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Update:

Have already conducted a test on my new Ivory Feel replacement keys where I take the edge of a finger nail to see if a very small mark/scratch can be made, on a high "A" white key, for example... unfortunately, this can be easily done.

Have only had the new Ivory Feel keys for a short while as it may take two to three months before the wear starts to show up, and, minute scratches become more numerous with time.*

This is disappointing to find out since the original issue obviously remains unresolved.

How many key bed swaps are needed to acquire resilient key tops?

*After more use occurs, it is possible to see a powdery substance flake off of the keys due to the scratching, and, have to wonder if this loose stuff might eventually mess up the sensors/mechanism under the keys?

New request:

Would like to ask everyone out there with a Roland board (that has the Ivory Feel keys) to post their pictures so that we all can see how the key tops deteriorate, and, as to what degree of wear has occurred.
If it were me, and I really liked the piano, I'd live with it. If the wear becomes noticeable during the warranty period, just get Roland to replace it again.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/26/12 04:22 AM
There is no point in making yet another exchange for a set of keys that will do the same thing, if resilient keys are not available.*

And, at some point the warranty period ends, too.

*Extra note:

If anyone has pictures to share of their deteriorating key tops, this is the place to do so.
I have a few macro photos of the surface of mine, before I got the (RD700NX) key bed replaced:

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8354.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8355.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8360.jpg

The new ones show no sign of wear until now, despite heavy use.

They also have a significantly different feel/texture, and I'm certain they are a different "formulation" than the previous set of keys. They feel less open, and probably sits right between the previous Ivory feel keys (that I actually liked otherwise) and more "normal" plastic keys.

Not sure if this helps you, though; I'm truly sorry to hear you keep having problems! As mentioned elsewhere, Roland have been very helpful to rectify the problems here for me, and I would hope their representatives elsewhere could be at least half as helpful and fix this with a new set of keys for you, now on the 2nd attempt :-)


-- Per.
Originally Posted by Per Baekgaard
I have a few macro photos of the surface of mine, before I got the (RD700NX) key bed replaced:

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8354.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8355.jpg

http://www.b4net.dk/photos/DirectLink/D3C_8360.jpg

The new ones show no sign of wear until now, despite heavy use.

They also have a significantly different feel/texture, and I'm certain they are a different "formulation" than the previous set of keys. They feel less open, and probably sits right between the previous Ivory feel keys (that I actually liked otherwise) and more "normal" plastic keys.

Not sure if this helps you, though; I'm truly sorry to hear you keep having problems! As mentioned elsewhere, Roland have been very helpful to rectify the problems here for me, and I would hope their representatives elsewhere could be at least half as helpful and fix this with a new set of keys for you, now on the 2nd attempt :-)


-- Per.


After looking at those photos, I would have to say, that wear is unacceptable. Perhaps they should go back to using what I had on my Roland A80.
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
After looking at those photos, I would have to say, that wear is unacceptable. Perhaps they should go back to using what I had on my Roland A80.


smile

Bear in mind, though, that the images are taken with directional light meant to illustrate the problem, are close-ups taken with a macro lens on a D-SLR, and processed to increase the contrast in order to clearly document the problem.

So it may look a bit worse than it felt -- even though I agree that this amount of wear was not acceptable so quickly (and as said, was promptly fixed by Roland). It could even have been that my particular keyboard was suffering from some other production defect, so this may not be the typical case.


-- Per.
Wow, what camera are you using Per?

James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Wow, what camera are you using Per?


My current main camera is a Nikon D300, and the optics used here was the Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 AF-S VR. I used a pin-light placed some meters away from the keys, and almost flush with the keys, to enhance the contrast.

The D300 is a wonderful camera, although it is getting a bit old by now. I'm waiting for a D800, but Nikon has a long backlog globally, it seems, so it will take a while to get it... but luckily the D300 still works very well!

:-)
I don't remember real Ivory being so textured. Why would Roland exaggerate what they are trying to emulate? And in the process make something so easy to damage. Where is the super-natural keys when you need them.
Originally Posted by pv88
There is no point in making yet another exchange for a set of keys that will do the same thing, if resilient keys are not available.*

And, at some point the warranty period ends, too.

You did ask, before your original post was edited, for other people's opinions as to what to do. It seems as if you have already decided that the problem is not fixable (unless Roland have something else up their sleeve), so why not be done with the issue and return the V?
My friend has an FP-7F and the keyboard shows no signs of wear.

I think it's the same keyboard as the v-piano? Or similar. PHAIII something.

I tried the fingernail test, ahem, when he was out of the room and could not mark the key surface. There is a non-gloss texture and grain close up, but it seems quite hard.

Difficult to imagine that Roland have not fixed this, especially for the v. Maybe you've just been unlucky, or worse experienced some incompetence by local Roland support. Definitely talk to Roland at a national level.
My white keys (not the whole keybed) were individually replaced and have no wear whatsoever since then, despite some hard-hitting stuff......
I've just checked my FP-7F and can detect no wear of the "Ivory" surface.
When I had my FP7F, I had zero wear and I used it very heavily (2-3 hours a day). There was not even a slight hint of wear. Just to compare my laptop keys ALWAYS have wear.

Perhaps the FP-7F key surfaces are more resistant than the RD-700/V-Piano/HP-30x?

Cheers,
James
x
Yes they are. And they look different too - slightly whiter and slightly less textured.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Yes they are. And they look different too - slightly whiter and slightly less textured.

So then the question is whether the physical form of the keys is the same? If they are, Roland can use keys from the 7F to replace the ones in the v, if they don't have 'good' stock of assembled keybeds for the v. Something here doesn't add up yet.
It's quite possible that, given the different color substructure for the FP-7F, the keys are manufactured on different production lines, possibly using slightly different plastic formulations. I suspect - although I have no proof - that the keybed/action is completely interchangeable across the PHAIII models.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by voxpops
It's quite possible that, given the different color substructure for the FP-7F, the keys are manufactured on different production lines, possibly using slightly different plastic formulations. I suspect - although I have no proof - that the keybed/action is completely interchangeable across the PHAIII models.


@voxpops,

Yes, you are more than likely correct about the different formulations being used across these different models, and, there also may be different "batches" of this formulation that has been manufactured, at different times.

Important note:

However, it is not true that you can put an FP-7F key bed (or, any other model for that matter) into a V-Piano, since these actions are inherently different in some detail, as Roland has already told me only V-Piano actions/key beds are manufactured for the V, and, none other.

This means that substitution between the V and other models is not currently possible, and, even standard plastic keys (of any kind) are not available for the V, either.

The new keys I received look and feel almost exactly identical to the original ones, and, the scratch test proves the inevitable wear, just as before.

Nothing has changed... just swapped one key bed out for another, of more or less equal materials.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 02:29 AM
Extra note:

Also, look at the photos above as that was exactly what was happening to the original keys I had on my V-Piano. The new set of keys appear to be almost identical to the others as I expect similar wear, again.

It that isn't bad enough in itself, the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up. No fairy tales this time, just raw facts.

What I don't get about this is that a real piano will show similar signs of wear after time and the RD700NX at least that I can see doesn't seem to my eyes to be significantly worse then the previous RD700GX and neither caused any issues in playability.
Originally Posted by pv88
...the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up.


I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?




Posted By: alekkh Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 02:57 AM
As a V-Piano owner, I see just one probable cause for scratched keys:


The Hands
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?


Well, perhaps this hasn't happened as of yet, but I do want Roland to ponder over the five questions I just sent them (via e-mail "Support" on their website), since it might just open their half-shut sleepy eyes just a little:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Product: V-Piano

Subject: Particle debris from keys / Five (5) questions

Question(s):

1) How do you prevent the plastic debris (of tiny particles) from the "Ivory Feel" keys from screwing up the sensors/action underneath, due to fingernail scratching?
2) Does vacuuming the keys now become a mandatory procedure?
3) Is 3-5 months normal wear time expectancy for these keys?
4) How many key bed changes are allowed under warranty?
5) After warranty runs out, what do you provide?

Answers:

1) Not possible
2) Yes
3) Maybe, I dunno...
4) Can't count that high
5) Nada

Response: Pending

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roland will probably think that I am either a nut, or joking, however, I am serious with getting them to look at the issues.
My keys on my RD-700GXF wore just like the pictures above. And to be honest, I liked the rougher feel. I wish I could put the ivory feel keys in my Nord.

I'm not trivialising Richard's disappointment at all, because he saved for a long time and spent a lot of money and to be fair, if three other major brands, Kawai, Yamaha, and Casio can put out Ivory feel keys and not have issues with scratching and deteriorating coatings, I'm not sure what Roland's problem is. They've been dealing with this for 4 years ever since they launched the RD-700GX with the first ivory feel keys.
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
What I don't get about this is that a real piano will show similar signs of wear after time and the RD700NX at least that I can see doesn't seem to my eyes to be significantly worse then the previous RD700GX and neither caused any issues in playability.


Well, I have a real grand a few meters away from my RD700NX here also. The keys are real ivory and are likely around 80 years old. They show no sign of comparable wear, and -- due to the fact that they are ivory -- are very easy to polish to the degree you'd like, thus maintaining them in a good condition.

As for the scratches you've seen on the images above, then it did impact the playability for me, as these rough spots on some of the keys felt like I had "gunk" on my fingers (which I'm quite sensitive of when playing) -- depending on which key I played in :-) And yes, this happened also when playing somewhere "for real", not only when sitting at home.

The new keys feel very different and show no sign of wear. I think they are similar or identical to the FP7F keys that are currently being manufactured, from what I've seen.

My own theory is that there may have been several generations of key formulation over time, but I don't know for sure, obviously.


-- Per.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by pv88
...the particles of plastic that come off may very well get lodged in the sensors/action below the keys, screwing stuff up.


I do not recall seeing any reports of this happening from other Roland owner's. I wonder if you're not being just a little melodramatic?


I don't think the sensors will be impacted by the white dust that rips of; as far as I know they are pretty well sealed.

A small amount of white dust is there, of course, and can be seen on the keys after playing. I've never personally noticed "white fingers" after playing although others might have?


-- Per.
Originally Posted by ZacharyForbes
My keys on my RD-700GXF wore just like the pictures above. And to be honest, I liked the rougher feel. I wish I could put the ivory feel keys in my Nord.


You're not the only one saying so! I've heard that from others too. The original ivory feel keys are really great playing on (disregarding the wear for a minute).

I also spent some time thinking whether I should just live with it or not, but in the end I preferred a "cleaner" feeling keyboard even if it felt a bit more like normal plastic keys.


-- Per.
Originally Posted by alekkh
As a V-Piano owner, I see just one probable cause for scratched keys:

The Hands


Well, there is probably some truth in that, but it is not the only part of the equation:

Old Keys := The keybed my RD700NX came with
New Keys := The keybed that has now replaced the Old Keys

Old Keys + My Hands + 2 months => Noticeable wear

Old Keys + Someone Else's Hands + 2 hours => Significantly increased wear

New Keys + My Hands + 2 months => Absolutely NO signs of any wear

Old Keys + Unknown Hands + N months => Sometimes no wear, sometimes wear


If needed, I could upload a picture of my hands for reference (just joking)... They are in clean condition, with very short nails (otherwise they get in the way of my fretless bass playing).


So if anywhere, the old YMMV certainly seems to imply here :-)


My old and new keys are indeed very different, and I was alerted to this fact before I got them replaced, so that I would know they feel different and more closed. Some like the old keys better (I actually did). If they had not been showing significant wear, I would have kept them, so I understand why someone that has softer hands and no wear may want to keep them :-)


-- Per.
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 09:21 PM
Update:

It has been suggested to me that I now try to reach Roland HQ (at the corporate level) to see if I can't get something done for getting a new set of keys that actually do have the resilient key tops, and, not just guess work.

If the next key bed doesn't have resilient non-scratch keys then I am just wasting my time with getting the key bed swapped out, again.

The new keys I had been given now (after a long 8 week wait) are going to eventually show wear, just like the original ones.

Is there someone at Roland that can confirm resilient non-scratch key tops in advance, before the key bed ships out?

Otherwise, there is no reason to send it!
Have you spoken, not email, to a manager at Roland customer support?
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/27/12 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Have you spoken, not email, to a manager at Roland customer support?


Yes, I have already tried talking with several people now at Roland customer support, and, they are saying to ask my local shop to reorder another key bed since the shop does the work.

Why keep reordering key beds since they are not scratch resistant?
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/28/12 05:02 AM
Extra note:

Here is my latest correspondence with Roland Corporation representative, Roger Halvorson, and, he tells me this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Richard,

As you can imagine, Roland has sold a lot of pianos with the ivory feel finish in the last several years and our service department tells us there is a very small percentage of service requests or repairs for these keyboards. We have tried to be as straighfoward with you as we can and have shipped the latest keyboard we could get from Japan for your piano. It may be that there will be a different model or update of this keyboard in the future, but for now, this is all we have available.

Regarding the pictures, we can't comment on them since we don't really know how this particular instrument has been played or what has been done. We do have several keyboards open and in use here at our offices in Los Angeles, and have not seem this type of scoring. At this point, we would just ask that you try playing the piano for a while and make your own conclusions on how it is wearing as you go. If you have any problems, we will do our best to take care of you.

Best Regards,

Roger Halvorson
Roland Corp. U.S.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please note where he mentions "this is all we have available" meaning that the key bed sent from Japan is their most current stuff, although it appears that it is still going to show wear just as the original key bed did.

I am now asking Mr. Halvorson to get in touch with our bennevis here, to confirm his success with the Roland (UK) keys, and, to see if he can't get the same all "white key replacements" from Roland (UK), as it appears that Roland (US) does not have any to offer, according to Mr. Halvorson.

1) Why should Roland (UK) key beds be any different from Roland (US)?

2) Roland (US) doesn't have the same "white key replacements?"
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/29/12 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by bennevis
My white keys (not the whole keybed) were individually replaced and have no wear whatsoever since then, despite some hard-hitting stuff......


Important update:

I have to believe that the above statement is the key to fixing V-Piano's with key wear, since bennevis' white keys replacement has apparently done the job.

The only question that remains for Roland (US), is:

What white keys (exactly) were used in bennevis' service repair in the UK, and, can this be accomplished, here?

I am currently waiting on a reply from Roland to see if this is an option, as it may be a viable solution.

The current full (88-note) key bed I received from Japan is not resilient to wear, as such.
Posted By: ando Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/29/12 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by bennevis
My white keys (not the whole keybed) were individually replaced and have no wear whatsoever since then, despite some hard-hitting stuff......


Important update:

I have to believe that the above statement is the key to fixing V-Piano's with key wear, since bennevis' white keys replacement has apparently done the job.

The only question that remains for Roland (US), is:

What white keys (exactly) were used in bennevis' service repair in the UK, and, can this be accomplished, here?

I am currently waiting on a reply from Roland to see if this is an option, as it may be a viable solution.

The current full (88-note) key bed I received from Japan is not resilient to wear, as such.


Maybe Bennevis could do you a favour and make some enquiries with his repairer or at least put you in touch with them. It's got to be possible if it's been done once.
Posted By: bfb Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/29/12 05:38 PM
i don't get it.... i 've had a v-piano for over 2 years and i play it a lot (but not daily) across a variety of styles and key pressures- and i've seen absolutely no wear on the keys at all. could it be because i keep my fingernails very short and play somewhat flathanded with the soft pads of my fingertips (which may be lousy posture or not) as the main striking surface?
Might be Bruce - but I really think Roland's plastic is made in batches - and it's probably out-sourced. That's just my guess anyway. Some wears a lot, some really doesn't wear. There are first generation Ivory Feel keys out there (now five years old) that are still fine. I bet there are people out there who have played a lot on two Ivory Feel pianos and seen wear on one but not another.

I could also be persuaded that there might be an element of chemistry going on between different human beings (the concentrations of substances in the individual's sweat and skin oils perhaps) in conjunction with different batches/formulations of this plastic that have a greater or lesser hardness (for want of a better word).

It might be quite a complex set of circumstances that gives rise to wear or no wear. In any event, it is all entirely unacceptable in my view - if Casio/Yamaha/Kawai can do it right I'm sure Roland should be able to as well.
Keep us informed pv88 as my V-piano still has no signs of keytop wear yet. However I do cut my fingernails short and I wash my hands before playing. Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones and got a good batch of synthetic ivory keytops. The display V-piano at Sam Ashe is simply in terrible shape and has turned a nasty brown color from all the playing. It is super rough and interesting to play as it feels like a 100 year old bar piano with keys that have never been cleaned or they have been cleaned with sandpaper. If I'm the only one playing my V, then I don't see that ever happening.
My FP-7F has the Ivory Feel (I think) and it doesn't scratch at all...:O (I love the key texture by the way)
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 04/30/12 08:46 PM
@Kona_V-Piano,

Sure would like to see some photos of the display V-Piano at your Sam Ash store, if you could somehow snap some pictures of the keys?

I imagine that a small cell phone (with built-in camera) would do the job!

This could be documented here, and, sent to Roland.
Originally Posted by pv88
@Kona_V-Piano,

Sure would like to see some photos of the display V-Piano at your Sam Ash store, if you could somehow snap some pictures of the keys?

I imagine that a small cell phone (with built-in camera) would do the job!

This could be documented here, and, sent to Roland.


I don't think the Sam Ashe V-Piano would be cause for alarm from Roland as it has been played on by a hundred thousand people in and out of the Dolphin Mall. Every display piano there has keys that look old and dirty, however none worse than all the Roland's Ivory piano's. I don't know anybody that would purchase that used model unless they could get Roland to honor the warranty and have the keys replaced. I actually was going to purchase the V-piano they had new in the box from them a week before a manager there decided to open the second V-piano and place it on display. (silly to have two of them out) In one week, the brand new V-piano looked like it had been through he11 and had water cup stains on the top, and worse, two smashed corners from being removed from the box improperly. The stand wasn't built correctly either. Overall I am glad that happened as I ended up saving about a thousand dollars purchasing online.
Hi pv88,

I have the same problem with my HP-305. I purchased it last year and had regular usage, not too often, for example, playing 1~2 hours every two or three days. Here is my picture, taken by iPhone:

Picture 1

Picture 2

I am in Beijing. I have contacted local Roland support and asked for a replacement. He didn't make a positive response and argued that I reported the issue too late so that he can't tell if this is due to bad use. I am disappointed and angry by his saying. I know there are cases in the forum and they have gotten a replacement, at least the support is willing to satisfy their customers.

Next I'm going to escalate the issue to a higher roland department/people, even to the corporate headquarter. But I don't know their contacts. Can you share how you do that? or give me advice how to take next action? Thank you!
Posted By: pv88 Re: Roland V-Piano "Ivory Feel" key tops wear - 05/06/12 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by bennevis
My white keys (not the whole keybed) were individually replaced and have no wear whatsoever since then, despite some hard-hitting stuff......


Exactly what "WHITE KEYS" were used, and, why doesn't Roland (USA) service V-Pianos here in the same way?

Or, did the UK service tech just use some keys from another board?

Receiving a new set of keys that scratch up is unacceptable.
@pianoismydream,

Thanks for the photos, as this is yet another example of the unacceptable key top material being used by Roland.

Sorry that I can't help you with your HP-305, however, you might have a better chance in getting a new set of resilient keys, since the V-Piano has a slightly different key bed than your model.

I am currently fighting a battle here in keeping a V-Piano, although it doesn't look very good if they can't come up with something to fix it. This has to be a permanent solution.
Extra note:

Have just informed my original seller (gigasonic.com) that I would return the V-Piano if a permanent solution cannot be found for the deteriorating keys.

I am requesting that Roger Halvorson (from Roland Corp.) look into getting the "white key" replacements that bennevis received, in the UK.
pv88, with the greatest respect, I don't believe it is the purpose of this forum to air your grievances about Roland.

Clearly you are unsatisfied with the key surfaces of your V-Piano, but I don't believe it's necessary for you to continuously spam the forum with updates that few PianoWorld visitors are concerned about.

By all accounts Roland have an excellent reputation for customer support, and I'm confident that the representatives you are in correspondence will continue to do everything they can to improve the situation.

Kind regards,
James
x
@Kawai James

..sorry, but I see this completely different - I think the very detailed updates of pv88 are very important to show up how a big company is dealing with issues ongoing since years (key wear) ..without any real solution.

I was just "seconds" away from buying a V-Piano ..before I read pv`s comments and from what I see he is really not complaining in any unfair way .. in my opinion he is working in a focused and directed way to get some (bloody) answers from Roland.

Please don`t change the facts - it`s the problem of Roland to sell such keys on such expensive instruments and ... it`s not pv88 who`s the problem by only doing what`s his "good right"..finding facts/answers/solutions...
Cosmo4711, okay, I accept that I was perhaps a little harsh in my previous post.

I believe it's okay for pv88 and others to provide relevant information about the issue affecting their instrument. However, I maintain that the current strategy employed by pv88 is becoming rather excessive - it's almost as if he believes that the more negative posts he writes about Roland, the sooner his problem will be resolved. I don't agree with this practise.

Kind regards,
James
x
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Cosmo4711, okay, I accept that I was perhaps a little harsh in my previous post.

I believe it's okay for pv88 and others to provide relevant information about the issue affecting their instrument. However, I maintain that the current strategy employed by pv88 is becoming rather excessive - it's almost as if he believes that the more negative posts he writes about Roland, the sooner his problem will be resolved. I don't agree with this practise.

Kind regards,
James
x


I read his intentions a little differently. PV88 seems extremely detail oriented and I read his posts as just continuing to be that way. But I do agree that there aren't going to be very many other people who care about that level of detail.
Support is a key issue (no pun intended) for DP buyers, many of whom purchase online. What's useful for intending purchasers is to know the way individual companies respond to grievances or issues. Reading threads on this forum, you begin to build up quite a clear picture about the type of response you can expect from manufacturers and their agents. I think that is one area where this type of thread is invaluable.

However, we all respond differently to problems - some are sanguine, and others fret continually. Threads can become irritating to read - but there is no obligation to continue reading. As much as consumers need to be cautious about expecting perfection (some even see problems where none really exist), those in the industry should guard against becoming too "clubby" - it's something that bedevils business and politics alike, to the detriment of ordinary people.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
By all accounts Roland have an excellent reputation for customer support, and I'm confident that the representatives you are in correspondence will continue to do everything they can to improve the situation.

Kind regards,
James
x


I would like to believe that Roland's customer support is "excellent" as mentioned here. Although the issue is simply finding a set of permanent keys for the V, and, it doesn't appear like things are headed in that direction.

The current (new) key beds from Japan are apparently not scratch resistant as I have already made this known to Roland, directly. It would be a real shame to have to return the V just on account of it having deteriorating key tops. I am willing to accept standard plastic keys, or, discuss ways in which the key top material could be buffed off and removed.

This is something Roland should consider if they do not want to lose their customers in the long run, as I have been sincere and forthright with my requests. If a customer in the UK can receive satisfactory results, then why not here for the rest of us, in the US?

The responsibility of manufacturing scratch resistant Ivory Feel key tops lies directly with Roland.
Originally Posted by pv88


The responsibility of manufacturing scratch resistant Ivory Feel key tops lies directly with Roland.


It does, and I would even go to the extent of saying if they can't locate the scratch resistant keytops, they could get off their behinds and make up a set especially for you. This whole myth that things need to be tooled up for mass-production in order to be made is rubbish. There is no reason they couldn't do a small run, or even a single run of keybeds with hard plastic. It might be annoying to them, but it really wouldn't cost them anything. They already own the machines that shaped the tops, they already own the harder material. Get busy and make up a set or two! Heck, it would probably prove to be a money saver because then they would have an option on the shelf for all these customers who complain about the ivory keytops. Roland seems to be trying, but their solutions lack imagination and effectiveness.
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by pv88


The responsibility of manufacturing scratch resistant Ivory Feel key tops lies directly with Roland.


It does, and I would even go to the extent of saying if they can't locate the scratch resistant keytops, they could get off their behinds and make up a set especially for you. This whole myth that things need to be tooled up for mass-production in order to be made is rubbish. There is no reason they couldn't do a small run, or even a single run of keybeds with hard plastic. It might be annoying to them, but it really wouldn't cost them anything. They already own the machines that shaped the tops, they already own the harder material. Get busy and make up a set or two! Heck, it would probably prove to be a money saver because then they would have an option on the shelf for all these customers who complain about the ivory keytops. Roland seems to be trying, but their solutions lack imagination and effectiveness.


@ando,

Thanks for the reply, as Roland should proceed with your suggestions, here. And, that would at least be a step in the right direction.
I now believe that I should not accept any keys from another keyboard as replacements, since this could affect the quality of the sounds, touch, and, connectivity of the playing. Since it is still not known as to exactly what kind of "white keys" were used in bennevis' repair (unless he wants to clarify this detail for all of us, here), then it's probably not a good idea to follow a similar repair, unless those keys can be proven to be absolutely scratch resistant as such. Still waiting to hear from either bennevis or Roland on this matter.

In the meanwhile, the best options for US customers would be:

1) For Roland to make/produce a new batch of scratch resistant "Ivory Feel" keys, just as many needed for customer requests.

2) Or, to make/produce the durable all-plastic standard keys.

First option is best, however, the second one is also good.

Current key bed exchanges (like mine) are unacceptable.
@pv88

Despite bennevis having received "new-"whiter"-keys" which are scratch-resistant....I got the feeling, that maybe he received the keys of FP-7F ?? ...and the only difference to your request is, that in the UK there was a (not-very-detail-orientated) "smart-and-cool" guy who thought .."who cares/who will mention/keys-are-keys" ??

Because if Roland-US says there are no other available options for the V-Piano ...why should they say that if that wouldn`t be the case?

I would completely agree with you and would not be willing to exchange the keys before I´m not a 100% on the safe side regarding functionality of the "new" keys.


Maybe you can get Ivorite key-tops from Yamaha (:
Originally Posted by Kawai James
pv88, with the greatest respect, I don't believe it is the purpose of this forum to air your grievances about Roland.

Clearly you are unsatisfied with the key surfaces of your V-Piano, but I don't believe it's necessary for you to continuously spam the forum with updates that few PianoWorld visitors are concerned about.

By all accounts Roland have an excellent reputation for customer support, and I'm confident that the representatives you are in correspondence will continue to do everything they can to improve the situation.

Kind regards,
James
x


Kawai, with all due respect, PV88 has been a productive member of this forum and I do not believe he has stepped over his boundaries in airing his grievances. Pretty much he is documenting for everyone to read if they so choose his conversations in great detail with Roland in a public forum. This may or may not help his situation directly or indirectly as I do not believe Roland even has a representative like you in this forum. However as a V-piano owner myself who is still under warranty, I am still interested in the final outcome good or bad.

What we do know is bennevis got different keys that do not exhibit any issues with his playing. He did have issues before with the original keybed and since his playing style and frequency hasn't changed, this means that a higher quality keybed exists that has been manufactured. Whether the keybed bennevis received is the same as the on on the FP-7F and a more strong ivory type keybed or simply the same keybed PV88 received as his replacement is interesting if we could find out. (that would mean playing style is the culprit) With the amount of playing that I do, and my keys not having any issues that I notice yet. I have mentioned that it could be that my playing style has a lot to do with me not having problems yet. I cut my nails short and they never touch the keys when I play. However it is possible that in a couple years after my warranty expires, that my keys from my standard playing get bad. However I don't think I could go through a key replacement as PV88 has regardless unless it was affecting how I play.

In either case, this forum has only a few V-piano owners, and those that are interested in buying a V-piano should not have to be worried about this being an issue for the most part with newer shipped that have the Evolution upgrade already installed indicating a newer made model.

When ordering online from Musicians Friend for example, I know for a fact all their V-piano's they currently have in stock have the Evolution update installed as mine did, and the keybed should be stronger than the original one used a couple years ago as Roland did try and resolve this key wear issue early on from what I understand.

My assumption is this issue is a combination of different quality batches of the material on the keys, as well as different chemical compositions on players fingers perhaps, and playing style. However bennevis not having an issue now with his replacement means that chemicals in the hands and playing style was not the main issue for him. That is why we must find out what we can about why his is perfect now while PV88's is exhibiting the same issues as before.
@Kona_V-Piano, and, everyone else:

Thanks for attempting to clarify my own thoughts on this matter as it really has been difficult to understand why Roland has not yet found a permanent solution for making resilient "Ivory Feel" keys.

Important question:

So, why doesn't Roland just proceed to manufacture several new sets of "Ivory Feel" keys that are scratch resistant, just for customers that are requesting them?

The only real solution will be for Roland to make/manufacture several more sets of new key beds, otherwise, nothing has been solved as wear continues for customers who own the V-Piano.

Still waiting to hear from Roland, on this.
Originally Posted by pv88
Still waiting to hear from Roland, on this.


Just did get word from Roland that there is a new key bed assembly* for the V-Piano as I am going to have my local shop order it.

The assembly will be shipped from Roland, Japan, so it will take several weeks in which to receive it, just as before.

Would like to remain hopeful that this one will have the scratch resistant key tops, as it is the 2nd exchange.

*Remains to be seen if this new assembly is any different from the current one I was just given.

Extra note:

I am also requesting that one of the keys (on the new assembly) should be "tested" as soon as it arrives at the shop. I will want to make a trip myself so that it can be determined if the keys are scratch resistant, prior to installing it into my piano.

Doesn't it make sense to check/test the new assembly first, in advance?
Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by pv88
Still waiting to hear from Roland, on this.


Just did get word from Roland that there is a new key bed assembly* for the V-Piano as I am going to have my local shop order it.

The assembly will be shipped from Roland, Japan, so it will take several weeks in which to receive it, just as before.

Would like to remain hopeful that this one will have the scratch resistant key tops, as it is the 2nd exchange.

*Remains to be seen if this new assembly is any different from the current one I was just given.

Extra note:

I am also requesting that one of the keys (on the new assembly) should be "tested" as soon as it arrives at the shop. I will want to make a trip myself so that it can be determined if the keys are scratch resistant, prior to installing it into my piano.

Doesn't it make sense to check/test the new assembly first, in advance?


I would ask the Roland representative if it is alright to make the scratch test on one key before it is installed as they are making this exchange under warranty. Perhaps Roland will not cover a 3rd exchange unless you do make the swap first, then give it a couple weeks of playing.

The last thing you want is to go and make the scratch test, discover that indeed it can easily get scratched, and then Roland is asking why you went ahead and damaged their new keybed before they even installed it. I know it sounds silly, however warranty coverage relies on you following instructions as well and not damaging on purpose any of the items. This scratch test might be considered you damaging the keybed. Just to be safe, ask Roland if you should even conduct the test at all before the swap/installation occurs.
I am requesting that Roland look into seeing if they can determine if the new assembly has scratch resistant keys, as it shouldn't leave Roland R&D in Japan without having been tested for key top resilience, before the assembly ships out.

Casio / Yamaha / Kawai, have not had any wear issues.
[Edited]

Go to posts, below.
I didn't want to get drawn into all this, but pv88 has already PMed & emailed me several times on this matter, and I've already given him all the information I know about the replacement white keys I was given, which is basically next to nothing....

For anyone new to this (anyone old can, er, shut their eyes grin), sometime in 2010 I phoned Roland UK's customer services - not the store I bought it from - when I botched two attempts to instal the Evolution upgrades (my fault, not Roland's - I've never downloaded anything from a website before, or since..). They told me not to mess around with my USB stick anymore but would send someone with a van to pick up my V-Piano to bring it back to their HQ (200 miles away), and then instal the upgrades for me, all for free. I took the opportunity to mention about the wear on the white keys, which didn't really bother me much, but they said their engineers would look into that also.

When my V-Piano was returned, there was a repair note with it saying that the Evolution upgrades had been installed and the 'white keys replaced'. The replacement keys looked identical to the old ones, with the same texture superficially, but after a while I realized that there is no wear - probably because there doesn't seem to be the 'sticky coating' on them as there was on the originals, and it was probably the coating that was wearing off if your nails hit the surfaces regularly.

The contact details of Roland UK are on their website www.roland.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go at finding out what replacement keys they used (they couldn't/wouldn't tell me, and I no longer have the repair slip that contained the dates and details) - I suspect they came from a different Roland model, maybe an older one with simple uncoated plastic.

By the way, pv88, noone from Roland USA has contacted me. But it is totally pointless anyway - they could just contact Roland UK directly if they wanted any information about what keys were used, and I'd have thought that Roland UK would be more forthcoming about their repair policy if Roland USA asked them, rather than a customer.
Very impressive service from Roland UK, bennevis. The fact that they listened to your secondary concern, and acted without prompting, is exemplary (not to mention paying for collection and delivery). This is the kind of thing that's worth remembering when having to pay a higher purchase price in UK/Europe.
Latest update:

Word is that a new key bed assembly has been released with a new part number, and, my local shop here is now ordering it. Will take up to 8 weeks or so to receive it, as before.

This is going to be the 2nd exchange, and, should I be more optimistic for the outcome, this time?*

The original key bed and first exchange were the same.

*It will be the third set of keys.
@bennevis,

I, too, am glad to hear that you were given a set of replacement keys for your V, as you are evidently happy with them, and, that's all that really matters for the customer. And, thanks for all of the info regarding your repair, as that was certainly very interesting!

That's all,

pv88
I have a slightly different questionr egarding the keys. I know it's a bit of my own fault, but i do not use a cover. I also live in a studio appartment, and i cook alot (foodie :P ).. the unfortunate sideeffect of living in a studio and cooking with oil, is that there's a lot of dust, and sticky dust going around.

My keys are becoming a bit... tainted and slightly sticky (not actualyl sticky, but it feels weird). How do you clean your keys?
I've owned an RG-3 for about 4 years now and I'm surprised this issue still persists in the latest generation of Rolands. I've gone through 4 sets of keys (now on my 4th and final courtesy of Rolands UK superb customer service) with various revisions of the PHAII keyboard. The keytop problem has always been there to some extent, even in the newest LX-10 revision which I'm using now. Thankfully, as some other posters on this thread have reported, the keytop wear doesn't continue until the white totally flakes off. Rather its become a slightly roughened surface like really old weathered ivory, and it doesn't get worse once it hits this stage. The keytop roughening is only in the midrange where traffic is heaviest, the extremes of the keyboard are still pristine.

I hope Roland do sort out the keytop issue in the next generation, otherwise I may have to reconsider my options when I move on. Its a superb piano but the keytops make me grrrrrrr.
thanks bennevis for your detailed input on this matter. It shows how well Roland treats their customers. I don't suspect I will have any issues with mine however if I do, it is important to know Roland will take care of it in the best manner possible. PV88, I wouldn't worry as much as you are as Roland is doing the best they can to help you.

It is interesting to hear about the possibilty that the shiny coating layer that is missing from your replacement was the part that would flake off. Mine for sure and I bet all ivory keybeds on V-Piano's including the Grand that I played had shiny keys. Perhaps that is there to stop the fingers from slipping when they get sweaty? My question ti bennevis would be if his keyboard feels any different when playing without that shiny layer.
As you may have inferred from my previous posts, I actually thought that Roland replaced the original keys with exactly the same, and it was only some months later that I realized that they couldn't have been, because there were no tiny scratches on the surfaces (the first sign of wear that I remembered from the original keys). Then it was time to play Sherlock Holmes (always fancied myself.... grin) and take out my magnifying glass and high-powered LED headlamp (which I use for mountaineering). The textured surface seemed the same as what I remembered from the original keys, but there was no 'patina'/'coating', which gave that slightly off-white, high-class (?) gloss appearance and, presumably, stop slippery fingers from sliding off - not that I ever found that to be a problem on any sort of key surface from cheap smooth plastic to elephant tusk.

The new keys are pure white (under the LED light) - and coupled with the lack of any wear even after a year of so of playing 4 hours a day (apart from the weeks I spent fending off grizzlies and great whites... grin), it was obvious that they didn't have the coating of the originals. I don't even bother to ensure my fingernails are cut very short anymore.

From my point of view, the most important thing is that the key action and the responsiveness of my V-Piano has not changed in the least, whatever the source of the new keys. After all, I bought it to make music with, not to admire its looks or as a piece of vintage furniture (it fails miserably on the last two, IMO.....).

And I'm hitting the keys even harder than before.
Originally Posted by WingNL
I have a slightly different questionr egarding the keys. I know it's a bit of my own fault, but i do not use a cover. I also live in a studio appartment, and i cook alot (foodie :P ).. the unfortunate sideeffect of living in a studio and cooking with oil, is that there's a lot of dust, and sticky dust going around.

My keys are becoming a bit... tainted and slightly sticky (not actualyl sticky, but it feels weird). How do you clean your keys?


I also cook a lot and the kitchen area is just a few feet away from my V-Piano, but I have an old bedsheet draped over it when I cook grin.

You can try a soft cloth damped with warm soapy water, and wipe gently, making sure that it's not wet enough for water to get squeezed out and drip into the keybed. Then wipe again with another damp cloth (no soap) then finally wipe off any moisture with a dry cloth. But whatever you do, don't use alcohol wipes.
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