 is set to break records, this sounds like a touch of hyperbole. Am I missing something here?

My analysis reports visible / audible layer transitions, so it's only a minimum and there could possibly be input from other layers I'm not detecting.

I don't know all the ins and outs, but if there's room for "many, many more layers" in the ROM then why not use some of that room to instead eliminate the stretching (which is fairly significant over the high and low ends)?
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
"....and the EPs use Spectral Component Modeling so there are no velocity splits at all, but continuously changing Spectral windows. "

In my understanding that's what PHI does as well on the Kawai's. And of course SN for the Rolands.


I think your understanding goes beyond what is actually known. We don't know exactly what comprises PHI and I haven't seen Kawai or anyone else describe PHI that way. We don't even really know what SN is, although we have a better guess on that because Roland has discussed the technology in slightly greater detail.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by gvfarns


I think your understanding goes beyond what is actually known. We don't know exactly what comprises PHI and I haven't seen Kawai or anyone else describe PHI that way. We don't even really know what SN is, although we have a better guess on that because Roland has discussed the technology in slightly greater detail.


[Linked Image]

grin



-- Just kidding, gvfarns. I couldn't resist a "Game of Thrones" meme, here.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 05:21 PM
Lol.
Posted By: Marko in Boston Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:08 PM
Kraft has it up:

http://www.kraftmusic.com/digital-pianos-and-keyboards/digital-pianos/yamaha/cp-series/cp4/

Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:20 PM


Yikes!! $2,200 USD street price (direct).

Nothing against the quality of this new Yamaha product (I love Yamaha products)...

However, I don't think Kawai nor Roland will be sweating too much...and Casio is probably wringing their hands together with a sinister grin. In fact, I bet Casio is looking very hard at developing a new DP that puts it in the $1500-2000 price category.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium


Yikes!! $2,200 USD street price (direct).

.


Yes, and isn't that exactly the price that was predicted ? So where's the 'Yikes' surprise coming from ?

Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium
Yikes!! $2,200 USD street price (direct).

Nothing against the quality of this new Yamaha product (I love Yamaha products)...

However, I don't think Kawai nor Roland will be sweating too much...

I think this will end up being generally a better board for less money than a Roland RD-700NX or a Nord Piano 2 (either version). It is a bit more than the Kawai MP10, but a lot more people would consider gigging with a 38.5 lb board than a 70 lb board.

But for the more budget conscious, Yamaha will also offer the the only slightly less capable CP40 for $1700.

http://www.kraftmusic.com/digital-pianos-and-keyboards/digital-pianos/yamaha/cp-series/cp40/

That will go pretty well against the Roland FP50, RD300NX, Kawai MP6.

All in all, I think this is a very competitive product announcement.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by JFP


Yes, and isn't that exactly the price that was predicted ? So where's the 'Yikes' surprise coming from ?



Sorry, JFP...I didn't realize that this was the price/market segment Yamaha was targeting. My bad.

Disregard my previous "yikes" statement.

So, this new Yamaha DP will be more targeting the consumers who might also be looking at the Roland FP-80 and the Kawai ES-7 / VPC-1.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:44 PM
Looks like the same form factor as the CP33 for both the 4 / 40.

From a production / MFG perspective, using the same box / platform for multiple models keeps costs down.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium
So, this new Yamaha DP will be more targeting the consumers who might also be looking at the Roland FP-80 and the Kawai ES-7 / VPC-1.

Possibly, but it's really more for those looking at dedicated stage pianos, such as the RD-700NX, MP6, Nord Piano 2.

If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, the new CP40 is the scaled down version (around $1700, IIRC).
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 07:24 PM
I really think the revelation here is that someone from Yamaha is prepared to open up a little bit and give those of us interested in the technical aspects something meaningful to digest. So thanks very much Athan - I hope you stick around and give us more of the same because you are very welcome indeed!

And Athan, if you haven't already realised there is a groundswell of opinion among those of us that come here that would really like Yamaha (and most of the others) to look at reducing or preferably eliminating the looping during the decay phase of the acoustic piano sounds. Right here and now it is the single biggest advance that Yamaha could bring to the table to improve their piano voices. I have the CP1 and the action, playability and tone is all there - in fact it is a downright beautiful thing on many levels - but the looping does the sound no favours at all. Please tell the boffins!

Best wishes,

Steve
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 07:31 PM
And the stretching!
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 07:58 PM
+1 on the looping. At least on the CFIII it's too obvious for my ears (just my personal judgement). CFX I haven't tried yet.

88 key sampling would be welcome, but stretching doesn't have to be audible or annoying by definition. So if a choice has to be made between the two; get rid of looping once and for all !
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
And the stretching!


And the use of filtered hard strikes for soft strikes!
Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:31 PM
For me the Yamaha cp4 is very interesting. I´ve been lookin at RD700NX but think it´s
to big and heavy. If the Yamaha sounds and feels good I´ll probably get one. Unless Roland comes with a new lighter RD700.

Anybody knows when it comes to europe?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:42 PM
Perhaps they should simply use stretching for the extreme low/high registers; basically the notes which are rarely played. As for looping, I'd prefer some form of physical modeling to handle the decay; however, I doubt that YAMAHA will be using Physical modeling anytime near the future (pertaining to acoustic pianos).
Posted By: dje31 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:43 PM
So, looking through the specs pages, it doesn't seem like the 40 has that many less voices than the 4 ( 297 vs 433 ). So I wonder if there's a true, stripped-down ( fewer / no synth / pad voices, drums, etc.), $1k-ish US CP33 / P155 successor / equivalent in the wings ( yeah, I know the 50 was supposed to be the 33's successor ), or is that the P105's niche?

For that matter, is there going to be a new flagship beyond the CP1?

Yeah, I know, patience and all ( never been one of my virtues ), given that it's just now officially official for at least the 4 / 40.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:50 PM
It seems like the CP4 will take over as the flagship ("best stage piano"). The CP1's status will be officially downgraded to "2nd best piano" ever built by YOMOHO; I'm sorry, I meant YAMAHA!
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 08:58 PM
Edit: nothing about the CFX demo - I clicked the wrong part and thought video was only example featuring the CFX sample. My mistake...

Question:
although it's not listed in the specs, it looks as if the CP4 has an auxiliary audio input (mini-jack). Is that correct ? And is it a 'straight through' design, or is it digitized (DAC) and has some kind of volume control and/or audio routing features ?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 09:38 PM
Leaving aside JFP's very valid observations concerning the sound treatment on the video, the CP4 sounds like a VERY nice DP. I've just been listening to the demos, and so far haven't found anything to dislike or equivocate about.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Leaving aside JFP's very valid observations concerning the sound treatment on the video, the CP4 sounds like a VERY nice DP. I've just been listening to the demos, and so far haven't found anything to dislike or equivocate about.


You crossed me; just changed post - I mistakenly clicked the video thinking it was the audio CFX demo. Mix-up...CFX is fine indeed.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 09:48 PM
Actually, I'm going to amend my previous take slightly, too. Listen to the CFIIIS (#2) demo at around 42-47 secs in. It sounds like a classic example of stretching, where adjacent notes have the exact same metallic ring. Still, I didn't expect Yamaha to move to 88-note sampling, so I'm not unduly disappointed if what I'm noticing is due to stretching - but I do prefer each note to have its own character.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/12/13 11:04 PM
"Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic model is applied. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself. "

Hi,

The Spectral Component Modeling post was written at about 5:30 am and there is one detail that should be cleared up. The SCM does not contain mic modeling, it contains microphone preamp modeling. We modeled the mic preamps (one with 2 band EQ and one with 3 band EQ) that were used in the recording sessions. So though you can't change the microphone, you can change the mic pre settings which gives you a good deal of control. We'll edit the original post and makr it as edited so people know.

Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 12:34 AM
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?

I'm assuming there's some stock MIDI files used to demo the sounds on a range of Yamaha instruments.

Good videos though, I was a good move to mention the re-forestation project in Indonesia too.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?



Well apart from the CFX the patches are the same.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!

[video:youtube]jKGjOE_7bYI[/video]

With Flash going for ~$0.50 USD / GB, ARM processors a dime a dozen, and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a free (as in beer) RTOS, it puzzles me why this type of zero sum game discussion still occurs almost daily here in beautiful sunny PW. It's almost as if DPs were left high and dry by the last wave of technology. What passes for the latest thing is controlling creaky >10 year old electronics from your spanking new i-whatever.

Pianoteq (or Ivory, or etc.) in a box, how long must we wait?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Kawai James
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?



Well apart from the CFX the patches are the same.


I thought they were 'based on' the sounds from the previous generation?

James
x
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!

[video:youtube]jKGjOE_7bYI[/video]



Owl Stretching Time?

Sorry, couldn't resist another Monty Python reference.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 07:34 AM
Athan, may I ask you to clarify the keyboard action used in the CP4, and differences with that used by the CLP-470/CLP-480, please?

According to the CP4 specifications:

Originally Posted by CP4 action
88-key Natural Wood Graded Hammer (NW-GH) keyboard with Synthetic Ivory Keytops (with real-wood white keys)


However according to the CLP-470 specifications:

Originally Posted by CLP-470/CLP-480 action
NW (Natural Wood (wood is used for the white keys)) keyboard with synthetic ivory keytops


So is NW-GH the same as NW?

The name suggests that it's actually the existing GH action (i.e. 2-sensor) but with wooden sides?

Thank you in advance. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 10:12 AM
Kawai James... If you look well in Features you will find:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/stagepianos/cpstage/cp4_stage/

- The perfect piano touch and response

Wooden keys
The CP4 STAGE features wooden keys with synthetic ivory keytops and a Graded Hammer action similar to that of a grand piano (the keys in the lower register are heavier and the keys in the upper register are lighter).

Yamaha's innovative GH3 keyboard has three sensors: in addition to two sensors to detect keystroke strength, it includes Yamaha’s original Damper Sensor. This enables you to use advanced techniques such as playing the same note repeatedly with perfect articulation, previously only possible on a grand piano, which blends sounds without the use of the damper pedal. You also enjoy the keyboard touch of a grand piano, including keys with weight gradations – heavy in the lower end and lighter in the higher end. The NW (Natural Wood) keyboard, with the same structure as the GH3 keyboard, and synthetic ivory keytops also provide the feel of a grand piano, even the fingertip sensations.
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 10:33 AM
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.


Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Pedro_Henrique


Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.


Why do you say that ? I think most people here really like the fact that there is (finally) a new stage piano , that is lightweight (!) , allround, professional and has a bunch of good sounds. The issues about looping and stretching are nitpicking and hardly important at all for gigging, which is what this board is made for.

The critical notes are actually more a general remark about the fact that anno 2013 almost all hardware brands still use looped and sometimes stretched sounds. And with each new board people hope that they finally catch up with their software counterparts. Which again and again they don't ; hardware development is still on the recycling path. And that is a bit disappointing to some of us who would like to see the best piano sound in a hardware box - equal in quality to software piano's. In 2013 that is still a dream, or only approached in the most expensive boards like V-Grand, Physispiano, Kronos (but that still has many sampling artifacts)...

So the CP4 is very welcome and a nice board. But since where a forum , we discuss all details including the once we'd like to see improved or included. Perhaps when manufacturers pay attention, the next board.....;-)
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
So is NW-GH the same as NW?

From Pedro's quote it seems to be a three sensor NW that is now graded. Perhaps the grading is what we normally encounter on DPs, so slight a differential between top and bottom you almost don't notice it (i.e. mostly a marketing "check the box" feature). But still, I wonder why they are messing with what many believe was a success here? (FWIW, I personally see NO grading as an improvement DPs are able to bring to the table.)

The prosecution would like to enter exhibit A from a CP1 into the record:

[Linked Image]

It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to call glued on popsicle sticks "wooden keys" particularly when the black keys are likely 100% plastic, but whatever.

Smell the wood!

[EDIT] Sorry everyone, I was wrong, the CP1 white keys seem to be constructed not of wooden side veneer on a plastic key but of a solid piece of wood sandwiched between the plastic key top strip and a plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. Link.

Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.

Eager to read your thoughts on the matter after you get it, basically about NW vs graded NW, and any subtle action difference in detail, and the new CFX piano sample. Presently I prefer the brighter CFIII over the S6 in the CP5, so where does CFX fall, etc.

Originally Posted by JFP
Originally Posted by Pedro_Henrique
Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
Why do you say that ?

I think he just means the BBS feature where we can +/- or like/dislike or thank posts without actually posting.
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.

Eager to read your thoughts on the matter after you get it, basically about NW vs graded NW, and any subtle action difference in detail, and the new CFX piano sample. Presently I prefer the brighter CFIII over the S6 in the CP5, so where does CFX fall, etc.

Originally Posted by JFP
Originally Posted by Pedro_Henrique
Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
Why do you say that ?

I think he just means the BBS feature where we can +/- or like/dislike or thank posts without actually posting.


Exactly. I would like some posts instead of quoting to say i agree. :P
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 04:11 PM
Based on YAMAHA's track record, I'd assume the keys on the CP4 are no different than those on the CP1, yet they call these keys wooden-something. Keep in mind that they also claim that the coating on the AVANTGRAND keys is IVORITE, yet as many know, it is a lesser quality material; actually closer to their so-called synthetic Ivory (used on Clavinovas).
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/13/13 06:33 PM
IMO, wood on the sides is pointless. If there was wood where key strikes keybed, then maybe it would be helpful.
Posted By: sh1 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/15/13 12:55 PM
Voxpops...just wondered what your thoughts were on the CP4 given you seem quite happy with the Roland FP-50?

I was thinking of upgrading from an FP4-F for the slightly better action of the FP-50 but am now tempted by the CP4.

However the lack of speakers is a factor...I do have a pair of home stereo speakers that I use as monitors but it's nice to mix those with the onboard setup. Plus there are the quiet gigs where they also suffice quite nicely.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/15/13 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by sh1
Voxpops...just wondered what your thoughts were on the CP4 given you seem quite happy with the Roland FP-50?

I was thinking of upgrading from an FP4-F for the slightly better action of the FP-50 but am now tempted by the CP4.

However the lack of speakers is a factor...I do have a pair of home stereo speakers that I use as monitors but it's nice to mix those with the onboard setup. Plus there are the quiet gigs where they also suffice quite nicely.

Personally, if I had an FP-4F, I don't think I'd upgrade to the FP-50, with the improvements being so marginal.

My FP-50 is for solo/quiet gigs, and there are relatively few DPs with reasonably powerful built-in speakers that are also lightweight and have a high quality piano emulation.

I have not played the CP4, but if it lives up to expectations it could be a great gigging board. It's possible I might consider replacing my NP88 with it, mainly for the (potentially) better action, and therefore finger/sound connection.

The CP4's EPs are more detailed and more authentic than those in the FP-50, it also has more APs to choose from (not just variations); how those APs will play in comparison to Roland's SN piano remains to be seen. There is more functionality on the CP4's front panel, and the addition of pitch/mod wheels makes it more versatile. But it's not a self-contained solution. If you can get by without the things it lacks, it might be a nice upgrade from your FP-4F.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/16/13 01:56 PM
European price ('special introduction offer') ; € 1999

That is $ 2673 (US) at current exchange value. I don't want to startup the always recurring debate why we always pay premium in Europe (despite the crises), but it stings anyway. $ 2199 would translate into € 1645. Is the $ 2199 US price without any sales tax (if so - how much is that actually in most states) ?

The Kurzweil Artis comes in pretty cheap in comparison: € 1100 and often discounts apply. Of course not the same quality keybed and heavier, but at € 899 price difference it's something to consider for someone just wanting to gig with a versatile board with enough useful sounds and some nice controls.

The Cp4 will definitely sell it this price anyway. The 'old' CP5 is still a few hundred bucks more (for now).
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/16/13 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Is the $ 2199 US price without any sales tax (if so - how much is that actually in most states) ?

Yes, the $2199 price is without any sales tax. Sales tax in the U.S. varies a lot, not just by state, but sometimes even by municipality within a state. There are a few states with zero sales tax. New York City is almost 9%.
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/16/13 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
European price ('special introduction offer') ; € 1999

That is $ 2673 (US) at current exchange value. I don't want to startup the always recurring debate why we always pay premium in Europe (despite the crises), but it stings anyway. $ 2199 would translate into € 1645. Is the $ 2199 US price without any sales tax (if so - how much is that actually in most states) ?

The Kurzweil Artis comes in pretty cheap in comparison: € 1100 and often discounts apply. Of course not the same quality keybed and heavier, but at? € 899 price difference it's something to consider for someone just wanting to gig with a versatile board with enough useful sounds and some nice controls.

The Cp4 will definitely sell it this price anyway. The 'old' CP5 is still a few hundred bucks more (for now).

Yes in the UK it's being listed at £1699. That usually means ALL shops will sell it at £1699. Any discounts will not be advertised or will be by providing accessories in a bundle.

Even so, I think that's a keen price, and it will sell. Lots.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/16/13 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by JFP
Is the $ 2199 US price without any sales tax (if so - how much is that actually in most states) ?

Yes, the $2199 price is without any sales tax. Sales tax in the U.S. varies a lot, not just by state, but sometimes even by municipality within a state. There are a few states with zero sales tax. New York City is almost 9%.


Well, that explains something. Over here sales tax (VAT) is 21% ...but as said , even at € 2000 or more, it will sell. There's simply not much competition (yet) offering the same quality at the same weight .

Edit: took out the political part. It's a piano forum smile
Posted By: jve Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 07:32 AM
Some interesting quotes from Yamaha's marketing material:

For the CP4 STAGE, we not only worked on sound quality but also paid close attention to the playability of the keyboard. In that regard, we took advantage of the performance qualities of wooden keys, a new feature in the CP series.

I wonder what this means. Are the CP4 keys somehow more "wooden" than those in the CP1/CP5?

We greatly expanded the waveform data used compared to our previous models, and enabled smoother keyboard control over changes in timbre.

Interesting, but still no mention of elimination of the static decay.

Anyhow, looking at the manuals it seems that for the acoustic pianos, they have dumped the lowest level sound shaping parameters like hammer hardness. Instead, there are 15 variations on each of the three piano types, including mono mode. Unfortunately the manuals don't give any details on how those variations were constructed.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by jve
Some interesting quotes from Yamaha's marketing material:

For the CP4 STAGE, we not only worked on sound quality but also paid close attention to the playability of the keyboard. In that regard, we took advantage of the performance qualities of wooden keys, a new feature in the CP series.

I wonder what this means. Are the CP4 keys somehow more "wooden" than those in the CP1/CP5?


I doubt it, however Yamaha certainly seems to be pushing this agenda rather more aggressively.

James
x
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 09:03 AM
A lot of marketing speak. Could mean anything (or nothing). Only hard facts and specifications speak. "We greatly expanded waveform data..." , give us some hard facts , like from 256MB to 2GB for the acoustic piano alone, and it means something.

By the way, does anybody know if the CP4 will feature sympathetic string resonance ? According to someone in another thread there is none of such thing on the previous CP1 and CP5 piano's. I hope the CP features all the added resonance effects you currently find in most DP's, apart from the greatly expanded waveform memory ;-)
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 01:19 PM
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 02:49 PM
I personally believe that sampling technology has reached its limits. Adding more layers, velocities etc... does not eliminate the fact that we are listening at pre-recorded material from a given instrument at a given time. The static perspective will always be present in sampled pianos because it is based on a static, pre-recorded snap-shot of a piano. I was convinced of this when I played the CA95. Based on the specs, Kawai more than doubled the sample data in comparison to their previous sample set (CA93, MP10 etc.), yet it still runs short when compared to Pianoteq 4.5 (specially the Bluthner)). It's not just the decay, but also the fact that the dynamic range of all the sampled pianos I've played -including Ivory American concert D- seems somewhat unnatural. Yes, you can play soft/loud and in between; however, the transitions between these dynamics are.... should I say it? static. "We greatly expanded waveform data" means we will continue adding a few layers/velocities every few years; even though we are aware of the fact that problem lies in the technology (sampling), and not in its implementation.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 03:02 PM
When might the first user reviews trickle in?
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 03:30 PM
One thing that may be of interest is the additional manual named the "Synthesizer Parameter Manual." I'm not sure how many of these parameters can be applied to the piano voices, or if one can somehow access the piano samples for manipulation using these parameters. (Such as detailed multistage amp, filter, and pitch envelopes.)

http://download.yamaha.com/search/p...category_id=16365&product_id=1816953

Hmm....
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

Thanks Athan for the reply and info. It's a shame that the CP4 omits some of the parameter adjustments that were available on the CP5 especially the hammer hardness for the AP's. However I'm glad that you guys didn't dump the striking position for the EP's as I find that parameter useful especially when I want to "voice" my Rhodes sounds. The string resonance insert effect (key harmonic overtones), I take is in addition to the damper resonance?
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

Thanks Athan for the reply and info. It's a shame that the CP4 omits some of the parameter adjustments that were available on the CP5 especially the hammer hardness for the AP's. However I'm glad that you guys didn't dump the striking position for the EP's as I find that parameter useful especially when I want to "voice" my Rhodes sounds. The string resonance insert effect (key harmonic overtones), I take is in addition to the damper resonance?



Its a shame about the hammer hardness. It's possible that the hammer hardness setting in the CP5 is a velocity range setting: Choosing "Hard hammers" may just set the ff samples to a lower velocity range. (Just as "Brightness" simply controls the LP filter cutoff freq.) Page 7 of the Synth Parameters Manual discusses setting velocity response, but that seems to be for an entire voice--an entire multisample. There does not seem to be a way to control the relative velocity response of each layer within the multisample. But I'm not absolutely sure: That page uses the term "Element" instead of "Voice."
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 07:24 PM
Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 07:56 PM
Off topic:
Originally Posted by EssBrace
The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP.

But, but, the ~$25 the end user pays for the Lite-Brite CP1 logo could have instead gone towards an extra 1MB or so of solid platinum sample ROM which DP manufacturers are forced to use at gunpoint. Hmm, given those metrics perhaps the logo is worth it after all.

On topic:
I wonder if the removal of the hammer hardness adjustment made room for a larger base sample set?
Posted By: Jake Jackson Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 08:17 PM
Looking further into the Synth Parameters Manual has not led to full enlightenment. An Element is one of the things that makes up a Voice. An Element can be many things, including an Oscillator. My guess is that the Oscillator is the entire multisample, with which other Elements, such as the Effects, are combined to form a Voice. This terminology risks causing some confusion, however, for in the Data List document, a Voice is listed as the essential instrument, to which effects are then applied. I'm a little confused, and the instrument has yet to be released. But it looks good.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.


Don't forget the brushed aluminum volume knob. That definitely gives it an edge over the CP4.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.


Don't forget the brushed aluminum volume knob. That definitely gives it an edge over the CP4.


Crikey, yes. One of the best knobs I've ever handled I can tell you that. Just so tactile.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 11:42 PM
I'm curious; do the keys also light up, or is it just the logo?
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/17/13 11:50 PM
Athan, regarding the keyboard action:

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.


Does this mean that the CP4 also inherits the '88-key Linear Graded Hammers' feature of the CLP-470, whereby each key has a unique weight?

Also, may I please ask you to clarify if 'NW-GH' is a 3-sensor action, or the older 2-sensor GH action. There appears to be a degree of confusion over exactly what kind action the CP4 is using, so I believe any additional information would be useful.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Athan, regarding the keyboard action ...

James, it's rather eerie seeing you on the receiving end of this crazy game. Are you really interested in the response, or are you just trying to walk a mile in our shoes? wink
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 04:49 AM
I am genuinely interested in the answer (both on a personal and professional level), otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

However, I'll admit that it's also rather enjoyable refreshing being able to quiz a senior member of Yamaha's marketing department directly on features and specifications.

James
x

Posted By: doremi Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
I'm curious; do the keys also light up, or is it just the logo?

There are allegedly some high-end Casio keyboards where both keys and logo light up cool
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I am genuinely interested in the answer (both on a personal and professional level), otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

However, I'll admit that it's also rather enjoyable refreshing being able to quiz a senior member of Yamaha's marketing department directly on features and specifications.

James
x



We'll , if it is indeed a modern GH action with 3 sensors, I bet that you'll receive your answer somewhere soon. If the question remains to be ignored, it's probably a 2 sensor action; why hide the truth is there is nothing to hide ;-)

On the linear grading; that would be nice, but I don't really expect that on a Stage piano. Not really necessary, but a nice feature of the CP series anyway.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by JFP
On the linear grading; that would be nice, but I don't really expect that on a Stage piano. Not really necessary, but a nice feature of the CP series anyway.


I agree, it's not really necessary on a stage board intended for portability. However, previous noted that the CP4 action was the same as the CLP-470 action, so I'm attempting to understand to what extent this is indeed the case.

James
x
Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 10:25 AM
Now Thomann has it. We will have to wait until November here in Europe:( But the price is pretty good, I thought it would be more expensive.

http://www.thomann.de/se/yamaha_cp4_stage.htm
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by doremi
Originally Posted by Pete14
I'm curious; do the keys also light up, or is it just the logo?

There are allegedly some high-end Casio keyboards where both keys and logo light up cool
Perhaps the CP2 will have light-up keys, and who knows, Yamaha might incorporate fingerprint technology into its keyboard. Just imagine if no one else but you could play your CP1. Upon contact the keys would identify your unique signature (fingerprint), then the keys would light-up with a cool blueish hue, and a -Siri type- voice will ask, "would you like me to play a samba beat for you?" Just freaking awesome-ness.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Just imagine if no one else but you could play your CP1.

This feature would be awesome because I can't really play.
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Pete14
Just imagine if no one else but you could play your CP1.

This feature would be awesome because I can't really play.


Hang on, you are saying it would be awesome if your CP1 would never be played then?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Pete14
Just imagine if no one else but you could play your CP1.

This feature would be awesome because I can't really play.


Hang on, you are saying it would be awesome if your CP1 would never be played then?
No; I clearly stated 'anyone but yourself,' meaning the owner. Once you've registered your signature (fingerprint) into the CP2's internal memory, you will be able to log-in thereafter by simply pressing one of the -88- keys. If, per se, someone other than the registered signature tries to play the piano, a pre-recorded message will state "This signature is not valid; please swipe again." After 3 - finger- swipes the keyboard will emit an alarm; indicating that an intruder is attempting to play the CP2. "Intruder alert, Intruder alert!"
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Pete14
Just imagine if no one else but you could play your CP1.

This feature would be awesome because I can't really play.


Hang on, you are saying it would be awesome if your CP1 would never be played then?
No; I clearly stated 'anyone but yourself,' meaning the owner. Once you've registered your signature (fingerprint) into the CP2's internal memory, you will be able to log-in thereafter by simply pressing one of the -88- keys. If, per se, someone other than the registered signature tries to play the piano, a pre-recorded message will state "This signature is not valid; please swipe again." After 3 - finger- swipes the keyboard will emit an alarm; indicating that an intruder is attempting to play the CP2. "Intruder alert, Intruder alert!"


Pete, I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, just having a joke with Dewster because his CP1 wouldn't be playable by anyone else and he said he can't play either - so his CP1 would be just unplayed. Just kidding around.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 04:25 PM
ando, I 'pologize. I now realize you were disagreeing with dewster.
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
ando, I 'pologize. I now realize you were disagreeing with dewster.

No problemo, Pete.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 06:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vD1Q_C0kgeA

Nice demo. From a Yamaha guy, meaning lot's of marketing blah blah, but nevertheless you have a better impression of the sound and some of the features...

@James; answers your question about GH3 / 3 sensors big time, by the way...
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 07:07 PM
It's an impressive beast. Ticks a lot of boxes. Would even be a good controller board for software instruments (mod wheels, yay!). I'm just wondering how much we will be gouged for it in Australia. We pay through the nose for these things... You guys in the US are very lucky in terms of your pricing.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 07:26 PM
Wow! three different grand pianos. One, the CFX: lets you play really loud and really soft. Two, CFS3: feels right at home solo, as it does with company (ensemble). Three, S6: for cocktail parties. Yamaha has really done it now. And that action: heavy at the bottom; light at the top.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 07:42 PM
At 2:32 he gets his hands confused. Bless.

What amazes me about some of these product demonstrators is their poor vocabulary - he knows what he wants to convey but doesn't seem to have the words so ends up sounding pretty lame - you can play loud and soft! I THINK he wanted to talk about nuance and dynamics but it came out as loud and soft.

The 38 lbs is certainly a great selling point. But it looks fairly drab and uninteresting. RD-700 is much more of a looker.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
... RD-700 is much more of a looker.


As is the Cp1 , of course.

I agree; CP4 doesn't have any special looks. More like form follows function and that's it folks. But who cares; if it plays right and sounds right and is pretty portable too, no one will complain to much about the looks.

Edit: I too had a stage piano that could play "loud and soft" once. Must have been "the best stage ever " at that times ;-)
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 08:41 PM
Me play soft; me play loud; me play off the jack; behind, left and right of the jack. Me no play under the jack.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
What amazes me about some of these product demonstrators is their poor vocabulary - he knows what he wants to convey but doesn't seem to have the words so ends up sounding pretty lame - you can play loud and soft! I THINK he wanted to talk about nuance and dynamics but it came out as loud and soft.

I was chatting with my Dad about this topic ... every marketing musician talks like whatever they have at hand is the best thing since sliced bread, haha. "It just sounds sooo great, the soul, the feel, the, the, ... Mmmph! So easy to play! And you have so many ways to adjust the sound!"

(And after it has gone through their microphone, through their post-processing software, through YouTube compression, and spews out of your tinny PC speakers, like the freq response sounds anything resembling what they heard back in the studio ... but I have digressed from the topic at hand, the CP4.)
Posted By: dje31 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 11:35 PM
Being one of the few big fans left of the CP-70/80 Electric Grands, he certainly glossed over it quickly...and the sample he played was nothing to write home about. He spent more time talking about it than playing an example of it.

Still, there's, what, 15 variations on the CP-70/80? So maybe / hopefully, a couple of them are useful and true to the original.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/18/13 11:59 PM


Nice playing using a selection of sounds, and clear explanation of the main features - great demo. wink

So the action is 3-sensor after all, that's a good improvement.

James
x
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
At 2:32 he gets his hands confused. Bless.

What amazes me about some of these product demonstrators is their poor vocabulary - he knows what he wants to convey but doesn't seem to have the words so ends up sounding pretty lame - you can play loud and soft! I THINK he wanted to talk about nuance and dynamics but it came out as loud and soft.

The 38 lbs is certainly a great selling point. But it looks fairly drab and uninteresting. RD-700 is much more of a looker.
It's not like he's playing The Goldbergs. With that piece it is very easy to confuse your right for your left. What -ever- happened to take 2. The director should've cut at this point.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
What -ever- happened to take 2. The director should've cut at this point, and inform/enlighten Mr. Blake as to which is his left hand. Left hand, right hand... repeat until memorized.

The director was probably asleep, as I was at that point.

(5:49) "And the action you can see is a wooden action..." - did anyone catch his nose growing slightly longer there?

Forget sexy backlit logos and sensuously brushed Al knobs, the CP4 has a Dedicated Reverb Button that will BLOW YOUR MIND!:

(9:00) "This is a cool thing, I can turn off the reverb right from the front panel. How many times has an engineer said 'hey keyboard player, please turn off the reverb!' I can do that instantly, I don't have to dig into some menu." It seems he's used to being hollered at by engineers.

Interesting how he apologizes for the cryptic UI in the previous models. I'd pay money to see the script Yamaha gave him. These "reviews" are so obviously tightly controlled I wonder if anyone believes them at this point.

And are these types of players (invariably rather heavy-handed noodly jazz types, not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with that) representative of CP4 buyers?
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 07:59 AM
I think the Cp4 has a lot of things going for it, but it's in no way revolutionary , other than the weight reduction. They just fixed up things that we're wrong on some previous CP's in user interface and put it where other manufacturers have put it years and years before them already. Simply put the steering wheel and pedals at the front of the car, instead of near the backseat. That's not new inventions ; that's putting things right. Result: a decent gigging board with good sounds and keys for a fair price. But again, nothing really new under the sun, apart from the portability factor (that's where Casio shined first; others 'had' to follow...). I DO like the CP4 very much, but all this bragging is lot's of marketing air...
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 08:06 AM
Yamaha are doing a good enough job so that I want to go and try a CP4. But then so did Casio with the PX5S and Kawai with the VPC1 and Roland with the FP80 and on it goes. What I can't believe is people are pre-ordering them sight unseen and untouched, and they are already being recommended on this forum. I'm sure it's good, great, the best, but let's suck it and see.
Posted By: Aidan Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 08:39 AM
Blake Angelos is just doing his job, people. Lighten up. "Tightly controlled script"? Of course it is; this is marketing, not improv! Do you really expect Yamaha to come out with a message like: "This isn't particularly revolutionary, but basically puts right everything we got wrong with the last model"? I take it none of you have ever worked in advertising.

I think what the CP4 does show is that Yamaha is listening more closely to its users and responding to their needs/criticisms. It's waking up to the fact that its customer base is increasingly made up of ageing weekend warriors who don't want to carry 25kg DPs around with them. That commitment to engaging more with its customers is also demonstrated by Athan's increased presence around this board and on KC.

And the inspiration for this shake-up? Step forward, Mike Martin of Casio.

Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 10:18 AM
For some people the portability isn´t a big thing because they just sit at home. Or somebody else carry the stuf for them:), for me it´s very important. To find a stage piano that sounds good, and feels good and is light weight isn´t easy. I havn´t found any yet. Often it´s the feel that´s missing.

So hopefully the c4 will be what I´ve been lookin´for.
Posted By: Aidan Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 11:02 AM
It would certainly seem to tick most of the boxes. Make or break for me will be whether they have improved on the abysmal mono performance of the CP5.
Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Aidan
It would certainly seem to tick most of the boxes. Make or break for me will be whether they have improved on the abysmal mono performance of the CP5.


I have little or no experiance of the CP5, what do you mean? Does all pianosounds sound bad in mono?
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 12:23 PM
How can wood on the sides of plastic action improve the feel. Sure it looks good but if that's it and it adds weight then I'll take one - just hold the wood. Next they will add fake lead weights.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 12:49 PM
"That commitment to engaging more with its customers is also demonstrated by Athan's increased presence around this board and on KC."

We have always engaged with end users which is why we established Motifator.com back in 2001 before there was even a word for social networking. .

Yamaha staff has literally thousands and thousands of posts on Motifator and that was and still is our main vehicle for directly communicating with our customers.

However the CP4 is a stage piano so we assumed people here would be interested and have questions.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
And the action you can see is a wooden action..." - did anyone catch his nose growing slightly longer there?

Do we have any definite info about exactly how wooden the keys are or aren't? A Yamaha FAQ from a while back says, "NW keyboard: This keyboard has the same structure as a GH3 keyboard, but the white keys are are all cut from the same plank of natural wood, just like in an acoustic piano. Using our wood-working skills gained from making pianos, we are able to keep keyboard vibration and warping to a minimum. We have achieved the solid feeling of a grand piano. " I don't know, are all the Yamaha "wooden" keys necessarily just a veneer as has been discussed?

Regardless of the reason, though, I thought the CP1/5 had one of the best feeling actions I've ever tried on a DP. It is a marketing necessity that companies emphasize features that can easily be described in words, but as I've often said, you should buy with your hands and ears, not from the spec sheets. On paper, the PX-330 had a better action than the CP1/5 (graded, tri-sensor) but I can't imagine anyone actually preferring to play it. So whether the wood is the reason or not, I think there is general agreement that most people really do think the various NW actions from Yamaha are among the best.

The reality is, from a marketing perspective, it's more effective to talk about a wooden action than to simply say it's a great feeling action. This is how marketing works, regardless of industry. You can't just say something is good, you have to give the consumer a reason it's good, and it has to be something quickly digestible and understandable, even if it isn't the most accurate or complete explanation.

Originally Posted by dewster
I'd pay money to see the script Yamaha gave him. These "reviews" are so obviously tightly controlled I wonder if anyone believes them at this point.

It's obviously not a review, it's a sales presentation. He identified himself in the first sentence as being from Yamaha. It's being done for Kraft Music, a dealer. He talks about the bundles you can get at Kraft. How much more up front could they be that this is a sales presentation? It doesn't seem "scripted" per se, but I'm sure he had an outline or bullet points of what he wanted to cover.

Originally Posted by JFP
I think the Cp4 has a lot of things going for it, but it's in no way revolutionary , other than the weight reduction.

Did anyone actually call it revolutionary? Still, being revolutionary in even one way (perhaps quality of action and/or sound at its weight, as you imply) I think would qualify it, if one wanted to use that term. What feature would you be looking for that would make it revolutionary?

For a gigging board (and they do call it a "stage" piano), I think this is pretty clearly the best that Yamaha has made, except maybe for someone who needs built-in speakers, where the CP300 semi-portable might remain best. At or near its weight, I think it's probably the best DP anyone has made, which I think is a pretty significant accomplishment. In second place, I'd probably put Nord, which has the benefit of more different pianos (including uprights), but is still known for its less than state of the art action and its own sonic quirks. Still a great board, but I think it's going to be a tough sell for them at $800 more than the CP4 (and it's a bit heavier to boot). Though it is still certainly possible that people may simply prefer the sound of the Nord, and I guess we'll have to wait until we hear the CP4 in the flesh to get a better handle on that.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
However the CP4 is a stage piano so we assumed people here would be interested and have questions.

I think its a wise move to branch out from motifator.com to this forum and Keyboard Corner. You probably won't find too many dedicated piano players on a forum aimed at users of a particular line of synths.

As to questions, I have a few:
1. How much stretching is involved with the CP4 piano samples?
2. Have the attack sample lengths been increased since the CP5?
3. Are the decay loops processed in any way to avoid sounding too static, and if so how?
4. What does "wood action" actually mean in terms of construction of the keys?

I think this could be a great board, and addresses some of the issues I have with the Nord Piano. It would have been nice to have a little more front panel control over effects (a reverb button is a given in my book! wink ), but it brings Yamaha back into contention for me for the first time in years. Apart from a few weeks evaluating a P-105, and my old PF500 (more of a home piano) that I passed on to my daughter, I have not had a true Yamaha stage piano since my CP30 that I bought around 1980 (I still miss it!). The CP4 could change that.

As to the marketing stuff, I understand the parallel world that marketers inhabit - I was heavily involved in it at one time - but with the increased level of interaction between consumers, whereby technical claims can be tested and results widely disseminated, and the very nature of geeky forums, where spurious claims or wild generalities are ridiculed, a new approach to marketing is needed, IMO. What that means is less of the fluff and more of the real-world specifications, greater openness in the way communications are handled, and a willingness to engage non-defensively.

I think Mike Martin is one of the first to understand that. The very fact that he voluntarily gave us the info on stretching in the Casios, and said that if he didn't we'd find out anyway (thanks dewster!) shows that he (and presumably Casio) believes that such transparency helps sales rather than hinders. Did anyone not buy the PX-5S because Mike was honest? I don't think so. It certainly didn't stop me, but actually made me feel more confident, knowing that I wasn't going to have to deal with nasty surprises at the end of an internet deal.
Posted By: Big McLargehuge Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 02:22 PM
I agree. Most of the people on this forum and Keyboard Corner and others--with exceptions such as myself!--are very knowledgable and will see through traditional marketing-speak in an instant. Mainly because they've been buying boards for ages. Mike Martin and Dave Weiser (when he was with Kurzweil) influenced a lot of buying decisions from what I can tell (including mine). They were honest about their own products' limitations and also never bashed the competition.

By contrast, on a guitar forum I frequent the line 6 rep was on there like crazy before the pod HD came out. He made it out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and who could say otherwise since it wasn't out yet. It was released, people bought it and yes many people thought it was good...but many people had issues and questions, and he was nowhere to be found. Obviously his job was done, he drummed up interest and moved on presumably to the next product. Who knows, perhaps the bottom line for the company was positive so why not do things that way...but many people on that forum were disappointed in him/that company for not sticking around. He seemed like a part of the community and it became clear he was not at all, that we were just a marketing tickbox.

In any event, I appreciate the help I've gotten on motifator for sure from Bad_Mister and others.
Posted By: RonL Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 02:59 PM
Motifator is a very cool site and Bad Mister has done a great job answering questions and providing help - he does a great demo. I check in there all the time for information - I have had a Motif, ES and now a XS7.

However that site doesn't address stage pianos. This site is more of a players board than a programming sequencing board, so it's great to have Athan posting.

I have my CP4 on pre-order, should be getting it mid to late Oct or early November. Looking forward to gigging with it and retiring my CP5 to my home studio or craigs list. Can't wait.

Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:15 PM
Is there anyone else (apart from me) , who is first waiting to see the response from the competition (Kawai, Roland) , before taking the plunge and pre-ordering the CP4 unseen ?

Seems like many people are trading up their gear for the CP4 even before it's out in the shops to be tried or any competing new stages are out. That they will come is expected; of course exactly when remains the question...

I think the CP4 is cool, but I'd really like to have something (other new) to compare it to. It may be that I'll buy the CP anyway in the end , but it makes the decision more balanced. ANyone else with the same approach ?
Posted By: Marko in Boston Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Is there anyone else (apart from me) , who is first waiting to see the response from the competition (Kawai, Roland) , before taking the plunge and pre-ordering the CP4 unseen ?

Seems like many people are trading up their gear for the CP4 even before it's out in the shops to be tried or any competing new stages are out. That they will come is expected; of course exactly when remains the question...

I think the CP4 is cool, but I'd really like to have something (other new) to compare it to. It may be that I'll buy the CP anyway in the end , but it makes the decision more balanced. ANyone else with the same approach ?


Im with you 100%. Yes the CP4 seems great. However, I am patiently waiting for 2014 NAMM Show, January 23-26. I think Kawai will have some exciting new MPs. Also, Im very curious to see if Roland will roll out the next RDs. How they top their 700nx will be very interesting.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Is there anyone else (apart from me) , who is first waiting to see the response from the competition (Kawai, Roland) , before taking the plunge and pre-ordering the CP4 unseen ?

I imagine that there are plenty of people interested in it, but won't buy it sight unseen, and will wait for it to appear on the showroom floor. But as for waiting for competition, well, you can always wait, there's pretty much always something new on the horizon from someone, or at least, you can never be sure there isn't! The question is (a) whether you actually need something now, or (b) whether something is in itself compelling enough to prompt you to upgrade regardless. Because no matter what, you can always wait six months to see if there will be something better, and that will be as true six months from now as it is today.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Do we have any definite info about exactly how wooden the keys are or aren't? A Yamaha FAQ from a while back says, "NW keyboard: This keyboard has the same structure as a GH3 keyboard, but the white keys are are all cut from the same plank of natural wood, just like in an acoustic piano. Using our wood-working skills gained from making pianos, we are able to keep keyboard vibration and warping to a minimum. We have achieved the solid feeling of a grand piano. " I don't know, are all the Yamaha "wooden" keys necessarily just a veneer as has been discussed?

To have "the same structure as a GH3" the white keys almost have to be hollow plastic inside. Kind of telling they don't mention the black keys at all. Using veneer from the same plank for a given set of keys might keep down color / grain variation, but given the high levels of prevarication by Yamaha surrounding the NW action (all of it working in their favor) I'd need external proof.

From a manufacturing and inventory perspective, building and tracking a set of keys for "same plank consistency" seems like it would be a nightmare - e.g. if a line worker breaks a key while installing it, do they throw out the whole matched set? Of course not, so why bother in the first place. The claim doesn't pass the smell test.

Regardless, given the overall weight of the CP4 I'd say there's no way there are solid wood keys in there.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
It's obviously not a review, it's a sales presentation. He identified himself in the first sentence as being from Yamaha. It's being done for Kraft Music, a dealer. He talks about the bundles you can get at Kraft. How much more up front could they be that this is a sales presentation?

If he had just demoed it, along with pointing out features in a factual way, OK, but the second he expressed a value judgement he stepped into "review" territory IMO. I have strong feelings about this - being paid to spout or otherwise offer up positive personal opinions about a product is edging into lying-for-profit territory, which is immoral and in some cases illegal.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
It doesn't seem "scripted" per se, but I'm sure he had an outline or bullet points of what he wanted to cover.

"Scripted" is too strong a word, I shouldn't have used it. "Talking points" is more what I meant. And I'd still like to be privy to their contents and source. When it comes to marketing things don't generally just casually happen.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Did anyone actually call it revolutionary?

That was the general vibe from the guy in the video, piling on the superlatives.

[EDIT] Sorry everyone, I was wrong, the CP1 white keys seem to be constructed not of wooden side veneer on a plastic key but of a solid piece of wood sandwiched between the plastic key top strip and a plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. Link.
Posted By: bfb Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Is there anyone else (apart from me) , who is first waiting to see the response from the competition (Kawai, Roland) , before taking the plunge and pre-ordering the CP4 unseen ?

Seems like many people are trading up their gear for the CP4 even before it's out in the shops to be tried or any competing new stages are out. That they will come is expected; of course exactly when remains the question...

I think the CP4 is cool, but I'd really like to have something (other new) to compare it to. It may be that I'll buy the CP anyway in the end , but it makes the decision more balanced. ANyone else with the same approach ?


isn't Yamaha more responding to Roland's FP50/80 and Kawai's ES7 than the other way around? seems like they all occupy the same niche. maybe yamaha now has a leg up since the board may spec out as offering more at the moment, but as people seems to be saying- this is an evolution/clean-up trade vs anything revolutionary.

I got caught up in the last "revolutionary" moment and bought a v-piano. and that ain't ever happening again. i'll take the more incremental move forward and stay around the sweet spot 2 grand price point.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 03:49 PM
I agree with BFB.

I don't know if this has been discussed already, please forgive me if it has. I have been researching the CP4 to see if it includes sympathetic resonance as one of it's features. I came up with zipp, so I assume it doesn't. Does anyone know?

Thanks
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by bfb

isn't Yamaha more responding to Roland's FP50/80 and Kawai's ES7 than the other way around? seems like they all occupy the same niche.

Right, it's a never ending cycle, everything can be seen as a response to something else, and everything will generate a new response from someone else.

OTOH, though, I would say that the FP50/80/ES7 could also be seen as a slightly different niche, as they all have speakers, and very limited functionality as MIDI controllers. In that respect, the CP4/40 might be seen as a bit closer to the RD-300NX/RD-700NX/MP6.

It's a shame that it is so difficult to find a stage piano that has speakers that ALSO functions well as a MIDI controller (multiple zones, pitch and mod wheels, storable presets that include MIDI program changes, etc.). Yamaha, Kawai, and Roland pretty much split them as mentioned above, Casio does the same in the split between the PX-350 and PX-5S, and Yamaha does it on their lower end as well between the functionality of the CP33 and P155. The only exceptions I am aware of are the Kurzweil SPS4-8 and the Yamaha CP-300. Considering the age and weight of the latter, It would be great to see a CP-4 and/or CP-40 variant with speakers.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It would be great to see a CP-4 and/or CP-40 variant with speakers.

I wonder if that will be the P-165 (or whatever designation Yamaha chooses).

Going back to the discussion about marketing and rep involvement on these forums, I do think that (as BigMcLargehuge pointed out), particularly in respect of pianos and high end keyboards, they are generally talking to a very clued-in sector of the public, who are perhaps less gullible or easily swayed by vague half-truths or fancy acronyms.

The proof of the pudding with the CP4 is to see whether we get direct answers to the questions people have been posing here.
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 04:33 PM
I'm a little surprised at the level of feeling about this video. To me, it's so transparent that it's a love fest for the product, it can't even be considered dishonest. It's just a Yamaha rep pointing out the best features of a product. It's not like he actually lied about anything. And the sound is there to be heard. The only thing we can't verify is how good this new keyboard feels. Kraft has these kinds of ads for all their products with many brands. I see it as no big deal. Other people are bound to come along and give it a real balanced review once more of them enter the population. Til then, of course Yamaha wants to sell a few of them! Let em have their fun, I say. It's nice to see they have listened to the feedback that was out there and have actually significantly improved the product. I'll be happy to try one out if I get the chance.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 04:40 PM
I agree, ando. I didn't expect much different from the video - I generally "listen between the lines" and ignore the sales waffle. I did think it was a little silly making such a song and dance about the reverb button, which should be there on any stage board (and pretty much used to be). That said, the guy demonstrated it quite well.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It would be great to see a CP-4 and/or CP-40 variant with speakers.

I wonder if that will be the P-165 (or whatever designation Yamaha chooses).

I'll go for CP-400 as the CP-4 series version of the CP-300. ;-)

Back to the Kraft video, I agree, I think it was very well done.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Is there anyone else (apart from me) , who is first waiting to see the response from the competition (Kawai, Roland) , before taking the plunge and pre-ordering the CP4 unseen ?

If there was any indication that Kawai and Roland won't just repeat the pattern of reserving their better sound/action for their heavyweight boards then I'd be inclined to hold off. It's worth noting that both the CP4 and the lesser CP40 weigh essentially the same (except that one includes an internal power supply), and that that weight is manageable.

Kawai seems to have no interest in making a lighter board as their "best stage piano ever." Roland could conceivably come out with something at the weight of the 300NX that includes all their best SN pianos/EPs, but I'm not holding my breath.

The CP4 seems to tick a lot of boxes. However, if the stretching, looping and lack of sympathetic resonance impact the overall sound noticeably, then it might be worth holding off until the expected announcements. Both Kawai and Roland provide 88-note sampling, full resonance, and, in Roland's case, no overt looping.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 05:12 PM
Why can some manufacturers put together a DP with built-in speakers and keep the weight light enough, while "Y" makes tanks. Sure, they'll probably say using small light speakers is not up to our standards. Maybe, my Roland isn't the greatest fidelity, but it's very handy for many situations.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 06:15 PM
I guess I just expect more from Yamaha. I mean, it's not like they're scrabbling up from the bottom, they're probably #1 in name recognition and sales. Why is their marketing department playing the refs so hard when they've arguably dominated the game for quite some time now?

For me their lies by omission and half truths have added up to the point where I don't trust anything they say about their keys or sound engines. Which hurts their brand / image, which you would think would be a corporate cardinal sin.

This is one instance where I wish "jumping off of cliffs" were a part of "but, but they all do it!"
Posted By: torhu Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/19/13 06:56 PM
The emphasis put on how easy the CP4 is to use in the video is basically admitting that the CP5 was hard to use. I think they deserve some credit for at least acknowledging that they are aware of the issue, even if this is the way they chose to do it.

Claiming that the keys are "natural wood" is not classy, though.

Anyway, both the various piano sounds and the Rhodes sound great in the video. Guess I'll have to check it out when it arrives at the stores. Crossing fingers it's not better than my RD laugh
Posted By: scorpio Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by bfb
isn't Yamaha more responding to Roland's FP50/80 and Kawai's ES7 than the other way around? seems like they all occupy the same niche.

I'm not so sure that is true. I do believe the CP-4 is after a different market. Two One items to note, 1) no three pedal support, 2) lack of a "furniture" stand. I just think it's a different type of player all together.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
It would be great to see a CP-4 and/or CP-40 variant with speakers.

I completely agree. And that would compete with the FP50/80 and ES7 market, I think.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by scorpio
Two items to note, 1) no three pedal support,

I'm not sure that's quite right. From what I recall, the CP4 has four sockets for pedals, so I believe you can attach the three standard piano pedals plus something like an expression pedal, for example.
Posted By: scorpio Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
I believe you can attach the three standard piano pedals plus something like an expression pedal, for example.

You are correct. I misread the specifications. Thank you!
Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 10:25 PM
Does the CP4 support a continuous pedal like the CP5?
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/19/13 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
I don't know if this has been discussed already, please forgive me if it has. I have been researching the CP4 to see if it includes sympathetic resonance as one of it's features. I came up with zipp, so I assume it doesn't. Does anyone know?

Originally Posted by voxpops
The CP4 seems to tick a lot of boxes. However, if the stretching, looping and lack of sympathetic resonance...

From here up thread:

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
The CP1, 5, and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

I assume that answers the question? I'd be kind of amazed if the CP4 didn't have sympathetic resonance. "String resonance" usually means key sympathetic resonance, but DPs that have key sympathetic resonance always have pedal sympathetic resonance. Roundabout semi-proof.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 12:29 AM
Thanks, dewster, I missed that (or spaced out at the critical moment!).
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 12:57 AM
I'd strongly advise all those that are talking about placing preorders to wait until the board is released and you can actually play it and hear the sound yourself.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by emenelton
I don't know if this has been discussed already, please forgive me if it has. I have been researching the CP4 to see if it includes sympathetic resonance as one of it's features. I came up with zipp, so I assume it doesn't. Does anyone know?

Originally Posted by voxpops
The CP4 seems to tick a lot of boxes. However, if the stretching, looping and lack of sympathetic resonance...

From here up thread:

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
The CP1, 5, and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.



I assume that answers the question? I'd be kind of amazed if the CP4 didn't have sympathetic resonance. "String resonance" usually means key sympathetic resonance, but DPs that have key sympathetic resonance always have pedal sympathetic resonance. Roundabout semi-proof.


Doesn't string resonance mean the pedal is held down?
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 03:53 AM
There seem to be slightly different terms floating around for the same thing. Nearly all current DPs have damper resonance, but only a few have sympathetic resonance. I think it needs to be confirmed what Athan means by string resonance.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by voxpops
There seem to be slightly different terms floating around for the same thing. Nearly all current DPs have damper resonance, but only a few have sympathetic resonance. I think it needs to be confirmed what Athan means by string resonance.



He means It does not have sympathetic resonance.
Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 07:57 AM
Of course the cp4 will be best at AP and EP, but what can I expect from the other sounds, strings, synth and organ. They say all these sounds are from the motif? I have no experiance of the motif so it doesn´t help me so much.


Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 09:56 AM
This probably isn't very helpful but I was messing around with a little digital recorder the other day and my CP1. I recorded something, can't remember what, using the S6 voice, which I quite like for slower, more reflective type of stuff.

Anyway I listened back to it later that day and the recorder (one of those funny little Zoom things) just went on to play through other stuff I had left on it. Started with some weird quadrophonic transcriptions into stereo I'd found on YouTube (Marvin Gaye's Let's Get it On among them - worth a listen to hear how a 70s quad mix reduces to stereo!). Anyway there was about a dozen audio files on the thing some of which I probably had never played back.

Towards the end there was more of me on a DP, which I struggled to place initially (I've had so many of the bloody things). Then it all came flooding back and it was the Nord Piano's Fazioli. Let me tell you it is MILES and MILES ahead of anything else on a hardware DP in terms of realism. I actually wondered if it was something I had recorded off a real piano for the first few seconds.

I think there is maybe one and a half advantages the Yamahas have over the Nord. The first full point goes to the action. That is beyond debate. I'd give a half point to the Yamaha for its EPs, which although not sonically nicer or more accurate or more varied than the Nord's, are of what I'd call higher resolution and yes, they are better for that.

But key action aside, the Nord is easy to use (the most intuitive of all in my opinion), light, and just has totally killer AP sounds with more variety and character than anything else - by a huge margin.

With the CP4 I don't see that Yamaha has moved the game forward in a wider sense at all. They have moved the game forward for Yamaha, yes, due to the UI and lower weight. But they've brought nothing new to the table for those used to the other leading DPs out there.

I really miss my Nord Piano for its AP sounds. I don't regret getting the CP1 because the action is just sublime and I like the EPs and APs and it is a beautiful thing. But as Dr Popper says above, play the CP4 before ordering. I can promise you that it will get nowhere near the Nord's APs.

Steve
Posted By: maurus Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 10:35 AM
Steve, thanks for this post - I can fully underwrite everything you say about the Nord and its comparison with Yamaha offerings. While I have not yet played the new CP4 I tried out the CP5 several times and its action was classy, much better than the Nord, and I equally like the good old Yamaha GH action. However, in terms of sound, with the Fazioli or the Bösendorfer, the Nord is still a substantial step up, and for me there is no contest which AP sound I prefer. Add to that, as you say, the extremely intuitive interface of the Nords.

Since I play the AP's of my Nord from Kawai's VPC1 (at home - out and about its still the Nord) the big point in favour of the Yamahas is gone (action), and actually if I should buy a new DP now my main desire would be to get even better sounds from Clavia, with the same intuitive interface, and - finally - a pianistically serious action.

Nevertheless, the CP4 seems a very interesting offering for an allround package and I'd like to test it out.

Of course the *real* desire always goes to the real thing, an acoustic piano, and I bet you'd agree wink
Posted By: Big McLargehuge Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 01:39 PM
Regarding the "other sounds":

I owned a motif classic for years. That was replaced by the ES, then the XS, then the XF. I'm not sure whether the Motif sounds on this board are from the XS or XF.

In any event, from what I've heard of the mox8 and s90XS--both of which have Motif XS sounds, and I've played them a number of times as possible purchases--the XS sounds are very nice. I think they are a fair bit better than my original Motif, and that did a good job as a "cover all bases" board in my cover band. Organ was definitely not a strong point though. My Motif sounded thin and wimpy when it came to the "fat synth" department IMO, but the XS seems better on the synths. EP, strings, horns, pads all sound good to me.

As others have mentioned, if Yamaha would develop a modeled organ similar to the KB3 on the Kurzweils--which I like a lot--they'd have a monster, at least for a certain group that would include me! While I don't play organ primarily on a weighted board, ideally for live use I'd like either of my two boards to be able to cover everything to some extent. That's the database programmer side of me, I like safety and backups smile Never mind that keyboards rarely fail...but I have had that happen to me years ago. It also helps with practice and small gigs (like 1-set benefits) to get by with one board--though I'd probably bring my Kurzweil anyway since I play organ slightly more than piano.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by maurus
Since I play the AP's of my Nord from Kawai's VPC1...

Of course the *real* desire always goes to the real thing, an acoustic piano, and I bet you'd agree wink


Lucky lucky man! Nord's sounds with Kawai's action. Doesn't get better than that with hardware. I controlled my Nord with MP10 for a few months and that was very satisfying. But I struggled with the clutter of having two boards out at the same time.

And yes, fully agree with your last point!
Posted By: david_ka Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 02:18 PM
I´m a pianoplayer that uses organ sounds in some songs. I don´t really play organ but it is still important that it sounds good. I have a Nord electro 3 so I could use that for organ and the cp4 as piano but it would be very nice to have all in one keyboard. At least a usable organ. In a small gig it could be a little overkill with to keyboards.
So if the organ is really bad in the cp4, I might skip it.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by voxpops
There seem to be slightly different terms floating around for the same thing. Nearly all current DPs have damper resonance, but only a few have sympathetic resonance. I think it needs to be confirmed what Athan means by string resonance.



He means It does not have sympathetic resonance.


Does the string resonance feature on the Yamaha's work only when the damper pedal is depressed?

Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by david_ka
So if the organ is really bad in the cp4, I might skip it.

It took Yamaha a long, long time to discover what most stage keyboard players want in terms of organ (and, to a certain extent, EPs). Those who are old enough to remember the Yamaha Electone organs of the '60s and '70s will know what I mean! eek As a result, I would never look to Yamaha for classic B3 sounds, although that's not to say that there won't be some really good ones in the CP4.

In the EP arena, I will accept that people doing covers of '80s ballads may well gravitate to FM (DX7) sounds, but the rest of the gigging population wants the classic vibe of Rhodes and Wurlitzer. Thankfully, since the advent of the reborn CP series, Yamaha has excelled in that area.
Posted By: Speedy Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 03:06 PM
The organ tones on the CP-4 if coming from Motif XS/XF will be good enough to get by. Yamaha needs to develop a better leslie sim. I was hoping the leslie sim on the CP-4 would be better than the one on the CP-5. Based on the Kraft Music demo it sounds a little better to my ears but not great. At least you can now trigger it from a mod wheel. I ordered a CP-5 and sent it back when I discovered the announcement of the CP-4. A rule of thumb for me is to never purchase a keyboard without playing it first. But I had no choice. There was a 30 day return policy and CP-4's have not hit the stores. So, I took a chance. I have to wait until the end of November, but the CP-4 is on order. This is going to be the longest two months of my life...
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by david_ka
I´m a pianoplayer that uses organ sounds in some songs. I don´t really play organ but it is still important that it sounds good. I have a Nord electro 3 so I could use that for organ and the cp4 as piano but it would be very nice to have all in one keyboard. At least a usable organ. In a small gig it could be a little overkill with to keyboards.
So if the organ is really bad in the cp4, I might skip it.

I don't know which motif-based organ sounds are in the CP4, but the motif organ sounds in the MOX, while not clonewheel quality, have been quite sufficient for me on numerous gigs.

There are other solutions, too, If you have an iPad, you should be able to use the CP4's MIDI zoning functionality to easily incorporate organ from apps like GarageBand or Galileo. Also, If there is enough editability in the CP4 to turn off their own rotary effect, you'd have the option of sending the organ sound to an external rotary effect (Ventilator, Burn) which would greatly improve those organ sounds (and would be useful for improving your Nord as well).
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
"That commitment to engaging more with its customers is also demonstrated by Athan's increased presence around this board and on KC."

We have always engaged with end users which is why we established Motifator.com back in 2001 before there was even a word for social networking. .

Yamaha staff has literally thousands and thousands of posts on Motifator and that was and still is our main vehicle for directly communicating with our customers.

However the CP4 is a stage piano so we assumed people here would be interested and have questions.


In light of the above, I'm still hoping for a response to these questions:

Originally Posted by voxpops
1. How much stretching is involved with the CP4 piano samples?
2. Have the attack sample lengths been increased since the CP5?
3. Are the decay loops processed in any way to avoid sounding too static, and if so how?
4. What does "wood action" actually mean in terms of construction of the keys?


And also confirmation of this:
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
He means It does not have sympathetic resonance.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
"That commitment to engaging more with its customers is also demonstrated by Athan's increased presence around this board and on KC."

We have always engaged with end users which is why we established Motifator.com back in 2001 before there was even a word for social networking. .

Yamaha staff has literally thousands and thousands of posts on Motifator and that was and still is our main vehicle for directly communicating with our customers.

However the CP4 is a stage piano so we assumed people here would be interested and have questions.


In light of the above, I'm still hoping for a response to these questions:

Originally Posted by voxpops
1. How much stretching is involved with the CP4 piano samples?
2. Have the attack sample lengths been increased since the CP5?
3. Are the decay loops processed in any way to avoid sounding too static, and if so how?
4. What does "wood action" actually mean in terms of construction of the keys?


And also confirmation of this:
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
He means It does not have sympathetic resonance.
Yamaha will not state how much stretching is involved, because for that they will first have to admit that their samples are indeed stretched.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yamaha will continue beating around the bush when it comes to specifics; Generic is what they do. "We've greatly expanded our wavefrom data."


If this is true, then I fail to see the logic of having someone come on the forum merely to repeat what's in the published specs or the marketing blurb. It's often these other, unpublicized facts that interest people here.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 04:55 PM
And I want to know why Yamaha makes the peculiar marketing claim that solid wooden keys have superior stability (resistance to temp. and humidity effects) versus laminate construction.

Now, I completely accept that solid wooden keys are the norm on acoustic pianos, and the selection and decision for using one homogeneous, solid piece of wood (typically spruce) may be desirable for certain tactile and other properties, as well as the rich tradition. And that is more than fine.

However, I just can't understand why Yamaha decided to promote the feature specifically as being more resilient and stable, versus a laminate construction...as, in my experience, is just the opposite.

P.S. -- I realize this is not applicable, per se, to the CP4. But I had asked this question of Alan, earlier in this thread. My question was initiated after reviewing the CP4 information, which led me to Yamaha's website to see their DP offerings that featured solid wood keys:

Copy of earlier post:

------------------------------------

Hi Alan,

I was just reading the CVP-609 webpage / features, and I came across this passage, which I find curious:

Quote
The Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) keyboard could only be made by Yamaha, with woodworking techniques perfected from over a century of building fine acoustic pianos. Like a grand piano, the keys are made of solid wood that has undergone the long drying process required for use in a musical instrument. By selecting only the highest quality sections of each piece of wood, keys that are more resistant to warping and deforming than those of laminated wooden keyboards are created.


While I agree that an all wood keyboard certainly is more expensive and provides a more pleasing tactile experience...I do question the statement that a solid wood key would be superior, in terms of stability (resistance to warping and/or deforming) than a wood key that is made of several laminations.

It is my experience with guitars, that a 5-piece laminated neck is significantly stronger and more stable than a single piece neck made out of the same wood. This doesn't just apply to musical instruments. A laminated wood beam is much stronger, and can bear more load, than an equivalent beam made out of a single, homogeneous piece of wood.

Just curious as to Yamaha's thinking and reasoning, here.

P.S. -- I am not questioning the incorporation of real wooden keys. That's wonderful. I am, however, questioning the statement that a solid wooden key is superior in "resistance to warping and deforming" as compared to a multi-piece laminated wood key.

P.P.S -- In fact, I am pretty certain Yamaha uses a laminated pinblock in their grand pianos, specifically due to the increased strength and stability. Also, I believe that even some high end piano manufacturers will employ laminated spruce soundboards, especially when they are being shipped to regions which have large temperature fluctuations and/or high humidity.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 05:04 PM
It's a bit like buying a car. The actual model you're interested in may be very, very good, but if the salesman is evasive or stonewalls, it may affect your ultimate decision.
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tritium
P.S. -- I am not questioning the incorporation of real wooden keys. That's wonderful. I am, however, questioning the statement that a solid wooden key is superior in "resistance to warping and deforming" as compared to a multi-piece laminated wood key.


All previous pictures of Yamaha "wooden keys" in DPs have shown them to be plastic keys in all their functional aspects, with wooden facades on their sides. I'm not sure if this is the case on the CP4, but I'd imagine so - how else are they going to get the weight down to 38lb? The wooden key stuff is certainly where Yamaha take the marketing thing too far.

Quote

P.P.S -- In fact, I am pretty certain Yamaha uses a laminated pinblock in their grand pianos, specifically due to the increased strength and stability. Also, I believe that even some high end piano manufacturers will employ laminated spruce soundboards, especially when they are being shipped to regions which have large temperature fluctuations and/or high humidity.

All APs have laminated pinblocks. Laminated woods are vastly more dimensionally stable than solid wood.
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
It's a bit like buying a car. The actual model you're interested in may be very, very good, but if the salesman is evasive or stonewalls, it may affect your ultimate decision.

Maybe. But let's take some other sales examples, ultimate driving machine, vorsprung durch technik, you're due definitely due, more feline than ever, designed to improve your performance, and so on. I've owned two of those brands, but I did not fall for the marketing or sales BS, even though it got me in the showroom.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 05:40 PM
Man, I think you guys are way over-analyzing the marketing. In the end it'll probably just be summarized as a 38 pound gh3 slab with a rehash of existing Yamaha tech, which should fit in a certain niche nicely.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
Man, I think you guys are way over-analyzing the marketing. In the end it'll probably just be summarized as a 38 pound gh3 slab with a rehash of existing Yamaha tech, which should fit in a certain niche nicely.

Not really. Just musing on the level of genuine engagement that Yamaha is offering on the forums.

BTW, I agree with your analysis.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 06:33 PM
[Fly on the wall at Yamaha R&D] Do we want to add speakers or wood veneer to the keys? Both will add weight to keyboard but that wood looks so damn good. It's a winner, let's go for the wood.
Posted By: bfb Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by xorbe
Man, I think you guys are way over-analyzing the marketing. In the end it'll probably just be summarized as a 38 pound gh3 slab with a rehash of existing Yamaha tech, which should fit in a certain niche nicely.


ditto.

and i believe ol' Athan has left the building. the flower petals that were being tossed in the air seem to be turning into bricks.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 07:37 PM
The CP4 can do 0-60 in less than sixty seconds; try and match that, Roland! I hope this lures good ol' Athan back.
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 07:38 PM
Just to clarify...I realize the CP4 is using wood veneer surrounding a composite/plastic core, for the keys on the CP4.

What I was specifically questioning (and admittedly is a bit off-topic), is Yamaha's marketing of their "solid" wood keys on their CVP-609

Once again, here is their statement, verbatim from their website:

Quote
The Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) keyboard could only be made by Yamaha, with woodworking techniques perfected from over a century of building fine acoustic pianos. Like a grand piano, the keys are made of solid wood that has undergone the long drying process required for use in a musical instrument. By selecting only the highest quality sections of each piece of wood, keys that are more resistant to warping and deforming than those of laminated wooden keyboards are created.


Again, I ask...in what universe is a solid, homogeneous piece of wood more structurally stable (especially against warping and deforming due to load, heat and/or humidity), versus a properly constructed multi-ply laminated assembly using the same wood, dimensions/weight and intended purpose?

That is exactly what Yamaha's marketing is claiming.

I mean, all they needed to say was something to the effect: "Our CVP-609 features solid wooden keys, just like on our finest acoustic grand pianos".

Instead, they qualified their statement by making a completely spurious technical claim, which is simply false.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yamaha will not state how much stretching is involved, because for that they will first have to admit that their samples are indeed stretched.

Aye, there's the rub. The entire industry would collapse and heads would roll if anyone let that cat out of the bag. Oh wait, with the SN campaign blitz Roland not only let the cat out, they cut a hole the door so it could come and go as it pleases (jebus bless them).

Originally Posted by Pete14
In terms of decay post processing, we are now aware that SCM does none of that.

Well, SCM probably does that for the EPs, which are apparently synthesized. But I hope Athan's info along these lines for the AP voices will finally put the kabosh on people saying Yamaha APs have a significant modeling (as we understand the term) component. All the Yamahas I've tested are largely technically undistinguished from every other garden variety stretched (except for the AGs) / looped / blended sampler out there.

Originally Posted by Tritium
I mean, all they needed to say was something to the effect: "Our CVP-609 features solid wooden keys, just like on our finest acoustic grand pianos".

And then you'd find out that was semi-false too. Like the AG keys having the tip to pivot dimension consistent with a short-ish grand, and not the 9' they talked up in their earlier literature.

OT: Why do DP companies come to us after the fact? Why not before they build something to see what we want? I get corporate secrecy when it comes to real secrets, but the entire approach here is just so crazily backwards. Like the customer is always wrong or something.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/20/13 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Tritium
I mean, all they needed to say was something to the effect: "Our CVP-609 features solid wooden keys, just like on our finest acoustic grand pianos".

And then you'd find out that was semi-false too. Like the AG keys having the tip to pivot dimension consistent with a short-ish grand, and not the 9' they talked up in their earlier literature.

OT: Why do DP companies come to us after the fact? Why not before they build something to see what we want? I get corporate secrecy when it comes to real secrets, but the entire approach here is just so crazily backwards. Like the customer is always wrong or something.
Remember that guy from TIME Magazine? praising the AVANTGRAND's Concert-grand piano action. He later retracted; thanks -in part- to this forum's B.S. Police.
Posted By: Matt Peckham Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Remember that guy from TIME Magazine? praising the AVANTGRAND's Concert-grand piano action. He later retracted; thanks -in part- to this forum's B.S. Police.


What are the odds I'd be by tonight, watching the CP4 thread, only to find this. What the heck are you talking about Pete? I "retracted"? Are you suggesting I wasn't being sincere?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 01:29 AM
No; I should've said you clarified you initial position. As Dewster indicated, Yamaha implied a Concert-grand action, and obviously, you did not check your facts before re-stating that indeed it was a concert-grand action.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 01:42 AM
Oh snap!
Posted By: Matt Peckham Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
No; I should've said you clarified you initial position. As Dewster indicated, Yamaha implied a Concert-grand action, and obviously, you did not check your facts before re-stating that indeed it was a concert-grand action.


Got it. I don't remember what Yamaha did or didn't imply -- I don't want to hang my initial misread that it was a replica CFIII action on anyone but myself -- but I did check every fact available to me at the time. And when someone in the forum said they thought it was actually a C3 action, I was able to get Yamaha to divulge what they hadn't elsewhere, namely that the N2 was using the C1 Conservatory Classic Collection piano action.

The point being, no one was correct, until I got that information from Yamaha.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 01:56 AM
Matt, I was out of line (trying to be funny, I suppose); honestly, I wasn't expecting you to stop by; I apologize for my choice of words; however, I will say that what Yamaha has been doing is outright wrong. It is one thing to use marketing hype, and an other to outright misinform. They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.
Posted By: Matt Peckham Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Matt, I was out of line (trying to be funny, I suppose); honestly, I wasn't expecting you to stop by; I apologize for my choice of words; however, I will say that what Yamaha has been doing is outright wrong. It is one thing to use marketing hype, and an other to outright misinform. They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.


Ha! I wasn't expecting to *be* by either... I've been so crazy-busy lately, just haven't had time to browse. But then the CP4 comes along, I'm curious, it's Friday, and here I am. smile

Yeah, if Yamaha's doing as you say and calling veneer "wood," that's messed up.
Posted By: jve Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.


Posted By: Tony Chop Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 12:31 PM
Anyone seen the 7 new U-tube video demos on the numa concert. Studio Logic has got the soundboard,sympothetic and damper resonance down. It really does make the piano come alive like a real grand . However I dont like their tiny- sounding Rds. If only they could steal Yamahas felt hammer suitcase Rds, or if Yamaha could steal Studio Logics resonance technigues! The waiting would be over
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 01:05 PM
Interesting you mention the Numa Concert. I started to compare it again against the other boards , like the CP4 and every time I am amazed by how good the Steinway based grand preset sounds. (Not the Fazioli, which I like much less). To my ears it is really pleasant and very good. It's just the Studiologic reputation and the keys are OK but not the best inthe market. Sometimes there are sales thatish the price around €1500 . I wonder if it's worth the try.Onlycare for the main piano sound, the rest is ...
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by jve
Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.

Hokey smokes!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Taking a closer look, the key does indeed be a solid hunk of wood with plastic laminate on top and plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. For me the gap towards the back in the above photo was the tell.

I believe you jve, and will go back through my posts and correct my previous references to this issue. I sincerely apologize to Yamaha and to everyone here for my spreading of this misinformation. I did so due to my own honest misinterpretation of the photos (not trying justify my actions).

How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?
Posted By: Tritium Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 03:23 PM
It still doesn't explain this marketing pronouncement -- i.e. the part where they claim a "solid" wood key is superior in structural stability versus an equivalent which is constructed of a multi-ply laminate:

Quote
The Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) keyboard could only be made by Yamaha, with woodworking techniques perfected from over a century of building fine acoustic pianos. Like a grand piano, the keys are made of solid wood that has undergone the long drying process required for use in a musical instrument. By selecting only the highest quality sections of each piece of wood, keys that are more resistant to warping and deforming than those of laminated wooden keyboards are created.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/21/13 04:10 PM
Instead of us guessing, sometimes rightly, and sometimes not, with regard to these points, it would be so helpful if Yamaha would just step up to the plate and clarify. I was reminded that Athan is a very busy marketing director and probably doesn't have the time to discuss things with forum members, but in that case, why not appoint someone else to do the job? Yamaha, via Athan, seemed to be on the verge of becoming more responsive than hitherto, but the real questions (the ones that fall outside the narrow marketing talking points) are not being answered.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 04:21 PM
Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

Athan did make a good point about motifator providing good interactive product support... Yamaha probably beats everyone in that respect. You just have to be willing to go over to their house instead of waiting for them to come to yours. However, as someone mentioned, there is an issue that there is no area there into which to discuss the pianos, so that is a bit of a hole in their online support presence.

Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

We did have a brief mini-apocalypse a couple months back on KC when Roland's OV Valle showed up on the VR-09 thread. But the sight of all those unleashed, keyboard-wielding beasts lumbering toward him was clearly too much, and so he retreated posthaste to the safety of the Roland blogs.
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

We did have a brief mini-apocalypse a couple months back on KC when Roland's OV Valle showed up on the VR-09 thread. But the sight of all those unleashed, keyboard-wielding beasts lumbering toward him was clearly too much, and so he retreated posthaste to the safety of the Roland blogs.

You guys are hilarious!

I'm reminded of a post I read recently (another forum) where the comment was not about the thread's SNR (signal/noise ratio) but SDR (signal/drama ratio). (Sorry, not calling anyone a drama queen, just noting that heightened drama tends to produce more posts, and that in the end it's 90% about the drama.)
Posted By: jve Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?

Don't know exactly what kind of wood they use, but it seems quite light and porous ... which makes its usefulness rather questionable. Actually, one would think that for the wooden material to make a difference, it would have to extend back to the pivot point, at least -- the way Kawai does it.

cheers
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by jve
Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.

Hokey smokes!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Taking a closer look, the key does indeed be a solid hunk of wood with plastic laminate on top and plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. For me the gap towards the back in the above photo was the tell.

I believe you jve, and will go back through my posts and correct my previous references to this issue. I sincerely apologize to Yamaha and to everyone here for my spreading of this misinformation. I did so due to my own honest misinterpretation of the photos (not trying justify my actions).

How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?
These are from a CP1?, which weights over 50lbs?

I'm making an assumption that the shock of key bottoming out is less if it's all wood...assuming that, then having the key hitting on plastic can't have same feel. Feel free, to teach me on the subject. Bottoming out is my main issue when trying a new keyboard.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by jve
Don't know exactly what kind of wood they use, but it seems quite light and porous ... which makes its usefulness rather questionable. Actually, one would think that for the wooden material to make a difference, it would have to extend back to the pivot point, at least -- the way Kawai does it.


Acoustic actions are made of seriously lightweight wood. I suspect this is the same stuff. Pine, I guess?

Well, to decide whether it "makes a difference" we would have to agree what that difference would be. We've never really had a consensus on that. I've always thought inasmuch as wood vs plastic matters it is because wood has different vibration damping properties. If that's the case it wouldn't matter whether the wood goes all the way back.

The way Kawai does it, there's a long piece of wood that pushes up on a plastic/metal mechanism. One could argue that it's a similar thing in the sense that there's a piece of wood that pushes a piece of plastic that rotates on a piece of metal.

I like Kawai's wood action (I have one), but I wouldn't necessarily conclude right away that none of its advantages are present in the NW action. I've always liked NW (at least, the non-stage version), despite thinking until now that the wood was essentially ornamental.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/21/13 07:37 PM
The Clavinova CLP 990 uses a similar action to that of the current Kawais. At some point Yamaha switched to the folded action used in today's Clavinovas. I think that one of the reasons the Kawai action is so quiet and thumpless has to do with the fact that there are basically no contrivances under the front end of the key (from the player's perspective.) All the action/mechanical noise happens at the end of the key.
Posted By: Athan Billias Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
"That commitment to engaging more with its customers is also demonstrated by Athan's increased presence around this board and on KC."

We have always engaged with end users which is why we established Motifator.com back in 2001 before there was even a word for social networking. .

Yamaha staff has literally thousands and thousands of posts on Motifator and that was and still is our main vehicle for directly communicating with our customers.

However the CP4 is a stage piano so we assumed people here would be interested and have questions.


In light of the above, I'm still hoping for a response to these questions:

Originally Posted by voxpops
1. How much stretching is involved with the CP4 piano samples?
2. Have the attack sample lengths been increased since the CP5?
3. Are the decay loops processed in any way to avoid sounding too static, and if so how?
4. What does "wood action" actually mean in terms of construction of the keys?


And also confirmation of this:
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
He means It does not have sympathetic resonance.


Hi,

It's been busy with the MOXF release happening on Thursday. Here are some answers to questions given some limitations on things that we can discuss without violating non disclosures.

1. How much stretching is involved with the CP4 piano samples?

The Yamaha sound designers selected acoustic pianos samples from a huge pool that included samples from every note each with multiple velocities. They create a map based on what they feel has the best balance and tone. Typically the samples only cover two or three notes, but it depends on the range, the piano itself and the sampling technique. Sound design is as much an art as it is a science. All of these decisions are done by ear based on years of experience creating piano sounds.

2. Have the attack sample lengths been increased since the CP5?

For the CF and S6, the basic samples are we believe the same, (but we will check to make sure) . However the designers re-programmed the velocity, envelope and filter parameters for each separate sample. The CFX sound is of course completely new and actually the largest of the three in terms of memory.

3. Are the decay loops processed in any way to avoid sounding too static, and if so how?

Yamaha uses proprietary looping tools which have been developed over the past twenty years specifically to loop piano sounds. We will not describe exactly how those looping tools work as they are proprietary. However they do use extremely powerful computers to analyze the sounds and divide them into component parts (noise and harmonics ).


4. What does "wood action" actually mean in terms of construction of the keys?[/quote]

The white keys are made of solid piece of wood the same as the CP1 and higher end Clavinovas. As for the question about solid vs laminate being more resistant to warping, you need to look at the sentence before that. Yamaha has been building products with wood for over a hundred years and we have developed many processes for treating and drying wood to achieve different characteristics. It is both about the selection of wood and the processes we use to cure it. We make acoustic pianos, acoustic drums, guitars, marimbas, and many other musical instruments out of wood. So it is legitimate to say that no other company in the world knows more about selecting , treating and utilizing wood in musical instruments than Yamaha.

Finally , in the end, customers should do the same things as the sound designers did.

You should judge the CP4 sound with your ears for its musicality and expressiveness.

We are confident that a lot of people will find that it fits their needs and their budget for a professional stage piano.


Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
You should judge the CP4 sound with your ears for its musicality and expressiveness.

A DP that's stretched and looped can only be musical and expressive up to a point. It's bad enough players have to listen to the same samples over and over, but to have the sample set unnecessarily pared down to 10% of the original size or less makes the experience all the more uninspiring.

Athan, could you give us a timeline on when Yamaha might stop using these crude 20 year old compression techniques that have clearly audible artifacting on their higher end offerings? Korg has the unlooped Krome, Roland has SN, Kawai eliminated stretching, but Yamaha seems content with not improving basic sound playback in their stage pianos. The AGs are unstretched so we know Yamaha could at least do that now if they wanted to.

I don't understand the business model for putting all these engineering / esthetic man hours into an activity which seriously harms the sound, and which could be replaced by at most $10 of flash, resulting in a much better sounding, solo recordable instrument.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 09:57 PM
Thanks, Athan. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to respond in detail. The answers you've given really help to fill in the gaps for me.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Athan, could you give us a timeline on when Yamaha might stop using these crude 20 year old compression techniques that have clearly audible artifacting on their higher end offerings? Korg has the unlooped Krome

I think I can predict with high confidence that Athan will not provide any timeline on future product development. Pretty much no company does that. The famous time that Osborne did that, everyone stopped buying their current product, promptly putting Osborne out of business. (They made computers, for those of you too young to remember...)

But as long as you mention it, I'll point out that I think the looped Yamaha pianos sound better than the unlooped Korgs.

Originally Posted by dewster
which could be replaced by at most $10 of flash

We've discussed this before. Maybe your theoretical machine could be built, I don't know. But there is no reason to believe that current architectures can stream 128 independent samples in real-time out of cheap NAND flash. And that's why it costs $300 retail to add a gig of flash to a Motif XF, and one reason that Nords are as expensive as they are, and why Korg uses an SSD in the Kronos instead of cheap flash. I assume the engineers at these companies aren't stupid, and aren't looking to make their products as expensive to manufacture as possible.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
But there is no reason to believe that current architectures can stream 128 independent samples in real-time out of cheap NAND flash. And that's why it costs $300 retail to add a gig of flash to a Motif XF, and one reason that Nords are as expensive as they are, and why Korg uses an SSD in the Kronos instead of cheap flash. I assume the engineers at these companies aren't stupid, and aren't looking to make their products as expensive to manufacture as possible.

Both Kawai and Roland have used 88-note sample sets for some considerable time, and their products are priced competitively with Yamaha. The real question is why it's possible for some manufacturers to achieve this, but not for others.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Athan, could you give us a timeline on when Yamaha might stop using these crude 20 year old compression techniques that have clearly audible artifacting on their higher end offerings?


Haha, let's be nice. Don't want to scare off the first person willing and able to discuss Yamaha's products from the inside around here.
Posted By: Grazzy Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:44 PM
Hello,Athan I have questions for you. Does CP 4 and CP have the same weight of keys? 2. For me ep sounds is much important in stage pianos,because at big stages is Grand pianos on there.So ,does CP4 or CP40 have the same good ep sound as in my old Yamaha p120? ,because there is much beter ep sound,imo, then at much more stage pianos. Thank you.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Both Kawai and Roland have used 88-note sample sets for some considerable time, and their products are priced competitively with Yamaha. The real question is why it's possible for some manufacturers to achieve this, but not for others.

That's a different question than whether it could be addressed with $10 worth of flash, which is what I was referring to.

But as for your new question, I don't know... but as I've discussed in various contexts in the past, I never buy into the "company X can do it, so company y should be able to do it" argument. It's like telling a baseball player, hey, that pitcher is getting everyone out, why can't you? Companies have different people with different talents and skill sets, different proprietary proprietary platforms they're working within, etc.

But I will say that, until Roland added modeling (SuperNatural) I seem to remember that people complained that Roland's pianos had very short attack samples. WIthin a given amount of memory, you can have more samples (i.e. 88), or longer samples, or a greater number of different velocity samples for the same note, and different companies may prioritize these things differently. Ironically to me, the Kronos streaming SSD architecture permits "all of the above," yet I prefer the sound of numerous technically "inferior" piano sounds from Yamaha and Nord. Which gets back to my other oft-repeated perspective, that your ears and fingers tell you a lot more than the spec sheets do.
Posted By: Grazzy Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 10:47 PM
sorry , Athan ,the first question is:..,,Does CP 4 and CP40 have the same weight of keys? ''
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
We've discussed this before.

Yes, and I provided an example of how a single inexpensive flash has sufficient bandwidth to provide plenty of polyphony.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
But as for your new question, I don't know... but as I've discussed in various contexts in the past, I never buy into the "company X can do it, so company y should be able to do it" argument.

Surely if the other smaller companies can do it, Yamaha, with all of it's engineering resources and command of real APs, could eat their lunch. Sample playback isn't the rocket science it was 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Ironically to me, the Kronos streaming SSD architecture permits "all of the above," yet I prefer the sound of numerous technically "inferior" piano sounds from Yamaha and Nord. Which gets back to my other oft-repeated perspective, that your ears and fingers tell you a lot more than the spec sheets do.

Granted, much of it comes down to the quality and attention to detail of the implementation, but the technology itself imposes a hard limit. A 50GB stretched/looped/layer limited AP will only sound as good as you can make it and no more, regardless of how much time you put into carefully butchering the sample set. In 1-4GB territory things start getting hazy, but that's a different argument (as is using modern compression like MP3).
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/22/13 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
But as long as you mention it, I'll point out that I think the looped Yamaha pianos sound better than the unlooped Korgs.
This is the first thing I thought about. IMO, Korg pianos still sound so fake.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by anotherscott
We've discussed this before.

Yes, and I provided an example of how a single inexpensive flash has sufficient bandwidth to provide plenty of polyphony.

As I recall, you've put forth that cheap stock hardware and a free RTOS with flash should be able to do it. That's not the same as saying that an existing architecture should be able to do it, if that architecture wasn't designed to do such a thing to begin with. I can put a gas tank on my bicycle, it doesn't make it a motorcycle. I don't think putting $10 worth of flash in a CP4 would enable it to stream from it.

But I can only take this conversation so far, I'm not an engineer as you are. But lots of things look like they should work on paper, until you actually try to build the darn things. Maybe you should try to build a prototype! Either you'll find out why it doesn't work as easily as you thought, or you'll have the makings of a marketable (perhaps patentable) design! But I suspect there are hurdles you're not anticipating, because again, there's no reason for companies to be using the more expensive components they're using if the cheaper components you're proposing would work just as well. In fact, since they could still sell the things for the same prices, it would just be more profit for them.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
But I will say that, until Roland added modeling (SuperNatural) I seem to remember that people complained that Roland's pianos had very short attack samples. WIthin a given amount of memory, you can have more samples (i.e. 88), or longer samples, or a greater number of different velocity samples for the same note, and different companies may prioritize these things differently.


I've taken two comparable models from just before Roland went SN, and Yamaha went SCM, and looked up the DPBSD stats. The Roland's attack sample lengths are very similar to the Yamaha's (slightly longer in the bass, and possibly a fraction shorter in the upper treble). The big difference is that the Roland has 88-note sampling.

Roland FP-4:
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.7,2.1,2.0,1.9,1.2,0.8,0.4,? seconds.

Yamaha P-155
- Attack sample lengths are: 2.4,1.9,1.87,1.7,1.6,1.2,0.8,? seconds.

Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by voxpops
I've taken two comparable models from just before Roland went SN, and Yamaha went SCM, and looked up the DPBSD stats. The Roland's attack sample lengths are very similar to the Yamaha's (slightly longer in the bass, and possibly a fraction shorter in the upper treble). The big difference is that the Roland has 88-note sampling.

Roland FP-4:
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.7,2.1,2.0,1.9,1.2,0.8,0.4,? seconds.

Yamaha P-155
- Attack sample lengths are: 2.4,1.9,1.87,1.7,1.6,1.2,0.8,? seconds.



Good point that the sample lengths may not have been that different... yet I don't remember hearing the same complaints about looping on the Yamaha as on the Roland. I think Yamaha comes out ahead even in dewster's own description:
Roland: " the decays are short, and the attack and loop samples are really small, so the looping is pretty obvious on the low end and fairly static sounding on the high end"
Yamaha: "Obviously looped, though not too badly done as these things go."
So it sounds like Yamaha was doing something better. Which again just brings up the point about the specs not being as important as your ears.

But also getting back to what I said about different uses of memory, and companies prioritizing things differently, yes, the Roland sampled more keys, but the Yamaha sampled its keys at more velocity layers (four instead of three), so that happens to demonstrate the other part of the point I was trying to make. (And on a side note, I think that Roland originally sold for about $1500, or 50% more than the P155.)
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by anotherscott
We've discussed this before.

Yes, and I provided an example of how a single inexpensive flash has sufficient bandwidth to provide plenty of polyphony.

BTW, dewster, did you catch this thread earlier this year? --
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2028910/

It picks up off some of our old conversation on this topic. It's not a simple matter of bandwidth, it has to be supported at the OS level, and there may be other hardware requirements for it to work well.

edit: and I just discovered some more info about that, which I will post in that thread.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 12:45 PM
OK, Korg uses unlooped samples. But they fail in other areas where the competition shines , like sympathic resonance, a realistic damper resonance, a seamless dynamic range (no audible layer switches) and a nice balanced sound over the whole dynamic range (IMHO ff notes still have the old hard and cold Korg piano character , reminding me of the M1 days). It lacks the many ways to tweak the sound as in the Virtual Piano Designer or SN engine. All-in-all , the GB's of sample data do not make the AP much more playable or enjoyable than a high-end Kawai, Roland or Yamaha. If Korg had smoothed out the dynamic range , like PHI on the Kawai / SN on Roland and came with some good and realistic resonance algorithms , it would be unbeatable. Now , for the best AP experience it is both crippled by the lack of good processing algorithms and a mediocre keybed. So unlooped gazillion MB's of sample data doesn't necessarily mean the best end result.

What KORG does show us however is that it is perfectly possible to have large data sets with unlooped samples in a budget instrument (KROME). If they can do that, Yammie, Roland and others should be able to pull that off as well. There I am with Dewster ; it's more marketing decisions / clever accounting than technical obstacles - it's easier (and cheaper) to keep on building on what you have available in sound sets and processing engines , instead of redeveloping a new set and put that in a really big memory on par with the current ICT technological advancements. Somehow the manufacturers all seem to keep a close eye on eachother to see who takes the first step in that direction, afraid they'd have to follow. Korg did dare to take that approach , but messed up in some other areas , making it still no real threat to the others. Who's next ?

Does that make the CP4 or any other board bad ? Not at all - for 99% of the people out there it will probably do exactly what they expect of this stage; a good portable piano with decent sound and some nice features for live performance. For the AP purists however ('some' of them can be found here) , it could have been even better in terms of pure AP sound realism at the level of 2013 computer technology. O well, perhaps NAMM 2014. Or the next NAMM,...or the next...

Final CP4 questions:

- Does it, or does it not feature sympathetic resonance (as an insert effect). In the manual only damper resonance and damper res2 are listed. No mention of other types of resonance. Mix up ?
- Is it possible to seamlessly switch between presets / performances ? E.g. the notes of a current sound or keys that are hold are not cut-off when switching to a new preset, like on a Kurzweil or Kronos ?

Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
As I recall, you've put forth that cheap stock hardware and a free RTOS with flash should be able to do it. That's not the same as saying that an existing architecture should be able to do it, if that architecture wasn't designed to do such a thing to begin with.

I've demonstrated, to myself anyway, via a data sheet and a few back-of-the-envelope calculations, that a single Flash part is capable of supporting lots of polyphony. It seems these parts were designed from the ground up to stream data.

DPs are fairly static devices, the pitch and velocity of a note being played are known up-front at the start of the note, which can be employed to best arrange the samples in memory and quickly look them up. The notes are in stereo so the L & R samples can be placed together. Since we will almost certainly need the following samples, blocks of sample can be retrieved via the Flash block-based interface and stored in RAM. So the Flash accesses can be arranged so that they are most decidedly NOT random in practice, and well-designed hardware could exploit the heck out of this, minimizing both the access times and the buffering RAM required.

But even that probably isn't necessary because samples working off of thumb drives and the existence of ROMplers on i-whatevers shows that this can work, even with jumbly storage and lots of OS overhead stuff going on you wouldn't normally encounter in a DP. But these techniques might be necessary for lower powered processors to work in this application.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Maybe you should try to build a prototype!

Better I think to prod DP manufacturers to do the right thing, be all they can be, etc. - bring Mohammed to the mountain rather than vice versa.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
So unlooped gazillion MB's of sample data doesn't necessarily mean the best end result.

I agree with everyone that comparisons of this sort between manufacturers are apples/oranges.

But if you had the choice of say a particular Yamaha DP with identical sample set source, the first severely hacked on (looped/stretched/missing layers) and the second not, but otherwise processed the same, I think you would pick the latter every time (or wish you had - or could have - after buying the former).
Posted By: Bastida Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/23/13 03:41 PM
Hello


i would like to know if Yamaha will include the CFX sample set in a future upgrade to the CP1


thanks
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Since we will almost certainly need the following samples...the Flash accesses can be arranged so that they are most decidedly NOT random in practice

Once a given note is invoked, I agree, the subsequent bytes of data for that note are not random. But the next note, which can be struck at any time (while data is still also being called for the previous note) can be any of 87 other notes (or the same note again) at any of x velocity levels, that's where the random access comes into play. And if the pedal is down and you've just played a glissando, you could need to start streaming that new data while still streaming data from, say, the previous 63 notes that have been struck (for a mere 64 note polyphony example). But maybe your back of the envelope calculations accounted for all this as well, I'm not presuming otherwise, I'm just expounding on why it's not so simple.

Originally Posted by dewster
But even that probably isn't necessary because...the existence of ROMplers on i-whatevers shows that this can work

As I just explained in the thread I pointed you to, I still don't think we've seen any i-romplers that stream from flash, I think they all keep all the data in RAM. But since the underlying OS X architecture supports it, it's not impossible that streaming could come to i-devices at some point (assuming you're correct that its flash storage is capable of it). It still might need i-devices with more RAM and/or faster processors, though.
Posted By: scorpio Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
But if you had the choice of say a particular Yamaha DP with identical sample set source, the first severely hacked on (looped/stretched/missing layers) and the second not, but otherwise processed the same, I think you would pick the latter every time (or wish you had - or could have - after buying the former).

I'm a novice - freely admit that. But does it not come down to the sound? Regardless of the processing, I would still want what sounds best (whichever board is being compared).
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/23/13 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Bastida
i would like to know if Yamaha will include the CFX sample set in a future upgrade to the CP1

I'd say unlikely... there has never been any indication that the samples in the CP series are upgradable. I doubt they would have built that functionality into it without mentioning it. The boards that permit this sort of thing are the ones designed around NOR flash or SSD... i.e. Nords, Kronos, Motif XF.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by scorpio
I'm a novice - freely admit that. But does it not come down to the sound? Regardless of the processing, I would still want what sounds best (whichever board is being compared).

Sound, action and the connection between the two, yes. And it's perfectly true that the boards with the most sophisticated sound engines don't necessarily sound or play the best. That said, if the manufacturers of those that sound good generally, but still use stretching, looping and other techniques that were necessary workarounds in the 1990s, were to upgrade their engines to the best that's available in 2013, they would have superb instruments on the market.
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops

...
That said, if the manufacturers of those that sound good generally, but still use stretching, looping and other techniques that were necessary workarounds in the 1990s, were to upgrade their engines to the best that's available in 2013, they would have superb instruments on the market.

Maybe but not necessarily so. This is OT (blame Dewster smile ) but let's take SN and Roland, no stretching or looping, great tone dynamics, but dreadful sound IMHO. Some like it, some don't. I don't!
Posted By: MichPiano Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 05:13 PM
Hi eveyone!
The Price on the CP1 is very high in comparison with CP4 so:
Who please can tell me and to everybory the differences between:
*YAMAHA CP1 vs * YAMAHA CP4 ?
*I think it is because the sounds that is generated by Phisycal Modeling make the CP1 more expessive (All Eps - FM Pianos), am i right?
*The CP4 its all sample based with some tricks by Phisycal Modeling on the Pianos, Eps and FM DX Pianos and the rest of the sounds is some MOTIF XF sounds.
*Is the Keyboard Action difference the 3 sensors?
*Can someone make a list with all the differences between thouse two?
Thaks you.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by voxpops

...
That said, if the manufacturers of those that sound good generally, but still use stretching, looping and other techniques that were necessary workarounds in the 1990s, were to upgrade their engines to the best that's available in 2013, they would have superb instruments on the market.

Maybe but not necessarily so. This is OT (blame Dewster smile ) but let's take SN and Roland, no stretching or looping, great tone dynamics, but dreadful sound IMHO. Some like it, some don't. I don't!

If you re-read what I wrote, I said that "if the manufacturers of those that sound good generally, but still use stretching, looping and other techniques..." In other words, if Yamaha, for example, whose pianos sound generally good but are stretched and looped, were to increase memory sufficiently to accommodate no stretching, and possibly no looping, they would sound even better.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
If you re-read what I wrote, I said that "if the manufacturers of those that sound good generally, but still use stretching, looping and other techniques..." In other words, if Yamaha, for example, whose pianos sound generally good but are stretched and looped, were to increase memory sufficiently to accommodate no stretching, and possibly no looping, they would sound even better.
I owned a P-80, then a P-90 and got tired of the sound, which I now can see was probably due to stretching and looping. This is also why I'm still content with Roland FP4.
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 08:58 PM
I like Yummie stuff, but I'm getting tired of the same old same old on their boards... I still prefer waiting Kawai next move than buying the CP Stage series, actually. And I don't think it's just streching, looping and all processing that let's the sound to unrealistic, and not musical. Yamaha is more capable of doing better things that they actually do. If Yamaha wanted to define the next Digital Piano Generation, they could, but I'm pretty sure they won't. There is a lot of people who suffers from GAS and buy the same old thing in a new model. They will try to enhance their gain with the actual technology until they start losing buyers to another brands.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 09:44 PM
This is strictly a personal opinion: even though Rolands have the best in rompler technology such as no looping, no stretching, sample interpolation, etc. they still sound and feel worse than Yamaha and Kawai. I would chose any latest Kawai/Yamaha piano over Roland SN night and day. That being said, I still think Yamaha and Kawai should take that final step in perfecting their instruments by implementing those technologies for the sake of tech-savvy people's mind relax wink
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 09:48 PM
I agree... sonically, I would take a Kawai MP10, a Nord, or a Yamaha over any Roland I've heard. But there is a good deal of subjectivity to these things...
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It still might need i-devices with more RAM and/or faster processors, though.

For a processor dedicated mainly to DP playback, with a decent Flash port, the RAM requirement for sample buffering could be quite low (discussion here and here) - less than 1MB, which is a pittance these days.

As anyone who has contemplated upgrading an old PC knows, components like memory start off kind of expensive when they are cutting edge, drop to a minimum cost / maximum value "sweet spot" when everyone is buying them and demand is high, then the price rises slowly, often reaching sky-high levels (for what you are getting) right before they disappear. This makes me wonder if DPs are rather high priced precisely because they employ ancient technology? If so then we customers are getting the worst of both worlds.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 10:04 PM
For me, Kawai seems to offer the best price/value ratio. They are really listening to customer demands/complains. Take, for instance, the new CA/CS line; asides from the known strong points (action, soundboard etc.), these -if I'm not mistaken- are the only digital pianos that allow for note-per-note volume and detuning parameter changes. This can come in very handy when blending the on-board sound with virtual pianos. IMHO, Rolands are over-priced; yes, they use physical modeling; however, their actions are loud and thumpy. The Roland V-GRAND costs as much as mid-sized Japanese Grand, yet it uses the same action used in their -much cheaper- slabs.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/23/13 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
For me, Kawai seems to offer the best price/value ratio. They are really listening to customer demands/complains.

This is my feeling too. If anyone is going to crack the nut of making a DP that is more on par with PC samplers anytime soon it will likely be Kawai (though Casio is something of a wild card).

Originally Posted by Pete14
The Roland V-GRAND costs as much as mid-sized Japanese Grand, yet it uses the same action used in their -much cheaper- slabs.

Not surprising. Slabs are almost always way cheaper than the "furniture" offerings and usually have the best keys and electronics to boot.
Posted By: Aidan Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 05:02 PM
Sorry, but the one thing you can't accuse Yamaha of here is not listening to its customers. Complaints about the CP5 didn't truly centre on the issue of sample stretching and looping. For most gigging musicians, the following were far more significant issues:

* The weight - 25kg in the CP5 is a big lift; even bigger once inside just a soft bag with wheels. Response: Yamaha shaved 8kg off for the CP4, while still retaining a similar quality keybed and the internal PSU.

* The interface – this was "quirky", to be kind, on the CP5. Response: A far more straightforward console to 'drive'.

* Mono murder - the CP5's pianos sounded terrible in mono, collapsing into a phasey mess. Yet this is how most pro players (and sound engineers) will prefer to run into a PA. Response: the CP4 has a number of specific mono variants of all three of its APs. (Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in their playing).

Would it be nice to have less looping and stretching in the sample? Probably – though the Kronos stock pianos are perfect example of how "ticking the right boxes" doesn't necessarily lead to a great piano sound, IMO. And if the keybed feels responsive and the sample sounds OK for a noisy club or through a relatively unrefined PA, that's probably good enough. I've never had anyone in my many audiences come up to me and criticise the looping in my piano sample.

Yamaha have seen which way the wind is blowing - many of their potential customers are ageing weekend warriors who simply aren't prepared to carry around 25kg DPs anymore – especially when Casio is offering a viable alternative which weighs less than half that. Yamaha haven't gone quite that far, because after all this instrument is aimed at a far different price bracket than, say, the PX5-S, but the trend is unmistakeable, and I'm pretty confident we'll see Roland and Kawai following it in due course.

As for the CP4, I'm looking forward to playing one.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 05:21 PM
Aidan, I agree 100%.

People haven't been walking out of concerts for the past twenty years because the keyboard players' piano sounds are looped and stretched. And not only haven't I had an audience member criticize the looping or stretching in my piano sound, I've never even noticed it myself in any of my live playing. It's only there at home, solo, when I'm listening for it. For actual performance, it's a much simpler test... it sounds good, or it doesn't. And to my ears, some of the looped/stretched pianos sound better than some of the non. I don't care what techniques they use (or don't) to accomplish their goals. If it sounds good, feels good, operates well, has useful features, and isn't too heavy, I'll consider buying it. And that may even be a more difficult goal to meet than implementing feature checkboxes.

But I do realize that not everyone here is a performing musician, and just like most hobbyist groups, some people (to some extent, at least) are going to be into the technology for the technology's sake. And that's fine, and maybe a "stage piano" isn't going to be for them. But for a gigging musician, the CP4 looks like a significant step forward for Yamaha.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Aidan
And if the keybed feels responsive and the sample sounds OK for a noisy club or through a relatively unrefined PA, that's probably good enough. I've never had anyone in my many audiences come up to me and criticise the looping in my piano sample.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
People haven't been walking out of concerts for the past twenty years because the keyboard players' piano sounds are looped and stretched. And not only haven't I had an audience member criticize the looping or stretching in my piano sound, I've never even noticed it myself in any of my live playing. It's only there at home, solo, when I'm listening for it. For actual performance, it's a much simpler test... it sounds good, or it doesn't.

I suppose I'm the odd person out here, but just about every time I hear just about any DP playing through a PA I cringe. Usually much too bright, with too fast decay and little or no sympathetic resonance. An unnaturally uniform, plinky kind of sound.

It's never occurred to me to go up to the keyboardist and complain because I realize they usually have to lug the thing around, and the best sounds generally aren't in the most portable of offerings. Heck, the best sounds are almost nowhere to be found in any DP.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
It's never occurred to me to go up to the keyboardist and complain because I realize...

I think Aiden and I were both taking a bit of poetic license there. I think it's pretty rare that any audience member complains to a stage musician about any of their sounds, no matter what they think of them! I think the point is really, the audiences to seem to have a good time and thoroughly enjoy the music, just as we do when we go to most concerts. I can't speak for everyone, but really, it is extremely rare that I see a group I like and find the experience diminished by their less than optimum piano or Hammond sound. In context of a full band live performance and the typical PA in the typical venue, I think most of us expect many of the sonic subtleties to fall below the noise floor, so to speak. (Though I will reiterate that, in my own experience, the no-stretch no-loop pianos like Kronos and assorted Roland don't sound as good to me as some of the stretched and looped pianos from Nord and Yamaha, and it is the bottom line of how I feel playing them that matters to me.)
Posted By: ando Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:14 PM
I find that I can stomach the looping and stretching for the most part, but what really gets me about most digitals in the rapid decay. The fact that melodies simply don't sustain drives me up the wall. I cant revel in a sound that dies so quickly. Even the Roland SNs, which really have no excuse, use shorter decays than a quality acoustic. This is something that has been compromised long enough. Sustain is essential to music-making. In this day and age, it's crazy to have this problem just to save a bit of memory. In general, I'd rather have one single piano sample set with proper decay and no looping, than 3 different pianos, each with poor decay and looping/stretching.
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by ando
I find that I can stomach the looping and stretching for the most part, but what really gets me about most digitals in the rapid decay. The fact that melodies simply don't sustain drives me up the wall. I cant revel in a sound that dies so quickly. Even the Roland SNs, which really have no excuse, use shorter decays than a quality acoustic. This is something that has been compromised long enough. Sustain is essential to music-making. In this day and age, it's crazy to have this problem just to save a bit of memory. In general, I'd rather have one single piano sample set with proper decay and no looping, than 3 different pianos, each with poor decay and looping/stretching.

+1
Thumbs up! I'd really like to have a Like button here on PWF. It would be a lot easier in these moments I couldn't agree more than I already agree.
Posted By: dewster Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think Aiden and I were both taking a bit of poetic license there.

Yeah, I know, I'm weird. smile

And in something of a uniquely uncomfortable position with regard to DPs which unfortunately makes it almost impossible to casually experience them.
Posted By: RonL Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:37 PM
All I know is that my cp5 sounds and plays better than my korg Kronos.

I remember a funny incident on a gig with nord stage the original one. I ran it in stereo w two barbetta amps. During a break someone asked me why I was playing a harpsichord sound all the time.
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by RonL
All I know is that my cp5 sounds and plays better than my korg Kronos.

I remember a funny incident on a gig with nord stage the original one. I ran it in stereo w two barbetta amps. During a break someone asked me why I was playing a harpsichord sound all the time.


Awhile back when the Kronos was fairly new, my friend and I swapped keyboards for a night. At the time, I still owned the CP5. My friend had just sold his Kurz PC3X to buy the Kronos 73 .

His K73 worked out ok, but it was nowhere near the same playing experience with regard to control, sustaining of notes and being closer to an acoustic substitution as my CP5. On the other hand, my friend didn't dig my CP5. He thought the action was too light and of course felt the board was too heavy to carry around.

Before Nord went with the long release and string resonance feature...yes all their pianos sounded like a harpsichord . Especially when playing single note jazz lines/melodies. It's a good 60-70% better now, along with the newer piano samples, but still they suffer from thinning out in higher registers.

Yes like ando said, all DPs suffer from lack of sustain and just overall sounding way too thin compared to even an older, not well cared for, say Young Chang 6' grand.
Posted By: Big McLargehuge Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 07:59 PM
I suspect the reasons pianos sound bad through PAs have more to do with other factors anyway (than short samples). I have to wrestle with our soundman/bass player as he wants to compress,EQ and otherwise start mangling sounds at the drop of a hat. Many bands I see (and some I've played in unfortunately) have mediocre speakers and IMO nothing shows the flaws in a speaker like a piano...also of course the type of music matters, I pick the bright Studio Piano from my pc3 for live use in order to cut through with two guitar players in the band.

In any case, I'm really looking forward to trying this one. I've never seen a cp5 or cp50 in Orlando, hopefully the cps/cp40 will be in stock somewhere.
Posted By: RonL Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 08:52 PM
too funny that Dave mentions Young Chang 6 foot baby grand - I have a line on a gig in Novemeber in a room I played last year that comes with the same aforementioned piano - it is a dream gig. Show up w my ipad and have some fun. Nothing compares to a real piano.

Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 09:17 PM
I play that particular Old Chang 6'er every Thursday afternoon at LA Music Academy in Pasadena. It's pretty beat but is still better then any dp. Here's a not so good audio quality example of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibt8A-ALU94

The singer and guitarist are the students. The 3 horns, bass and myself are there to play with the students. There's usually a student drummer but in this case we were reading a new chart so Tony Inzalaco, the teacher, played on it.
Posted By: JFP Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 09:19 PM
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)
+1
Posted By: Pedro_Henrique Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/25/13 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)


+2
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 12:08 AM
I think this kind of points out that it is easy to focus on things that are easily measured and objectively compared, which may give those things disproportional weight compared to things that are less easy to quantify but can be just as important, if not more so. "Plunky" attacks, and decays that are too steep or too short are more irritating to me than loops and stretches, but these flaws are not so easily measured and described, and maybe that's why we spend more time talking the loops and stretches.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).


Of course, there is one (or rather, two - and maybe another pretender) current DP that will do all that, and more, i.e. you can customize the sustain, decay and various resonances to levels that far exceed that of any acoustic piano, and with no looping or stretching of any sort.

But whether that's what you're looking for is a different matter. I was reminded of that when watching Elton John in a TV homage program recently. The "acoustic grand" he was playing says Yamaha, but the sound that came out was totally synthetic. And the lid was closed, so, goodness knows what was hiding beneath that grand piano shell.

He obviously didn't want a 'real piano' sound for his gigs........
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by MichPiano

The Price on the CP1 is very high in comparison with CP4 so:
Who please can tell me and to everybory the differences between:
*YAMAHA CP1 vs * YAMAHA CP4 ?


Quote
*I think it is because the sounds that is generated by Phisycal Modeling make the CP1 more expessive (All Eps - FM Pianos), am i right?


No the CP1 and CP4 have exactly the same (or almost) EP's and FM pianos

Quote
*The CP4 its all sample based with some tricks by Phisycal Modeling on the Pianos, Eps and FM DX Pianos and the rest of the sounds is some MOTIF XF sounds.


Exactly the same as the CP1

Quote
*Is the Keyboard Action difference the 3 sensors?


The CP4 is graded and 3 sensor the CP1 is not graded and only has two

Quote
*Can someone make a list with all the differences between thouse two?
Thaks you.


The basic difference is the CP1 was designed to compete with the Vpiano price point and its a big heavy thing thats nearly 4 years old and has now been discontinued . The CP4 is new, lightweight (for a Yamaha) has the new CFX Grand piano and a new graded 3 sensor action. The CP4 is a far superior board (and yes its less then 1/2 the price).
CP1 is far better looking wink
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 06:57 AM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).


Of course, there is one (or rather, two - and maybe another pretender) current DP that will do all that, and more, i.e. you can customize the sustain, decay and various resonances to levels that far exceed that of any acoustic piano, and with no looping or stretching of any sort.

But whether that's what you're looking for is a different matter. I was reminded of that when watching Elton John in a TV homage program recently. The "acoustic grand" he was playing says Yamaha, but the sound that came out was totally synthetic. And the lid was closed, so, goodness knows what was hiding beneath that grand piano shell.

He obviously didn't want a 'real piano' sound for his gigs........


How ironic. What you were hearing was a modelled Roland piano sound!
Posted By: bennevis Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by EssBrace
[quote=
How ironic. What you were hearing was a modelled Roland piano sound!


Wow!!!

The great Elton playing a V-Piano?

Hidden in a Yamaha grand cabinet?

Pray, spill all the beans (assuming you've got any, of course wink ).
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Spectral Component Modeling - 09/26/13 08:44 AM
Not a V-Piano. RD-1000. That's the main tonal content of his piano sound with some reinforcement from Yamaha power grand. Under the lid is a full CF-IIIS action, frame, soundboard and strings.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
IMPORTANT NOTE:

Is everyone aware that "Athan Billias" (on page 6) deliberately hijacked and changed the original poster's (i.e., Rhodie73) subject line to "Spectrum Component modeling?"

Shame on him for changing the original topic line.

Isn't an apology due?

Extra note:

The original subject line is:

"Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?

All rights for the original topic belong to Rhodie73.


Athan was a very recent joiner at the time of that post. And a very welcome one. The matters under discussion around that time were almost exclusively about SCM and Athan answered many points as well as he could. The main thread title remains unchanged. I don't see what the problem is Richard.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 09:37 AM
I just now deleted the post you "quoted" as it apparently doesn't make any difference if you do change someone else's "subject" line since as soon as another member replies to the changed post it remains changed. Also, I wasn't finished editing my post you quoted as there is a typo in it.

Question:

I'm just making the point that ANYONE in this forum can change an original poster's subject line at their own whim and should this be allowed?

What if the original poster started with "Beginner looking for digital piano - advice please" and later someone interjects with:

"Where can I find a hot date?"

This changes everything.

Extra note:

Not that anyone in this forum would go that far off topic with changing the original poster's subject line.

But the fact is you can do it.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
I just now deleted the post you "quoted" as it apparently doesn't make any difference if you do change someone else's "subject" line since as soon as another member replies to the changed post it remains changed. Also, I wasn't finished editing my post you quoted as there is a typo in it.

Question:

I'm just making the point that ANYONE in this forum can change an original poster's subject line at their own whim and should this be allowed?

What if the original poster started with "Beginner looking for digital piano - advice please" and later someone interjects with:

"Where can I find a hot date?"

Do you see the problem?

Extra note:

Not that anyone in this forum would go that far off topic with changing the original poster's subject line.

But the fact is you can do it.


Changing the subject isn't such a problem, as the topic title (as seen on the front page of the forum) remains unaffected.

Deleting posts after they have been responded to is something that I would like to see prevented, however. Fortunately, quoting individuals who are predisposed to such behaviour ensures that the flow of a thread can still be followed.

James
x
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
...Deleting posts after they have been responded to is something that I would like to see prevented, however. Fortunately, quoting individuals who are predisposed to such behaviour ensures that the flow of a thread can still be followed.


Quite so James. Which is exactly why I quoted Richard, who is forever tampering with his messages both public and private after they've already been "published" and read by others. It's rather annoying and perhaps even disrespectful to other readers/contributors.

And I agree, deleting posts should not be possible, or deleting the entire text leaving just a full-stop. Previous threads become totally useless when a significant contributor removes their content (that may have been responded to within the thread several times or which may have caused the thread to take a different direction). The whole thread can be rendered almost meaningless then. What we've said, we've said. It's a moment in time. We may subsequently be proved wrong or out of step with others but that's no reason to remove or significantly alter content in my opinion.
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
"Where can I find a hot date?"


Not sure. Craigslist seems to have quite a busy personal section. Try that.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 10:28 PM
I think we are free to post/edit/delete/add to our posts anything we wish as this is an open forum and this is a free America, right?

If we give in to what others are telling us to do, then we don't have much left in the way of freedom, do we?

No one is going to tell me as to what I do - in this regard.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/26/13 11:01 PM
They took 'r' jobs!
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 12:21 AM
I see this blog as entertainment and if I come across a blog, where the OP or anyone deletes their posts, I just move on. In the event that it's something I need to learn, I would just private message. I don't think there's much archival material here. Is anyone going back 30 pages and reading through the threads?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 01:36 AM
"I thought this was America; huh, isn't this America? I'm sorry, I thought this was America!" (South Park).
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
I think we are free to post/edit/delete/add to our posts anything we wish as this is an open forum and this is a free America, right?

If we give in to what others are telling us to do, then we don't have much left in the way of freedom, do we?

No one is going to tell me as to what I do - in this regard.

Oh the irony!
Posted By: maurus Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 09:04 AM
And of course everyone is free to make a fool of her/himself. Everywhere in the world, by the way.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 01:44 PM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 02:24 PM
This is a private forum, not "America," and the mods are free to make any rules they like. The only freedom we have is the freedom to leave if we don't like it. ;-)

Whether the fact that the forum software lets a poster change the subject line of their post (thereby affecting the subject lines on subsequent posts) is a useful feature or an annoying quirk is a matter of perspective.

Kind of ironic that a post about a harmless and on-topic post subject change (SCM) is what actually brought the thread to a complete derailment...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 04:16 PM
So, how 'bout them Dolphins? You think they have a chance this year?
Posted By: bennevis Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how 'bout them Dolphins? You think they have a chance this year?


The Dolphins are doing OK.
But the Red-Crested Newts are having a hard time this year.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how 'bout them Dolphins? You think they have a chance this year?


The Dolphins are doing OK.
But the Red-Crested Newts are having a hard time this year.
They've been dying by the hundreds off the coast of Costa Rica. I wonder if they have a chance at survival at all. This would be a very sad world without any Dolphins grin.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how 'bout them Dolphins? You think they have a chance this year?


The Dolphins are doing OK.
But the Red-Crested Newts are having a hard time this year.
I meant the Mammals. They've been dying by the hundreds off the coast of Costa Rica. I wonder if they have a chance at survival at all. This would be a very sad world without any Dolphins grin.

Were they being attacked by sharks?

I saw a program where killer whales (which are dolphins) regularly do battle with great whites off the coast of California - and usually win. (Victors eat the vanquished....)

BTW, I recommend swimming with wild dolphins while you still can - I recommend the friendly dusky ones in Kaikoura, New Zealand grin.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how 'bout them Dolphins? You think they have a chance this year?


The Dolphins are doing OK.
But the Red-Crested Newts are having a hard time this year.
I meant the Mammals. They've been dying by the hundreds off the coast of Costa Rica. I wonder if they have a chance at survival at all. This would be a very sad world without any Dolphins grin.

Were they being attacked by sharks?

I saw a program where killer whales (which are dolphins) regularly do battle with great whites off the coast of California - and usually win. (Victors eat the vanquished....)

BTW, I recommend swimming with wild dolphins while you still can - I recommend the friendly dusky ones in Kaikoura, New Zealand grin.


What the **** does any of this nonsense have to do with this thread?

Looks like everything has gone to "la la" land as of now.

Let's start a new deep sea "aquatics" thread.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by pv88
What the **** does any of this nonsense have to do with this thread?

Looks like everything has gone to "la la" land as of now.
They're going to eventually go back and delete those posts.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by 36251
Originally Posted by pv88
What the **** does any of this nonsense have to do with this thread?

Looks like everything has gone to "la la" land as of now.
They're going to eventually go back and delete those posts.


Actually, you missed quoting all of my post as I was still editing it!

My post will remain as is ... no retractions, here.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 10:10 PM
We are simply concerned with the -possible- extinction of dolphins; and yes, this thread is out of control.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by 36251
They're going to eventually go back and delete those posts.

Delete my very important posts about my favourite animals (dolphins, sharks and newts)? wink

Not in a million years......
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/27/13 11:09 PM
At any rate, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Athan has given up on following this thread by now...
Posted By: BaR Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/28/13 12:12 AM
didn't go dig through this entire thread to see if this has already been posted. However, here is a demo from Kraft music: http://youtu.be/vD1Q_C0kgeA
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/28/13 09:11 AM
Well, this thread can be put to sleep as long as no-one has received a CP4 yet and there's not really much left to discuss about the CP4 , because most details have been hammered out by now. When the CP4's get in the hands of users, they can revive the thread with their reviews and findings. Until then , what more can we say about the new CP ?? I think that's also why everybody goes "lalala" ; there's not much interesting stuff to mention for the moment. See you later here, somewhere in october ...
Posted By: torhu Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/28/13 01:32 PM
Would be nice if people can start a new thread for hands-on reports I think. Those shouldn't get buried in this thread.
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/28/13 03:48 PM
I will check in mid to late October when my cp4 gets here....in a new review thread.psyched. I have a duo gig November 1st that I am hoping to try it out on.
Posted By: Rhodie73 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/28/13 07:11 PM
Well after going through the manual and seeing some of the customizable features of the CP5 omitted (hammer harness,etc.) plus the lack of sympathetic resonance (harmonic overtones), I decided to cancel my pre-order (wasn't going to be available until the second week of November anyway) and wait to actually play the CP4 myself. I was all too excited about this board (I still am, btw) but after seeing the manual and all of the parameters, I think I will play it first and decide then. It turns out that some of the Guitar Centers in NY already have them however no demoes on the floor yet. I will give them a try first and see how I feel about them. Believe it or not small details like sympathetic resonance really add to the depth and perception of what a player is playing. When I play an acoustic it really is noticeable and enjoyable when I exploit this natural occurrence through various styles of music. Yes when you are playing with a loud or big band it is almost impossible to notice, but I play solo and in a Jazz Quintet and details like sympathetic resonances are noticeable for me.

I'm not saying I won't buy the CP4 because of the lack of this feature but I do know that Roland, Nord, Kawai and even Casio include this detail and I appreciate this detail when I play piano specific material. The weight and action are big pluses to me for the CP4 so I will see after I play one.
Posted By: Bastida Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/29/13 11:40 AM
Hello


during the upgrade the CP1 show in the display SAMPLESET 1




thanks
Well... coming back to the matter of this topic...

Controlling capabilities of CP4... Who read the user's manual? Is this board good enough to be a master controller? Using NWGH3 can make it a better controller for piano softwares as well.
Posted By: Bastida Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/29/13 08:19 PM
Hello


4 zones in Master Keyboard mode , 3 midi channel in normal mode

Another CP4 Demo:

Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 09/30/13 08:12 PM
I like that, thanks for the find.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/03/13 11:06 PM
I only play my acoustic and EP lately, but I always regret trading my CP1 and am considering grabbing the CP4 on hold at GC. Anyone hear anything about a CP1 replacement or is this going to be the replacement for both the CP5 and CP1?

Posted By: StarvingLion Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/04/13 03:16 AM
The Giant has awoken from his slumber. Yamaha obviously means business with the CP4. An absolutely astounding price drop from the CP1. The CP4 will wreak havoc on the marketplace.
Posted By: Dr Popper Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/04/13 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by StarvingLion
The Giant has awoken from his slumber. Yamaha obviously means business with the CP4. An absolutely astounding price drop from the CP1. The CP4 will wreak havoc on the marketplace.



The CP4 has nothing to do with the CP1's price point. The CP4 is a replacement for the CP5.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/04/13 01:27 PM
Please don't feed the troll. (Posters that pretend to be authoritative on the future, always making grand predictions.)
Hearing good things about this from people who have tried (or bought) this so far on Keyboard Corner. This board is really messing with my "buy used and save $$" approach. Can't wait to try it soon.
Posted By: Tony Chop Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/05/13 02:26 PM
check out the u-tube ( YAMAHA CFX Launch ) The CFX acoutic grand only came out in 2010, Its just a baby . But it has georgious tone for the CP4 CFX sample source.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/05/13 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by StarvingLion
The Giant has awoken from his slumber. Yamaha obviously means business with the CP4. An absolutely astounding price drop from the CP1. The CP4 will wreak havoc on the marketplace.



The CP4 has nothing to do with the CP1's price point. The CP4 is a replacement for the CP5.


Any rumors of a CP1 replacement?
Had a chance to play the CP4 at GC for just a few minutes. GC on a Saturday is h-e-l-l and the service sucks! Not enough time on it to give a good review, but a few comments. The CFX default piano sound was very pleasing even with my Bose buds. Great action and feel. Very smooth and similar to the PHA III, but slightly lighter and more responsive IMO. And yes, a little thumpy too. CP4 also navigates nicely, almost like a cross between the CP300 and RD700NX. Wish I had more time to get into all sounds. It was a pleasure to play for a few minutes. Will be great for gigs - again, very easy to navigate, more sounds than probably needed, seems very solid, and under 40lb. I think this is going to be a big hit for Yamaha especially when/if price should drop to $1,999. Would I replace my ES7 with this? Absolutely not, but wouldn't mind using a CP4 for gigs. (I am eagerly waiting for Kawai's MP updates before I buy anything.) Regardless, I will go back during the week when the place is less crowded and try spend some time playing it. Let me know if you want me to check anything in particular or you want specific photos.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 12:56 PM
Nice to hear Yamaha is aparently putting some work into fixing their terrible UIs. That screen isn't nearly as purdy as the NX's, but the pitch / mod are in the right place, and I'm a huge fan of simple, boxy cases.

Even with more wood in the keys than I initially thought, it still seems like a gimmick, and I wonder how much gross weight it adds to the board. And it's kind of too bad that it's graded, Yamaha was really onto something there.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
Even with more wood in the keys than I initially thought, it still seems like a gimmick

That seems like an uncharacteristically unscientific assessment from you, dewster. ;-) I guess the only good foundation for evaluating that would be if the same action were available to try in both plastic and wooden variations.

As it happens, that might be the case. I don't want to say this is definitive, and the information is also a bit out of date and you need to extrapolate to newer models' similarities and differences, and it could be a vast over-simplification for marketing purposes, but the implication here is that Yamaha's wooden actions are basically wooden versions of their GH actions.

http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/musical-instruments/keyboards/digitalpianos/pf85/54/3279/

(Does anyone know whether Kawai makes any actions that are the same except for the wooden construction, for a similar comparison?)

I will say that, for whatever reason, I find Yamaha's wooden actions to feel much better than their GH actions. Whether it's the wood or something else, there is something about Yamaha's wood actions that feels very nice, and I guess that's the important part. (And regardless of the material, I would think that simply being solid rather than hollow could be a factor in how they feel. That is a difference between the plastic and wooden actions as well, right?)

The ironic thing is that, while the wooden actions themselves are presumably heavier than the plastic GH actions, they actually feel lighter to play.

Originally Posted by dewster
I wonder how much gross weight it adds to the board.

Or perhaps more to the point, whether there would have been any way they could have made the keyboard weigh less and still have it feel as good. I would think that whatever changes the mass of the keys, regardless of the material, is still going to affect the feel.

The only other action I've put in the same general feel category as Yamaha's wooden actions is the Roland action in your RD-700NX. Roland doesn't use wood (afaik), so there seems to be more than one way to skin this cat. OTOH, the Rolands with basically those kinds of actions (FP7/7f/80 and the corresponding RDs) have been invariably very heavy. So it remains a question as to whether any action that feels like that can actually be made much lighter, and for that matter, whether using wood may actually be lighter than whatever it is that Roland is doing to get a somewhat similar feel.

While it's still heavy for my tastes, I think the fact that Yamaha got something in that family of actions into a sub-40 lb board is real progress.

Originally Posted by dewster
And it's kind of too bad that it's graded, Yamaha was really onto something there.

I tend to agree with you there. Not that I care much about grading per se one way or the other, but as I understand it, it does involve adding physical weight to lower keys, and if that's the case, if they had designed the entire set of keys to have the same feel as its treble keys, it seems like that may have been a way to shave even a little more carrying weight off the board.

I wonder to what extent the decision to go graded was that they found players to really prefer it, vs. how much was a matter of marketing, that they felt they might lose sales to competitors' graded models by not having that bullet point.

It would be cool if the elements that added weight to the lower keys were easily removable. Then everyone could be happy!
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I will say that, for whatever reason, I find Yamaha's wooden actions to feel much better than their GH actions. Whether it's the wood or something else, there is something about Yamaha's wood actions that feels very nice, and I guess that's the important part. (And regardless of the material, I would think that simply being solid rather than hollow could be a factor in how they feel. That is a difference between the plastic and wooden actions as well, right?)


I agree. I haven't played NW-Stage, but I have played the regular NW and I have always walked away impressed.

Quote
The ironic thing is that, while the wooden actions themselves are presumably heavier than the plastic GH actions, they actually feel lighter to play.


I agree that they feel lighter (referring to the non-stage version) than GH or GH3. However, it's not clear that the wood adds weight. I would think they have weights in they keys that get removed. What matters is whether the added wood is heavier than the weights they remove.
Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I will say that, for whatever reason, I find Yamaha's wooden actions to feel much better than their GH actions. Whether it's the wood or something else, there is something about Yamaha's wood actions that feels very nice, and I guess that's the important part. (And regardless of the material, I would think that simply being solid rather than hollow could be a factor in how they feel. That is a difference between the plastic and wooden actions as well, right?)


I agree. I haven't played NW-Stage, but I have played the regular NW and I have always walked away impressed.

Quote
The ironic thing is that, while the wooden actions themselves are presumably heavier than the plastic GH actions, they actually feel lighter to play.


I agree that they feel lighter (referring to the non-stage version) than GH or GH3. However, it's not clear that the wood adds weight. I would think they have weights in they keys that get removed. What matters is whether the added wood is heavier than the weights they remove.

By the way, thanks for linking to that explanation from Yamaha. Nice to have some official word on the subject, even if it's a little older.
Posted By: StarvingLion Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 04:53 PM
So much for science. All that wasted effort convincing people that the SuperNatural of the RD-700nx deserves a big premium is out the window. Also, I believe the CP4 will finally convince most buyers that software pianos are an unnecessary hassle with extra cable and computer.

Say what you want about Yamaha and innovation. They are providing more for less. Roland and Kawai are just expensive in comparison.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 06:13 PM
I wanted to say that CP5 NW-Stage is more thumpy than RD-700NX, but my Roland sits on carpet and the CP5 on a hard floor, so I can't say that. Anyone know if GC San Jose has CP4 on display yet? I'll have to swing by and check some time. Modesto GC only stocks entry level DPs.
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Also, I believe the CP4 will finally convince most buyers that software pianos are an unnecessary hassle with extra cable and computer.

CP4 = SW piano killer? I don't have a sample of the CP4 yet, but I'd be surprised if the loops don't all inappropriately quiver together during the pedal sympathetic resonance test (chord held with pedal up), as almost all Yamaha DPs (and others) do. Say what you will about SN, but it doesn't misbehave this way, as neither do fully sampled SW pianos.

We all like to dream I suppose, but this is pretty wild speculation given the fact that we all know the CP4 isn't exactly a revolutionary product in the sound department. I'm not following it all that closely, but it seems to be a repackaged amalgam of stuff Yamaha has previously released. If so, then you get excited about it in proportion to how well that package fits your portability / keyboard feel / sound set / purchase price needs, and not because it does something fundamentally new.
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I wonder to what extent the decision to go graded was that they found players to really prefer it, vs. how much was a matter of marketing, that they felt they might lose sales to competitors' graded models by not having that bullet point.

I wonder how much blowback (i.e. recirculation of planted information) plays into it all?

1. Marketing touts a feature,
2. which trains the consumer to want it,
3. so the well-trained consumer demands it.
4. Every other blue moon marketing sort of listens to consumers, and so tells the engineers to include the feature in more products.

But grading is a feature that costs almost nothing to include, so I wonder how much they really even think about it being perceived as a negative by some customers.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
It would be cool if the elements that added weight to the lower keys were easily removable. Then everyone could be happy!

One could easily drill out the weights on PHAIII to remove the grading, but it would take an afternoon. The grading isn't all that pronounced anyway, but if I played it all the time I'd probably do it.
Posted By: kilf Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/06/13 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by StarvingLion
So much for science. All that wasted effort convincing people that the SuperNatural of the RD-700nx deserves a big premium is out the window. Also, I believe the CP4 will finally convince most buyers that software pianos are an unnecessary hassle with extra cable and computer.

Say what you want about Yamaha and innovation. They are providing more for less. Roland and Kawai are just expensive in comparison.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
The future of the digital piano market is:

$600 controller with half decent action (sorry VPC1)
$300 physical modeling software

Prices are going to collapse because the prices of everyday necessities are skyrocketing.

I predict a lot of casio owners will be putting their units up for sale in the next few years. Fact is, Yamaha has a serious reputation in the teaching ranks and Casio does not. Nobody got fired for recommending a Yamaha piano.

I changed my mind about the casio at the last moment and bought a P-105 because its cheaper than a Casio and does the same job. The Roland V-Piano is a boondoggle because the processing element electronics are already obsolete.

Lots of people don't like to hear bad news but a lot of goods out there are monstrously mispriced.



As usual from one extreme to the other..... I love him
Posted By: StarvingLion Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/07/13 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by kilf
Originally Posted by StarvingLion
So much for science. All that wasted effort convincing people that the SuperNatural of the RD-700nx deserves a big premium is out the window. Also, I believe the CP4 will finally convince most buyers that software pianos are an unnecessary hassle with extra cable and computer.

Say what you want about Yamaha and innovation. They are providing more for less. Roland and Kawai are just expensive in comparison.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
The future of the digital piano market is:

$600 controller with half decent action (sorry VPC1)
$300 physical modeling software

Prices are going to collapse because the prices of everyday necessities are skyrocketing.

I predict a lot of casio owners will be putting their units up for sale in the next few years. Fact is, Yamaha has a serious reputation in the teaching ranks and Casio does not. Nobody got fired for recommending a Yamaha piano.

I changed my mind about the casio at the last moment and bought a P-105 because its cheaper than a Casio and does the same job. The Roland V-Piano is a boondoggle because the processing element electronics are already obsolete.

Lots of people don't like to hear bad news but a lot of goods out there are monstrously mispriced.



As usual from one extreme to the other..... I love him


No, its even worse than I predicted. More and more people are coming in here with a budget of *much* less than a $1000. They probably don't even have a dedicated computer up to the job of software pianos and certainly won't buy one.

Lets face it, advanced but much too heavy and expensive stage pianos like the CP1, V-Piano, MP10, RD700nx are obsolete. I predict the CP4 is the successor to the CP1. And its 50% less in price than the CP1. It is staking ground in the $2K space. Cripes, they're still asking $2800 for a MP10 around here. Forget it, Kawai...
Posted By: kilf Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/07/13 03:21 AM
My es7 still looks, sound and feels amazing and I got it with the stand and pedal unit for £1136 or $1822 it will definitely satisfy me for a long time to come.

Yamaha is well overpriced here in the UK wooden keys or not
I was at GC again, mostly because they are having a Columbus Day special 15% off most everything. The sales guy said he would apply the discount to the CP4 and sell for $1,869.15 - in stock and ready to go.

(PLEASE Kawai, hurry with releasing new MP series! This kind of temptation is killing me.)
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
The sales guy said he would apply the discount to the CP4 and sell for $1,869.15 - in stock and ready to go.


That's a great price - can you get me one too? wink

James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
The sales guy said he would apply the discount to the CP4 and sell for $1,869.15 - in stock and ready to go.


That's a price - can you get me one too? wink

James
x


I'll gladly get you one if you get me a MP7. Deal? wink
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
I was at GC again, mostly because they are having a Columbus Day special 15% off most everything. The sales guy said he would apply the discount to the CP4 and sell for $1,869.15 - in stock and ready to go.

(PLEASE Kawai, hurry with releasing new MP series! This kind of temptation is killing me.)


++1 ...same here. I'm still waiting , but the clock is ticking and patience is running out...; many interesting deals have come and gone in the meantime and some large sales are coming up soon due to 'anniversaries' at some dealers and shops. New CP4 and what else will be on the table will go for much less than normal. Meanwhile there's no single tangible clue (teaser / pics of parts / release indication ?) of 'what' and 'when' regarding new Kawai gear. With the VPC1 Kawai started running the teaser website a while before fully introducing the board. Doing so for new MP's would hold off some people (like me) giving into the attempt of buying another brand , before we can compare it to the Kawai offerings.
Right on JFP! Even a teaser campaign like the VPC1 would be great at this point.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 11:41 AM
The MP10 is much better than the CP4 in terms of replicating the acoustic piano experience; it also does a god job as a controller; however, the CP4 is much lighter, so it's probably more practical for gigging. Just imagine how much better the MP11 will be. Honestly, I'd wait for ever for the new MP line (teaser or no teaser). For God's sake, I've been waiting for quite a while for a Kawai hybrid (real action), and as far as I know, they haven't even started developing the thing. I'm patient, Kawai; I'll wait for every NAMM like a child waits by the Christmas tree. Sooner or later my toy will be standing by the tree.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
I'm still waiting , but the clock is ticking and patience is running out...; many interesting deals have come and gone in the meantime and some large sales are coming up soon due to 'anniversaries' at some dealers and shops. New CP4 and what else will be on the table will go for much less than normal.


If you need to buy a stage piano today, there are plenty of great options available from Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg, Casio, Nord, etc. - take your pick. If the currently available boards are not suitable or unappealing (for whatever reason), by all means, hold onto your money and wait to see what the future holds.

However, I don't understand this notion that manufacturers should rush-out new products simply because a handful of folks online are growing impatient. New instruments are in development, of course, however they will become available when they're finished. Just because Yamaha have recently launched the new CP4 and CP40, it does not necessarily mean that Roland, Kawai, and other stage piano manufactures must suddenly bring their production and sales schedules forward.

Also, JFP, I was under the impression that your next DP would be a more traditional console-type form factor, after the VPC1+stand+computer+speakers setup proved unsuitable for the living room. If this is indeed the case, may I ask why you're waiting so expectantly for an MP announcement?

Originally Posted by JFP
Meanwhile there's no single tangible clue (teaser / pics of parts / release indication ?) of 'what' and 'when' regarding new Kawai gear.


Which perhaps suggests that the new Kawai gear you're interested in is some way off.

Originally Posted by JFP
With the VPC1 Kawai started running the teaser website a while before fully introducing the board.


According to my records, I uploaded the first VPC1 teaser on the 9th January - two weeks before the product was announced at NAMM. I know you're an impatient chap, but a fortnight can hardly be considered 'a while'.

Originally Posted by JFP
Doing so for new MP's would hold off some people (like me) giving into the attempt of buying another brand , before we can compare it to the Kawai offerings.


Again, if you need to buy a stage piano today, there are plenty of great options available from all of the main manufacturers. If you're not in such a great hurry, it may be worthwhile waiting to see what new models are announced in the future.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 03:45 PM
PIcking up from what KJ just said, on another forum, someone was just complaining about a product being announced long before they were ready to ship, saying that it seemed like just a scheme to try to stop people from buying competitive products for who knows how long while they waited to finish theirs!

The only companies that can even think about getting away with that are companies for whom the product in question is in a new category for them, i.e. it doesn't compete with their existing models. If Yamaha had announced the CP4/40 six months before they could ship it, one thing that would have done would have been to put a "damper" on six months worth of potential CP1/5/50 sales. What would an announcement of a hypothetical 6+ month out VPC2 do to current VPC1 sales? It makes no sense to tease about such a thing. That's ostensibly how Osborne computer went out of business... they announced a new computer model, everyone stopped buying the old one, and Osborne then didn't last long enough to ever come out with the new model.

Like KJ said, if you need something now, pick the best for you of what's available now. If you can wait, there will always be something better coming... and when that ships, there will always still be something still newer on the horizon from someone else. But you can comfort yourself by knowing that, whatever new thing comes out that everyone was waiting for, once it actually ships, there will be people posting here to complain about everything that's wrong with it. ;-)
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 05:08 PM
My back is still sore from the weekend - CP4 can't get here fast enough.
Posted By: maurus Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 05:19 PM
There is an even better strategy for some: Buy a discounted instrument that was/is top of the range in the class you are interested in but is just being phased out when you buy. I.e. buy a CP5 now which in so many ways is a fine if not excellent instrument, and is proven to be so for quite a while.

That will save you a lot of money and will definitely rule out buyer's remorse on the grounds that something new is announced a minute after you buy, for the simple reason it was announced just before you buy.... wink
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 05:50 PM
Hi James,

You're absolutely right on the 180 degree turns I may show !

Console style piano was indeed in the picture , but along the way I decided I am not a cabinet style DP enthousiast after all, however much my partner would like to see a classy upright in our house instead of a stage with external gear. I always had either 88 key workstations and/or stage pianos with or without second tier (or third) and that suits me well, especially since chances are big I'll take it out on the road again.

After trying so many boards, the keybed of the high-end KAWAI's remain my top favorite. That's why I am so curious what the new stages will bring in updated features and perhaps some small weight reductions. We're just little, unsatisfyable boys who keep impatiently asking how many nights of sleep our birthday is still away. Every hour ...twice ;-)

As for the rushing to market of new products; why not if a new hot-selling competing product lures away potential customers that would otherwise be interested in buying a new board from your company ? Every CP, RD-NX, or Nord buyer is one person who doesn't buy a Kawai product at that moment, but might have if a new and competing product was around. I would certainly step on the pedal and try to speed up development and production in that case. In the meantime lowering the price of the current line a bit to take some sales back from the competition and clear out stock before the new products appear.

It's a dynamic marked: if someone comes out with a threatening product you should counter that as soon as possible with an equally good, or better product in the same price range and/ or make current products more competitive by lowering the price to a level in that it doesn't have to directly compete with that new product and poses a cheaper but good alternative. Or don't sell and keep on sitting on a pile of stock. Whatever is preferred ...
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
if someone comes out with a threatening product you should counter that as soon as possible with an equally good, or better product in the same price range

New models don't appear by magic. Most companies are probably always working on development, I don't think they typically work leisurely or do nothing until they see what someone else does. And if they actually do have to scrap some of their work and change their plans based on competition, it probably means that new product will come out even later rather than sooner.

Originally Posted by JFP
and/ or make current products more competitive by lowering the price to a level in that it doesn't have to directly compete with that new product and poses a cheaper but good alternative.

Cutting the price is something that can be done much more quickly! But also can only do so much good, because at some point, it becomes self-defeating to cut price to the point of being insufficiently profitable.

The other option you didn't mention is to emphasize whatever advantages your model still has, because no competitor is going to beat it in every way from A to Z.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 08:36 PM
Ok, my last post on this subject - its is a CP4 threat after all ; so to prove my point -

The CP4 is just out and features :

- excellent keybed with triple sensor
- great AP sound, based on three very different sample sets for varying styles
- great EP sound
- easy user interface
- some master keyboard functions
- audio in
- internal power supply
- enough I/O and pedal inputs
- useful and large pallet of additional sounds
- 17.5 kg
- relatively small footprint / overall size
- price € 1999

MP10 has been on the market for a while:

- excellent keybed without triple sensor
- great AP sound , but based on same , or pretty similar sample set. Nothing wrong with that , but presets have the same basic character, so less obvious variation for styles.
- great EP sound
- easy user interface
- some master keyboard functions
- audio in
- internal power supply
- enough I/O and pedal inputs
- quite small and limited additional pallet of sounds
- 31.8 kg !!
- large footprint / overall size
- price € 2000 ~ € 2200

To be honest I don't see many reasons why one would pick the MP10 over the CP4 as a stage piano. The MP10 is an excellent and classy board, but it is so much more bulky and heavier than the Yammie AND misses the third sensor that's becoming sort of standard these days for keybeds AND is relatively 'old' compared to the freshly introduced Yamaha. So considering the price , it's already a tough choice for people who just put it fixed in the studio, but a no-brainer for giggers who will greatly value the weight difference. Unless the MP10 was so much cheaper, it would be interesting to put up with the extra weight and live with it (or hire roadies for the price difference ;-) Same goes for RD700NX etc. They've been around and something new enters offering roughly the same but with less weight and for less money. How many are you still going to sell without lowering the price point. Look at what Yammie is doing to the CP5 prices - really way below CP4 to keep sales going.

Ok back on topic : CP4 talk


Posted By: gvfarns Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 09:20 PM
Point taken, but remember that the CP4 keybed and MP10 keybed are not the same. Even if you may rate both as excellent, some people may find one far superior to the other and be willing to pay for the difference.

If we are taking votes, though, put me down for wanting the MP10 to be cheaper or replaced with a newer and better model.
Posted By: StarvingLion Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/10/13 10:52 PM
"To be honest I don't see many reasons why one would pick the MP10 over the CP4 as a stage piano."

MP10 has real wooden keys, the CP4 does not.
MP10 will be declared "obsolete" because its too heavy and will be cleared out of stores with demo units being much much cheaper than the "modern" CP4. You'll be able to get a real piano like the MP10 cheaper than the overhyped ES7 in North America. It will be much cheaper than a VPC1.

The CP4 could be an unreliable brittle piece of crap because of that bringing down the weight. Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.until its been around for 4 years.

The beauty of this CP4 hype (and the VPC1) is that it will destroy sales of the MP10. Nobody will buy it...except me when its 50% below the existing ludicrous price. Imagine, $1500 for a MP10 demo unit. You'll never get wooden keys for that price EVER.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Point taken, but remember that the CP4 keybed and MP10 keybed are not the same. Even if you may rate both as excellent, some people may find one far superior to the other and be willing to pay for the difference.

Exactly. And that's what I meant about emphasizing the advantages, the differentiating features, you still have. The majority of people looking for a gigging piano weren't considering the MP10 anyway, because of its 70+ lb weight. (Plus case!) For people looking for a largely stationary piano that may only have to be moved on occasion, there will be people who simply prefer the very different feel of the MP10 keyboard. Or they may prefer its sound. It doesn't always need to come down to a feature list.
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Point taken, but remember that the CP4 keybed and MP10 keybed are not the same. Even if you may rate both as excellent, some people may find one far superior to the other and be willing to pay for the difference.


Yes, the MP10 features a very good wooden keyed, but in comparison to their own newer boards and the competition it misses the third sensor. 3 sensors is not just a gimmick or pure marketing slogan; it really makes a difference in touch and response. Combined with the newer sounds (CFX / SCM EP's) AND low weight AND price, that's all in the equation for potential buyers. For pure studio use as a master controller I'd figure people may pick the VPC1 over the MP10 , since it leaves more 'deskspace' and they use outboard gear and software instruments anyway. As a stage the MP10 currently has a few disadvantages as mentioned and a more tempting price may therefore become a more important factor to lure people into buying this stage piano. Until Kawai catches up with a new release. It's not what Kawai should absolutely do, but it's what I at least would consider being in their position.
Posted By: Manolios Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 07:29 AM
+1
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
3 sensors is not just a gimmick or pure marketing slogan; it really makes a difference in touch and response.

I'm sure it does to some players, probably depending on both a player's technique and repertoire, but I would not say universally that it is that important. In my own playing, where I've played numerous boards with and without, I can't say I ever notice unless I'm specifically "testing" for it. I've certainly played some 2-sensor boards that play better overall than some 3-sensor boards, so I would not use it as purchase criteria myself. And really, until pretty recently, pros were touring only with two sensor boards (i.e. that's all there were), and they were not screaming about not being able to retrigger notes without releasing them further. I think this is an example of the industry first figuring out that they *could* do something, and then using marketing to convince everyone that they really need it, when it really otherwise wouldn't matter to lots of people. (Also, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that spinet/console acoustics behave more like 2-sensor DPs than 3-sensor, i.e. you can't retrigger from low in their travel, maybe someone can confirm?)
Posted By: JFP Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
(Also, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that spinet/console acoustics behave more like 2-sensor DPs than 3-sensor, i.e. you can't retrigger from low in their travel, maybe someone can confirm?)


Well, the acoustic uprights we have in the family are much harder to retrigger (need more release and are slower in response) than the 3 sensor Kawai's I had. That's for sure. Overall the acoustics were harder to play and the DP's easier on the fingers and faster. Not that you couldn't adjust after running in on the acoustic for a little while. But many uprights indeed behave more like a 2 sensor board than a high end 3 sensor DP keybed. On the other hand a good acoustic grand behaves quite similar to a good DP keybed with 3 sensors. So it depends on which acoustic model you compare it too.

From my own experience I found 3 sensor boards much easier to play than 2 sensor, although mileage may vary; Kawai and Roland PHA-III respond very fine, the Casio keybed was quite different in repetition and the cheaper Ivory-G was also in another league. FATAR TP40W 3 sensor was somewhere in between. I don't know if I missed it at times only 2 sensor boards were available, although I sometimes hated keybeds when trying to play some classical work for sure ! But when you've played several good 3 sensor board, going back to 2 sensor is a noticeable step back. It's like so many things that are introduced; you didn't know you missed it, until you have it and then doing without becomes another story...
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 01:59 PM
I think the importance of a third sensor is dependent on how well the sensors are positioned and implemented.

To get the best estimate of final velocity of an object by timing two events of that object, you obviously want to place the two events at or near the end of any energy input into the object, and make the physical distance of the interval small.

Key down velocity detection is a function of the time interval from middle sensor closure to bottom sensor closure. Damping is opening the top sensor. In order to make playing repeated notes easier, the middle sensor should be positioned relatively close to the bottom sensor and relatively far away from the top sensor.

Key up velocity detection (for variable damping speed) is a function of the time interval from middle sensor opening to top sensor opening, which is perhaps not ideal with the middle sensor physically closer to the bottom sensor than the top sensor, but it is less important than key down velocity so maybe who cares.

The most realistic action would use a high speed continuous position sensor, something entirely doable. If implemented with hall effect devices and magnets, or LEDs, or capacitive means, it could be much more reliable and precise than cheap rubber switches on a cheap PWB. You could calibrate each key, and key position after playing the note might be able to be used for note bending, effects, etc.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by JFP
Originally Posted by anotherscott
(Also, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that spinet/console acoustics behave more like 2-sensor DPs than 3-sensor, i.e. you can't retrigger from low in their travel, maybe someone can confirm?)


Well, the acoustic uprights we have in the family are much harder to retrigger (need more release and are slower in response) than the 3 sensor Kawai's I had. That's for sure. Overall the acoustics were harder to play and the DP's easier on the fingers and faster. Not that you couldn't adjust after running in on the acoustic for a little while. But many uprights indeed behave more like a 2 sensor board than a high end 3 sensor DP keybed.

And that kind of gets back to my point... even before DPs, the majority of people who ever played piano probably played on boards that behaved more like 2-sensor boards. And they were still able to thoroughly enjoy the experience and perhaps become very accomplished players. So the "necessity" of three sensors I think is over-rated. And as I mentioned, I don't think it really tells you anything about which action is better overall. I think most people would probably agree that the 2-sensor Yamaha CP1 felt much better to play than the 3-sensor Casio PX-130. So to bring it back to what started this, I would not assume that everyone will prefer the feel of the 3-sensor Yamaha board over the 2-sensor Kawai MP10. The key to the purchase, for those not simply buying from spec sheets, is which feels better under your fingers, not which has more sensors.

Originally Posted by JFP
It's like so many things that are introduced; you didn't know you missed it, until you have it and then doing without becomes another story...

Yes, that's a good point as well.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
I think the importance of a third sensor is dependent on how well the sensors are positioned and implemented.

Another good point, that simply having three sensors doesn't give you the whole story, that the exact placement of the sensors may affect how a board plays as well, even for those who are specifically concerned with the playability that can come from this feature.

Originally Posted by dewster
The most realistic action would use a high speed continuous position sensor, something entirely doable. If implemented with hall effect devices and magnets

Yes, like they now discontinued VAX77, I believe. It didn't have a true hammer feel, but a lot of people really liked it for piano, and perhaps its more accurate way of sensing velocity was part of that.
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 06:33 PM
I had a VAX77 for about a year - a work of art for sure - but not what I wanted in a piano controller. The velocity response was very even and felt like it was very responsive. But it always felt like I was playing a bunch of springs. Not for me.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 09:06 PM
Can someone summarize this thread?

There are more than 450 posts with more than 40,000 views.

I really don't feel like reading all this. smile
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Can someone summarize this thread?

There are more than 450 posts with more than 40,000 views.

I really don't feel like reading all this. smile


Sure...

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/stagepianos/cpstage/cp4_stage/

That's it wink
Posted By: doremi Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/11/13 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by dewster
I think the importance of a third sensor is dependent on how well the sensors are positioned and implemented.

Another good point, that simply having three sensors doesn't give you the whole story, that the exact placement of the sensors may affect how a board plays as well, even for those who are specifically concerned with the playability that can come from this feature.

Originally Posted by dewster
The most realistic action would use a high speed continuous position sensor, something entirely doable. If implemented with hall effect devices and magnets

Yes, like they now discontinued VAX77, I believe. It didn't have a true hammer feel, but a lot of people really liked it for piano, and perhaps its more accurate way of sensing velocity was part of that.

I would even go so far as to say that the Avantgrands with the real-grand-piano-action may or may not feel better than the CAs with the non-real-grand-piano-action.

It is unfortunately near impossible to play them side by side.
Posted By: xorbe Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/12/13 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Can someone summarize this thread?

More user friendly, less weight, more plastic, less price, more cow bell. New CFX piano sample. Graded GH3 action.
Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/12/13 01:56 AM
Nice shooting, xorbe!
Posted By: StarvingLion Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/12/13 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Can someone summarize this thread?

There are more than 450 posts with more than 40,000 views.

I really don't feel like reading all this. smile


Great Digital Hardware Piano Pricing Crash ...and...

random gibberish
Posted By: bfb Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/16/13 09:12 PM
can't help myself posting this.

at the bottom of the product page there are audio demos:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/stagepianos/cpstage/cp4_stage/

I know the "shiny new stuff" on this slab is the CFX sampled piano and the fact that it is a very portable 38 lbs.

But when i really listen to the CFX demo- when it gets past the initial higher range notes and settles into the middle range- it sounds incredibly synthetic to me- almost comically so. like a 1980's digital piano. is that Dewster's famous rants about short decays and looped samples finally burning into my brain?

or is that just my personal taste- and granted i tend to like the S6 sound better than the C-series sound. or do others here something less than wonderful there.

i'm not going to judge it just on the demo. i'm waiting to get a chance to play it and hear it live. But i admit i really was taken back by this demo. i hope i'm wrong because i'd like to think this is a DP i'd buy some day.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/16/13 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by bfb


at the bottom of the product page there are audio demos:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/stagepianos/cpstage/cp4_stage/

I know the "shiny new stuff" on this slab is the CFX sampled piano and the fact that it is a very portable 38 lbs.

But when i really listen to the CFX demo- when it gets past the initial higher range notes and settles into the middle range- it sounds incredibly synthetic to me- almost comically so. like a 1980's digital piano. is that Dewster's famous rants about short decays and looped samples finally burning into my brain?

or is that just my personal taste- and granted i tend to like the S6 sound better than the C-series sound. or do others here something less than wonderful there.


Listen to the real CFX sound and judge for yourself:

http://youtu.be/lJD7QQ97hBQ
Posted By: Pete the bean Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/17/13 06:20 AM
There is definitely something of a "plastic" characteristic in the Cp series acoustic piano samples. I get it on my Cp1. I think it gives a unique sound to the instrument, not necessarily in a comical way. At least it doesn't grate my nerves like other digital pianos I have owned and learned to despise.
Posted By: Tony Chop Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/17/13 12:06 PM
You are right about the CFX sound . To me its a brittle sound . I played one at GC in Seattle The CFIII is a little better. The S6 is the best, especially the upper mids with a fairly warm woody sound. I was ready to buy for the S6 sound, only if I liked the Rds because that's what I play the most, But the S90 and Motif Rds I like better because they are more lush, they are quite differant. Would be nice if they could combine them both. I decided to wait for the next S70xs update, maybe they will move the mod & pitch wheels up and over to make it a little shorter. Aftertouch is always a plus for me. The CP4 action is smooth and does not feel heavy at all like some people said. Its the same as the the C5 but graded. I wish they would put the C5 action on the next S70 , That would be bliss, S90, Numa organ, Roland JD990, K12s
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/17/13 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Tony Chop
You are right about the CFX sound . To me its a brittle sound . I played one at GC in Seattle The CFIII is a little better. The S6 is the best, especially the upper mids with a fairly warm woody sound. I was ready to buy for the S6 sound, only if I liked the Rds because that's what I play the most, But the S90 and Motif Rds I like better because they are more lush, they are quite differant. Would be nice if they could combine them both. I decided to wait for the next S70xs update, maybe they will move the mod & pitch wheels up and over to make it a little shorter. Aftertouch is always a plus for me. The CP4 action is smooth and does not feel heavy at all like some people said. Its the same as the the C5 but graded. I wish they would put the C5 action on the next S70 , That would be bliss, S90, Numa organ, Roland JD990, K12s
If you read through this thread, you'll see that I had same order for my favorite samples. To me, this is important, cause I have an Avantgrand and it has CFIII sample, which I love, but there's so much chatter how the CFX sample must be better cause of the way the CFX concert grand has been reviewed. IMO, it's how the samples are created that really matters. Look at Korg, they can't sample acoustic pianos to save their lives.
Just saw this over thread over at Music Player ;

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2536414/Yamaha_CP4_first_impressions

(I apologize if it's not proper to post from a non-pianoworld forum thread over here. Not sure if there is a protocol for that)
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/21/13 09:27 PM
My CP4 shipped today!! Should be here next Monday....
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/21/13 10:33 PM
Let me restate this.

Has this been mentioned? I have the feeling that the CP4 is the follow up to the CP33 rather than having any lineage to the CP1 or CP5.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/21/13 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Let me restate this.

Has this been mentioned? I have the feeling that the CP4 is the follow up to the CP33 rather than having any lineage to the CP1 or CP5.
Sure, I see it. The interface gives it away. Of course, Yamaha might of given up on trying to improve interface on CP1/5/50 and won't be replacing them and upscaled the CP4 with better action and samples.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/22/13 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Has this been mentioned? I have the feeling that the CP4 is the follow up to the CP33 rather than having any lineage to the CP1 or CP5.

It seems the CP5 is already discontinued, the CP33 is not, plus the CP33 is at a lower price point, so the CP4 does seem to be the CP5 replacement. Functionally, the CP4 is kind of a CP5 with more of a CP33-style interface. Unlike the CP33, it has CP5 features like a large set of Motif sounds, wooden keys, newer piano samples, SCM EPs. So the CP5 lineage is definitely there, too.
Posted By: Keyguy Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/22/13 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Let me restate this.

Has this been mentioned? I have the feeling that the CP4 is the follow up to the CP33 rather than having any lineage to the CP1 or CP5.


Mine will be here Friday or Monday, to replace my CP33. I will report back!
Posted By: Aidan Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/23/13 02:47 PM
Another nice CP4 demo, with some well known tunes!

Posted By: dje31 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/23/13 03:34 PM
Okay, I'm having a case of mental flatulence...what's the first tunelet ( 0:00-0:23 ) ?

EDIT: Firth of Fifth, Genesis ( Thanks, Aidan! )
Posted By: RonL Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 10/23/13 07:27 PM
hanks for posting this - great fun playing name that tune - I could never get Firth of Fifth under the fingers - but I remember playing that Wakeman excerpt way back. The most fun one in the clip was the Chick Corea Electric Band one from the first album, is it Rumble or Golden Temple? something like that. Anyway thanks for the posting and the smile.
Posted By: Coker Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/29/13 12:41 AM
Well, folks, I pulled the trigger on a CP4 today from Guitar Center's on-line partner Sweetwater. 15% off for the Thanksgiving weekend and backordered until 12/12/13. I based the purchase on on-line reviews and your discussion thread, as I did my FP-4 years ago. My preferred buy would have been an ES-7, but it was just too heavy for my 61 year-old body, and with the rolling case would have weighed about 70 pounds. With the CP4 I can get away with a carry-only bag, and total weight will be about 48 pounds. Thanks for all your thoughtful comments!
Posted By: David Farley Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/29/13 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Coker
Well, folks, I pulled the trigger on a CP4 today from Guitar Center's on-line partner Sweetwater. 15% off for the Thanksgiving weekend and backordered until 12/12/13. I based the purchase on on-line reviews and your discussion thread, as I did my FP-4 years ago. My preferred buy would have been an ES-7, but it was just too heavy for my 61 year-old body, and with the rolling case would have weighed about 70 pounds. With the CP4 I can get away with a carry-only bag, and total weight will be about 48 pounds. Thanks for all your thoughtful comments!


How exactly did that work? I see Guitar Center offering a 15% discount coupon, and Sweetwater offering 24-month financing, but I don't see the connection between the two. I would be awfully tempted to get another board if I could combine both of those deals...
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/29/13 06:17 PM
Guitar Center is not affiliated with Sweetwater. They are affiliated with Musician's Friend, though.
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/29/13 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Guitar Center is not affiliated with Sweetwater. They are affiliated with Musician's Friend, though.

But Guitar Center owns MF, doesn't it?
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/29/13 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Guitar Center is not affiliated with Sweetwater. They are affiliated with Musician's Friend, though.

But Guitar Center owns MF, doesn't it?

That's kind of what I said. I said "affiliated with" rather than "owned by" because I'm not sure what the relationship is, who owns whom, or whether it's that both are owned by the same parent company, etc,
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/30/13 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Guitar Center is not affiliated with Sweetwater. They are affiliated with Musician's Friend, though.

But Guitar Center owns MF, doesn't it?

That's kind of what I said. I said "affiliated with" rather than "owned by" because I'm not sure what the relationship is, who owns whom, or whether it's that both are owned by the same parent company, etc,

Sorry, I interpreted the "They" as referring to Sweetwater.
Posted By: Coker Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 11/30/13 02:11 AM
Sorry - I meant Musician's Friend, not Sweetwater. I've been looking at so many websites I got confused.
Anyone know why Yamaha increased the price $100 of the CP4 form $2,199 to $2,299? I snapped and posted this photo from GC on October 5, 2013 and it was not on sale or any promotion. Just wondering as I was trying to put together a few recommendations for a coworker that asked me for some help to replace his old DP. Thats when I noticed the increase at Sweetwater , GC , B&H, ZZ , etc. they all have it at $2,299.

Funny, I have never seen a new DP go UP in price! I thought if anything that Yamaha would DROP the price down to $1,999 so it can compete with Kawai MP7 and maybe steer some away from the pricey NP2 or others like the RD800 and Artis.

Oh well, I'll never figure the whole DP industry's pricing and marketing.



[Linked Image] [/quote]
Posted By: David Farley Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 03:54 PM
If the list price is now $3,149, they actually upped the price by $150, not $100. Although it just seems to mean that all the vendors only upped their price by $100 and are claiming even bigger savings now.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 04:09 PM
The fly on the wall at Yamaha Corp. "If Nord can overcharge, so can we."
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 04:29 PM
Mine just came yesterday. Haven't been able to spent a lot of time with it but my K&M 18880 stand makes it sit too high. The CP4 has a little lip under it, similar to the CP300.

I guess I'll have to break out my Quik-Lok WS-550 out of the attic and see if that's a better height. A drag 'cause the 18880 was super light weight and a perfect height for the NP2.

Wondering if any other of the K&M stands go lower. Maybe the Omega, but that's sounds like a pia to set up & teardown for gigs.

Regarding pricing- you guys need to know where to shop.. wink
Originally Posted by 36251
The fly on the wall at Yamaha Corp. "If Nord can overcharge, so can we."


Well, Yamaha might be capitalizing on RD800 being off the market. One less DP option in $2000+ range, Now you just have:

Artis $2,195 - great sound but crappy action
NP2 $2,999 - excellent but way expensive and ok action
MP11 $2,799 - arguably the best DP on market, but 71 lbs.
RD800 $2,499 - great action and piano sound, but a little heavy and long for some.

So now the CP4, with similar offerings closest to the RD800, and lightest weight in class, seems to be the winner at $2,299 ...and Yamaha knows it. Now sucking an extra hundo out of us.

BUT... then enters the stealth bomber of all the $2,000+ DPs and that would be the MP7. It's starting to make us all wonder why anyone needs to spend over $2,000 for any DP.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 05:40 PM
It would be interesting to hear how many of these DP's are sold each year. It's probably a niche market thus the high cost and slow curve for real innovation. I'm not implying that DP's haven't improved but you got to think that if these were mainstream then co.s would give us VST quality.
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Wondering if any other of the K&M stands go lower. Maybe the Omega, but that's sounds like a pia to set up & teardown for gigs.


OT: I use the Omega with ES7 and RD800. Very nice, solid, light, and not that much of a PITA to setup/breakdown as it looks. Very easy for wire management. It does have 28 slots for height adjustment BUT same lowest height as 18880 at 24.8"
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 06:36 PM
Thanks Marko. Yes the Quik-Lok works better for height. It's goes maybe a half inch lower...which is a big deal for me. After using the K&M the last few years, the WS-550 looks butt ugly compared to the sleekness of the 18880. That's not good to hear about the Omega. I wonder if any of those K&M table stands go lower..

Just spent my first half hour comparing the NP2 and CP4. Listening with my RCF TT08As on speaker stands going through my APB Dyna Sonics ProSpec 2U6M2S mixer.

Initial thoughts - Wow NO comparison ! The CP4 is so much richer and easier to be expressive on , especially for jazz. The Yamaha inspires you (or me) to play, where the Nord makes me wanna go and take a nap. grin

Even my wife said, yes the CP4 sounds richer, fuller and more like a piano. She did say she could see how the Nord would sound good out front in the audience. I said ..yeah, that's were they get ya. laugh

She added...you've been unhappy with that Nord for 3 years now. Get what inspires you to play your best in spite of what it sounds like out front.

I said right, it should be more about me - Al Franken. grin

More thoughts to come when I get some more time to spend on the CP4.
Posted By: 36251 Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
Thanks Marko. Yes the Quik-Lok works better for height. It's goes maybe a half inch lower...which is a big deal for me. After using the K&M the last few years, the WS-550 looks butt ugly compared to the sleekness of the 18880. That's not good to hear about the Omega. I wonder if any of those K&M table stands go lower..

Just spent my first half hour comparing the NP2 and CP4. Listening with my RCF TT08As on speaker stands going through my APB Dynasonics ProSpec 6U2M2S mixer.

Initial thoughts - Wow NO comparison ! The CP4 is so much richer and easier to be expressive on , especially for jazz. The Yamaha inspires you (or me) to play, where the Nord makes me wanna go and take a nap. grin

Even my wife said, yes the CP4 sounds richer, fuller and more like a piano. She did say she could see how the Nord would sound good out front in the audience. I said ..yeah, that's were they get ya. laugh

She added...you've been unhappy with that Nord for 3 years now. Get what inspires you to play your best in spite of what it sounds like out front.

I said right, it should be more about me - Al Franken. grin

More thoughts to come when I get some more time to spend on the CP4.
I hear thee!
Good for you guys!!! Congrats and Im happy to hear some genuine good news about the CP4 from folks we can trust. I love the action and sound of the CP4, but I absolutely love the Sweetwater demo.

Ok, i know you have seen it over a million times... but until you guys make a new one, I will continuously post it!!! wink



Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/15/14 11:29 PM
Congrats Dave!
Posted By: voxpops Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/16/14 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Congrats Dave!

+1 thumb
Posted By: Dave Ferris Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/16/14 04:07 PM
Hey thanks guys. Played it more last night and I'm really liking it.
I was at GC in Boston after work yesterday with my coworker looking to purchase. We both jumped on the CP4 and sure is nice. Ive played it many times now and this was his first. Made a big first impression on him and he is primarily an acoustic for about 30 years.

Note: Not sure if you've noticed yet, but the one thing I really like about the CP4 is how the reverb sounds when adjusted to your liking. Something about it just seems so good and I can't quite explain it. All I know is I can't seem to replicate that same reverb-nuance-distinction on my ES7 or RD800. You know what mean? confused Maybe it's just me.
Posted By: dewster Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/16/14 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
Note: Not sure if you've noticed yet, but the one thing I really like about the CP4 is how the reverb sounds when adjusted to your liking. Something about it just seems so good and I can't quite explain it. All I know is I can't seem to replicate that same reverb-nuance-distinction on my ES7 or RD800. You know what mean? confused Maybe it's just me.

The reverb on the RD-700NX is pretty horrible, Roland really needs better algorithms. I can't stand it even on the church organ voices, and I'm a reverb slut.

We have a Yamaha AN1x that has beautiful reverb, particularly for an older board. You know it's good if you're always turning it up / applying it to every voice.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future? - 05/16/14 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by dewster
I'm a reverb slut.


I have absolutely no idea what this means.
Actually, I don't think I want to know...
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by dewster
I'm a reverb slut.


I have absolutely no idea what this means.
Actually, I don't think I want to know...


It means that Dewster is the Ron Jeremy of reverb.
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