Following on from a suggestion from another thread, I am starting this new one for V-Piano owners and anyone who has access to a V-Piano. (Sorry, not applicable to anyone else .)

As we know, the Roland V-Piano is the only DP that uses modelling technology which means that its sound is generated from scratch, not sampled from existing pianos. So, the piano sounds you can obtain from it can be customized to your liking, from any of the 24 factory presets. (No synthesizer/organ/Hammond organ/marimba/celeste/onde martenot/harp/harpsichord/clavichord/string sounds are possible).

These are a few of the ones I've customized on my V-Piano, all based on favourite acoustic grand piano sounds. Any suggestions for improvements to them are welcome, as well as your own customizations. And feel free to comment on how close you think I've got to the real thing. (Bear in mind that I listen to my V-Piano only through my AKG K271 MkII headphones).

Parameters:
t=tuning h=hammer cr=cross resonance, sr=string resonance, sb=soundboard resonance, sl=sound lift, tc=tone color (all those not listed here remain at default setting)

Firstly, increase the decay time to +70 and damping time to +30 for all of them, to bring the sustain up to concert grand level.

'Bösendorfer' (from V1 Concert) t-60 h+70 cr+20 sr+20 sb+75 sl 0 tc+2

'Fazioli' (from All Silver 1) t-15 h-10 cr 0 sr+10 sb+10 sl+10 tc+1

'Steinway & Sons' (from All Triple) t-30 h+10 cr+25 sr 0 sb 0 sl+10 tc 0

'Yamaha CF-IIIS' (from V1 Concert) t-10 h+10 cr+20 sr +10 sb+10 sl+20 tc+3

Those are the most convincing ones, whose sounds I know well from playing on the respective concert grands. But here are a few others that are more speculative, in that I've never played on their concert grands personally (though in most cases I've played on their smaller grands and uprights), and am basing them mostly on CD recordings:

'C. Bechstein' (from Triple Power) t-70 h+20 cr+20 sr+20 sb 0 sl+10 tc-2

'Blüthner' (from V2 Concert) t-25 h 0 cr+50 sr+5 sb+10 sl+25 tc 0

'Baldwin' (from All Silver 2) t-15 h 0 cr 0 sr-10 sb+10 sl+10 tc-2

'Mason & Hamlin' (from V1 Session) t-20 h 0 cr 0 sr+10 sb+15 sl+10 tc-2

'Shigeru Kawai' (from Hybrid Silver) t-10 h 0 cr+20 sr+20 sb+20 sl+20 tc 0

'Pleyel' (P280, not Chopin's c 1849!) (from V1 Mellow) t-30 h 0 cr 0 sr 0 sb 0 sl+30 tc+3

'Steingraeber & Söhne' (from Silver Dynamic) t-20 h+5 cr 0 sr+20 sb+20 sl+20 tc+1

'Grotrian-Steinweg' (from Triple Power) t-5 h+10 cr+30 sr+30 sb+40 sl 0 tc 0

More customizations for your enjoyment/annoyance (delete as appropriate) based on the new Evolution upgrades:

'Stuart & Sons' (from V1 Impactance) sl+10 sr+10 sb+10 cr+10 tc+2

'Klavins 370' (from Triple Large) sr+10 sb+10 cr+10 tc+3 (note: decay time and damping time remain at 0 for this as Triple Large already has extended dt & dt)

'Ravenscroft' (from Metallic SB) sl+10 sr+20 sb-10 cr+20 tc-2

and from one of the original presets, a brand new setting that I've enjoyed recently ....'Steingraeber E-272' (from V1 Mellow) sl+20 sr+30 sb+100 cr+30 tc+5

New for 2012: Presenting the Yamaha CFX, which replaces the CF-IIIS as Yamaha's flagship concert grand....
From V1 Concert:
sound lift +25
soft pedal sense 0
string resonance +50
soundboard resonance +60
key off resonance +50
unison tune -50
stretch tune Deep
hammer hardness -30
cross resonance +50
decay time +80
tone color +3
damping time +40
damper noise level 0
tone EQ nil

I always thought the Yamaha CP1 used modeling as well ... ?

and the Promega from GeneralMusic ... ?

I think any the only thing that marginally passes as "modeling" for the AP voices in either is their sympathetic resonance algorithms. GEM lists a bunch of stuff under the modeling section of their manual, and Yamaha SCM gives some control over hammer stiffness, but at their core they seem to be plain old looped and stretched piano samples, not models.

Interesting that you use Vintage 1 to make your Bosendorfer...Roland specifically claim that Vintage 2 is supposed to be a Bosendorfer...I really couldn't stand V2 - a very unrealistic noise in my view.

Good luck with this thread...it would be interesting to know just how many V-Pianos are out there...not many I should think. If money were no object I'd buy another just to test your settings! There are elements of the thing that I miss...the dymanics of it mainly.

Cheers,

Steve

Does anyone think (or hope) that v2.0 will be able to model electric pianos as well?

Add that functionality, make it a tad smaller, and cheaper, and I'll be on-board. Is that asking too much?

No, entirely reasonable. I know there are people within Roland UK who would very much like to see the V-Piano feature some decent EP sounds.

thanks for this topic!

Maybe some audio uploads from different presets would be nice, for us non-V Piano-owners!

I shall contribute some settings soon .

Have my hands full stripping an acoustic upright at the moment. Gave myself a christmas break and a christmas project.

Thank you sincerely for initiating Bennevis.

How many piano sound can you get? That all sound the same? Plenty!

That's one of the limitations of the V-Piano.

Funny, never took notice of V2, probably because it is unappealing to me; but I tried a few adj and it sounds much better. Am wondering if the Evolution upgrade has helped improve some of these models. I just use #28 for practice. Also, some have used the software modeling approach with a laptop to fine tune the simulations with some claimed sucess.

A reviewer on performingmusician.com claims to have made progress by introducing imperfections:

"So, did it sound as if I were playing a real grand piano through any of these? Well, not at first. Nor did my fingers feel as if they were playing a real grand piano; they still felt as if they were playing a very high-quality electronic instrument.

"To investigate this, I played the middle ‘C’ on my Broadwood and on the V-Piano. I then repeated the exercise right across the keyboards of both instruments. In every register, the Roland lacked all sorts of ‘stuff’, and I realised that Roland’s factory settings were a little too conservative for my taste. To overcome this, I first tried to identify the resonant frequencies that give my piano its individual character. The V-Piano’s main EQ section offers four bands that can be configured as four peaking EQs or as two peaking EQs flanked by a low and a high shelf and, after some experimentation, I found that a moderate bass boost around 200Hz and a couple of peaks at 1600Hz and 2kHz made all the difference to the timbre. The body was there, and the mid-range now sounded nicer, but the top end was less realistic than it had been before I had started. Wouldn’t it be excellent, I thought, if there were a way to stop the top end from becoming overly bright while retaining the peaky EQ across the whole of the range? Well, there is or I wouldn’t have mentioned it. The tone EQ allows you to insert a single equaliser into each of four user-defined zones, so I selected the notes from C6 upward and rolled off the high end with a broad Q filter. Much better.

"I next turned my attention to the envelope of the sound. Pressing the same key on my Broadwood and on the V-Piano showed that the sound of the Roland decayed far more quickly than the sound of the acoustic piano, so I found the Decay Time parameter and extended this almost to its maximum. Then I extended the Damping Time so that notes cut off a little less abruptly when I released the damper pedal.

"Now the illusion was becoming convincing, but perhaps the greatest breakthrough occurred when I started to mess around with the parameters of individual notes. My Broadwood is tuned professionally, but there are still notes that are slightly more detuned than others and some that cause strong resonances in the mechanism and case. I decided to replicate some of these anomalies on the V-Piano, using the editor to draw a bit more detune here, some more resonance here, and a clattering, harder hammer over there. The results were remarkable — the imperfections caused the whole thing to come alive, as no other digital piano has done before."

link

Interesting stuff. I tweaked around with mine but probably not to this extent. Whatever I did it essentially sounded like the same piano, across all presets and variations thereof. And the problem was I didn't like it very much in the midrange where there was always this synthesised artificial noise behind the note. Once it got into my head it's all I could hear and I deeply regret to say I ended up hating the thing.

I quite like the article linked-to above...not just because the reviewer found ways to adjust things to his liking, but that he has a grip of what makes all the other DPs inferior in a pure engineering sense, ie, he understands the limitations of sample based systems. And lastly, the mighty RD-1000 (which I also own - and love) is mentioned in appropriately reverential terms.

It's a shame there are not more V-Piano owners to share settings on this thread - it could have become quite a vibrant exchange of ideas like the Kawai CA93 thread.

Cheers,

Steve

The V-Piano is out of my budget range, but I'm hoping that modelling can be developed into the future of DP's included sounds. The "imperfections" approach is appealing.

Quite interesting!

Here are some samples for the MKS-20, the rackmount version:

http://www.synthmania.com/mks-20.htm

I must say that the pianos sound pretty poor. Is this a faithful representation of the sound in the RD-1000?

I do very much like keyboards and modules that are highly programmable and rely purely on synthesis and not samples, as the variability then is limited only by the architecture and one's imagination. There's no technical reason a sampled instrument couldn't have similar variability, but only Nord trusts us to freely upload and manage the sample sets in our DPs.


Perhaps it's just as well, I'm not sure the PW server could handle the overload of smilies that this thread might generate.

The instrument is like "The Emperor's New Clothes"; When you own a Stein or a CFIII,you really humble yourself as you play. It seems that the V core model is the same across all the default sounds and only superficial changes can be made. Of course any sound can be modeled by the V. Look for Rhoads or Hammond patches in the future as the product evolves. I find that the "vertical" choice is the closest match to my C6. It is one that can play a midrange accurately and has the least "artificial noise"; however it is muffled and has to be tweaked. Use the equilizer to add some treble and it's "ok". For my money it is a solid unit, the only one that doesn't shake when played hard, and has low fatigue.

Yes and no. Piano 1 can sound better than that but...how do I put this?...The old RD is an instrument in the truest sense...it is the dynamics of the thing that you have to experience to believe. Elton John - most of us know him - in his entire touring career played exclusively Steinway from his breakthrough in 1970 until his sabbatical due to throat problems at the end of 1986. He is the best player I have ever seen...I make no comment about his songwriting, singing, celebrity, personality, private life or the f*cking Lion King...but he is the best player I have seen. He switched to the RD-1000 until it went out of production in 1993. Since that time he has used a Yamaha CF-IIIS carcass but his sound is still RD-1000...this is the principle tonality in his sound and is what provides the dynamic contrasts with further reinforcement from Yamaha Motif Power Grand I believe. You'd have to ask why he used/uses this thing but anyone who has ever played one knows the answer. Watched Status Quo for a few minutes last night from Montreux in 2009...their old 1000 still going strong.

My theory is this - the original Roland SAS was sufficiently different to a real piano to be something in its own right - like the Yamaha Electric Grand or Rhodes - but it behaves like a real piano, it can articulate the player's touch so faithfully and allows the player to use light and dark and everything in between...still the best after all these years. But if it's sonic fidelity to a real piano you are looking for it would disappoint. Anyway this is all off topic but I can never resist an opportunity to wax lyrical about the RD-1000!

Cheers,

Steve

According to a member of the EltonJohn.com forum (user "maxb162"), the acoustic portion of Elton's Yamaha is still used, in two ways:

1. It always "shapes" the sound, however he doesn't say how. I.e, even when the acoustic sound is not used, it is still used in some way to shape the sound from the electronic piano sounds. (MKS20 & Motif).

2. They gradually mix in more of the acoustic SOUND, as the concert progresses. I.e, they fine tune it on the fly.

If you search for keywords maxb162 & mks20 on site forums.prospero.com it should give you the relevant posts.
(here's a Search Link )

I don't like Elton's modern piano sound much at all. It sounds sort of electronic and cheesy to me. I prefer his older Steinway sound. One song (which uses ONLY the RD1000 or MKS20, I suspect) that I do like a lot though is "I don't wanna go on with you like that" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUU1vGuaurc

I had a cut down RD1000 (the old RD300SX - not the current one). It had a very smooth change of timbre with velocity, but it's sound was lacking. For example, I preferred the cross-fade Rhodes in the Kurzweil PX1000 module. This just used TWO layers, but the result was good. The non cross-faded versions were very nice too.

Greg.

(the fidelity of that song in iTunes is MUCH better. There's a section in the song where the piano is very prominent. My RD300SX never sounded that good, no matter how much EQ I used!)

GReg.

I've grown a bit tired of EJ's piano sound...it is ALWAYS the same and I am sceptical about claims that the acoustic piano is used at all. I would rather hear a real piano, knowing that sometimes it would work out better than other times. I also fully agree about I Don't Wanna Go On With You Like That...pure RD-1000 and a good example of how to use the RD's sound. As I say, the main attraction is the way is plays, not the way it sounds (although I like it) - I'd rather hear a Steinway (or whatever).

Steve

Steve, as always I find your insights and comments to be quite fascinating!

Yep. Me too! (Respect)

Ha! Well all those around me for some reason fail to find my insights so fascinating. Their usual retort is "stop going about these pianos" or "are you still obsessed with those organ things?" or even "get a life".

I keep telling them they'll miss me when I'm gone!

Cheers,

Steve

Hey people, new to the forum, just received my v-piano. The thing doesn't stop amazing me fair play!
I have used some of your settings bennevis, they sound great! A lot more true to the actual pianos. Although I must confess I manually randomised the tuning/hardness/resonance of some keys to warm them up a little! Very impressed with the bechstein, my grandmother has one and it sounds very close to it!
I have replicated my challen upright and it sound almost exactly the same, it's quite funny really how close I got it, bit out of tune and a tad resonant. If anyone would like the settings and some pictures of individual tuning, let me know.

Keep them coming or let me know of any improvements!
James

I can't agree with those who said that all the V-Piano's sounds are the same - even comparing Vintage Piano 1 to V1 Concert say, there are similarities, but no matter how much you tweak them, you can't get them to sound like each other, which means that they already had inherent differences which justify their separate presets. I do agree that the V2 presets don't sound convincing until you tweak them (their mellowness are more akin to Blüthner than Bösendorfer, I have to say) but apparently Roland thinks V2 is good for late night jazz (which is of course way above my head, as I don't do late nights nor jazz....).

I haven't tried the equalization stuff, mainly because I'm not quite sure how to do it, but maybe those who can may be able to tweak the sounds to match the acoustic grands better than I can.

Unlike others, I like the fact that there are no EP/synthesizer sounds on the V-Piano: it's really meant for those who want a piano substitute, not something glitzy with lots of multicolored flashing lights and weird sounds. There're plenty of DPs that have those.

Yes, I think the presets are physically different, I.e weighted hammers, closer soundboard for the upright, glass sound board rather than just alterations. The only thing I miss, is being able to turn the hammer hardness that hard that it sounds like a tac piano. Now theres a suggestion!

I'd like to hear your settings, including that of your Challen upright (not heard of that make before) - why don't you post them here?

Didn't Ray Charles use a Challen Grand? British make and distinctively warm sounding.

When I have said all the V-Pianos sound the same, what I mean is that if you mentally strip out all the adjustable parameters, the DNA of the thing, the most basic tonal signature of each note across all presets is the same...I'm not talking about hammer hardness, resonance, tuning or anything, just the basic underlying tone. I offered this criticism to the UK Roland product specialist he agreed and said in creating the V-Piano they needed a sound and that sound, the building block or the DNA as I call it, is the same across all V-Piano voices.

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Steve

Hmm, I still don't agree about that. Even single notes sound completely different with different factory presets, as well as those I've customized myself.

For example, in my Bosie setting, the bass notes have a completely different character to that of the Steinway - as deep and resonant, but in a different way (and to my ears that mirrors their respective acoustic concert grands). Maybe if you have access to your dealer's V-Piano (assuming he's not too annoyed with you for exchanging your DP...) try out those settings and hear for yourself. My settings magnify the differences between the orginal presets as well as making them sound more life-like (I hope).

I agree to a point. For gigging musicians, they probably need the extra voices, bells & whistles, and are better served using an RD-xxx/CP-yyy/MP-z type of stage piano.

I have a home studio, and my stuff doesn't leave the house. I also have a synth for those sounds and action. I've got an RD-700SX, which does fine for my needs now, but I'm considering upgrading depending on what's due out in the future.

My wish list for a V-Piano, version 2.0, would include EPs in there, as the weighted action is appropriate for those...they can leave out the GM set and extra tones, controller functions. Rhythm accompaniment might be nice, but not necessary. Lighter and cheaper would be nice, if unlikely.

You can sort of see a potential convergence of technologies...which might manifest itself in an RD-800/900 or V-Piano Lite in a year or two. Modeling meets SuperNatural?

The importance of attempting to get these things to sound like a Bose or a Stein or any piano is IMHO secondary to the basic goal of DP builders; and that is to get the most pleasing sound to the most people. After all, we are listening to paper not strings. The engineers built in a second set of outputs and spent time to get some sound re-enforcement hence more closely simulating a wood piano. Now, the sound comes from paper is never going to beat-out a soundboard and strings, we are left with pushing buttons, turning knobs and fiddling with speakers. When you think about it, a good sample from a concert grand should be the real deal because it is. But the model concept has flexibility where samples don't.

+1 for Pianoteq-style modelled EPs in the next V-Piano.

Cheers,
James
x

I will upload a few of my settings later, bennevis, do you apply eq to any of your patches? I find that with my speaker system (yamaha stagepas500) I have to give it a little boost around the 200hz at it sounds dry there, also a 4db boost around the 1600hz mark with a Q of 1.0. This brings the sound out a lot more and makes it cut through when I'm say playing with jazz backing tracks. I also shelve off the very highest hz which softens the sound of the resonant strings around the centre but that's probably because I'm not used to playing on concert tuned steinways and more basing my sound off jazz recordings.

I have made a great custom all round jazz/pop grand which I will upload the settings for, named the jazz club grand

Looking forward to it!

I've not tried to apply any equalizations - my knowledge of electronic and IT stuff is actually next to non-existent and I thought you needed to connect a special console with lots of sliding levers to the back of the V-Piano in order to do it properly , which is somewhat above my feeble mind....

But I will certainly try out your jazz grand setting, though probably minus the equalizations, unless I've worked out how to use them in the meantime.

V-Piano has onboard digital sweepable EQ - very easy to use if I remember correctly.

Steve

One of the most useful tools is the EQ. Just push the EQ button and everything is adjustable. You can't make a mistake; at least if you don't press write..

Thanks, I'll give it a try. After all, it's Christmas.....

Yes, treat yourself!

Jazz club grand

From the top of the tone menu

Original : triple power
SL 0
SP 0
SR + 20
DR + 16
SBR + 25
KOR +5
UT + 11
ST standard
HH -5
CR -35
DT 0
TC 0
DT +10

Now fine tune the tuning, lots of random scattered notes in + tuning, not to far as to drastically change the tuning

Hammer hardeness slightly softer down bottom end with scattered random hardness throughout

Resonance slightly dipped away from the c3-c5 area. Press rangeset, hold c3,4 and 5 then bring the value down a about -10, do the same but to the very bottom end. Then finally scatter a few + and - resonant notes around the entire keyboard

Let me know what you think, this sounds great playing along to my aebersold backing tracks

Thanks a lot! Will try it out as soon as I get a possibility:-)

Thanks, will try it out when I get home and let you know after Christmas (I won't have any access to a computer till 29th ).

Hello all,

I finally made time (need more time though) to play with some of these contributed voicings and provide feedback.
I want to be more detailed, however other commitments await.

Firstly my testing environment. Finished stripping the upright and have placed my V in place of the original desk. The dimensions of the V and original desk provide a perfect match. I decided after much research to use four near field studio monitors and bought four Adam A7's. My intention is to emulate the sound produced at the position where the hammer strikes the string. The cavity of the upright and the timber of the case can do what it must naturally do to resonate/vibrate sound. So I wanted the most detailed sound speaker for this without spending 5 - 10K per speaker. The Adams are proving successful after little testing. I even have a beautiful vibration through the v cabinet which I feel through the keys. The ambient (B channel) speakers at the moment sit on the timber floorboards from which I feel vibration through my feet. So far, so good. I would like to point out I have played with the settings of the Vertical piano and I have something which is convincing that the piano is creating the sound. Extremely impressed. Brilliant work Roland! The volume of the vertical is quieter representing a smaller scale piano - an upright compared to a concert grand.

Anyway, Just put in JackRabbits Jazz club and it is very good. More experiment necessary and randomizing of hammers etc.

Hi Bennevis , also put in your list of known pianos from playing experience. Yes you have managed to capture the known qualities of the respective pianos. You obviously have good hearing, I like how the Yamaha has the added brightness and I really like the Bosie especially the bass, and have started experimenting with subtle changes. I will continue playimg with them to fine tune for my taste although unnecessary. Keep in mind I am still tuning my speaker system.

I will also mention that my approach for testing the piano sounds and the general sound of my piano setup is to firstly listen from outside the room and also from other rooms. (I am trying to obtain the correct volume of the piano) I know when the sound is working when my mind absolutely believes there is a quality piano being played from the nearby room (door open). So I will play some midi files and it really is convincing at times especially during f ff fff passages when this imagined soundboard is singing loudly . Again brilliant work Roland and Adam.


Anyway more testing and revising some of my sounds so I can post. There is a difference - headphones compared to speakers obviously.

vpianoman

Somewhere packed away I have a book for the Hammond Organ - page after page after page of drawbar settings.

Why did that pop into my mind from this thread?

I would appreciate any photos of your setup, sounds very interesting.

"Somewhere packed away I have a book for the Hammond Organ - page after page after page of drawbar settings. " - Dave Horne.

I hear you Dave.
My intention is to experiment with the possibility of sound(s). And arrive at a point with 2 or 3 pianos that I continually use. I think I actually have reached that point. In fact 1 piano is just right .... well, probably. I will post the settings for others. I would love to have your Yamaha N. When I bought the V almost 12 months ago, I was resuming playing and practice after a number of years. I did not see either 'N' and the V appealed, highly. I never expected to have the curiousity to expand the sound externally. And to strip an upright. An enjoyable experience however.

And so .. is it time to find the Hammond reference and dispose? If you throw your book away I promise to stop playing with settings. You first.

Re: kiedysktos. I shall see what I can arrange.

Thanks for that - it's nice to know that others like my settings, and find them reasonably accurate. For me, it's like having several well-known brands of concert grands in my tiny apartment, which I can play on anytime of day or night (and often do...) without worrying about neighbors.

Did you try the 4-speaker system and placement that Roland advocates in its manual? According to reviewers who tried it, it gives the real impression of the sound of a concert grand sitting at the keyboard.

"Did you try the 4-speaker system and placement that Roland advocates in its manual? According to reviewers who tried it, it gives the real impression of the sound of a concert grand sitting at the keyboard." - Bennevis.

I have the setup modeling an upright soundboard. Channel A at top at hammer strike point (player position) and channel B speakers where the bottom end of the soundboard would be (at my feet on the floor).

I would like to have the setup emulating a grand (horizontal) soundboard - I think it would be better as the sound would be directed in a different way (up and around not straight out from a wall). Regardless it is brilliant.

Interestingly, regarding the proportions of different pianos sound - as you are aware the default pianos of the V are of different sizes. The sound produced through the speaker system is consistent with this. It is remarkable (hence I am remarking) what Roland have achieved in this aspect. Accordingly as my room containing the V is approx 10 * 15 feet the sound of the concert grand pianos are just too big. Truly i have to increase volume to hear the correct p's and f's and the right sound of the piano character. If I use your Bosie setting for instance and I leave the room , the sound produced sounds like a concert grand housed in a small room. My mind absolutely believes that the entire room is a complete sound source. It is magnificent but just too big.

So I have experimented and the right sound for the room for my liking is based upon the V2 clear tone increase primarily to +2 with velocity 100 and some resonance and hammer changes. Sorry still have to get to the V to copy/write the settings. The piano sounds correct for the room.

IF there is a ROLAND rep/exec/tech/engineer and/or an ADAM audio rep/exec/tech/engineer viewing this thread PLEASE contact bennevis and offer him the use of 4 ADAM A7's or better (also include a subwoofer - why Not?).

Bennevis I have again tested you known piano voicings/settings and WOW! You really have managed to achieve something special. Thank you for honest listening and reproduction.

I suppose I have my Adams working better now. I know having the Channel B speakers in the correct position and angle has helped tremendously. You must be hearing something different and better through your AKG240's(?) than my AKG701's (when I use them). (Oh AKG please contact me and I will have what Bennevis is having.)

Anyway - I was a little non committal about the Steinway but now - great job. I love it. And the Yamaha - for instance a pop piece such as 'Yesterday' - beautiful.

And the Bosendorfer. Ladies and gentlemen stand back please.

I am now hearing a much smoother middle sweet spot of the piano. Previously there were the notes around the middle which were too metally sounding to my ears. Let me say that I remember years ago when I was programming some synth patches for a studio I read an article where an audio engineer described the envelope of a note. Specifically regarding the attack - he said the piano note attack and an organ note attack were very close to being the same. So this metally sound I speak of would be something like the attack of a note played on an organ .

Anyway that is being rectified now.

Truly Bennevis you need to somehow try a speaker setup even if you hire for 1 night. But hopefully Roland and Adam will be contacting you shortly.

Thanks again for your compliments. I'd certainly love to try the quadrophonic speaker set-up on my V-Piano, but there's no room in my lounge, which is cluttered with music scores, books, CDs, mountaineering gear, running shoes....and I suspect my neighbours will start banging on my walls and floor if I so much as play it at normal volume. I'm still dreaming of moving to a mansion where I can play without my AKG K271 Mk II completely undisturbed and without annoying anybody. Certainly the AKGs are by far the best headphones I've ever used (and they were given free with my V-Piano purchase!), but I haven't really compared them to other AKGs.

Really getting to grips with the v-piano and loving it even more. I find myself playing different piano models depending on what mood I'm in, one of my best being a modified triple large piano for my jazz solo pieces. It sounds so good!

I wonder if we can expect an uprgrade when the v-piano grand comes along, I take it they will use the same firmware. Mate a few new models/features?

I was reading a forum post about people not liking the sound?! I think it's a similar situation to video games, they are getting that close to the real thing, that if something is just ever so slightly different, we notice it from reality. We were happy 10 years ago playing piano samples that today sound really fake, so rather than thinking what great progress technology has created, we are quick to criticise!

the uncanny valley applies to audio as well you think? That's definitely an interesting idea...

That's exactly what im trying to say, I had to read up on uncanny valley as I was unaware of it but it sums it up perfectly. The sound is getting that close that we get negative emotions from it because it actually isn't the real thing.

Not that I get any negative emotions

I've modified my original post, to increase the sustain time for all the settings to acoustic concert grand levels (see my other new post about this).

Thanks for the settings Bennevis! I am demoing the V-Piano today and I will try setting the piano up using some of your settings. I will make sure to leave the settings with the dealer since they don't have a clue on how to tweak it.

I will home in on the Blüthner settings since I just played a model 2 this last weekend and fell in love with it. What a beautiful piano! If only I had 75k... It is six years old and at that perfect stage of being played enough to be all warmed up. The owner of the store is a piano tech and it is his pet piano. He has it dialed in perfectly.

I just talked with the Roland US rep and they are still in the process of tweaking the software for the V-Piano Grand. He mentioned that they have been working with the cabinet and speakers, and the interaction of both to the software. They learned a lot from user feedback at the NAMM show and that their comments really helped them to fine-tune the sounds. I really am looking forward to hearing and playing one. Just imagine being able to play a "real grand" with its beautiful tones and then to be able to practice the same instrument at 2:00am and no one can hear you... Priceless!

I've been informed by my local dealer that they'll be setting up the V-Grand in their showroom in April - hopefully all updated tweaks will be installed by then. I'm looking forward to trying it out - not that I'm thinking of 'upgrading' to it, as there's no room in my apartment (the V-Piano has already taken up all remaining floor space....) but just to see how it sounds via its speakers compared to my V-Piano via headphones. And I'm going to be customizing my settings on it for their benefit - whether they want them or not...

I did fall in love with the Blüthners at the showroom - in particular a reconditioned one from circa 1920, with its olde worlde, mellow yet powerful sound. But my heart has long since been taken by the Bösendorfer Imperial (and I'm the faithful sort ), so Blüthner will have to come second...

Interesting thread. Coming in late.

Note that Adam A7 was mentioned. Originally we picked up the Yamaha HS80M. It was inadequate. I think the 8" drivers are just too large for a tight mid. So went back and the sound engineer highly recommended the Adam A7. Comparing the Adam A7 and the Yamaha HS80, it was clear that the Adam was better.

However, on a whim, I asked that we also test the Yamaha HS50M and the HS10W sub. The sound engineer was convinced that it would not be close. However, we both agreed that the HS50M and HS10W sub was much more natural and full range than the Adam A7. The bass with the sub is obviously also much better. We picked up the Yamaha set up new for $617 shipped with judicious shopping and are very happy with it. now we have to figure out whether to add the 3rd and 4th channel - does it make a lot of difference?

Thanks,
F

Is there a finer piano than the Bosendorfer Imperial? That's the pinnacle of pianos IMHO. My top 3 grands:

1. Bosendorfer Imperial
2. Steinway D
3. Shigeru-Kawai EX Concert

Sorry to jack the thread! On topic, while I don't own a V-Piano, the V-Grand looks fantastic. Has anyone seen an actual street price for the V-Grand yet?

We're just at the front end of learning about the V Piano. It would sure be nice if consumer can 'create' a particular piano, save it as a file, and then post it on line. Others can download it to a USB mem stick and then just download to the Vpiano. That would be fantastic to quickly share a limitless number of piano models.

F

Faulhorn: Some of the users at Roland Clan are using the 4.1 of the V and say that it does sound better. One user is using the V inside of a vertical cabinet with the 1/2 speakers at ear level and 3/4 speakers on the floor of the cabinet to give ambiance, depth and feel to the setup. See the posts over there for more info. For a lot of info go to: http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29146

You can save the setup to a file then post it for others to restore. As long as you save your setups you are good! The way Bennevis has posted his settings should take just seconds to dial in on your V for trial. What do I know... I haven't even touched a V yet. I plan on demoing one this weekend.

Hi All,

And Hi Bennevis,

I am glad you made adjustments to increase the decay to levels of 70. I had actually made subtle changes to your pianos by increasing this level in the region of 50 - 75.
I also have increased the damper release(? ) to 10 - 15. This setting is interesting because it can actually fill gaps in incomplete legato cadences etc. It can probably introduce some flaws in technique also. The point is I'm not sure how it compares with an acoustic so it might be an acceptable level.

The piano I use predominately is the Yamaha. I use two - your setting from this thread and one where I have increased resonance. The sound is just right to my ear for my practice/study Mozart/Chopin.

I have been just looking for V Grand videos and have found a link and two interesting v piano video links.

This link http://www.theenid.co.uk/listen.html (and play first video @NEARfest2010)has the v integrated into a rock orchestra.
I found this site after finding this new Roland video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w_cUQOV-xM

This gives credibility in my opinion. Anyone who plays Chopin opus 10/4 and can speak grammatically correct English has my attention.
Although unfortunately there is distortion in clip.

Kind regards
V Piano Man

My contribution...
Doesn't sound like one i know.. but I like to play this setting with soft/gentle 'fantasy' parts (like final fantasy songs ^_^ )

Based on Sylver Dynamic
sl=0, sr=0, damper=+20, sb=+10, t=+10, h=0, cr=+5, tc=-1, stretch tune=gentle.

(standard: decay time to +70 and damping time to +30 applies).

It's not tested on headphones yet... looking forward to hear some comments

Thanks, I'll try it out when I get home.

Incidentally, I've experimented with my customizations by transferring one or two of them onto a related factory preset - so for instance, my settings for Bösendorfer could be transferred to Vintage Piano 1, which gives a stronger bass overall and slightly altered tonal character compared to V1 Concert.

Coo, curious what you think. I personally think that favorism of some pianos or execution of the paramaters depends a bit on the setup as well. I like the bossendorfer sound you made. I am curious how it sounds on the other preset. I never heard much of the actual grands (or at least, knowing when it was being played).

My background as a classical pianist without his own instrument to play on (until I bought my V-Piano) has given me a somewhat different perspective on pianos than most other posters here: I must have played on close to a thousand different acoustics in my time over the years since I left university (and its practice rooms with Yamaha uprights). Some good, some bad, most indifferent. The really memorable ones were usually well-prepped concert grands in showrooms and concert halls. And I learnt to be able to adapt to just about anything, short of gaping holes where the keys should have been...

Some piano sounds (and the way the pianos 'feel' under the fingers, the marriage of action and sound as it were) stay in my memory, and those are the ones I aim to reproduce on my V-Piano as closely as possible. But I also included some 'way-out' piano sounds that I've experienced over the years, either in person (i.e. playing the pianos in question) or on recordings. So, if some people think that one or two of the sounds I've included couldn't possibly have existed in real life......

haha gapping holes.. they can be overcome ^_^... can imagine how that would be . I sometimes play on uprights who are far worse than old cranky honkeytonks from the western movies / three amigos ai ai ai!

In general, it doesn't really matter if they exist or not...as long as they feel good, play well, and sound good.

I adjusted your Yamaha preset. I prefer instead of a minus tuning, putting it on +11, makes it comes to live. I never played a Yamaha grand before ( i think, i only played some random which I couldn't remember, except a steinway!, (not sure which one) ). HYowever.. i felt the hammers were too harsh.. i put it down to minus 10. Maybe because i like heavier keys (or aybe it means i need to hammer less on the keys )

Anyways.. to me, the yamaha feel (i know the sound a bit) comes more in. Would love to know how you feel with that adjustment? maybe it ruins the Yamaha sound you know.

And still curious what you think of my V-Fantasy sound ^_^.

Not had the chance to try out your settings yet (work commitments etc), but will do so this weekend. I must say I don't actually like Yamaha (acoustic) piano sounds much and my customization reflects the somewhat strident sound I perceive in Yamaha pianos (and therefore their DPs), but maybe your setting will improve on mine.

Curious since it's weekend, wanna see how youdo withyour preset progress;-)

I was watching Fringe last night (yes, im a bit of a neuro-science/scifi geek ) and there were two people playing.. one on an old grand.. which i didn't really like the sound of, but there was a tiny home piano there too.. it sounded.. common, woody, but very lovely. I tried to recreate it with the Vertical preset. I only really miss the "wood" sound in the V-piano... unfortunately. However.. here is my next setting =)


I call it the "Common Vertical".. its not well tuned, sounds are definately not perfect.. it feels actually hard to play versus grand pianos... the feel and sound make a completely different match (very nice psychological effect here going on ^_^)

So..setting for the "Common Vertical"
Sound Lift: 15
String resonancen: -30
Damper: -38
Soundboard: 30
Unison tune: 25
Hammer hardness: 20
Cross resonance: 30
Tono color: 1
Damping time: 30
Stretch Tune: gentle


BTW..would be fun to make a rolandE76 sound (keyboard)
The thing you need to do is put everything just on worst quality, and put the hammer on the C2 note to full.. :P

Been trying out your V-Fantasy and Yamaha settings. I've put the latter into my V-Piano as 'Yamaha CFX' now, because I like it better than my own Yamaha (just as the real CFX is an improvement on the CF-IIIS) . The Fantasy setting is fun to improvise to.

cheers .

The fantasy is quite cool.. i play it more and more nowaays.. seems very useful. Feels a bt odd at some points, but when loudly played, it add some -twang- (is there any word like that in piano playing?)

Apparently, the other member put on the v-piano forum closed it down again..
I might give it a try later on, when there are more updates/settings. See if i can make them downloadable too..havent been checking the v-piano export settings yet.

As a matter of interest, does your V-Piano come with the additional factory presets that are already included on the V-Grand, or if not, have you downloaded them from Roland? I think there are 6 new ones. I'm just wondering whether they're worth the bother (I don't know how to download stuff from websites, and I don't have a computer...).

the V-piano evolution upgrade was already on it.. not sure if that's the one you meant. I loved the extra evolution piano's. If the grand got some as well, it might be interesting..

cecked on the dutch/EU website:

V-piano grand: Tones : preset 30 tones + user 100 tones

I think i only have 28 presets on my own... not entirely sure... could be 30 too.. ill check it out later

Yes, it's the 'evolution' I was referring to. Looks like you have the upgraded V-Piano - I bought mine some months before the upgrades came out. I did try them out on my dealer's V-Piano, but didn't find them interesting enough at the time to want to go through the hassle of trying to get someone to insert (is that the right word? ) them into my V-Piano. I think that the V-Grand has the same upgrades but no extra ones.

ok, I must say..it's worth to upgrade to be honest. It's not just a preset, there are just different pianos.

The adjustments on the pianos are not able to do with the standard parameters, that's why.

It's not hard to be honest.. just get yourself an usb stick, and download something off the website (there are instructions you know ^_^). Aside.. you registered on this forum too :-) so you must be able to do something with it?

Bennevis, you are a breath of fresh air. A completely unabashed tech agnostic who nevertheless has provided more value to v-piano users than all the gearheads at Roland.

My sentiments completely on the uselessness of the Evolution "upgrade". and kudos to Roland for leaving it completely up to the users to come together and work out ways to make the v-piano more usable and realistic. But i know i'm being unreasonable.

I will say this. i've gone from hating it and wanting it gone to opening myself back up to its potential again. This forum has helped me with that. the power of suggestion, knowing that others who are better trained appreciate something more than you have... i've begun to get more aggressive with my own "tweaks" and am liking it more. For me, it needs much softer hammers for the way i play. So that is what i've done and i'm happier with the results.

At least that is what i'm thinking this month!

@bfb,
why do you think the evolution upgrade is useless? it simply just offers a set of other models which you cannot create with the current settings as far as I know. (like cabinet size and stuff like that).

There are some really good new models in, like the Vertical, and the triple large (which also loads in the triple mellow if I recall correct) are very playable pianos.

I would suggest it to check them out some time. I personally believe it's worth it. (and the ugprade is free, so it's not bad)

Hi WingNL...

i did download the upgrade when it first came out, and yeah, useless may be harsh, but to me it didn't add a lot of value. and my point is- Bennevis telling me to increase the decay and damper time was infinitely more useful than Roland telling me to play this new make-believe Evolution piano that is made out of a metal and wood sandwich.

have you figured out how to use Vintage 2? its supposed to be a Bos- but all i hear is someone playing a Bos underwater.

its taken me 18 months to figure out the v-piano's Vintage 1 piano is the one to target. i like the base model- particularly with the decay increased and the hammers softened. and i also like the V1 Mellow. I enjoy playing the Silver Dynamic but it doesn't record well, and i do like the Silver Extreme at various tunings as a boogie woogie/stomp type piano.

I just listened to the new 6'3" Yamaha sample for the Nord piano. even if i am making peace with my V i think i'm going to have to buy the NP88 because i just love the way the pianos sound.

Cheers for your explenation ^_^, You got me thinking ;-)
Indeed, the damper time / decay was very usefull. Make the piano came more alive.

I do feel that speakers/headphones & playing style are very much making a difference too. Where Bennevis made some choices in hammer/etc, I put them harder, or vice versa.
I do too love the softer hammer settings..make them less...stingy to my ears :-)

I do agree that most of the presets need some work done before they get playable. The silver Hybrd is quite nice (at least, what I made with it...).

Vintage 2 and 1.. well..i guess depends what you play? I prefer the V2 concert because it sounds more mellow, but more brighter than the v1 mellow. for mellow, i prefer the 'triple mellow'

Anyways.. Maybe i should go give the NP88 another chance. See so many people being totally happy about it.. but when I tried it out, I was REALLY dissapointed. The sounds were if they were canned, resonating, a kinda like flanger over them..and them keys were horrible (but that's okay, they are light, for on stage)

Thanks, I might try that (once I find out what a 'USB stick' is ) - my only worry is that I'll mess up my work computer by downloading stuff. But so far I'm OK with posting stuff on this forum.....

bfb, thanks for your compliments - , and using the word 'agnostic' (others would call me a 'Luddite' ).

@bennevis,

I have already printed out your custom presets page and will be very interested in trying all of them out, after I get the V-piano.

Did you fashion these just from your own mind's "ear" as you remembered hearing and playing these pianos?

Yes, in general I just tried to get the sounds closest to what I remember from playing on the respective concert grands, though it was all based on memory as obviously I wasn't able to have a side-by-side comparison. However, I didn't get the chance to play the concert grands of some of the brands that I've included, like Pleyel - which I've only played on an old restored 1843 model from Chopin's day, so I based that on a CD recording of a modern Pleyel. I've never played on a Mason & Hamlin or Steingraeber grand either, so they too were based on CD recordings.

I also tried to use different factory presets rather than basing them all on the few that gave the most 'acoustic piano-like' sounds, otherwise I'd probably have ended up using the Vintage Piano 1 and V1 presets for almost all of them, and not using any of the Vanguard presets. So, the tonal characteristics of a few of my customizations might be a tad exaggerated.... .

Hello all V-Piano owners.

Is it only me that is considering the V-Piano and is really interested to get a taste of the sound from you guy's presets.
Just to get an idea on how much its possible to tweak the sound?

I'm really curious .


// Philip

PhilipK,

You can tweak the V-Piano to the point of insanity, trust me...you can create your own Yamadorfer!

i hope to over the next week or two record various pianos "models" i've concocted on the VP and upload them somewhere for people to listen to and help me figure out if they sound usable. i don't trust my own ears regarding what i'm cooking up in the v's soup kitchen.

I've been spending a lot of time- basically in an effort not to give up on the vp because i'm not satisfied with its base line pianos - trying to figure out how to change the character of its sound, which to me is too metallic and brittle. from what i can tell- the most promising "discovery" is a function called "tone color" in its settings that can be adjusted up (brighter/ "thinner strings (per Roland's lexicon)" or down (mellower/darker/ "thicker strings"). I have noticed it really makes a big difference in the voice's character and presence and sweetness. its probably just a filter or another back door to EQ'ing, but it has some real promise. anyway, that plus detuning plus hammer voicing plus resonance tweaks plus decay time plus damper release time plus etc. etc ad nauseum will either create something believable or some kind of freak piano Frankenstein.

anyway, i sure would enourage others to make some recordings with their V's and post them somewhere. you can google/youtube all the other DP's and hear some really good stuff, but the only thing you find on the VP are Roland's promotional videos or some music retailer trying to sell you one. which makes me wonder if this is about to become the DeLorean of DP's...?

bfb.

Yes, the only videos out there is more or less from Roland our music stores.
The most interesting would be to hear some user presets.
Me myself doesn't find the original sound that very impressive.
But since it's seems to be so tweakable i find it amazing that there isn't more user created sounds out there to listen to.
I guess this is because its relatively expensive, so perhaps there aren't so many owners of the V-Piano out there..


/P

Currently im too busy with a lot of projects, finding new work,.. but im planning of making a home for v-piano presets. Hopefully more succesful then the forum another user made.

Also more preset/download based.

I havent actually checked if the presets could be downloaded & uploaded in a setting (uploadable via a usb stick or program).

Gotta check it out
Maybe one of you guys know how to? Really didn't got any time to find something out now (explains my absence on this forum :P)

i don't know how to do it and Lord forbid Roland give any of us any insight into whether it can be done or not... i wish Roland would acquire Pianoteq and have them run the modeled piano program. The pianoteq folks have got client communication nailed. it creates an active community- but obviously the price points make pianoteq much more broadly distributed i guess.


WingNL have you tried using Tone Color? i have found it to be the biggest game changing tweak. going to -1 is giving me the type of mellower less metallic voice i've been looking for. so i haven't given up hope. i would also say that every time i get interested in another board or soft piano- NP88, RD 700NX, Ivory 2 - i start reading enough negative comments by people that i throw my hands up and keep working on the vp.

i'd like to post some recordings so people could tell me if they like the tweaks or not, but like you- life gets in the way!

Apparently any settings you've made can be downloaded on a USB stick and transferred to another V-P/Grand.

But I'll spare you the horror story of my own inept attempt to download the Evolution stuff from Roland's website onto my V-Piano.....

@bfb,

I played a lot with the tone color. I love this feature too! Also think that hammer action, resonance andtuning (i detune the whole thing slightly...sounds too sterile otherwise). Detuning makes the resonance go less and more on others. More unpredictable which, imo, is nice .

Pianoteq and Roland got a lot of work to do. If only I was design manager of those products

Would lvoe to hear some recordings. I do find it hard to judge anyways. My GF best friend came over last weekend from the UK, and she playe REALLY gentle. So her playing acts so different than mine...Even my soft/mellow "Fantasy" preset (which is also -1 tone i think) was too mellow for her. So hardened the hammers a lot, but still...

Presets I think are very dependable on playstyle.. I think that makes the V-piano also harder to handle, but also more versitile.


@Bennevis: poor man! Roland website is not the most helpful one, I must say... guess it's harder to do then it seems

I just purchased a V-piano and am very interested in this thread. Have you guys made any more custom sounds yet?

@Kona_V-Piano,

Welcome to the PW forums!

I am curious to know as to what you are doing in your current setup with the V-Piano, for the following:

1) Speakers, or, headphones?

If you added speakers, what are you using?

2) Music desk, or, stand?

Where do you put your sheet music?

3) Dust cover?

To keep it dust free?

I finally got the Evolution software installed into my V-Piano: after two botched attempts (with the help of a friend who downloaded the stuff from the website onto a USB stick), I rang Roland and they told me not to try again but to let them do it properly, which they did by sending someone round to take my V-Piano to their base for 'repair'. Luckily, I hadn't caused any permanent damage to the electronics.....

So, I thought I'd make use of the new presets, viz:

'Erard' (after one of Chopin's favorite pianos): V1 Impactance sl+10 sr+10 sb+10 cr+10 decay time +70 tc+2 damping time +50

'Klavins 370' (a semi-experimental huge German piano 370cm long, with an amazing sound): Triple Large sr+10 sb+10 cr+10 tc+3

'Broadwood': Metallic SB sl+10 sr+20 sb-10 cr+20 decay time +60 tc-2 damping time +30

And finally, another from one of the original presets which give a nice warmish sound that I somehow associate with the Bayreuth-based piano brand (which I've never had the chance to play) 'Steingraeber E-272': V1 Mellow sl+20 sr+30 sb+100 cr+30 decay time +60 tc+5 damping time +30

I will be using both speakers and headphones.
Headphones: I own a couple Sienhieser Pro headphones and Logitech triple fi 10vi ones.
Speakers: 4 Bose L1 placed in a quadraphonic setup around the room.

I will be using the stand it comes with when it arrives.

I don't use sheet music at all. Everything comes from the heart.

I've been playing the V-piano with a quad setup using 4 Adama Audio A7's. I own 4 Bose L1's so I will give my setup a try.

As for a dust cover, I will use a beach towel Or that soft thin foam material that wraps them in the box.

if i need a dust cover it means i ain't playing it enough.

LOL... So now back to business..

We need a list of custom sounds from all users. It might take a few months to get everyone back on board in this thread that are away. I'll be posting my custom sounds for others to try soon enough.

I'm hoping some of you V-piano folk still come around..Anyone?

Here is my contribution to this fantastic thread. Thank you Bennevis for starting it!! It was this thread that made me decide to buy the V-Piano.

I had already tried the V at the shop and liked it, but I wasn't so convinced about the default sounds. Then I went again to the shop and tried one of your settings (the Steinway one) - and I was amazed at the difference - I was really hooked!

I bought it more than two months ago, and I've been tweaking the heck out of it, comparing the experience of playing with my C3.
I wasn't looking for the same tone, but I wanted to adjust as little as possible going from one to the other in terms of expression and feeling at the keyboard.
The tone on the link below is the one I use now, and I really love it.

Since I used all the possibilities the V offers (velocity follow, key ranges, the Tone EQ ecc.) it's almost impossible to describe the settings here, so I decided to share what Roland calls the Setup File.
It contains one new tone called "Main".
To use it you need to download it to a USB drive (you need to format it on the V-Piano first) and follow the instructions at page 89 of the manual "Loading a Setup file".

WARNING: Loading this setup file will overwrite all your settings, so you need to backup your present settings to a USB key or to the internal memory to be able to restore your V to the previous state later (see page 87 of the manual, Saving a Setup file). Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to just share the tone by itself - apparently you can only save the whole setup of your V on an external storage.

One last thing: I only use headphones on the V (Sennheiser HD650) so the sound has been tweaked using those.

Here is the file:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qk6g8yvy9kgw8z9

Thank you so much again to Bennevis and to all the people who contributed to this thread!

Awesome I can't wait to try out Bennevis's patch. Mine should come in next week.

brilliant guys ...hey, Bennevis, can you update your start post perhaps with the custom made ones? so we have it in one place. Troughout this topic , there are already a few patches extra ;-)

i find it intruiging now more people start doing it.. perhaps, since i got the time really, i could start a v-piano site (not just a forum) with the patches and details of it.

I think it could be nice for people to rate them.

As well, what could be fun.. a DIY section of home made assecories for the V, since there is ext to none out there for our piano

I'll update my original post in a few days' time when I've a bit more time on the computer (and pen and paper.... ).

Erard, thanks for your contribution. Great to have another happy V-Piano owner here. I've have to enlist the help of someone to download your setting, though .

(BTW, my 'Erard' setting sounds nothing like a real Erard of Chopin's time - I'd run out of nice brand names... ...but maybe one day, I'll do some period piano and fortepiano settings for Erard, Pleyel, Broadwood, Walter, Graf etc).

Bennevis,
I sent you a PM.

I don't have a V-Piano,but one of its features interests me--the ability to detune each string of the unisons. Is anyone experimenting much with this? My guess is that this feature would recreate a very realistic sound, since unisons on a real piano are so often off.

A related question, however. Can you see the inharmonicity of each string and the amplitude of the partials?

The 'unison tuning' of the virtual strings is one of the parameters on the V-Piano that makes a significant difference to the tonal characteristics. In real life, acoustic piano strings are never all detuned to the same degree which gives the piano its 'lifelike' sound, and it's possible on the V-Piano to laboriously detune each individual string as much as you like (that's about 200 'strings'). I never bothered to do that - I just used the 'unison tuning' to detune all the strings at the same time and same amount. You can spend months fiddling around with individual parameters on each and every string.....but life is too short .

on unison tuning- i tried to detune each string. didn't sound any different to me- so like bennevis i wound up detuning globally a small amount- bennevis tends to head more to unison- i tended to slightly take it out of unison- +5 to +10. can i tell a big difference? no.... but its that same human compulsion that makes me put salt or pepper or hot sauce on food that really doesn't need it. the idea of having control in an uncontrollable world!

You can fool yourself into thinking anything sounds good at first- hence the danger of being a tweakaholic. would you detune your car's engine from the mfer specs if you could? (fully acknowledging that the consequences are far more dire for your car than your v-piano)....

Surprises me that there's not much difference in the sound. Makes me suspect that the Roland engine just changes the pitch of each string. Shouldn't a change in pitch of one of the unison strings cause a big change in the sound--the overall decay would be reduced, given the way that the coupling would be made more complex, and the decay of lower partials would be reduced,and there would be more beats (three slightly off freqs on each partial)?

There's a big difference in the tonal characteristics once you push the tuning to over +20/-20 or so. Beyond +30 it begins to sound honky-tonk and out of tune; below -30, it starts sounding 'pure'. At -80 or less, it sounds unnaturally pure, like you'd hear from a synthesizer.

And yes, the tuning does affect the decay too, just like in real life strings. The V-Piano has a demo track that shows how the sound changes from -100 to +100: have a listen to it when you get the chance.

But once you spend hours on the tuning parameters, your head starts spinning and you begin to like (or convince yourself you like) a certain kind of tuning, even if it's totally artificial. I haven't messed around with the parameters of my original settings ever since I set it down in stone - otherwise once I start fiddling again, the compulsion to tweak takes over and I forget I'm meant to be practising......

The question in the back of mind was--Has anyone set their V-Piano next to a real piano and tried to get notes, in the midrange particularly, to sound as close as possible, using both the detuning and other features? Granted, it seems like a massive project if an entire piano was attempted, but a comparison of one or two notes might be worthwhile: Can a given piano's middle C be duplicated? (Of course, the soundboard radiation and the general way a real piano spreads the sound around the player will make the experience completely different.)

One consideration--can you see the inharmonicity of each string in the editor, or would you have to record and analyze each string to determine which preset piano would be the best starting point to try to match the real piano?

The reviewer in Performing Musician magazine did that, customizing his V-Piano to sound like his acoustic beside it, quite successfully. He used an editor, I think. Unfortunately, I don't know how to provide the link to that article (which someone has posted in a past thread too - you might be able to fish it out). As for the 'inharmonicity of each string in the editor', I've never used one, nor would I know how to. But the V1 presets (especially V1 Concert) are the best starting points to match up with acoustic pianos, in my experience.

I've now added my new customizations to the original post, but changed the names of the period pianos to present-day ones, to avoid confusion (as I might do some period pianos/fortepianos at a later stage).

Thanks a lot Bennevis. I will be getting mine in two days now

And, mine should be shipping in less than two months from now. It should be the tweaker's paradise of all DP's without a doubt!

Just realized that the link to that post I mentioned is right here in this thread! See FogVilleLad's post #1579674 on 12/18/10 at 8.58pm (page 1 of this thread) and click on the link for the whole review.

I have been reading many threads and posts over the past months but have not
been contributing. I would like to give some feedback.

I have owned my V for 20 months now and love it. I bought it for classical study.
I primarily listen to classical music especially live broadcasts of piano performance whenever possible.
I listen intently to the sound of the piano. The more I listen I realize how well the V emulates this sound.
My default piano is Bennevis's Bossie. I have slightly detuned every string on all of Bennevis's pianos and I find
it is the finishing touch. I also ensure I do not have the volume to high and use large hall reverb set at 12 (it just softens the sound slightly).
For me it is special.

I have entered the Stuart and Sons and the new Steingraeber. Excellent.
I have the Beethoven sonata recordings performed on the Stuart & Sons. I love this piano.

I can discern the failings of currently sampled pianos on commercial recordings , movie soundtracks etc (as many of us here can).
The Nord is best of the bunch. The important aspect for me is the overwhelming accuracy of the V especially when
I compare it to live broadcasts.I wont justify my viewpoint any further except to say a quality piano does have
a metallic characteristic. I do not pine for the woodiness referred to by people.[


I feel greatly appreciative to you Bennevis for your creations.

I now spend my V time practicing.
I appreciated Zachary's comments about trying a V recently even after playing his N1 for weeks now.

New owners, I believe you will be happy. I am yet to hear any recordings/videos of the
V set up with sustain and real subtle detuning. Set your V's up correctly using the pianos in this thread and you will be satisfied.


V Piano Man

I would love to hear audio demos\mp3's of all of these presets that people are discussing. Would posting recordings be valuable?

@V_Piano_Man:

Since you have had your V-Piano for quite a while, would it be possible to request a recording of your playing on it?

And, for everyone else:

As far as I can see no one at PW has done this as of yet, and, I am wondering if this is because they are afraid they might come under tough scrutiny or criticism, for this or that detail?

I, for one, have made quite a few recordings on my previously owned Kurzweil as well as my current Casio AP-620, and, have not felt like I would be in jeopardy for posting some music for others to listen to.

There are now more people who own the V-Piano (as I have one arriving shortly), and, would really like to hear how it sounds with just the standard presets, to start off with.

Bennevis has already contributed his unique presets to this forum, but we still haven't heard anyone record and play any of them as of yet.

Certainly there are some pianists here that can do this?

Hi Jake,

To answer your question, yes... and, perhaps on several levels.

There are those that might want to analyze/dissect every minute detail of a recording or performance for various technicalities. Some will find value in doing just that. This is one level in which it can be discussed.

I would like to hear recordings that are simply the best efforts by the player (whether they are a beginner or advanced pianist), so that the listener will enjoy these performances. Some of us may not have professional equipment in which to use.

And, there now have to be some folks who can step up to the plate and give us something to listen to, as it shouldn't really matter if you can only play a beginner's composition, or, an advanced concert piece.*

I happen to tickle the ivories on account of it being one of the best things that one can do, in life. Therefore, enjoying music is the key ingredient of playing the piano.

So, who will be the first one to post some actual sounds?

*Extra note:

Anyone who owns a "V" is probably a good player, too.

I'll throw in some recordings when I can. I have the equipment to do it. I would like to hear all of the custom sounds and decide which suits my playing best. I have been playing since as long as I remember. I don't read notes, I just play by ear. If anyone has any requests, I can give it a go and make a recording of it. My V-Piano arrives tomorrow I'll post pictures etc. as well.

Sounds like a really good idea to me, and, I thought that perhaps I was going to have to be the first one to try this. Well, you beat me to it!!!! (Just kidding...)

There are really no standards here to go by for recordings (with the exception of the Roland demos performed by Scott Tibbs on Roland's website, and, YouTube); so, I would think that this is as good a time as any for V-Piano owners to reach out a bit and post our stuff. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Do keep in mind your recordings could trigger a lot of comments, but I prefer to think of it as just that, and, not "criticism" as such.

And, thanks for your reply.

V_Piano_Man,
Thanks for your contribution (and your compliments on my settings!).

I'd love to hear the Beethoven Sonatas performed on the Stuart & Sons piano - is it commercially available and who is the pianist? I've only got Stuart & Sons' promotional CD (which doesn't have any classical music on it), and Carl Vine's Sonata No.2 played by Michael Kieran Harvey is the only classical CD I know of so far that uses this amazing piano.

If you have the technical (as in technological) means to post your recordings on the V-Piano here, I'm sure many others would appreciate it, as I would. I did try to hear my recordings (yes, I've finally discovered how to record myself ) on my V-Piano transferred to USB stick and plugged in to a computer, but it sounded nothing like what comes out through the (headphone jack of the) V-Piano itself, so it appears that it needs to be recorded through speakers first.

Like you I spend all my time playing and practising, rather than tweaking. The V-Piano's playability is such that one easily spends a lot, lot more time playing it than intended (even when I was practising hard for my piano performance diploma in my late teens I never played this much ) - time just passes by....

pv88 and Kona V-Piano,
I look forward to hearing your V-Piano recordings in due course too. Maybe we can get more people interested in the V-Piano when they hear good recordings made on it, and realize it's not just amazingly playable (for which they've only got our word on it, unless they've had the opportunity to try it themselves), but also sounds amazingly realistic with its full spectrum of tone color and dynamics.

This is certainly one of the primary reasons I have selected the V. And, how about the lack of looping and longer decay times?

Definitely that too, so make sure you include some slow music requiring long sustain in your recording .

The feeling of realism is a combination of the immediacy of the DP's response to the fingers (and the way you play), and the subsequent sound after you've hit the key, and that is really what separates the V-P/Grand from all other DPs.

Honestly- i think v-piano owners are a small group (perhaps older too) and maybe more piano oriented and less technology oriented, so most of us are techo-morons (i stand at the front of this line...) with the recording/uploading kind of stuff. i have come down to two tweaked pianos i like on mine, and i have made a couple midi files and am going to post them on soundcloud as soon as i get the audio recordings presentable, assuming i don't blow myself up trying to upload them.

what i would like to do is record the files with my two "pianos"- one a version of VP1 Mellow, and the other a version of Silver Dynamic- (and after doing this for months those are the only two i'm willing to work with- for now- although Impactance has a lot of potential). If i can figure out how to upload the midi file too i'd love to have Zachary run it through his NP88 or N2 to see how it compares soundwise.

Kudos to the v-piano user (i can't remember who it was) who pushed the button on tweaking decay and damper time- those two adjustments (along with Tone Color) have made me rethink capital punishment for my v-friend.

Well, mine showed up today damaged So I have to wait until next week for a replacement. I built the stand and everything. Oh well..

Oh, that really is too bad - very sorry to hear that. It's so deflating to be let down like that, particularly with such an expensive item. I do hope you manage to get it sorted very soon.

@Kona_V-Piano,

Very sorry to hear of this...

I would be really mad with UPS on this assuming that it went UPS ground? Since they are probably the ones at fault for delivering a damaged piano.

I have seen enough of this to know that boxes can be badly mishandled anywhere along the delivery route as almost anything can happen. Be sure that the seller/store knows this right away and I hope you can get the replacement soon.

pv88, it's easy to blame the shipping agents when products arrived damaged on arrival, however there is a long distribution line from factory to warehouse to store to distribution centre to customer. Each step can result in damage - not just the final delivery.

Kind regards,
James
x

Extra note:

I can empathize with Kona_V-Piano's predicament here, as it is just another headache to contend with that no one needs, especially with an expensive piece of equipment like the V-Piano. And, it's quite heavy, too.

Hi James,

Please do read through my post again, as I am not putting blame on any one individual here, as damage can happen "anywhere along the delivery route" as I mentioned. These things just do happen.

This is true that there are many places damage can occur during delivery. In this case though, I am 100% sure the damage to the left front corner occurred in front of me as I watched the UPS driver drop the V-Piano box right on the corner. I told him to wait while I open up the garage, that I would help, however as I open up the garage I see him simply letting the v-piano drop right on the corner. I wish I had a video of this. Two guys are needed to lift the box properly out of a truck. UPS never uses two guys in one truck for packages less than 150 pounds. So I have to remind myself to tell the same driver (which I know it will be) exactly what the package is and that it is very fragile, to wait so I can help him. And hopefully no damage occurred elsewhere.

Just so everyone knows. I received the package and signed for it since I ordered it from Musicians Friend and they have a 100% guarantee policy on damaged items which occur from shipping. (you don't have to refuse the item at the door and not sign the ups confirmation) This is why I'm glad I did not purchase this from an e-bay seller that states "no returns accepted". You are taking a huge risk in doing so that you will receive a damaged item that you cannot return. (Obviously pay for shipping insurance in that case) However why go thru the hassle when a company like musicians friend will send you another while while they send ups to come and pick up the damaged one without costing you anything more? I should be getting the replacement next week. Good things come to those who wait.

I sympathize, having been involved with moving my V-Piano twice now. The first time (after buying it), I was asked by the store manager if I would be prepared to help to carry the thing up to my apartment, as the driver would be on his own; otherwise I'd have to wait a week longer for special delivery when they'd have two people doing the delivery. Even just carrying one side was heavy enough.

When Roland came to take my V-Piano away for repair (i.e. installing the Evolution upgrade after I came close to messing up its electronics), they had two people. The same when they brought it back, much to my relief.

The box is well padded and feels very solid, but you really can't drop it on a corner from a height......

What happened to pv88's open letter?

James
x

@James,

Has been edited as the info no longer applied.
(Check your PM that I have sent.)

Bennevis

The piano recordings are of Gerard Willems. (spelling ?).

Me recording? If I can work out a satisfactory process.

This is my simple but effective method of detuning. With remedial basics.

1. Use one of Bennevis's pianos eg. Bossie.

2. After editing save the piano to a new position. Or perhaps save a new copy
in preparation for editing (that is why I have inluded this step at the beginning and not the end).
Rename it Bossendorfer* or Bossendorfer +- or ????
THe purpose is to have two pianos for comparison.

3. Go into the editing for unison tune and press key.

4. In this editing screen press range set (leave this on throughout this process).
With this parameter highlighted, you press a key on the keyboard
and you can detune the strings for this note alone. I have experimented and now only tune the fundamental.
That is to say DONT press the string button. So by default you are only tuning the fundamental.

5. Lets say you are going to tune every fundamental string on the keyboard.
So press A1. THe range parameter will show A1 and the range 0. Turn the alpha dial so it now reads somewhere
between -2 and +2. Your choice, your decision. Its your piano!

(some pianos you can go increase beyond +2 and -2 but others it already starts to sound too exagerated.
Nonetheless experiment. For instance the Stuart & Sons (+3) gave me some noticeable stretches that I didnt like.
However the fun thing was: while playing - 'What note was that? I better tune it!')

6. Next note.
Press Bb1. THe range parameter will show Bb1 and the range 0. Again, Turn the alpha dial so
it now reads somewhere between -2 and +2. Again Your choice, Again your decision. Its your piano!

7. Continue up the keyboard. This should take about 5 - 10 minutes.

8. Exit, exit exit. Write.

9. Remember if you mess your tuning you can always go back in to the tuning editing and press 'clear'.

10. From time to time especially with fresh ears, play the original piano for just 5 - seconds.
Then play your tuned piano.
For me the difference is so much closer to the real thing.

VPianoMan

Now this is what this thread is all about. Thanks for sharing the process of detuning with us Hopefully by next week I'll be playing and recording.

As you process the notes one by one, I suppose that you don't give all the notes the same value. If the goal is to set each note with a random value between two values, you should use the software I wrote. Hers's the link to the post about it : http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1650289

V_Piano_Man,
Thanks for your reply - I'm going to order the complete set of Gerard Willems's Beethoven Piano Sonatas. One can't have too many complete CD sets of these marvellous works (I've got 5 already, plus lots of individual CDs of selected Sonatas played on Bosendorfer and Fazioli as well as Steinway).

I'll also have a go at doing that tuning method you described. Am I right in assuming that your method (de)tunes all 3 strings for each note at the same time, rather than one of the three strings? Or are you detuning the middle string of each set of three (which is the same as detuning any one of each set of three, when listened to)?

I am going to herein refer to Bennevis's pianos with prefix 'BNV'. eg BNV Bossendorfer, BNV Steingraeber E272.

Bennevis please feel free to edit your original post with this cataloging system

Your hearing is more acute than mine Bennevis. And your instinct for finding the matching
tone and parameters is also superior. I think you might have perfect pitch. I do not.
For instance, when I tested the V at the shop I asked the assistant
could I make a Stuart & Sons. Of course he said yes. When I played with it at home I thought the
Metallic (evolution was loaded for me) was going to be the piano basis for editing. I believe the
Stuart & sons creates a vertical vibration resonance through the sound board not horizontal as other
soundboards. I read this somewhere, so someone please elaborate and correct if appropriate.

Also Bennevis, I didnt give you too much information regarding the Willems recordings. I was not surprised to
see you had located them. I think they were recorded '99 or 2000.

- by the way loving the BNV Steingraeber E272.

So my understanding of the tuning editing:
When entering the edit screen after pressing 'Key' any changes made by default
tune/detune string 2 (- only if the key has 3 strings). Increasing the value (+) makes the string (2)
less tuned with 1 and 3.
If you decrease string 2 to minimum (-100) all 3 strings will be equal. (My understanding from manual page 49.)
Obviously finding the tolerable limit to ones owns ears is important.

When I experimented with strings 1 and 3 (where appropriate) I found the changed value effected all keys
across the keyboard. I need to retry this. The affect was too great for my liking even with minimal change in value.
Quickly goes to honky tonk.

If there is a piano tuner reading please feel encouraged to assist V piano , piano tuning amateurs.

Another important thing.
Example: The BNV Bossie has a tuning value of -60 (across the keyboard).
I am still uncertain what the overall change to this setting is, after being edited key be key.
I have been thinking that further individual changes create an offset to the -60 value. Then I start to think
this is logically impossible. Now I think the additional editing perhaps removes the newly edited note
from the -60 tuning and .... just tunes it with the new values. Someone with great hearing tell me please.

Also I wish the Roland techs watching us would comment even annomously.
For better or worse We are marketing their machine for them.


Epeios:

Thanks for your comment. I looked at your software some months ago - an overview only .
I did not actually test for my own reasons.
Yes the values are random between +-2; even extending greater than +-2. It is not a difficult process.
For the user to do this empowers them with a skill of control. The control is to create a piano with deliberate intent.
I am not against your randomizing software, the choice is for the user.

THere are probably other things but .... for now I am done.

I'm learning a lot from reading all of your posts. I can't wait until I get mine to be able to join in on the customizing. Glad to see some new V-Piano owners join in. Or veteran V-piano owners that decided to join in for the first time as well We''re a small group, however I believe we have the potential to grow once more people realize what a versatile instrument this is.

The V should stand for Versatile. Roland, I'm giving you some free marketing advice here..

I've been asking myself the same question, and I came to the conclusion (by experimenting with extreme values to make differences more obvious) that the overall settings and the single key setting are summed (algebraic sum).
For example, if you set the overall Hammer Hardness to +50, then a single key to +20, that particular key will get a setting of +70 - if the key is set to -20 than the setting for that key will be +30.




I agree. A great instrument with a disappointing manual.

....ok, ok here you go.

This is me playing Chopin's nocturne Op.9 n.1 (A part only) mistakes, wrong phrasing and all!
Just one take as I get increasingly nervous with the "red dot" syndrome

I recorded to midi using the edited tone I gave the link to in a previous post in this thread. This edited tone is based on the "V1 Concert" preset.

So, I rendered two versions of it. The first one is the V-Piano "V1 Concert" original preset:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/23859o2o2xu8tuj/V1Concert.mp3
http://www.mediafire.com/file/7ld8hyz4y4rnczb/V1Concert41K16.wav (same as above, better quality)

The second one is the tone I edited, based on "V1 Concert", and it's the tone I use to play:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ux134hfkln19s87/EditedTone.mp3
http://www.mediafire.com/file/4rxft5eczifcze1/EditedTone-41K16.wav (same as above, better quality)

When comparing the two tones, keep in mind that the difference between the two is far more obvious when playing.

The first note is missing on both recordings because I had to start-stop during rendering at the beginning, then change the tone and then start again, otherwise the V would always choose the same preset (there must be a change command at the very beginning of the MIDI file).

@Erard,

Congratulations, as it looks like you get the authentic PW honors for being able to post a FIRST recording as played on the original Roland V-Piano, in this forum!

And, I must say that you play the opening section of the Chopin Nocturne very well. Nicely done, too. Perhaps it is just a bit quick in overall tempo for my taste, but was very good, nonetheless.

Let me add here that I liked your second recording a little better than the first, as I pick up a little more reverb/resonance quality to it, but that's just my ear in comparison.

Extra note:

Also, the "quote" above is not correct for "folks who can step up to the plate," since it was not originally posted by Jake Johnson... look back to page 4 of this thread as "pv88" is the original author in regards to making this challenge.

Now, how did that portion of my post get misconstrued, here?

....oops! sorry, I edited my previous post with the correct quote author.

Edit: I see what happened - There is a quote in your post by Jack Johnson and I must have messed up with the closing quote tag.... I also corrected the color in your quote.

Erard,

Okay, your editing appears to have fixed it.

Enjoyed your playing, and, that is a good piece!

Chopin, Liszt, and Rachmaninoff, have always been three of my favorite composers, so do continue to play as I will listen.

pv88, thank you for your kind words about my playing!

Does everyone here think that these recordings by Erard sound like a real piano? The melody line at the beginning - are you all content that that is how a real acoustic piano sounds? Just wondering....

Played both - they are identical tonally of course. Marginally prefer number two and enjoyed the playing.

Steve

I too enjoyed Erard's playing, however the recording doesn't sound at all like the preset V1 Concert that I hear though my headphones when I play. Can you explain what equipment you used to record the wav file, as there is a considerable change from the source sound including an added tinniness. There could be a filter it is passing thru making the drastic change to the sound.

Other than that, congrats on being the first in posting recorded music as well the first of many from different members including myself soon enough.

Even though Musicians Friend has not requested of me any pictures of the damage, and at my end they are taking care of this situation better than I expected, I decided that if anything this could get back to Roland for them to improve their packaging materials around the corners.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1754400/Kona_V-Piano.html#Post1754400

Thank you Kona, I hope you can get your V very soon!

So, about the tone difference, this is interesting - I would definitely be curious to hear other people's recordings to compare the tone to mine.

This is how I did the recording:
I played the piece and saved it as a midi file on a USB drive.
Then I played the same file through the V-piano connected to my computer on the S/PDIF output to S/PDIF input of my M-Audio audiophile 192.
Once with V1 Concert preset and once with the edited tone.
The recording was made in Adobe Audition @96k/32Bit.
Then I normalized both files at -3dB, as the level was a bit low.
I converted the files to 41k/16bit (wav) and to MP3 320Kbps, and these are the files you see posted.
It's a full digital recording.
I also checked the system equalizer on the V, and is flat as I never used it. The only system setting that is different on my V from default is the Key Touch Offset which is @ -8 (Key Touch is at Medium)

I don't hear any difference between the sound on the files and the sound when playing, on both presets.

Sounds like you recorded it properly. It is possible that I have a problem with my computers sound card or program I am using to hear it. I will listen to it on another computer through better headphones and a different program than itunes and get back to you. I'll be using Sony Vegas 10 for my audio editing and converting.

Erard,
I tried listening to your files on two different (work) computers, but couldn't get a realistic sound through my earphones on either - in fact they sounded like the synthetic sound I got from my USB stick (on which I downloaded my own recordings direct from my V-Piano) when I listened via the computer. Maybe it's something to do with the program, like Kona says.

But your playing of the Chopin is very nice. Now I know why you call yourself Erard.....


V_Piano_Man,
I think the tuning method you described uses as its basis the 'unison tuning' that's already been tweaked, as Erard says, i.e. they are summed. So, tweaking the Bosendorfer setting would use -60 as its zero point, not 0. And the same applies to the other parameters that can be individually tweaked on each note.

I went through all the 88 keys randomly (de)tuning each one in the way you suggested - it didn't take as long as I'd feared, once I got the hang of it, and yes, it does add extra realism to the sound. Thanks for that suggestion.

I haven't got perfect (absolute) pitch, but thanks for your comments on my hearing .

This thread makes me wanna go buy a V-Piano just to test out these sounds. I've recently played the V-Piano for extended periods of time, last week and the week before, and even with its faults in its mids (if even you see or hear them as such) the V-Piano is still an instrument I'd love to own.

Who was it who said "I can resist anything except temptation'....
I've always followed that advice .

This is my first attempt to upload mp3's through a hosting site so bear with me!

I've been a tweaking fool on the V-Piano lately and i wanted to upload 4 tweaked pianos to get a feeling from some of you as to their "serviceability". What i'm asking you is not so much if they are "authentic" as a representation of a certain make piano, but are they pleasing at all to listen to in their own right...?

Most of my tweaks involved lengthening decay and damper times, adjusting tone color to -1 for a less metallic tone, softer hammers etc.

I didn't bother to record the basic VP1 piano untweaked. Trust me, it basically sucks in its native state. If you'd like it i can do it at a different time.

Piano 1: Silver Dynamic

http://www.mediafire.com/?nbwkd9mbe7v7xlv

Piano 2: Silver 1 - Soft Silver

http://www.mediafire.com/?rv6m57xmtyat5n5

Piano 3: VP1 Concert

http://www.mediafire.com/?i0ifun2uevfltpz

Piano 4: VP1 Concert- softened

http://www.mediafire.com/?25809u7d113v0wc

As i mentioned, all these are tweaked fairly extensively, and all slightly detuned. As is typical of home recording, i feel a lot of "sparkle" or whatever was lost in the conversion from 24 bit recording to wav file to mp4. but thats life until i become a better recording engineer!

the piece is just a homely but original little diddie i've been working on, a reflection on some great early mornings amongst the aspen trees in Wyoming during a vacation we had this summer.....

Erard and bfb

Appreciating your recordings and uploads.

I can confirm the recordings do not accurately represent what is heard through headphones on the V. I have tried some recording testing , but I am so disappointed with the recording playback.

However you have both achieved a beginning from where improvement can be achieved.

bfb, your recording of soft silver does however show a lot of character in parts where there is a moment or two of hint of the truth. I am listening again now ...... It surprises me how the true sustain isnt heard. I had the same problem.

I listened also to the Yamaha N1 recording zachary recently referenced. The N1 records so much better. (At this stage)

Anyway , there must be a way of achieving a better recording. So persevere.

V piano man

BFB, thank you for your uploads. It is a beautifully played piece of music. Please keep them coming.

Mine is coming by truck and will arrive on Monday according to the tracking info. I'm not going to be playing another V until mine arrives as I want to build up some anticipation for it over the weekend. My first recording will be done using my Tascam Zoom MRS1044CD which is a very good quality recording tool. Then run it through Vegas 10 for editing. I'll see how that goes first before attempting anything else.

Bruce's recordings are awful - lovely piece indeed and very nice playing. But come on guys, time to face the truth...be honest and ask yourselves if this sounds like a real piano? They are all the same tonally with very slight differences resulting from Bruce's tweaks. Sounds like a very one-dimensional electronic pastiche of a piano.

As for it sounding different when you actually play...I understand this. Every time I have recorded myself (on any piano) the sound of a recording never seems the same as what you hear at the time through 'phones. It is some kind of psychological effect. Sometimes the recording actually sounds better, sometimes worse - in any event, always different.

Is it possible that the V-Piano's peerless dynamic response seduces the player and gets the player so "into" what they're doing that it causes a suspension of critical tonal listening? This is the case with the V-Piano's ancestor the RD-1000 (pure modelling, mathematical algorithm - superlative dynamics and expressiveness) - the lack of tonal authenticity is forgiven in favour of pure wonderment at the dynamics of the thing.

I recently found a CD I recorded directly from my V-Piano's line outs into an old hi-fi CD recorder (so would be entirely representative of what the player hears through 'phones) - I hadn't labelled the disc and was sorting through some stuff. I played it and had the same immediate shudder of recognition the moment I heard the first couple of notes - it was the V-Piano. But playing it was often, despite the massive tonal shortcomings, satisfying on some level due to the way it just always had dynamics in reserve - like you could never really find its limit. That was great - but the sound - truly awful in the mid-range. It's a shame because that is where the melody is carried and it stands out straight away.

Anyway guys, keep tweaking and experimenting. I secretly want it all to work out for you. If someone could make it sound like a real piano I'd save my pennies and buy another one, without any doubt. I have to say to you all though, I'm not holding my breath for any kind of breakthrough because I tried everything (and I'm not the only one).

Cheers,

Steve

Steve, with all due respect, your opinions are your opinions, and we've all had them shoved down our throats by you time after time after time..... We all know your opinions are way, way superior than any of ours, and of course your experience in piano sound (and what pianos should sound like) and piano playing is peerless, and Roland should take note of your advice, and get rid of the V-Piano unless they can revamp it to your specifications.

I'm off on holiday, but as Arnie says, 'I'll be bakk'.

Steve,

thanks for commenting and now excuse me while i go blow my brains out.
.......but i know where you are coming from and i take no offense. I'm not ready to give up on the vp as i am still wanting to extract the value that Roland has managed to completely obscure and leave to the user to discover.

If i thought i knew a better path i'd gladly take it, but after listening to the demos for the rd700nx, mp10, and the korg kronos, to me, these recordings all fell way short of what i wanted to hear (although i really enjoy playing the rd700nx at GC), particularly at the back end of the tone. And you would think the mfer would put their best foot forward with great sounding demos, so it makes me wonder if you can ever record these things and be satisfied with it. also, the sound i'm looking for is not a distant, ambient and maybe "clipped" classical piano sound, but a sweeter, more rounded, softer and closer sound that is more introspective?, whimsical?, impressionistic?.... you know, the kind of sound that makes crappy piano playing sound better !!! The NP88 demos really appeal to me as a possible alternative but i haven't found one to play, and the AP's on the Electro 3 models i've played at GC really sounded harsh and tinkly to me (since i'm trying to find a softer, mellow sounding piano). Ivory 2 definitely interests me but the technology requirements are off-putting. i might bite on it when external Thunderbolt HDD's for my macbook are available for under a million dollars.

anyway, for me, now...the soft silver setup has the potential for what i described above, at least amongst the unwashed base of family and friends who might listen to me or at least put it on in the background while they drink too much wine. One thing i noticed going to cdbaby.com and listening to piano solo recordings - everybody's recorded pianos sounded different, there was no uniformity, and once you got acclimated to the sound of the piano you moved on to the music itself, so its not worth getting hung up on.

Kona, thank you for your compliment...VP man- thanks and what would you do to clean up or improve the soft silver recording? more reverb? different EQ? etc... i'm not ready to give up yet and i want to torture Steve some more, as he seems to return to this thread as a bug does to the flame! (we're all having fun here and no one should get their feelings hurt about digital pianos, not with all the real problems we face in our world.....)

peace,
Bruce

PS: mfer= manufacturer. (not the other obvious contraction..!)

i think this is the way you should look at this phenomenom... when you play you are using sight, touch, and hearing. you have 3 applications running in your brain CPU. when you are just listening to your recording, you are only running 1 application- hearing. We all know that our computers run a program faster when other programs are shut down. So when you are in listen-only mode - all your brain/CPU power is geared to that one sense. you are now hearing everything -and its a lot more nuanced than when you were playing. its a good way to help you clean up artifacts from your playing style. and when you go back to an old recording you havent listened to for a good while, you find that you have lost the "memory" of touch and sight, and you aren't as critical of every note, as you are when you first record it. you take it more in its entirety. so don't erase those old recordings- give them some time to age in the cask!

Ha ha, nice comment - You're right, I do return like a bug to a flame because my V-Piano experience cost me dear - financially and emotionally so my interest in it continues. I would love it to sound right because in some respects the V-Piano is better than anything else. Anyway Bruce, do please keep torturing me with your efforts!

Cheers,

Steve

Steve (EssBrace),

The V-Piano sounds like a whole lot of different real piano's and a couple of make believe ones as well. On my Clavinova I can record and play back exactly what I play and I hear no difference in the recorded sound. The same with my S90. So I should be able to do the same with my V-Piano. You say you used an old Hi-Fi CD recorder which is what I will be using to record mine which although not 100% digitally perfect, it comes very close to the actual representation. I don't hear a problem with the mid-range as you do when playing it at the two locations using completely different setups. If I felt there was a problem with the sounds as a whole I would not have purchased one.

Everyone else,

Don't let critique's like Steve's (ESSBrace) stop you from uploading or trying. Having a critic is a good thing, as it keeps us on our toes. Just like in the movie Ratatouille, the main villain/critic finally was given something he liked in the end and turned from the dark side.

Steve,

I am going to try and get the exact sound of my CLP990 to come out of the V-Piano. I have the ear to be able to program it and listen for details.

Ok, good luck. I look forward to hearing your efforts.

Steve

Good point...

Countdown till V-day. 5 days I hope the piano God's give the second delivery a softer moving experience to its new home.



Roland does need to package their flagship V-Piano a lot better from factory, that's for certain.

I'm bakk!
(Actually just wasting time while waiting for the weather to clear before I set off up the mountain, and couldn't resist... )

Now that you're drawn back into the fire, Steve, maybe I can bait you some more. Can you tell the difference between a Fazioli and a Steinway? Have you even heard a Fazioli? Or a Blüthner? Or a Bösendorfer? Or Shigeru Kawai? (I know you've heard a Yamaha grand, since you got rid of one that you bought within weeks... )

I have my doubts, since you plainly can't hear the difference between the samples on the V-Piano, yet purport to hear the mythical 'mid-range problem' that none of us here can hear. If you can take advice from a mere classical pianist like yours truly, may I humbly suggest you get out into the real world of acoustic grand pianos and educate yourself on the wide range of piano sounds out there, by playing lots and lots of real pianos, and noting the different tone even between two pianos of the same brand and model. And then you might realize that your Nord samples are a travesty of the real thing (but maybe you don't know that....).

Why, maybe even book a seat to hear a classical piano recital at the world-famous Aldeburgh Festival, right at your doorstep in Suffolk, and hear for yourself what a wide range of color and dynamics a classical pianist can draw out of his instrument.....

Have to go, but I'll be bakk........

Hi bennevis,

Sounds like you truly have the real ear for these acoustic piano sounds, and, as to how they relate to the V-Piano as far as modeling simulation goes!

Would like to give you more feedback on your specific preset settings after getting my V-Piano, and, will be glad to try them out.

Your V-Piano experience sounds like a bad divorce. lol. I honestly when I play it don't hear a midrange problem as you and a few others in this forum do. Repeating something that is in your head over and over is not going to make it any more real than you believe it already to be for whatever reasons.

Perhaps you shall hear as I will play many songs using all the ranges the V-Piano has to offer. I'll even record the same song on the V-Piano via midi and replay it on the CLavinova as well, just for contrast as my Clavinova sounds ands plays very similar to the AvantGrand (same piano type used for the main recording).

y'all leave Steve be. His comment is actually very helpful to me. if he had said the recordings were wonderful but my playing and composition skills were awful (most likely not far off from the truth...), then i'd have all of you pounce on him for real.

although it might not change things much, i think i might have had conflicting setups in EQ and Dynamics in my Yamaha recorder. So i'm going to try to clean that up and re-do my recordings, and maybe also record them on Garbageband (sic). if there is any improvement, i will resubmit for the amusement of the audience here.

Steve, for your penance, if i uploaded the midi file, could you render something w/ NP88 or N3 for comparison. that would be hugely helpful...

Steve, be as critical as you want. Especially with me. We are a friendly bunch. Like most people here, I will be new at recording so mine will not be perfect at first, but I will do my best to make it as perfect a recording as possible.

bennevis - I don't claim to be a good player but I do have a good ear (I wish my ear was less good to be honest because then I would not have wasted £1000s on hi-fi and a dozen digital pianos):

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...0the%20piano............html#Post1753890

You refer to the Aldeburgh Festival - which takes place at Snape Maltings - which is exactly where I was on Tuesday funnily enough. You can rest assured that I know what real pianos sound like. The V-Piano is like a piano that you can voice in different ways - but it is one piano. It is not like several DIFFERENT pianos (which is what Roland claim - and what I thought I was buying and is one of the two main reasons for my disappointment with it).

Kona - Unlike my bad divorce I wish for you a long and happy marriage with your V-Piano!

Bruce - I'm not fantastic with technology but would gladly try and play your MIDI file on the AvantGrand or the Nord (at the moment the Nord is back in its box but I have a Yamaha CP33 going so could use that) and record the results.

Steve

Steve - why did you give up on the NP88. i have a yammie p250 so the CP33 would be redundant, but thanks anyway. the NP88 was on my possible "what I do next" list, along with using the vpiano to control Ivory 2 (most likely going to happen- because that way i can still play the vpiano - which i enjoy- create midi files on it - and then render them into the Ivory 2- which can all be done for under 500 bucks including a faster 2nd HDD on my music computer).

I haven't given up on the Nord - it is the best DP I've owned in some ways - certainly has the most character. It's a wonderful piano. And not wishing to have another swipe at the V-Piano, the Nord really DOES contain tonally completely different pianos! The action is not so hot though and switching between that and the AvantGrand is not much fun.

I had a Roland FP7F for a few weeks thinking that the action on that would be a better match for the AG - but the gulf is huge. I have the AG in a room downstairs and a little cinema/project room upstairs and like to keep a stage piano on the go in there. But nothing gives the tactile satisfaction of the AG. The one left for me to consider is the Kawai MP10 - but I'm somewhat penniless at the moment!

I'm also wondering about going over to software pianos in future.

i swore off soft pianos- but like the...Bug drawn to the Flame!....i'm probably going to take a flyer on Ivory, if for nothing else then rendering midi files (which i don't really believe in, i think how the piano sounds and feels influences the way you play, and you miss something just rendering midi- but it is expedient).

i'm checking my pc to see if it is up to snuff CPU wise and if so will add a 7200 rpm hdd and give Ivory a try.

thanks!

Mine is coming in tomorrow. I've been working the past few days nonstop, been checking the site on my cellphone. Sorry to those I have not responded to in messages. Hopefully I will have enough time to play the V-Piano and record before I have to fly away again.

My V-Piano came in perfect. I have been playing all the presets so far and will commence trying out the tweaking and doing some recording before the weekend.

Very glad to hear everything was OK with your V!

Thanks. Here is a very cool sound I came up with by accident. Just play a note and depending on how hard or soft, you'll hear either a slow or fast vibrato that resonates throughout the tone. Beautiful sounding is all I can describe it as and very different from any of the presets. Give it a try and let me know what you think.

As my one and only new sound so far and I am proud of it, you can go ahead and call it Kona

Ambience knob setting is in the top middle and use Hall 2 for the ambiance.

Parameters:
t=tuning h=hammer cr=cross resonance, sr=string resonance, sb=soundboard resonance, sl=sound lift, tc=tone color (all those not listed here remain at default setting)

Firstly, increase the decay time to +70 and damping time to +30 for all of them, to bring the sustain up to concert grand level.

'Kona' (from V1 Concert) t+60 h+70 cr+20 sr+20 sb+75 sl 0 tc+2

I'm sure you can figure out what the accident was..lol.. However I love it now.. I see a bright future for creating new piano sounds with this never before heard. I look forward to recording some songs using this new voice as well just for fun.

Great, I'll put your Kona setting into my V this evening, and look forward to your recordings.

BTW, I assume you're listening to your V using a speaker set-up? I've got myself a new pair of open headphones and the sound is subtly different through them compared to my (closed) AKGs. Almost like a piano tech has been and tweaked the hammers etc....

What brand are your open headphones? I am using closed Sennheiser Pro HD280's at the moment since I am mostly playing at night and don't want to disturb my wife.

http://reviews.cnet.com/headphones/sennheiser-hd280-pro/4505-7877_7-30235462.html

I do want to get a pair of good open ones though as they do tend to sound more natural.

I've got the Grado SR325, which came highly recommended in a hifi magazine - I got offered it at half price and couldn't resist, despite not having a chance to audition before buying . It does sound crisper and clearer than my AKGs, but the sound leaks out like a sieve: anyone within 20 ft will be able to hear what you're playing. But no problem for me, and though it does presses somewhat onto my ears (whereas the closed AKGs fit around my ears), the more airy feeling and sound makes me prefer using it.

I find Grados too bright and brash, although very dynamic. The main problem is they hurt! After 20 mins I find all Grados very uncomfortable. Decent Sennheisers (HD 600s or 650s for instance) or I use AKG 701s are more refined sonically and very much more comfortable in my opinion.

At present, I'm only using my Grados for 1/2 hour non-stop at a time, but I'm hoping the headband will loosen up over time and not press so much on my ear flaps. Either that, or my flaps will compress down.....

Try sticking your flaps down with Copydex! Seriously, they are nice things, Grados (especially the 325s as they are quite some way up the Grado range), if only the comfort factor was better. My AKGs give my ears a big gentle cuddle.

My AKGs do that too, which made them rather warm & sweaty during the heat wave recently. When my ear flaps need warming up again this winter, I'll probably go back to using them. Unless my flaps have compressed by then .

i have the HD 600's afer using AKG's K240's and closed Audiotechnica' m50's (both also good headphones). I can wear the open HD's much, much longer- much less ear fatigue, and the open architecture really makes you believe you are not listening through headphones. i thought the AKG's were bassier, and the Autiotechnica's more mid-upper range oriented, whereas the Sennheisers have a great balance to them. Usually i avoid higher end of anything, but these (which may not be THAT high ended) are clearly worth a premium and great for solo piano work.

I just ordered the Sennheiser - HD598's. At half the price, hopefully they sound almost as good as the HD650's and HD600's some of you have on here.

This is a review I found of someone comaparing the 598 to the 600. http://www.headfonia.com/hd600-and-hd598-comparison/ Can anyone who has listened to both confirm what the reviewer hears?

Hi Kona_V-Piano, bennevis, and, everyone else:

I now can officially announce that I received my V-Piano as of Thursday, Nov. 10th, 2011, and, it arrived in perfect condition after much concern regarding the free UPS shipping. You can read the other details about the purchase in the Digital Piano "Prices Paid" list, also.

As for the acoustic grand piano-like modeled sounds, they are quite spectacular. Have only tried a few of the standard "presets," although they are all that one needs if you are looking for realistic piano sounds.

This is the one that you can truly play...

Congratulations, PV, I don't expect we'll hear much from you for a while. When you need to come up for a breather, perhaps put pen to proverbial paper, and give us your more deeply considered impressions.

Jonathan

Congrats indeed pv88!

James
x

Hi James, and, 10fingers:

Didn't really think that I would receive very many replies to my announcement, but I am truly grateful for yours!

Will probably take a while to settle in with the V-Piano, and, have to get some decent audio cables before I can make any recordings, etc.*

Other than that, the V sounds great at first hearing.

*And, a piano stand for scores, as well.

Congratulations. Long wait. How are you listening to it though?

Congratulations! I've heard some of your playing and all I can say is that it must be a great feeling having the talent to really make the most of such a fine instrument. Enjoy!

Greg.

Hi Greg, and, spanishbuddha:

Thanks, and, currently I do my listening through headphones only as all I have to use are an old cheap $20 pair from Radio Shack. Will be getting better ones as money allows in the future.

I am so terribly broke now (after buying the piano) that I will be lucky to obtain just the music stand I need out of necessity, for scores.

Have to try and get one thing at a time, as very good high quality monitors will be the last step.

Great for you, pv88, that after waiting such a long time you've finally got that beast into your home. I hope you'll eventually post some recordings here that will give everyone something of the experience that you get from playing it yourself.

Hi bennevis,

And, a "beast" it is, as the unbridled sonorities that are possible are something that can't be calculated clinically by the player, only performed and heard.

I don't claim to be Vladimir Horowitz (as no one can pretend to be someone they are not) although I know what I want from a piano, and this one is it.

The dynamic range of the V is really incredible, so much so that one can play extraordinarily well, even in simple pieces!

And it sounds "spectacular" you say?

Congrats on the new arrival but nothing, not even a V-Piano, will sound spectacular through $20 Radio Shack 'phones!

Yes, one of the many things about the V-Piano that impressed me is that you can actually get an ugly sound out of it (or 'going through its tone'), just like you can on any acoustic but impossible on sampled DPs because the sampling only goes so far and no further. Horowitz (and in our day, Lang Lang and some of the Russian virtuosi, occasionally) used to 'bang' a lot, deliberately getting a harsh clangy sound out of his piano, to heighten the excitement in climaxes. And of course he also plays a lot of pppp - and you can do that on the V-Piano to a greater extent than sampled DPs. I've yet to reach the V-Piano's limit at ffff.......

This is one of the reasons I acquired the V-Piano... have to agree, 100%.

And, as always, thanks for your insightful comments.

First three recordings, from the V-Piano:

I am using only a single stereo cable from the V-Piano's headphone jack over to my Mac mini computer (using a 1/4 to 1/8 adapter to fit the Mac's line in jack), and, the software used for the recording is Audacity. Since there is only one headphone jack on the V, have to listen to my playing through the software and not directly from the V-Piano. Could adjust the volume levels for the playing only after the record button had been clicked on, which starts the recording process. Decided that this was the easiest way to record off of the V, after having tried two separate mono cables from the line out jacks in the back, which didn't get any sounds to the software. So, no go, with that setup. The single stereo cable from the V's headphone jack simplifies everything quite well, and, it works!

The piano was recorded with all of the default settings, using the "Vintage Piano 1" preset, as no other changes were made. Played only a few bars from the opening of Chopin's Scherzo No. 2, as the first test. Even with only the basic default settings this piece comes alive, and, the dynamics in the playing are very clear:

1) http://www.box.com/s/h9xfvm44ibq35n2z9i23

Have now added my first complete piece, here:

2) http://www.box.com/s/zvdmxvz6p2q8aucui8mh

Again, with the "Vintage Piano 1" preset.

Had to compensate a bit with the overall volume level on the V-Piano, as it had to be just loud enough so that I could hear all of the dynamics as I was playing, even though this piece is pretty much "p" to "pp" throughout. Only in the middle section does it go to perhaps "mf" briefly, with the swelling arpeggio. This recording will probably give the impression of being right inside the piano lid, just as it would with a very close microphone placement on an acoustic grand, etc.

And, my inspiration for playing the "Moonlight" sonata has always been the Columbia recording by the now legendary Rudolf Serkin, from the 1960's. The tempo I have taken is somewhat slow (like Serkin's), yet it still has to remain flowing from the very first note to the last, without exception.

The third recording below is Gabriela Montero's improvisation piece, in which I use the "Silver Extreme" preset:

3) http://www.box.com/s/5i5n1xv3yfi0gzoiid2m

Thanks for posting. I enjoyed your playing.

Steve

Glad to finally hear you playing your long awaited v-piano, after making us all wait with you Great stuff.

pv88,
I really like your playing of the Moonlight!

You playing really shows what a great musical instrument this is. ("musical instrument" - as you can tell it's not an AP, but - who cares?)
Although most of the dynamic range is centered around p - pp, bass, arpeggio and melody are on different levels (I like the singing quality of the upper melody) and there is still plenty of dynamic and timbrical room and variety for the phrasing of each one of them.
In my experience the V is the only non acoustic piano that allows this kind of subtlety of expression.

Very, very well done.

pv88, congratulations on getting your new instrument.

I have to say that I am very envious of your talent and the V-Piano sounds really good straight out of the box, even with such a low recording level. I fear I am beginning to suffer from another bout of piano envy.

I know how much better the V-Piano can sound once you have played around with tuning and some of the other changes suggested in this thread so I hope to hear more of your recordings as you get to grips with tweaking it to your liking.

I would also very much like to hear more from you based on some of the presets provided by bennevis and others here. Does the V-Piano have a digital output? It might be the easiest way to make recordings if your soundcard has a digital input.

I would like to hear a pure digital to digital recording from the V-Piano as I wonder if the so-called Roland sound has more to do with the same family of amplification and audio circuitry in their pianos than the actual modelling process.

Once again, congratulations and I hope you enjoy your piano for many years to come.

To everyone's replies:

I certainly do appreciate all of the kind comments regarding the recordings, as this is what I enjoy doing the most, and, that is...
to play.

Also, will be posting a few Christmas favorites, shortly.

Christmas tunes, at the V-Piano:

1) Silent Night / O Little Town of Bethlehem / O Come, O Come, Emmanuel

http://www.box.com/s/k7roebxvrxg3llimcok1

2) Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas / The Christmas Song

http://www.box.com/s/qeeo31d5d6qk4nv6zu3k

3) O Come, All Ye Faithful + Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee ("Ode to Joy" from Beethoven's Symphony No. 9) medley

This is an advanced concert arrangement, which highlights the resonant bass range of the V-Piano, using the "Triple Large" preset.

http://www.box.com/s/0rc55lvaikkau5xirm26

4) Christmas Time is Here, from "A Charlie Brown Christmas"

Everyone should know (or, become acquainted with) Vince Guaraldi's piece as it is a true jazz classic.

http://www.box.com/s/lfj365qqpols4ni1n1au

Hope everyone has a nice holiday season!

Hi PV,

I have been really enjoying both your playing and the sound of the V-Piano. Thanks for sharing with us,

Jonathan

Extra note:

Thought that I would continue adding new recordings into the original posts above, so that they are all in the same place for listening, etc.

Hi pv88, finally managed to hear your recordings - they are at very low level (at least as heard through the computer I'm using) but the piano sounds are similar to what I hear on my V-Piano, i.e. very life-like, and your playing is great.

Maybe you can try using your own customizations with more of your recordings, so people can hear what can be achieved.

Thanks for the great demos pv88. The bass notes sound fantastic, as usual. If they ever get the middle registers to sound as good, watch out! Even now, though, I find that the middle registers have an endearing quality, even though it doesn't sound all that authentic. Lovely playing as usual too!

Can the amount of hammer thud sound be varied on the V-Piano? If so, I'd be curious to hear some recordings with more thud - particularly in the middle registers.

The recording level is a bit low, yes. The easiest way around that for listeners is to use a player that allows the volume to be increased above 100%. I.e - a player that is able to apply gain to the digital audio. The equalizer in iTunes allows this. Another player that can do this is the VLC player. I'd rather the level be low and clean, though, than high with clipping.

Greg.

Yes, the bass is excellent.........

There is customization available for 'hammer' which gives the thud sound you mentioned. In fact, there's hardly anything that can't be changed in the piano sounds. Even pedal noise, for those that like the sound of them.....

I've added a setting for the new Yamaha CFX, as promised/threatened last month.

The CFX is the most exciting concert grand to have emerged in recent years, and its brilliant and colorful tone (in contrast to the CF-IIIS) is very distinctive: it could be a serious challenge to the Steinway D on the concert platform in years to come. It gives the pianist just as much variety of tone color as the Steinway, but with more brilliance and a bell-like clarity in the upper registers.

My customization is based on playing a well-prepared CFX in Yamaha's showroom, followed by 'fine-tuning' while listening to the first studio recording of the CFX on CD, HJ Lim's EMI recording of Beethoven Piano Sonatas (you can hear her play the CFX on her website www.hjlim.com). Incidentally, there's an impetuosity and a tigerish quality, of living life dangerously, in her playing, which is a refreshing contrast to so much staid and 'safe' Beethoven playing these days (which is not to say that I agree with everything she does), and the brilliant sound of the CFX suits her well.

bennevis,
maybe I missed that and it's written somewhere, but which preset did you use?

Oops, sorry, it was the V1 Concert.

Thanks bennevis, I will give it a try today and let you know what I think

Thank you again Bennevis, your wonderful ear has enhanced the V-piano like no other with these excellent custom sounds. This thread should have a sticky so new V-piano owners can take advantage as well and also come up with their own tweaks to those who have played some of the grand piano sounds you haven't.

It is to be noted that whether or not you are using closed headphones vs open headphones, a slight modification to the settings needs to take place. Bennevis uses the AKG K 271 MK II which are a closed design while I use the Sennheiser HD 598 open headphones.

For example while using the Bossendorfer setting Bennevis created, you want to be leaving the tuning and hammer settings to default on V1 Concert but every other setting Bennevis uses for the Bossendorfer stays the same while using open headphones. It is a small change, however every V-piano owner has to decide what they prefer after hearing it themselves. Furthermore there are plenty of open slots for customizing so I am creating two sets of Bennevis's piano's, one saved for open headphones and the other for closed as sometimes I do need to use closed ones.

Bennevis, your Yamaha CFX sound you adjusted is really good. It is my second favorite one to use Thanks I recommend every V-piano owner to give it a try. I do change the string resonance down to +30 instead of +50 and leave tuning and hammer to default as I am using open headphones. However all the other settings make it sound very close to a Yamaha. The soundboard on the Yamaha's have an after sound on the lower notes I cannot figure into the settings. I will keep trying and see if I can emulate it with different settings.

Also Bennevis, what Ambience setting do you use for most of the sounds? I use Hall 2 most of the time, and have the Ambience knob very slightly to the right of middle. Changing the ambience settings makes a huge difference to the overall sound as well.

Also, sorry it took me two months to get back to this very important thread. I will soon be in Summer vacation as I am a teacher, so I will have enough time to make an album of music from a combination of the Roland V-piano, a Yamaha S90, VL-plugin and a couple of the choir and string sounds from the Yamaha CLP990 Clavinova. I may add some vocals as well into the mix. It will be New Age style music for the most part similar to Yanni and Enya. I will be recording into a Zoom MRS1044CD which is in perfect condition and vocals into a blue snowball with ringer mic. All should be good enough to make an amateur album.

Do look forward to hearing some of your recordings as I happen to like New Age stuff as well, and, recently have been working on a new piece by Jon Schmidt titled "All of Me" and you can listen to him perform it, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fAZIQ-vpdw

Also, the sheet music is available:

http://www.jonschmidt.com/catalog/p...;osCsid=51fd865cc616c7e57b0ee0a47d466cec

As for headphones I have been using the Sennheiser HD-518's (open back ear pieces) which cost $130. In comparison with my $35 pair of Radio Shack headphones (closed ear pieces) the cheaper ones do far better at the V-Piano since they do not pick up the artificial midrange characteristics. As this is especially noticeable in the "Vintage Piano 2" (i.e., "Bosendorfer") presets. I just do not hear real acoustic-like "Bosendorfer" sounds at all, so what did Roland achieve by attempting to model this? Also, the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers with subwoofer sounds much improved over either of these two pairs of headphones. The speakers still do not mask these odd midrange sounds, however, there is a sharper and more defined presence to the piano sounds, making them somewhat less artificial/processed/electronic.

So, the most apparent flaws in the V that I can make note of would be this artificial midrange, from slightly above middle "C" to about two octaves higher, and, the wear of the keys. Waiting on the new key bed (with new part number) to arrive in about 8 weeks.

I have told you before that you really need to buy better headphones in order to hear the piano properly. what happened is you got used To the Way the V-piano sounded with your 35 radi shack headphones and now your brain thinks you like it better that way than the way it should sound. the headphones bennevis uses and the ones I always used are proffesional headphones for a reason. The same thing goes with computer speakers, they lack the range needed to hear the sound properly. I would highly recommend for you to give any proffesional studio quality headphone a try since you haven't heard the V-piano yet at its best.

What you are experiencing is the same phenomena people who moved from LPs to CD quality experienced. some people really like the sound which was scratchy at times better than pure clean digital sound from cd's. now in that case those people weren't wrong as neither are you for liking one particular sound over another. it may very well be true that if you do listen to higher-quality headphones you get the same results and end up going back to the original $35 RadioShack headphones. however I honestly would give a $200 or more headphones with professional quality specs a try before giving up all together on being able to hear the high quality sound the V-piano is capable of producing. honestly I do not hear anything wrong with the mid range as you have pointed out.

In regards to this artificial midrange it really does exist as some inherent component of the original piano sounds in the V, as no amount of tweaking the various onboard parameters seem to change this underlying "tone." I have spoken at length on this matter (with our other PW member "Essbrace") and I have come to the conclusion that while this is obviously something "in" the sound itself, it is not enough of an issue for me give up the V-Piano, as the artificial tone can be minimized to a greater degree in many of the silver presets, although not completely so.

The underlying artificial (modeled) "tone" is the culprit here as it cannot be changed or altered. Would like to eventually see another digital released that improves upon these modeled sounds/tones.

Might be interesting to see how the Viscount Physis Piano turns out - their claim is full modelling too but whether it will have the playability of the V remains to be seen - and it may not sound better either, who knows.

Yes... a possible contender for the V-Piano, perhaps?

Here is one of their demos, as it is quite intriguing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBit3c9OTkE

Competition is always a good thing.. Now let us use this thread and stay on topic which is for creating new sounds on the V-piano

Extra note:

Almost forgot to add (to the other post above) that the Physis Piano will contain a new version of the Italian "Fatar" action. There are others here that do not like the Fatar actions, as I had previously owned a Kurzweil Mark Pro 3i that had a Fatar action and it was not a keeper.

The Kurzweil also had some other issues, and, that has already been documented in my other posts, however, the action appeared to be rather sluggish in regards to key repetitions. It felt quite odd in regards to the bottoming out, almost as if it had spring-like resistance. Not a very responsive action, especially when doing scale work.

Perhaps the Physis Piano (which is not a Kurzweil) will have a better and improved action?

Aha, found this again!

(For TwoSnowflakes's benefit).

Just realized how much I've aged since this thread.....my AKG K271 MkII is now officially retired, and Grado SR325is has taken over the headphones hook.

I now am using the Sennheiser HD 518's which are a very good "open back" set and cost $130.

Sorry, I'm not following. What exactly have you found. I'm agog.

No need to be (agog, I mean). I've found the needle in the haystack *.

(* = an ancient thread I started when I was still young and unsullied, i.e. this thread. From the haystack that's PW's labyrinth.
** For some odd reason, this reminds me of that amazing Guillermo del Toro movie Pan's Labyrinth www.panslabyrinth.co.uk : I recommend it highly, if you haven't seen it. ).

Ahh, Bennevis, thanks for bumping. I had fun tonight playing around with this.

I am not sure how to save these settings in a new preset, but I'm sure I'll figure it out.

A real pleasure to play. I see the allure, though the true end result is that instead of converting me to a digital aficionado, it just makes me want to buy a better acoustic, haha.

After almost 12 hours playing with this thing, I really need to go to bed. It's 4am here!

Who in Canada got the V-Grand piano presets on the V-Piano and how? Was it a custom firmware?

I appreciate this thread and all bennevis has done in regards to making the V-Piano a better instrument. Us V-Piano owners have to stick together.

I agree as the V-Piano has the best resonance and decay of any digital currently available with the largest number of changeable parameters to work with.

As it's now 10.15 am in sunny England (yes, the sun does come out occasionally here - especially when it's Wimbledon ladies finals ), it must be 11.15 am where you are, and no doubt already practicing on the V.

To save your settings, just press the 'Write' button. Then you have to rename your new setting by pressing F2, after which you use the 'Value' dial to scroll through numbers, symbols and letters to get the character you want, and keep repeating for each character until you've got the complete new name. Then press the 'Value' dial, and finally, F4 to 'Execute'.

Your new setting will come after the last factory preset (which is no.28), when you scroll through. You can also customize the V to use your new setting as the default piano sound - i.e. the one that appears on the screen when you switch it on. I've customized mine to use "Bösendorfer' as my default sound.

Aha! Thanks. You were right, I was already practicing! Definitely enjoyable. I can say I like pretending I have a gigantic concert grand! The bass is so resonant and clear! I changed the keyboard weight to "very heavy" so I don't end up with too light of a touch, but my own grand, not being a Bosendorfer, has a certain amount of key friction that makes it harder to play extremely slowly/softly than the v-piano is set to do. At some of the key velocity I'm using, my piano would not sound at all, but here, as long as I bottom out the key at all, I get a sound. So I probably ought to figure out how to change that other than the "very heavy" setting, if it's possible, so I don't come home and find my pp dynamics are below the threshhold of my piano.

Try altering the 'Sound Lift' in the Tone Parameter section.

Decreasing it means you have to hit harder to get an increase in dynamic level, making you work harder, and making the keyboard feel heavier.

"As we know, the Roland V-Piano is the only DP that uses modelling technology which means that its sound is generated from scratch, not sampled from existing pianos."

In our studio we still use an old Roland V-Piano and it is working quite well for our needs!

Mr. Christensen, would you still buy the V-Piano today compared to the VPC1 + Pianoteq or some other digital piano of your fancy?

Wow- I learned a lot reading through this, thank you all.

I'm bumping this very useful thread for all V-Piano owners so they may get out of it as much joy as I have utilizing bennevis's user made custom voices. A labor of love and one that takes a great ear, as well as a lot of patience.

Great. I'm glad this thread has the opportunity for more life (although, I have only just begun to read through it, and am currently focusing on the V-Piano manual). I will be moving to an apartment soon, and therefore have to leave my beloved Boston baby grand behind. In it's place, I've just acquired my first digital setup:

V-Piano & KS-V8 stand
Adam A7X speakers
Senn HD650 headphones
Pillow-Top adjustable bench
.
.
.
I also made an extra-wide music rack for it out of clear acrylic that holds the sheet music the same height and distance as those of my acoustic (see link below)

The last item I need is a nice cover. Any suggestions welcome.

I searched around for the best deal I could find, and ended up getting everything for 4,300 USD shipped. Maybe it wasn't the best deal ever known to mankind; but, I am satisfied, and can't wait to begin exploring with this equipment.


https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1_kPQf0wr71a6W2NeukSCsjoI1ZIRURXv07CXtlTlVCM/edit?usp=sharing

AEM

I'd love to hear from other V-Piano owners regarding recording. Specifically, I'd like to know how much of a difference there typically is between the sound that is heard by the player during playing (assuming high quality headphones/speakers) versus the sound that is later played back from a recording (using the same high quality headphones/speakers). I intend to record using Cubase and a Presonus Firebox interface. My fear, I guess, is that I will end up falling in love with a couple of presets/setups that sound great during actual playing only to find out that I cannot capture these same sounds faithfully during recording. By extension, I'm afraid that every preset I have would therefore need to be paired with a tweaked version of this preset that would be used solely while recording. As someone who is new to digital pianos, I'm really not sure what to expect.

Part of this concern comes from a few bits I have read in this thread, where one or two other V-Piano owners were not able to faithfully capture what they heard while playing. Another part comes from my experience recording on my acoustic piano. I find that, on the acoustic piano, I do in fact have to change my playing style (touch, pedaling, ...) a bit to produce recordings that come out the way I'd like, even when that same playing style does not always produce what I'd consider ideal sounds to my naked ear while performing. I was hoping that a digital piano might allow me to avoid this disparity a bit, since the signal chain would not involve microphones (of course, it does involve headphones/speakers, on the other hand).

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

AEM

Someone mentioned earlier that the midrange, around middle C, was the most troublesome sound. This seems to be an area that many sample libraries and stage pianos also have trouble with. Any speculation on why the important area around middle C causes problems? (The Kawai keyboards, to my ear, fare a little better in the midrange, but I rarely get to hear them.)

Phasing because of mic placement? The missing sense of being close to the piano? I understand these, but don't understand why libraries and other emulations still have problems.

Well, it looks like this thread hasn't been generating much interest anymore. For anyone who reads it, though, I put together a Google Document tabulating all of the tone pre-sets that Bennevis came up with. I did change some of the settings to be what I consider more compatible with my HD650 closed headhphones, however. Here is the link (feel free to add your own pre-sets; but, please leave the originals the way they are):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T9QKHVTpgZ0Jd7WGzPhncYukCJgmmm-QUzcy3k9swNM/edit?usp=sharing

Also, not to digress from the topic of this thread, but here are my two cents about the V-Piano, relative to the Boston baby grand that I've been playing on every day for the last 5 years. There are really only a few main points that stand out to me.

1) The inertia of the V-Piano keys is less than that of my Boston. Yes, the V-Piano allows for adjustments to the key touch in a few different ways; but, due to the physical mass of the keys and related mechanism, the keys are easier to push down, in general. I do not see this as a setback to developing strength or other factors that might prevent an easy transition to a typical acoustic grand, though.

2) The overall tone of the V-Piano, regardless of the different tweaks that can be made, is definitely more metallic/clinical/flat than the tone of my Boston. Tweaking the tone and/or other settings will not allow for the richness/fullness of a typical acoustic piano. That said, I can easily live with this, but will likely continue to do recordings on the Boston. I was very much hoping that I could get even better recordings, all factors considered, with the V-Piano; but, regardless of the virtual pianos that I have built, I do not think that the recordings will come out as nice sounding as those I can get from my Boston and mics (this has yet to be proven, though).

3) The dynamics of the V-Piano are awesome. Nonetheless, I still think that they are not quite as good as those of my Boston, but this, I am sure, is partly a bias coming from having played the Boston for so much longer.

4) Going back and forth between the V-Piano and the Boston is very easy to do. I am very satisfied with the V-Piano serving as an excellent "trainer" for an acoustic grand piano.

5) The number of tweaks and the realism of playing the V-Piano are awesome. For example, the pedals work very well, and it is great to be able to adjust them (the damper noise, the degree of softness, half-pedaling, ...).

Anyway, again, feel free to add your own pre-sets to the table I provided in the above link.

Thanks for tabulating all those settings so clearly. Mine was on several bits of handwritten paper, which have long disappeared into the ether.....

I must admit that I don't play around with changing the settings anymore - I just use one setting all the time now, based on the Bösendorfer. That's because for the past three years, I've set myself the task of learning new pieces every month, and playing them from memory in a monthly recital for colleagues on an ancient C. Bechstein six-foot grand, so all my practice time on my V goes towards that.

Nothing I can do on my V will get it anywhere near the action of that old grand, because it has a very light and shallow action which is probably quite usual for pianos of that era (c1900) - it still takes me a minute or two of warming up on it to get used to its action every time I play it. I haven't tried to get a sound on my V that resembles it either, though I probably could fairly easily.

Saying that, last week I played on a small (fairly new) acoustic upright in a lecture theatre - its action was even lighter than that of the Bechstein, and very mushy at the key bottom (the Bechstein bottoms out harder than the V). Just as well I'm used to coping with almost anything I get thrown at.....

Thanks a lot for the patches, and also @bennevis for tabulating those.

Not trying to be too much off-topic, but I wonder what Roland's plan is for the V-Piano. I would have expected many more updates considering the premium product – then again, it's surely a niche and they might have found it "complete" enough.

Soundwise, I find myself always coming back to the V-Piano whenever I played a (software-based) new sampled one. I admit I never tried a modelling-based VST yet, but to my ears, all the sample pianos I tried sound dull and lifeless when compared to the V-Piano. Then again, I did not have a chance to check out some of the newer high-priced offerings, still e.g. the ones shipped in the Nord Piano 2 or the new ones in Komplete 10 are not much of a match to the V-Piano.

Thanks very much AEMontoya for creating that file and to bennevis for creating this information. The comparisons between the V-Piano and a "real" acoustic are interesting to read.

In this sub-forum, the V-Piano seems lauded for its responsiveness, while the Yamaha N3 is lauded for its use of a "real" piano keyboard. All the other digital pianos seem to have their various attributes compared to a general sense of "acoustic piano" and criticized for not measuring up. I seem to get into trouble here (not in this thread...) if I say that digital pianos today are fine as they are, as well as saying that acoustic pianos and digital pianos are not the same thing ultimately (maybe some day the technology will fully be there, but trying to achieve this does seem to be the aim of manufacturers based on their ad copy, and the expectation of at least much of the population of this sub-forum based on much of the thread content).

However, such discussion among V-Piano/Grand owners seems reasoned and makes more sense than much of the stuff I have been reading here. The comparative points that AEMontoya makes in his OP directly between his acoustic and his V-Piano, indicate to me that the items that I consider important to allow me to move rather easily between my V-Grand and an acoustic instrument, seem to be validated in his post. I appreciate that. I don't expect the V-Piano/Grand to be an acoustic instrument, but being able to practice on an instrument that prepares me for playing either an acoustic or another digital piano seems right to me, and that is apparently the V-Piano/Grand and largely the reason I chose it.

When I listen to pv-88's recordings of his V-Piano, it certainly does sound convincing to me. He plays very well, and maybe that is a large part of it, but I really think the V-Piano in his recordings actually sounds quite good.

As for updates, has anybody experienced problems with the firmware we all now have? I have not had ANY problems at all with my V-Grand, though I realize that its firmware is different enough from the V-Piano that I can't load V-Piano firmware and I assume that a V-Piano can't load V-Grand firmware without causing serious problems according to Roland. I don't know whether Roland intends to add new models to their V-Piano/Grand line or if they figure leave well enough alone. From what Jay has described in the thread on Roland's newest offerings, it sounds as if these are a sort of stripped down version of the V-Piano, with more consumer-friendly means of adjusting various parameters. I did not get the sense that there is a startlingly new modelling engine in these new products, but I could be wrong.

Tony

There's only been one set of updates for the original V-Piano (2009), which added four new preset sounds to the existing 24. Those who bought the V from 2011 onwards will already have them pre-installed.

And as far as I know, there's never been any such updates for the Grand, which has 30 preset sounds as standard (two more than the V-Piano). So, there's nothing to load on your Grand.

As it stands, the V-Piano still has much more tweakability (and more preset piano sounds) than the new Rolands. But I haven't seen the latter yet, so I don't know if their sounds are straight out of the V.

Have you tried copying the tuning of your Boston? My former teacher had great success enriching the V Piano by copying the tuning of his C Bechstein after it had been freshly tuned. It was like a quantum leap forward in terms of realism.

You can get apps for android or ipad that allow you to determine the exact frequency of every note on an acoustic piano tuned to your taste and just input those frequencies into the V.

All DPs are to a lesser or greater extent sound clinical (I used the word sterile when I was describing my disappointment with the crop while trying to choose my first DP) out of the box but the majestic V is a class apart and with less clinical tuning, an even greater joy to play.

I do hope the new series of Rolands are every bit as musical.

@Tony,

Glad to hear you like the recordings as the V-Piano has plenty to offer in regards to the wide dynamic range for the player.

Also, I do remember our fellow member (i.e., EssBrace) saying he thought the two additional presets that were added to the V-Grand were an improvement sound wise over the original V-Piano presets:

Grand
001 V-Concert Grand
Vintage
A concert grand piano with a sound having sparkling clarity.
Grand
002 V-Concert Mellow
Vintage
A concert grand piano with a mellow resonance.

I had previously asked Roland if they would consider adding these two presets above to the V-Piano and told me it was not possible since someone at Roland was not able to load them into the V-Piano.

It would be very interesting to hear these two main presets on the V-Grand (that you own) as I would be curious to know if these presets are an improvement over the perceived issue of the synthetic mid-range sounds in the V-Piano?

Not that this matters as I am happy enough with the V-Piano as it is even though I do think that the modeling could be improved upon.

All of the presets can be tweaked (thanks to bennevis) and the "Silver Strings" sounds are excellent, also:

https://app.box.com/s/yrovy7fjjejsnah2humg

https://app.box.com/s/s24ks1yqhghnhesc1nzr
[16 seconds silence prior to sound above]

https://app.box.com/s/32orpz5un38176nsrlyx


I do believe this best represents what the V-Piano is capable of -- even with the default preset sounds.

Having extended "decay time" is a definite plus!

Once again, excellent playing! To me, these sound convincing.

I would think that anybody listening to these recordings of yours would be thinking that if s/he had a digital piano that sounded like that, that person would be very satisfied. I am learning to play, so it will be quite some time before I can demonstrate my V-Grand's capabilities like you can. However, I feel very secure in knowing that my DP has the capability to deliver (eventually) a worthwhile performance as payback for the hours I am putting in. Listening to your recordings, I know that I won't be looking around for something better any time soon, that's for certain.

I am finding that the presets you mentioned sound very good through the speaker system, but for some reason I prefer the "Vertical" preset through headphones. Maybe in some sense those that you listed are a bit "too big" in the headphones. They sound fine, but it seems easier to hear what I am doing somehow with the somewhat smaller sound of the Vertical preset. Maybe different headphones would change that, I will have to experiment.

I have some midi files that would certainly allow you to hear what you are looking for in the midrange. I have three weeks left on my contract job and then I will have lots of time to figure out ow to best record these for you.

I do remember when Roland came out with the upgrade firmware for the V-Piano. They made it very clear that loading this code into the V-Grand would cause it to cease functioning, so there is definitely some incompatibilities between the two models. I doubt the actual hardware is much different in terms of chipsets, but it is possible that the memory is mapped/sized differently, or registers are laid out differently, or something along those lines.

In the mean time, as I get some time here and there, I will lurk in the threads about modelling and the new Roland DPs, but will otherwise stay out of it to avoid any more hassles.

Thanks,

Tony

Now THIS sounds interesting. I think I mentioned in another thread that if DPs are taking over a market share, then a new potential market for piano tuners might be to tweak DPs to get maximum performance from them. I would consider hiring somebody to do what you are suggesting rather than putting in the time and effort myself. So this is not "tongue in cheek", but instead a very real possibility for all those DPs whose owners really don't want to dig into the depths of their instruments.

Tony

I wanted to say thank you to bennevis and everyone else who participated in this sharing of new sounds that can be created so easily on the V-Piano. I have a lot of catching up to do and hopefully I can contribute to this in some way in the near future.