Hi 1st post here, I'm a beginner looking to take up the piano and would like to learn on a DP. Mostly interested in the models mentioned and this would be a long term investment also to be used by young relatives to learn on and have fun with.

Main requirements:
Key action that is closer to an AP
Great piano sound
Good selection of voices (particularly organs and strings)
Portable and not too heavy
On board speakers would be preferable

I'd be particularly interested to know if the RD700NX is worth paying extra for someone with my requirements.

Nothing there gives you everything you want, so I'll toss out a different way to go. For about the price of the 700NX you could get a Nord Electro 4D (or a 3, if you can still find one) and a Casio PX-350. The Casio gives you a nice action and on-board speakers. The Nord gives you superior piano and organ sounds. Run a MIDI cable from the Casio to the Nord, and audio cables from the Nord to the Casio, and you can play the Nord's piano sounds from the Casio keybed and hear it through the Casio speakers. The two keyboards combined weigh less than any of the single keyboards you mentioned, so the lightweight/portable aspect is addressed. And you'd have a wide range of other voices to choose from as well. For the requirements you listed, this combination will be better than any of those single boards, plus it gives you a bonus unweighted action better for playing organ from.

If you want to save some money, you could get the Roland VR-09 instead of the Nord Electro. You will be compromising a bit on the quality of the piano and organ sounds, but it will save you about $1000.

If by "Portable and not too heavy" you mean that you want to be able to move it between rooms in your house from time to time (and not take it to gigs), all of those models are fine.

The FP-80 has a decent Hammond organ simulator, and ok string sounds. I'm sure the ES7 would be fine too, altough I've never played one. I don't think you need the RD-700NX, that's more of an all-round gigging board. Same goes for the MP6, I suppose.

Some people, including me, don't like Roland's Supernatural acoustic piano sound. So going to the shop and trying it first is a good idea.

Requirement of onboard speakers leaves ES7 and Fp-80 in the race if you want some speakers that make enough noise and are of reasonable quality (for build-in speakers). Keybed's are quite alike. They both have some good EP's and Organs too, but the Roland has more sounds and options to tweak them (tone wheel simulation). The AP sound is a matter of taste. Some like Roland SN Piano, others like the Kawai Grand sound. Also there is a price difference (if you're not in the States) ; the ES7 is cheaper and by the way a tad lighter.

All-in-all I think you have to try both the ES and FP , but of you need a bigger palette of onboard sounds the Roland has more to offer , but at a higher price. The RD700NX has more AP SN sounds to choose from and is a real stage controller piano , whilst the others are NOT. Different design, different purpose. From your list, the FP80 might be a better fit, since you don't particularly list extensive master keyboard controls as a requirement.

I'm in the UK so I'll give the sort of prices I can get:
ES7 - £1130
MP6 - £1300
FP80 - £1500
RD700NX - £2000 or £1900 for an ex display model.

Yes built in speakers would be preferable but not essential. Torhu that's exactly what I meant, occasionally it might need to be moved including up the stairs so around 25kg or less would be better.

Another Scott that's a very interesting idea however I'm not very technically minded so wouldn't have the confidence to attempt that, I would think having 2 would take up more space too so would much rather get as much as I'm after in 1 fairly compact DP.

JFP yes I'm am leaning towards the FP80. Is the key action and sound quality very similar to the NX700? More voices, effects, customizations etc would be really nice to have but I'd put more emphasis on key action and sound that is closer to an AP.

If you live in Manchester I know somebody selling a RD700NX for 1600

I'm in London unfortunately.

One thing worth mentioning: the FP-80 (and probably ES7) has got some backing band and recording features that are both fun and useful for practice. The RD-700NX is more limited in that area.

If you're just playing one sound at a time, it really is as simple as I explained. Connect a MIDI cable and left/right audio cables, and you're done. 30 seconds tops. You can do more, but you don't need to do more.

Alternatively, though, if you really want everything in one, you could buy an Electro 4HP, and have the same excellent Nord piano and organ. The reason I suggested the two board approach was that you get (IMO) a better feeling action, a full 88 keys, extra sounds, an additional unweighted keybed for organ, and also the built in speakers you'd like to have. But if you're okay without the speakers, and with the feel of the 4HP keys, the 4HP will give you the basics in one box.


That's true. The Casio+Electro are both pretty compact for what they are, and don't take a ton of space, but would still take more space than a single board, depth-wise. (If space is an issue, note also that the RD700NX requires more width than anything else we're talking about, because of the control panel to the left of the 88 keys.)

Yes space is at a premium at the moment. It's one the reasons I haven't considered the Kwai MP10 which seems great but appears bigger and heavier than the others and lacks organ sounds.

The organ sounds are just something I'd like to play around with and am not as serious about. Something like whats on the Kurzweil SP4-8 would be fine for my needs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xK-DxPszbA#t=4m43s

That could be another reason to see whether the Nord Electro 4HP may be sufficient for you, it's very small (and light).


They make a version of that with speakers, the SPS4-8. It may lag your other choices in other ways, but it may still be worth consideration.

The main emphasis would be on good key action for learning on and sound quality, I would be taking piano lessons on this and would want something that lasts.

My nephew will also be learning on this and his parents will be contributing so it's something we have to agree on. All the extra sounds/effects/features that we can get too would add to the fun for us but wouldn't be the main priority. The pipe or church organ sound is something we both really like but the piano sound and feel come first.

Hi Enthusiast.

Just out of interest where did you get that price of £1300 for the MP6? That's very high my friend.

I just ordered an MP6 on Friday and didn't pay anywhere near that. I was sitting on the fence a bit and waiting to save more funds for my MP. However, the deal I got on friday was so good I couldn't miss out on this opportunity.

The fact that I phoned the shop and haggled with them is what got me my price. I also live in London and am in a similar predicament as you.

Took piano lessons as a child and now starting back again in my mid 40's.

Tinkered on the Roland FP7 and found the action a little too light for my liking. Found the MP6 action to be a little heavy but loved it as, to me, this is how an AP should feel.

Just my 2 cents (or 2 pence!)

Best feel (roughly within your price range) is generally considered Kawai MP10/VPC, Yamaha CP5, Roland FP-80/RD-700NX/FP-7F. Which isn't to say that everyone likes all of those. I'd also put the new Casios up there.

But when it comes to the sound of the MP10, CP5, or Roland SuperNatural, there's no consensus there. Just pick what you like.

Though I understand that size/weight constraints might rule out the MP10.

Would you consider using a laptop for its sounds? Then you could just pick the action you like.

In terms of Kawai, the ES7 has the superior keyboard action (3 sensor), and built-in speakers, however features a smaller number of sounds compared to the MP6.

I've yet to try the FP-80, however the FP-7F was a good board (albeit a little over-simplified). It offers more sounds than the ES7 too.

MP10 is heavier than the ES7 and MP6, largely due to the wooden keys. But, in terms of size it's not *that* much larger. However, it lacks speakers, and has a sound-set that emphasises quality over quantity, so may miss-out in terms the 'fun' factory.

Of course, there's also the VPC1 - arguably the most realistic keyboard action of all of the boards, but it lacks any built-in sounds, and I'm not sure if you'd be willing to complicate matters be using computer-based sound exclusively.

Cheers,
James
x

Hi Dooq, I didn't really shop around much when putting those prices up. The MP6 price was from Rose Morris in Denmark street, however I've just now seen it at £1160 elsewhere. Not sure how that compares to what you got it for. I've only had keyboard lessons before for a year and that was when I was 12. I'm 33 next month and still have that old Yamaha keyboard to play on for now. I started violin last year so a piano would be my 2nd instrument.

anotherscott I don't have a laptop only a great big desktop PC which is upstairs whereas the DP would be downstairs in the living room. I am intrigued by the idea of using software to add to or improve sound but have no idea how it works. Is there a beginners guide somewhere? As for the MP10 I would probably put up with the weight issue (as it seems amazing) but ideally I'd like to have those organ sounds in which it seems to lack.

Kwai James I didn't realize there was any difference between the ES7 and MP6 in terms of key action, that with the speakers would put it above the MP6 for me. The ES7 does at least have the main sounds I'd want and is the cheapest. I also really like the way it looks on it's stand with 3 pedals. Hopefully it can be detached quickly and easily.

VPC1 is an interesting one I hadn't heard of before but saw an add for it just now.
http://www.thepianoman.ltd.uk/kawai-vpc1-digital-piano.php
Does it require a lot of know how to use it and is it possible to get all sorts of effects and instrument sounds in there?

Any chance you have an iPad? You can get some nice organ sounds on that, which you can trigger from whatever piano you get. Simple and cheap.

Yes, the MP6 uses the 'RH' action, the ES7 uses the 'RHII' action. In terms of mechanism they're more or less identical. However, the 'RHII' action is more modern and features triple-sensor key detection for improved responsiveness.



Yes, there are some thumbscrews underneath - it's pretty straight-forward.



It's essentially an MP10 with an improved action (again triple-sensor), but without any sound generating hardware. It's something of a niche board, but for folks that use piano software on their Mac/PC, there's nothing out there that can touch it.



Well, it requires a reasonably powerful computer, software, and a degree of knowledge. But once everything is up and running, it's reasonably easy to use and offers far greater flexibility than a hardware digital piano.

More info here: www.kawaivpc.com

Cheers,
James
x

My nephew who would be the other main user does. He uses it to play his favourite tracks from synthesia on our keyboard. How would it work in terms of getting extra sounds on a DP?

Kwai James thanks for that link. It might end up being too much inconvenience and work for someone not used to doing that sort of thing. I do have a powerful PC with an average soundcard but I guess it would need to be connected all the time which wouldn't be convenient.

I need to go into some more shops now and try them all out. I do wonder if the 700NX as mentioned in another thread is due a successor this year?

If you plan on recording it solo, then I'd recommend anything Roland with SN piano voices, particularly the "Studio Grand" in the RD-700NX. Almost everything else you might choose from is looped and probably also stretched to some degree. Roland PHAIII keys are pretty nice too.

The NX can layer 4 voices, so it can directly do the church organ voices described in this excellent FP-7F thread. But it will take some doing on your part, and the reverb isn't that great. The strings aren't anything to write home about, but the harpsichord is OK. Given the extra length, the weight, and the strange form factor it's not very portable. And it doesn't have a music rest or built-in speakers (I'd recommend you use a good pair of headphones with it, or any DP you get actually).

You might try a Yamaha P-105 and see if that's enough for you. It is stretched and looped and has lame sympathetic resonance, but it is quite portable and has a music rest and built-in speakers.

"I do wonder if the 700NX as mentioned in another thread is due a successor this year?"

There's always something new on the horizon; often when you're waiting and waiting and... to get the latest and greatest, you end up with nothing at all. At some point you have to decide what fits your needs at this moment and go for it and don't look back (or on the internet for half a year; always painfull when your new gear is on EOL sale a week after your purchase).

If the 700NX got your attention and your afraid of an RD8xx at some point , you might consider a second hand RD700NX in good condition for a nice price. In that way it will be less of a headache when something new pops up a month later, cause it will cost considerably more anyway.

IMHO the replacement rate of boards like the MP and RD series has slowed down , probably due to the economic crisis. Therefore it is very hard to predict when the next generation will be released (not so steady intervals as in the past). Perhaps they're even sitting on a big pile of stock that first has to be cleared out, which goes very slow I guess these days...Talking expensive high end gear => slow-movers...

Since you're looking for pipe organ sounds you can start with this free app:
"Jeux d'orgues Mini"
Since it sounds like you already have the iPad hooked up to your keyboard, you're pretty much there. Just launch the app and start playing.
There are lots of other apps. If you're looking for more of a Hammond drawbar organ, for example, Garageband does a nice job for $5.

USB cable, then identify the keyboard as the controller.

Then go into a song any song change the instruments, then pause the song, what you press now comes out via synthesia over to your DP speakers.

Thats it, I've found I can pretty much get any midi and get sythesia to play a demo of it and it comes out on the DP speakers.

I don't use synthesia much anymore tbh, except when I see some sheet music I am sure isn't right.

I think several people that have replied in this thread need to read the first post again, specifically this part:



This is not someone looking for professional gigging setup, or the best possible anything at all. And he probably doesn't want multiple boards or anything as complicated as software instruments (not from the outset, anyway). He just wants something that will work for him and cover his needs. His needs, not yours. Just a friendly reminder.

The problem is that his 5 listed requirements are not the easiest combination to find in a single self-contained board. Whether beginner or not, if those are the things you want, you either have to compromise or consider some out-of-the-box solutions. So we're just providing options.

Well firstly I noticed Bonners Music (www.bonnersmusic.co.uk) had the best online price. Up until then Thomann were the lowest at £1,170. However, since it's a Bank Holiday here in the uk I thought I'd check for any holiday discounts that might be floating around.

After a few unsuccessful searches on Google and Bonners Twitter feed I decided to call them direct & ask a salesperson for a discount (01323 639 335).

I literally said "what's your lowest price". I had to wait about 2 or 3 minutes (felt longer!) then the guy came back with £1,075. That did it for me and I bought it on the spot. I asked if the MP was brand new and unopened which he confirmed (I was a little paranoid as that price was so low!).

So I'll have by DP on Tuesday. Might be worth trying this yourself regardless of what DP you finally go with.

The keyboard I have is a Yamaha PSR300 which is over 20 years old but does have a midi input which I never knew how to use before. We haven't actually connected the ipad to it nor used Synthesia directly just used videos from YT of it. This keyboard is something I'd like to try experimenting on though. Need the right sort of wire first (usb to midi?).

Dewster that's some interesting info in that link, opening my eyes to what you can do if your DP has a lot of features like the NX and fp7f.
I really like this vid for instance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDA2ilgq1M

Dooq I may give that site a try when I've decided, the price you got for the MP6 seems really good. They may be particularly keen to give me a deal if I get accessories with the DP.

If I were to go for the NX what are good speakers for that for a living room? I'd need to take that cost into account before deciding. The headphones I have are Sennheiser HD 558.

Seriously though don't use synthesia too much. I used it for a while and learnt some songs by rote, once I started learning properly it opened up so much more.

You can use synthesia for a year and only be able to play what it presents you. Or you can learn properly and have a bloody good crack at any sheet music put in front of you.

Just get the FP-80 or the ES7. You'll be very happy with one of those. Both are very well build and will give you many years of enjoyment. If you want you can always still hook up a computer to it. But, from what I understand, all you want is something simple and good with built in speakers. Just press the on button and play.

So we're back at the beginning. The only reason NX keeps on coming up is because Enthusiast keeps on bringing the NX back in the mix again and again. First advice of most posters (like myself) was indeed go for the FP or ES. In other words Enthusiast may have to get back to the drawing board and decide what he 'really' wants from a board, stick to that and take a pick. ES/FP and NX different kind of breed , different purpose, different setup (external speakers etc); you'll have to make a choice at some point...

You could consider also one of the newest and maybe best action (with triple sensor) equipped keyboard: Numa Concert.

It has no speakers and 'only' 9 layered samples.

May I ask you why do you think the Numa Concert has the best action
Is it the Fatar TP40 which is used in there ?

TP40 Wood with triple sensor (and perhaps some other small improvements we don't know about). Seems to be a good keybed. Pitty no-one sells the Studiologic in our country, cause I would have liked to be able to test it somewhere.

@ Cmin; with all due respect , but to my knowledge the Kawai PHI 'only' has four layers and the amount of layers on the Roland SN is unknown. Both use special interpolation algorithms to smooth out layer transitions, but the Numa concert does that as well, so layer transitions should be inaudible. All-in-all the NUMA offers the most layers of these offerings and some nice sounding piano modeling effects and has the most recent recorded piano sample base of all brands, apart from the coming Kurzweil Artis. All the other known brands have been using the same old or older base material for years in a row , just adding an extra layer or longer samples here and there or offering an extra modeling effect (Roland added soundboard resonance, but seems to have ditched the lid simulation). So the NUMA seems to be a nice package offering - presumably - good keys and fresh new and dynamic piano sounds.

Indeed it doesn't have the speakers...

Isnt it the same keybed as the one used in the Physis Piano ?
I tested the Physis piano and found the keybed quite good (but not superior to others brand)

Seems to be the same yes. Again all from product info, Internet posts and hearsay; neither the Physis , nor the Studiologics are on display here. What's also important is how well the keybed and sound are matched , giving the player good feedback and control over what he/ she is playing. Just a good keybed is only half of the story, though its the starting point, cause a good sound with shitty keybed = big frustration & no use.

I know we are getting a bit (very) side tracked here, but....
JFP check this Roland video. It seems that Super Natural has a different technology concerning the dynamic layers.

Built in speakers are just preferable for me not a necessity which opens up more options. I already knew the MP6 and NX 700 didn't have them when I started the topic. Maybe they offer enough advantages to offset that deficiency though.

Yes I will have to rethink what I want as I'm still learning about the potential possibilities offered in DPs. I've picked up a lot of good info from this thread though but I'll know more when I've had the chance to visit a few shops and try them out.

Another thing I may do is take a couple of lessons from a teacher who specializes in adult beginners and gives a free trial. It'll give me a chance to get a good go on an acoustic so I have a point of reference when trying out DPs.

As an owner, 700NX is a heavy slab. I think you should look at the Yamaha P-105 just in case first. You're not going to find light weight, great piano sound, great key action, on-board speakers all-in-one. If my DP were suddenly destroyed, I would rush out and grab an economical P-105, personally.

According to the specs it's 25kg (55lbs) which would be ok. ES7 would be 22kg and the FP-80 23.8kg so not much between them. It's Nothing like my old CRT TV which weighed nearly 50kg and something I had to carry (with someone else) up and down the stairs a few times.

In terms of size I'd need to see them in person. So far I've only seen and tried out the MP6 which didn't seem too big at all.

If you are an absolute beginner perhaps you shouldn't go for NX or MP6, as they are designed for live music, I mean both are true stage pianos with lots of functions you'll never use.
The ES7 and FP80 are portable but mostly built for home pratice or small gigs, they include less sounds and buttons and are relatively simple to use.
The quality of AP sounds is about the same in this range, and it will end in a matter of taste. ES7 has good average sounds and speakers, and I guess the same for Rolands and other brads. I don't know how many time you are going to dedicate to your daily lessons/practice, but unless you were a genius, such NX or the like will run out of parts before you use half of its functions. And the time you should spend playing or studing music, will be spent reading user's guide.
I would stay near ES7/FP80/Yam. P155 range.
(I won't drive a Porsche as a daily first car).

I am beginner and I tried the yamaha CP 50 and roland fp7.I didn´t like the piano sound(SN) in the FP7, metalic sound for my amateur ears.The cp 50 piano sound is better for me, the action seemed better too, heavier Keys than fp 7 keys.The EPs in CP 50 are good for my taste. Are there better EPs in FP 80 or CP50?

Is that the fp-7 or fp-7f? The fp-7 is quite a bit older isn't it whereas the fp-7f is very similar to the fp-80? I've arranged a lesson on an acoustic next week so that I'll have a better idea of what to look for when I go to the shops. Might have a couple more too on different pianos to get started. My nephew gets occasional access to a grand piano and a Yamaha Clavinova DP at his school and he'll come along too.

How does the new Casio Px-5S compare to the others? Key touch, sound quality, extra sounds/features etc. It seems small and very light but are the keys shortened to achieve that?

Sorry, I wanted to say FP7F not FP7. FP 80 I Watched in the internet video and the EPs are better than FP7F and AP has a metalic sound too. I liked Kawai ES7 , but the AP soud of CP 50 is better for my taste, but it must be replaced in the next year, probably.

About the metallic sound, based on my experience with my HP-505, which pretty much has the same electronics inside as the FP7F / FP-80, according to what I read about those portables:

The following parameters affect very similar parts of the sound, and thus should be adjusted in relation to each other:
KEY TOUCH (= key dynamics to volume and timbre translation)
BRILLIANCE (= brightness of sound adjustment)

If I have either too sensitive reacting KEY TOUCH or too high BRILLIANCE adjusted, then heavy strikes on the keys easily result in the timbre to feature too strong the overtones which color the sound towards a more "metallic" timbre. These overtones are in general nice and natural to have, i.e for hitting low tones ff or high tones fff. Well, if not adjusted well, then these overtones already appear on my HP-505 dominant at mf and f playing, which is of course too exaggerating. I suppose that this is what you experience as well and commented on.

My simple solution is, to never play with the neutral KEY TOUCH setting.
I sometimes play with the KEY TOUCH = H2 (the most heavy setting), then these overtones hardly appear anymore, already no more for the midrange tones, they are only achievable for the low tones. I at H2 do balance BRILLIANCE to the max value (= 10) then, in order to compensate for in my taste a generally already too strong reduction of the bright overtones everywhere. If here not rising the BRILLIANCE extremely, then the sound can sound muffled, but if compensated with the BRILLIANCE then to me SN sound is (almost) perfectly fine. I say almost, because I love these overtones at ff playing, and at H2 to my impression they are already restricted too much and the BRILLIANCE compensating is not completely satisfying.

So, most often I play at KEY TOUCH = H1, and then balance BRILLIANCE = 7. With some reverb (AMBIENCE = 3) this to me sounds just perfect, not muffled, sweet and warm up to f, and at ff to fff able to explode in volume with a nicely accompanying change of less warm but sharper and brighter timbre during the attack phase of the tone.

(with headphones I by the way don´t need to rise BRILLIANCE. I use for H2 the BRILLIANCE at its neutral value, and for H1 even lower it to "-2")

Had my first lesson today, on an acoustic (a Kawai) in a piano shop. Been a while since I had the chance to touch an acoustic piano but it felt as I expected it to however the keys were really quite slippery.

On the way out I noticed a digital, the Kawai CS7 I think.
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CS_KDP/cs7.html
Not sure if it's the same one but it had that wooden key sample you see in MP10 vids and the piano looked just like the one in the link. I could really notice the difference in feel between the acoustic I'd just been learning on and this one. Also it had non slip keys. It was switched off though so I couldn't hear it's sound.

Is Kawai's grand feel action as good as it gets on a DP?

I think you are talking about two different things. Action refers to not the caps on the keys but the mechanism that allows the hammer to strike the strings (or in the DP's case, the imitation of that feel). Some APs and DPs will have a faux ivory feel to the keys, others just plastic. Maybe I misunderstood your post, so sorry if that's the case.

All DPs and APs have a different feel, and even if you are playing two Kawai APs they will feel different depending on how it's been regulated and voiced. DPs are generally more consistent in the action between instruments of the same model, but DPs of the same make can be quite different.

Yes I was describing two different things, the feel of the key surface and the action of the keys. I tried out a Yamaha acoustic today and that did feel a little different (slightly heavier keys and not as slippery). However they both felt noticeably different (action & key surface) to the the DP in the shop (CS7?). I would need more time to test them really but I was expecting a great DP action like that (Grand Feel?) to be closer at least from my inexperienced viewpoint.

Finally had a chance to try them all out today and also the Kawai CA95 and MP10.

The FP-80 which I had been most likely to go for and which was set up just below an ES7 was very disappointing. The piano sound was weak and dull and the other voices didn't impress. The ES7 on the other hand sounded much brighter, clearer and more powerful. The church organ sound was also very nice. Couldn't really tell which was the better of the 2 in terms of action.

The CA95 felt and sounded really good, the pedals felt exactly like on the Kawai acoustic I'd been playing just before. If I could find a good permanent spot for this in the house I'd seriously consider it.

RD-700NX I think was hurt by the speakers they had on it in there. It sounded rather muffled. I was however very impressed with the Mid Pipe Organ voice, it was probably my favourtie organ sound out of those I tried. This was way ahead of the others in terms of sounds/features and I'm sure we'd have a lot of fun with them. The action felt quite different from all the others I noticed, don't know how to describe it. The FP-80 is supposed to feel the same but didn't to me.

The MP10 I thought had the action that came closest to the Kawai acoustic Piano I'd been playing. It also had the heaviest keys (a good thing I think). Sound wise I can't recall too well as I was focusing more on the action and again the speakers might not have been ideal. It has the least number of instrument voices and no organs which is unfortunate. It's rather bulky and heavy too but not unmanageable. It also doesn't have the triple sensor of the others but does this really matter that much? I'm a beginner but would it become significant later on?

After today I'm veering towards the MP10 for it's highly impressive key action. I will learn to use VST's to get round the lack of sounds on it. I'll go back next week with my headphones and hopefully make a final decision soon after.

When trying to FP pianos, be sure to take into consideration that the piano sounds (Roland's SuperNatural Piano) are quite customizable. You can change many different resonance settings as well as the EQ. It's totally possible that someone else had changed the settings to create a duller sound before you (if, in fact, you didn't try changing any of them). The RD series, of course, has the same settings and at least theoretically the same basic piano sounds (and you're right about the speakers that were connected to it -- try those two side by side with headphones and if the customizable piano settings are set the same on both, I'll bet the sound will be identical or very close).

I'm less familiar with Kawai digitals, but will agree that the MP10 feels awesome. I love Roland's SuperNatural piano sounds though, and their action is great as well.

Yes I think you must be right about that. I can't see how the FP-80 would get as much praise as it does if it normally sounded like it did in the shop. I'll look into the settings next time particularly on the 700NX which I found far more interesting to use.

Someone mentioned the ES7 had 4 layers. Is that to do with dynamics? 4 levels of touch response doesn't seem too impressive considering that's also what my 20 + year old keyboard has. It's another thing to look into next visit.

In theory, more velocity layers creates more natural sounding dynamics. In practice, not always the case. But I don't think any pianos had 4 velocity layers 20+ years ago. Your "touch response" reference sounds like it's probably a velocity curve setting, which is entirely different.

Yes possibly I don't understand the differences as I'm quite new to all this. Next time I'll be going to the shop directly after a lesson on an acoustic hopefully with my teacher in tow. I'll also be interested to test the 2 sensor vs 3 sensor feature on these models. It's a bit of a concern with regards the MP10 which I really liked.

I have an MP6; it has 4 Zones - is that what you mean?
Each zone can be the full keyboard or any part of it, and each can have a different sound, or Layer

No, I meant the levels of volume you get depending on how hard/fast you strike the key.

I still remember when I went to keyboard class 20 years ago the keyboards they had us playing on didn't have this at all. My own keyboard at home had touch response though and far better sound so I used to think I had something special

Although the ES may or may not be using 4 sampled layers of different volume strikes (e.g. pp mp mf ff); that's not something you will notice because of the PHI processing which smooths the sound all the way going from ppp to fff. So no audible switches or anything, don't worry about that. Piano's with many more layers may, or may not sound better, depending on the additional algorithms used (like PHI / SN) and on the quality of the samples itself and the way they gradually match each other in increasing velocity. Amount of ROM, layers, samples doesn't say all about the sound and playability of the DP. You can have 5GB piano emulations, with 16 layers and still a crappy end result.

PHI = Progressive Harmonic Imaging (Kawai)
SN = Super Natural (Roland)

I was having a really hard time deciding and ended up wanting to choose between the RD700NX and the MP10 but considering the talk about successors for both by next year I didn't go for either.

I was very tempted to get the ES7 especially considering there were a couple of places selling it at just over £1100 with the lovely furniture stand and triple pedal attachment for free. That's about the same price a Yamaha P-155 goes for here without any stand/triple pedal. The rather shallow key travel put me off though and I felt it's action was overshadowed by the MP10. The RD700NX also overshadowed the FP-80 for me too.

I ended up getting a cheap Yamaha P-35 for now just to get started which I'll likely sell off and upgrade from when the successors to the MP10 and NX eventually come out. For it's price (£350 including a free stand, headphones and sustain pedal) I'm impressed.

When I was in the shops trying out Yamaha's however I made the mistake of going from the CVP 609 and AvantGrand series to the P-35. It had a light, plastic and somewhat hollow feeling to the action in comparison. Still when I compared it to my old keyboard it was a major upgrade and when playing at home now I can really feel and hear the difference. I'd also like to learn to use VST's with it. If I got confident enough with that I could also consider upgrading to the VPC1 in the future.

What exactly did you like better about RD700NX than FP80?

Mainly the extra sounds & features on it. My teacher who tried it out seemed to like the Studio Grand piano sound on the NX best which is not featured on the FP-80. There were a number of other great sounds on the NX that were missing on the FP-80 like the impressive Mid Pipe organ. I mentioned before that I noticed a subtle difference in the key touch but the last time I went to the shop I didn't get enough chance to check up on this more.

The ES7 placed just above the FP-80 also blew it away in terms of sound and power. As someone else mentioned in this thread however this might have been caused by the settings on the FP-80.

Dude where did you find the ES7 for £1100 with stand and pedal unit?

Myself I am very very stuck between 700nx (£1400) and ES7, nowhere has an ES7 to try.

£1124 to be exact. It was at the Reidys home of music website. I believe it's the furniture stand and triple pedal unit being sold with it but I'd check with them to confirm.
http://www.reidys.com/pr/keyboards-...son&gclid=CNLfobHlgrgCFZIPtAody1IA8A
I got my P-35 from them with no problems.

Where did you find the 700NX for £1400? It's normally £2000 to £2120 new. I found a 2nd hand one at £1500.

Private sale, a band recently broke up and they are selling their kit.

Interesting discussion. I've got a yamaha dgx 505 and have been trying to educate myself recently on what's out there in the digital piano world since I'm ready for an upgrade. Man, is it complicated. I like the more extensive sampling on the es7. But when I compare its 30 sounds to the fp80s 300, for the same price, part of the complication. The kawaii mp6 has a few hundred sounds but there mp10 only has 30? What gives?

Anyway, I'm thinking of going with a bundled package from Kraft music. Guess their sales guy is starting to get a little tired of my waffling. I was almost sold on the fp80 with a set of studio monitors. But now from what I'm reading here, maybe the monitors aren't needed.