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New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos

Posted By: Deffie

New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 01:33 PM

Thought I'd start a new thread now that they've been announced.

English brochure: http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/catalogue/MP-e.pdf

Release dates (in Japan at least) appear to be 11-5-2010 for the MP6 and 12-3-2010 for the MP10:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/mp6/?p=ep_top
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/mp10/?p=ep_top

Update:
MP6 page in English: http://www.kawai.de/mp6_en.htm
MP6 manual in English: http://www.kawai.de/service/mp6_e.pdf
MP6 audio demos: http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp6_audio.html

MP10 manual in English: http://www.kawai.de/service/mp10_e.pdf
MP10 audio demos: http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 01:42 PM

MP10/MP6 news release (in Japanese):

http://www.kawai.co.jp/press/2010/0908-2.asp

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 01:49 PM

Heh, that makes for a rather amusing Google Translation

Large pictures:
MP6: http://www.kawai.co.jp/info/material/photo/2010/20100908-2-2L.jpg
MP10: http://www.kawai.co.jp/info/material/photo/2010/20100908-2-1L.jpg

Aaron
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 01:50 PM

Â¥ 273,000
Â¥ 178.500

How much in Euro?
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 01:52 PM

My Japanese translation skills are also a bit rusty, as you can see: whistle

MP10: Total of 27 tones (UPHI)

Piano (9), E. Piano (7), Krabi (2)
Strings (3), Pad (3), vibraphone,
Harpsichord, choir


MP6: Total of 256 tones (PHI)

Piano (28), Harpsichord (4),
E. Piano (20), Krabi (4), Mallett (8)
De Rover (32), organ (28)
Accordion (4) Strings (20)
Vocal (12) Brass (32)
Pads and synth (32), bass (12)
Guitar (16), drum kit (4)


Would love to see the actual sound lists from the user manual, though! cool
Posted By: arley

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:00 PM

Obert, according to xe.com, 273000 yen = 2557 euro = $3250 USD

178500 yen = 1671 euro = $2126 USD

Now, of course that's just a mechanical calculation on today's exchange rate. I don't know what the pricing will be in each individual country; I'm sure the products will cost relatively more in some locales and relatively less in others.
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:05 PM

Yes, it would be interesting to know the official prices of other known models, just for a simply comparison.

CA93, for instance, is about 2.700 euro here in Italy.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:08 PM

More importantly, both new ones are about 10,000 yen (about $120) more than the boards that they are replacing.

So, should be similarly priced to the MP5 and MP8II hopefully.

MP5: 168,000
MP6: 178,500
MP8II: 262,500
MP10: 273,000

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Would love to see the actual sound lists from the user manual, though! cool


The sound names aren't terribly imaginative, I'm afraid.
However, nor do they mean a great deal - many of the acoustic and electric piano sounds use new samples not found in previous Kawai instruments (yes, including the CA93...), so it's not really possible to draw direct comparisons.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:26 PM

The brochure's a nice piece of work. Lots of pertinent information but not too technical and written in language a musician will relate to. I wonder whose work this was? wink
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:30 PM

James, can you explain in layman's language what the difference will be between playing a UPHI-equipped piano and a PHI piano? In other words what will be lost in the MP6 compared to the MP10?

Thanks.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
...many of the acoustic and electric piano sounds use new samples not found in previous Kawai instruments...

That's quite mysterious, especially for the acoustic piano sounds (UPHI); let's wait and see! wink
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:36 PM

voxpops, UPHI requires twice the amount of sample memory as PHI - it's a more detailed and therefore more expressive sound.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:44 PM

I am really looking forward to trying the MP6. Why not the MP10? Simply too heavy for an aging, gigging musician. Which is a shame. And while I'm sure that the MP6 will be a fine instrument, I have a question/complaint/plea that is addressed to Kawai, Roland, Yamaha: why do you feel it necessary to dumb down the lighter-weight models in your range?

Obviously, the lighter, plastic action has to be accepted as part of the deal, but how much does the better software weigh? Why should those of us who need a more portable model have to put up with an inferior engine? I know it's all down to marketing techniques, but these are stage pianos; surely the powers that be know that there are plenty of players who will pay a premium for the best electronics but who cannot manage the extra weight.

That said, I really hope that these two new entrants blow the CP range out of the water.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
voxpops, UPHI requires twice the amount of sample memory as PHI - it's a more detailed and therefore more expressive sound.

Cheers,
James
x


My point (in my last post) precisely. So, James, let's have an MP6II with the UPHI. I don't want to sacrifice 50% of the sound detail to save my back!
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 03:05 PM

So James, now that they're announced is there any chance we can see those manuals you've been working on?

Aaron
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I am really looking forward to trying the MP6. Why not the MP10? Simply too heavy for an aging, gigging musician. Which is a shame. And while I'm sure that the MP6 will be a fine instrument, I have a question/complaint/plea that is addressed to Kawai, Roland, Yamaha: why do you feel it necessary to dumb down the lighter-weight models in your range?

Obviously, the lighter, plastic action has to be accepted as part of the deal, but how much does the better software weigh? Why should those of us who need a more portable model have to put up with an inferior engine? I know it's all down to marketing techniques, but these are stage pianos; surely the powers that be know that there are plenty of players who will pay a premium for the best electronics but who cannot manage the extra weight.

That said, I really hope that these two new entrants blow the CP range out of the water.


+1
Posted By: Suryaman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 05:18 PM

I'm GASing like crazy!

The new MP10 is gorgeous! I suppose the depth is bigger then MP8 because of the RM3 action.

It's great the pitch bend and mod wheel placement, good job Kawai!

For me it would be a piano to keep at home for studying, so no problem for weight, but the fact it is less wide than MP8 really helps.

I'm looking forward to try it!
Posted By: ChrisA

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
James, can you explain in layman's language what the difference will be between playing a UPHI-equipped piano and a PHI piano? In other words what will be lost in the MP6 compared to the MP10?

Thanks.


My understanding is UPHI is "ultra progressive" while PHI is just "progressive". I think this means the UPHI has more velocity sample layers. I think Kawai uses the term "progressive" to mean what most of us call "velocity layers"

If I'm right then you should hear a more realistic change in tone as you move from pp velocity to ff.

BTW what will the marketing people have to come up with next? What's after "ultra". Maybe in 10 years Kawai will have "WSMUHI" and "APUHI" so people will have to ask if "Way Super Mega Ultra HI" is better or worse than "Advanced Premium Ultra HI" Why can't they just come out and say what it really is?
Posted By: arley

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 06:02 PM

Now, let the speculation begin as to where the price points are for these two items.

The MP5 lists for $1495 but was available online for around $1100; the MP8ii lists for $2495 but was available online for around $1900...

I would imagine that Kawai would price the MP6/MP10 a bit higher, if for no other reason than to keep everyone who bought an MP5 or MP8ii last month, from kicking themselves.

It does seem that they did a good job of allowing the stocks of old instruments to be cleared before introducing the new stuff. However, if there is a retailer out there with a stack of MP5's or MP8ii's that they want to sell at a huge discount, I sure would be interested. (Either of those two instruments is far superior to my talents. Me getting an MP10 would be like Mr. Magoo getting a Maserati.)
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 06:07 PM

I completely agree with the issue of stripping down the sound quality in lower priced products. The discussion has been on this forum more often. Someone repeatedly compared it to the SN boards found in almost ALL current Roland products -> they all offer the same basic SN piano sound, but differ in amount of sounds, tweak-ability and hardware features.

I'm almost 100% sure that the electronics and software required to enable the same basic sound quality over the whole range of products is not the ultimate "cost issue" once it has been developed. It's purely marketing trick and I'm sure people really would love to have the choice in spending more on extra sounds and more and better hardware on high-end products , but don't want to sacrifice the quality of the few basic sounds that are left on the lower priced products when they decide that these products better fit their needs. Indeed in terms of weight and/or features they really need and others they can do without.

It's fully in line with how current marketing departments work in all product ranges these days and no surprise, but nevertheless a disappointment that Kawai hasn't got the will to be different in this respect.

31kg is a lot to carry around, so it's understandable that a striped down version in hardware (but please not in sound quality) is a logical choice for a lot of people. If Kawai doesn't offer that, than the competition may have very interesting alternatives and they simply might loose a potential customer. Please manufacturers think twice; someone who wants all the bells and whistles buys the top-end machine anyway, but others might be pushed away !
Posted By: KHen

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 06:40 PM

I really like hows it says kawai in front of the hands on the mp10 just like it would on a grand piano.

Originally Posted by arley
It does seem that they did a good job of allowing the stocks of old instruments to be cleared before introducing the new stuff. However, if there is a retailer out there with a stack of MP5's or MP8ii's that they want to sell at a huge discount, I sure would be interested.


Same here.

Posted By: Suryaman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 07:00 PM

Just looking at the specs and the pictures, I can see that Kawai really listens to customer needs and complains.

Really good job Kawai!
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisA
BTW what will the marketing people have to come up with next? What's after "ultra". Maybe in 10 years Kawai will have "WSMUHI" and "APUHI" so people will have to ask if "Way Super Mega Ultra HI" is better or worse than "Advanced Premium Ultra HI" Why can't they just come out and say what it really is?

At least Yamaha tells you how many layers a particular sample set has. Not sure why Kawai is playing this so close to their chest.

If they keep on with the "Harmonic Imaging" terminology they'll soon wear out the English language. I personally can't take their sampling technology seriously until they introduce "Super Tremendous Ultra Progressive Imaging Design" (STUPID).
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 07:13 PM

To QBert; € 2700 for the CA-93 in Italy ?! That's cheap (€ 3299 over here); if they introduce the MP10 with a similar price difference in Italy, I might come over and buy it over there, add a nice vacation and still keep some money in my pocket ;-)

(If my car and back can cary the extra weight that is...still oemphf ; have to get used to that idea before I can persuade myself to go for the MP10).
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 08:41 PM

What about "Super Harmonic Imaging Technology"?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 09:36 PM

Aaron, while the Kawai Japan website hosts brochure PDFs on this page, there currently isn't a natural 'home' for the owner's manuals. I'm a little reluctant to start uploading one or two files at a random URL, but will try to find a better solution in the near-ish future.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
What about "Super Harmonic Imaging Technology"?

Ha! Crap, why didn't I think of that?
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 10:50 PM

James,

No worries, I'm just eager for more information smile I'm sure you'll let us know when they're available.

Now I just need to find a dealer with a CA63/93 so that I can see how I like the RM3 action...

Aaron
Posted By: ChrisA

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/08/10 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by dewster

If they keep on with the "Harmonic Imaging" terminology they'll soon wear out the English language.....




I think you'd enjoy the British system for grading technical rock climbs. Yes this is 100% serious, in common usage and not a joke. Only brits (or maybe piano marketing execs) could invent this:
The British System

Not that Americans are smarter, the common US system is almost as bad. They started using decimal points like 5.6, 5.7,... and then as people could climb routes harder than 5.9 they added 5.10. (not to be confused with 5.1 which would be so easy to even bother with) and then had to add a 5.11 which is a full step, not a tenth, above 5.10.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 12:05 AM

Honestly chaps, I wouldn't get so hung-up on the Harmonic Imaging naming (although I'd be lying if I said that EssBrace's post didn't raise a smile...) - it's just a means to differentiate between the entry-level, mid-range, and premium piano sound technologies.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Zinfan

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 01:52 AM

It looks like the MP-6 does not have XLR outputs like the CP-5 and RX-700G do. I'm not using the ones on my SV-1 73 but it seems like a standard feature on pianos in this price range? I have to admit I'm not up on the advantages/disadvantages of XLR vs 1/4" outputs. I see the MP-10 appears to have the XLR fittings.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 02:03 AM

The MP10 features XLRs, the MP6 does not.

This specification difference has existed since the MP8/MP4, and was the same with MP8II/MP5.

The MP6 will compete with the Yamaha CP50 and RD300 - neither of which feature XLR connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Zinfan

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 02:18 AM

My apologies James, I thought the MP-6 was a CP-5/RX-700 challanger. I see I need to study up on the Kawai line up a bit more. I will say I love the location of the pitch wheels and the overall look of both units.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 02:32 AM

If the MP5 and MP8II are any indicators then MP6 will probably be around $1200 and MP10 around $2000. So while the MP10 is in a similar-ish price range to the CP-5 and RD-700, the MP6 isn't really (I still find it pretty amazing how well-spec'd the MP5 and now MP6 are for the price).

Aaron
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Honestly chaps, I wouldn't get so hung-up on the Harmonic Imaging naming (although I'd be lying if I said that EssBrace's post didn't raise a smile...) - it's just a means to differentiate between the entry-level, mid-range, and premium piano sound technologies.

James, I think you are blaming the victim just a little. Is it our fault for wanting specific, meaningful, and relevant info on the very technical and rather expensive musical products that we might be purchasing?
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 03:53 AM

It's nice they let us know about it a bit early.

I'll have to wait to see it, play it, and listen to it (and read the manual)--- and all that could take awhile.

BTW, MP8ii didn't list at two grand US when it was new; it was closer to $3500.

I wonder if MP10 (and the 6) may have add-on modules eventually to boost up the internal sound capability...?
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 04:15 AM

While I'd certainly believe that the MP8II started off higher than it is now, the only info that I can find is an MSRP of $2500 (and my perhaps misguided understanding is that MSRP usually stays the same and if anything retailers drop their prices over time).

Either way, the MSRP in yen is about $120 more for the MP6 and MP10 compared to their previous models, so for the time being I'll keep hoping the MP10 will be about $2000 smile

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 04:35 AM

dewster, I don't believe there are any victims here - the customer is ultimately free to choose whether or not they decided to purchase an instrument.

Of course, I can fully appreciate that technically-oriented individuals - such as yourselves - wish to know as much as possible about the instruments they're considering. It's only natural - I was the same when shopping for my new bike.

That's why I am an active member of this forum. I like to think I do a pretty good job of providing meaningful, relevant information, while answering specific questions to a reasonably technical level. Of course, there will often be times when company policy dictates that I cannot or should not answer questions related to proprietary technologies such as Harmonic Imaging. However, for the most part I will endeavour to provide as much information as possible - that's pretty much the best I can do.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 07:50 AM

Hi James, then a non-technical question; I did email Kawai Europe for details about price and release (delivery-) dates, but as usual no response, so perhaps you have a clue ? On the Japan site there are the Yen factory prices and I assume release dates (somewhere near the end of 2010). But I don't know if that's reliable information for the distribution in Europe.

Thanks, J
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
Hi James, then a non-technical question; I did email Kawai Europe for details about price and release (delivery-) dates, but as usual no response, so perhaps you have a clue ? On the Japan site there are the Yen factory prices and I assume release dates (somewhere near the end of 2010). But I don't know if that's reliable information for the distribution in Europe.

Thanks, J


Relieved but also very disappointed to see I am not the only one who never gets answers to questions or even the courtesy of acknowledging receipt of questions posed to Kawai Europe (i.e. the German distributor).
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 08:13 AM

My frustration as well; have tried sometime before. Wasn't surprised to get no answer at all, or only after many weeks; they must be on holiday a lot...

Not important I guess; I only want to spend some money on their products ;-)
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 08:34 AM

I cannot relate to that, because so far, after having forwarded many inquiries, I have always received a timely and to-the-point answer from Michael Kunz and others at Kawai Europe. thumb

By the way, James still is my only stronghold at Kawai Japan...

Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 09:04 AM

Perhaps you have another email address , instead of the standard website form ?
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 09:55 AM

I too got very helpful answers from Kawai Sales in the UK when contacting them directly.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 09:55 AM

I must make a point to have a look at the MP10 it seems very interesting.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
Perhaps you have another email address , instead of the standard website form ?

Just like I do for discussing some things in private with Kawai James, I send them a PM in either English or German at the Kawai Forum:

http://www.razyboard.com/system/user_kawai.html
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 05:30 PM

A bit of new information on the Kawai forums:

In German or Google Translated

Aaron
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 06:53 PM

James, can you possibly quickly summarize the changes from the MP5 to the MP6?
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
A bit of new information on the Kawai forums:

In German or Google Translated

Aaron

It really looks like the MP10 is the way to go if you're serious about the quality of both your acoustic and EP sounds. I shall have to wait for MP10-lite!

James, hopefully you can confirm what Google has translated. It seems to be saying that only the MP10 has the better Rhodes/Wurli/Clav sounds. Is that a correct reading of it?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 08:37 PM

I think most of the details are out in the open now; delivery of MP10 earliest in december, price a bit above current MP prices.

For me personally I'm very undecided on the whole thing. I really, really like the design , keys, build-quality and probably the sound of the MP10, but for a 'portable' piano it's simply just way too heavy for me (the MP8 was that too - that's why I never bought one). It will kill me. I think it's only meant for studio work and/or artists with a army of private Roadies.

The MP6 on the other hand lacks a few features that I really want and that the MP10 does have (better sound quality, audio-input, greater control over internal and external zones to name a few). If the keybed of the MP6 is OK I can live without the wood, if that saves me some Kg's, but I don't want to lose the other features.

If (if...if ....if) there only was a lightweight version of the MP10 (same features, less weight because of the use of lighter material and the MP6 keybed). I know you can never satisfy everyone and every individual will have his own ultimate dream-keyboard in mind, but after waiting so long I'm only more in the dark about what to decide as before the release. Even competition (e.g. RD700NX, FP7F ) becomes an option again. How strange things can go...
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
The MP6 on the other hand lacks a few features that I really want and that the MP10 does have (better sound quality, audio-input, greater control over internal and external zones to name a few). If the keybed of the MP6 is OK I can live without the wood, if that saves me some Kg's, but I don't want to lose the other features.

If (if...if ....if) there only was a lightweight version of the MP10 (same features, less weight because of the use of lighter material and the MP6 keybed). I know you can never satisfy everyone and every individual will have his own ultimate dream-keyboard in mind, but after waiting so long I'm only more in the dark about what to decide as before the release. Even competition (e.g. RD700NX, FP7F ) becomes an option again. How strange things can go...


I'm in total agreement. I think the pressure will build for Kawai to do exactly that. I believe (although I stand to be corrected) that between the MP5 and MP8II there was no difference in the sound engine. This differentiation between the MP6 and MP10 seems to be more about competing on Yamaha's CP turf than fulfilling the real-world demand for a lightweight, top-quality board. The Korg SV-1 comes close, but is lacking in the refinement department (audible velocity layers etc.)
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 10:10 PM

"...but for a 'portable' piano it's simply just way too heavy for me (the MP8 was that too - that's why I never bought one). It will kill me. I think it's only meant for studio work and/or artists with a army of private Roadies..."

MP8 is quite easy to move, if you have a second person to help. I have spine troubles, and I was still able to move it by myself (just from the shipping box to the stand), no death involved (not so far). Protected in a beer-cooler style case and using a wheeled cart, it would not be so hard.

Anyway, you don't need an army of roadies--- one, part-time, is enough.

I guard my back carefully, so I understand what you're saying--- it's a lot easier to get trouble than it is to get rid of it. The lighter instrument is enough to injure the spine if it's lifted the wrong way.

Which reminds me: how's the bike injury coming along, James? I hope you're healing up rapidly. Thanks for the sneak peaks at the new keyboards... and for being present on the forum to answer questions and such. It's great for us end-users and also really good for Kawai. Tell your boss I said so.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 10:21 PM

I hate to further muddy the waters, but:

1. Do these new pianos have 88 note sampling?

2. I wonder how an ES6 would sound, compared to these upcoming pianos? Are the new stage pianos going to sound better than the most recent state of the art from Kawai? (I do love the sound of the ES3 and ES6.) But of course we can't know until we hear these upcoming pianos. So we're still left wanting more.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/09/10 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
James, can you possibly quickly summarize the changes from the MP5 to the MP6?


I am not James, but looking at the brochure and comparing to my MP5, this is my guess:

- Improved action: MP5 has Advanced Hammer Action-IV E. MP6 has Responsive Hammer Action with Ivory touch and let-off.

- Improved sounds: MP5 has Harmonic Imaging. MP6 has Progressive Harmonic Imaging. I guess this just means that MP6 has more memory for sounds and includes more layers.

- MP6 adds a tonewheel organ simulator (how the 9 drawbars are moved? I guess faders is the best choice) and an amp simulator.

- MP6 adds USB connectivity and MP3 record and playback.

- Almost forgot that MP6 adds drum patterns.

I don't care for the fourth addition as I have an small mixer table and can record easily to the computer. Better sound is always welcomed, but you can always use external instruments.... but the new action and the organ simulator seem very, very sweet.

MP6 is clearly an evolution of MP5. Is the keyboard I had bought instead of the MP5 if it had been launched six months ago.

But MP10 seems to be a very different beast compared to MP8-II. It is not just an evolution. I am looking forward to see the reviews.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/10/10 04:16 AM

Chaps,

Quite a handful of questions there, thank you. I'll try to respond to them all shortly, however for the time being I'm rather busy preparing brochure translations.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that kurtie has pretty much nailed most of the MP6 improvements, but I'll post again with an extended list later.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/10/10 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
I hate to further muddy the waters, but:

1. Do these new pianos have 88 note sampling?

2. I wonder how an ES6 would sound, compared to these upcoming pianos? Are the new stage pianos going to sound better than the most recent state of the art from Kawai? (I do love the sound of the ES3 and ES6.) But of course we can't know until we hear these upcoming pianos. So we're still left wanting more.


Obviously I can't officially answer for Kawai, but from my understanding:

1. All of Kawai's new pianos have full (or very close to at least) 88 note sampling. I can't think of any reason why these would be any different.

2. From the terminology the MP6 should sound the same as the ES6 for APs at least. The MP10 will probably be at least as good as the CA63/93.

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/11/10 02:30 AM

Okay, Saturday morning, cup of tea... here we go:

@JFP, I understand that Kawai Europe changed the way customer queries are handled a few months ago. I don't know quite know why you did not receive a response from to your query, however I encourage you to contact Kawai Europe once again.

@anotherscott, kurtie has already posted a pretty comprehensive list of changes. I'm not at my office PC today, so am unable to post the usual comparison table, however here is a brief overview of the new MP6 features:

- New RH action with let-off and Ivory Touch
- New PHA acoustic piano and electric piano sounds
- New tonewheel organ simulator
- New amp simulator
- Improved EFX
- USB audio (MP3/WAV/SMF record and playback)
- USB load/save sound/setup data
- Song recorder
- Metronome + 100 drum rhythms (new stereo drum samples)
- Assignable MMC buttons

@Jeff Cleff, thank you for your kind words. wink
My ankle is slowly healing thank you. I'm able to ride my bike a little by pedalling mostly with my left ('good') foot and using just the heel of my right (injured) foot to push the pedal around. It's not terribly elegant, but it means I can get out and about, and still exercise a little on my left side. I've lost around 6 kg of muscle in my arms and legs (and I was already very lean before...), and haven't practised yoga properly for a couple of months. I will continue to wear the ankle support for another month or so until the doctor signs me off. Then I'll start using my right foot properly to cycle, gradually return to yoga, and attempt to regain my health and fitness.

I spent New Year's Day this year cycling around lake Hama - a really beautiful part of the world. It's an 80 km ride from the door of my apartment, to the lake, then around, back through Hamamatsu (passing Roland and Yamaha on the way...), and back to my door. If I can do the same ride next year, in a reasonable time and without too much pain or reaction, I'll be very happy. wink

Anyway back to the thread...

@Jakes Jackson, all Kawai instruments released since the ES6 (mid-2008) have featured 88-key sampling.

The ES6 uses 'Harmonic Imaging' (88-key piano sampling) sound technology, while the MP6 and MP10 use the 'Progressive' and 'Ultra Progressive' standards respectively. The default 'Concert Grand' sound should be directly comparable to the respective PHI and UPHI 'Concert Grand' sounds on the CN23/CN33 and CA93/CA63. However, both the MP10 and MP6 also include additional piano sounds that have yet to be featured on any Kawai instrument, with new key-off/hammer and fall-back sounds, and obviously far greater parameter controls. So in this respect, the MP6/MP10 pianos sounds are almost like extended versions of the existing PHI/UPHI standards.

@kurtie, as I mentioned before, you're pretty much spot-on on all the MP6 improvements/new features - good job. wink

Regarding the setting of drawbar positions on the MP6 tonewheel sim, an early prototype I saw did indeed use the zone faders to adjust the drawbars. However, I can only assume that this operation caused too many usability problems with the main zone level control and was later rejected. Instead, the drawbars are now controller individually using the value up/down buttons. It's obviously not quite as 'hands on' as the faders method, but it does the job.

@Deffie, yes, as mentioned above, all Kawai instruments since the ES6 have featured 88-key sampling. However, again as noted above, the MP6 should sound much better than the ES6. The MP10 and CA93/CA63 is a closer comparison as they share a number of acoustic piano sounds. However, as the flagship stage piano, the MP10 offers greater variation and considerably more control over the sound produced.

Okay, well I think that answer's everyone's questions.
It's a beautiful day outside - time to jump on the bike and go for a gentle ride. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/11/10 02:37 AM

Yeah, I got my terminology mixed up, I was thinking that the ES6 was PHI as well.

Aaron
Posted By: IMOL

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/11/10 04:14 PM

For James,
Thanks for all the news you tell us.

And a special thanks for my problem ... for details, I sent a private message 8 and 9 September ...but i had not you confirm confused

I believe that the new MP series certainly will get new customers for Kawai. thumb
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 08:43 AM

Just enhanced the big MP10 picture a bit so I could read/decipher the text below the knobs and sliders: quite an impressive easy-to-use layout for the gigging musician, especially the sound selection! wow
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Regarding the setting of drawbar positions on the MP6 tonewheel sim, an early prototype I saw did indeed use the zone faders to adjust the drawbars. However, I can only assume that this operation caused too many usability problems with the main zone level control and was later rejected. Instead, the drawbars are now controller individually using the value up/down buttons. It's obviously not quite as 'hands on' as the faders method, but it does the job.


Ouch! This way seems quite limiting. Indeed, with the controls the MP5 (and MP6) offer is a challenge to control the drawbars. I guess that configuring the mod-wheel to enter values (MP5 can, so I assume MP6 will), then you could use it for enter the value of each drawbar.

I know it is a usability challenge because I use the MP5 with the sadly discontinued Native Instruments B4. I use the knobs to control the drawbars. As the knobs can be configured to different MIDI controls for each zone (very nice feature), with two zones I can control 8 of the 9 drawbars. Of course, it is far from perfect, but it works. Using the zone faders seemed even a better way to do it, but unfortunately the faders are not assignable.

Of course Kawai engineers have looked at the problem with far lot more information (and skills) than me. I don't know the best solution, but I know how I would like to control the drawbars: with the faders. A button would switch the faders between 'normal' volume mode and 'drawbar' mode. In drawbar mode the faders would control the drawbars, and the each zone would control different drawbar (1-4 first zone, 5-8 second, 9 third). But there are some problems... the biggest I see is when you have set the positions for drawbars 1 to 4, and then you change to drawbars 5-8, then the faders positions will not reflect the values of the current drawbars. Automated faders would solve it, but that increases costs.

Currently I have the same problem using the knobs... but if the screen shows the numeric values, well, it works well enough.

I hope the drawbars in MP6 can be controlled via MIDI, then the same solution I've used to control the B4 will work for the internal drawbars, and it's far better than nothing.



Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 10:11 AM

Interesting stuff Kurtie - I'll pass on your suggestion to the MP6 programmer and see what he thinks.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Just enhanced the big MP10 picture a bit so I could read/decipher the text below the knobs and sliders: quite an impressive easy-to-use layout for the gigging musician, especially the sound selection! wow


Yeah I had a look at the MP6/10 pics to check out the control layout and found they were tiny (compared to what Yamaha and Roland offer) also there seemed to be only a couple of complete board pics of each which again is unlike the others who provide larger, better images from different angles to show the various interfaces. The pdf brochure again is fairly scant on detailed info as is the products webpage (not existent in English actually).

Makes a huge difference compared with Yamaha who launched the CP1/5/50 in a flurry of video demos, huge pics and detailed brochures. And Roland of course who just launched the RD700NX with the same. I noticed that pretty much every country in the world with a Yamaha or Roland website has info up about their new pianos within a day or two but with Kawai they don't seem to be able to disseminate their product information as efficiently. They might be real competitors to Roland and Yamaha but at this stage who would know they exist beyond a select few piano watchers ?

On a more personal note Kawai might have the best sounding DP's in the world but yet again people like me wouldn't know because their artist services efforts to get us to try them have been non existent and yet they say they have a wide artist services program but nobody I've spoken to except one person (who they tout fairly widely as one of their "stars") has ever been involved with them and he had no idea that the MP6/10 existed and hasn't heard from Kawai in a while.

Not picking on Kawai ... just find the marketing odd.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 11:57 AM

Dr Popper,

I don't believe anyone would dispute the fact that Kawai's approach to marketing is a little old fashioned.

However, the situation is definitely improving. This is actually the first time Kawai have made English language materials available on the same day as the domestic Japanese announcement. And regardless of whether you believe the PDF brochure is lacking in detail, I'm sure you'll agree that the information presented is far better than attempting to decipher a Google translation of the Japanese news release.

Admittedly, the product pictures from Kawai Japan's website are a little small. However, these images are not the highest resolution data, nor are they the only angles photographed. I'm confident that by the time these new MP models arrive in dealers' stores, consumers will have access to a great deal more content that has been widely disseminated through Kawai's overseas channels.

Regarding artist services/endorsements, in this area Kawai is blessed to be working with a select number of highly talented musicians and producers performing a broad range of genres. Granted, we may struggle to match the packages offered by other major brands, however I can guarantee that each and every musician that chooses to play Kawai on stage does so because they absolutely love the touch and tone of our instruments.

I believe the MP10 and MP6 have already created quite a buzz within this forum and will no doubt continue to do so elsewhere in the industry as the news of their existence gradually filters through. These are truly great instruments that I'm proud to have had a part in developing, and I personally can't wait to hear the reactions and feedback from amateur and professional musicians in the coming weeks and months.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 02:41 PM

Yeah I don't know James, when I think of Kawai I'm really thinking acoustics not DP's. You might have noticed that by the time models arrive in stores Yamaha, Roland etc have numerous videos, demo's, manuals and HiRez pic's available for months. You have to get the buzz flowing long before the products are in the stores. A bit like how we release singles for radio 6-8 weeks before a album. I'd like to see more active competition and I've got no doubt given a push Kawai could be right up there. After all ... Roland and Casio don't actually make Pianos yet they would have a much larger market share of the dp market because they push them hard. Admittedly Yamaha is the 600 pound Gorilla in the industry but because of them they can be overly corporate and slow to respond to market trends.
If Kawai improves their communication then I see big opportunities for the future.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/13/10 03:40 PM

Dr Popper,

Quote
Yeah I don't know James, when I think of Kawai I'm really thinking acoustics not DP's.


Well, I'll take that, thanks. wink

Quote
I'd like to see more active competition and I've got no doubt given a push Kawai could be right up there.


I agree. In fact, when it comes to console digital pianos, some might say we're all ready 'there'. Arguably the only reason Kawai's stage piano side of things looked a little tired is because the instruments hadn't been refreshed for a few years.

Quote
After all ... Roland and Casio don't actually make Pianos yet they would have a much larger market share of the dp market because they push them hard.


Again I agree, Roland's marketing is terrific. And Casio certainly aren't too far behind - did you catch Mike Martin's live streaming demo of the PX-3? That was truly pioneering stuff. What I would say however, is that Casio's price:performance ratio is perhaps the main reason their market share is so strong - nobody (not even a 600 lb. gorilla) can touch them for features at the sub-$500 price point. Plus it obviously helps that their instruments are available to purchase from general stores such as 'Best Buy'.

Quote
If Kawai improves their communication then I see big opportunities for the future.


I'll drink to that. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/14/10 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
In fact, when it comes to console digital pianos, some might say we're all ready 'there'.

From the hardware side, especially design, action and sound, I can confirm that Kawai is already top notch with their new 2010 product line. From the software side, I expect that Kawai continues their excellent track record of implementing customer requests for additional features in excisting top of the range models.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/14/10 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Quote
Yeah I don't know James, when I think of Kawai I'm really thinking acoustics not DP's.


Well, I'll take that, thanks. wink

[quote]



Well I did like the RX7 a lot actually. It really impressed me, great keys,a kind of blended slightly richer but still neutral tonality that's very similar to a S6 but in a different way and a nice looking slab it was too. Well finished and obviously high quality in materials and workmanship. I recall it was able to be very loud when bashed ...which I like.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/14/10 09:57 AM

Quote
nice looking slab


Lovely turn of phrase there. wink

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Nice new signature line too. wink
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/14/10 10:31 AM

Even though I'm not in the market for a new stage piano (having recently bought a CP5), the MP10 looks interesting and I will try and play one. Who knows, I might be sold on Kawai.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/14/10 03:00 PM

For sure, I will benchmark the MP10 with the other top-of-the-line stagepianos that Feedback Apeldoorn has in store. cool
Posted By: arley

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/15/10 02:05 PM

Three questions for James:

Any word as to when the owner's manuals will be available for the MP6 and MP10 online?

Roughly when would you expect the pianos to be available in the US?

Any word on US pricing? Will they be close to what the MP5 and MP8ii went for?
Posted By: EmmaxDad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/15/10 02:43 PM

Here's what I heard from Kawai USA several days ago:
Quote

Thanks for your interest in the new Kawai MP series. We're not quite ready to release any info on them; but that should happen sometime this month. Also, the schedule for the first shipment keeps changing, so I don't really have a firm date just yet. I'm thinking that stores should get them sometime in November.

Posted By: 1976pianoman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/15/10 04:59 PM


MP6
Overview of New Kawai MP10 and MP6 Professional Stage Pianos
New‐ Progressive Harmonic Imaging New ‐ 88‐Key piano sampling New ‐ RH action with let‐off New ‐ Ivory Touch key surfaces
New ‐ 2 sets of piano sounds + original MP5 piano set New ‐ EP sounds New ‐ Tone wheel organ simulator New ‐ Amp simulator w/ drive
New ‐ USB recorder/player – MP3, .WAV and MIDI New ‐ USB storage for user settings Continues MP5 controller keyboard concept 4 independent internal and external zones
256 sounds / 256 user setups 3 band EQ with sweepable mid MIDI Transport controls F10H pedal w/ half‐dampering Heavy duty music rack $1799.00 List


MP10
27 sounds / 156 User Setups 3 independent sound sections (Piano, EP and Sub) plus MIDI section 3 band EQ w/ sweepable mid range
Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging 88‐Key piano sampling RM3 wooden‐key action with let‐off Ivory Touch key surfaces
Concept & design, simple and focused 3 different sets of acoustic piano sounds EP sounds (Tine, Reed and FM) Amp simulator w/ drive USB recorder/player – MP3, .WAV or MIDI USB storage for user settings
MIDI transport controls F20 Dual pedal w/ half‐dampering Heavy duty music rack $2999.00 List
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/15/10 07:00 PM

So...where is that information coming from; is it already in the catalogue of one of the US stores, as this posting implies ?! I asked the European department today (again) for info and got no answer other than this - seems you've got more luck:

"as I already mentioned in my last mail, the release dates and the retail prices of the new MP models are not fixed yet.

Please contact your favorite dealer and tell him about your strong interest in buying one of the new MP-models.

I guess he will reserve a model of the first delivery for you and he will contact you immediately after receiving the
price and delivery information."
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/15/10 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
So...where is that information coming from; is it already in the catalogue of one of the US stores, as this posting implies ?! I asked the European department today (again) for info and got no answer other than this - seems you've got more luck:

"as I already mentioned in my last mail, the release dates and the retail prices of the new MP models are not fixed yet.

Please contact your favorite dealer and tell him about your strong interest in buying one of the new MP-models.

I guess he will reserve a model of the first delivery for you and he will contact you immediately after receiving the
price and delivery information."


I rest my case about Kawai's gonzo marketing ....
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/16/10 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by arley
Any word as to when the owner's manuals will be available for the MP6 and MP10 online?

The owner's manuals will be available to download from the Kawai Europe, America, and Australia websites in the usual way, as and when the product pages are updated.

My advice would be to simply remain patient. It's easy for me to say that, I know. However MP fans have been longing for new models with updated keys, sounds, and features for quite some time, so in the grand scheme of things a few more weeks shouldn't hurt too much. wink

Originally Posted by arley
Roughly when would you expect the pianos to be available in the US?

Any word on US pricing? Will they be close to what the MP5 and MP8ii went for?


I'm sorry but I'm afraid I don't have any direct involvement in sales or distribution. Questions regarding pricing and availability should be addressed to the regional subsidiaries for each market.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/16/10 04:58 AM

I hope we'll be able to hear recordings of the pianos, soon, at least.

I guess the MP6 will have fewer acoustic pianos than the MP10?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/16/10 09:50 AM

"...so in the grand scheme of things a few more weeks shouldn't hurt too much. "

Well, it's like putting a nicely packed present right in front of someones nose , pretending it contains an item the birthday boy most wanted and then telling him he may not open the box for another 30 days. We're all little children anyway in that respect ;-)

So....the sooner the better !
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/16/10 10:03 AM

JFP,

Originally Posted by JFP
I asked the European department today (again) for info and got no answer other than this received the following reply:


There, I fixed it for you. wink

Seriously though, as my colleague at Kawai Europe informed you earlier (and by private email, I might add...), the pricing and release dates for the new MP models have yet to be fixed.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/16/10 10:30 AM

Gimme my present !!

Thanks for the 'typo correction'. I know they can't say anything when dates and prices are not fixed yet. But perhaps when customers are pushing for information, they might speed-up things a bit. Who knows...(noticed that I'm still in for the instruments despite the heavy lifting it requires ? That's something that has to be rewarded by an earlier introduction, don't you think ?)
Posted By: 1976pianoman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/18/10 05:11 AM

My previous post on this thread that included the retail prices came directly from Tom Love
Sr. Manager - Electronics Division / Sr. Manager - Online Marketing
Kawai America & Kawai Canada.

Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/18/10 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper

I rest my case about Kawai's gonzo marketing ....


James' presence here might be termed gonzo marketing.

On the other hand, what Kawai S&D and in turn Kawai Europe are doing is generally referred to simply as "incompetence".
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/18/10 05:16 PM

I consider James' presence more as an extra service. What about your presence? wink

Posted By: piRround

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/18/10 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
I consider James' presence more as an extra service. What about your presence? wink



+1
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/18/10 07:07 PM

+2

I think he does what he possibly can within the restrictions that corporate Kawai has set. I very much value the info and effort.Thanks a lot James.

That said , I also wonder why the competition can introduce new instruments and have all the websites , promotional material and dealer networks up-to-date in no time. The FP7F and RD700NX were here in the shop lists within days and could immediately be pre-ordered. I know the delivery-time is still a few months, but al least they make it no secret of it and pricing information is also immediately available. Very fast, very transparent (although specs may be an issue e.g. the PHAIII vs PHAIIIs debate), very consumer friendly.

Why must Kawai deal in such secrecy as if they almost regret the word is out and are surprised and anxious that people might actually be interested and want to know more and ...(oh dear) buy the products. It's a mystery to me ..., just put on the pricing, specs and delivery times and open pre-order accounts and the problem is solved. It might even help them a lot when they know how much buying potential they generate to scale up and down production and other company efforts. (Compared to other high-tech companies, they must live in another world and/or century in headquarters Kawai).
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/19/10 04:45 AM

I also had to laugh at the tiny pics on their website, its as if they don't want people to see the interface before the board is released.I think its fairly obvious the reasons that Kawai's marketing is less then ideal is that they are struggling with the modern worldwide marketing approach. They also have the difficult situation of not being able to control what many of their distributors do as they do not own their own distribution network. I've had a few discussions with people about Kawai in the past few weeks and the consensus seems to be they are a bit old fashioned and slow to change. Their piano's seem fantastic though, but if few people know its of little use.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/19/10 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Their piano's seem fantastic though, but if few people know its of little use.

Well, I do tend to prefer product excellence and value for money as compared to marketing excellence on itself, e.g. Yamaha's high prices for yesterday's (2008) DP technology.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/19/10 07:53 AM

DrPopper, thank you for your post - it's always interesting to read your thoughts.

Quote
I also had to laugh at the tiny pics on their website, its as if they don't want people to see the interface before the board is released.


Are you referring to the pictures on this page?

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/mp10/gallery.html

If so, I agree that the images are a little small. However, I very much doubt that this is because anyone within Kawai Japan's domestic division wishes to hide the interface. More likely the web chap just wanted to show a shot of the whole instrument, rather than a close-up.

Quote
They also have the difficult situation of not being able to control what many of their distributors do as they do not own their own distribution network.


I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't quite follow what you mean. Kawai instruments are sold by Kawai dealers - is this an uncommon practise?

Quote
I've had a few discussions with people about Kawai in the past few weeks and the consensus seems to be they are a bit old fashioned and slow to change.


Yes, I accept that. As I posted a few days ago, Kawai's approach to marketing is a little old fashioned. However, the exceptional quality of our acoustic and digital instruments cannot be questioned. I expect most individuals would suggest that this is far more important than hires pictures and cutting-edge web marketing.

Quote
Their piano's seem fantastic though...


Thank you. I rest my case. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/19/10 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James


Are you referring to the pictures on this page?

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/mp10/gallery.html

If so, I agree that the images are a little small. However, I very much doubt that this is because anyone within Kawai Japan's domestic division wishes to hide the interface. More likely the web chap just wanted to show a shot of the whole instrument, rather than a close-up.


Its not a question of what you do ... its a question of what your competitors ARE doing.

Well James if you look at Yamaha's website pic of the CP5 when expanded
http://www.yamahasynth.com/common/contents/photo/en/000427/cp5_o_0001_f_v.jpg

Or Roland's of the RD700NX .....

http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/images/products/gallery/rd-700nx_top_gal.jpg

You might see what I'm getting at..... compared to your competitors Kawai's web presence isn't up to par.

Originally Posted by Kawai James

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't quite follow what you mean. Kawai instruments are sold by Kawai dealers - is this an uncommon practise?


No but Kawai reply on distributors (not retailers) that they do not own to distribute their products in various parts of the world. The European and American operations appears to operate with little joint cooperation with the Japanese parent. Roland and Yamaha integrate their marketing operations as a worldwide effort.

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Yes, I accept that. As I posted a few days ago, Kawai's approach to marketing is a little old fashioned. However, the exceptional quality of our acoustic and digital instruments cannot be questioned. I expect most individuals would suggest that this is far more important than hires pictures and cutting-edge web marketing.


There is no point having the best products in the world if the majority of your market is unaware of their benefits and features.
You can have the best DP in history but If you don't show it nobody will know it .....


Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 02:52 AM

Dr Popper,

Thank you for your post. Again, you make some valid points, however I'm not terribly happy with the direction that this thread is taking. It appears to be descending into a general criticism of Kawai's marketing techniques, rather than a focussed discussion on the new MP models as the original poster intended.

There are a number of points specifically related to marketing and distribution that I don't believe should be discussed outside of this public forum as they do not really help to develop this particular thread. I have therefore sent you a private message - I hope this is okay.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm not terribly happy with the direction that this thread is taking. It appears to be descending into a general criticism of Kawai's marketing techniques, rather than a focussed discussion on the new MP models as the original poster intended.

The trouble is that when there's a dearth of new information to discuss, most threads either die or degenerate into something off-topic. This one's in a holding pattern...

On the subject of marketing, maybe we should start a MMBSD thread grin
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Thank you for your post. Again, you make some valid points, however I'm not terribly happy with the direction that this thread is taking. It appears to be descending into a general criticism of Kawai's marketing techniques, rather than a focussed discussion on the new MP models as the original poster intended.
x


Believe me James I agree with you ! I'd love to be discussing the benefits and specifics of the new MP6/10's but my main point about Kawai's marketing really was that without detailed information,demonstrations and samples its quite difficult to get a handle these boards and what they offer.

Please don't feel I am attacking the MP6/10 in any way. They in fact appear to be at first glance excellent boards and I am confident that when the boards surface and more details emerge and people have the chance to play them that they will be highly competitive and well received.

Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 07:30 AM

What kind of trolley would be suitable for comfortably transporting an MP10?
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
What kind of trolley would be suitable for comfortably transporting an MP10?

Something like one of the latest ambulance gurneys! They are basically X-frames with wheels and hydraulics. The piano is transported on the frame and then raised automatically to the desired playing height. It would need a top cover built-in. Maybe a little spendy, but hey, if the MP10 sounds as good as it looks, it might be worth it!

Actually, if you go to the B&H website and look up "carts and handtrucks", there are many potential solutions there:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Carts-Handtrucks/ci/224/N/4291634327
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 11:31 AM

Okay, thanks. Based on that, I found a cost-efficient solution that at least works for the MP8 II (also MP10?):
http://www.musicworldbrilon.de/Tast...lleys/Gewa-Keyboardtrolly-150--8662.html
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 08:17 PM

Is there any new info out apart from what we know already since the "introduction" of the MP10/MP6 ? We have the single initial JP / UK folder material and some words from Kawai Germany (no info yet) and Kawai James (info is coming...when the time is right ;-)

I would like to know roughly how long it's going to take before the 'real' introduction takes place, so I don't have to check this forum-thread and Google for 'Kawai MP10' everyday. Got other things to do as well..; will it be a month , a few weeks or at least november before the rest of the details become available ? Any info on that will be appreciated and will make sure I can put it to rest for the moment.

Thanks, J

Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Okay, thanks. Based on that, I found a cost-efficient solution that at least works for the MP8 II (also MP10?):
http://www.musicworldbrilon.de/Tast...lleys/Gewa-Keyboardtrolly-150--8662.html

Sorry, I misunderstood due to confusion of terminology. If you're looking for a roller case, I can recommend the large, soft-sided Gator cases. Not too expensive or heavy, and offering reasonably good protection.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Is there any new info out apart from what we know already since the "introduction" of the MP10/MP6 ? We have the single initial JP / UK folder material and some words from Kawai Germany (no info yet) and Kawai James (info is coming...when the time is right ;-)

I would like to know roughly how long it's going to take before the 'real' introduction takes place, so I don't have to check this forum-thread and Google for 'Kawai MP10' everyday. Got other things to do as well..; will it be a month , a few weeks or at least november before the rest of the details become available ? Any info on that will be appreciated and will make sure I can put it to rest for the moment.

Thanks, J



But I bet this non-introduction has stopped you going out and buying a Yamaha or Roland. wink

Actually, I'm hoping they use this time to rush out an MP10-lite. Size and weight of the MP6 but with the 10's UPHI engine married to the 6's action. James, are you lighting fires? wink wink
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 09:32 PM

No I have not; I like the Rm3 action and the no-nonsense design approach of Kawai too much. Also I do not want to get into negative discussion about Kawai . Just want to head more details , because what little that we know has already been discussed and no new info seems to have arrived since the 'introduction' from beginning of september. We were told to be patient and wait for more info and I just want to know how long we should wait in terms of days, weeks, months...
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 09:58 PM

JFP, may I ask what kind of information you would be satisfied with?

Additional (higher resolution) images, owner's manual PDFs, sound clips...all three perhaps?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Rhodie73

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 10:37 PM

Actually an introductory video similar to what Roland did or sound clips like what Yamaha did when they introduced the new CP series, wouldn't be too shabby wink

I have an idea of what the acoustic pianos are going to sound like but, I'm really interested in hearing the improved Rhodes electric pianos. smile
Posted By: ChrisA

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by TADutchman
What kind of trolley would be suitable for comfortably transporting an MP10?

Something like one of the latest ambulance gurneys! They are basically X-frames with wheels and hydraulics. The piano is transported on the frame and then raised automatically to the desired playing height. It would need a top cover built-in. Maybe a little spendy,


A few years back I worked for a company and we had some cases custom made for a client. Some were a lot like what you describe above.

It was a scissors-lift case on wheels. Not for a piano but exactly the same concept. You don't need a strong hydraulic system because much of the weight is taken with a spring that is sized for the load weight.

Our only mistake was to listen to the client who told us "It MUST be no wider then 36 inches." We simply passed this to the case builder. The builder told us he'd prefer to use more foam padding inside but 36" could work. So he made it a hair under 36.

What I always do now is ask "Why?" if a customer wants something very specific. It turns out he wanted the case to fit through a door. Had he said that we'd have gone with 34.5". Standard doors are 36" but the stop moulding around the door jams takes away space.

Turns out our client came up wit a work around: Wheel the case up to a door, remove the content, take the lid off the case and turn in sideways. Push all three through the door and then reassemble it all, put in back on wheel and keep going. Fortunately (1) They blamed themselves for getting exactly what they asked for and (2) most venues have double doors with removable center post.

Anyway we had several of these made and they were fun to use at the office, they worked just like car jacks. We used Maryland Sound to build well over 100 custom cases for that job. Sense then I've heard a few cases full of heavy gear have tumbled off loading docks and survived just fine.

.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Actually an introductory video similar to what Roland did or sound clips like what Yamaha did when they introduced the new CP series, wouldn't be too shabby wink

I have an idea of what the acoustic pianos are going to sound like but, I'm really interested in hearing the improved Rhodes electric pianos. smile

+1
I, too, am eager to hear the APs and EPs from both models, as well as tonewheels from the MP6. And please, no Minute Waltz or other overly staccato pieces!
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/20/10 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisA
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by TADutchman
What kind of trolley would be suitable for comfortably transporting an MP10?

Something like one of the latest ambulance gurneys! They are basically X-frames with wheels and hydraulics. The piano is transported on the frame and then raised automatically to the desired playing height. It would need a top cover built-in. Maybe a little spendy,


A few years back I worked for a company and we had some cases custom made for a client. Some were a lot like what you describe above.

It was a scissors-lift case on wheels. Not for a piano but exactly the same concept. You don't need a strong hydraulic system because much of the weight is taken with a spring that is sized for the load weight.

Our only mistake was to listen to the client who told us "It MUST be no wider then 36 inches." We simply passed this to the case builder. The builder told us he'd prefer to use more foam padding inside but 36" could work. So he made it a hair under 36.

What I always do now is ask "Why?" if a customer wants something very specific. It turns out he wanted the case to fit through a door. Had he said that we'd have gone with 34.5". Standard doors are 36" but the stop moulding around the door jams takes away space.

Turns out our client came up wit a work around: Wheel the case up to a door, remove the content, take the lid off the case and turn in sideways. Push all three through the door and then reassemble it all, put in back on wheel and keep going. Fortunately (1) They blamed themselves for getting exactly what they asked for and (2) most venues have double doors with removable center post.

Anyway we had several of these made and they were fun to use at the office, they worked just like car jacks. We used Maryland Sound to build well over 100 custom cases for that job. Sense then I've heard a few cases full of heavy gear have tumbled off loading docks and survived just fine.

.

Well, if manufacturers continue to come up with 70lbs plus pianos, you might be back in business!!!
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Something like one of the latest ambulance gurneys!

Most DPs should be on a gurney to the morgue, to find out why they are so lifeless.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by voxpops
Something like one of the latest ambulance gurneys!

Most DPs should be on a gurney to the morgue, to find out why they are so lifeless.

Someone once suggested we call our band Autopsy Turvy - kinda wish we had now!
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 03:25 AM

Some bad news: I stopped by the local Sam Ash store and was told that they no longer sell Kawai instruments. I may have a hard time testing out these new instruments here in Atlanta once they're released.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
JFP, may I ask what kind of information you would be satisfied with?

...all three perhaps?

Cheers,
James
x


smile
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Kawai James
JFP, may I ask what kind of information you would be satisfied with?

...all three perhaps?

Cheers,
James
x


smile

+1 thumb
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Some bad news: I stopped by the local Sam Ash store and was told that they no longer sell Kawai instruments. I may have a hard time testing out these new instruments here in Atlanta once they're released.


Welcome to the club.

(Ex)Retailers find Kawai even more exasperating and difficult to do business with as their prospective (ex) customers.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 09:03 AM

@TheJourney: would you mind sharing your opinion on the new Kawai MP10/MP6, which are the topic of this thread?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 09:21 AM

@Kawai James: yes, yes and yes . Especially the user manual will be very helpful to answer most questions people may have about the MP10/Mp6.

And, if at all possible, a rough estimate of when we can expect more details about pricing /ordering in terms of weeks , months , days (hours, whatever ;-)

Many thanks,
J

Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
@TheJourney: would you mind sharing your opinion on the new Kawai MP10/MP6, which are the topic of this thread?


TADutchman, would you mind sticking to objective topics rather than playing amateur moderator and making other posters the topic?

Based on the (lack of) facts now available, I am of the opinion that the MP6 and MP10 are either wishful thinking or pre-emptive vaporware -- until Kawai gives us credible evidence to the contrary. Kawai is fully responsible for this, not you or me.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 09:55 AM

Thanks for sharing your opinion! shocked wink

My (not so) wild guess is that especially the MP10 will be a winner. cool
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 02:46 PM

"Welcome to the club. (Ex)Retailers find Kawai even more exasperating and difficult to do business with as their prospective (ex) customers."

Interesting perspective, though I can't say I understand it.

When I asked my piano seller why they carried Kawai, the answer came back right away, "Because they're so great to do business with!" followed up by several examples--- warranty service, for one thing.

We were talking about their APs, though they carry DPs also (and I eventually bought one from them).

Well, James, the PDF of the manual for the new DPs would probably edify your anxious and hungry pack. It's where I start, when I'm trying to figure out what equipment to buy, and it would probably be easier to field than getting an announced product from the fab to the point of sale. Those big container ships only move so fast,and they have half a world to go around...
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 03:24 PM

Agreed on the manual. While all would be appreciated, that's what I'm most interested in right now (and knowing that they're done and we just can't see it yet makes it worse smile )

Aaron
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 05:57 PM

High-res image of the MP10 controls: http://www.kawai.de/grafik/mp10_panel.jpg

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/21/10 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
High-res image of the MP10 controls: http://www.kawai.de/grafik/mp10_panel.jpg

Aaron

Thanks for finding that, Aaron.

So refreshing to see what looks like a really well thought-out and logical interface. Can't wait to hear it!
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/22/10 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Deffie
High-res image of the MP10 controls: http://www.kawai.de/grafik/mp10_panel.jpg

Aaron

Thanks for finding that, Aaron.

So refreshing to see what looks like a really well thought-out and logical interface. Can't wait to hear it!


Hear hear!
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/22/10 07:18 PM

So...it's now almost 23-09. On 08-09 the MP's were released. Since then : zero new info; only a custom pic with a slightly enhanced resolution of the controls. No manual, no sound examples, no news whatsoever. I therefore repeat my question: when can we expect more useful details (price , realistic delivery dates, pre-ordering info). "Beginning next month" , "next week" or "over at least three months" are indications I'm looking for to base my decisions on. Now there's just silence from the direction of Kawai Co. No offense and I know I'm repeating myself, but it's useful for planning time and investments to know just a little bit more. I can imagine getting the new CA-13, CN23/33 to market takes up a lot of time, but nevertheless...

Thanks , J
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/22/10 10:12 PM

JFP,

Quote
On 08-09 the MP's were released.


No, on 08-09 the new models were announced - and for the Japanese market only I might add.

Quote
Since then : zero new info...


The Kawai Japan website has seen new content added on an almost daily basis. Sure, it's in Japanese, but please remember that these new instruments have yet to be formally announced outside of Japan.

Quote
I therefore repeat my question: when can we expect more useful details


Most likely when these instruments are formally announced outside of Japan.

Quote
price


As you have already been informed by Kawai Europe, the pricing of these new instruments has yet to be fixed. However, once the MP10 and MP6 are formally announced, I would anticipate that they will be priced at approximately the same level as the previous generation models they are intended to replace.

Quote
pre-ordering info


How about this:

Originally Posted by JFP
"Please contact your favorite dealer and tell him about your strong interest in buying one of the new MP-models.

I guess he will reserve a model of the first delivery for you and he will contact you immediately after receiving the price and delivery information."


That sounds like pretty good advice to me.

Quote
No offense...


None taken. wink

The new MP instruments are clearly highly anticipated, and rightly so. However, I urge you to remain patient and to wait until formal announcements are made by Kawai's overseas subsidiaries.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/22/10 10:39 PM

James,

Would you have a go at answering a very subjective question? Since you must have played/heard the PHI and UPHI engines many times, can you paint a picture of the differences? How does the responsiveness vary? What kind of subtleties do you hear with UPHI that you don't with PHI? How does the overall experience differ?

I know it's a tall order to answer such subjective questions of nuance, but it would be really helpful to someone like me who may have to make a purchasing decision without the luxury of being able to play/hear these instruments prior to plonking down the cash.

Oh, and could you also summarize the differences between the MP6's EPs and the MP10's?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 02:37 AM

Hi James, thanks and sorry - I already said I was repeating myself and I agree that I'm bit too impatient.

So..question about the the MP10 ; it seems to have an audio input. I wonder if it was specifically added to enable people to connect the audio output from additional sound sources (like a laptop with plug-ins) and be able to control balance/volume and perhaps some additional parameters from the control surface of the MP10 and use the XLR's of the M10 as the main output to PA/monitors ?

The PX3-BK from Casio has an input and design that was developed for that purpose. Would be a great feature...

J
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 02:58 AM

voxpops, I am reluctant to answer such subjective questions.

Would you be satisfied if I told you that the MP6 acoustic piano and EP sounds are very, very good, and that the MP10 acoustic piano and EP sounds are very, very, very good?

I am obviously delighted to hear that you are seriously considering these new instruments. However, as with any DP - regardless of brand - I strongly recommend play-testing the models thoroughly before you decide to purchase.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 03:01 AM

Quote
So..question about the the MP10 ; it seems to have an audio input. I wonder if it was specifically added to enable people to connect the audio output from additional sound sources (like a laptop with plug-ins) and be able to control balance/volume and perhaps some additional parameters from the control surface of the MP10 and use the XLR's of the M10 as the main output to PA/monitors ?


Correct.

When used in combination with the built-in USB audio functionality, this allows you to make WAV/MP3 recordings of both the MP10's audio and whatever audio is connected to the LINE IN jacks.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 03:12 AM

Well, James, while you're in an answering mood, maybe I can satisfy my impatience to know about the MP-10's keyboard action. Say, compared to the K-series or the RX-series, or even the present MP8?

The one area in which I could find no model that was really satisfying, was the action. After all, the rest you can add on (though it's a good move to have more recording and sequencing functionality onboard).

Oh well, it will be November before we know it--- and the next November. One interesting effect of slowing down personally is that time seems to fly by. So why rush to meet it; it will get here soon enough.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Would you be satisfied if I told you that the MP6 acoustic piano and EP sounds are very, very good, and that the MP10 acoustic piano and EP sounds are very, very, very good?


Not really. grin But hey, I didn't really expect you'd want to step into that minefield - worth a try though.

As for the comment about trying them out first - yes that's what I'd love to be able to do, but finding a Kawai stage piano to play in Oregon is like shaking hands with the crew of the Marie Celeste...
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I am reluctant to answer such subjective questions.

Just a suggestion: you could answer in more objective terms. How much sample memory is devoted to the main AP patch? Any stretching? How many layers?

I know, I know, the safety of the free world hinges on you not answering these things.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 05:28 AM

Somehow I have a feeling poor James is not enjoying being the meat in the sandwich of Kawai's "old fashioned" marketing and non conforming "subsidiaries".
The MP's will arrive (or not) and they will be good (or not) and the world will still turn and nobody save the piano players will be able to tell the difference.
I get to play them both next Friday BTW smile I will (or won't) let you all know wink
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I get to play them both next Friday BTW smile I will (or won't) let you all know wink

Dr Popper, you da man (or not) grin
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/23/10 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Dr Popper, you da man (or not) grin

laugh ha ...no pun intended wink
Posted By: IMOL

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/25/10 08:49 AM

Hello everyone,
I am a bit concerned about covering keys(ivory touch ).
If it is true that absorbs sweat, will also be true that easily absorbs dirt.

What do you think?
My hands sweat a lot and I don't want to be with a keyboard difficult to clean.
I easily clean the keyboard of my MP5 with a synthetic leather moistened.

How can you clean this surface ( ivory touch )?....

JAMES ...Does Kawai recommends how to handle this?

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/25/10 09:22 AM

IMOLA, Kawai's Ivory Touch key surfaces are designed to absorb finger moisture without dirt permeating into the key itself.

Quote
How can you clean this surface ( ivory touch )?....


A dampened soft towel should be sufficient.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/25/10 05:40 PM

Out of curiosity James, do you know if the ivory touch material is the same that is used on Kawai acoustic pianos?

Aaron
Posted By: octurn

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/25/10 09:09 PM

I wonder what the panic button is for.

Kawai James flies to the rescue?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/26/10 12:11 AM

Deffie, I'm afraid I don't know - please let me get back to you on that one.

octurn, The PANIC button returns all internal sounds to their default PowerOn setting, and sends the AllNoteOff and ResetAllController MIDI messages to any connect devices.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/26/10 03:38 AM

I should have such a button on my forehead.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/26/10 03:59 AM

James,

No urgency or anything, just curiosity on my part smile It'd also probably make people feel a bit better about "ivory feel" if they knew it's the same material Kawai uses on their acoustic pianos.

Aaron
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/26/10 04:26 PM

Just based on what I know about the prices for Kawai APs and their comparative feature sets, I'd guess 'No.' Neotex key covers seem to make the APs jump as much in price as much as some of the DPs cost for the whole instrument.

Maybe the price point is constructed artificially, maybe it's set to recover the cost of both manufacturing and R&D.

As may be, it has a very nice-feeling touch and very good durability in regular home use.

I have fairly oily skin, and the keys have sometimes felt somewhat oily to the touch. But they never look or feel dirty (as in 'grimy') and have stood up well to gentle cleaning. No wear at all.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/27/10 03:43 PM

Another question for you James,

Does the MP10 let you layer piano sounds to do something similar to what's being discussed in the ongoing CA63/CA93 Custom Settings thread?

Aaron
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/27/10 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
Does the MP10 let you layer piano sounds to do something similar to what's being discussed in the ongoing CA63/CA93 Custom Settings thread?

+1 ...at first sight the control layout seems to be optimised for other purposes, right?...
Posted By: fiebru1119

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 01:24 AM

Wow now this is a surprise.. I had just saved enough money to go grab an MP5 when I discovered they were discontinued. Glad to see there is an MP6 on the horizon..

And for the record, since I dont see that these forums have a "for sale" section, I'd be interested in picking up someone's MP5 if they have one for sale...
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Deffie
Out of curiosity James, do you know if the ivory touch material is the same that is used on Kawai acoustic pianos?


Deffie, the Ivory Touch material used for Kawai's digital piano keyboards shares similar properties to that of the Neotex material used for Kawai's mid/high-end acoustic piano instruments.

Neotex is rather more expensive to develop, however, and as Jeff suggests above, it simply would not be cost-effective to use such material on a
digital piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Deffie
Another question for you James,

Does the MP10 let you layer piano sounds to do something similar to what's being discussed in the ongoing CA63/CA93 Custom Settings thread?


The MP10 uses a new approach to organising sounds, with separate sections for acoustic pianos, electric pianos, subsidiary voices, and MIDI. While it's possible to layer two or more sections together (e.g. a piano sound from the PIANO section and a strings sound from the SUB section), it is not possible to layer sounds from within the same section.

So, to take the custom CA93/CA63 settings thread as an example, I'm afraid it would not be possible to layer two different piano sounds together to create a new sound. This is unfortunate (especially given TADutchman's excellent work developing a variety of new sounds), however it's arguably one of the sacrifices that had to be made in order to successfully implement the new, improved operation.

What I would say however, is that the MP10 (and MP6 - albeit to a slightly lesser extent) offers far greater control over the sounds produced, with additional piano sounds and effects that are not possible on even the latest CA93/CA63 models. So yes, while you do lose the ability to layer two piano sounds together, I honestly believe that you actually gain a considerable amount more in advanced features.

The CA93/CA63 are undeniably superb instruments for players who simply want the best keyboard action and an excellent piano sound in an attractive console piano package. However, the MP10 is definitely the model for folks who want to get stuck-in and really tweak the sound - as we say in the brochure - it's the stage piano for stage pianists. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 02:26 AM

Sort of what I was expecting, thanks James.

Definitely looking forward to trying an MP10 now.

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 03:00 AM

Jeff, sorry for this delayed response.

Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
Well, James, while you're in an answering mood, maybe I can satisfy my impatience to know about the MP-10's keyboard action. Say, compared to the K-series or the RX-series, or even the present MP8?


How does the MP10's keyboard action compared to an acoustic? Gosh, that's a really tough one to answer.

Well, let's start by saying that it's definitely an improvement on the MP8/MP8II action. I know of folks who have traded-in their CA71 ('AWA Grand Pro II' action) for a CA63 ('RM3 Grand' action), and they definitely prefer the newer instrument - both in terms of how it sounds and how it feels.

Obviously comparisons with acoustic instruments are far more difficult to express with words, let alone judge objectively. The overall goal of the keyboard R&D chaps is undoubtedly to develop actions that feel as close to an acoustic as possible. As you'd no doubt expect me to say, 'RM3 Grand' is the best digital piano keyboard action Kawai has ever produced.

One of my colleagues in the US is lucky enough to have both an MP10 development board and an EX concert grand in his workshop. He can play one instrument for ten minutes, then swivel around in his chair to play the other for ten more. He swears that he often gets them mixed-up. Sure, the concert grand will undoubtedly sound a fair bit louder than the MP10 (although I guess that depends on how his amp is setup), but in terms of key touch, he says he doesn't need to make any adjustments to his playing technique.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
The MP10 uses a new approach to organising sounds, with separate sections for acoustic pianos, electric pianos, subsidiary voices, and MIDI. While it's possible to layer two or more sections together (e.g. a piano sound from the PIANO section and a strings sound from the SUB section), it is not possible to layer sounds from within the same section.

Here's an abstract from the MP5 user manual:

4 ASSIGNABLE ZONES
The MP5 keyboard can be divided into 4 zones. Each zone can be set to INT, EXT or BOTH individually. INT (Internal) is to play any of the 256 internal sounds. EXT (External) is to play external MIDI devices. BOTH is to play internal sounds and external MIDI devices at the same time. Each zone can be played individually, or multiple zones can be freely split, layered and velocity switched to create stunning and personalized performances.

Does this still apply to the MP6?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/28/10 08:03 AM

Yes, the MP6 operation retains the same overall operation as the MP5.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: IMOL

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 10:43 AM

Hello James, please be patient.
In Mp5, the single sound / tone can be modified by Attach, Decay etc.. and especially by Cutoff and Resonance (very useful for me)

In fact I managed to create the beautiful sound of Rhodes, and many think is NOT a sample of Kawai thumb
(If anyone wants, I can send in private the settings SETUP) wow

Question.
In MP6 there are other parameters and filters, or are the same that Mp5
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 10:47 AM

IMOLA, yes the MP6 features all of the parameters found in the MP5, plus a few more.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 01:20 PM

Looks like Sweetwater and GearNuts have it at $2499, available early October:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MP10
http://www.gearnuts.com/store/detail/MP10
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 02:09 PM

That seems like a good price - I assume it will be about AU$3000 over here in Oz. I thought it would be more than that.

Greg.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 02:22 PM

Those pictures are 3D renderings not real pictures ....
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 02:23 PM

Greg, get yourself down to Melbourne and try it out for yourself at the AIMS! wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Those pictures are 3D renderings not real pictures ....

Either a 3D rendering, or the MP10 is made out of monochromatic gray plastic - including the knobs and sliders. Not sure I like the incomplete look of the end caps, is that to form some kind of hand-hold or finger grip area while pitch-bending? I do approve of the mod/pitch wheel location though - Roland, take note.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 03:34 PM

This is what they say at Sweetwater - are they correct about UPHI , or is it the cheaper PHI they should have written in the specs ?!

Kawai MP6 88-key Stage Piano Features at a Glance:
Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging
88-Key piano sampling
RH action with let-off
Ivory Touch key surfaces
2 sets of piano sounds + original MP5 piano set
EP sounds
Tone wheel organ generator
Effects and amp simulator w/ drive
USB recorder/player - MP3, .WAV and MIDI
USB storage for user settings
Continues MP5 controller keyboard concept
4 independent internal and external zones
256 sounds / 256 user setups
3 band EQ with sweepable mid
MIDI Transport controls
F10H pedal w/ half-dampering
Heavy duty music rack

EDIT: It's gone ?!! It was there for a moment on the site for $ 1499 with the MP6 picture and all and now I can't find it back. Really strange...(James ?)
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 04:18 PM

Yup, both are gone from both Sweetwater and GearNuts now.

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 04:20 PM

It sounds like a mistake. UPHI is reserved for the MP10, unless they've suddenly had a change of heart at Kawai...
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 04:23 PM

You know, if the Sweetwater price is correct, that's not too bad a price considering the Yamaha CP50 is $1,699, the Korg SV-1 88 is $2,199 and the Roland RD-300GX is $1,599. Hopefully, it will play, sound and operate better than all of those.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 04:43 PM

Now you see it and now you don't ! I'm getting a little fed-up with these "marketing" practices directed by corporate Kawai. I'm only this close to ordering an FP7F or RD700NX . What is this ? Seek and hide ? Are we living in the 21st century or still in the pre-internet age Kawai ?

I think they didn't expect that when they posted the so called release on the Japanese website that the word would spread ?? It's 2010 and when you post something it's out over the world in 60 sec. Then people want to know three things: what is it ? how much does it cost me ? when can I have it ? So every modern company has these three questions covered with the release on their websites, marketing material and for the dealerships. What on earth is Kawai doing ; if they didn't want people to know they shouldn't have announced it, if they DO want people to know, then they should have the mentioned information ready for the people, so they will be properly informed and lets hope BUY the product.

I'm seriously starting to reconsider my next purchase because of the way things are (not) being communicated. Roland becomes more interesting everyday ; at least I know exactly what I get, what it costs and by good estimate when I can have it. Can live without the RM-keys if I have to, PHA-III isn't complete rubbish and you get the same SN in ALL models.

J
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 05:47 PM

I don't think the "now you see it now you don't" aspects are intentional marketing practices, more by-products of control paranoia. It would seem that they are nervous about bits of information getting out without an express say-so from HQ. Trouble is, there doesn't, as you suggest, seem to be much coordination going on.

More to the point, where's the big problem in letting us all know exactly what is going on? Is it going to give anyone a competitive advantage? I doubt it: the lead time on these products is too great for Roland or Yamaha to be able to do much in the way of spoiling tactics.

As for the sound engine, I have said on a number of occasions that it seems counter-productive to dumb down the lighter-weight model, as that is likely to push purchasers towards a company that puts its best engine in almost its entire new range. People who put down $xxxx on stage pianos are serious purchasers and don't deserve to be treated as puppets for marketing puppeteers who want to try to "control" the market.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 06:10 PM

If they only want to sell the RM3 keybed as the most wanted and best feature of the Kawai's, they may as well put it in a silent masterkeyboard (aka Roland A80, the old KX88and such) and leave the whole sound engine out altogether. You can't replace good hardware when you're talking about keybeds and such, but the chip technology and sound engine are replaceable in the digital age of 2010. I think that discussion has taken place already (PHI, instead of UPHI in Mp6 and CA13). What really bothers me most now (again) is what's happening with the sales information. The fact that Sweetwater has to pull the info isn't a coincidence and in line with the anxious antique marketing Kawai shows; I don't care if it takes a while to build and ship these units - I just want to know if I can buy one, for how much and when. Just want to know. Is that sooooo hard ?! I know I'm repeating myself, but this last push/pull of info was really annoying...
Posted By: EmmaxDad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 11:00 PM

Thanks for posting the Sweetwater link. I managed to buy the MP6 before they removed the item. smile The salesman from Sweetwater called to confirm my order, so it seems the price and date are valid. He said Sweetwater "jumped the gun" putting it up for sale, so they had to take it down. He expected it to be back up for sale very soon.

My guess is that Kawai has a North American sale date that all retailers are supposed to abide by in order have a fair marketplace. It seems that day is coming shortly.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by EmmaxDad
Thanks for posting the Sweetwater link. I managed to buy the MP6 before they removed the item. smile The salesman from Sweetwater called to confirm my order, so it seems the price and date are valid. He said Sweetwater "jumped the gun" putting it up for sale, so they had to take it down. He expected it to be back up for sale very soon.


Well, congratulations! You're probably going to be the first North American recipient. As such, a great weight falls on your shoulders to tell the rest of us what it's really like. wink I hope for your sake as well as for us wannabes that it exceeds expectations!
Posted By: KHen

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/29/10 11:47 PM

Did they give you a ship date or when to expect the piano?
Posted By: EmmaxDad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 12:40 AM

The week of October 3rd which I took to mean October 8th.
Posted By: EmmaxDad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Well, congratulations! You're probably going to be the first North American recipient. As such, a great weight falls on your shoulders to tell the rest of us what it's really like. wink I hope for your sake as well as for us wannabes that it exceeds expectations!


If it's anything like the day we got our Kawai RX-2, my wrists will be too sore to type on the computer. smile (Can you tell I'm a Kawai fanboy?)
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by EmmaxDad
Originally Posted by voxpops
Well, congratulations! You're probably going to be the first North American recipient. As such, a great weight falls on your shoulders to tell the rest of us what it's really like. wink I hope for your sake as well as for us wannabes that it exceeds expectations!


If it's anything like the day we got our Kawai RX-2, my wrists will be too sore to type on the computer. smile (Can you tell I'm a Kawai fanboy?)


Oh, you lucky, lucky person! I'd love to have a Kawai grand (and the space for one!). Ever since I first tried a Kawai acoustic back in the late 70s, I've held them in high esteem. I so much prefer their tone to Yamaha. That's one of the reasons I so want the new MPs to live up to that pedigree.
Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 03:24 AM


It is difficult to say if it is a good price without knowing more about the technological specs or how the MP10 and MP6 play.

Price could play a key role in the success of these pianos.

Whatever the view of the MP5-MP8ii, those stage pianos really were an incredible (and oft overlooked) value. The MP5 was $1100. I often couldn't believe the folks purchasing P-85's over the MP5, without even considering the MP5. Yamaha has brand equity that Kawai simply does not have.

Prices do have a strong psychological effect. I recall seeing a recent wine-tasting study in which some psychologists changed the prices on bottles of wine and asked wine aficionados to taste the wines. The researchers found price played a strong role in perception and evaluation of the product's quality -- even affecting taste perception.

I assumed %1200-1300 for the MP6 and $2000-$2100 for the MP10. A price of $1500 for the MP6 and $2500 for the MP10 is considerably higher.

At those prices, the MP10 will need to be a better instrument than the RD700NX. The MP10 loses price advantage over Roland at $2500. That's a considerable loss, as their brand is not as well known with as strong a distributor network.

Like many here, I was waiting for Kawai's new stage pianos. I have always appreciated the design and warmer tone of their pianos (for all its technical usefulness, DPBSD does not capture warmth of tone). I am not as impatient as some, and I can wait to try them.

However, if 1500/2500 is the price point for MP6/10, I am going to take a longer/harder look at Roland RD700NX, which someone recently posted that a retailer listed at $2400. Roland seems to be getting a warmer, thicker tone with each generation. At those prices, even Yamaha CP5/CP50 deserves a second look, although to date their brighter tone of their acoustics and digitals has not been my taste.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 03:49 AM

I don't think it's just a price consideration, Scooby Hoo. The weight of the MP10 will figure in a lot of gigging musicians' assessments as well. The RD-700 series, while heavyish, are not out of the question for a lot of people, but add another 15 to 20lbs and players who have to move their piano unaided will probably think twice about the MP10, even if it's cheaper than the RD or CP5. Even the MP6 is quite chunky at over 50lbs, but hopefully that speaks to the build quality.

I agree about the MP5's value. (Unfortunately, I bought my RD0300SX just before the MP5 was released.) But I still think that up to $1,500 is reasonable for the new model - as long as the sound quality, action and build are all up to par.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
If they only want to sell the RM3 keybed as the most wanted and best feature of the Kawai's, they may as well put it in a silent masterkeyboard (aka Roland A80, the old KX88and such) and leave the whole sound engine out altogether.


Interesting thought.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 08:44 AM

I would be much more interested in the high-end sound module only, with a similar control layout! thumb

It is also much lighter to carry. wink
Posted By: e440

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 02:32 PM

That's wierd since the launch date is in the month of December according to the japanese website Kawai.co.jp

not to crush your hopes or anything
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Originally Posted by JFP
If they only want to sell the RM3 keybed as the most wanted and best feature of the Kawai's, they may as well put it in a silent masterkeyboard (aka Roland A80, the old KX88and such) and leave the whole sound engine out altogether.


Interesting thought.


I would buy such a product in an instant. (And I don't think I'm alone with this.)

[Edit: since computer technology (and thus, software pianos) advance so fast, I guess most users are going to replace the built-in sound engine at some point, so in the end, on the long term, it's just dead weight. I could certainly live without it.
Now, the speakers are a different matter... but since noone is willing to sell a unit with speakers, but without sound engine, I would go with the MIDI controller direction... if only Kawai had one.]
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
I would buy such a product in an instant. (And I don't think I'm alone with this.)

Too bad the big manufacturers have essentially given up on modules and controllers.

Originally Posted by Csillag
[Edit: since computer technology (and thus, software pianos) advance so fast, I guess most users are going to replace the built-in sound engine at some point, so in the end, on the long term, it's just dead weight. I could certainly live without it.

We're really there in terms of speed, availability, and cost of DP technology that would be useful over the long-term.

Just make something like the Nord Piano, but with at least 10x the Flash ROM space (would add $5 max to the price) or USB3 drive port. Then either support it really well like Nord is doing, or (preferably) let the open source programmers at it. One could easily be satisfied with that for decades.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 09/30/10 11:26 PM

Good morning chaps,

I believe the following information should answer most of your queries regarding availability of these new MP models outside of Japan:

MP6
Information release: October 4th
Availability in stores: Early November

MP10
Information release: October 25th
Availability in stores: Early December

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/01/10 12:18 AM

That's helpful. Thanks, James.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/01/10 12:53 AM

Ah, good to know, thanks James!

Aaron
Posted By: Bluestone

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/01/10 05:15 PM

Just make something like the Nord Piano, but with at least 10x the Flash ROM space (would add $5 max to the price) or USB3 drive port. Then either support it really well like Nord is doing, or (preferably) let the open source programmers at it. One could easily be satisfied with that for decades.

Dewster: Never were truer words spoken! When buying instruments, keyboard players are compelled to pay dear money for incremental upgrades in both storage space, ROM memory or, indeed, in most other signifcant features. I'm positive absolute killer axes already exist in labratories only to be released years from now 'in due course'. An electronic musician,alas, cannot fall back on a vintage rig like guitarists can. At least not for his DP department. There's too much business thinking standing in the way of real progress in,say, digital pianos.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/01/10 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bluestone
There's too much business thinking standing in the way of real progress in,say, digital pianos.

I agree. Unfortunately, since Harold Rhodes, there has not been anyone interested in developing an electric piano to its full potential simply because of a passionate interest in the subject and its challenges. That field has been ceded to the corporate giants who have a different agenda.

I suppose what Bob Moog and David Smith did for the world of synthesis is now being done by piano-software gurus in the form of modeling etc. It's just that there hasn't been a true marriage between their work and hardware implementation. (GEM came close to this kind of union, developing instruments based on the research that was done at the University of Padova). I suppose Nord is the nearest present-day equivalent, but they are still astute businessmen, and in order to survive I expect they need to be.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/01/10 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
Just make something like the Nord Piano, but with at least 10x the Flash ROM space (would add $5 max to the price) or USB3 drive port. Then either support it really well like Nord is doing, or (preferably) let the open source programmers at it. One could easily be satisfied with that for decades.

Unfortunately, the last sentence guarantees that what you ask for won't happen - at least not from a company with shareholders to satisfy. They would like you to replace your DP every couple of years, if not sooner.

What I don't quite understand, though, is why, as a DP manufacturer, you wouldn't want all your products to sound as good as they possibly can. And with software on small circuit boards, there is no real cost-saving to the manufacturer in not putting their best wares in every model. The price differential should surely come from different actions, better amps and speakers, more buttons and sliders etc. This dumbing-down annoys the heck out of me (as James knows), and puts me off buying certain products. Casio doesn't do it, and they work on much slimmer margins, so why should Kawai and Yamaha? (I reserve judgment on Roland - they have done that in the past - I'll wait and see what the full new range looks like.)
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 04:57 AM

I had a bit of a go on the MP10 this morning ....
A few observations would be that its ...well massive 30kgs at least.
Looks VERY solid and well built and would no doubt be tough enough to withstand heavy use and gigging. Its also very attractive , not grey at all but black. The interface seems easy to use and intuitive but you cannot layer 2 pianos which is odd. The action is excellent and VERY similar to the RD700NX action. Close your eyes and your playing a grand ...its that good. From what I was able to make out in a very noisy enviroment the sound stands up very well. Its far richer then a Yamaha but nothing like the RD700NX. I'd have to spend time with decent headphones to get further impressions but on first listen it sounded quite good indeed.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 05:53 AM

Dr Popper, I had a chance to play a Kawai CP209 (same RM3 action as the MP10) and a Roland RD-700GX side-by-side. I found the actions quite different. I think they are both fantastic, but prefer the Kawai action.

Do you think the RD-700NX action is closer to the MP10 or closer to the older RD-700GX?
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Dr Popper, I had a chance to play a Kawai CP209 (same RM3 action as the MP10) and a Roland RD-700GX side-by-side. I found the actions quite different. I think they are both fantastic, but prefer the Kawai action.

Do you think the RD-700NX action is closer to the MP10 or closer to the older RD-700GX?


Yes the NX is a different action then the GX. I found the NX and MP10 to be both very good but similar rather then different. I think a classical player would prefer the MP10 and a jazz/rock player the NX. Jury's out on sound comparisons. I couldn't pretend to offer a informed opinion in the noisy atmosphere I was in. Sounded ok I think but I'd need more time.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper


Yes the NX is a different action then the GX.


That's very interesting - I have been assuming that the NX would be mechanically equivalent to the GX, but with the third sensor for improved repetition. I had no evidence whatsoever to support this assumption though. smile

Greg.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Yes the NX is a different action then the GX. I found the NX and MP10 to be both very good but similar rather then different. I think a classical player would prefer the MP10 and a jazz/rock player the NX. Jury's out on sound comparisons. I couldn't pretend to offer a informed opinion in the noisy atmosphere I was in. Sounded ok I think but I'd need more time.


Thanks Dr Popper. I was ready to pull the trigger on an MP10 as soon as it was available, but now I'm thinking I'll have to find an RD-700NX to try out.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Yes the NX is a different action then the GX. I found the NX and MP10 to be both very good but similar rather then different. I think a classical player would prefer the MP10 and a jazz/rock player the NX.


Actually, judging by the unscientific responses so far on this board of those who actually pull the trigger on and actually buy either a PHA-III based dp from Roland versus one with the RM3 keyboard from Kawai after having performed side-by-side auditions, the classical pianists seem to prefer the Roland.

This may have to do with faster repetition and realistic escapement simulation available on the Roland or with the very direct and organic feeling of the coupling between the keyboard and the actual sound produced. Particularly on the VPiano and to a lesser extent on the HP-307, it is possible to articulate just about anything you want.

Of course, it is very difficult to completely separate the feel of the keyboard from the actual sound produced and pretend to be able to judge them independently. For those playing classical repertoire, the dependable polyphony algorithms, the natural sounding decay, the fatter Steinway like sound and the overall realism of the SuperNatural Piano engine from Roland seems to show better than the drier, more sterile, less life like UPHI from Kawai.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney


Of course, it is very difficult to completely separate the feel of the keyboard from the actual sound produced and pretend to be able to judge them independently. For those playing classical repertoire, the dependable polyphony algorithms, the natural sounding decay, the fatter Steinway like sound and the overall realism of the SuperNatural Piano engine from Roland seems to show better than the drier, more sterile, less life like UPHI from Kawai.


That's a really subjective thing ... for me personally neither is the best action for my type of music ... I much prefer the CP1's action but I do play a LOT of house style piano and a lot of EP's. If I had to pick a action for my style I'd pick the Roland, if I had to pick a sound ...I'd pick the Kawai.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by theJourney


Of course, it is very difficult to completely separate the feel of the keyboard from the actual sound produced and pretend to be able to judge them independently. For those playing classical repertoire, the dependable polyphony algorithms, the natural sounding decay, the fatter Steinway like sound and the overall realism of the SuperNatural Piano engine from Roland seems to show better than the drier, more sterile, less life like UPHI from Kawai.


That's a really subjective thing ... for me personally neither is the best action for my type of music ... I much prefer the CP1's action but I do play a LOT of house style piano and a lot of EP's. If I had to pick a action for my style I'd pick the Roland, if I had to pick a sound ...I'd pick the Kawai.


I agree it is subjective and therefore important for people to really audition the instruments side by side, which for many is very difficult if not impossible.

If I play with my eyes closed and the sound off not knowing which keyboard is in front of me, I marginally prefer the RM3. As soon as I play music with headphones, I prefer the PHA-III. Go figure.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
What I don't quite understand, though, is why, as a DP manufacturer, you wouldn't want all your products to sound as good as they possibly can. And with software on small circuit boards, there is no real cost-saving to the manufacturer in not putting their best wares in every model. The price differential should surely come from different actions, better amps and speakers, more buttons and sliders etc. This dumbing-down annoys the heck out of me (as James knows), and puts me off buying certain products. Casio doesn't do it, and they work on much slimmer margins, so why should Kawai and Yamaha?


That's a huge assumption, "with software on small circuit boards, there is no real cost-saving to the manufacturer in not putting their best wares in every model." What does size have to do with it? By that logic, a 32 gb SD card should cost no more than a 2 gb SD card. I would certainly allow for the possibility that the better sound engine requires more memory, a more powerful processor, possible additional circuitry, and of course, there are development costs as well, and you can't build additional high-end R&D costs into lower priced models (unless you want to raise their price and make them less competitive).

As to the fact that Casio doesn't do it, there are two ways of looking at that. Your perspective is that they put their best piano sound in even their basic model; you can just as easily say they put their worst piano sound in their best model. That's the result of the slimmer margins. If you only have the budget to develop one new piano sound, that's what goes into all your models. And it's not the world's greatest piano sound. I'm sure Kawai could have saved money by similarly putting the MP6 piano sound into the MP10.

One other thing is clear from this thread though:

* There are people who want the best possible built-in sound for gigs, who bemoan the fact that they have to buy a very expensive and--worse--very heavy MP10 to get the sound they want.

* There are people who want the best possible keybed and don't care about the sound engine, figuring they can always get the sound they want via computer, and can easily upgrade the sound that way at any time, whereas the keybed is not upgradeable. These people would benefit from an MP10 with minimal or no sounds at all.

Kawai--or someone--should come out with a modular series of pianos, where you pick the keyboard and sound engine separately. Imagine three keyboards... one with the MP10 action, one with the MP6 action, and one that is really light weight, each with an opening into which you slide the separately purchased sound engine (or none at all). So you could pick and choose what you need... get the best keybed without necessarily having to pay the cost of premium sounds; or get the lightest weight portable without having to sacrifice sound quality; or whatever combination of action/weight, sound, and price that fits you best, without their having to actually manufacture that many different models.I could also imagine someone buying a single sound module, which they could move between their big, heavy, great feeling keyboard in their studio and the light portable board they gig with.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 02:13 PM

This modular design already exists; this is basically what MIDI controllers and MIDI-controlled sound modules are for.

(And yes, one can use the same sound module for a bunch of different keyboards.)

Unfortunately, big manufacturers do not seem to consider this a good deal lately; I am afraid the reason of this is _exactly_ that this would be a good deal for us, the customers; it seems to me that they actually _want_ to force us into buying their expensive sound engines, despite the fact they know we don't need it.

(I don't think this reasining is valid, even from a business-oriented point of view, though.)

(I would be glad to be proven wrong about this, for example my Roland releasing a PHA-III MIDI controller, or Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 02:40 PM

Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.


How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
By that logic, a 32 gb SD card should cost no more than a 2 gb SD card. I would certainly allow for the possibility that the better sound engine requires more memory, a more powerful processor, possible additional circuitry...

I know you are only using the SD card size as an example, but we would all run screaming to the nearest Guitar Center for the first DP to have even 2 GB sample capacity. Something that sells for $5 retail, which means the parts cost is around $1-$2.

And I think we're over the bigger processor / extra circuitry hump - even DPs dangerously skirting the toy category seem to have adequate polyphony.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
... and of course, there are development costs as well, and you can't build additional high-end R&D costs into lower priced models (unless you want to raise their price and make them less competitive).

Casio puts a fairly adequate piano sound in all of their products - and when considering the price and the competition, the sound is pretty fantastic. I think Casio's marketing department is rather quaintly old fashioned. They don't seem to have fully grasped the modern artificial product tiering process that manufacturers of almost everything imaginable foist on us.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
As to the fact that Casio doesn't do it, there are two ways of looking at that. Your perspective is that they put their best piano sound in even their basic model; you can just as easily say they put their worst piano sound in their best model. That's the result of the slimmer margins. If you only have the budget to develop one new piano sound, that's what goes into all your models. And it's not the world's greatest piano sound. I'm sure Kawai could have saved money by similarly putting the MP6 piano sound into the MP10.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kawai could actually come out ahead (by saving on R&D / inventory / tracking / etc.) if they put the same MP10 guts and sounds in the MP6. But then their MSRPs would look stupid. I not trying to single Kawai out here, they all do it to one extent or another.

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I could also imagine someone buying a single sound module, which they could move between their big, heavy, great feeling keyboard in their studio and the light portable board they gig with.

They heyday of controllers and sound modules seems to be coming to a close. I partially blame manufacturers for not getting together and updating the creaky old MIDI standard.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.


How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10?

Cheers,
James
x


I would be very happy to pay half the price of the MP10.

I would probably seriously consider buying it even if the price went up to 70% of the price of the MP10. (But the sweet spot would definitly be around 50%.)

(The same goes for an RH midi controller, compared to the MP6.)

Best wishes:

Csillag
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by voxpops
What I don't quite understand, though, is why, as a DP manufacturer, you wouldn't want all your products to sound as good as they possibly can. And with software on small circuit boards, there is no real cost-saving to the manufacturer in not putting their best wares in every model. The price differential should surely come from different actions, better amps and speakers, more buttons and sliders etc. This dumbing-down annoys the heck out of me (as James knows), and puts me off buying certain products. Casio doesn't do it, and they work on much slimmer margins, so why should Kawai and Yamaha?


That's a huge assumption, "with software on small circuit boards, there is no real cost-saving to the manufacturer in not putting their best wares in every model." What does size have to do with it? By that logic, a 32 gb SD card should cost no more than a 2 gb SD card. I would certainly allow for the possibility that the better sound engine requires more memory, a more powerful processor, possible additional circuitry, and of course, there are development costs as well, and you can't build additional high-end R&D costs into lower priced models (unless you want to raise their price and make them less competitive).

I was simplifying to make a point, but what I was having a go at is the ridiculous notion that the smaller, lighter product HAS to be the least capable. Manufacturers (apart from Nord) have failed to grasp the differing requirements of gigging musicians when it comes to their stage boards. A few years ago I bought a Roland RD-300SX. I wanted the sound of the 700 but I needed to keep weight and bulk down, so I had to buy a board with less capability and poorer sound. Why?

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Kawai--or someone--should come out with a modular series of pianos, where you pick the keyboard and sound engine separately. Imagine three keyboards... one with the MP10 action, one with the MP6 action, and one that is really light weight, each with an opening into which you slide the separately purchased sound engine (or none at all). So you could pick and choose what you need... get the best keybed without necessarily having to pay the cost of premium sounds; or get the lightest weight portable without having to sacrifice sound quality; or whatever combination of action/weight, sound, and price that fits you best, without their having to actually manufacture that many different models.I could also imagine someone buying a single sound module, which they could move between their big, heavy, great feeling keyboard in their studio and the light portable board they gig with.

This is exactly the solution that's needed, IMO! Kudos and thanks, anotherscott grin
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.


How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10?

Cheers,
James
x

Not just an RM3 midi controller but, as anotherscott has suggested, an RM3 controller AND an MP6-like controller, both with the option to slot in Kawai's different sound engines. Use Audio and CME got together to allow the Plugiator synth to slot into a CME controller - simple and effective!
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.
How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10
I would be very happy to pay half the price of the MP10.

I would probably seriously consider buying it even if the price went up to 70% of the price of the MP10. (But the sweet spot would definitly be around 50%.)
50% would be a great price. I'm in it for the action. The sound for me is secondary. My primary use is a MIDI controller.

Considering that the new CA13 will retail at about 75% of the MP10 price, I think 70% is about the upper end of the reasonable price range. Really, a bare bones CA13 without sounds, stripped of speakers, amplifier, etc, and without all that wood should be in the 50-60% range compared to an MP10 and still give Kawai the same margin.

Considering that a CME VX80 goes for about $1000 USD, this would still be a premium product. Perhaps Kawai doesn't think it could profit at a low enough price point to make it an attractive alternative to cheaper controllers.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Originally Posted by Csillag
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.
How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10
I would be very happy to pay half the price of the MP10.

I would probably seriously consider buying it even if the price went up to 70% of the price of the MP10. (But the sweet spot would definitly be around 50%.)
50% would be a great price. I'm in it for the action. The sound for me is secondary. My primary use is a MIDI controller.

Considering that the new CA13 will retail at about 75% of the MP10 price, I think 70% is about the upper end of the reasonable price range. Really, a bare bones CA13 without sounds, stripped of speakers, amplifier, etc, and without all that wood should be in the 50-60% range compared to an MP10 and still give Kawai the same margin.

Considering that a CME VX80 goes for about $1000 USD, this would still be a premium product. Perhaps Kawai doesn't think it could profit at a low enough price point to make it an attractive alternative to cheaper controllers.


I think that even if Kawai could not directly profit much (which I am not sure about; I mean who know what is the cost of producing a keyboard?), it could still be a wise move, because (if the pricing is right) this model would _own_ the controller market, and thus elevate the visibility of the whole Kawai brand. (A lot of people only know about Roland and Yamaha.) If everybody knew how great the Kawai action was, I think the sales of the higher-end products would go up, too.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
This modular design already exists; this is basically what MIDI controllers and MIDI-controlled sound modules are for.

Yes and no. True, you can buy soundless keyboard controllers and connect them to (typically rack-mounted) modules, though more so in the past than today. The limitation, compared to what I'm talking about, is that the rack modules are not very performance-friendly. I like the idea of something that can be made integral to the keyboard units so that the knobs and displays are all where you want them to be, designed so that it still looks like a single piece, moves in one piece, doesn't require extra cabling, etc.

Taking this off in another tangent, while in general I'd like to see this kind of approach, it doesn't actually completely address the MP6/MP10 dichotomy, because the MP6 actually does a bunch of things the MP10 doesn't. It's not as simple as looking at the MP10 as having a better action and better piano sound than the MP6. The MP6 also has a bunch of advantages over the MP10, as a MIDI controller and in the additional sounds available. Even if you can deal with the price and the weight, you actually can't get it all in one keyboard. In other words, even if they offered an MP6 or an MP10 drop-in module that could be mated to either the MP6 or MP10 keyboard, you still wouldn't necessarily be able to get everything you want. People may want all the features of the MP6, but with the best piano sound possible, and no such combination even exists.

Nord has the same problem. You can look at the Electro 3 and decide you want to upgrade to the Stage EX for all its extra features (multitimbral, zoning/MIDI controller functions, VA synth section, 88 weighted keys, aftertouch, pitch bend and mod wheel, better piano implementations with string resonance)... but then you discover that you're also giving some things up, since the Stage does not have the sample playback engine that's in the E3, and its organ engine is one generation behind. It's frustrating when you're ready and willing to spend money for an upgraded model and then find that you're also going to have to give up features that were in the lower priced model!
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
They heyday of controllers and sound modules seems to be coming to a close. I partially blame manufacturers for not getting together and updating the creaky old MIDI standard.


I don't think MIDI is the bottleneck. What can a "regular" keyboard do, that a controller keyboard combined with a module would be unable to do due to a MIDI limitation? The fact that most keyboards can indeed function as "oversized sound modules" by driving them from another keyboard via MIDI makes me think MIDI is no limitation at all.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I don't think MIDI is the bottleneck. What can a "regular" keyboard do, that a controller keyboard combined with a module would be unable to do due to a MIDI limitation? The fact that most keyboards can indeed function as "oversized sound modules" by driving them from another keyboard via MIDI makes me think MIDI is no limitation at all.

The MIDI BAUD rate is 31.25kHz. Since it takes 10 bits to transmit a byte, the byte rate is 3.125kHz. Note-on takes 3 bytes (command, note, velocity) so we're down to around 1kHz, which is 1 ms.

Call me crazy, but that kind of delay is starting to become significant. And this is to just play a single note, if you play a bunch at once along with a continuous damper pedal and maybe a mod or pitch wheel change, I can imagine there will be scenarios where the delay becomes noticeable to the player.

I'd favor an interface that was faster and bidirectional, and able to support stereo audio as well, while still electrically isolating the things being connected from each other. It could still use a five pin connector (balanced RX & TX, ground) though perhaps not standard MIDI DIN or cabling.

None of this is rocket science, and should have been addressed at least a decade ago. I believe the aging MIDI standard is one of the main reasons controllers and sound modules are disappearing.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
The MIDI BAUD rate is 31.25kHz. Since it takes 10 bits to transmit a byte, the byte rate is 3.125kHz. Note-on takes 3 bytes (command, note, velocity) so we're down to around 1kHz, which is 1 ms.

Call me crazy, but that kind of delay is starting to become significant. And this is to just play a single note, if you play a bunch at once along with a continuous damper pedal and maybe a mod or pitch wheel change, I can imagine there will be scenarios where the delay becomes noticeable to the player.


This has been the case for 30 years. MIDI delay is no worse now than it was then, milliseconds aren't longer now. Most people didn't find it to be an issue, I don't think it's the reason modules have fallen out of favor, I don't think today's equipment is "over taxing" MIDI compared to 10 or 20 years ago.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I don't think MIDI is the bottleneck. What can a "regular" keyboard do, that a controller keyboard combined with a module would be unable to do due to a MIDI limitation? The fact that most keyboards can indeed function as "oversized sound modules" by driving them from another keyboard via MIDI makes me think MIDI is no limitation at all.
MIDI is fairly limited in the way it describes how you're playing. 127 velocity levels with note on and note off is only one part of the equation. 127 levels certainly could be improved, but I don't know that there's much perceptible difference between 64 and 64.5. I think there are multiple parameters that escape MIDI (and sensors in modern actions), such as how fast the upstroke is (eg staccato vs legato). Exactly how far the key was released before restriking is another example. Basically, MIDI doesn't have the capacity to describe all the parameters that define the sound. Bösendorfer CEUS is a good example of something more precise than MIDI in describing what was played.

I think a better standard that can be used to communicate info between devices would be needed for something like CEUS. Something like EuCon from Euphonix, but not proprietary.

All that said, I'm quite content with MIDI. Where I think the biggest opportunity for improvement is in the making things more modular, as you suggest. If Kawai built a controller that had expandability options in the form of add-on cards, I probably wouldn't buy the add-ons. But if it made it attractive enough to bring to market, I'd be content paying $100 more for that unused functionality rather than $1000 more for everything else that comes standard today.

Originally Posted by Csillag
I think that even if Kawai could not directly profit much (which I am not sure about; I mean who know what is the cost of producing a keyboard?), it could still be a wise move, because (if the pricing is right) this model would _own_ the controller market, and thus elevate the visibility of the whole Kawai brand. (A lot of people only know about Roland and Yamaha.) If everybody knew how great the Kawai action was, I think the sales of the higher-end products would go up, too.
I think that a controller from Kawai would be a premium product, and would justify a slightly higher price point than the competition. Considering how many people buy an MP series or RD-700 series stage piano, just to use it as a controller, I think there's a pretty big sweet spot in pricing. Cheaper enough compared to these stage pianos, but better enough in terms of action that it justifies paying a little more than a typical controller.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
None of this is rocket science, and should have been addressed at least a decade ago. I believe the aging MIDI standard is one of the main reasons controllers and sound modules are disappearing.
I agree, Dewster. I think MIDI just isn't the right language to describe the nuance of playing. It already is bordering on inadequate in terms of latency for the amount of data that can be described in MIDI. If you threw in additional data with more resolution, there would be a latency nightmare.

I think there's a bit of a chicken an egg problem. No one makes modules that can reflect all the nuance of playing (V-piano may be the closest exception, but it's certainly no module). And no one makes a controller that can communicate all that info.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 09:01 PM

We seem to be quite a bit off the original topic. Is there a way to move this discussion to a new thread?
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Kawai releasing an RM3 midi controller.


How much would you propose that such an product should cost, relative to the MP10?

Cheers,
James
x


I would be very happy to pay half the price of the MP10.



Or, here is an other product idea I would love:

- Take a CA63 (costs around the same as an MP10)
- Remove any sound generation
- Keep the cabinet, the speakers and the amp (and keys, of course)
- Sell at 75% of the original price.

The resulting product would be (in both appearance and price) very similary to the CA-13, only much better, because this would have a line-in, which the CA13 is lacking. (Thus anchoring the amp & speakers to the outdated PHI sound generation, without any possibility of de-coupling.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
- Take a CA63 (costs around the same as an MP10)
- Remove any sound generation
- Keep the cabinet, the speakers and the amp (and keys, of course)
- Sell at 75% of the original price.


Interesting suggestion, but how many instruments do you honestly think we would sell compared to the regular CA63?

I'm not doubting that there is demand for such a product - it would be the ideal solution for yourself, and perhaps a handful of other, more technically-oriented consumers who are familiar with MIDI and Pianoteq, Ivory, etc. However, for the mass-market of digital piano consumers - those who simply wish to sit down at an instrument, turn it on, and start playing - a tone generator-less digital piano would be almost impossible to market.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
I think there are multiple parameters that escape MIDI (and sensors in modern actions), such as how fast the upstroke is (eg staccato vs legato).


Release velocity is a standard MIDI parameter.

To clarify, I'm not saying that MIDI cannot be improved; I'm just saying that I don't think its limitations are a factor in why more companies aren't marketing more modules.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
I think there are multiple parameters that escape MIDI (and sensors in modern actions), such as how fast the upstroke is (eg staccato vs legato).


Release velocity is a standard MIDI parameter.

To clarify, I'm not saying that MIDI cannot be improved; I'm just saying that I don't think its limitations are a factor in why more companies aren't marketing more modules.


My ignorance revealed! The question then is do any keyboards measure it? And is it used to shape the sound in any modules/software pianos?
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/03/10 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Csillag
- Take a CA63 (costs around the same as an MP10)
- Remove any sound generation
- Keep the cabinet, the speakers and the amp (and keys, of course)
- Sell at 75% of the original price.


Interesting suggestion, but how many instruments do you honestly think we would sell compared to the regular CA63?

I'm not doubting that there is demand for such a product - it would be the ideal solution for yourself, and perhaps a handful of other, more technically-oriented consumers who are familiar with MIDI and Pianoteq, Ivory, etc. However, for the mass-market of digital piano consumers - those who simply wish to sit down at an instrument, turn it on, and start playing - a tone generator-less digital piano would be almost impossible to market.

Kind regards,
James
x


Dear James,

It's probably true that there is no huge demand for such product, but please consider the following two points:

1. The keyboards (and the rest of the instrument) is likely to be useful for at least ten years long. Meanwhile, the developments in computer technology (and sound modelling) do not seem to slow down. On the contrary: we will get better and better virtual instruments. Five years for now, a lot of users of current instruments will want to get these benefits, without tossing out their (otherwise) perfectly good instruments. I thing these trends should be taken into account when manufacruting an instrument in the 21th centuary.

2. I do not need a whole new model: I would be (basically) satisfied with just a line-in on the CA13, to make it more future-proof. Would that be so difficult?

Best wishes:

Csillag
Posted By: Gatsbee13

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 12:21 AM

i was wondering if anyone knew the US release date for the MP10.. i know the release date for the MP6 is 10-6-2010 according to MusiciansFriend.com.. also, is the action different on the MP10 as opposed to MP6? i read the description for the MP6 and it didnt mention anything about RM3 action, which as you all know is found on the MP10. also, the keys on the MP10 are wood keys correct? MP6 has plastic keys. any info would be greatly appreciated as I am looking to buy soon.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 12:45 AM

The MP6 has plastic RH (Responsive Hammer) action with let-off simulation. The exact same action is used in the CN33.

(In contrast, the MP10 uses the same wooden action (RM3 with let-off simulation) which is used in the CA93.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 12:51 AM

Gatsbee13, I believe there may have been some mistakes in the information posted on one or two of the main retailers' websites.

Please refer to the PDF linked at the very top of this thread for the correct specifications of both instruments.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 12:44 PM

@Kawai James

Any change of a CA-13 v2 with audio-IN ?! I think they messed up a little there. If the sound engine is deliberately underperforming (UPH instead of UPHI and restricted polyphony) you might want to use another sound sooner or later and hook up a computer. I think a sound-In component wouldn't make the factory price that much higher for Kawai ?

And if not - do you think it is possible to add an audio-IN yourself. In other words ; is there already a secret input inherited from the CA-63 that is hidden inside the instrument and you can access in a little DIY project ? Of course you would be prohibited to tell such a thing , but a hint would be welcome. Considering a CA for home use because of the RM3 - but I'm hold back because of the combination of an inferior sound engine AND no audio-IN to circumvent that. It's in exactly those details that the instruments from Roland keep on being such attractive alternatives (e.g. FP7F).

CA-63 is no alternative to me, too expensive in comparison and to many extra sounds and other stuff I don't really need.

Back to the MP-series - still no information update on sites or in shops over here, but the day is still not over ;-)

Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:03 PM

MP6 page in English is here: http://www.kawai.de/mp6_en.htm
Direct link to the manual: http://www.kawai.de/service/mp6_e.pdf

Aaron
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
@Kawai James

Any change of a CA-13 v2 with audio-IN ?! I think they messed up a little there. If the sound engine is deliberately underperforming (UPH instead of UPHI and restricted polyphony) you might want to use another sound sooner or later and hook up a computer. I think a sound-In component wouldn't make the factory price that much higher for Kawai ?


I think the referenced sound engine is called PHI (the line up is this: HI < PHI < UPHI); other than that, I agree completely.

The choice of the sound engine can be consider reasonable as both a cost save and a differentiator between the entry level model and the higher models, but omitting the line-in really kicks this instument in the balls.

I have not thought of adding the line-in myself, but now this makes some sense. Someone should take one apart and check how strongly the amp and the sound engine are integrated.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:25 PM

Thanks for the links. Any price / ordering info yet for Europe ? That's what interests me the most; the specs were already know more or less...

As for the lack of sound-input on CA13. Yep; dealbreaker (for me at least...) !
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by JFP

As for the lack of sound-input on CA13. Yep; dealbreaker (for me at least...) !


The same here.. however, see the separate thread about this, here .
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:44 PM

JFP,

For the sake of clarity, may I suggest that you raise your queries regarding the CA13 in this thread.

Kind regards,
James
x

EDIT: Ah, I see that Csillag has already started a new thread to cover this topic.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:48 PM

MP10 manual! : http://www.kawai.de/service/mp10_e.pdf

I've updated the first post with these links as well.

Aaron
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:49 PM

On topic then, three questions;

is the acoustic piano sound on the MP6 the same / better / worse than on the CA-13 ?
is the acoustic piano sound on the MP10 the same / better / worse than on the CA63/93 ?
do the pedals on the MP6 feature full 'half damping' (dynamic pedaling) support. Couldn't find that in the specs / manual.

I ask because on the CA13 specs I saw that they are explicitly talking about half damping in 8 phases and for the ca63 in 128 phases. I wondered if there were similar distinctions in MP6 /MP10 ?

Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:52 PM

James, good job on the manuals by the way. It's definitely nice to read something that doesn't sound machine-translated smile

Aaron
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
is the acoustic piano sound on the MP10 the same / better / worse than on the CA63/93?

Same: some of the piano sounds are the same and both use the latest generation high-end UPHI sampling technology.

Better: several piano sounds are new with more options, better realtime control (knobs & sliders) and more extensive effects.

Worse: the MP10 does not support dual voice mode for dynamic sound layering of acoustic piano voices and has 'only' 27 voices in total, compared to the CA93/CA63's 80/60 voices.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 02:31 PM

JFP,

Quote
is the acoustic piano sound on the MP6 the same / better / worse than on the CA-13 ?


The MP6 and CA13 both utilise PHA sound technology. However the MP6 features additional new piano sounds, and a wide range of tonal adjustment parameters that are not found on the CA13.

Quote
is the acoustic piano sound on the MP10 the same / better / worse than on the CA63/93 ?


The MP10 and CA93/CA63 both utilise UPHI sound technology. However, as with the MP6 - and in fact, to a greater extent - the MP10 features new, more realistic piano sounds, and a wide range of tonal adjustment parameters that are not found on the CA93/CA63.

Quote
do the pedals on the MP6 feature full 'half damping' (dynamic pedaling) support. Couldn't find that in the specs / manual.


All Kawai instruments since the CN21 have featured half-dampening pedal support as standard.

Quote
I ask because on the CA13 specs I saw that they are explicitly talking about half damping in 8 phases and for the ca63 in 128 phases.


May I ask where you saw this information? It's not something that I recall off the top of my head.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 02:42 PM

Deffie,

Quote
James, good job on the manuals by the way. It's definitely nice to read something that doesn't sound machine-translated.


Thank you for the kind words. wink

I should point out that the MP6 owner's manual was largely an editing job to update the previous MP5 owner's manual - a case of "If it ain't broke..." you might say.

However, with the MP10 featuring a brand new UI, we were required to write a new manual from scratch. Yet, as Dr Popper noted previously, the interface is very intuitive, so the explanations practically wrote themselves.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Gatsbee13

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/04/10 06:47 PM

just spoke with someone at KawaiUS and they were speculating a early november release for the MP10 here in the states.. anyways, my local kawai dealer has a few rolands, the new ca-93 and 63, and acoustic pianos.. im bringing my M-Audio BX8a studio monitors to test the sound on the CA-63 and to decide whether i like the action better than the roland or yamaha. this should give me an idea if want to get the MP10
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 01:27 AM

MP10 the plus side ....

1) A moron with no DP experience could operate the MP10 within a few mins .... the interface is THAT simple and good.
2) The action is good ....very good .... excellent .... and VERY much like a real grand. Close your eyes and your there.
3) The sound Particularity the 7 foot which I suspect is patch 2 is excellent and unlike the supernatural doesn't need much tweaking to "cut through" in a mix.
4) Drum kit is easier to use then RD700NX/CP 5

MP10 the minus side ....

1) The strings and pads are "OK" but nothing special. Fine for layers which is their main use but thinner then I'd like. Probably could be tweaked onboard ..not sure.
2) You can't layer 2 of any category ... so no layer of AP on AP or EP on EP ...ok I guess they are tweakable but no layers of strings on strings is a mild issue.
3) It big ...its heavy .... did I mention its heavy? I mean its really heavy. Its better hire a roadie right now heavy. Its upgrade your suspension heavy .... but it is solid. Can't imagine anything breaking on it.

Would I recommend it ?
On action and interface ...yes ! Sounds are subjective but if you like Kawai grands (or Yamaha's for that matter) you will probably like this Piano a lot. The EP's are good too not class leading but seriously good. If you really like the Roland Supernatural sound your going to notice some major differences with this piano it doesn't have the darkness of the Roland out of the box but its tweakable. Personally being a fan of Japanese 7 foot pianos I find the sound extremely good.

The main plus .... its cheap ... really cheap for what it offers. Its a much more solidly built and I daresay that anyone lining this board up against its competitors will notice that straight away.

I'd say the MP 10 is more like a cross between a CP5 and a CP1 .... it doesn't have hundreds of sounds like the CP5 or few like the CP1 and can't do extreme layering. But gosh its nice to have around. If anything its going to make sure Yamaha and Roland keep developing their boards. It's a serious competitor in the market. And there lies the issue ... if Kawai can get their dealers and marketing up to speed it will be a success. sp far I think its fair to say Kawai have been very disappointing with their efforts in those areas but as James lets us know they are well aware of it and looking to improve. If they can do that I see no reason why they couldn't sell a lot more of the MP10 then they expect.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 01:29 AM

Another minus for the MP10 - it does not have a tri-sensor action for double-escapement simulation. The Roland does.

Greg.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Another minus for the MP10 - it does not have a tri-sensor action for double-escapement simulation. The Roland does.
I wasn't aware of that. I can't recall seeing anything from Kawai that talks about sensors. How can you tell?
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 04:08 AM

+1 here ....
I certainly noticed escapement samples and was under the impression it had a tri sensor as well.

James ? Want to clear this up ?

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Originally Posted by sullivang
Another minus for the MP10 - it does not have a tri-sensor action for double-escapement simulation. The Roland does.
I wasn't aware of that. I can't recall seeing anything from Kawai that talks about sensors. How can you tell?
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
James ? Want to clear this up ?

If he told you he'd probably have to kill you afterward, and I don't think knowing anything is worth that.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 04:19 AM

If it did, Kawai would have told us. smile

Besides, I had already asked about it here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1500902/New_Kawai_action_to_replace_AW.html (go to final posts in that thread)

and the answer seems to be "no". If it DID have the third sensor (or at least, the functionality), I think James would have chimed in back then and told us.

Nevertheless, if anyone wants to test it, do the following:

1. Turn the volume up quite high
2. Play a note forte, but do NOT lift off the key yet.
3. Slowly release the key, until the note terminates, but no further than this.
4. Note the point in the key travel at which the note terminates.
5. Lift off the key completely.
6. Repeat steps 2 to 5 as required to get a good feel for the note termination point.
7. Play a note forte again, and again, do not lift off.
8. Slowly release the key. This time, stop at a point JUST below the note termination point. Hold the key at this position with one finger.
9. With the OTHER hand, push down on the same key with a forte force.
10. If the action simulates double-escapement, you will hear a NEW NOTE, without the original note ever being terminated first. If it does not simulate double-escapement, you will merely hear the ORIGINAL note continue to decay.

The Roland PHAIII action, Yamaha GH3 (and above), and Casio tri-sensor actions all pass this test - I've tried it on all of them.

Greg.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 06:42 AM

If faster, usable, grand-like, double-escapement-simulated repetition is your goal, then PHA-III is your ticket.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 10:44 AM

After browsing the excellent MP10 manual: I remember suggesting (together with a lot of other stuff) a stereo width parameter for the CA93/CA63 and now the MP10 has it on board. shocked wink
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 10:52 AM

Note that I'm not saying that the Kawai's are necessarily slower than anything else just because they are missing the third sensor.
As I've said before, my Casio has it's middle (third) sensor in about the same position as my Kawai MP9000's top sensor, so all else being equal (which is unlikely, but let's assume so for simplicity), the repetition rate should be about the same.
However, the Casio may make it easier to play legato, due to the fact that it's top sensor (the Note-Off sensor) is higher up. I.e - the Note-Off would presumably be transmitted slightly later as the key is being released, reducing the period of silence inbetween each legato note.

Greg.
Posted By: rob755

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 05:44 PM

Hey James, Do you happen to know what Kawai road case (gig-bag type)I will need with an MP6?(Or any recommendation?) Would it be the same as fits the ES6? Might be a question others here might like to know as well..Thanks for your help. Rob
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 05:50 PM

Audio demos of the MP6 anyone?

http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp6_audio.html

Aaron
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie


Sounds great! I'd love to hear the new EP and the tonewheel organ sounds, too.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
However, the Casio may make it easier to play legato, due to the fact that it's top sensor (the Note-Off sensor) is higher up. I.e - the Note-Off would presumably be transmitted slightly later as the key is being released, reducing the period of silence inbetween each legato note.

Greg, I recently tried a bunch of GH3s on a variety of Yamaha DPs at the local dealer. I could just barely tell there were three sensors - the middle and top positions seemed to be very close together (approx. 1/2 way down IIRC with only a few mm between them). Has this been your experience with GH3?
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 07:27 PM

Dewster,
You asked me this question recently in another thread, and my answer is the same as before: yes, in my brief and hurried testing in the stores, I thought it was quite narrow, but when everything is taken into account, this may be the "right" way for it to be designed for Yamaha's action.

Cheers,
Greg.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 07:49 PM

Don't know about the sound demo's; must hear it for real, because with these demo's I hear 'MID MID MID' (frequency range) and especially for the Grand way to much BASS. I hope it's the MP3 and the original sounds as it should be - more balanced in frequency ranges. On these demo's it's more like a boom box with 'oversaturated' MID range...

Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/05/10 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
You asked me this question recently in another thread...

Oops, brain rot, very sorry.

Thanks for the response (again)!
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Deffie


Sounds great! I'd love to hear the new EP and the tonewheel organ sounds, too.

+1
The APs are nice - but as has been pointed out, it's a little difficult to get a true impression just from the files. It's the total package that will sway me one way or the other. If the APs, EPs and organs, together with the action, come within 10% of the new Rolands, then for around $1500 it's a good deal.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 01:59 AM

I like the sound of these pianos, and I can imagine that with all of the controls, we'll be about to create a wide range of variations and user presets.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 02:09 AM

rob755, the dimensions of the MP6 are identical to the MP5, therefore you should be fine to use the existing gig bag.

The gig bags marketed by Kawai America and Kawai Europe differ slightly in terms of appearance, however both offer a nice snug fit for the MP5/MP6.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Note that I'm not saying that the Kawai's are necessarily slower than anything else just because they are missing the third sensor.
I agree, but offer a different explanation.

From http://kawaius.com/main_links/Blog/Blog2010.html
Quote
This hammer then strikes an electronic sensor which tells the instrument’s electronics to create the sound.

The ability for faster repetition would be (as it is in a real piano) a matter of mechanics. By putting the sensor where the hammer strikes, Kawai obviated the need for a third sensor.

Of course, if the hammer in the RM3 can't re-strike without the key being lifted enough to trigger note off (damper falls), then the opportunity for improvement would be in the mechanics of the action. From the pictures, I can't tell how far up you have to lift the key before you can replay the note. If not possible in RM3, then maybe RM4.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
From the pictures, I can't tell how far up you have to lift the key before you can replay the note.


Does this help?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
From the pictures, I can't tell how far up you have to lift the key before you can replay the note.


Does this help?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the pictures were inadequate, I just can't visualize what the let-off mechanism does without seeing it in action in one of those plastic cutaways that they have at the store.

Does the let-off mechanism actually perform the same function as escapement, or is it purely for feel?

BTW, that is the clearest picture I've seen of the action. Thanks for the link!
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 03:54 AM

James,
Thanks! That changes everything. I can't tell much from the picture either, HOWEVER, it would be very strange if Kawai went to all that trouble and then designed it so that the key had to be released further than it does on a real piano in order to do a re-strike.

So, can someone with a CA93 just do the test I outlined above?

The next question is: do RM3-based actions send multiple Note-Ons for shallow repeats, without any intervening Note-Offs? (The Yamaha and Casio do, not sure about Roland yet)

I'm getting a distinct feeling that I was wrong about the RM3. I hope I don't end up in court. laugh

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 03:58 AM

AldoEsplay,

Quote
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the pictures were inadequate, I just can't visualize what the let-off mechanism does without seeing it in action in one of those plastic cutaways that they have at the store.


Ah, I see.

Indeed, I strongly recommend that you visit a Kawai dealer in order to play-test the 'RM3 Grand' action and to watch the mechanism moving inside the action sample model.

Quote
Does the let-off mechanism actually perform the same function as escapement, or is it purely for feel?


I believe it's largely to recreate the feeling. However, I gather a number of experienced pianists claim that the let-off simulation allows greater accuracy/control when playing pp/ppp.

Quote
BTW, that is the clearest picture I've seen of the action. Thanks for the link!


No problem. I believe that's a 20% resized version from the original. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay

The ability for faster repetition would be (as it is in a real piano) a matter of mechanics. By putting the sensor where the hammer strikes, Kawai obviated the need for a third sensor.


Upon reading the full blog entry, I'm not so sure the sensor is actually "hit" by the hammer. The reason I say this is, is because that blog entry does not appear to be specifically about the RM3 - it appears to be a general description of Kawai's wooden actions. (although, yes, they close by mentioning their latest action, being the RM3)

We've discussed this very issue before. In my Kawai M9000, the hammers themselves simply hit a pad, with the velocity sensing being performed by conventional means. Yes, the arms of the hammers do make contact with POSITION sensors, with the velocity being determined by the time interval between the two sensors being triggered. Unless the key is returned a certain amount (about 50%), it is impossible to retrigger another note - the hammers cannot return to a greater extent than the key position allows at any moment in time. This retrigger point is very definite - if the key does not return enough, no sound AT ALL can be produced with a re-strike.

Taken literally, that blog suggests that the hammers hit some kind of a pressure sensor. I'm not convinced of this yet. If the blog said that this was a new feature of the RM3, THEN I would have been more convinced.

EDIT: I can see a possible advantage of this design: given that the hammers, and not the keys, trigger the velocity sensors, it might be possible to play with shallow key PRESSES, relying on the hammer's momentum to carry them on and trigger the velocity sensors.

Greg. (will try to find a CA93 to test unless someone else beats me to it)
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 05:06 AM

James,

I had the chance to play a model with the RM3 Grand action at the local dealer. Absolutely fantastic! Barring a come-from-behind victory for the PHA III action (which I haven't had a chance to play), I'll be first in line for the MP10 when they hit the streets.

Unfortunately, the dealer didn't have an action sample model so that I could see what's going on inside. My interest there is academic. Can't resist a good puzzle.

Regards,
Aldo
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 09:28 AM

Hurray ! Finally the info I was waiting for all the time; price and (estimated) delivery date. MP6 € 1349 on German Stores / 29-10 expected date.

Now let's see when this info for the MP10 arrives. That would be really interesting...

To compare the two in term of keybed. Has anyone played both RM3 and RH and how do they compare. Of course the RM3 is better, but is the difference really that much ? In other words: is the RH is very decent keybed too and comparable to PHAIII-S for instance ? Thinking of ordering a MP6 (or FP7F) now , because I don't think I can/will wait for the MP10 to arrive - unless the RM3 is really , really so much better...
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 09:43 AM

Unfortunately in the circumstances where I am coming from I don't have the ability to get the MP10 so it must be between Yamaha and Roland regardless.But I must note when I played it recently the action seemed plenty fast for me (and I play a fair bit of house style piano) and given the choice it would be a very close call indeed.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
Don't know about the sound demo's; must hear it for real, because with these demo's I hear 'MID MID MID' (frequency range) and especially for the Grand way to much BASS. I hope it's the MP3 and the original sounds as it should be - more balanced in frequency ranges. On these demo's it's more like a boom box with 'oversaturated' MID range...



FWIW, overall it sounds pretty balanced to me, listening through reference headphones (AKG601). I think the Kawai signature sound does have strong mids though - it is a very rich sound. I still don't think it's as good as large software pianos though. E.g listen to these sampled Kawai EX demos:
http://www.acousticsamples.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=21 - it's in a different class IMHO.

Greg.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay

Of course, if the hammer in the RM3 can't re-strike without the key being lifted enough to trigger note off (damper falls), then the opportunity for improvement would be in the mechanics of the action. From the pictures, I can't tell how far up you have to lift the key before you can replay the note. If not possible in RM3, then maybe RM4.


I think that is not the point.
As you wrote, the different mechanism makes it possible to restrike the key without lifting much. (The same might be possible with the RH3, I dont know this) I know this from own experience, because I tested the RM3 in the store. I also readjusted my own keyboard for better repetition.

However, nobody would want the possibility to restrike the key without lifting it at all! The result where that each little key or hammer bounce would trigger a tone. This would also mute the previous tone.
The problem is, this new tone will also mute the previous tone.
If the hammer bounces then the previous tone can be muted, when the bounce has lower velocity.
This does not hurt on a 3 sensor keyboard, because the previous tone is not muted immediately when the hammer falls back. Hoever this works only when the sound generator -or the piano library- is prepared for it.

Of course, when the tone has enough release time, then similar results are possible with 2 sensors, because this unintended muting can be prevented.

Peter
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:18 AM

DrPopper,

Quote
Unfortunately in the circumstances where I am coming from I don't have the ability to get the MP10 so it must be between Yamaha and Roland regardless.


May I ask why this is the case? A contractual obligation/restriction, perhaps?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:18 AM

Yes, I expect the RM3 to be able to repeat with a 50% release, if it's anything like my old MP9000. I believe this is very similar to a real piano, although when I asked about this over in the piano tech forum here, they said it can actually repeat for a release of a bit under 50%.

HOWEVER, a real piano does not damp the strings until the key is returned almost all the way up. That is where I think the RM3 may fall down - I expect it to simply damp the notes at that same, 50% release. My Casio behaves properly - it does not damp until the key is higher up than 50%.

The Roland PHAII (two sensors - i.e standard) is a bit different. It actually seems to favour legato playing, because it terminates notes higher up than a 50% release. So, the three-sensor Roland actions should repeat faster than their two-sensor counterparts, because the third sensor would be lower down.

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:20 AM

Come on Greg, enough speculation - get yourself over to your local Kawai dealer and give the RM3 Grand action a try!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Yes, I expect the RM3 to be able to repeat with a 50% release, if it's anything like my old MP9000.


I think the MP9000 has very much the same action (AWA Grand Pro) as my CP136. If so, then you should see/hear/feel a big improvement with the RM3 action.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:48 AM

FWIW, I just measured my Casio PX-330, using a tyre tread depth gauge:

Total Key Travel: 11mm
Note-Off point: 6mm/55% release
Partial-repeat release: 4mm/36% release

Prior to this I had only eye-balled it, and I got it wrong. It is hard to estimate the distances by just looking.

I have, though, measured my MP9000 at 50% release in the past.

Greg.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by hpeterh


I think the MP9000 has very much the same action (AWA Grand Pro) as my CP136. If so, then you should see/hear/feel a big improvement with the RM3 action.


Of course! I'm just skeptical at the moment that the note-off point will be much different, that's all.

I am 100% certain that any concert pianist would much prefer the RM3 action, even if it only has two sensors, to my tri-sensor Casio action. laugh

Greg.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Come on Greg, enough speculation - get yourself over to your local Kawai dealer and give the RM3 Grand action a try!

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry, I had missed this. smile I'm puzzled, though. The CA93 is an existing product, so why can't you simply answer the question for us? In any case, yes, I'll endeavour to try one tomorrow. I'd rather you saved me the trouble and simply answered the question though. smile

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 11:33 AM

Please remind me - what was the question again?

James
x
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 11:42 AM

The question is:

How will the CA93 behave when the following test is performed:
(same question for the MP10):

1. Turn the volume up quite high
2. Play a note forte, but do NOT lift off the key yet.
3. Slowly release the key, until the note terminates, but no further than this.
4. Note the point in the key travel at which the note terminates.
5. Lift off the key completely.
6. Repeat steps 2 to 5 as required to get a good feel for the note termination point.
7. Play a note forte again, and again, do not lift off.
8. Slowly release the key. This time, stop at a point JUST below the note termination point. Hold the key at this position with one finger.
9. With the OTHER hand, push down on the same key with a forte force.
10. If the action simulates double-escapement, you will hear a NEW NOTE, without the original note ever being terminated first. If it does not simulate double-escapement, you will merely hear the ORIGINAL note continue to decay.

Sorry for hassling you - I appreciate your presence here. smile

Thanks,
Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 11:50 AM

Ah, I'm sorry, I'm afraid I honestly don't know the answer to that.

It strikes me that you are rather familiar with the different action mechanisms, therefore if you wish to check any technical characteristics of the RM3 Grand action, I strongly recommend that you visit your local Kawai dealer and play-test the action yourself.

But please be sure to report your findings back to the PW faithful. wink

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 11:55 AM

My answer is (for CA63): It does not simulate double escapement. There is no way to do this with 2 sensors.

I strongly believe that this is identical on a CA93, because the only difference in keyboard action is the escapement emulation, but not an additional third sensor. Mabe someone else with a CA93 can confirm...
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
DrPopper,

Quote
Unfortunately in the circumstances where I am coming from I don't have the ability to get the MP10 so it must be between Yamaha and Roland regardless.


May I ask why this is the case? A contractual obligation/restriction, perhaps?

Kind regards,
James
x


No restrictions I am not under any exclusive obligations with anyone.

I was playing it on the weekend and nobody said anything at all so I'd guess with the MP10 If I wanted one I'd have to actually buy it !


Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No restrictions I am not under any exclusive obligations with anyone.

I was playing it on the weekend and nobody said anything at all so I'd guess with the MP10 If I wanted one I'd have to actually buy it !


More evidence of the difference in marketing between Kawai and the rest of the world?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 03:48 PM

Hey I'll promote any DP brand if I get it for free... wink What the....
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 04:10 PM

DrPopper,

Quote
I was playing it on the weekend and nobody said anything at all...


Are you referring to the staff on the Kawai booth?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 06:29 PM

Hi everyone,

referring to my earlier question about keybeds; I know by experience that the RM3 is a really great keybed, but going down the ladder how is the new RH in comparison ? And how does it hold up against the competing PHA-IIIs that is build in the RF7F ?

I didn't like the PHAIII on the V-piano (too much 'thumb thumb') , but I did like the PHAII on the RD700GX and expect the "new" incarnations of PHAIII to be quite good and less noisy. If the RH on the MP6 is like 90% as good as the RM3 and comparable to the PHAIII in quality, I want to make a pre-order for the MP6. Simply because it's more portable than the MP10. If it's very inferior to the RM3 in realistic touché and/or the PHAIII is really better as an alternative, than I'll either go for the FP7F , or wait for the MP10 and decide later...

Any help would be appreciated, because I'm about to pull the trigger on this for a MP6 / FP7F pre-order so I won't have to wait another 3 months before I can try it in the shop or get one from later shipment batches.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/06/10 09:55 PM

Good morning JFP,

Quote
I know by experience that the RM3 is a really great keybed, but...how is the new RH in comparison ?


It's really great, and can be play-tested in the CN33 and - albeit without let-off simulation - CN23 instruments that are already available in stores.

Quote
And how does it hold up against the competing PHA-IIIs that is build in the RF7F ?


I expect only Dr Popper will be able to answer that one.

Quote
If the RH on the MP6 is like 90% as good as the RM3 and comparable to the PHAIII in quality, I want to make a pre-order for the MP6.


90%? What does that mean?

Quote
Any help would be appreciated, because I'm about to pull the trigger on this for a MP6 / FP7F pre-order so I won't have to wait another 3 months before I can try it in the shop or get one from later shipment batches.


I expect the majority of folks here would recommend that you play-test all of the instruments under consideration before purchasing. If for some reason this is not possible, I strongly urge you to try the instruments that feature the same keyboard actions and are available.

Minimising the amount of guess-work from this decision is surely the best way to avoid being disappointed.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 12:14 AM

Yeah they didn't seem to pay much attention.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
DrPopper,

Quote
I was playing it on the weekend and nobody said anything at all...


Are you referring to the staff on the Kawai booth?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 04:32 AM

I've now tested an RM3-based piano (CA93), and it does NOT emulate double-escapement. I assume the MP10 will be the same.

I measured the total key travel at 11m, and the damping point at 5mm/45% release.

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 04:47 AM

Greg, thank you for providing this information.

May I ask to what extent these findings influenced your playing enjoyment? What were your overall impressions of the 'RM3 Grand' action, and indeed, the CA93?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:10 AM

James,
I'm sorry, but I only did that one test. I told the salesman that I only wanted to do a very quick test, so that's what I did.

Greg.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:15 AM

Okay, fair enough. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I've now tested an RM3-based piano (CA93), and it does NOT emulate double-escapement.

Come on guys, call me stupid, but I don't understand why everything that is already known for a long time is being discussed all over again here.

Just a simple reference will do (sorry for the Google Franglais, it mentions 'double-exhaust' smirk : anybody interested in making a decent translation?):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1492875.html#Post1493614
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman

Come on guys, call me stupid, but I don't understand why everything that is already known for a long time is being discussed all over again here.


I didn't intend to "discuss" it. I merely mentioned it, briefly, to add on to Dr Popper's list of plus's and minuses.
That's all.

That post you referred to is long. I searched for "escapement", "triple", and "sensor", but got no hits. I haven't read the post yet though. (and I had never seen that post before)

Greg.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I haven't read the post yet though. (and I had never seen that post before)

Okay, I see: I can assure you that, although there's quite some text, it's at least entertaining to read. grin
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:44 AM

I must admit until you posted the detailed description I wasn't 100% sure of what you were on about. I'm pretty sure I've taken advantage of the feature on the CP1 without realizing it.

Originally Posted by sullivang


I didn't intend to "discuss" it. I merely mentioned it, briefly, to add on to Dr Popper's list of plus's and minuses.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 05:45 AM

Dr Popper,
I suspect that if you do that test I outlined on your CP1, it will fail. I don't think the CP1 is a tri-sensor action. (I haven't tried it, but I just think Yamaha would have mentioned it if it was)

Greg. (the tri-sensor Grim Reaper ;^)
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I've now tested an RM3-based piano (CA93), and it does NOT emulate double-escapement. I assume the MP10 will be the same.

I measured the total key travel at 11m, and the damping point at 5mm/45% release.

Greg.


Glad to know this.
This is quite the same as my keyboard after I readjusted it.
However, because there is a soft pillow in the junction between hammer and key this will depress when playing fast.
So the dynamic release level is not necessarily the same as the static.

Therefore it would be interesting to know about the playability in comparison to your MP9000 or PX330.

Peter
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 07:33 AM

Peter,
I didn't know that - that's very interesting.

To see whether it would be any different for rapidly repeated notes, we could simply use a very rigid stopper to restrict the release of the key. I think that's a good objective way of testing it. There's no way I will be attempting to do this test in a store, though. ;^) If anyone does this test, please report back.

Greg.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 07:57 AM

I think the basic questions is; when you actually play the instrument with rapid repeating notes, do you experience any limitations / drawback in the keyboards performance ? If so ; does a 3-sensor keybed perform any better in practice (not on paper) ? If not - then what's the problem ? If you feel the 3-sensor version DOES indeed relieve you of some limitations that the RM3 poses to your playing, then that board is a better choice for you.

In other words ; play the instruments in the way you would be playing them in practice and see what you like best. I think that may be a better approach then the clinical trail & error tests that are being performed now...

So if someone could test, or already say by experience, that a 3 sensor key is really better for the experienced player in real-life practice, that would be nice. If it made no difference at all in your opinion, that would also be welcome information. In fact, 3 sensor could be more more marketing talk than an actual noticeable difference...who knows.

Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:03 AM

Peter,
Do you mean the pad that the capstans press against? If so, I don't think there's much "give" in those pads at all. (also, as they age, little pits develop in them, which would reduce the amount of give further. Fortunately, it is trivial to adjust the capstans to compensate for these slight depressions that develop in these pads)
I'm assumning that the RM3 pads have a similar design to my MP9000. (looking at the photo of the RM3 action, it does look very similar to the MP9000 indeed)

Greg.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
I think the basic questions is; when you actually play the instrument with rapid repeating notes, do you experience any limitations / drawback in the keyboards performance ? If so ; does a 3-sensor keybed perform any better in practice (not on paper) ? If not - then what's the problem ? If you feel the 3-sensor version DOES indeed relieve you of some limitations that the RM3 poses to your playing, then that board is a better choice for you.

In other words ; play the instruments in the way you would be playing them in practice and see what you like best. I think that may be a better approach then the clinical trail & error tests that are being performed now...

So if someone could test, or already say by experience, that a 3 sensor key is really better for the experienced player in real-life practice, that would be nice. If it made no difference at all in your opinion, that would also be welcome information. In fact, 3 sensor could be more more marketing talk than an actual noticeable difference...who knows.



Ah, the reasonable voice of balanced logic; like a breeze of fresh air.

The trouble is that very few of us "play our instruments in the way we would be playing them in practice" by hanging out for an hour in a noisy store environment with different acoustics than home or gigs.

There was a dealer that used to deliver an HP-207 and a CA-91 to your home and then come back two weeks later to pick up the one you didn't want to keep. Too bad this approach doesn't seem to be very popular with the current generation of instruments. I suppose one could purchase an MP-10 and a RD-700NX from two dealers with generous return policies and create your own program...
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:09 AM

I think this 3 sensor thingy is a technical method that improves repetition.
It has the advantage that repetitions can be played without damping the string and with only partial key-releases.
For this playing style


this should be very helpful.
So we should give her a Casio Tri Sensor, a Yamaha GH3 and a Roland PHA3 and a Kawai R?3 and ask her what she prefers ;-)
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:14 AM

That was beautiful. I have a feeling that someone with her chops wouldn't waste their time with the kind of toys we all are buying.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:17 AM

Exactly - I posted a link to the same work just recently in another thread! (different performance, but same work, and same pianist! smile

If any digital piano is capable of that, they should put the clip on the product's web site!

Greg.
p.s I found a clip of a male playing the same work - he was playing even faster, HOWEVER, it was not as clean and consistent.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney

Ah, the reasonable voice of balanced logic; like a breeze of fresh air.


Yes, I agree with this completely. The work I have done is the easy bit. (but at least it's OBJECTIVE).

Greg.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:48 AM

Btw, I might compare legato behaviour of my Casio to the MP9000. Just maybe, I will be able to demonstrate an improvement with the Casio, due to the fact that the top sensor is higher up than it is on the MP9000. I will be able to control each other's sounds with MIDI, too. I don't know if/when I will do this. If there is a difference, it may be that it's only noticable for sounds with a rapid release, which may exclude acoustic piano, in which case it wouldn't be very relevant for most of us.

Greg.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:53 AM

But I'd have to get it out of the road case to do that wink
I'll give it a go at the Newport Arms tomorrow.


Originally Posted by sullivang
Dr Popper,
I suspect that if you do that test I outlined on your CP1, it will fail. I don't think the CP1 is a tri-sensor action. (I haven't tried it, but I just think Yamaha would have mentioned it if it was)

Greg. (the tri-sensor Grim Reaper ;^)
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 09:04 AM

My legato testing won't work, because it also depends on key travel velocity. It's very tricky business. I think I will leave the rest up to good pianists.

I don't see what is wrong with my statement that the RM3 lacks a feature - it's just a simple truth. I did not say it was a terrible omission. It may well be a box that Kawai have decided is not worth ticking. However, if that's the case, it might be prudent for Kawai to give some kind of an explanation, because if I can buy a Casio for 1/3rd or 1/4th the price of an MP10, that DOES tick this box, ON PAPER it looks a bit strange IMHO. I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.

Greg.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Exactly - I posted a link to the same work just recently in another thread! (different performance, but same work, and same pianist! smile


Yes, of course I know. I remembered it and tried to look it up and then found this by accident.
She is older here, but I think she further improved in playing...
Admirable.

BTW, I dont think it makes sense to compare MP10 and Casio.
The closest competitor -and with double escapement- will probably be the RD700NX or the FP7's successor. For me that are the next test candidates.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by hpeterh


BTW, I dont think it makes sense to compare MP10 and Casio.
The closest competitor -and with double escapement- will probably be the RD700NX. For me that is the next test candidate.


A grand piano has double escapement.
My Casio has double escapement.
The Kawai RM3 actions do NOT have double escapement.

That is all I am saying.

Greg.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
... it might be prudent for Kawai to give some kind of an explanation, because if I can buy a Casio for 1/3rd or 1/4th the price of an MP10, that DOES tick this box, ON PAPER it looks a bit strange IMHO. I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.

Greg.


Including value for money?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
A grand piano has double escapement.
My Casio has double escapement.
The Kawai RM3 actions do NOT have double escapement.

That is all I am saying.


Yes, that's true, but it doesn't help either to repeat it a thousand times. It's just pure theory. It's like theJourney and others stated: You have to play the DP for yourself and check what keyboard action meets your needs the best. This is really easy to find out:

0. Preconditions: Bring plenty of time with you (min. 3h); you need a store with all the DPs you consider buying (that might be the difficult part)
1. Go to a local dealer with lots of DPs
2. Get a decent pair of headphones (closed headphones to not get disturbed by the "background" noise)
3. For each DP: Do extensive playing like you do at home / on stage. Check for action and sound. If you recognize differences, check again if it was not just a coincidence. Narrow down your choice if you recognize that a specific action is not your taste at all. At the end compare those two models extensively which you prefer most. Best is to stop at some point and come back again on another day. There might be changes in mood, physical condition / whatever that might have influenced your preference.
I checked all models in my price range, also the more expensive and cheaper ones to get an idea if the price range is really worth it or accurate.
At the end your choice should be quite clear. In my case (back in January this year) there was absolutely no doubt which model to choose.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.


I would expect the action of my desired DP to be satisfying and meeting all my needs (value for money of course).
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
It's just pure theory. It's like theJourney and others stated: You have to play the DP for yourself and check what keyboard action meets your needs the best. This is really easy to find out:


I never said otherwise. There is no harm in knowing what features the DP's have and do not have before you perform your testing.

I am quite willing to reword my original statement:

"A POSSIBLE minus: the MP10 does not have double escapement. The Roland does".

Greg.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I am quite willing to reword my original statement:

"A POSSIBLE minus: the MP10 does not have double escapement. The Roland does".


For what purpose? I have no problem with your finding and wording. I myself stated that for CA63. This is a no-issue. So let's move on.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 01:04 PM

Mucci,
I thought you thought I was trying to say that the fact that the MP10 lacks double escapement was DEFINITELY a disadvantage, for everyone. Given that, I wanted to make it clear that I am merely stating that it lacks that feature, and it is up to each individual to assess whether the lack of this feature is important to them or not.

Greg.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 01:05 PM

Fair enough! I agree. BTW it is nowhere stated that it has this feature. So let's move on... wink
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 01:50 PM

Sincere apologies if this has received coverage elsewhere but does the MP-10 have the "RM3 with let-off" as per the CA-93 or the "RM3" as per the CA-63? Can I assume what Kawai calls "let-off" simulates the feel of a grand piano escapement but does NOT provide the functionality, ie, the ability for a note to be re-struck without fully releasing the key?

It matters not (to me) really as I do not have the technical playing ability to exploit this feature but I would like to know. For what it's worth that was the only significant difference between Roland PHA-II and III...the III really does allow lightning quick and believable repetition. Whilst I can physically achieve enough dexterity to expose the difference I can't do it in a musically profitable way!

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 02:02 PM

I thought this was clear now....

CA93 just has the let-off feel, not the functionality. For me this is of no benefit, other might consider this useful. Both CA63 and CA93 have two sensors, there is no way to provide the double escapement functionality with only two sensors.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 02:28 PM

The MP10 is the same as the CA93, which has let-off simulation.

Aaron
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 02:57 PM

Ok, many thanks. A bit of digging and I would've found the answer I suppose but thanks again.

The number of sensors is of no particular relevance to me... and certainly would not discourage me from buying any particular piano.

For what it's worth I have owned a Roland with both PHA-II and III...I don't find the III to be nicer at all despite its third sensor. But there is more to the repetition ability than just the number of sensors. I also have a Nord Piano (Fatar action) and it has faster/smoother repetition than the Roland RD-700GX (PHA-II)...but both have just two sensors (I'm not talking about the keys' physical ability to be struck and to return, but the way subsequent notes sound). The difference is small but quite easily perceptible. The Nord is of course nowhere near as good at repetitions as the PHA-III but part of the issue must be about sensor positioning and trigger points too.

So I guess it's possible that Kawai have a sensor "geometry" that works well, despite there being only two.

Steve
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.


I understand the sentiment. However, the Kawai mechanism is an entirely different device. Maybe something about its design would make it difficult or expensive to add that feature. Or maybe they're still working on that aspect of the design for a future version, but didn't want to hold up releasing what they already had, since it's superior in many other ways, and the "missing feature" may not matter to many people. Or for that matter, maybe the extra sensor in the Casio is an attempt to address a problem that may not exist (or exist to the same extent) in the Kawai, due to other design differences... i.e., until we have some people actually play both keyboards and confirm that they can actually repeat a note more quickly on a Casio than a Kawai, we don't know for sure that this is a limitation of the Kawai in the first place. What's important is how they play, not which technologies they use to get there.

Also, "better in every way" is a difficult standard because (a) people don't always agree on what feels better, and (b) in engineering, sometimes improvements in one area come at the expense of something else.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
there is no way to provide the double escapement functionality with only two sensors.


Picking up from something essbrace said... The point of Casio's third sensor is to permit much faster same-key repetition... but I would not assume that's the only way to achieve that goal. The cheap Yamaha NP-30 permits (to my fingers) much faster repetition than the three-sensor Casios! The keyboard, unweighted, is inferior in other ways, but it is a very "quick" keyboard.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 08:46 PM

Faster repetition is only part of the picture. Casio (and Yamaha, and Roland), have added the third sensor so that the overall behaviour is closer to a real grand piano, in the following ways:

1. It allows repetitions for relatively small key returns - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
2. It allows repetitions without the dampers coming into contact with the strings - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
3. It allows the strings to be damped at a relatively high point in the key return - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO (and also like an upright piano too)

This all starts with the premise that the keys on these digital pianos move in a similar way and velocity to a real grand piano.
Yes, an organ or synth can repeat very rapidly, but the keys behave NOTHING like a piano.

Greg.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 09:41 PM

My friend, as long as we're just talking theory, there is no way of finding out what is really better suited for your specific needs.

I tested all current mechanisms, and I have clearly made a decision in favor to the CA63 keyboard action because it gave the best playing experience to me personally. That said, I think I do have a playing style that doesn't need the double escapement. Still I have the feeling that the repetition of the Kawai, compared to the other brands, is quicker with the way I'm playing the piano.

Again, I suggest to get in touch with those keyboard actions in question and check whether it meets your needs for repetition and grand piano accuracy. Everything else is (sorry to insist on this) plain theory and leads to speculation but not to a real experience.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
What's important is how they play, not which technologies they use to get there.


Never a truer word spoken.

Greg, let's just remind ourselves of what we're trying to achieve here:

Originally Posted by myself
One of my colleagues in the US is lucky enough to have both an MP10 development board and an EX concert grand in his workshop. He can play one instrument for ten minutes, then swivel around in his chair to play the other for ten more. He swears that he often gets them mixed-up. Sure, the concert grand will undoubtedly sound a fair bit louder than the MP10 (although I guess that depends on how his amp is setup), but in terms of key touch, he says he doesn't need to make any adjustments to his playing technique.


Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The action is excellent and VERY similar to the RD700NX action. Close your eyes and your playing a grand ...its that good.


Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The action is good ....very good .... excellent .... and VERY much like a real grand. Close your eyes and your there.


Honestly, the goal of any digital piano action is surely to recreate the feeling of playing an acoustic grand piano. Whether the action features two sensors or three sensors is, I believe, a theoretical irrelevance. In practise, those who have tried the 'RM3 Grand' action (and by this I mean properly playing it) are convinced that they are playing an acoustic grand - job done.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/07/10 11:42 PM

Okay, let's try to get this thread back on topic, shall we? wink

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc

(make sure you watch in at least 480p for stereo sound)

The video is in German, however the general feature explanations should be reasonably easy to follow for non-German speakers...and besides, it's the sound of the instrument that's important - not that language that the demonstrator is speaking.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Rhodie73

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 12:24 AM

The MP6 really has me wondering. While I always like to get the "Top of the line" DP out of a series (the MP series), the MP6 has a lot of the M10's specs but without the price (Sweetwater says: MP10~$2499.00 USD and MP6~$1499.00 USD) and the weight. I already own an RD700GXF, but I am curious about the MP's for better Rhodes and possible better dimensions (actual width for gigging). I just can't stand the fact that Roland continues to extend their STAGE PIANOS with a joystick pitch bender more suitable for their synths. Kawai was very smart for not extending their boards anymore than they have to. It would be very interesting to see if these new MP series's can pass the acoustic piano (emulation) looping test. Basically are there noticeable looping in the samples. I am very curious about this, because I have been somewhat spoiled with my RD700GXF and audible looping (now) just will not do for me (like in the past when there was really no choice...older DP technology).

BTW....Kawai James, that demo sounds great and the Rhodes emulations really sound good. Do the new Rhodes emulations use the same PHI technology as the acoustic pianos? I ask this because I know that Kawai digital acoustic piano emulations have been great for non-noticeable velocity layers (unfortunately in previous models the sound didn't work for me, maybe now though in these newer models). I only hope that the EP's (Rhodes emulations and Wurlitzer) have the same wide dynamic range.
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc
x


Those german funk chops, found at an ancestral grave site from the eighties, was a great turn off for me. I hope the worldwide videos feature more actual sounds from the piano than nauseating background midi tracks. Rhodes were nice though.

Sound focus? Market-speak for eq in disguise?
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by FredFabulous
Originally Posted by Kawai James

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc
x


Those german funk chops, found at an ancestral grave site from the eighties, was a great turn off for me. I hope the worldwide videos feature more actual sounds from the piano than nauseating background midi tracks. Rhodes were nice though.

Sound focus? Market-speak for eq in disguise?


LOL. Not only the throwback playing was a turnoff. It seemed the video was actually an advertisement for the German high school nerd goes gangsta' look with sloppy ALDI T-shirt, oversized pinky rings and too big watches. Clearly a video production unburdened by the input from an art director or marketing professional.

And, as icing on the cake, from an organization that presumes to call itself "Kawai Europe", a broadcast in German. Didn't they get the memo that the attempt to impose German as the "Europe" language failed and that English is not only the lingua franca of Europe but the only real common language of most European musicians interested in Kawai products?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:48 AM

theJourney... eek Your favourite topic again!! I guess no offense intended in your nice words...
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
theJourney... eek Your favourite topic again!!


Please tell us what you liked about the video that was paid out of profits of Kawai instruments, mucci.
Did they say anything interesting? Most of us would have no idea.
Nothing like advertisements that few can understand for products that even fewer can find for sale...at least they could call themselves "Kawai Germany" so that Kawai could actually develop a Kawai Europe presence to compete with Yamaha.

Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 10:04 AM

Well, please tell me of great video demos of other DP brands. Don't ask me why they made it the way it is. Maybe they have a limited budget? How many DPs do they sell compared to Yamaha? This one is clearly for German audience, it was taken out of the German part of the KAWAI Europe site, so what? Maybe another one is in production? I don't know, I even don't care. But anyway, isn't this forum about DPs and their build and sound quality and not so much about the way a company presents its products? At least this is what I would expect.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 10:09 AM

BTW, I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, but the MP6 has only PHI (Progressive Harmonic Imaging), which is not the same as the UPHI (Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging) what is included in CA63 and CA93. I have no idea what the actual technology is behinde these buzz words, but I personally prefer the sound of UPHI after my tests. MP10 has UPHI, but fewer sounds. This in connection with the RM3 keyboard might suggest that MP10 might be better suited for pure piano playing.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 11:11 AM

Not many and stuff like this is why ....


Originally Posted by mucci
How many DPs do they sell compared to Yamaha?


Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 11:26 AM

I'd rate the MP10's EP's as "very good" rather then "Great" .....


Originally Posted by Rhodie73
The MP6 really has me wondering. While I always like to get the "Top of the line" DP out of a series (the MP series), the MP6 has a lot of the M10's specs but without the price (Sweetwater says: MP10~$2499.00 USD and MP6~$1499.00 USD) and the weight. I already own an RD700GXF, but I am curious about the MP's for better Rhodes and possible better dimensions (actual width for gigging). I just can't stand the fact that Roland continues to extend their STAGE PIANOS with a joystick pitch bender more suitable for their synths. Kawai was very smart for not extending their boards anymore than they have to. It would be very interesting to see if these new MP series's can pass the acoustic piano (emulation) looping test. Basically are there noticeable looping in the samples. I am very curious about this, because I have been somewhat spoiled with my RD700GXF and audible looping (now) just will not do for me (like in the past when there was really no choice...older DP technology).

BTW....Kawai James, that demo sounds great and the Rhodes emulations really sound good. Do the new Rhodes emulations use the same PHI technology as the acoustic pianos? I ask this because I know that Kawai digital acoustic piano emulations have been great for non-noticeable velocity layers (unfortunately in previous models the sound didn't work for me, maybe now though in these newer models). I only hope that the EP's (Rhodes emulations and Wurlitzer) have the same wide dynamic range.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 01:39 PM

I can't believe people are complaining about a video because it's in German.
Not everyone speaks English, and I assume that in that video's target market, more people speak German than English! I'm sure there will be English demos made too. What difference does it make which ones are posted first? Especially when the product isn't even available yet for anyone to buy! In the mean time, would we be better off with no demo at all? If you want to vent frustration that Kawai USA hasn't posted a video yet, okay, but don't take it out on the helpful work some other division did for their own market.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 02:39 PM

+1 agree

Still I find it hard to jugde sounds /playability of these instruments by sound demo's or demo movies online. Judging from this particular video, I didn't think the electric piano's were that special (and the synth sound could have better been left out). Hope there are some units in the stores soon to testplay, but I afraid I'll just have to order and find out myself ...

That said, I think the Mp6 has a fair price for what it offers. If they only had included the UHPI acoustic grand and skip some other redundant sounds in it's place, but that discussion has been taken place before. Let's play !

Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Faster repetition is only part of the picture. Casio (and Yamaha, and Roland), have added the third sensor so that the overall behaviour is closer to a real grand piano, in the following ways:

1. It allows repetitions for relatively small key returns - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
2. It allows repetitions without the dampers coming into contact with the strings - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
3. It allows the strings to be damped at a relatively high point in the key return - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO (and also like an upright piano too)



The new Casios may have the third sensor, but they still don't really feel like real pianos. You have to look at the whole package. It is possible that some other keyboard may play more like a real piano than the Casio does, even if it doesn't have the third sensor, and in that case, that's what I would prefer. (Even if the Casio lets me do same-key repetition faster... which I still wouldn't assume is necessarily *always* the case in a competing 2-sensor design, without actually trying it. The way I see it, it's possible that the only reason that the third sensor needs to be used to address this issue is that the keys aren't naturally returning fast enough in the first place, and a different action design might address that as well.)

As for your specifics for benefits of a third sensor *other* than permitting fast repetition:

I don't understand your point #3. My understanding is that a regular 2-sensor design has a "high point" sensor which is used to trigger the "note off" (and as a starting point for determining the velocity for the "note on"), along with a "low point" sensor which actually triggers the "note on." Why would a third sensor be needed to damp the sound "at a relatively high point in the key return"? Isn't that the normal behavior of a 2-sensor design?

As for points 1 and 2, what actual benefits are there to these behaviors *other* than permitting fast repetition? Would you be aware of them in any other kind of playing?

On a real piano, yes, you can actually lift the key just high enough to permit re-playing the key without allowing the damper to fall (as you describe in point 2) *or* a little higher to permit a re-play with the string damped between the strikes (still without having allowed the key to come up to near the beginning of its travel), the latter being what I think is more commonly desired. To recreate both of these scenarios electronically, you would need four sensors, not three (and the re-strikes from the different points would have to be programmed to trigger either damped or undamped samples). I'm not sure I see much real world benefit to this, though, or that I would actually even notice it in actual playing. I think we have a ways to go in making these relatively inexpensive and portable pianos more authentic before even beginning to think about that level of minutia. There are so many more noticeable flaws to be addressed.

As I just mentioned in another thread, while there is a lot I like about the Casios, if I'm evaluating *strictly* on how much they feel/respond/sound like playing a real piano, I'd still pick the 2-sensor single-layer (I think) Yamaha P-95 over the 3-sensor 4-layer PX-330. I think the Yamaha provides a more authentic piano experience in feel and dynamics. You can't look at the technologies in a vacuum. Solid implementation of basic technology can sometimes out-perform things that sound better on paper.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I can't believe people are complaining about a video because it's in German.
Not everyone speaks English, and I assume that in that video's target market, more people speak German than English!


As far as I can tell, this is not true. The language of the current World Empire is English, thus the language of everything international is English, thus almost everybody in Europe (above a given level of IQ) has learnt to speak English. (That is true in Germany, too.)
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 07:13 PM

I have to mention the american presentation video of the mp5 and mp8ii. Even cheesier and possibly aimed at home shopping tv. I like how the man tells us the great portability of the mp5 and not saying a word of the mp8. Almost emphasing that the mp8ii is one heavy pieace of... slab. Won't link it as it might hurt sales of the newer models :) 

Oh what the heck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kut2kcdjPo

Kawai outside Japan seems intent on pushing DPs as used cars. Might work for some. Ain't working for me.

I think most users of this forum have enough self reservation to actually go down and try the keybead and sound combination before buying - if possible. Mere marketing hype isn't enough to sway us, right? (right smile ).

I used to live in Berlin until a couple of month back and though most people understand english pretty good there are a fair amout of people who simply refuse to talk back in anything else than german (especially older folks, odd no?). I think the general mindset is something in the line of "if it's aired in germany, it's going to be in german, or thou shallt be dubbed!". I've known people who actually prefer the dubbed voices of certian actors in american movies aired in germany. Oh my! wandering off topic here.

I'm going to find a music store with the CA93 to get my hopes back up for the mp10, it does seem as the perfect instrument on paper, if I just can hold out that long.
Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:00 PM



I'd purchase my piano from a German-speaking, 350 pound mutation of Simon Cowell, Rosie O'Donnell, and Papa Smurf -- donning a tutu and combat boots from an 80s-nostalgia consignment shop..... IF the piano purchased was the best digital piano available for the price.

How many would rather play their second choice, just so they could have their feelings stroked by a pleasant purchase experience or slick marketing?

But, that's me, perhaps not the masses.

Interestingly, there are a lot of complaints about how hard it is to try a Kawai. I'll join that club. Kawai dealers are several hours away. Even those dealers may not have the MP6 or MP10 available. If so, Kawai loses.

It would not surprise me if Kawai is torn between supporting/retaining their current distributors and getting their units into Guitar Center. Unfortunately, getting the units into Guitar Center/chains probably may the only way to get Kawai sales up to Roland and Yamaha levels.

And because a dealer is nearby, doesn't mean you can explore the organic dynamics of an instrument's sound at that dealer. I have never been in a Guitar Center or Sam Ash that didn't have some pimple-faced kids repetitively playing the same rock riff at high decibel. The noise starts when the doors open; no private booths available. Trying to evaluate a Martin or PAF in this atmosphere is impossible, much less a digital replication of an acoustic piano. At a Kawai dealer, at least I can try the board in peace, without much sales harassment.

I may purchase a Kawai or a Roland (I'll try Nord/Yam too) in a three months or so. Roland has my attention, due to improvements in sound and a 700$ gap closing on pricing between the rd700GXNX and MP8ii-10.

Though I agree a longer/more diverse trial of the acoustic pianos is of more interest to most of us, I didn't think the video was THAT bad. If Lady Gaga is the new hip, the guy in the video should remain in the 1980s. He'll be far less embarrassed, in the long run.

Finally, I am always impressed and appreciative of the European mastery of English. Many Americans haven't mastered English at the level of many Europeans, particularly writing it.


Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Csillag
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I can't believe people are complaining about a video because it's in German.
Not everyone speaks English, and I assume that in that video's target market, more people speak German than English!


As far as I can tell, this is not true. The language of the current World Empire is English, thus the language of everything international is English, thus almost everybody in Europe (above a given level of IQ) has learnt to speak English. (That is true in Germany, too.)


I don't agree with that. I lived for some time in Germany some years ago without speaking German, and if things have not changed notably since then, there were a lot of people that did not spoke English, or just had a basic knowledge of it. Of course, no complain here: it was me that, being at Germany, didn't speak German, so it was my fault blush

Yeah, the more literate ones spoke English, but not everybody is one of the most literate ones... the same would be true for France, Italy or Spain. In Netherlands I think that everybody speaks English as well as Dutch, but that is the exception.

So, if you want to sell a product in Europe, better to speak the language of the countries where you are going to sell it. I agree that an English video would had reached more people, but I guess it is on the way. A video in German is a lot better than no video at all. And you can listen to the sound of the thing without translator.
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/08/10 10:41 PM

The video wasn't -that- bad, we're just poking fun at it smile

But sadly it does sum up kawai marketting in a way.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 12:11 AM

I tried to ignore the aesthetics of the production - and the language (difficult to filter out the backing tracks, though wink ). I'm much more interested in how the MP6 sounds and plays. From what I heard, although I wasn't blown away, I was generally pleased. It sounds like a good all-rounder at a sensible price. It's very high on my list at the moment (even higher since I just sold both my RD-300SX and my Electro 3 shocked )
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 12:30 AM

voxpops, you sold the Electro 3 and didn't even give me first dibs?!

Cheers,
James
x

Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 12:32 AM

I'd love Nords if they weren't so dammed .....red.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
voxpops, you sold the Electro 3 and didn't even give me first dibs?!

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry James, but I didn't want you getting over-excited and having another accident wink
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I'd love Nords if they weren't so dammed .....red.

[Linked Image]

Take your pick, Doc!
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I'd love Nords if they weren't so dammed .....red.

Look here http://www.bauer-music.de/digital-pianos/bauer-music-white-line/index.html

I think they deliver any piano in white on request for a small extra charge...
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 02:34 PM

Question for James or any other techno-wizard: is it possible to control the "drawbars" on the MP6 via midi (using a midi fader device), and if so, how? I've looked at the manual but cannot work out if it's doable.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 02:46 PM

voxpops, I'll have to ask on Monday Tuesday.

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Monday was/is a national holiday in Japan.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/09/10 02:58 PM

Thanks, James!
Posted By: Musical Dan

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/10/10 09:55 AM

Wow it sounds nice! This might win me over from the rd-700nx after all.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 09:22 AM

PHI and UPHI - probably this has been explained somewhere else on this forum, but for my understanding and final decision:

- What are the actual - real - technical differences between PHI and UPHI ?
- Is the basic sample material exactly the same and can the difference only be found in extended processing of string resonances and such, or is there also a difference in the base material ?
- If the difference lies in the processing ; what is then added/enhanced in the UPHI in comparison to the PHI ?
- If the difference is (also) in the sample material - what is then altered; are the samples in UPHI longer , from another set, or in an other way better ?

If these questions have been sufficiently (!) answered before, then please add a link to the thread. Thanks !
Posted By: batak

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:04 AM

Another question for KJ: Why is sysex section omitted from MP6 manual? I myself wrote a simple librarian out of my need to convert files between the Normal Dump and Divided Dump formats and to facilitate renaming and reordering Setups and all that thanks to the above mentioned section in my MP5's manual. I admire Kawai for releasing sysex dump and sound&setup format data along with MP5.

Cheers,
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:20 AM

JFP,

The questions you raise, while entirely valid, have no answer in the public domain that I'm aware of. To answer your points would mean Kawai revealing how much (or how little) technical processing is going on and the specific nature of this processing. For them this is a proprietary process and subject to commercial sensitivities (read, secrecy!). Yamaha use similar jargon to PHI/UPHI such as "AWM", "Pure CF Sampling" etc and Roland now use their "Supernatural" process. None of these technologies are ever really explained in the kind of depth that satisfies a healthy, curious mind. It's very frustrating for the anoraks among us (me included) but inevitable in a competitive market place.

For what it's worth I have no doubt that UPHI will be superior in a subjective sense to PHI. Despite the lack of info available I know enough to believe that the MP10 should be on anyone's try-out list before purchasing. RD v CP v MP now makes for a very interesting and potentially rewarding choice.

Cheers,

Steve

Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
PHI and UPHI - probably this has been explained somewhere else on this forum, but for my understanding and final decision:
[...]
If these questions have been sufficiently (!) answered before, then please add a link to the thread. Thanks !


Well, I would also be VERY interested in answers to these questions, but I'm afraid there are no official answers to these questions, since KAWAI won't tell you how they do it. They consider this a company secret. Other brands might provide you with a little bit more information, but all these technical questions unfortunately are somehow hidden by marketing talk.

That's one of the reasons why there is this very nice DPBSD thread. Dewster tries to uncover at least some of the technical questions. But finally you have to try the DPs for yourself to get an idea of what best fits your specific needs.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:44 AM

I'm not expecting them to hand out the algorithms and codes of the processing taking place, I just want to know in what way these techniques are different. I sure that can be explained without giving the competition the all technical details of the proprietary process.

If you call something PHI instead of UPHI you should at least be able to explain what the difference are to your customer; what's the use otherwise and why would anyone be convinced of these enhancements without any details ? I simple "UPHI is better than PHI, just believe it" without further explanation is not sufficient.

So, what do I miss with PHI and why should I bother to pay (so much) more for UPHI. Convince me ! (And no.. I'm not able to testdrive both in the near future so I have to go with what info will be released...)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:48 AM

JFP,

As EssBrace and mucci have already note, I'm afraid I am unable to answer the questions that you are asking to the extent that will satisfy you on a technical level. All I can say is that UPHI requires a larger amount of sample memory that PHI. More sample memory allows greater levels of expressiveness, expressiveness = better.

Some claim not to be able to hear the difference between a 'Concert Grand' UPHI sound and a 'Concert Grand' PHI sound, or that the differences are not noticeable enough to be worth the extra investment. Regardless, from a technical perspective UPHI is superior to PHI - it cost more to develop, thus instruments that utilise the technology are more expensive than those that do not.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:50 AM

batak, I'll have to look into your query regarding the sysex information tomorrow.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
RD v CP v MP now makes for a very interesting and potentially rewarding choice.


Hey, don't forget about the NP Steve!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm afraid I am unable to answer the questions that you are asking to the extent that will satisfy you on a technical level. All I can say is that UPHI requires a larger amount of sample memory that PHI. More sample memory allows greater levels of expressiveness, expressiveness = better.


More sample memory can permit three things:

1. more samples across the keyboard, so less (or no) stretching is required for a given sample to cover adjacent keys

2. more samples within a given key, as a method to more accurately reflect the timbre and envelope changes you hear when striking a single note at a variety of velocities

3. longer samples, so that more of a note's natural decay is captured before reaching the point where you are instead manipulating a looped sound

Can you say which one (or which combination) of these is the function of the additional sample memory in UPHI vs PHI?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 11:37 AM

Yep, that's what I would like to know as well. Again - not the technical details that would hand Kawai's R&D efforts right into the hands of Yamaha&Co , but more the simple facts like:

- UHPI has a new larges sample set , resulting in longer decays / more samples per key und such..

And also:

- UHPI has a better snare resonance algorithm than PHI, or more levels of damper resonance simulation ...
and more of that kind of non-technical but understandable differences between the two technologies.

That shouldn't be so hard and keeps the Kawai processing secrets intact.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
All I can say is that UPHI requires a larger amount of sample memory that PHI. More sample memory allows greater levels of expressiveness, expressiveness = better.


Yeah, but... what!?

You should keep your mouth shut, otherwise you are begging for additional annoying requests! wink

What I don't understand is: Why should a specific technique or algorithm like UPHI require larger amounts of memory? You can provide PHI the same amount of memory and getting better results, so what? Does the processing somehow require extra memory? This doesn't make any sense to me... So come on, give us some extra hints, otherwise I am forced to speculate too much about nothing... grin
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 11:56 AM

Yes, James - I should've mentioned the mighty little Nord I suppose...it is still entertaining me, which is quite a feat given how restless I am about these things.

Fair points made above, or should I say logical assumptions made by anotherscott but UPHI may involve a different approach, who knows? For instance on the Nord, which Dewster so kindly analysed, there are two principle piano voices...a Steinway that checked out in the DPBSD test at seven layers (which is almost unprecedented in hardware DPs I guess) but unblended. The Studio Grand 2 (Yamaha) is blended and it is not possible to ascertain how many layers - but I would guess there are fewer layers than the Steinway. Both are very playable and very dynamic...but for some reason Nord have chosen to employ different methods with their sounds.

It cannot be that Kawai are using less stretching on UPHI because they do not use stretching anyway. More layers in the blend is probably the answer...and this would certainly tend to make something more expressive (and the need of more sample memory), which is what James is saying.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
You should keep your mouth shut


Okay, invitation accepted.

Please listen to Steve - his posts tend to make a lot of sense.
(must be because he's British...)

Good night chaps!

James
x
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
It cannot be that Kawai are using less stretching on UPHI because they do not use stretching anyway. More layers in the blend is probably the answer...and this would certainly tend to make something more expressive (and the need of more sample memory), which is what James is saying.


Hmm... I doubt that. To be honest, new layers would not explain a "new technology", a jump from PHI to UPHI... Sorry to say that, it's just a minor improvement of something that already exists. Improving something from PHI to UPHI I would assume that at least some part of the algorithm was significantly improved. For me adding a new layer is not such an improvement. Everything that does not change the algorithm itself, e.g. adding more memory, more layers, longer sounding notes before looping starts, less stretching etc. is not something worth a new improved "technology".


Otherwise KAWAI is kidding us... Marketing talk... You know what I mean...
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by mucci
You should keep your mouth shut


Okay, invitation accepted.


Hehe, I knew this was coming...

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Please listen to Steve - his posts tend to make a lot of sense.
(must be because he's British...)


Okay... (writing)
PHI: 88 key samples, x layers
UPHI: 88 key samples, x+n layers...

What else?
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 12:13 PM

Ok let me add another rumours
Less sample compression in UHPI - more high frequency detail
Longer loops. More detailed keyoff samples for different velocities
;-)
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 12:54 PM

"Less sample compression in UHPI - more high frequency detail
Longer loops. More detailed keyoff samples for different velocities"

Ok that's getting somewhere, unfortunately they are only rumors. As always , we are left in the dark as far as real facts are concerned.

So , when they sell a 20.000 euro BMW car with a BMW engine and they sell s similar BMW car for 35.000 euro with "a" BMW engine, would you think the salesman would refuse to tell the customer what the exact differences are ??! He would be all over you with specs and details, just to convince you to buy the more expensive version. What do we get from Kawai and alike: simply believe me - the top model is much better, because we added UHPI ! So what does it do and why is it better and in what way , you might ask ? Sssssssst, we can't tell you - simply throw in your money, believe us when we tell you it's superior and you'll be happy with it !

Yeh, really ...why not just tell what the difference are, I really don't like all this hokus-pocus and don't understand what's it's good for. Yamaha certainly doesn't rip off the UHPI when you just tell it added two velocity layers to the sample material and/or creates a smoother experience in pedaling / resonances and more off such details.

Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 01:28 PM

Yamaha, and others use their own hocus pocus, AWM, SCM, SN, AiFLM and so on. Do you, as a musician really care? I just want to known what it sounds like. If they want to keep their technology secret let them, and let another competitor produce an 'open source' type product. Oh wait, aren't there some software pianos already like that? As an engineer it's interesting but that's not why I learn piano and music. JMHO.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 01:53 PM

In summary UPHI seems to be better than PHI but no way we can quantitatively know how much. We are left only for qualitatively (hearing them) judging the differences between the two.

Maybe (just speculating) the companies do not want to release the exact information of how big are the samples they are using because that would show a lot of distance from sampled software pianos, which are, quantitatively (judging only the numbers), far superior. That would be specially true in the low end DP models.

But qualitatively the distance is not so big. In fact internal sounds are very well adjusted to the action of the DP, and latency is minimal (by the way, somebody knows the latency of a DP... it has to be very small, but how many ms?), and that makes them very playable and enjoyable compared to software pianos of an equivaleng size. DPs also tend to use any trick available to get the most from a small sample set (blending layers, stretching, simulating string resonance witch effects, etc).

So, hiding the numbers would benefit DP manufacturers. Also, a small increment (going from x layers to x+n layers) is not as apealling as going from PHI to Ultra PHI.

Or maybe is just a marketing trend...
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 01:53 PM

Reverse engineering is the magic word. It has been done a thousand times, but it doesn't seem to be worth it for an enthusiast in the DP market. For those little iPod whatever gadgets there is alternative firmware, hacked apps etc. etc., but we are alone in the rain... *sniff* Guess what would be possible if someone would write an alternative firmware for the CA63... Longer sustain, more space for patches, even different algorithms for sound generation...

And I think if a company really wants to know what's inside another brand DP they can just rip it off and do their own reengineering.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie
string resonance witch effects, etc).


I think thats the keyword.
They did do some magic and experiments with UHPI but dont understand themselves exactly why it sounds better. So they cannot explain ;-)
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 02:16 PM

You must be right. It's magic - and you just have to believe it. We're still living in the dark ages it seems.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 03:00 PM

You're right - at least when it comes to DP firmware! Thank god we have our Galileo -> Dewster!
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie
In summary UPHI seems to be better than PHI but no way we can quantitatively know how much. We are left only for qualitatively (hearing them) judging the differences between the two.

As luck would have it, the three Kawai DPs that we have DPBSD MP3s for also represent the three different levels of Kawai's Harmonic Imaging technology. Here is a quick comparison of the obvious technical features:

MP5 (HI - Harmonic Imaging)
- Stretched, 22 groups.
- Blended velocity layers
- Attack: 3.0,1.8,1.6,1.5,1.6,1.0,?,? => avg 1.6
- Loop: 1.6,1.2,1.1,1.3,1.0,0.8,?,? => avg 1.1

CN33 (PHI - Progressive Harmonic Imaging)
- Unstretched.
- Blended velocity layers
- Attack: 1.8,2.1,2.1,1.8,1.7,1.6,1.1,? => avg 1.7
- Loop: 0.8,0.8,0.7,0.8,0.7,0.7,0.6,? => avg 0.7

CA63 (UPHI - Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging)
- Unstretched.
- Blended velocity layers
- Attack: 3.0,3.0,2.1,1.6,1.4,1.5,0.97,? => avg 1.8
- Loop: 1.4,1.3,0.68,0.83,0.64,0.74,0.63,? => avg 0.8


So the big step from HI to PHI is the elimination of stretching (every note sampled).

It's not clear to me what the step from PHI to UPHI is, though it could easily be additional layers, more note damp samples, etc.

What's really fascinating is the fact that very little has changed in terms of average attack and loop sampling times. In the MP5 and the CA63 the attack sample times are weighted more towards the bass region, which is the right thing to do if you employ looping IMO.

And the lowly MP5 actually has longer loop samples than the two later models, a function I believe of "improved" loop processing techniques. But my stance on looping is this: if you must loop, the loop sample should be made long enough to realistically wobble without easily hearing the wobble period (i.e. sound like multiple slightly detuned strings) - which requires on the order of 5 to 10 seconds of sample time depending on the note. And ideally the looping would happen only after a lengthy attack sample, at the point where the note volume has dropped significantly.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Yep, that's what I would like to know as well. Again - not the technical details that would hand Kawai's R&D efforts right into the hands of Yamaha&Co , but more the simple facts like:

- UHPI has a new larges sample set , resulting in longer decays / more samples per key und such..

And also:

- UHPI has a better snare resonance algorithm than PHI, or more levels of damper resonance simulation ...
and more of that kind of non-technical but understandable differences between the two technologies.


Good point... additional sample memory can be used for string resonances and other things as well, besides the three I listed. As others have mentioned... note-off samples, longer loopable regions... probably other things too.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
if you must loop, the loop sample should be made long enough to realistically wobble without easily hearing the wobble period (i.e. sound like multiple slightly detuned strings) - which requires on the order of 5 to 10 seconds of sample time depending on the note.


That's a good observation. I remember when I listened to an MP5 sample online, the thing I was critical of was how simple the decay sound was, as if it were a piano with only one string per key, without the richness of multiple strings which can never be so perfectly in tune. I think that is a lot of what makes DPs generally sound unnatural in the decay.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/11/10 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I remember when I listened to an MP5 sample online, the thing I was critical of was how simple the decay sound was, as if it were a piano with only one string per key, without the richness of multiple strings which can never be so perfectly in tune. I think that is a lot of what makes DPs generally sound unnatural in the decay.

Absolutely. A second or two of looping will either give you a quick fake wobble, or if it is highly processed (like the recent Yamaha CP sounds) an equally fake non-wobble. A bunch of notes decaying & audibly looping together is something I really just can't abide anymore.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 12:52 AM

voxpops,

I'm afraid it is not possible to control the drawbars of the MP6's tonewheel organ simulator via MIDI.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:19 AM

batak,

The MP6 does not transmit dump information via MIDI.

Instead, data is loaded from and saved to USB memory devices.

Note that the MP6 can receive the MP5's AllDump information (via MIDI), however there is no guarantee that the SETUPs information will map perfectly to the newer board due to its new/additional sounds.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
voxpops,

I'm afraid it is not possible to control the drawbars of the MP6's tonewheel organ simulator via MIDI.

Kind regards,
James
x

That's a shame - I wonder if it could be implemented at a later date...

Thanks for asking, James. Right now I'm talking to my local Kawai dealer about the MP6. I'm feeling it still ticks enough boxes to be a major contender.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:34 AM

dewster,

Originally Posted by dewster
As luck would have it, the three Kawai DPs that we have DPBSD MP3s for also represent the three different levels of Kawai's Harmonic Imaging technology.


Not quite, there is actually a fourth standard - 'Harmonic Imaging, 88-key sampling', as utilised by instruments such as the ES6, CN22, CL35, and CA18.

The MP5 was developed prior to the advent of Kawai's 88-key piano sampling technology, which is why the stretch groups are rather noticeable. If you were to examine a DPBSD of one of the instruments listed above, you would find that the sound is unstretched - just like PHI and UPHI.

For an 'at a glance' comparison of Kawai's digital piano instruments, please refer to this PDF - note that there is a brief explanation of the various DP features on the inside back page.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
...note that there is a brief explanation of the various DP features on the inside back page.

Harmonic Imaging is the technology used to recreate the rich sound of a grand piano, and ensures that all KAWAI digital instruments off er a smooth tonal transition from pianissimo to fortissimo. A hand-built EX Concert Grand is at the heart of every KAWAI digital piano, with 88-key piano sampling capturing the unique harmonic character of each individual note, and enhanced forms of Progressive and now Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging delivering the most expressive grand piano sound ever realised.

Thanks! So "HI" in all of its incarnations just means blended velocity layers, and doesn't have anything to do with stretching.

But after reading the back of the product catalog I can't say I have any more insight into the differences between HI, PHI and UPHI. Not trying to pin you to the mat or anything, but may I be so bold to suggest that it could be good marketing to let prospective customers know what they will be gaining by selecting and paying extra for a product with more advanced sound technology features?

To their credit, Roland has taken the bull by the horns by directly addressing layer switching, stretching, and looping with their SN piano media blitz - so the cat is already pretty much out of the bag, no? Manufacturers don't have to tell us exactly what they are doing under the hood, but at this point they should sufficiently convince us that they are aware of and working the problems IMO.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:37 AM

Do I understand from the DPBSD that the longest attack sample for PHI is only 2.1 sec long and the longest looping sample only 0,8 (not even a second) . That really worries me. When I play a note on an acoustic, the sound lasts (and keeps on changing!) forever in comparison. I wonder how the tone after the attack phase could sound like a piano at all with this little sample time, but perhaps I miss the point somewhere ?

FP7/ RD-NX still in the picture then...
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:50 AM

RE: the Roland SN, is it necessarily much better, in terms of the quality of the note evolution as it decays? I know SN doesn't have any looping, but is it capable of producing a rich, slow, phasey sound as it decays? Or is it still rather static, aside from the fact that it does become mellower in a natural way?

Greg.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:50 AM

No, I don't think you've missed the point. This is exactly what brought Roland Supernatural into being...this and audible velocity layers. However, it is certainly true that whilst looping and layers are intrinsically undesirable, the actual implementation of them varies considerably...some are much better than others and if well done can be acceptable.

If looping really is an issue (I certainly don't like it) then Roland SN is the only current answer. I suspect however that the Kawai MP10 has a superior action...well, if not technically superior, perhaps a more natural feel...and I also suspect the Kawai is of higher perceived quality, ie, less mass-produced looking/feeling.

The state of the art in hardware DPs is undoubtedly Roland SN though...it should only be ruled out by people that don't relate to the Roland sound signature (slightly richer, warmer, darker than Yamaha and probably Kawai too). The MP10 would be on my list though...I wouldn't buy a top end stage piano without trying it anyway.

And if I were to re-visit my piano buying experience personally I would be very tempted by the FP-7F...On paper specs/look I would give it the nod over the RD...just can't stand the placement of the RD's pitch-bend/mod controller...this is subject to the key action being strictly comparable between the two.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:52 AM

JFP, that's theory/just an indication and BTW true for almost all the DPs brands. You need to check the DP for yourself whether you are satisfied with the sound, and whether the looping is audible for you.

Again: For me the keyboard action is the most important part of a DP.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:53 AM

Greg, to my ears the SN decay is absolutely believable...there is nothing static or artificial about it to my ears...it is a towering achievement in my opinion, the biggest asset of the SN engine in fact.

Cheers,

Steve
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 09:59 AM

From a highly pessimistic technical standpoint the SN sets might just be another case of clever use of filter/blended layers that is tailored to fool a spectrum analyzer. Listerners might never notice the difference anyhow. To brighten the tone it's 2010, and I don't believe they need to do this looping/stretch charade anymore. As dewster points out the cat is out of the bag and companies are fighting it smile

But as always. If it sounds good it sounds good. For example I kind of like the way the CP5 add an artificial flavour to the note decay. I didn't hear this so accurately before seeing it happen in dewsters test images. But now that I know what to listen for I can't un-hear it!
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 10:42 AM

Ok, ok, I agree - the SN is indeed impressive. I had never listened to the DPBSD closely until now. The decays are very good. smile

Greg.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by sullivang
Ok, ok, I agree - the SN is indeed impressive. I had never listened to the DPBSD closely until now. The decays are very good.

A big telltale for me is watching the VU meters in Audition while listening to the decay portion of the notes. A real piano will show L & R bobbling around rather independently, whereas a looped piano will display the same bobble pattern cycling over and over. Roland SN looks and sounds very real to me, which is quite refreshing after listening to so many DPs with criminally short samples.

Originally Posted by EssBrace
The state of the art in hardware DPs is undoubtedly Roland SN though...it should only be ruled out by people that don't relate to the Roland sound signature (slightly richer, warmer, darker than Yamaha and probably Kawai too).

Very well put. By constantly singing the virtues of SN I feel I'm in danger of giving people the impression that I'm generally pro-Roland or anti-other DP manufacturers, but it is really a game changer in terms of sound technology. It even gets all the small things right, like the silent replay test, which most DPs and PC samplers can't boast. There's literally nothing else out there like it, and the other manufacturers by comparison have been caught with their pants down.
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:27 PM

Some tidbits of news for anyone still interessted in the main topic. A local dealer responded with this a few minutes ago as to my question how soon I would be able to pick it up at the store after the official release date.

"As a "main dealer" of Kawai i Norway, we can confirm that the new MP-10 will be in stock in Norway, around 1 of December..."

That should count for the rest of scandinavia as well. He went on to say it could be shipped shortly after that.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Do I understand from the DPBSD that the longest attack sample for PHI is only 2.1 sec long and the longest looping sample only 0,8 (not even a second) . That really worries me.

It should worry you.

Originally Posted by JFP
When I play a note on an acoustic, the sound lasts (and keeps on changing!) forever in comparison. I wonder how the tone after the attack phase could sound like a piano at all with this little sample time, but perhaps I miss the point somewhere ?

No, you've got the point exactly right.

Originally Posted by JFP
FP7/ RD-NX still in the picture then...

We will probably buy one of those for our studio to replace the P120 we recently sold. Just waiting for more feedback from users regarding the key action, and a physical trial in a store, to decide which one. I like the extra sounds, build quality, and UI in the NX. I like the music rest, built-in speakers, and compact length of the 7F.

Too bad they don't make an RD7F. Though, since the perversity of the universe tends towards a maximum, they will probably unveil something like that the second we buy the NX or 7F.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
The state of the art in hardware DPs is undoubtedly Roland SN though...it should only be ruled out by people that don't relate to the Roland sound signature


and by people who are not willing to carry around a piano that weighs over 50 pounds (not even counting the case). I wish they would come out with a piano with that sound quality in a box the size/weight of at least an FP-4, if not a Yamaha P-95, Casio PX-3, etc. Or a rack module (like the old MKS-20 and P-330) or sound module (like the SonicCell), and then we could get the sound on whatever size keyboard we were willing to haul around.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 02:17 PM

Even if I would love to have SN build into my Kawai I would rather buy the DP with the best keyboard action, full stop. That's by far the most important decision to make. If, in case of Roland, the sound signature of SN and your personal preference of best keyboard action meets in one of it's DPs, I can only congratulate you for an almost perfect combination!
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Even if I would love to have SN build into my Kawai I would rather buy the DP with the best keyboard action, full stop. That's by far the most important decision to make. If, in case of Roland, the sound signature of SN and your personal preference of best keyboard action meets in one of it's DPs, I can only congratulate you for an almost perfect combination!


When you decide to upgrade to an acoustic piano will you buy one with the "best action" no matter how it sounds?

Perhaps you could have a Steinway & Sons. klavier installed into an old Yamaha grey market frame to save money?

It seems to me that any reasonable person buys the total package. What is the point of playing on the theoretically best keyboard if you aren't happy with the sound of the instrument? It sounds a bit perverse to me.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/12/10 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney

When you decide to upgrade to an acoustic piano will you buy one with the "best action" no matter how it sounds?


Yes. (If it has a proper MIDI output.)

Quote
Perhaps you could have a Steinway & Sons. klavier installed into an old Yamaha grey market frame to save money


I don't think it would fulfill the MIDI requirement smile

Quote
It seems to me that any reasonable person buys the total package. What is the point of playing on the theoretically best keyboard if you aren't happy with the sound of the instrument? It sounds a bit perverse to me.


Well, if you have MIDI, you can completely replace the sound later, with anything you want. Pianoteq and Ivory comes to mind, but a SN sound module would be nice, too...

The cost (and hassle) of replacing the sound is really small, compared to the cost of the original DP, so this seems to be a sensible option to me.

Of course one buys the whole packages, but (for me, at least) the whole package contains the expanded possibilities, too.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/17/10 11:06 PM

Agree with Csillag on this. All depends on priorities. If you're primarily using it as a MIDI controller, then the built-in sound is fairly inconsequential. I use a DP as a MIDI controller first. Occasionally I use the built-in sound when I don't want to wait for the computer to fire up and playing the acoustic would wake everyone up.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/17/10 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
It seems to me that any reasonable person buys the total package. What is the point of playing on the theoretically best keyboard if you aren't happy with the sound of the instrument? It sounds a bit perverse to me.


I'm with theJourney on this. I want the total experience to be right BEFORE considering adding outboard expansion. In this day and age, one should be able to buy something that sounds like a real acoustic piano/electric piano and acts like one, too. The action needs to connect one to the sound in a holistic way, and the sound should be good enough to feed your creativity and encourage you to play better. That's why I'm worried that the new MP6 may only get me half way there, whereas the FP-7f/NX will possibly get me 90% of the way. I hope I'm wrong and that the playing field will be more even.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by theJourney
It seems to me that any reasonable person buys the total package. What is the point of playing on the theoretically best keyboard if you aren't happy with the sound of the instrument? It sounds a bit perverse to me.


That's why I'm worried that the new MP6 may only get me half way there, whereas the FP-7f/NX will possibly get me 90% of the way. I hope I'm wrong and that the playing field will be more even.


What are you basing that preconception on though? I've read a quite a few opinions where people chose the MP5 over Roland's RD series as they felt they were more a 'piano' experience than the Roland RD's.

I personally haven't decided yet as I haven't tried a Kawai yet, but I have tried the Rolands on a number of occasions. I'm really hoping the MP5 and hopefully the MP6 are good competition with the newest RD's in the sound and playability department. That's why i'm interested..
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 09:15 AM

Isn't interresting though, how none of these products brings something new to the game. Kawai has the RM3 Grand, UPHI. Roland has the SN sounds, PHA III action out already. This is just repackaging really.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by FredFabulous
Isn't interresting though, how none of these products brings something new to the game. Kawai has the RM3 Grand, UPHI. Roland has the SN sounds, PHA III action out already. This is just repackaging really.


Well, actually it is bringing these actions and sounds to parts of their line-up that didn't yet have them and making other incremental improvements or changes such as to user interface. In the case of Roland, the move has been quite rational: bring out superior technology in the top of the line brand new unit, then apply it to the high volume/high margin cabinet pianos, then add it to the low volume furniture like pianos and finally put it in the high volume slabs.

It will be very interesting to see what Yamaha decides to do / is able to do in the next 18 months. They seem to be behind in both actions and sound engine. Roland seems to be aggressively putting their best action and sound in as much of the lineup as possible while Kawai continues to segment, although not as much as Yamaha.

Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 10:12 AM

Yamaha is the 600 pound gorilla of the piano industry.
When you kick a Gorilla ... expect to get kicked back .... HARD.
Yamaha will be bringing some interesting stuff to the table over the next 12 months.


Originally Posted by theJourney

It will be very interesting to see what Yamaha decides to do / is able to do in the next 18 months.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by theJourney
It seems to me that any reasonable person buys the total package. What is the point of playing on the theoretically best keyboard if you aren't happy with the sound of the instrument? It sounds a bit perverse to me.


That's why I'm worried that the new MP6 may only get me half way there, whereas the FP-7f/NX will possibly get me 90% of the way. I hope I'm wrong and that the playing field will be more even.


What are you basing that preconception on though? I've read a quite a few opinions where people chose the MP5 over Roland's RD series as they felt they were more a 'piano' experience than the Roland RD's.

I personally haven't decided yet as I haven't tried a Kawai yet, but I have tried the Rolands on a number of occasions. I'm really hoping the MP5 and hopefully the MP6 are good competition with the newest RD's in the sound and playability department. That's why i'm interested..


It's less of a preconception and more of a concern. Kawai has decided to segment the "pro" market, reserving the best sound for the (in my case) impossibly heavy MP10. Given all that has been said about the difference between PHI and UPHI, the latter is more detailed and expressive due, at least in part, to greater memory (and probably more layers). With the Roland, I get their best sound engine plus their best action in a (just about) totable package for a few hundred more.

Frankly, I doubt whether the older MP5 can compete with the new Rolands. Going purely on the youtube videos available, the new SN sound engine sounds much better than the older one. I have to say that I didn't much care for the RD700GX pianos, and actually preferred what was in my 300SX. Also, all stage Rolands have had 88 key sampling for a while, whereas the MP5 was a stretched sample-set. However, the MP5 had a nicer action than the 300-series' almost semi-weighted feel.

It's difficult to tell from the one MP6 video I've seen how good it's actually going to be. The sounds are nice, but I thought I detected a slightly clipped quality to the samples, although I can't be sure - particularly on a compressed youtube video. Dewster's analysis of PHI suggests quite short initial samples before going into looping. How that actually translates into the playing experience, I have no idea yet.

As I said previously, I hope the differences between the two technologies (SN and PHI) will be less pronounced than the specifications suggest. I want the MP6 to be a winner - if Kawai had not chosen to throttle it back, it probably would have been...
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops


As I said previously, I hope the differences between the two technologies (SN and PHI) will be less pronounced than the specifications suggest. I want the MP6 to be a winner - if Kawai had not chosen to throttle it back, it probably would have been...


When you say 'Throttle is back', what are you basing that comment on, out of interest? The differences between that and the MP5 haven't sunk in yet. Especially the differences between the RD's and the MP6..
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
When you say 'Throttle it back', what are you basing that comment on, out of interest? The differences between that and the MP5 haven't sunk in yet. Especially the differences between the RD's and the MP6..


By "throttle it back", I mean deciding to use PHI not UPHI.
Posted By: epitaf

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 04:32 PM

Seems there are new audio demos for the MP6 on Kawai Europes page, not just piano demos as on the US page:

http://kawai.de/mp6_en.htm
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops


By "throttle it back", I mean deciding to use PHI not UPHI.


Thx. Very informative.. I'm a sucker for all the details so your opinion is helping a load..

The thing is. My friends 700Sx sounds and feels pretty great to me. If the Mp5, or ideally the Mp6, sounded as good as that and had a similar or better keyboard then i'd probably be pretty chuffed as an owner. I'm in this to learn how to play the piano so I come from the point of view of having no experience as a piano player (fumbling on the keyboard yes...).
Posted By: blueston

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer

What are you basing that preconception on though? I've read a quite a few opinions where people chose the MP5 over Roland's RD series as they felt they were more a 'piano' experience than the Roland RD's.



That is a tough statement to believe. There is no way the MP5 beats the RD700GX on any metric that I can think of. However, it is fair to say it does compete more directly with the RD300GX.

I have seen several opinions that did not like RD300 action so I could see people choosing the Kawai MP5 on those grounds. Even so, personally I think the MP5 action is heavier but not necessarily better response wise.

Also, the sound is not even comparable IMO. Overall, I have a really tough time agreeing that the MP5 is a better overall piano than any of the RD's and would be surprised if" many" others thought so, but I could be wrong.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 05:59 PM

I think you are wrong.
Posted By: rennspec

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 09:16 PM

Could someone please explain to me the difference between "zones" in mp6 and "sections" in mp10?
I certainly know what zones are, and at first I understood "sections" to be different sections of sound banks - piano, etc... but then when Kawai info mentions zones in MP6, they mention sections in MP10. And so I'm beginning to be afraid that MP10 will have no zones... Which.. to me is unthinkable... So I'm really hoping that someone here will say "Oh no, sections are just zones with more control, etc"... or some such thing.

thanks!.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 09:18 PM

MP5/MP6 competes with the RD-300.
MP8/MP10 competes with the RD-700.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by rennspec
Could someone please explain to me the difference between "zones" in mp6 and "sections" in mp10?
I certainly know what zones are, and at first I understood "sections" to be different sections of sound banks - piano, etc... but then when Kawai info mentions zones in MP6, they mention sections in MP10. And so I'm beginning to be afraid that MP10 will have no zones... Which.. to me is unthinkable... So I'm really hoping that someone here will say "Oh no, sections are just zones with more control, etc"... or some such thing.


MP10 interface is so streamlined and easy to understand that it almost it self-explained. For what I've understood MP10 sections are just like zones, but with, in fact, less control.

Each one of the zones (Piano, Elecrtic Piano, Sub and MIDI) can be layered on top, or next to the other ones, so you have in fact 4 zones, and I guess that you should be able to map them on the keyboard at your wish (the same as zones on MP6). BUT, each zone has its own sounds. For instance you cannot select a piano sound for the Sub zone.

Maybe it seems a limitation. Indeed it is. But you only have 27 sounds in the MP10 (9 for each section, and the 4th zone, MIDI, is for external instrument so it does not have any sound on its own) compared to 256 on MP6 and former MP8. Less sounds but of higher quality. So the sections have sense as they are, if I understood them right. I guess that in MP10 ease of use has been prioritized over control.

Kudos for the interface designer. From the ease of use point of view, MP10 interface is scratching perfection.

And I suspect that each one of the sections can be used as a MIDI section if you wish. So as a MIDI controller it would keep all the possibilities that you have with MP6 (for instance controlling up to 4 external MIDI instruments).
Posted By: rennspec

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/18/10 11:52 PM

whew...that's not too bad then... so I would be able to split the keyboard and send midi to my pc for contrabass, and have a section on mp10 for piano... I feel better now.. thanks for your reply.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 12:42 AM

kurtie, rennspec,

Quote
And I suspect that each one of the sections can be used as a MIDI section if you wish. So as a MIDI controller it would keep all the possibilities that you have with MP6 (for instance controlling up to 4 external MIDI instruments).


I'm afraid this is not correct.

Only the MIDI section can be used to control external instruments - the PIANO, E.PIANO, and SUB sections are used to control the internal generator and do not send MIDI CC# information.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: rennspec

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 03:26 AM

James, thanks. So I suppose it would still be possible to activate midi section that covers a part or the entire keyboard, and split the keys at the host to play as many virtual instruments as one would like?

Regarding "controlling" 4 external midi instruments - so I understand MP10 won't control all 4 at the same time, but is there any way to switch between virtual instruments quickly?

thank you.
Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Yamaha is the 600 pound gorilla of the piano industry.
When you kick a Gorilla ... expect to get kicked back .... HARD.
Yamaha will be bringing some interesting stuff to the table over the next 12 months.


Originally Posted by theJourney

It will be very interesting to see what Yamaha decides to do / is able to do in the next 18 months.




Interesting comment, given that it has not been too long since the release of the CP-1-5-50 line.

It is possible for one of the big three --Yamaha, Kawai, Roland --to shatter the current concept of the stage pianos (incremental increases of piddly sample memory every few years). Often, leaders get to the gorilla status by being the first to take a leap.

Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
MP5/MP6 competes with the RD-300.
MP8/MP10 competes with the RD-700.

Cheers,
James
x


From your own knowledge based on the the history of the, well, competition as it were. Do you feel the MP5 competed with the RD-300GX or the SX? I didn't like the SX very much. It was good, but the main piano sounds just didn't give the same sense of realism that the 700SX's main piano did at all.

If the MP6 is still to be released, do you feel it will compete with the 300GX or the inevitable 300NX? I'm starting to think that the 300NX will have the SN piano which will make it very hard for the more knowledgable buyer to see the MP6 as the better choice when it comes to piano sounds. That said, I don't know how the MP6 is going to sound compared to the MP5 or the 300GX (which I see as being a small 700GX with the 700SX piano sounds).

Not that i've played either (or can actually play the piano at all for that matter.. wink )
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 01:39 PM

When I see all the reactions on the MP6 in all different threads I cannot jump to another conclusion than that (almost) everybody is disappointed by the lack of high quality (UHPI or better) piano sounds. And that , in comparison , the Roland line-up better meets that need for a good basic acoustic. So when people are still in limbo about wether to buy the MP6 or not, it's the other details (keybed, master-controller functions) that will influence the decision the most. So basic question is...is the MP6 as a whole worth it's money ? Or are there better options available from competitors in the same price range. I think it's a tough one. Kawai could have made this a simple yes, by not "throttling back" on the basic sound as Voxpop said so well. MP6EX anyone ? Perhaps at NAMM ?

Still undecided, really trying to like the Kawai, but more and more leaning toward SN machine, taking all things in consideration...- it could have been so wonderful ;-)
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

For an 'at a glance' comparison of Kawai's digital piano instruments, please refer to this PDF - note that there is a brief explanation of the various DP features on the inside back page.

Kind regards,
James
x


With refererence to RM3 picture (found in that PDF), I can't understand where is the key pivot point. It should be at the base of the key, but it's not so clear, while it is in its side RH picture.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 02:50 PM

Let me put it this way.

The MP10 looks like a fabulous instrument, but since I need to be able to perform with it, it's a non-starter.

The MP6 has some nice features: new action, good midi capabilities, new EPs etc; and it's lighter than an RD or FP.

BUT: due to the paucity of in-store Kawai stage models, it will require a leap of faith to purchase one. I would have been prepared to take that leap if Kawai had said (like Roland) "here, we've put the best software technology that we have into our MP6." Then I would have known that I was getting the best that that company can produce at this time, compromising only on the plastic action, XLRs and other peripherals. Even if the resulting sound had been slightly less authentic than Roland's SN, I would still be playing an instrument worthy of admiration, and one with a reasonable "shelf-life". The fact that I now have to take that leap of faith knowing that this is not Kawai's best and that it probably falls well short of SN, means that long-term satisfaction may be off the table. Do the other features make up for it? For those who will use it for VST instruments, maybe; but I am not going to be hooking up my laptop for performances, with all the attendant problems that introduces. That is why the internal sounds matter a lot to me. However, like most stage keyboardists, I don't need 250+ internal sounds. I need excellent pianos, EPs, organs, and maybe strings/pads (very occasionally). Anything "exotic" can be catered for by a second dedicated board or expander, which will probably do it better anyway.

Let's face it, $1,500 is not Casio territory: why not let Casio cater to the entry market with the do-it-all approach? Kawai should be saying: "this is our lighter-weight stage instrument, featuring the same world-class sounds as the MP10. No compromise on expressiveness or sonic reproduction: this instrument will do full justice to your playing, whether it's classical at the conservatory or rock at the arena." Instead, it's more like, "break your back or ride second-class."

My playing improves with a better instrument. Just because I gig doesn't mean I don't play with subtlety of expression. This time around I want something that I can grow into. I was ready to take a leap of faith, but I need the manufacturer to give me the right tools.

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 02:56 PM

Rimmer, I honestly cannot recall playing an RD-300 - indeed, I don't believe this model is available in Japan.

However, I gather that the RD-300 utilises the PHA 'alpha' keyboard action, which I expect is inferior (i.e. less realistic) to the AHA IV-e action in the MP5.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 02:57 PM

I think your jumping the gun a bit. Hardly anyone has really had a chance with the MP6's sound. And I would bet its AP sounds are highly competitive with its direct rivals the RD300GX and CP50 plus its a few hundred cheaper then either.
I played the MP10 and considered it to be a real competitor against the RD700NX and CP5. The real problem is that not many people can play a MP6/MP10 because of Kawai's limited distribution where as everyone can see a Roland or Yamaha because they are in every major store.
Will it compete with a future RD300 with SN or a revised CP50 ? Maybe, maybe not, you can only compare whats available now.


Originally Posted by JFP
When I see all the reactions on the MP6 in all different threads I cannot jump to another conclusion than that (almost) everybody is disappointed by the lack of high quality (UHPI or better) piano sounds. And that , in comparison , the Roland line-up better meets that need for a good basic acoustic. So when people are still in limbo about wether to buy the MP6 or not, it's the other details (keybed, master-controller functions) that will influence the decision the most. So basic question is...is the MP6 as a whole worth it's money ? Or are there better options available from competitors in the same price range. I think it's a tough one. Kawai could have made this a simple yes, by not "throttling back" on the basic sound as Voxpop said so well. MP6EX anyone ? Perhaps at NAMM ?

Still undecided, really trying to like the Kawai, but more and more leaning toward SN machine, taking all things in consideration...- it could have been so wonderful ;-)
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 03:01 PM

Indeed it is for a stage piano for live performance about as good as it possibly could get. Within 30 seconds I was maneuvering about the boards settings. Its that simple and that easy.


Originally Posted by kurtie


Kudos for the interface designer. From the ease of use point of view, MP10 interface is scratching perfection.


Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 03:06 PM

Qbert,

The 'RM3 Grand' action keys pivot on a central balance pin (different placements for black and white keys), just like a grand piano.

The pivot point for the 'RH' action is at the back of the key, just like most other digital piano keyboard actions.

Please refer to the higher resolution action images linked in this thread for a closer look.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't need 250+ internal sounds. I need excellent pianos, EPs, organs, and maybe strings/pads (very occasionally). Anything "exotic" can be catered for by a second dedicated board or expander, which will probably do it better anyway.

Let's face it, $1,500 is not Casio territory: why not let Casio cater to the entry market with the do-it-all approach?


I think Kawai has created some confusion by marketing the MP6 and MP10 as related instruments (by their designation and a common marketing brochure, for example). They are really two entirely different kinds of instruments, taking different approaches.

The MP6 is a multi-function piano-oriented performance keyboard and MIDI controller. Although the specific feature sets are different, I would say that functional competitors would be Casio PX-3, Kurzweil SP4-7 (and future SP4-8), Nord Stage EX, Yamaha S70XS and S90XS, Roland RD-300 and RD-700 series.

The MP10 is a high end Digital Piano, with limited additional use... fewer additional sounds, more limited MIDI controller functionality, focus on high end piano sound and feel. Despite their wide range of differences, other models I would put in this general category would be Nord Piano, Korg SV-1, Roland V-Piano, and Yamaha CP-1, CP-5, CP-50 (even though these last two do have hundreds of other sounds).

I know, James said "MP5/MP6 competes with the RD-300. MP8/MP10 competes with the RD-700." And in some respects, I can see that (i.e. looked at from the perspective of action and price). But when you look at the feature sets as a whole, and the priorities of their prospective purchasers, I think that, conceptually, the split I described makes more sense.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by JFP


Still undecided, really trying to like the Kawai, but more and more leaning toward SN machine, taking all things in consideration...- it could have been so wonderful ;-)


On paper, i'm feeling exactly like you are. The FP7F is starting to interest me more than the MP6 although I really want to like the MP6 more than the FP7 for some reason.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Getting them both side by side could be an issue (although I think I might have the option in Bristol in the Uk if I time it right). Only then can we really decide.

Some of the differences between UHPI, SN etc... etc... etc... remind me of some of the conversations I have had with people over different ribbon/condensor/dynamic microphones and/or recording equipment. The reality can be soo much different when the equipment is in the hands of the owner. The differences discussed are obviously valid but i'm not convinced that once we get these things home that they would be enough to make you feel like you've made a bad decision. I don't know... I'm just starting to feel that we are discussing relatively minor details in the grand scheme of things.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think Kawai has created some confusion by marketing the MP6 and MP10 as related instruments (by their designation and a common marketing brochure, for example). They are really two entirely different kinds of instruments, taking different approaches.

The MP6 is a multi-function piano-oriented performance keyboard and MIDI controller.

Which means that there is a missing instrument in Kawai's line-up: a portable (as opposed to transportable) top quality stage piano. Something that will compete directly with the RD-700NX and the CP5. Damn, it! If I have to, I'll design it myself. I would really like to buy a Kawai (maybe because they're not Roland - definitely because they're not Yamaha - but principally because they make a beautiful acoustic!). confused
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
I'm not convinced that once we get these things home that they would be enough to make you feel like you've made a bad decision. I don't know... I'm just starting to feel that we are discussing relatively minor details in the grand scheme of things.

You may be right, and, like you, for some reason the notion of the MP6 appeals to me more than the FP-7f. However, if the difference was so small between PHI and UPHI, there would be no reason for Kawai to have the two running side-by-side. James has already said that UPHI is more detailed and expressive. I don't want to just live with my purchase, I want to love it! 3hearts
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 07:38 PM

"...I would say that functional competitors would be Casio PX-3, Kurzweil SP4-7 (and future SP4-8), Nord Stage EX, Yamaha S70XS and S90XS, Roland RD-300 and RD-700 series."

Casio PX-3 is a competitor in functionality, but in a cheaper price range which is easy to understand considering the build 'quality' and quality of the sounds (usable but so, so).

Kurzweil SP4....uhm...how long can you recycle the same old technology again...again...and again...not really interesting.

Nord Stage EX - way other segment (more bells&whistles, high-end / high price)

Yamaha S..SX - other segment , same as Nord Stage - different approach, more workstation alike.

RD300GX - OK , that's in the same range. But it has aged and is due for replacement, so let's see what they'll have next , RD300NX ?

RD700GX/NX is not in the same range, but in the MP10 range of instruments.

So, in fact the MP6 does a nice job for now filling a niche in a certain price segment, but the competition may not wait long before their boards are replaced by updated models. Perhaps that will already happen before the MP6 actually hits the street, or at it's latest at the next NAMM. Knowing that makes it a hard buy just for the short time being that the MP6 is the only interesting model in it's particular range. When you are prepared to spend just a little more money , the choice will immediately become more blurred by FP7F's and other competitors.

When possible I'll try both first. If that's not possible (at least for the MP6), it will be a very touch choice. But I hope when someone respected for his/her non-biased opinion and with the right playing skills is thrilled by the board , despite some of the mentioned drawbacks, I will still be persuaded to go for it. (Pity the MP10 is too heavy ; would have made this so much easier...)
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
So, in fact the MP6 does a nice job for now filling a niche in a certain price segment, but the competition may not wait long before their boards are replaced by updated models. Perhaps that will already happen before the MP6 actually hits the street, or at it's latest at the next NAMM. Knowing that makes it a hard buy just for the short time being that the MP6 is the only interesting model in it's particular range. When you are prepared to spend just a little more money , the choice will immediately become more blurred by FP7F's and other competitors.

When possible I'll try both first. If that's not possible (at least for the MP6), it will be a very touch choice. But I hope when someone respected for his/her non-biased opinion and with the right playing skills is thrilled by the board , despite some of the mentioned drawbacks, I will still be persuaded to go for it. (Pity the MP10 is too heavy ; would have made this so much easier...)


My sentiments precisely. If the MP10 (minus wooden keys) was around 50lbs or less, I would already have placed my order.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
the MP6 does a nice job for now filling a niche in a certain price segment, but
.
.
.
When you are prepared to spend just a little more money , the choice will immediately become more blurred by FP7F's and other competitors.


To me, the FP7F is more in the MP10 category than the MP6 category, in terms of overall functionality. Okay, it has a bunch of other sounds. But I see it really as a Digital Piano more than a multipurpose instrument. Unlike the 300/700 series or the MP6, it has very little flexibility in terms of splits/layers or MIDI master controller functions.
Posted By: egallego

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/19/10 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops

Which means that there is a missing instrument in Kawai's line-up: a portable (as opposed to transportable) top quality stage piano.

Well, I'd guess this is difficult to achieve given the weight of Kawai's "RM3 Grand with Let-off 88 wooden keys with Ivory Touch key surfaces" action.

I have to test a Kawai again, but after playing some real grand pianos I think my choice will be a piano with full wooden keys, and AFAIK only the Kawai has it in the sub-5000$ range. And indeed I think for classical players it is a "must have" feature.

BTW, I looked hard but I didn't see a picture of the PHAIII action, does it have full-length wooden keys? What about the pivots? Should I open a new thread? smile I think it is similar in design to Kawai's RH action, certainly not full-length.

Kawai certainly has things to enhance: sound and repetition rate of the RM3 action; but given the sorrow state of the competition (look at what Yamaha is DOING!), and competitive pricing versus Roland, a Kawai DP becomes a very likely choice for me. Of course, they need more competition.

It seems each manufacturer like to show their best features, dewster smile Kawai even has glass-bound actions demo-models so customers can see the how the action works when pressing a key, while Roland praises its High-tech SN sound engine in a nice video.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by egallego
BTW, I looked hard but I didn't see a picture of the PHAIII action, does it have full-length wooden keys? What about the pivots? Should I open a new thread? smile I think it is similar in design to Kawai's RH action, certainly not full-length.
Yep.

The PHA III shot from Roland's RD-700NX product page

Which to my eyes is no different than this from the RD-700GX page, so take it with a grain of salt.[Linked Image]

Compare to Kawai's RH action

Same basic principle. The difference is in the details.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by egallego
Well, I'd guess this is difficult to achieve given the weight of Kawai's "RM3 Grand with Let-off 88 wooden keys with Ivory Touch key surfaces" action.

I have to test a Kawai again, but after playing some real grand pianos I think my choice will be a piano with full wooden keys, and AFAIK only the Kawai has it in the sub-5000$ range. And indeed I think for classical players it is a "must have" feature.


If by "full wooden keys" you mean keys that are the same length as keys on a real grand piano, you will be disappointed. They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter (with the notable exception of the Yamaha Avantgrand which actually has an authentic wooden grand piano action built in but costs as much as a real piano too).

What specifically do you see about wooden keys as being a "must have" feature for classical players? Proper emulation of letoff and double escapement and three sensors to provide rapid key repetition? If so, then Kawai doesn't have it and is thus less appropriate for trained classical players than other keyboards.

It is telling that most of the classical players that have been lucky enough to actually audition various instruments side by side rather than order them sight unseen and who later reported on their decisions here have generally have chosen the Roland.

The Kawai seems to be the most popular with brand new piano students or those playing new age church hymns. The fact that many of the Kawai models with their best keyboard come equipped with beginner's books and lessons, Czerny exercises, etc. seems to indicate that Kawai has been aiming up to date with the RM3 keyboard at the beginner's market. After all, most classical piano teachers are quite snobbish about their students only practicing on an acoustic piano and are thus also susceptible to marketing games touting a "wooden" keyboard as a potentially acceptable digital piano.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney
If by "full wooden keys" you mean keys that are the same length as keys on a real grand piano, you will be disappointed. They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter (with the notable exception of the Yamaha Avantgrand which actually has an authentic wooden grand piano action built in but costs as much as a real piano too).

I have to correct you: The RM3 keys have about the same length as of a real acoustic piano. See this picture:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_5810.jpg

Other plastic keys like on the Roland PHAxx and Yamaha RHxx are much shorter.

Originally Posted by theJourney

It is telling that most of the classical players that have been lucky enough to actually audition various instruments side by side rather than order them sight unseen and who later reported on their decisions here have generally have chosen the Roland.


What kind of general statement is that? Do you have a proof of this? BS.

Originally Posted by theJourney

The Kawai seems to be the most popular with brand new piano students or those playing new age church hymns. The fact that many of the Kawai models with their best keyboard come equipped with beginner's books and lessons, Czerny exercises, etc. seems to indicate that Kawai has been aiming up to date with the RM3 keyboard at the beginner's market.


So for you the real thing is Roland while Kawai is just for bloody beginners... BS! You're getting offending again. Playing new age church hymns? You're again starting to degrade people that are in favor of something you apparently don't like.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 10:54 AM

I have read some years ago in a journal that among Roland Kawai and Yamaha, Yamaha GH(3) has the largest distance measured from keyfront to pivot point. Kawai has the shortest ;-).

Closely looking to the images of the RM3, it appears to me, that they have made the white keys even a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys, because these would be too short after this modification...

Peter
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by theJourney
If by "full wooden keys" you mean keys that are the same length as keys on a real grand piano, you will be disappointed. They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter (with the notable exception of the Yamaha Avantgrand which actually has an authentic wooden grand piano action built in but costs as much as a real piano too).

I have to correct you: The RM3 keys have about the same length as of a real acoustic piano. See this picture:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_5810.jpg

Other plastic keys like on the Roland PHAxx and Yamaha RHxx are much shorter.

Originally Posted by theJourney

It is telling that most of the classical players that have been lucky enough to actually audition various instruments side by side rather than order them sight unseen and who later reported on their decisions here have generally have chosen the Roland.


What kind of general statement is that? Do you have a proof of this? BS.

Originally Posted by theJourney

The Kawai seems to be the most popular with brand new piano students or those playing new age church hymns. The fact that many of the Kawai models with their best keyboard come equipped with beginner's books and lessons, Czerny exercises, etc. seems to indicate that Kawai has been aiming up to date with the RM3 keyboard at the beginner's market.


So for you the real thing is Roland while Kawai is just for bloody beginners... BS! You're getting offending again. Playing new age church hymns? You're again starting to degrade people that are in favor of something you apparently don't like.


No, I (again) have to correct you: the keys even on Kawai's best digital keyboard, the RM3, are shorter than those on an acoustic grand piano. If you don't believe me, ask James.

If you want proof of the other statements, you only have to open your eyes and read the posts here for the past few years. Simply use google on this forum examining the posts containing the results of those threads detailing the demographics and purchase decisions of those who have actually auditioned the pianos side by side as well as those containing the playing samples provided for illustrations. You will find among the Kawai purchasers a preponderance of beginners and non-classical pianists. There is nothing wrong with that. After all, the sales were made! However, it does tend to contradict the statement up thread about classical pianists to which I was responding and to which you are interrupting.

Kawai makes no secret of the fact that they go after the beginner and learner markets and the church markets. Their marketing and advertising activities tend to reinforce this. In fact, it is a bloody smart business model to follow given that most pianos are purchased to learn the piano and many are purchased, particularly in North America and developing markets, for use in places of worship. An even smarter model to follow recognizing the role that piano teachers play in influencing purchasing decisions and making a connection between what conservative teachers might value as hot buttons and what their product offering is (wood).

Kawaian/mucci, instead of being so defensive about your own biases and taking things personally, why not be open to Kawai being that what they are in the real world?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney

No, I (again) have to correct you: the keys even on Kawai's best digital keyboard, the RM3, are shorter than those on an acoustic grand piano. If you don't believe me, ask James.

Kawaian/mucci, instead of being so defensive about your own biases and taking things personally, why not be open to Kawai being that what they are in the real world?


You can't just set your personal opinion as absolute. That's what I consider as arrogant and what I criticize: You define what Kawai is like in the real world and what their market is, and I just have to accept that... Weird... And criticizm of your opinion is of course not allowed. Never. Watch how you paraphrase things, and how you induce people. Sorry if my words are not 100% accurate, English is not my mother language.

I don't comment any further on your other statements, just this to the length of keys:

Well, it might not be the exact length of a piano key (I talked about an upright, BTW, which is different from a real grand piano action), but it's much longer than all the other DP keys (except for, as well known, the N2/N3).

And to hpeters comment: The pivot point is placed at a very similar position as in an acoustic piano, right in the middle, rather than at the very end of the key, so at least it's (probably) easier to implement a behaviour very similar to an acoustic piano action.

Real grand piano action (pivot point about in the middle, pivot of the black keys a little behind):
[Linked Image]

RM3 (pivot point about in the middle, pivot of the black keys a little behind):
[Linked Image]

Roland PHAIII (see pivot point at the very end, much shorter):
[Linked Image]

Yamaha NW (it's extremely difficult to find an illustration of any Yamaha keyboard action, so I have only this indirect link, pivot point at the very end, much shorter, there are only some thin pieces of wood applied to the visible sides of the white keys):
http://www.mediafire.com/?v4bpgf8m76w5fai

EDIT: Finally I found a picture of NW action I can directly link:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:11 PM

Nice comparison.
I asked the same question some posts above.
Is there any chance to compare PHAIII action too?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
Closely looking to the images of the RM3, it appears to me, that they have made the white keys even a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys, because these would be too short after this modification...


It's the other way round: The black keys are a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys (exactly like in a real acoustic piano). See my previous keyboard action comparison.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys, because these would be too short after this modification...


I believe that real pianos have the pivot points for black keys shifted as well. So then what you describe makes the RM3 more authentic, not less.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:21 PM

The question should be - does it really matter that much where the pivot point is in real-life use ? In other words - do you feel the difference when it's in the middle on the Rm3 or at the end as in de PHAIII, or are other parts of the key-technology more important for the touch&feel in the end ?

The only honest way to compare this, is if you would have a PHAIII with end pivot and exactly the same PHAIII with middle pivot, so only one variable is changed. Of course this is not possible in real-life. So perhaps we will never know if it's really that important for the end-user experience and it all comes down to just trying the different boards and choose the one you like best. Regardless of pivot-middle / -end / on top / bottom or anywhere else...

Cheers, J
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Qbert
Nice comparison.
I asked the same question some posts above.
Is there any chance to compare PHAIII action too?


The comparison consists of Real grand piano, Kawai RM3, Roland PHAIII and Yamaha NW. The latter three should be the most advanced DP actions currently available.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
What specifically do you see about wooden keys as being a "must have" feature for classical players? Proper emulation of letoff and double escapement and three sensors to provide rapid key repetition? If so, then Kawai doesn't have it and is thus less appropriate for trained classical players than other keyboards.

I don't know about wooden keys being a "must have" feature, except that, to the extent that one wants the keyboard to feel like an actual piano, since actual pianos have wooden keys, it is probably easier to get a little closer to a real feel if you use a wooden key than if you use something else to simulate the feel/mass of a wooden key.

As for whether "proper emulation of letoff and double escapement" is a requirement, I would say that, again, I would not necessarily see it as a "must have" feature, especially since most people (even trained classical players) find it acceptable to practice on an upright piano, which does not have these things.
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
The question should be - does it really matter that much where the pivot point is in real-life use ?
Cheers, J


Sure it is!

From the pictures, I don't see relevant difference between RM3 and PHAIII.

The touch action, from a mechanical and dynamical point of view, is influenced by the distance between the key and the pivot point. They both look similar and both are smaller then Real grand piano action.

May be PHAIII is a little bit longer than RM3 and it should help the touch. It deals with vertical excursion of the key. The more far is the pivot point, the more similar is vertical excursion all key surface along.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
The question should be - does it really matter that much where the pivot point is in real-life use ? In other words - do you feel the difference when it's in the middle on the Rm3 or at the end as in de PHAIII, or are other parts of the key-technology more important for the touch&feel in the end ?

The only honest way to compare this, is if you would have a PHAIII with end pivot and exactly the same PHAIII with middle pivot, so only one variable is changed. Of course this is not possible in real-life. So perhaps we will never know if it's really that important for the end-user experience and it all comes down to just trying the different boards and choose the one you like best. Regardless of pivot-middle / -end / on top / bottom or anywhere else...

Cheers, J


JFP, you're absolutely right. We should try the keyboard action and not speculate and get the one that fits us the best! On the other side it's interesting to see how differently keyboard actions could be built. It's like the DPBSD thread of dewster...

To changing one variable: If you would change just the pivot point of a keyboard action, then the other parameters of the keyboard would also need change, because everything is (I guess) fully optimized to a key that has pivot at the end of the key. So there is a completely new design of the action necessary, I would assume.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
You can't just set your personal opinion as absolute....I don't comment any further on your other statements, just this to the length of keys: <snip> <snip>


mucci, lots of pictures and lots of words, yet although you have accused me of not telling the truth, at the end of the day, even after your posts, my original statement remains standing and true and your criticism remains unfounded and misleading.

Originally Posted by theJourney
If by "full wooden keys" you mean keys that are the same length as keys on a real grand piano, you will be disappointed. They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter (with the notable exception of the Yamaha Avantgrand which actually has an authentic wooden grand piano action built in but costs as much as a real piano too).


As you now also have conceded, this is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact.

The comparison was to the "real wooden keys of an acoustic grand piano".

We have a situation in which the RM3 keys are shorter while still trying to look like an acoustic grand style pivot point and hammer/sensor placement. Just a little physics knowledge tells us that that is not going to provide the same leverage and response. Combine that with a much less realistic emulation of letoff/escapement and less signal granularity and repetition speed provided by fewer sensors combined with a less organic, static sounding piano tone engine and we are left with the key differentiating point being that the keys are made of wood and that the keyboard itself is less of a precision manufactured consumer product and instead assembled with keys that become uneven and screws that come loose and rattle and buzz and require servicing (see recent threads on this forum).
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Qbert
Sure it is!

From the pictures, I don't see relevant difference between RM3 and PHAIII.


I see relevant differences. The distance to the pivot point is only one parameter of a lot of other important parameters of a keyboard action. In the RM3, the pivot is not "fixed", it is just "laying freely", like in a real acoustic piano. So if you hit the key, the key can almost "jump" a little bit out of his keyboard bed (hope the word I use are correct). This is not possible with PHAIII. Furtermore I can almost "see" the thumping effect on the PHAIII action, because of the missing continuation of the key after the pivot point, etc. etc. But as I said: You have to test this for yourself, picture don't help in this respect whether you like an action or not.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
it all comes down to just trying the different boards and choose the one you like best. Regardless of pivot-middle / -end / on top / bottom or anywhere else...


Exactly right. Discussion of these various technical details is all interesting on an academic level, and may prompt some of us to actually want to try some of these models ourselves, and may ultimately explain why some of us prefer certain designs. But in terms of deciding what to purchase, it's not very relevant. What matters is, which one(s) you go over to, start to play, and say "ahhhhh." Regardless of which combination of technologies they use to get there.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney

mucci, lots of pictures and lots of words, yet although you have accused me of not telling the truth

NO, I never did accuse you of lying!!!! I said I have to correct you, because I though you were wrong!! That's a big difference! I had no problem with this specific part of your post! It was about the other stuff you posted.

Originally Posted by theJourney
They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter


They are longer than every other digital piano action (except for... you know). Full stop.

Originally Posted by theJourney

We have a situation in which the RM3 keys are shorter while still trying to look like an acoustic grand style pivot point and hammer/sensor placement. Just a little physics knowledge tells us that that is not going to provide the same leverage and response.

Like any other DP.
Originally Posted by theJourney

Combine that with a much less realistic emulation of letoff/escapement and less signal granularity and repetition speed provided by fewer sensors

proof?
Originally Posted by theJourney

combined with a less organic, static sounding piano tone engine

Proof? Compared to what? Sound depends on individual taste.
Originally Posted by theJourney

and we are left with the key differentiating point being that the keys are made of wood and that the keyboard itself is less of a precision manufactured consumer product

Proof???
Originally Posted by theJourney

and instead assembled with keys that become uneven and screws that come loose and rattle and buzz and require servicing (see recent threads on this forum).

Proof??

I'm sorry, but your statements are nothing like a big Kawai bashing. It's like a small kid yelling to get it's way all over again, but this is not helping us if it's true or not.

Some time ago you told us you would like to test a CA63 / CA93 in a store soon. What's about that? Don't tell us theory after looking at pictures or specs, get your own experience and then tell us what you like and what you don't like.

Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 01:07 PM

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...%20%22Official%22%20%20.html#Post1528568

Sorry, amusing but wrong post, should have been this one: wink
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1532856.html#Post1532856

...or this one:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1528396.html#Post1528396
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by theJourney

mucci, lots of pictures and lots of words, yet although you have accused me of not telling the truth

NO, I never did accuse you of lying!!!! I said I have to correct you, because I though you were wrong!! That's a big difference! I had no problem with this specific part of your post! It was about the other stuff you posted.

Originally Posted by theJourney
They are shorter just like every other digital piano action's keys are shorter


They are longer than every other digital piano action (except for... you know). Full stop.

Originally Posted by theJourney

We have a situation in which the RM3 keys are shorter while still trying to look like an acoustic grand style pivot point and hammer/sensor placement. Just a little physics knowledge tells us that that is not going to provide the same leverage and response.

Like any other DP.

Exactly. Therefore your claims that Kawai is equivalent to an acoustic grand piano or superior to other digitals based on having the same length of keys of an acoustic grand is false.
Originally Posted by mucci


Originally Posted by theJourney

Combine that with a much less realistic emulation of letoff/escapement and less signal granularity and repetition speed provided by fewer sensors

proof?

The RM3 on the CA63 doesn't even implement it.
Two is one fewer sensor than three.
Not being an implemented feature and having fewer sensors is pretty good proof that the feature is not implemented and that there are fewer sensors.
Originally Posted by mucci

Originally Posted by theJourney

combined with a less organic, static sounding piano tone engine

Proof? Compared to what? Sound depends on individual taste.

And your individual taste has you jury rigging a netbook loaded with Pianoteq to get an acceptable tone. Do you see the hypocrisy? See the DPMSD thread for more details on the objective proof the less organic sounding decay for example.
Originally Posted by mucci

Originally Posted by theJourney

and we are left with the key differentiating point being that the keys are made of wood and that the keyboard itself is less of a precision manufactured consumer product

Proof???
Originally Posted by theJourney

and instead assembled with keys that become uneven and screws that come loose and rattle and buzz and require servicing (see recent threads on this forum).

Proof??

For just one recent example:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...awai%20CA63%20vs%20CA93.html#Post1538520

If you want you can find lots more ever since the CA51 came out.
Originally Posted by mucci

I'm sorry, but your statements are nothing like a big Kawai bashing. It's like a small kid yelling to get it's way all over again, but this is not helping us if it's true or not.

Some time ago you told us you would like to test a CA63 / CA93 in a store soon. What's about that? Don't tell us theory after looking at pictures or specs, get your own experience and then tell us what you like and what you don't like.



I did post my initial impressions of playing a CA63 a long time ago. You even responded to them. Do you want me to prove that we had that conversation already as well or do you remember even what you have posted in the past?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Exactly. Therefore your claims that Kawai is equivalent to an acoustic grand piano or superior to other digitals based on having the same length of keys of an acoustic grand is false.


Kawai RM3 action is much more equivalent to an acoustic piano than other DP actions. I never said it's identical to to AP action. I never said it's therefore superior. You have to test drive it to find out.

Originally Posted by theJourney

The RM3 on the CA63 doesn't even implement it.
Two is one fewer sensor than three.
Not being an implemented feature and having fewer sensors is pretty good proof that the feature is not implemented and that there are fewer sensors.


Again, you're only looking at the design and not how the actions feels.

Originally Posted by theJourney

And your individual taste has you jury rigging a netbook loaded with Pianoteq to get an acceptable tone. Do you see the hypocrisy? See the DPMSD thread for more details on the objective proof the less organic sounding decay for example.


You take whatever you like to get proof of your biased opinion, eh? I would also use a similar combination with both Roland and Yamaha DPs. I even like the sound of Kawai DPs better than Roland SN, but that's personal taste. I stated that several times, but you seem to ignore this (deliberately?).

Originally Posted by theJourney

For just one recent example:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...awai%20CA63%20vs%20CA93.html#Post1538520

If you want you can find lots more ever since the CA51 came out.


Same applies to other DPs. See Roland artificial ivory problems, buzz/hiss problems etc. Don't think that Kawai has more quality problems than other manufacturers.

Originally Posted by theJourney

I did post my initial impressions of playing a CA63 a long time ago. You even responded to them. Do you want me to prove that we had that conversation already as well or do you remember even what you have posted in the past?


Okay, that's about initial impressions... Any desire to perform a more in-depth test as you stated in one of your recent posts?
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
See the DPMSD thread for more details on the objective proof the less organic sounding decay for example.

Well, I have one comment here because of the current lack of possibilities for objective testing using a Midi-file (as also admitted by Dewster): this was only a basic test of the standard concert grand single voice mode with firmware v1.06, while leaving out all sympathetic resonances, right? That's not what I call a realistic and objective testing environment, especially when making direct comparisons to competitors afterwards. By the way, there's nothing static about a CA93/CA63 in dual voice mode, but we'd better not mention it here, because Pianoteq, Roland and Yamaha cannot follow, right?

About the advanced dual voice mode:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1489257.html#Post1489257
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 01:57 PM

I was listening to the MP6 audio demos a couple of days ago (German site I think) and noticed a rather static/flat decay to the final sustained bass note. I was actually grateful that Kawai didn't do the usual manufacturer's trick of only demonstrating with fast/staccato passages. I think this reinforces what people have been saying about where Kawai's sound technology stands in relation to the competition. Having said that, I find the overall tone pleasing. Your opinions?
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I was listening to the MP6 audio demos a couple of days ago (German site I think) and noticed a rather static/flat decay to the final sustained bass note.

The basic sound signature seems to be partly comparable to CN33 [PHI] level, so I'm not surprised about your remark on the bass note, but I'd have to do some live tests to confirm. Based on what I've heard so far, i.m.h.o. Kawai could benefit from professional presets development for the MP6, as there seems to be a lot of headroom (e.g. having 4 sound layers at your disposal) and 256-preset space with USB load/save options.

OT: voxpops, you're also very welcome at the CA93/CA63 custom settings thread. smile
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Based on what I've heard so far, i.m.h.o. Kawai could benefit from professional presets development for the MP6, as there seems to be a lot of headroom (e.g. having 4 sound layers at your disposal) and 256-preset space with USB load/save options.


Guess who could possibly be the main contributor to MP6 presets! wink
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by hpeterh
Closely looking to the images of the RM3, it appears to me, that they have made the white keys even a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys, because these would be too short after this modification...


It's the other way round: The black keys are a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys (exactly like in a real acoustic piano). See my previous keyboard action comparison.


This is my action (AWA Grand Pro)
[Linked Image]

This is the RM3 action:
[Linked Image]
It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.
For the black keys it is of course much smaller.

They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos. So they made the white keys shorter and the black keys got a shifted pivot.

Now, what does this all mean? IMO it does not mean that the Kawai action is better, because they have the largest Pivot-Keyfront distance. It is much more complicated:
For the white key they have probably the smallest distance, compared to Yamaha and Roland. For the black keys, they have possibly the largest distance.
Unique for the kawai keys is that they have much more mass and therefore capture the hammer-bounce back better and therefore play more smooth and quietly. Mass intertia goes up with keylength. (Of course only if the key has considerable mass)

Of course thats much too complicated for advertising. Therefore they advertise the longest keys, Thats simply wrong and marketing speech. For the white keys they have definitely the shortest keys ;-)

Look to their image of the RM3.
[Linked Image]
A layman will have a hard time to see wether the left or the right pivot belongs to the white key. It is so unclear.
;-)

Peter
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I was listening to the MP6 audio demos a couple of days ago (German site I think) and noticed a rather static/flat decay to the final sustained bass note.

It seems Kawai UPH and Yamaha SCM are both doing essentially the same thing: a longer attack sample coupled to a very short, highly processed loop sample. I welcome the longer attack, but I can't help but feel the the short loop is - regardless of how well it is done - a technological step backwards.

I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.
Posted By: Bluestone

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 06:37 PM

Dewster:

I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.

______________________
My thoughts exactly! smile
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.


I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow. I don't think they would be useful in a DP, except for storage of different sounds, if you were willing to live with substantial load time for loading different sounds into real RAM when switching sounds.

SD card is slower than hard drive, but has the benefit of small size, no moving parts, no real power requirement. SSD is faster than hard drive, much more expensive... but still not as fast as real memory.

I believe that DPs store their sound in custom ROMs. These are not off-the-shelf parts, so would not be produced in the kinds of price-lowering quantity as off-the-shelf parts.

Alternatively, in theory, getting back to the top of the message, I suppose DPs could store their sounds on SD or SSD, and load them in at startup. That should minimize the need for custom ROM, but would still require a good bunch of RAM and would also involve additional "boot time" for the keyboard. But I admit I'm talking at the edge of my knowledgeability here.
Posted By: elecmuse3

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 06:59 PM

Quote
Alternatively, in theory, getting back to the top of the message, I suppose DPs could store their sounds on SD or SSD, and load them in at startup. That should minimize the need for custom ROM, but would still require a good bunch of RAM and would also involve additional "boot time" for the keyboard. But I admit I'm talking at the edge of my knowledgeability here.


Edge of mine too, but seems worth the extra $80 or $100 retail to use an 8g flash Ram and 8 gig of fast regular RAM, and an extra 10 seconds of startup time to get an immense sample set. Kawai James?
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 07:05 PM

My past DPs were a Roland Fantom G8 and 700SX. I was never quite happy with the action or piano sounds on my Rolands and ended up selling them and buying the Yamaha CP1, which is fantastic. Recently, I auditioned a Shigeru Kawai SK3 and absoultely fell in love with the tone and perfect action. Everyone has their preferences, but for me, the SK3 was piano perfection.

In any case, I am selling my Steinway to get the Shigeru Kawai SK3 and am considering selling my CP1 and picking up the MP10. As amazing as the CP1 is, I'm hoping for a slightly heavier action with the graded action on MP10. Too much practicing on the CP1 is leaving my fingers a little too light. If the pricing on the MP10 is low enough maybe I can keep both.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
[quote=dewster]I'll say it again: I can
I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow. I don't think they would be useful in a DP, except for storage of different sounds, if you were willing to live with substantial load time for loading different sounds into real RAM when switching sounds.


Even a slow 30 MB/sec thumb would theoretically be able to feed up to 200 simultaneous voices at 48000 Khz / 24 bit. 200 voices seem to be enough.

RAM is several orders of magnitude faster than needed for a DP (in example, being able to dump the ENTIRE bank several times each second).

And if the latency of a thumb is a concern, then implement it as Kontakt: preload the first 60KB (or so) of each sample in RAM (1GB of RAM is not expensive and that is plenty of preload room... for lots of layers).

Maybe for a 80GB sample size a thumb drive would not be enough... but for 'only' 8GB? Numbers say it would work.

Regards!
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow.

The interface (USB 2.0, SD) is slow, but the internal Flash is pretty fast, plenty fast to directly support sample playback without RAM buffering. I would guess that most DPs function this way nowadays.

The same flash is used in thumb and SSD drives, they just put more of it in parallel to increase SSD I/O speed. SSDs generally have a more complex wear-leveling controller as well, but wear-leveling isn't really necessary for DP sample playback, as only writes cause Flash wear.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 09:03 PM

They will never do this.
This would mean they must compete with computer based pianos in cost and quality.

Within the next years these costs and the boot times will decrease. Faster and larger SSD's are expected. They will loose this battle within 10 or 20 years. So they have to concentrate to products that satisfies the today's and tommorow's needs of the average customer that typically doesnt want to fiddle around with computers and software.

I think they do not want to shoot all their powder, because they must have something to offer for next NAMM ;-)
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 09:19 PM

I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 11:09 PM

"...I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare..."

We all wonder, Hideki. I'm very interested to see, hear, and try the MP10--- and can't offer any opinion before I do.

For a company with no marketing to speak of, this is quite a buzz. I might be buzzing more myself, if I weren't breaking my brains on 1200 pages of Cubase manual and another 1000 of Sibelius. (And double-acrostics sets from Tascam, and Kawai, and E-Mu; 3-D Scrabble, and in Japanese. But, no whining--- I did it to myself).

Sure, I want the whole package--- sounds, MIDI controller, sequencer, processing, all onboard--- but the action is the part no one has really nailed yet. I just wonder if they've been brilliant enough to configure the new DPs to accept an aftermarket add-on ROM upgrade... just possibly, partnering with a company that specializes in those big sample sets.

I am a little curious why the MP10's weight would be such a deal-breaking hot button issue. I was able to handle the MP8ii on my own, with not much back left to put into it. There are lightweight two-wheeled hand trucks. Two minutes of help per gig, where there are stairs. One of those beer-cooler type cases--- decent protection with not much weight.

My tech used to be a piano mover (real pianos) before he got his training. He told me that guys who think it's all about muscle are the ones that get hurt. Leverage, balance, packing safely, handling the mass right, patience, and a fairly small amount of specialized gear.

Posted By: Rhodie73

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.



I'm in the same boat. However, I worry about the looping issues that might be noticeable in the Acoustic Piano sounds. I have a Roland RD700GXF and have been totally spoiled by the SN piano sounds. Believe it or not I'm really only interested in the new MP's for their take on classic Rhodes sounds. I do like the "new" character of Kawai's latest technology, however I'm unsure how things like decay in the AP sounds will do. I agree that The Yamaha CP1's EPs are great, but I can't stand the user interface. Roland's UI is just so much more intuitive and enjoyable to customize sounds with. Once again the problem with this whole Kawai situation is availability to test out. I for certain could not or will not buy an instrument without playing it first.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 11:42 PM

My complaint with most DPs have been the actions. I need something more similar to a graded acoustic grand action for extensive evening and nighttime practicing. The actions on digital pianos like the CP1 and V are a little too easy on the fingers. I'm waiting for the Shigeru SK3 to arrive and want a digital piano that can allow me to practice at night without sacrificing too much in the way of a real grand action. The sound is important to me, but living with CP1 has made me realize that I need an action closer to a grand more than I need the cutting edge in digital piano sound.

I'm surprised you found the CP1 interface frustrating. It is pretty simple compared to the CP5 and very limited given the limited nature of the CP1.

Edit: I was just playing the EP sounds on my CP1 and i don't think I want to give those up either.

Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.



I'm in the same boat. However, I worry about the looping issues that might be noticeable in the Acoustic Piano sounds. I have a Roland RD700GXF and have been totally spoiled by the SN piano sounds. Believe it or not I'm really only interested in the new MP's for their take on classic Rhodes sounds. I do like the "new" character of Kawai's latest technology, however I'm unsure how things like decay in the AP sounds will do. I agree that The Yamaha CP1's EPs are great, but I can't stand the user interface. Roland's UI is just so much more intuitive and enjoyable to customize sounds with. Once again the problem with this whole Kawai situation is availability to test out. I for certain could not or will not buy an instrument without playing it first.

Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/20/10 11:48 PM

I have a feeling they are going to fall a little short of the CP1 on the EP sounds, but will provide and action closer to a grand. I believe the Rolands and Yamahas only use weighted actions but not graded.

I figured I should switch to the MP10 to make my night time practicing more consistent with my practice time on the SK3.


Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
"...I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare..."

We all wonder, Hideki. I'm very interested to see, hear, and try the MP10--- and can't offer any opinion before I do.

For a company with no marketing to speak of, this is quite a buzz. I might be buzzing more myself, if I weren't breaking my brains on 1200 pages of Cubase manual and another 1000 of Sibelius. (And double-acrostics sets from Tascam, and Kawai, and E-Mu; 3-D Scrabble, and in Japanese. But, no whining--- I did it to myself).

Sure, I want the whole package--- sounds, MIDI controller, sequencer, processing, all onboard--- but the action is the part no one has really nailed yet. I just wonder if they've been brilliant enough to configure the new DPs to accept an aftermarket add-on ROM upgrade... just possibly, partnering with a company that specializes in those big sample sets.

I am a little curious why the MP10's weight would be such a deal-breaking hot button issue. I was able to handle the MP8ii on my own, with not much back left to put into it. There are lightweight two-wheeled hand trucks. Two minutes of help per gig, where there are stairs. One of those beer-cooler type cases--- decent protection with not much weight.

My tech used to be a piano mover (real pianos) before he got his training. He told me that guys who think it's all about muscle are the ones that get hurt. Leverage, balance, packing safely, handling the mass right, patience, and a fairly small amount of specialized gear.

Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:06 AM

So...is the MP6 in stores yet in the US?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:56 AM

hpeterh,

Originally Posted by hpeterh
It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.


No, I'm afraid you are incorrect. Having measured three different generations of Kawai wooden-key action: 'AWA Grand', 'AWA Grand Pro', and 'RM3 Grand', I can confidently state that for white keys, the distance from the balance pin to the front of the key has remained unchanged: 188 mm.

Originally Posted by hpeterh
They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos.


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted by hpeterh
So they made the white keys shorter...


Again, not true (see above) - the length of the white key remains unchanged at 325 mm

Originally Posted by hpeterh
...and the black keys got a shifted pivot.


Assuming you are referring to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action, you are indeed correct - the balance pin (pivot point) of the black keys has been moved approximately 18 mm further back. This helps the weighting and pivot angle of the black keys to be an even closer representation of that of an acoustic piano.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by hpeterh
For the white keys they have definitely the shortest keys ;-)


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted by hpeterh
A layman will have a hard time to see wether the left or the right pivot belongs to the white key. It is so unclear.


The front balance pin (the right pin in the picture you linked to) is for the white keys, the back balance pin (the left pin in the picture you linked to) is for the black keys - just like an acoustic piano.

Indeed, the image that you linked to is actually a shot of the 'RM3 Grand' action model display produced for Kawai dealers to help explain the various features of the action to store visitors. When seen first hand, I believe it should be clear which balance pins are used for the black and white keys.

[Linked Image]

And if you look a little more closely at the attached explanation board, you will see an image of an acoustic piano action that further reinforces the 'RM3 Grand' balance pin placement.

[Linked Image]

My apologies for this rather lengthy post, however I believe it is important that individuals who write false information as fact are promptly corrected.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 02:22 AM

Hideki / Jeff,

I have still yet to play the CP1 (Yamaha's latest stage pianos are unfortunately not available in any of the music stores here in Hamamatsu), however I have used a number of virtual instruments and own a Nord Electro and can tell you that the MP10's EPs sound pretty bloody good.

The amp sims definitely add an extra layer of realism to the sound too - it's not just a case of a bit more treble here or a tad more bass there, it give the sounds a completely different character.

I'm a 60's/70's soul/funk nut, so like to think I know a thing or two about classic EP sounds. I was actually preparing myself to be disappointed by the MP10's new EPs, given the amount of work that went into perfecting the acoustic piano sounds, however when I started playing the prototypes for myself I was really blown away - I honestly couldn't believe I was playing a Kawai!

I have some really great audio demos here which should reinforce be available from the Kawai Europe website once their MP10 page goes live - I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 02:52 AM

Thanks for the input. The EPs are my only area of concern as I obviously love the Shigeru Kawai sound and would love to have a digital Shigeru EX to match my SK3.

How would you compare the EPs to your Nord or something like the Korg SV1?

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hideki / Jeff,

I have still yet to play the CP1 (Yamaha's latest stage pianos are unfortunately not available in any of the music stores here in Hamamatsu), however I have used a number of virtual instruments and own a Nord Electro and can tell you that the MP10's EPs sound pretty bloody good.

The amp sims definitely add an extra layer of realism to the sound too - it's not just a case of a bit more treble here or a tad more bass there, it give the sounds a completely different character.

I'm a 60's/70's soul/funk nut, so like to think I know a thing or two about classic EP sounds. I was actually preparing myself to be disappointed by the MP10's new EPs, given the amount of work that went into perfecting the acoustic piano sounds, however when I started playing the prototypes for myself I was really blown away - I honestly couldn't believe I was playing a Kawai!

I have some really great audio demos here which should reinforce be available from the Kawai Europe website once their MP10 page goes live - I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:04 AM

Hideki,

I'm afraid I haven't tried the SV-1 (similar story as with the Yamaha CP1 - the market for stage pianos in Japan is tiny...you just don't find them in stores), however the demo MP3s I have heard (one from a recent vintage EP round-up in a German magazine) do sound absolutely terrific. I'd say the MP10's EPs can definitely hold-up to the best of what I have heard from the SV-1.

As for my Nord, well it's the older Electro 2, so is getting a little old now. I still love the board, however the decay of the EPs in the treble do tend to fall away pretty quickly - I notice that a lot more these days.

I can remember when I was working on the MP10 owner's manual, I'd return home to play on my Nord and would feel rather disappointed that I couldn't tweak the sounds just a little more (something that is considerably improved in the Electro 3, I gather). Regardless, there's no way I could cycle to band practises with an MP10 strapped to my back, so will continue to use the Electro 2 for a while longer (perhaps until I can upgrade to the Electro 3...).

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 05:47 AM

Test time!

Here's a side view made from the pictures that Mucci posted of the RM3, PHA III, and real grand actions. I scaled each image so that there is an identical distance from the front of the key to the fallboard. I then traced the motion that the white key surface would sweep through as the key is depressed.

Here they are in no particular order:
[Linked Image]

For what it's worth, there is a slight (less than 1 degree) difference in the angle of the key top at rest. Here are the three 'key up' lines superimposed:
[Linked Image]

There's very little difference between these actions, despite the different pivot points. Based on this, I think the pivot point for white keys is much less significant than other factors. Maybe I'll do the same for black keys.

Feel free to guess. 1 in 6 is a winner.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
My complaint with most DPs have been the actions. I need something more similar to a graded acoustic grand action for extensive evening and nighttime practicing. The actions on digital pianos like the CP1 and V are a little too easy on the fingers. I'm waiting for the Shigeru SK3 to arrive and want a digital piano that can allow me to practice at night without sacrificing too much in the way of a real grand action. The sound is important to me, but living with CP1 has made me realize that I need an action closer to a grand more than I need the cutting edge in digital piano sound.

It sounds like what you are looking for is a Yamaha Avantgrand...If you can afford a Steinway or Shigeru then affording an Avantgrand shouldn't be the issue and you will then have two genuine grand piano keybaords to play and practice on. Alternatively you could buy a Kawai ATX hybrid pianos which would provide you with three instruments: your Shigeru grand, a high rated acoustic upright and a state of art digital practice piano with a genuine Kawai action.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:27 AM

AldoEsplay, interesting test, however is the Roland action perfectly parallel with the camera in the image posted? It looks like it's already a few degrees off-centre (we can see the sides/backs of the metal construction below the key, for example).

Nice idea though - 10 out of 10 for effort. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 08:53 AM

James, although you're a Kawai employee I value your input (as largely non-biased). Considering that you are really so enthusiastic about the EP's on the MP10 and on the MP10 as a whole, you made me doubt again. Should I throw away my weight concerns and see what it has to offer...? So, some more questions.

Can these EP programs that you are so happy with also be found on the MP6 ? Perhaps in less tweakable form, but with the same basic material ?

Can you use the MP10 as a master controller (using zones and layers for external instruments) in the same flexible way as the MP6, or is it really another approach and more a basic stage piano instead of controller ?

Are both instruments firmware upgradable and do you think that controlling the drawbars by an external MIDI box will be possible in a future release for the MP6 ? You don't have to promise , but just tell us if this is likely to happen or perhaps not possible at all.

Thanks

J
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
hpeterh,

Originally Posted by hpeterh
It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.


No, I'm afraid you are incorrect. Having measured three different generations of Kawai wooden-key action: 'AWA Grand', 'AWA Grand Pro', and 'RM3 Grand', I can confidently state that for white keys, the distance from the balance pin to the front of the key has remained unchanged: 188 mm.

Originally Posted by hpeterh
They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos.


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted by hpeterh
So they made the white keys shorter...


Again, not true (see above) - the length of the white key remains unchanged at 325 mm

Originally Posted by hpeterh
...and the black keys got a shifted pivot.


Assuming you are referring to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action, you are indeed correct - the balance pin (pivot point) of the black keys has been moved approximately 18 mm further back. This helps the weighting and pivot angle of the black keys to be an even closer representation of that of an acoustic piano.

[Linked Image]


OK, James thank you.
Obviously, as I see now, the length of the white surface was increased. So it looks shorter, but it is not shorter.
Obviously I was in error about that, I am sorry, but at the same time I am glad to learn this.
So most probably the RM3 should be really improved in all aspects and I am glad to hear that.

I am just a gearhead and rely much on facts. What they always say - go and try it - is impossible to do for an unexperienced beginner. There are always facts that a beginner will not see or feel or know and so I rely much onto measurable facts.

If I dont have the skills to set my fingers between the black keys and play there, then I cannot try this in a reasonable way.

As soon as I have to pay a lot of money, my brain will make the decision and not my feel. (I am also sure, if somebody adresses my feel and at the same time wants to sell something, then he will fool me) So I want to know facts.

If for example, somebody has the habit to play preferrably at a 50% depth into the keys, then I think he will need much more force on any digital than on a real grand.

On the digital he will have a leverarm ratio of 1:2 and on a real grand in this case he will have about 2:3 lever arm translation.

I think this is more or less the case for all digitals, and I still hold it for true that Kawai keys have shorter lever arms for the white keys than Yamaha GH(3) keys, but after the RM3 appeared, this was obviously improved for the black keys, so Kawai probably would win in this case.

However what all manufacturers claim: "This is an accurrate modelled action that behaves like a grand piano action", this claim is simply untrue, because this only is true if the keys are played at the front. If the keys are pressed at the end, the double force would be required on any digital.

This is a result of simple geometric and physical laws and no manufacturer can violate these laws.

Peter

Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by theJourney

The RM3 on the CA63 doesn't even implement it.
Two is one fewer sensor than three.
Not being an implemented feature and having fewer sensors is pretty good proof that the feature is not implemented and that there are fewer sensors.


Again, you're only looking at the design and not how the actions feels.

No. I would argue that how an action feels is subordinate in importance to how it performs. We don't play just for the sensual aspect of fingers on keys but rather for the ability to articulate i.e. what sounds our physical motions on the keyboard can produce (and the success that our sounds have in eliciting an appropriate emotional response in our listener.)

The post I responded to (and the dialog to which you have inserted yourself between) was from a poster that asserted that the RM3 has characteristics that are a must have for a classical pianist. Yet, we have learned that the letoff simulation and double escapement simulation -- both key aspects of feel and performance of an acoustic grand piano action demanded by the classical literature -- are not even implemented on the RM3! Posters report rather consistently that the characteristic resistance is missing from the RM3 keyboard as most commonly implemented (e.g. on the CA63) and that they are not able to repeat keys as rapidly as on competing digital keyboards containing a third sensor. For these "key" aspects, both the feel and performance of the RM3 keyboard on the CA63 has been reported to be objectively inferior by those experienced classical pianists when comparing the actions in side by side auditions to competing dp actions and to acoustic grand piano actions.
Originally Posted by mucci

Originally Posted by theJourney

And your individual taste has you jury rigging a netbook loaded with Pianoteq to get an acceptable tone. Do you see the hypocrisy? See the DPMSD thread for more details on the objective proof the less organic sounding decay for example.


You take whatever you like to get proof of your biased opinion, eh? I would also use a similar combination with both Roland and Yamaha DPs. I even like the sound of Kawai DPs better than Roland SN, but that's personal taste. I stated that several times, but you seem to ignore this (deliberately?).

Well, if you don't remember your posts about being 100% happy with the Kawai sound signature but disappointed in its static, short, unrealistic decay and don't believe yourself, simply examine the many posts of those who are very Kawai loyal but still complain about the sound. Or those that want Kawai to build a sound-less action. Or that won't buy a Kawai without connectivity to ignore its onboard sound to be replaced by a software solution. Or those that wish Kawai had a similarly realistic sound engine to Roland's Supernatural. There are a lot of those posts here. Ignoring them would be represenative of a close-minded bias.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
AldoEsplay, interesting test, however is the Roland action perfectly parallel with the camera in the image posted?


Not perfectly. I adjusted as much as possible for perspective. Obviously not as accurate as a good CAD drawing or actual measurements.

Care to wager which is which?

Regards,
Aldo
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 12:32 PM

I auditioned the Avantgrand and almost bit. I thought it was nice piece with a perfect action for practicing, but it is not portable at all. I need my digital to be portable because I occasionally work with a singer. Furthermore, unless I couldn't have an acoustic, I would never spend that much on a digital piano. Some come close in sound but simply can't compare to practicing and playing on an acoustic grand.

I would certainly love to have the Avantgrand as a practice instrument at night, but if I can find something more portable with a great action, that would be ideal. If my CP1 had a heavier graded action it would be perfect. I haven't had good experiences with my Rolands, but I'm going to give the NX a look as I haven't felt the new action.

Originally Posted by theJourney
It sounds like what you are looking for is a Yamaha Avantgrand...If you can afford a Steinway or Shigeru then affording an Avantgrand shouldn't be the issue and you will then have two genuine grand piano keybaords to play and practice on. Alternatively you could buy a Kawai ATX hybrid pianos which would provide you with three instruments: your Shigeru grand, a high rated acoustic upright and a state of art digital practice piano with a genuine Kawai action.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 12:54 PM

Regarding classical pianists and their digital preferences... although it is great that classical piece can be played on a digital piano, I doubt any classical pianist would want to rely on digital piano as their sole instrument for practice or performance. Pianos like the Avantgrand might be suitable for practice because of the keyboard, but most stage pianos like the CP1 or V Piano mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively. Furthermore, even though digital pianos produce really good sound they don't compare to a proper acoustic grand in the settings in which classical music is most likely performed.

I'm hoping the MP10 has really good sound with an excellent action that will allow me to use it for practicing at night without feeling vastly different from the MKIII action on the Shigeru.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:02 PM

Here's my stab at it...

A: Roland PHA
B: Kawai RM3
C: Real Grand

Steve
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:10 PM

theJourney, you are definitely only counting those posts that strengthen your point of view and ignore all other posts. That's not helpful at all, and it certainly does not reflect the general notion of people (including professional pianists) on this board.
Where do people state that RM3 does not allow rapid repetition, especially compared to people that state that there is no repetition problem?
Where do people state that they definitely miss the escapement resistance of CA63 RM3 keyboard (it's there on CA93 if you really want it)?
So where does anyone state that because of this the RM3 keyboard is "objectively inferior" to the other keyboard actions?
Where do I state that the Kawai sound is inferior to other DP sounds?
Where do I ignore posts that complain about Kawai sound and action?

I always tell people to try the DP models they are interested in to then decide which one to buy, and that's then absolutely fine. You are, for whatever reason (I had to point this out several times) bashing Kawai DPs. I don't get it. Whether it's marketing, crippled cheaper models, communication, overall market presence, local store support, European website, firmware support, overall build quality, sound, useless wood design just for marketing, model strategy, ludicrous videos (only in German), faulty keyboards, ... and comments with lots of sarcasm. You could get the impression that Kawai is the worst ever brand (maybe except for James). Do you really believe what you post?
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Here's my stab at it...

A: Roland PHA
B: Kawai RM3
C: Real Grand

Steve


Thanks, interesting. But: How could you measure it that exactly? Someone should measure this with actually getting the action models to see if this is right. On the other side: Does this really matter? I can't tell.
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 01:30 PM

Happens I had lunch with my local Kawai dealer yesterday, and got to play a truly yummy SK3 with Pyramid Mahogany veneer, that they had on the floor. If I had it to do over... however, the new RX was VERY very nice, too; I was a little surprised to look inside the case and see that it was but a lowly RX-1.

I would imagine that to play like an MIII action you would have to be an MIII action. If the MP10 can come anywhere close, they're going to scare the life out of the Big Boys.

We'll see. Santa is going to break his back getting all those keyboards down the chimney this year.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Thanks, interesting. But: How could you measure it that exactly? Someone should measure this with actually getting the action models to see if this is right. On the other side: Does this really matter? I can't tell.


Had to guess a little on measurements. They are limited by the quality of the pictures as well as the assumptions I had to make about how the keys move around they're pivot points.

The main point is that even though the mechanisms are quite different with lever lengths, pivot points, and other stuff, the actual motion of the keys is pretty similar. The other point is that the pictures tell you very little about the differences in the actual motion. It's kind of like watching sausage being made versus eating it.

In the end, it's more fun and games than science.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
we have learned that the letoff simulation and double escapement simulation -- both key aspects of feel and performance of an acoustic grand piano action demanded by the classical literature

Demanded by the classical literature? So you can't play Chopin on an upright? (Tell that to all the music students practicing in the rehearsal rooms at the universities...)

If I could find a stage piano that felt and sounded as good as a quality upright, I'd be thrilled. The features you're demanding are nice extras, but hardly essential to a quality experience.

It's kind of like power seats in a car. They're nice to have. They would make a Toyota Corolla just a little more like a Lexus. But it's hardly the most important difference between a Corolla and a top of the line Lexus, and if the power seats in the Lexus broke, the Lexus without power seats would still drive more like a Lexus than would the Corolla with power seats.

Originally Posted by theJourney
not able to repeat keys as rapidly as on competing digital keyboards containing a third sensor.

Even if that's true, for an individual purchaser, it may only be important that a key be able to repeat as quickly as he needs it to repeat.

I think that there is a forest-for-the-trees problem here. You have to consider the feel of the action as a whole. There are too many variables, too many aspects of design that simply don't reduce to checkmarks in a marketing grid.

It's easy to get hung up on these things, because the manufacturers are marketing them as important features. It's their job to make you think that whatever features they implemented are the features you most need. But it's not necessarily true. You need to actually play the things.

It's similar to what I said on the low end, about the Casio PX-130 and the Yamaha P-95. On paper, the Casio looks much better. 4-layer sampling instead of one, the tri-sensor feature, pedal-down string resonance. Looking at a checklist, it's clear which one to buy. But in reality, to me, the P-95 played much more like a real piano, the action and velocity response felt more natural... and the only way to know is to play them, that's the only real test. You may wish that you could determine what's best by looking at technical documents, but unfortunately, a musical instrument simply doesn't reduce to a feature list.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 02:46 PM

anotherscott: Amen!
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
AldoEsplay, interesting test, however is the Roland action perfectly parallel with the camera in the image posted? It looks like it's already a few degrees off-centre (we can see the sides/backs of the metal construction below the key, for example).

Nice idea though - 10 out of 10 for effort. wink

Cheers,
James
x

Nice catch. I immediately began to think of measurement tolerance and error, and propagation of error (a small error in measurement can be amplified if you take a near 0 angular measurement and apply a trig function to determine, for example, location of a pivot point).

You point out a more obvious flaw in the mis-measurement by the video device in the variation among video devices in aspect of the shot.

Weird that all us math geeks love music.
Posted By: egallego

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:16 PM

Well I didn't mean to generate such amount of discussion here about actions here, so I'll open a new thread, my point was that given the nature of Kawai's action, making a lighter Scene Piano is very difficult. BTW, I think the Roland pics are of a PHAII action.

Just a note: I'm really having a lot trouble choosing between Roland and Kawai! They are quite different but I can't tell which action I prefer, I guess I'll need to perform more testing smile

Of course both are really good but you cannot compare them to a good acoustic, is like the difference from a turtle plastic toy to a real living turtle, but unfortunately for some of us a DP is the only choice for now. frown IMHO a classical pianist should always perform on an acoustic, no discussion about that.

I tend to play better with the Roland, but the Kawai action IMVHO seems more similar to an acoustic one. I'm just guessing that having "real" wooden keys will mean you can "feel" the
key's weight better, so I jumped to the conclusion that it is mandatory to use a long-key, hammer based mechanism instead of the compact ones, but I'm afraid I cannot really back that with conclusive evidence.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Weird that all us math geeks love music.


Not so weird. Music has a consistent mathematic base. If you take a note, the octave above is exactly twice the frequency, a fifth is 3/2 times the base frequency, and a fourth 4/3. The diatonic scale is not arbitrary at all. Circle of fifths, what about circle of fifths? wink

Of course, a mathematician may lack any musical skill, and a musician may feel aversion to mathematics, but there is a subtle link between the two.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie
but there is a subtle link between the two.


Hehe, a very obvious link! I even think that if you are a mathematics enthusiast, you might at least learn the musical theory much better. But of course it's only a side aspect...
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
Santa is going to break his back getting all those keyboards down the chimney this year.


I hate break it to ya but .... Oh nothing .. whistle
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
Santa is going to break his back getting all those keyboards down the chimney this year.


I hate break it to ya but .... Oh nothing .. whistle


You mean - Santa's not delivering anything to Rimmer because of his bad behaviour during this year! Oh my!
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by mucci


You mean - Santa's not delivering anything to Rimmer because of his bad behaviour during this year! Oh my!


No one drinks all my brandy and gets allowed back in.. grin
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Here's my stab at it...

Thanks Steve. I sent you a PM with the answers.

Aldo
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Regarding classical pianists and their digital preferences... although it is great that classical piece can be played on a digital piano, I doubt any classical pianist would want to rely on digital piano as their sole instrument for practice or performance. Pianos like the Avantgrand might be suitable for practice because of the keyboard, but most stage pianos like the CP1 or V Piano mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively. Furthermore, even though digital pianos produce really good sound they don't compare to a proper acoustic grand in the settings in which classical music is most likely performed.

I'm hoping the MP10 has really good sound with an excellent action that will allow me to use it for practicing at night without feeling vastly different from the MKIII action on the Shigeru.


IMO the RM3 keyboard is in the same class of instruments as the CP1, VPiano and others that "mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively."

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I auditioned the Avantgrand and almost bit. I thought it was nice piece with a perfect action for practicing, but it is not portable at all. I need my digital to be portable because I occasionally work with a singer. Furthermore, unless I couldn't have an acoustic, I would never spend that much on a digital piano. Some come close in sound but simply can't compare to practicing and playing on an acoustic grand.

I would certainly love to have the Avantgrand as a practice instrument at night, but if I can find something more portable with a great action, that would be ideal. If my CP1 had a heavier graded action it would be perfect. I haven't had good experiences with my Rolands, but I'm going to give the NX a look as I haven't felt the new action.


Well, you don't have to wait for the MP10 to try out the RM3 action (assuming you can find a store within a day's travel that stocks the CA93/CA63). You will find that the RM3 action is not to the SK3 what the Avantgrand action is to the C3. Not by a long shot. If that is what you are really looking for, it is going to be a long wait IMO. Ideally, I would play the MP10, MP6, RD700NX and FP7F all side by side next to your CP1. You might decide that there is little reason to switch.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by egallego
Well I didn't mean to generate such amount of discussion here about actions here, so I'll open a new thread, my point was that given the nature of Kawai's action, making a lighter Scene Piano is very difficult. BTW, I think the Roland pics are of a PHAII action.

Just a note: I'm really having a lot trouble choosing between Roland and Kawai! They are quite different but I can't tell which action I prefer, I guess I'll need to perform more testing smile

Of course both are really good but you cannot compare them to a good acoustic, is like the difference from a turtle plastic toy to a real living turtle, but unfortunately for some of us a DP is the only choice for now. frown IMHO a classical pianist should always perform on an acoustic, no discussion about that.

I tend to play better with the Roland, but the Kawai action IMVHO seems more similar to an acoustic one. I'm just guessing that having "real" wooden keys will mean you can "feel" the
key's weight better, so I jumped to the conclusion that it is mandatory to use a long-key, hammer based mechanism instead of the compact ones, but I'm afraid I cannot really back that with conclusive evidence.


We seem to be having the same shopping experience...

It is difficult to come to a conclusion partly because the more one plays them the more one realizes that the distance between what the digital can do and what an acoustic can do is still so great. Each manufacturer has a plastic turtle with different relative advantages and disadvantages, but they remain plastic turtles.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Each manufacturer has a plastic turtle with different relative advantages and disadvantages, but they remain plastic turtles.


I personally wouldn't call them plastic turtles (since they are not that far away from a real grand action) but basically you're absolutely right.

That said, I need a DP at home for quiet practice... No other way possible.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 05:19 PM

The problem with my CP is that the action is too light and not graded. My past Roland actions (700SX and Fantom G8)just didn't feel right to me and were also too light. On top of that I hated the piano sounds on my Rolands. I'm hoping that the RM3 proves to be a slightly heavier graded action that will give my fingers a little more of a workout. I know it won't compare to the amazing MKIII action but I'm hoping for something a little more similar to an acoustic grand action.

I will not be practicing on my digital exclusively, but I do practice enough at night that I do want something more consistent with my acoustic action.

I have no interest in the FP series or MP6, but I'm waiting for GC to open so I can go check out the NX.
Originally Posted by theJourney


IMO the RM3 keyboard is in the same class of instruments as the CP1, VPiano and others that "mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively."

Well, you don't have to wait for the MP10 to try out the RM3 action (assuming you can find a store within a day's travel that stocks the CA93/CA63). You will find that the RM3 action is not to the SK3 what the Avantgrand action is to the C3. Not by a long shot. If that is what you are really looking for, it is going to be a long wait IMO. Ideally, I would play the MP10, MP6, RD700NX and FP7F all side by side next to your CP1. You might decide that there is little reason to switch.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by theJourney
Each manufacturer has a plastic turtle with different relative advantages and disadvantages, but they remain plastic turtles.


I personally wouldn't call them plastic turtles (since they are not that far away from a real grand action) but basically you're absolutely right.

That said, I need a DP at home for quiet practice... No other way possible.


Are you sure?
I know of few pianists who would turn down an incredible gift such as this one:
http://www.kawai.de/k5atx_en.htm
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:29 PM

...or this one:
http://www.kawai.de/rx2atx_de.htm
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
The problem with my CP is that the action is too light and not graded. My past Roland actions (700SX and Fantom G8)just didn't feel right to me and were also too light. On top of that I hated the piano sounds on my Rolands. I'm hoping that the RM3 proves to be a slightly heavier graded action that will give my fingers a little more of a workout. I know it won't compare to the amazing MKIII action but I'm hoping for something a little more similar to an acoustic grand action.

I will not be practicing on my digital exclusively, but I do practice enough at night that I do want something more consistent with my acoustic action.

I have no interest in the FP series or MP6, but I'm waiting for GC to open so I can go check out the NX.
Originally Posted by theJourney


IMO the RM3 keyboard is in the same class of instruments as the CP1, VPiano and others that "mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively."

Well, you don't have to wait for the MP10 to try out the RM3 action (assuming you can find a store within a day's travel that stocks the CA93/CA63). You will find that the RM3 action is not to the SK3 what the Avantgrand action is to the C3. Not by a long shot. If that is what you are really looking for, it is going to be a long wait IMO. Ideally, I would play the MP10, MP6, RD700NX and FP7F all side by side next to your CP1. You might decide that there is little reason to switch.


Will be very interesting to hear how you find the RD700NX stacks up against the MP10. Please give us the full report!
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Will be very interesting to hear how you find the RD700NX stacks up against the MP10. Please give us the full report!


I'm totally confused right now because I really love the EP section on the CP1. I'm beginning to think the CP1 was designed around the EPs rather than the APs, especially given the extra levels of signal processing in that section. In any case I don't think I can give those up.

I'm definitely going to check out both the NX and MP10. If I buy one, it will probably be based on the action. The ideal alternative would be to get a Kawai silent piano for night practice and keep my CP1 for my electric moments. Unfortunately splurging on the SK3 has me thinking a little more practically on the digital end.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Originally Posted by mucci

That said, I need a DP at home for quiet practice... No other way possible.


Are you sure?
I know of few pianists who would turn down an incredible gift such as this one:
http://www.kawai.de/k5atx_en.htm


I need to add: For the money I can spend. I had a fix limit of 2000 Euro (which drove me at first towards the CLP340 as this one was 1999 Euro wink ), and I was slightly over budget with the CA63, so, no way for the very nice but expensive silent alternatives.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I'm beginning to think the CP1 was designed around the EPs rather than the APs

I think that's true. The APs in the latest CP series are not top-of-the-line Yamaha sample sets (the best Yamaha I've tested and heard is AvantGrand - no stretching but fairly short loop samples).
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney

IMO the RM3 keyboard is in the same class of instruments as the CP1, VPiano and others that "mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively."


I dont think so. CP1 and PHAIII are not comparable. CP1 is nongraded and PHAIII has double escapement and a longer lever translation. (But still shorter than a Grand)

This is a Schimmel upright action that has a very high reputation:

[Linked Image]

The Kawai RM3 is clearly in the class of upright actions.
That however, is true more or less for all digitals.
These actions of course are also heavier at the bass side. Some of them even have double escapement, but only top models.
Good uprights have a lighter touch to compensate the disadvantage of the shorter lever. Unfortunately digitals dont emulate this but try to be as heavy as a grandpiano. This catapults some of them into the class of oldfashioned anno 1900 uprights. Some people want this for fingertraining.

The Schimmel uprights have a real, measured upweight of 40-50 g /inclusive/ friction. (modern high end Schimmels use magnets for friction reduction)
The RM3 is approx 60g /exclusive/ friction.
(The weights that Kawai specifies for their digitals are theoretic values without friction, not measured values)
My AWA Grand pro was up to 80g measured /inklusive/ friction.
That was before I opened and re-adjusted it.

If somebody says the RM3 plays like a Kawai RX then he is probably incompetent. What do they smoke at Kawai? It doesnt even play like a very good upright. That of course doesnt mean that it is a bad action.

A grandpiano action has a much longer lever translation like this or even more.
[Linked Image]

So why do all vendors market their digitals as a grandpiano surrogate? Because they think their customers are totally unknowing and idiots, and unfortunately, if you go into a piano store and listen the conversations between buyers and sellers, I must say, yes, most of them are.

There is another difference between serious acoustics and digitals and this is probably the most important:

Numeric data about keyboard and hammer mechanics geometry and -weights is not kept secret. Some times it is published and sometimes it is available on request. This is important data that characterizes the action to a professional dealer or tech or player.
For digitals this data is kept confidential, because diskussion about these parameters is unwanted.

Peter
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/21/10 11:05 PM

Good morning JFP,

Quote
James, although you're a Kawai employee I value your input (as largely non-biased).


Thank you.

Quote
Should I throw away my weight concerns and see what it has to offer...?


I believe you should purchase the instrument that brings you the most musical enjoyment, then worry about the weight issue.

Quote
Can these EP programs that you are so happy with also be found on the MP6 ?


The MP6 features some of the MP10's EPs sounds but in a condensed form (PHI vs UPHI).

Quote
Perhaps in less tweakable form, but with the same basic material ?


Correct, the MP6's sounds are less tweakable. Some of the basic sounds in the two models are indeed from the same sampling source, however as suggested above, the MP10 has much larger sample sets.

Quote
Can you use the MP10 as a master controller (using zones and layers for external instruments) in the same flexible way as the MP6, or is it really another approach and more a basic stage piano instead of controller ?


The MP10 can be used as a master controller, however the board's MIDI section can only be used to control one external instrument (i.e. one MIDI channel) at a time.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the MP10 concept is dramatically different to all other MPs - the 'four assignable zones' approach has been replaced by 'four fixed sections' (PIANO, E.PIANO, SUB, MIDI). While you can of course layer two or more sections together, it is not possible to layer two sounds from the same section, or freely assign sounds from one section to another.

Quote
Are both instruments firmware upgradable...


Yes, as with the CA93/CA63, software updates can be loaded via USB memory.

Quote
do you think that controlling the drawbars by an external MIDI box will be possible in a future release for the MP6 ?


Currently the MP6's tonewheel organ sim. doesn't allow individual drawbars to be controlled by MIDI. However, it is theoretically possible for this behaviour to be changed with future software updates. I obviously cannot promise anything, however if there is strong demand from MP6 owners for such a feature, we would obviously have to listen to their requests and consider implementing the functionality. But as I say, no promises. wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Well, you don't have to wait for the MP10 to try out the RM3 action (assuming you can find a store within a day's travel that stocks the CA93/CA63).


I noticed the MP10 seems to have the RM3 with Let-off like the CA 93. The CA 63 does not have the Let-off feature. I'm hoping to find a CA93 to try the keyboard. I'm assuming the MP10 will feel and perform exactly the same.

Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Quote
Should I throw away my weight concerns and see what it has to offer...?


I believe you should purchase the instrument that brings you the most musical enjoyment, then worry about the weight issue.


I wish that would work for me, but with a back screwed from a lifetime of hauling gear, I have to think practically.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Can these EP programs that you are so happy with also be found on the MP6 ?


The MP6 features some of the MP10's EPs sounds but in a condensed form (PHI vs UPHI).


This is where it gets tricky. You can squeeze the life out of something by condensing it, or you can make it almost indistinguishable from the original. We have no idea where the MP6 falls on this spectrum.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quote
Perhaps in less tweakable form, but with the same basic material ?


Correct, the MP6's sounds are less tweakable. Some of the basic sounds in the two models are indeed from the same sampling source, however as suggested above, the MP10 has much larger sample sets.


I don't mind the loss of "tweakability" providing the MP6 has the most usable selection of the MP10's AP/EP samples.

The problem, as always, is that all the discussions about action/sounds of these two DPs are theoretical, since 9 out of 10 of us will probably not be able to find one to test. So I come back to something that I'm surprised Kawai has not implemented to counteract their lack of showrooms: why not have a traveling roadshow that could call at major cities on each continent to allow players to test the wares? Publicize on the web and through online sellers. A truck, a few factory samples, a driver and a demonstrator and (to use a British expression) Bob's your uncle!
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't mind the loss of "tweakability" providing the MP6 has the most usable selection of the MP10's AP/EP samples.



The APs on the CP1 and CP5 are the same and go through the same signal processing. The CP1 and CP5 are very different when it comes to signal processing on the EP side, producing a much superior set of EPs on the CP1.

I think the amp modeling and tweakability of the MP10 might end up producing a similar type of difference between the MP10 and MP6. I hope they make the MP10s EP section worth the price of admission.

Of course that is just me guessing. Maybe a more informed source can chime in.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
So I come back to something that I'm surprised Kawai has not implemented to counteract their lack of showrooms: why not have a traveling roadshow that could call at major cities on each continent to allow players to test the wares? Publicize on the web and through online sellers. A truck, a few factory samples, a driver and a demonstrator and (to use a British expression) Bob's your uncle!

(my apologies to voxpops, Kawai James, and Neil D.)

It's Love, Brother Love say Brother Love's traveling Kawai DP show
Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies and everyone goes
'Cause everyone knows 'bout Brother Love's show
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
...You are, for whatever reason (I had to point this out several times) bashing Kawai DPs. I don't get it. Whether it's marketing, crippled cheaper models, communication, overall market presence, local store support, European website, firmware support, overall build quality, sound, useless wood design just for marketing, model strategy, ludicrous videos (only in German), faulty keyboards, ... and comments with lots of sarcasm. You could get the impression that Kawai is the worst ever brand (maybe except for James). Do you really believe what you post?


Wow that is quite a list you have there. The fact that one manufacturer has a list that long and still is in business must speak volumes about their actual product quality and/or the brand loyalty of their existing customers...

I wouldn't consider calling putting my finger on the sore spots Kawai bashing....It is rather something more akin to "tough love".

After all, I have personally spent ten times more on Kawai musical instruments during the past decade than on any other brand. This despite the valid and inexcusable points which many or even most of us are repeatedly faced with, including having to jump through hoops and spend lots of personal time and money just to have the privilege to audition the instruments, let alone the inconvenience of finding a place to buy them...

I definitely believe what I post. The fact that this thread has almost 30000 hits to date indicates that I am not the only one very interested in Kawai's new MP6 and MP10 nor am I alone in wanting them to adapt to succeed.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/22/10 08:51 AM

Haha! This is your personal annoyance list I try to recall, not mine. I certainly identified weak points (and clearly stated them here, with sufficient explanation, e.g. sound issues). You build a big picture out of very little own experience (at least for Kawai DPs), some complaints of Kawai users, and lots of biased assumptions based on specs, and put them into a, well, "tough" language as you stated it.

You often repeated statement that you're playing a Kawai acoustic piano as a proof that you're not generally against Kawai DPs is quite weak in this context.

The point again is: You have to test the DPs you want to buy to make a decision. If you (I mean the DP buyer) are not engaged enough to find a place where you can test Kawai products, well, then that is one lost customer, so what. Kawai is a small company compared to Yamaha and Roland and Casio. Marketing and model presence in stores cost you real money. These figures are fictious, but while Yamaha sells 1.000 DPs, Kawai might sell 100, so if marketing and presenting test models is about the same percentage of the budget for both companies, Kawai can only be present in 1/10 of the stores compared to Yamaha. That's a significant difference. So - it's a pity, but it's a fact.

Well, I'm again in a defending mode for Kawai which I definitely don't want to be since I want to discuss much more important aspects here, but there is something in your posts that keep me writing stuff like this... Guess why (I assume your answer if any will again keep me writing an answer! wink ).
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/23/10 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
The point again is: You have to test the DPs you want to buy to make a decision. If you (I mean the DP buyer) are not engaged enough to find a place where you can test Kawai products, well, then that is one lost customer, so what.


I can't imagine that Kawai would be happy with you being responsible for their marketing...

It is perhaps an attitude of the Deutches Mittelstand that customers are a dime a dozen or even bothersome and that losing one or not gaining one is of no concern -- good riddance! -- however, I certainly don't believe that a company such as Kawai is uninterested in selling their products in the way that a Munich Bretzel baker closing her doors a half hour early on Saturday afternoon despite the waiting line at her door is.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/23/10 08:56 PM

theJourney, I won't comment on this since you just take one sentence out of the context, misinterpret it and making fun of it... I would have welcomed it if you could reply to my entire post.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/23/10 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
The point again is: You have to test the DPs you want to buy to make a decision. If you (I mean the DP buyer) are not engaged enough to find a place where you can test Kawai products, well, then that is one lost customer, so what. Kawai is a small company compared to Yamaha and Roland and Casio. Marketing and model presence in stores cost you real money. These figures are fictious, but while Yamaha sells 1.000 DPs, Kawai might sell 100, so if marketing and presenting test models is about the same percentage of the budget for both companies, Kawai can only be present in 1/10 of the stores compared to Yamaha. That's a significant difference. So - it's a pity, but it's a fact.

This is the nub of the problem - and a Catch 22 for Kawai. Insufficient marketing budget means fewer customers means insufficient marketing budget. I think a lot of us would be motivated to seek out Kawai DPs to test, but while that's just about doable with the home range, the stage pianos are pretty much not to be found, except sealed in online sellers' warehouses.

Supposing I could find one at Sweetwaters in Indiana, that would be almost a 5,000 mile round trip for me. That cost in addition to the purchase price would make the Kawai prohibitively expensive, and would be "wasted" altogether if I decided not to buy it.

In the end it's more likely to be a calculated judgment as to whether the specifications look good enough to risk ordering one sight-unseen. With the strength of the competition from Roland etc., that is a tough call to make. This is why a lot of us are appealing to current owners to try to give as objective an analysis as possible on their experiences with Kawai's latest actions and sound technology.

Being British by birth, I have an inclination to support the underdog, but also believe that smaller companies are often more motivated to push the boundaries as well as to offer a little bit more to their customers. So I would love to have the opportunity to give Kawai my business, but I also think that they have to reach out to us to help us make that decision. James communicates admirably, but seems to be hamstrung by company policy to a certain extent, and is unable to pass on the truly useful information that would help us make informed decisions despite the lack of Kawai's physical presence on the ground. I do hope that in the near future, Kawai will make some bold attempts at marketing their wares more definitively.
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 12:44 AM

I really hope the have upgraded the action.and that it will be kawais best action .

if not i will go with the roland RD700NX

no mention of it on the us site, no wird of when will it come to the US?
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by mucci
The point again is: You have to test the DPs you want to buy to make a decision. If you (I mean the DP buyer) are not engaged enough to find a place where you can test Kawai products, well, then that is one lost customer, so what. Kawai is a small company compared to Yamaha and Roland and Casio. Marketing and model presence in stores cost you real money. These figures are fictious, but while Yamaha sells 1.000 DPs, Kawai might sell 100, so if marketing and presenting test models is about the same percentage of the budget for both companies, Kawai can only be present in 1/10 of the stores compared to Yamaha. That's a significant difference. So - it's a pity, but it's a fact.

This is the nub of the problem - and a Catch 22 for Kawai. Insufficient marketing budget means fewer customers means insufficient marketing budget. I think a lot of us would be motivated to seek out Kawai DPs to test, but while that's just about doable with the home range, the stage pianos are pretty much not to be found, except sealed in online sellers' warehouses.

Supposing I could find one at Sweetwaters in Indiana, that would be almost a 5,000 mile round trip for me. That cost in addition to the purchase price would make the Kawai prohibitively expensive, and would be "wasted" altogether if I decided not to buy it.

In the end it's more likely to be a calculated judgment as to whether the specifications look good enough to risk ordering one sight-unseen. With the strength of the competition from Roland etc., that is a tough call to make. This is why a lot of us are appealing to current owners to try to give as objective an analysis as possible on their experiences with Kawai's latest actions and sound technology.

Being British by birth, I have an inclination to support the underdog, but also believe that smaller companies are often more motivated to push the boundaries as well as to offer a little bit more to their customers. So I would love to have the opportunity to give Kawai my business, but I also think that they have to reach out to us to help us make that decision. James communicates admirably, but seems to be hamstrung by company policy to a certain extent, and is unable to pass on the truly useful information that would help us make informed decisions despite the lack of Kawai's physical presence on the ground. I do hope that in the near future, Kawai will make some bold attempts at marketing their wares more definitively.


Well said. I'm with all of that!
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 03:31 PM

I wonder what the serious downside would be for Kawai to cut a deal with someplace like Costco or GC or BestBuy, just to get their product some showroom space. I don't have the impression that the piano dealerships want or know what to do with them. (Too bad, in a way, because their own fortunes may depend greatly on widening their user base.)

It reminds me somewhat of the situation with Atari Computers. There was a time when they were actually ahead of IBM and Mac in sales; in faithful, installed user base on three continents; in developers. (In fact, their emulator would run Mac programs faster than the Mac, which deeply shocked some Mac partisans.) Gone today, of course; run into the ground by the owners. And, a few revs of Windows later, it didn't seem to matter so much--- anyway, it was too late.)

It could work both ways--- a piano store could partner with one of the online music big boys. Show their stuff, make the sale, it's shipped out that day; both take a rake-off and unit sales go up. Send piano shoppers home with a CD made on the spot in the store to help them hear the difference in the pianos they're considering. Foot traffic and aftermarket sales never hurt a retail outfit any.

Effective marketing has the power to turn even something as worthless as a pack of cigarettes into a 'must have' name-brand necessity. If I didn't drop dead from shock, it would do me a lot of good to see a TV commercial or magazine ad for pianos. They are even able to market bowel movements on television these days--- I only wish it were an exaggeration.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 03:39 PM

Kawai is in a classic hostage situation. They are hostage to their existing distributors, who, although they are not doing the job properly in most markets are responsible for most sales today. To the extent that existing contracts between Kawai and here distributors don't make a move to new channels impossible, distributors could simply dump Kawai if they started selling in big chains thereby turning today's small sales into no sales for a year or two which could be fatal.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 05:44 PM

Kawai Europe and Kawai US are in fact owned by Kawai I believe. Its true that neither of these are doing their job but that comes back to the way Kawai Japan runs things.They need to integrate their operations and marketing worldwide but Kawai is a old fashioned family owned company and I'm not sure they understand at a upper management level that today's market is a world market that requires a worldwide approach. Yes they have huge problems especially in the US with a limited dealer network that concentrates on acoustic sales but their sales of acoustic pianos and to a lesser extent console DP's particularly in Asia have been driving the company.Kawai do not strike me as a company that can move quickly to meet market expectations for information but their products are first class.
I've heard a lot of absolute rubbish in this thread about the action of the MP10 being sub par well I can tell you it is one of the best DP actions for authentic feel I've ever played and anyone trying a MP10 would be struck by the sheer quality of the instrument let alone its best in class user interface and the sound ...well lets just say I feel its well worth a comparative listen.
I'm not being a Kawai apologist by any means its true they are difficult to find, have been less forthcoming with detailed information and have a segmented rather then integrated approach to world marketing but please ... look at Roland ...the RD700NX is shipping out of the factory for a few weeks now and the manual still hasn't been uploaded. The MP10 is a ways from shipping and the manual is was available weeks ago.
I'm sure anyone who plays a MP10 will come away impressed its a viable option and people seem to be dismissing it out of hand over how many sensors its got or what the sampling method is called. It's a digital piano ... no matter what marketing or slogans are used ...the proof will be in the playing.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 05:51 PM

I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron

Thank you for posting that link. The MP10 pianos sound very nice. You can hear that there is a wider dynamic range over the MP6: it sounds like there are additional pp velocity layers, at least.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron


Those sound good. Can't wait to hear the EPs as that will probably be the deciding factor in whether or not I will sell my CP1 and get an MP10.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Interesting. It sounds to me like it is a subtle improvement over the MP6, and not likely the "make or break" difference some have made it out to be. Or put differently, I suspect that someone who likes either one over the Roland SN piano will probably like both of them better; and someone who finds the Roland superior to one of them will probably find it superior to both of them. I think the bigger difference between the MP6 and MP10, from a piano playing perspective, will be in the action rather than in the difference between PHI and UPHI.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
[ I think the bigger difference between the MP6 and MP10, from a piano playing perspective, will be in the action rather than in the difference between PHI and UPHI.


Well said.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think the bigger difference between the MP6 and MP10, from a piano playing perspective, will be in the action rather than in the difference between PHI and UPHI.


I think there will big a big difference in the EP sections much like the CP5 and CP1... at least that's what I'm hoping for.

Although the tonal characteristics are similar, the MP10 sounded noticeably better to me. Coming from the CP1 I would not consider th MP6, but the MP10 seems like a real replacement candidate as the design seems similar to the CP1 with the addition of a graded action, recording and metronome/patterns.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron


Nice detective work Deffie, although it's clear that Kawai America have yet to finalise all of the content on their MP10 pages.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Note that these are not the MP3 demos I was referring to a few pages back. These MIDI-based demos sound reasonably good, but the 'real playing' demos are much better in my opinion.



Please let us know when any EP demos are available. Really want to hear some of those amp sims.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
[...] MP10 [...] I can tell you it is one of the best DP actions for authentic feel I've ever played


I thought it is supposed to be exactly the same as the CA93. (RM3 + LetOff)

Have you played the CA93? Do you find the MP10 different? In what way?

Thank you for explaining:

Csillag
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/24/10 11:35 PM

CSillag,

The MP10 and CA93 actions are identical - both are 'RM3 Grand' with let-off and Ivory Touch key surfaces.

The MP10 shares some of the CA93/CA63 piano sounds, however there are also a number of brand new piano sounds (and additional effects such as 'Damper Noise' and 'Fall Back Noise') that have yet to be featured in a Kawai DP.

You could say that the MP10's sounds are almost like an 'extended' version of UPHI, although no doubt the acronym police would jump on that if we were to ever formally refer to it as such (sigh).

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 05:41 AM

Oh James ...I could say something but I won't ... wink



Originally Posted by Kawai James


Nice detective work Deffie. wink

Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
You could say that the MP10's sounds are almost like an 'extended' version of UPHI, although no doubt the acronym police would jump on that if we were to ever formally refer to it as such (sigh).

You're under arrest for altering the meaning of a meaningless acronym.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 01:26 PM

You'd better hide your fake police badge before getting arrested yourself. grin
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 01:37 PM

More audio demos (including EPs) anyone?

http://kawai.de/mp10_en.htm

Aaron
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
More audio demos (including EPs) anyone?

http://kawai.de/mp10_en.htm

Aaron


Doesn't sound like much of a threat to the CP1...
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
You'd better hide your fake police badge before getting arrested yourself. grin

That was a citizen's arrest.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 02:38 PM

laugh ha
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
More audio demos (including EPs) anyone?

http://kawai.de/mp10_en.htm

Aaron

I guess these are also MIDI-playback, no real live playing yet?
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
More audio demos (including EPs) anyone?

http://kawai.de/mp10_en.htm

Aaron

Thanks for the link. I find the EP samples quite authentic. I think the Wurlis could do with a couple more layer samples (I remember being able to get quite a sustained bell-like tone in the upper register when playing very softly), but overall they sound very true to the originals. Comparing the Kawai Rhodes to the modeled ones on my GEM Prp800, I'd say that they are very similar, but with a little more "edge" definition in the Kawai, plus release samples which is only emulated in the Clav on the GEM.

I'm not sure the playing style of the demos really does the Kawai justice, but I suspect that the overall package of the MP10 will be very pleasing to a player who likes to be able to play with a lot of tonal color. However, nothing that I've heard so far has led me to alter my initial suspicion that the MP6 is a "dumbed down" version (admittedly with added bells and whistles). I think I cold have been very happy with those samples in the MP6, but I'm now even less inclined to put up with second best simply because Kawai is afraid that an equally good-sounding MP6 will impact MP10 sales. As a result I'm seriously considering the Nord piano for its wonderfully transparent APs, even though I actually think from what I've heard today that the Kawai has the better EP implementation (bigger, more detailed samples, I suspect).

One other side note: the Leslie emulator on the MP6 appears to be of the single-rotor type. I could not detect separate horn and bass baffle emulations. If that's true, it's another minor negative for me.

On a positive note, I think those that can handle the weight of the MP10 will be getting a very attractive deal from Kawai. It's a very different beast from both the competing Roland and Yamaha models. Personally, I really like the sounds. The Roland SN EPs have never done it for me, and the new CP series are too non-intuitive in their GUI and, IMO, don't offer such attractive APs.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
I guess these are also MIDI-playback, no real live playing yet?


The most recently posted kawai.de demos were all recorded live using the MP10's USB audio function. I gather the only 'cheating' was on the Clavinet demo, whereby another person turned the effects processor and amp simulator on and off after each phrase.

Originally Posted by voxpops
I'm not sure the playing style of the demos really does the Kawai justice...


Yes, I'm inclined to agree - the style of playing used for the Wurly demos isn't really my cup of tea either. Perhaps I ought to have a crack at recording some of my own Wurly demos? I'm not much of a player, but I reckon I could bash out a handful of R&B riffs that might be a little more suitable for the vintage EP sounds.

Alternatively, I'm sure I could probably 'render' any SMF files I receive using the MP10's tone generator, then make the MP3s available.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: elecmuse3

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by TADutchman
You'd better hide your fake police badge before getting arrested yourself. grin

That was a citizen's arrest.

Is a US or Australian/UK citizen allowed to make a citizen's arrest of a Dutch national over a Japanese resident's acronym non-abuse?
3hearts
Ya gotta love the worldwide web.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:37 PM

James does the MP10 have a CP80 ?
Posted By: elecmuse3

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
James does the MP10 have a CP80 ?

Ugh. One of those compromises that has become a necessity in all its sick inharmonic inglory.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
James does the MP10 have a CP80 ?


You mean does it have an EP-308, surely? wink

No, the MP10's EP section just features tines, reeds, clavs, and a 'modern' sound which may or may not be a DX7. wink
There are no electric grand sounds - Yamaha, Kawai, or otherwise.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: elecmuse3

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
James does the MP10 have a CP80 ?

Here's a pianoworld EP308/CP80 thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1250324/KAWAI%20EP-308,%20Yamaha%20CP-70.html
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Perhaps I ought to have a crack at recording some of my own Wurly demos? I'm not much of a player, but I reckon I could bash out a handful of R&B riffs that might be a little more suitable for the vintage EP sounds.


I think that's a great idea. Go for it, James!
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 05:16 PM

The MP10 has a similar minimalist design bend as the CP1 with a few more features. Even though it is slated to compete with the CP5, I am considering dumping my CP1 for the MP10.

I would like to hear more EP samples because those midi samples did not seem up to par with the CP1. That could just be the playing and the limited sample set.

Everyone keeps talking about the Yamaha GUI being difficult. I wonder if people who say that are basing it on their experience with the CP5. The CP5 GUI is a mess. The CP1 couldn't be more simple or direct. I would say the CP1 has a far simpler and more direct approach than just about any stage DP out there.

Originally Posted by voxpops
It's a very different beast from both the competing Roland and Yamaha models. Personally, I really like the sounds. The Roland SN EPs have never done it for me, and the new CP series are too non-intuitive in their GUI and, IMO, don't offer such attractive APs.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by elecmuse3
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
James does the MP10 have a CP80 ?

Ugh. One of those compromises that has become a necessity in all its sick inharmonic inglory.


Hey, the CP80 on the CP1 sounds gloriously inharmonic and I love it... I just haven't found a use for it.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 06:16 PM

Just listened to the EPs again through headphones. The underlying tone of the EPs sounnd pretty good but, it is really hard to tell with the way it is played in those samples. I love my CP1 because when you dig into the EPs you really hear all of the grit and subtlties that went into the samples. With the way the MP10 samples are played there is very littel opportunity to hear any of that. I need to get my hands on the MP10 or hear some live playing samples.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Everyone keeps talking about the Yamaha GUI being difficult. I wonder if people who say that are basing it on their experience with the CP5. The CP5 GUI is a mess. The CP1 couldn't be more simple or direct. I would say the CP1 has a far simpler and more direct approach than just about any stage DP out there.

Originally Posted by voxpops
It's a very different beast from both the competing Roland and Yamaha models. Personally, I really like the sounds. The Roland SN EPs have never done it for me, and the new CP series are too non-intuitive in their GUI and, IMO, don't offer such attractive APs.


Yes, I was thinking about the CP5 and CP50. I wouldn't want to have to spend $5k to get a usable layout!
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 06:33 PM

I got lucky and bought mine new for significatly less. The CP5 immediately turned me off but the CP1 was exactly the opposite. The simplicity of it is what appealed to me... and the EP section on the CP1 is a totally different beast.

Originally Posted by voxpops
Yes, I was thinking about the CP5 and CP50. I wouldn't want to have to spend $5k to get a usable layout!
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 07:05 PM

Perhaps it was already mentioned, but there was a review of the MP6 in the German Keyboards. It says exactly......nothing !

I never understand these reviews. They simply list all the specifications wit some chit-chat around the technical details and that's it. No personal impression of the sound quality , or any other part of the instrument other than some general remarks. Oh, and all is great of course , good value for money, bla bla bla. I hoped it would reveal something useful but it didn't. Let's wait until some pro get's his hands on a unit and can tell the real pro's and con's from his own experience...
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Being British by birth, I have an inclination to support the underdog, but also believe that smaller companies are often more motivated to push the boundaries as well as to offer a little bit more to their customers. So I would love to have the opportunity to give Kawai my business, but [...]


I don't think this sentinent is specific to the British; for example, I come from Hungary (Europe), and feel exactly the same way.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/25/10 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I need to get my hands on the MP10 or hear some live playing samples.

USB recorded samples of live playing do not (yet) sound as high-end as the sound of actually playing an MP10 (given the implementation of USB recording is identical to the CA93 with firmware v1.07), so I guess only getting your hands on the MP10 will give you a real sound experience.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
I need to get my hands on the MP10 or hear some live playing samples.

USB recorded samples of live playing do not (yet) sound as high-end as the sound of actually playing an MP10 (given the implementation of USB recording is identical to the CA93 with firmware v1.07), so I guess only getting your hands on the MP10 will give you a real sound experience.


I was thinking more of studio recording, but it would probably be wise to get my hands on one first anyway.

I'm not aware of the issue you are referring to. Is the USB recording using a low bitrate or something?
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 12:51 AM

CP80 is unharmonic ? Geeze a CP80 helped pay for my first house ! Back then all we had onstage for piano was a CP80 or a DX7 ...that was it ! I love the CP80 ...I rue the day I sold mine !
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP80 is unharmonic ? Geeze a CP80 helped pay for my first house ! Back then all we had onstage for piano was a CP80 or a DX7 ...that was it ! I love the CP80 ...I rue the day I sold mine !


Never played an orignal CP80, but the CP80 on the C1 is fantastic and very easily adjusted to suit your taste. I would be interested to know how someone like you who once loved the CP80 feels about the CP80 on the C1 (not the C5).
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 01:31 AM

I played a CP80 for a London stage show in 1983/84; it was wonderful. The band were positioned on a moving part of the stage set at second-storey height. Every time the set moved, everything would lurch and shake, and it was a challenge not to suddenly play everything a few semitones sharp or flat. The CP80 was chosen for weight and "ease" of installation. It was perfect for the style of music we were playing.

Now, I'm not sure I need to be able to reproduce that sound again. However, it is certainly a distinctive sound.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 03:43 AM

.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:24 AM


I love it ! It one of my favorite CP1 patches. The band has a song that starts with just vocals and a CP80 ...always a crowd favorite. Back in the day I used to play it on a real CP80 but the CP1 does the job these days. DX7 has been replaced as well on stage. Things change but I'd love a CP80m if I could find one in excellent condition.


Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
CP80 is unharmonic ? Geeze a CP80 helped pay for my first house ! Back then all we had onstage for piano was a CP80 or a DX7 ...that was it ! I love the CP80 ...I rue the day I sold mine !


Never played an orignal CP80, but the CP80 on the C1 is fantastic and very easily adjusted to suit your taste. I would be interested to know how someone like you who once loved the CP80 feels about the CP80 on the C1 (not the C5).
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Is the USB recording using a low bitrate or something?

Assuming that the MP10 USB recording implementation is identical: my CA93 can do either MP3 or WAV direct USB recording, but the point is that in it's current state it results in a relatively low-volume 16-bit file, as there's no mastering compressor/limiter used. This doesn't give a real impression of the actual sound quality (also I was told that it is not a purely digital recording, i.e. not before the DAC).

Playing back over headphones after using the internal track recorder of my CA93 is way superior in quality! Luckily, this is the exact same quality as playing live. smile
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by TADutchman
I was told that it is not a purely digital recording, i.e. not before the DAC


Who told you that?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Who told you that?

You have received a PM with the answer to this question.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 10:00 AM

The next question of course is if Kawai James is disputing it....
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 11:49 AM

Well, when I put this same question to the CA93/CA63 product leader last year I was told that WAV/MP3 recording is purely digital - i.e. there is no digital-->analogue conversion.

I will need to clarify that this is still the case for the MP6/MP10, however given that we're using the same codec, I cannot see why this functionality would change.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Well, when I put this same question to the CA93/CA63 product leader last year I was told that WAV/MP3 recording is purely digital - i.e. there is no digital-->analogue conversion.


I don't know the right answer but using common sense it must be this way. Otherwise the sound would go though the DAC, and then for being recorded digitally at this point, would have to pass through an ADC again to be returned to the digital domain. Two unnecessary steps that can be avoided if the sound is captured when it is still digital and directly dumped to a file. Much easier to design it this way.

Even more, I am not sure why a DP has to have an ADC. Only would be needed for capturing an analog line-in and storing it on a device. Not sure if DPs with line-in (as the MP10) have to do that.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie
...using common sense...

Given the positive response of KawaiJames, I would suggest to now focus on the part of my post which was not placed in parentheses: using common sense, this would imply a firmware update that, next to users, would also enable Kawai to publish highest-quality digital USB-recordings, without having to resort to external recording equipment. smile wink
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 03:57 PM

Well, the quality of the recording actually isn't that bad. I always record in WAV, because I regard the MP3 encoder within the CA63 to be of best medium quality. You can hear artifact in ppp passages. This is not the case with WAV recording, you can then, after some volume adjustment, encode in MP3.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Well, the quality of the recording actually isn't that bad. I always record in WAV, because I regard the MP3 encoder within the CA63 to be of best medium quality. You can hear artifact in ppp passages. This is not the case with WAV recording, you can then, after some volume adjustment, encode in MP3.


If I owned Kawai I'd do one thing at this stage.

Get a proper piano player, record them through the line out of both the MP6 and MP10 at 24bit through an adult audio interface (using decent quality uncompressed files) Record some proper world class demo's and post them on their website. Include GP samples, their jazz and mellow pianos with suitable musicians (and I'm not talking half wit german presenter/keyboardist). Then get some 'synth' types to play some of the synth side of the keyboard.

Roland's FP7F presentation is rubbish. I don't want expensive panning camera shots of a woman sitting at the piano with the wind in her hair.. This is our money we're spending and we don't want marketed production shots to confuse our purchases. If Roland aren't honest enough to present the real product to us then I'd like to think that Kawai would have the intelligence to put themselves in a better position than getting some cheesemeister to play crumby passages over an 80's drum beat. We're not idiots...

The forum members here could do a better job of this stuff. What's the pay???

Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 04:42 PM

I think I've already posted this question in another thread, but don't recall getting any info from it. So here again:

Both the MP6/10 and Roland NX/FP7F have Ivory touch keytops. Is there a large difference between the Kawai version of 'Ivory' touch and the Roland implementation. The RD700GX was famous on some threads for it's degrading Ivory keys and in a test they were called slippery (while they shouldn't be, exactly because of the Ivory touch).

Are the Kawai keys also susceptible to dirt/ liquids and are the new Roland keys less susceptible than the previous PHA-II with Ivory tops ?

I think it's good to know if either Roland or Kawai had done a better job in this respect.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 04:54 PM

Another Question; I was listening through some of the demo MP3's on the Kawai website, but was very annoyed by the fact that all the transients we're cut-off the notes. "zip. zip , zip" on each note's start, as if there was an extremely short fade-in, or noise-gate active. I assume this is a fault of the MP3 encoding "quality" and not in the actual recording (I hope!)

Are there some higher quality recordings around (not MP3 rubbish, but proper AIFF / WAV files or very high bit rate AAC's ?)

Thanks for any links

J
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Another Question; I was listening through some of the demo MP3's on the Kawai website, but was very annoyed by the fact that all the transients we're cut-off the notes. "zip. zip , zip" on each note's start, as if there was an extremely short fade-in, or noise-gate active. I assume this is a fault of the MP3 encoding "quality" and not in the actual recording (I hope!)

Are there some higher quality recordings around (not MP3 rubbish, but proper AIFF / WAV files or very high bit rate AAC's ?)

Thanks for any links

J


See my post two above yours..

Regards.. Rimmer
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:12 PM

Any DP with a line in that is capable of recording the line in and spitting it out as a WAV or MP3 file must have an ADC somewhere. That being said, it doesn't seem like it would make any sense to force a pure internal recording to go through an analog conversion before being available in WAV or MP3. The only reason I could see them doing that is for a simplified design or cost considerations.

Originally Posted by kurtie

Even more, I am not sure why a DP has to have an ADC. Only would be needed for capturing an analog line-in and storing it on a device. Not sure if DPs with line-in (as the MP10) have to do that.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Any DP with a line in that is capable of recording the line in and spitting it out as a WAV or MP3 file must have an ADC somewhere. That being said, it doesn't seem like it would make any sense to force a pure internal recording to go through an analog conversion before being available in WAV or MP3. The only reason I could see them doing that is for a simplified design or cost considerations.

Originally Posted by kurtie

Even more, I am not sure why a DP has to have an ADC. Only would be needed for capturing an analog line-in and storing it on a device. Not sure if DPs with line-in (as the MP10) have to do that.


I agree. If the unit has a USB interface internally then the only real way to present the keyboard's sound to the masses is either to record the D/A's output to a proper A/D interface or record the USB audio output to a respected audio file format and post that.

A compromised audio format is not what we're looking for. Mp3 is very old hat now and not a format that anyone would expect to be offered as a quality representation of a serious audio device.

If you went and recorded an orchestra with a couple of schoeps microphones and posted the recording using a 192kbps MP3 and said, 'listen the quality of this..!' to a professional recording engineering audience, they would think you were joking with them.

Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:22 PM

No Ivory degradation for Kawai keys, never heard of that!
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:23 PM

To Rimmer; sorry I missed that. This thread is getting rather long, so sometimes I skip reading everything a bit...

I assume we agree that the old (!) mp3 format is not suitable for judging the quality of piano recordings. (As a former audio engineer I know it's definitely not for many reasons). I hope we will see some uncompressed samples on the web soon (Kawai - please, storage and download speed are not really the reason for not supplying some high res files these days; it's almost 2011).

Would be nice if all instrument makes would post HQ sample material to give the potential customers a good impression of the quality of the sounds, instead of this old fashioned low grade MP3 stuff. The sound is what mostly sells these instruments after all , so put you're best effort in trying to convince the customer.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:24 PM

BTW MP3 is absolutely fine starting at about 192kbit if encoded properly. Kawai gives you the choice of either record in MP3 or in WAV format.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
To Rimmer; sorry I missed that. This thread is getting rather long, so sometimes I skip reading everything a bit...

I assume we agree that the old (!) mp3 format is not suitable for judging the quality of piano recordings. (As a former audio engineer I know it's definitely not for many reasons). I hope we will see some uncompressed samples on the web soon (Kawai - please, storage and download speed are not really the reason for not supplying some high res files these days; it's almost 2011).

Would be nice if all instrument makes would post HQ sample material to give the potential customers a good impression of the quality of the sounds, instead of this old fashioned low grade MP3 stuff. The sound is what mostly sells these instruments after all , so put you're best effort in trying to convince the customer.


Amen..

Easy to miss posts and I wasn't expecting you to have read it. Just pointing towards it.. wink

I don't get the lack of HQ samples though. The internet is faster than Mp3's and beyond so it's obviously very dated (as you know) to expect us to put up with them as points of reference for serious audio devices..

Regards.. Rimmer... smile
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
BTW MP3 is absolutely fine starting at about 192kbit if encoded properly. Kawai gives you the choice of either record in MP3 or in WAV format.


Mp3 is old and in my opinion not good quality without considering the settings and encoder type. It suits some music better than others from experience. None of them that well..

It's okay for iPods and such like for general foot tapping. Mp4 audio is better and has been out for years. There is no denying that uncompressed audio is best for this sort of judgement and a format that is unavoidable if you wish to truly present audio in it's purest sense. 24bit recording is dynamically better..

Anyone that has sat at a real piano knows that it's dynamic range is impressive and needs to be represented well when recorded. Mp3, regardless of it's bit rate is poor for representing a piano.. Why any modern audio device manufacturer would choose MP3 as a format to save audio as is quite beyond me (yep, I know they offer wav but not as the format representing their samples). It just goes to show they aren't taking things seriously enough.. Using it as a format to present their audio devices (and lets face it, up against stiff competition..) is way way out of touch with their serious customers..

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:46 PM

It's a shame we can't get FLAC versions; no reason to use WAV when you can losslessly compress it. Actually, it'd be really nice if we could save directly to FLAC on current pianos. The codec's free and open, so no licensing issues either.

Aaron
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie
It's a shame we can't get FLAC versions; no reason to use WAV when you can losslessly compress it. Actually, it'd be really nice if we could save directly to FLAC on current pianos. The codec's free and open, so no licensing issues either.

Aaron


Good one. I simply don't get why we are expected to accept these audio compromises. Once upon a time yes. I remember dial up as the option and MP3 was great then. FLAC is a great format but even then, it's a compromise (agreed, much much less of one).

I'll shut up now.. grin
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
BTW MP3 is absolutely fine starting at about 192kbit if encoded properly. Kawai gives you the choice of either record in MP3 or in WAV format.

I agree with mucci. Get the bitrate high enough and MP3 is absolutely fine for just about anything. Though I prefer 32 bit WAV if there will be EQ, compression, etc. done to it later.

Besides, we're talking about compressing the output of a DP that is audibly looped - does anyone really care how the sound gets mangled after that? IMO that's the 500lb elephant in the room.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
Originally Posted by Deffie
It's a shame we can't get FLAC versions; no reason to use WAV when you can losslessly compress it. Actually, it'd be really nice if we could save directly to FLAC on current pianos. The codec's free and open, so no licensing issues either.

Aaron


Good one. I simply don't get why we are expected to accept these audio compromises. Once upon a time yes. I remember dial up as the option and MP3 was great then. FLAC is a great format but even then, it's a compromise (agreed, much much less of one).

I'll shut up now.. grin


FLAC isn't really a compromise, it's just losslessly compressed. As long as it's the same bitrate as the original WAV then it's identical but smaller.

Aaron
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:21 PM

MP3 has some serious flaws in the way the codec works (the algorithms involved, based on early adaptions of psychoacoustic processing - e.g. masking of frequency regions etc). In later incarnations the implemented algorithms have been improved (AAC and others). It is already very hard to record a grand piano and capture all it's characteristics in a good way using 192KHz/24 bit audio or DSD. MP3 just messes this up in many ways. Perhaps it's OK for analysis in the computer of looping and stretching behavior of the keyranges, but for listening and judging the tonal quality of a (digital) piano recording it simply is not sufficient. As a listener you simply cannot know if you're listening to flaws in the piano-sound itself, or flaws in the MP3 encoding/decoding.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:30 PM

You Mr. No Loop are making me loopy with your loopy crusade against loopy looped loops.

Nevertheless, I completely respect your opinion and preferences on the matter.

I am a bit surprised you are fine with 192kbit in general. Although most people won't be able to distinguish it in a double blind test, the eyes might see it differently.



Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by mucci
BTW MP3 is absolutely fine starting at about 192kbit if encoded properly. Kawai gives you the choice of either record in MP3 or in WAV format.

I agree with mucci. Get the bitrate high enough and MP3 is absolutely fine for just about anything. Though I prefer 32 bit WAV if there will be EQ, compression, etc. done to it later.

Besides, we're talking about compressing the output of a DP that is audibly looped - does anyone really care how the sound gets mangled after that? IMO that's the 500lb elephant in the room.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Perhaps it's OK for analysis in the computer of looping and stretching behavior of the keyranges, but for listening and judging the tonal quality of a (digital) piano recording it simply is not sufficient. As a listener you simply cannot know if you're listening to flaws in the piano-sound itself, or flaws in the MP3 encoding/decoding.

I don't know... I don't think digital pianos have yet gotten so good that we are down to the level of detail where MP3-related flaws would be an issue. Or put differently, if you listen to a good MP3 of a good acoustic piano, you can still tell it's a good acoustic piano.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
You Mr. No Loop are making me loopy with your loopy crusade against loopy looped loops.

Nevertheless, I completely respect your opinion and preferences on the matter.

I am a bit surprised you are fine with 192kbit in general. Although most people won't be able to distinguish it in a double blind test the eyes might see it differently.



Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by mucci
BTW MP3 is absolutely fine starting at about 192kbit if encoded properly. Kawai gives you the choice of either record in MP3 or in WAV format.

I agree with mucci. Get the bitrate high enough and MP3 is absolutely fine for just about anything. Though I prefer 32 bit WAV if there will be EQ, compression, etc. done to it later.

Besides, we're talking about compressing the output of a DP that is audibly looped - does anyone really care how the sound gets mangled after that? IMO that's the 500lb elephant in the room.


I understand Dewster's frustration, but I see it slightly differently. I need the illusion of playing a "real" instrument to be sufficiently good that I am not shaken out of the muse by unnatural artifacts. I don't care if it's looped as long as I don't hear it as a loop.

What I think is really annoying in this day of multi-gigabyte samples and excellent modeling, is for hardware manufacturers to ration their comparatively low-end premier technology, and expect many potential purchasers of their "professional" products to make do with yesterday's sound engine. What are they thinking - that we won't notice?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 07:07 PM

You can't capture the (ultra-fast) transients , highest detail infrequencies and 'room' impression in a satisfy-able way with MP3. And that's what you need if you really want to make a good judgement about the actual sound quality of a recording, be it a an acoustical or digital piano performance. I only started this comment, because the Kawai MP3's sound terrible to my ears ( I hear things I shouldn't hear in the digital domain) and I need to make sure that's it's the MP3 that's doing that and NOT the real Kawai sound. If it is the Kawai sound than it definitely is not for me, but I'm sure it's not that bad ;-)
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
... I see it slightly differently. I need the illusion of playing a "real" instrument to be sufficiently good that I am not shaken out of the muse by unnatural artifacts. I don't care if it's looped as long as I don't hear it as a loop.

Honestly, that's pretty much where I am too. But no one is doing looping correctly (5 to 10 seconds attack sample followed by a 5 to 10 second loop sample) so I'm declaring a personal ban on anything looped that we might purchase new.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I don't know... I don't think digital pianos have yet gotten so good that we are down to the level of detail where MP3-related flaws would be an issue. Or put differently, if you listen to a good MP3 of a good acoustic piano, you can still tell it's a good acoustic piano.

I agree. This DP/MP3 discussion is somewhat akin to complaining loudly that a woman's makeup is slightly smudged without bothering to note that Jack the Ripper had previously disemboweled her.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 08:11 PM

Oh, now you're really going loopy; don't you just hate those AvantGrand N3 recordings? grin
http://www.goingloopy.piczo.com/?cr=4

Seriously, be certain of the fact that I wouldn't have started the discussion if there wasn't a major difference in perceived piano recording/playback quality (I'm not referring to MP3 vs WAV).
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 08:40 PM

I'm only talking about the MP3 demo's of the new Kawai's on the Web! My opinion about the sound quality of those demo's . I hear things that annoy me and that are probably related to the MP3 transcoding. Therefore I cannot make a proper judgement wether I like the pianosound of the MP6/10 , or not. The transients are somehow cut/"faded"...

That's all I'm saying. If the demo's we're crystal clear I wouldn't bother to mentioned it.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 08:49 PM

This is going to be way offtopic, but you started it... so:

All you MP3 bashers, I'm very sorry to disappoint you. MP3, despite its age and lossy compression, should be ABSOLUTELY fine for piano recordings (and many other recordings)!

I may not be a very good piano player, but I'm a professional in audio recording and mastering and hifi equipment. Todays audio experts do agree that, using a modern encoder like the freely availabe LAME encoder, leads to transparent results you can't distinguish from original CD sound quality. The point where this transparency start differ a little bit individually, but it starts at about 192kbit, for many people even earlier. What does that mean? Well, many people think that they can hear differences between MP3 and CD quality. That's in most cases just their imagination, a placebo effect. You can only prove that you can hear a difference if you perform a so called ABX test, which is a blind test where you get both compressed and uncompressed audio randomly and have lots of time to decide which is which.

I once also thought that I can hear quality differences even between high quality MP3 and CD, but then I did an ABX test and was shocked that I had no chance to hear any differences starting with about 192kbit. The test was performed using high quality HIFI components and a $350 Headphone (which has much more resolution than even high end loudspeakers that cost thousands of dollars).

You can read more about this on hydrogenaudio.org, an audio related website with very high reputation and lots of detailed information about different audio codecs:

wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency

To sum up: MP3, correctly encoded, delivers high quality audio that is absolutely comparable with WAV or FLAC audio. It's just not the proper format if you want to process the audio further.

I hope I could give you some more insight into this very interesting topic!
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 09:55 PM

Chaps,

I honestly don't believe there is a problem with the encoding quality of the MP3 demos, and I'm reasonably confident that 99% of listeners will feel exactly the same way.

However for the remaining 1% of you that insist the MP3 compression is hampering their enjoyment of the demos, or their ability to assess the tonal character of each sound, I'll ask my colleagues at Kawai Europe if FLAC versions can be made available.

As a FOSS advocate, I'd personally love to see direct Ogg Vorbis recording on the the MP6/MP10. However even then, I expect we'd still see a handful of posts from folks who just like to complain about everything:

"OMGZ!!!!! I can't believe you are you using the v1.4.0 encoder...that's soooo lame!!!! Everyone knows that aoTuV beta 5 blows the official Xiph build away - man, you suck!!!!

...

Anyway, Rimmer, may I ask you to please clarify what is wrong with FLAC?

Cheers,
James
x

Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 10:15 PM

James, we all know that nothing is wrong with FLAC - it's lossless compression, so absolutely bit-identical with the original file.

And regarding Ogg Vorbis - I would like this as an additional format, but not as the only available format - otherwise I would have to reencode it because most MP3 players are not able to playback Vorbis files.
Posted By: egallego

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 10:34 PM

Well, I agree with JFP that the mp3 demos on kawai.de sounds really bad.

I don't know what is the cause, but sound in youtube videos/playing CA models is much better.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/26/10 10:38 PM

I must be the 1% of whiners who complain about roughly just everything and who has MP3 paranoia , caused by the placebo effect ;-)

Things have gotten a little blown out of proportion the thread I'm afraid ; just wanted to know for sure if some 'things' I heard in the MP demo's were coming from the MP or introduced somewhere in during recording/ encoding /web-posting / decoding. That's all..

The questions I had regarding the Ivory touch difference between Roland and Kawai are much more important to me. Also I wonder if the damper/sus pedal is also limited in resolution, as with the CA13 in comparison to the CA63/93 ?

So forget the MP3 stuff for now (although a FLAC alternative would be really nice...)

Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 02:05 AM

Well, maybe my ears just aren't as good, but personally I thought the mp3 demos sounded fine. I just tossed out FLAC as an option because I thought it'd be a nice feature.

Honestly, I'm much more interested in how the MP10 sounds when I play it than in prerecorded demos, so I'm looking forward to when I get to try it out.

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 02:38 AM

I received additional information regarding the USB Recorder function from one of the MP6/MP10 engineers and can confirm that the process is purely digital - just like the CA93/CA63.

The MP10's implementation is slightly different however, due to the added LINE IN recording support (i.e. the external audio is mixed with the tone generator). However, when the LINE IN volume fader is in the bottom position external audio mixing is disabled, resulting in a purely digital MP3/WAV output directly from the tone generator.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Anyway, Rimmer, may I ask you to please clarify what is wrong with FLAC?

Cheers,
James
x



Hi. Nothing wrong with FLAC at all, but compressing anything that is as short as Kawai's piano presentations seems unnecessary to me in this day and age. FLAC away then, Mp3? no thanks. I'd rather see Kawai sampling the audio output of their machines, so we can hear the whole thing (D/A and all) as it will sound to the owner, by using a decent audio interface then presenting the resulting audio (unadulterated) on their website.

While people insist on using MP3 year on year, better formats (and you've said it yourself, OGG) don't get much of a look in. Stop using legacy encoders and better ones have more of a chance of becoming a common standard. Even AAC has struggled to some extent. The only reason I suspect it's around in any force is due to iTunes. Apple is quite a fan of FLAC, or certainly was the last time I looked. Mp3 isn't colouring anything in a good way, like a record or a tape machine. It's a digitally legacy product that needs to pass.

The reality of this encoding stuff is, encoding audio or data is generally to reduce it's size though (certainly these days) it isn't as important as it once was as far as audio is concerned (not for data obviously) . Even ten years ago most of us were dialling up to get on the internet and compromises had to be made. Mp3 had taken off and for good reason, but it was obvious at that stage that the compromise was audible.

I simply don't get why people cling on to average when there has been better options out there for years. It's almost like it's more a brand than FLAC or AAC so people feel more comfortable with it. At least use AAC which doesn't contain many of the transient loss and timing issues of MP3 (and is smaller).

The other issue people aren't addressing is, there hasn't been just one MP3 codec in use. Some Mp3 compression apps have clearly been better than others (more obviously so 10 years ago). Just look at .AVI encoding. I've been amazed at some of the .AVI encoding that a friend of mine does. I don't know how he does it but it looks very close to what i'd expect from a DVD. Some .AVI encoded video is poor. Is it the encoder? .AVI itself? Maybe the user?!?

If 99% of listeners feel there is nothing different from the sound of the original material versus a 192k Mp3 then that's totally understandable. If you were to put one of these people in a professional studio or mastering suite and play them a professionally recorded grand either analogue or 192khz/24bit then then play them the Mp3 192khz, they are going to notice. If they don't, they're deaf.

So, 99% of people? maybe but it seems a little high... say 95% of people are happy with Mp3's being used to represent the critical listening of a professional audio device. The other 5% aren't happy and i'm one of them.

I get the feeling you are putting my kind in some sort of 'geek' position in your mind with your "OMGZ!!!!! paragraph which is unfair. It's not really flattering for an employee of a piano manufacturer (particularly one that seemingly struggles to get their DP's in the market place) to be enforcing Mp3 as an acceptable audio standard to represent the company's downloadable reproduction of their instruments. I'd expect you would be of the opinion that it's a dated approach rather than thinking that people that don't think it's acceptable are finickity geeks.

If i'm in 1% of the population that think paying for 24bit audio interfaces over Mp3 recording is worth the money, then i'm happy where I am. I think the reality is many many more musicians appreciate the quality of higher end audio when it comes to representing themselves. The professional industry? no question whatsoever. I'll put up with the Mp3's in this situation but it seems a shame to not make more of an effort, and even more of a shame to feel there is no audible difference worth noting.

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:09 AM

I think I can hear MP3 artifacts in the MP10 demos - I noticed it straight away. I can hear subtle "chuff" sounds right at the beginning of the attacks. I would be very keen to hear higher bitrate versions and/or lossless versions. (MP3 is definitely capable of reproducing pianos with very high fidelity to my liking - I am not knocking MP3 at all) I am not 100% sure that the "chuffs" are artifacts though.

Greg.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Deffie
Originally Posted by Rimmer
Originally Posted by Deffie
It's a shame we can't get FLAC versions; no reason to use WAV when you can losslessly compress it. Actually, it'd be really nice if we could save directly to FLAC on current pianos. The codec's free and open, so no licensing issues either.

Aaron


Good one. I simply don't get why we are expected to accept these audio compromises. Once upon a time yes. I remember dial up as the option and MP3 was great then. FLAC is a great format but even then, it's a compromise (agreed, much much less of one).

I'll shut up now.. grin


FLAC isn't really a compromise, it's just losslessly compressed. As long as it's the same bitrate as the original WAV then it's identical but smaller.

Aaron


Audibly not. I didn't mean to express that it was an audible compromise, more the fact that we should be offered 24bit PCM material without running the original material through an additional processes. Fussy? maybe, but I don't see why offering the original source material should be a problem..

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:28 AM

Oh, I see that it's 192kbits/s. I doubt that I'm hearing MP3 artifacts in that case.

Greg.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 06:39 AM

Rimmer, I'm afraid that you really seem like kind of a geek if you're even regard FLAC as kind of a compromise. You get identical 24bit stuff with FLAC.... Additional processing? The CPU of your computer even don't recognize that FLAC is some additional work to do...

And regarding your lengthy post about MP3... You ignore that MP3 is transparent. 95%? 99%? I would even dare to say (if you don't have a hearing problem that somehow unmasks the psychoacoustical model of lossy codecs) that 100% can't hear a difference even with high quality equipment. I would suggest to perform an ABX test, this is an eye opener.

You're right that 24bit or even 32bit high resolution 192khz audio is absolutely beneficial, but not for end user reasons - it's beneficial for postproduction of audio material, so that you have lots of headroom. For the end result after mastering 16bit/44.1khz is absolutely sufficient, mostly also in a lossy (but transparent) format. So why DP brands should provide lossless high resolution audio demos? No DP brand currently does that.

I have a completely different problem with the demos currently available. I would be happy enough if the MP3 demos would contain real life examples, long sustain notes and stuff like that so that you can really hear the quality of the piano sounds. Instead they mostly provide some classical pieces or mixed down accompanied songs which sound nice but by no means show how the DP really sounds when you are playing it.

So the only way to find out is performing your own live test.

Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 07:44 AM

That's what I said all the time; the chuff sounds (I called it "zip, zip , zip") at the beginning of each note, especially in the mid register. I was already starting to distrust my ears, but lucky enough someone else noticed it too now. Listen carefully and you'll be surprised. If it's NOT the MP3 encoding, then there's something else very wrong with the sound. My ears never lie to me, they start to miss a little high frequency range, but "chuff, zip, whoosh" sounds are easy too catch ;-)
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
Rimmer, I'm afraid that you really seem like kind of a geek if you're even regard FLAC as kind of a compromise. You get identical 24bit stuff with FLAC.... Additional processing? The CPU of your computer even don't recognize that FLAC is some additional work to do...


It's MP3 I regard as a compromise and more importantly the unwillingness to provide a true to life example of the instrument, which would include the D/A.. Anything other than a straight recording from the output of the instrument seems a shortcut/shortcoming to me. I'd have no problem with FLAC at all. If you don't provide an unadulterated audio file (and this has been proved in this thread) then people have every reason to question the data compression routine if they have an issue with the sound of the instrument itself rather than simply being objective about the sound of the instrument in all it's glory.

Originally Posted by mucci
And regarding your lengthy post about MP3... You ignore that MP3 is transparent. 95%? 99%? I would even dare to say (if you don't have a hearing problem that somehow unmasks the psychoacoustical model of lossy codecs) that 100% can't hear a difference even with high quality equipment. I would suggest to perform an ABX test, this is an eye opener.


If MP3 is transparent then it goes against everything people know about the potential shortcomings of some of the compression settings. If the case is that any old MP3 codec setting is okay the it makes all newer formats a complete waste of time as well as anything over 16bit PCM for recording. Maybe James can tell us what the MP3 settings are on the MP6/10. VBR? LAME Encoder?

Originally Posted by mucci


You're right that 24bit or even 32bit high resolution 192khz audio is absolutely beneficial, but not for end user reasons - it's beneficial for postproduction of audio material, so that you have lots of headroom. For the end result after mastering 16bit/44.1khz is absolutely sufficient, mostly also in a lossy (but transparent) format. So why DP brands should provide lossless high resolution audio demos? No DP brand currently does that.


Okay. I agree with what you are saying about using the highest bit rate (and sampling rate) for moving data around, for processing, being beneficial but sampling a 16bit 44.1khz source signal at those higher rates only benefits the fact that you reduce the chance of losing resolution. It obviously doesn't increase the original quality of the captured source. What I proposed was sampling the source signal at the higher rate in the first place. There is nothing unbeneficial about that.. It appears that the audio we hear from Kawai is internally converted using an Mp3 codec to a memory stick at 192 then ran through Flash player. If nobody has a problem with that being the only reference material for their device then I have no problem with that. I have a problem with people claiming that anyone who questions that process as not being a perfect representation of the output of the instrument is being a geek about audio and has no basis to object.

Originally Posted by mucci


I have a completely different problem with the demos currently available. I would be happy enough if the MP3 demos would contain real life examples, long sustain notes and stuff like that so that you can really hear the quality of the piano sounds. Instead they mostly provide some classical pieces or mixed down accompanied songs which sound nice but by no means show how the DP really sounds when you are playing it.

So the only way to find out is performing your own live test.


Agreed. I tried to download the samples from the Kawai website but they are running through Adobe Flash player so I don't even know if their internal codec uses VBR. It seems people don't care that much anyway so i'm tempted to shut my gob on the subject.

I've tried to help people here that have said things like "there is no latency whilst recording audio" and "there is no point in recording using anything better than a low grade consumer recorder, or any old line in on any old computer". I'm starting to get a picture of the technical understanding of some of the general forum members and I think I am learning that people don't really care about the quality of the recording process of their pianos. Fair enough. I'm only trying to help. They are more interested in the general sound through their headphones and monitors and seem to care less (generalising a bit here..!) about recording quality. Even to the point they don't care about the material presented to them by the manufacturers, as long as it's in the "100% linear" Mp3 format. My recording process would be to record the audio through a quality D/A at 24bit (up to 192khz but usually at 44-48khz). If you go to a professional recording studio with your memory stick containing an MP3 and claim it's linear and dynamically uncompromised and that nobody will ever hear the difference then they will frown at you. Maybe they are wrong, but I doubt it..

I'll accept from now on that the general consensus here is that MP3 is a linear compression process (if you set any encoder at 192 and ignore any other settings and the encoder used) and nothing above is worth considering. If it's as good as perfect in people's eyes then i've run out of steam on discussing the subject. Again, I am only trying to help as well as get some advice on DP's for myself, from people that know better than me..

Regards. Rimmer

Originally Posted by mucci
You can read more about this on hydrogenaudio.org, an audio related website with very high reputation and lots of detailed information about different audio codecs:

wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency


With the present competition between compression formats (open and proprietary) and encoder implementations (GPL'd, proprietary), any claims of transparency at any given bitrate should always be considered with some skepticism.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Rimmer

Originally Posted by mucci
You can read more about this on hydrogenaudio.org, an audio related website with very high reputation and lots of detailed information about different audio codecs:

wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency


With the present competition between compression formats (open and proprietary) and encoder implementations (GPL'd, proprietary), any claims of transparency at any given bitrate should always be considered with some skepticism.


@Rimmer, right, that translates to: Be cautious if some encoder developer claims that its codec is transparent starting at xxxkbit. Absolutely! There need to be independent tests! For MP3 it is proven that 192kbit is in most cases absolutely transparent. Add some bits to it (like LAME -v2 which is a VBR format about 200-240 depending on the complexity of the song) you're on the secure side. So you always should only trust your own ears (doing ABX test...).
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by Rimmer

Originally Posted by mucci
You can read more about this on hydrogenaudio.org, an audio related website with very high reputation and lots of detailed information about different audio codecs:

wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency


With the present competition between compression formats (open and proprietary) and encoder implementations (GPL'd, proprietary), any claims of transparency at any given bitrate should always be considered with some skepticism.


@Rimmer, right, that translates to: Be cautious if some encoder developer claims that its codec is transparent starting at xxxkbit. Absolutely! There need to be independent tests! For MP3 it is proven that 192kbit is in most cases absolutely transparent. Add some bits to it (like LAME -v2 which is a VBR format about 200-240 depending on the complexity of the song) you're on the secure side. So you always should only trust your own ears (doing ABX test...).


Again. I'd like to hear what James has to say on the encoder that they use in the Mp6/10 as there is no way of doing an ABX test without the original sample from the output of the keyboard. That's really the premise of my argument at this stage. Give me a straight through sample of the output of the piano and i'm happy. Anything else has the potential to have been compromised other than using true lossless compression..!

The Mp6 does sound alright but i'm concerned about the piano sound being a bit toy like. If this is the true representation of the output of the piano then i'm heavily leaning towards the FP7F at this stage.

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 11:45 AM

Nothing is better than performing your own test. You might get an idea of how the MP6 sounds by testing any other Kawai DP that incorporates the PHI sound reproduction (e.g. AFAIK CN33). You should listen using good headphones BTW.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 12:21 PM

My ears are very compromised these days (right one is near useless). Having said that, I can still hear the difference between most mp3s and WAV files. I have to use these all the time in my work. Likewise, I can still hear the difference between most compressed digital piano sounds and those that enjoy minimal compression and more layers. That is why, unless Kawai pulls something out of the hat very soon, they will not be getting my business. And that is a shame as I was rooting for them, and actually wanted to buy from them.

Here's how it stacks up:
MP10 - I really like the sound, and I expect the action is great, but way too heavy for me = NO SALE.
MP6 - Great concept, acceptable weight, looks like a decent action, but compromised piano sounds = NO SALE.

Here's how to put it right:
Give the MP6 the core sounds (where have I heard that before?) of the MP10 - by which I mean UPHI AP and EP sounds. I'd be happy with less selection, providing the main bases of Grand, Rhodes and Wurlitzer were covered, and keep the price under 2k (CP50 is $1699). This MP6EX (thanks to whoever coined that) would then be able to compete more readily against the new Rolands, the Nord, and the Yamaha CP series. What possible reason, other than fear of undermining MP10 sales, could Kawai have for not doing that? And that fear, in my view, is without foundation. How many gigging musicians who are over thirty and don't live in a gym are going to be slinging an MP10 in the back of their car every weekend?

The old MP5 at $1099 US was a good deal at the time. The new MP6 is $1499 at a time when Roland is introducing SN across the range. It is expected they will have an RD-300NX and an FP-4f in the new year, probably at a similar price point. What then will be the attraction of the MP6 beyond its controller functions (and I can get a Casio for $799 to do that)? It seems almost miserly to put a compromised sound engine into a professional machine at a time when the industry is (at last) moving forward, and trying to play catch up with the software vanguard.

I sold my RD and my Electro in anticipation of the MP6, and that's why I'm feeling so disappointed. I know none of us have played one yet (will we ever?), but the difference between the MP6 and MP10 recordings (mp3 or not) is quite clear. The MP10 is professional, the MP6 is not.
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
My ears are very compromised these days (right one is near useless). Having said that, I can still hear the difference between most mp3s and WAV files. I have to use these all the time in my work.


That's a clear downside of MP3 and other lossy formats - it's not optimal for the hearing impaired (or those whose ears are somehow compromised). In these cases often the psychoacoustical methods do not work because masking some sound pieces do not work the same way as with people that don't have any hearing issues.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
I'd like to hear what James has to say on the encoder that they use in the Mp6/10


As stated in the owner's manual, the codec is licensed from Spirit and encodes at 192 kbits fixed.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Rimmer
I'd like to hear what James has to say on the encoder that they use in the Mp6/10


As stated in the owner's manual, the codec is licensed from Spirit and encodes at 192 kbits fixed.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks James. Never heard of them but they seem to have some audio presence on the internet. Apparently they make an Mp3 encoder with a EQ built in.. crazy

If you speak with the tech guys at Kawai and ask for a lossless version of the MP6/10 output, then that would be good. I seriously doubt they wouldn't see the value in sampling the output of both units using a quality A/D and posting it to an Mp3 sceptic. If the units are in the manufacturing stage then hopefully they could find the time. If they believe an Mp3 from a memory stick a suitable representation of the output from the instruments then I'll take it on the chin and make my conclusions from there. I don't want to come across as being an ass. It's a serious request for my own personal reasons.

I think I mentioned before that I am in Qatar working for five weeks (three weeks in..!). I have a bunch of cash put aside for a DP and am in the same situation as number of people are in here (mainly voxpops it would seem who feels much the same as me about the Kawai situation).

Despite the fact that I live in one of the smaller UK cities, there are at least two DP sellers that sell Kawai. When i'm back in the UK I am going to visit them all a few times. I will check the CN33 and all the others suggested. I'll take my mate with me who is a Roland SX owner (who has played the GX and said it's a 'little' bit better but not worth the extra cash..). I'll give a report back when that happens and hopefully get a go on an MP6, if one should turn up for demo duties.. I'm not giving up the thought of buying one until i've tried it. I promise to report what I find here so hopefully it will benefit some of the people that may not have a chance to do that same..

Good headphones will be taken when I go. I know my headphones well so I think I can judge the sound pretty well..!


Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
What then will be the attraction of the MP6 beyond its controller functions (and I can get a Casio for $799 to do that)?

The Casio PX-3 only has two physical zones (albeit 4 logical ones)... that is, the keyboard only supports one split point, whereas the Kawai supports 3 split points, for four physical zones. Also, the Kawai's 4 faders functions as 4 real-time volume controls for the 4-zones, the Casio has no real time zone volume controls. Likewise, the Kawai has quick on-off switches for the 4 zones, and velocity switched zones, the Casio doesn't. Also, the Kawai has a tonewheel organ mode (and a noticeably better, albeit still imperfect, leslie emulation). Kawai also has a mod wheel and expression pedal input, for two MIDI continuous controllers (Casio has none, a bit of a limitation for a MIDI controller). I'd also be willing to bet that the Kawai has a better action and probably better piano and EP sounds than the Casio.

BTW, I noticed Sweetwater now has the MP6 in stock, a bit ahead of schedule (I think they had previously given an estimate of the week of 11/6). Personally, I'm sticking with the PX-3 despite its flaws, because it weighs half as much. I can deal with 23.6 lbs, not with 47.4. (Plus case!) But I admit, the MP6 does make me drool a bit. I wish they had their feature set in a lightweight box, but I guess so much of their reputation is based on their action, and you can't get a really top quality action in something so light weight, so I just think it's something we're unlikely to see. Meanwhile, I'm looking at the Kurzweil SP4, whose feature set is closer to the Kawai than the Casio, but with only 76 semi-weighted keys. They do have an 88 coming out, though.
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 03:29 PM

About the ivory surface. On my CN33 it's very nice, not shiny polished plastic, no signs of wear, and I would hope not after 5 months or so, still clean. I have played the Roland Ivory on a RD700GX in a store - it was disgustingly filthy and the store owners couldn't get it clean. I also played a HP307 with Ivory, looked and felt fine. I think the ACTION comes across as a more important factor in comparing the keyboard differences between the Roland an Kawais rather than the ivory surface feel.
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 04:40 PM

MP10 wow to much to read .. any word when will it come to the states .?? it really looks like its going to have the best touch on
the Dp market out there.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
I have played the Roland Ivory on a RD700GX in a store - it was disgustingly filthy...

Ha! I had the same experience. I was almost afraid to touch it, with all that cootie evidence on display.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:20 PM

MP10 demo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL6VeyvMcB0

Aaron
Posted By: egallego

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie

Thanks for the link, the MP10 looks really good.

Are we sure the MP10 is identical action-wise to the CA93? Or does Kawai ship "portable" version of its actions.

Regards!
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:36 PM

Yes, MP10 is the same as the CA93 and MP6 is the same as the CN33.

Aaron
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 05:36 PM

Too much talking, not enough playing. And that cacophony at the end...just excruciating! Cheesy, sleazy noises. However, the MP10 looks really nice, not what I'd visualised with the way the end cheeks are made and their shape etc, but very nice. Looks like a quality piece of kit throughout.

Steve
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 06:00 PM

The keys on my G8 showed excessive wear after using it for about 1 month. I was not pleased. You think they would put those surfaces through some rigorous testing before release. I hope all is fixed with PHIII.

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
I have played the Roland Ivory on a RD700GX in a store - it was disgustingly filthy...

Ha! I had the same experience. I was almost afraid to touch it, with all that cootie evidence on display.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Deffie


Zum kotzen!
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Originally Posted by Deffie


Zum kotzen!


I don't know if I'd go that far, but I would agree that was a pretty poor demo. He really should have stopped talking and just demo'd the sounds (and what's with mentioning the amp sim and not even letting us hear the differences).

I'm still looking forward to trying one, but not because of this video.

Aaron
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 10:06 PM

Hi Guys

I have been enjoying your posts over the last several weeks. I went ahead and Ordered a Kawai MP6 on line since I could not get one to test. I was able to listen and play a CA93 so I am familier with the sounds from the MP10 so to speak. I just got word they are shipping the MP6. I plan to review it and get back to you all with my thoughts. I have been playing for about 35 years. but I started getting back to playing seriously in the last 5 years. So I already have a Kawai ES4, Moog Synth, 1973 Fender Rhodes 88 Mk1 , and a Baldwin 243. The MP6 will be a gigging and practice board for me at my house. I will use the ES4 at the office for "practice Breaks".

So next week I should have the MP6 in my fingers and be able to give you all a review.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/27/10 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
Hi Guys

I have been enjoying your posts over the last several weeks. I went ahead and Ordered a Kawai MP6 on line since I could not get one to test. I was able to listen and play a CA93 so I am familier with the sounds from the MP10 so to speak. I just got word they are shipping the MP6. I plan to review it and get back to you all with my thoughts. I have been playing for about 35 years. but I started getting back to playing seriously in the last 5 years. So I already have a Kawai ES4, Moog Synth, 1973 Fender Rhodes 88 Mk1 , and a Baldwin 243. The MP6 will be a gigging and practice board for me at my house. I will use the ES4 at the office for "practice Breaks".

So next week I should have the MP6 in my fingers and be able to give you all a review.

FrankDaddy, I hope you find the MP6 more than twice as good as the mp3s! Actually, I hope you prove my skepticism to be completely unfounded - at which point I will eat my words and buy one.

What I would really like to know about is the dynamic range and whether it feels "organic." When you play ppp, does the MP6 respond with a softer, more muted timbre, or does the volume just decrease from p? Can you really dig in to the EPs and imagine you're playing your Mk1? What are the synth and organ sounds really like?

Good luck and thanks for being our guinea pig!

Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:02 AM

wow it looks and sounds wonderfull ithink it won over the Rd700nx for me
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:03 AM

actually it does not sound all that wonderfull sound very standar, but looks really great .
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:06 AM

too much taking!!!!!
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:09 AM

DATOS SOBRE LA EMPRESA Y SU operación
Posted By: chick corea

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:10 AM

http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Kawai-MP10-Professional-Stage-Piano?sku=H66083


Kawai MP10 Professional Stage Piano
$2,499.00


Now , i think its going to be a easy choice bweten the RD700nx and this one for a stage piano
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy

So next week I should have the MP6 in my fingers and be able to give you all a review.


Hooray. shocked From an existing Kawai owner who can actually play as well..!

I personally really look forward to your review..

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 04:24 AM

James: I hear what sounds like harsh clipping in the Tine EP 1 demo, at time 26s. (just a very brief clip)

Greg.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 04:40 AM

I only hear the "chuff" artifact (if it is an artifact) in the acoustic pianos.

Another thing though: I hear some background hiss. I've played a soundfile that contains only silence, on the same system, and I do not hear any hiss, so the hiss is definitely in those demo recordings.

Greg.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Originally Posted by Deffie


Zum kotzen!


I had to go to a translation website to figure that one out but i'd have to agree...!

That was (and i've said similar regarding the Roland FP7f video) a sack of pooh. Kawai 'Europe' releases their only video of their flagship digital piano and chooses German as the default language. Genius...

Not only that, they disable comments on the video by default (not what Youtube is supposed to be all about...). Then the German chap (who can sort of play, but no better than any old keyboard player you've stumbled across in life) rattles over the whole video whilst showing detailed video of the fact the unit has midi ports. Unbelievable. I think the USB port was mentioned at least twice (of course that's all we're interested in). Talk about being out of touch with your customers..

I'm not only bashing Kawai for this. The Roland FP7f vid was as bad from a true 'information' providing point of view but at least it was a little more entertaining. I felt I got nothing out of this. If anything, it's put me right off the company altogether at the moment..

Give me a piano piece recorded properly and played by a high quality pianist. Give me an EP piece played by a funky keyboard dude. Give me a piece of paper with the connections written on it.

I remember when Native Instruments Absynth was released. They had demos on their website made by people that have been left to play with it. You could submit your own. That was a sensible idea of the highest proportions. These cheese videos show us nothing at all and the sooner they realise that, the sooner people will be able to at least try and make a reasonable judgement (in the absence of the opportunity to actually play one) on how it sounds in the real world..

Oh. And that piece at the end was horrible. They have no idea whatsoever..
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 05:20 AM

Hmmm...perhaps I ought to invest in a video camera?

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Well, I believe I've been around on this forum long enough to know what you folks want to hear, so we'll see. wink It wouldn't be anything official though, more of a personal project.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hmmm...perhaps I ought to invest in a video camera?

Cheers,
James
x


That would be a good start. At least it would a real person giving a real demo of the sounds...!!

Would you have the authority to do that? That said, the boards will be out soon (or now by the sounds of the Mp6) so we might get some filter down from the early adopters..

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by JFP

I assume we agree that the old (!) mp3 format is not suitable for judging the quality of piano recordings. (As a former audio engineer I know it's definitely not for many reasons). I hope we will see some uncompressed samples on the web soon (Kawai - please, storage and download speed are not really the reason for not supplying some high res files these days; it's almost 2011).

Would be nice if all instrument makes would post HQ sample material to give the potential customers a good impression of the quality of the sounds, instead of this old fashioned low grade MP3 stuff. The sound is what mostly sells these instruments after all , so put you're best effort in trying to convince the customer.


This is slightly offtopic, and sorry to reopen this matter again, but I would like to get your feedback. I have recorded some CA63 (in this regard we're back on topic because CA63 should sound identical or at least very similar to MP10) Concert Grand pling pling (playing) using line-out with my Zoom H1 with highest possible recording settings (24bit, 96khz) along with a compressed version of the same recording using 256kbit CBR MP3. See the attached link. I would really like to know if you can hear any differences:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...udio%20interface%20-%20.html#Post1544857
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hmmm...perhaps I ought to invest in a video camera?

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Well, I believe I've been around on this forum long enough to know what you folks want to hear, so we'll see. wink It wouldn't be anything official though, more of a personal project.


Yes, absolutely. And not being official will probably make it a much better demo at that.

Aaron
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 08:53 PM

So...can anyone at this stage state if the "ziff" noise at the attacks of the acoustic piano notes are an anomaly of the demo-files, or are in the actual piano sound of the MP10 itself ? I can hardly believe the latter, because that would render the piano-sound unusable (at least to me). I sort of answered the question here myself, but want to be sure...;-)

I anyone has any comments on my previous questions about the difference in ivory touch surface quality between Roland and Kawai and if the MP6 also has a limited pedal resolution (like the CA-13), that would be welcome information....
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 09:02 PM

$ 2499 for the MP10, that would translate to a bottom price of about € 2249 here in Europe if I'm correct. (Not in exact exchange rate but based on the difference in price between the MP6 in US $ and Euro's).

Or perhaps a bit higher to equal the price of the RD700NX, which wouldn't make sense to me, but hey...it's marketing guy who's doing the calculations. Same guy who cut the UHPI from the MP6 probably, so you can expect anything ;-)

Curious when official pricing will be available over here...
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/28/10 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by mucci
Originally Posted by JFP

I assume we agree that the old (!) mp3 format is not suitable for judging the quality of piano recordings. (As a former audio engineer I know it's definitely not for many reasons). I hope we will see some uncompressed samples on the web soon (Kawai - please, storage and download speed are not really the reason for not supplying some high res files these days; it's almost 2011).

Would be nice if all instrument makes would post HQ sample material to give the potential customers a good impression of the quality of the sounds, instead of this old fashioned low grade MP3 stuff. The sound is what mostly sells these instruments after all , so put you're best effort in trying to convince the customer.


This is slightly offtopic, and sorry to reopen this matter again, but I would like to get your feedback. I have recorded some CA63 (in this regard we're back on topic because CA63 should sound identical or at least very similar to MP10) Concert Grand pling pling (playing) using line-out with my Zoom H1 with highest possible recording settings (24bit, 96khz) along with a compressed version of the same recording using 256kbit CBR MP3. See the attached link. I would really like to know if you can hear any differences:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...udio%20interface%20-%20.html#Post1544857

Yes, the quality of both samples was excellent. But what impressed me more was the tonal quality of the CA63. That is the AP sound that I want to create on stage - a lot of our repertoire is quite subtle when it comes to AP.

Every time I hear UPHI, it depresses me that unless I can afford to hire a couple of roadies, I can't have it. PHI, HI and any other LO-PHI should be consigned to the trash can of history!
Posted By: hannibal2

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 09:22 AM

Hello Voxpops

I'm considering the CN33 or the new MP6, both utilises the Progressive Harmonic Imaging engine. You are praising the UPHI version, what are the main differences between the two based on your experience? It is some sort of SuperNatural (Roland) kind of hybrid sample/modelling solution or alike? Apart from being a solution of having more degrees of freedom (piano designer function), what is the actual difference, what do you think/hear?

Yesterday I tested the Roland RP201 and F110, sound-wise I was suprised how inhomogeneous was the the piano tune. It was inconsistent both "vertically" and "horizontally" by that I mean: velocity switching was extremly audible and obvious, plus there was a huge difference in timbre between velocities for keys say F3,F#3, just an example. I think the mezzoforte sample for those (and several others) were somewhat dirty/poisoned with metallic timbre sound components, but only for the mforte velocity sample-component. When I move upwards to forte or fff, the next velocity sample was again inline with the expected timbre dynamics (w/o metallic overtones). It was clearly some sort of sampling error or some error in the original sample. Found several sections/keys as well with the same problem.
Apart from the velocity inhomogenity (timbre change in an inconsistent and would say "bad" way) there are the stretched notes issue as well both on the RP201 and F110.
Sample switching at approx 3-4 notes (not tested so deeply tough) but was clearly audible as you scale from C0 to C5 for ex at mezzo-mezzopiano for example.

All in all: when I use harsh words like "obvious stretching" and "obvious velocity switching" and "both vertical (0-127) and horizontal (~C0-~C6) inhomogenity", I mean "audible artifacts" which I have spotted when playing an acual piece. It was far from being a scientifical test with spectrographs and oscilloscopes, nor computer used at all. It was purely audible at when playing a medicore, simple cover piece on piano using a medium category headphone (7 year old Sennheiser HD497)

Back to Kawai and back to my original question regarding PHI and UPHI: when played the CN33, I was not aware of nor horizontal nor vertical inconsistencies. velocity switching was inaudible, smart nicely blended samples both horizontally (C0-C6) and vertically (ppp-fff: midi vel 0-127).

I think this is really something in the Kawai engine. (sort of supernatural-like modelling in decays maybe?)

What do you think ybout UPHI vs PHI or xHI in general?

Cheers
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 11:10 AM

Oh my...€ 2059 at the MusicSTore, that's less than I expected. The problem is, that makes me doubt very much again; should I break my back or not and order the mp10 ?!
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
Oh my...€ 2059 at the MusicSTore, that's less than I expected. The problem is, that makes me doubt very much again; should I break my back or not and order the mp10 ?!

Then perhaps you have a little cash left to acquire something like this:
http://www.musicworldbrilon.de/Tast...lleys/Gewa-Keyboardtrolly-150--8662.html
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 12:11 PM

Looks nice, thanks.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by hannibal2
Hello Voxpops

I'm considering the CN33 or the new MP6, both utilises the Progressive Harmonic Imaging engine. You are praising the UPHI version, what are the main differences between the two based on your experience? It is some sort of SuperNatural (Roland) kind of hybrid sample/modelling solution or alike? Apart from being a solution of having more degrees of freedom (piano designer function), what is the actual difference, what do you think/hear?

hannibal2, you really should address this question to kawaijames. In the last few years I have had virtually no direct experience of Kawai DPs. However, I have been listening very carefully to the samples available of PHI and UPHI over the past weeks, and I have come to the conclusion that UPHI is clearly superior, and begs the question as to why PHI should exist at all.

UPHI seems to have considerably more sound definition, appears to employ a greater number of sample layers, and has a more natural-sounding decay/loop signature. To my ears, it sounds very close to a real piano. I have not been able to check it against Roland's SuperNATURAL engine, but I believe it will probably give it a run for its money.

As far as I'm aware, (and stand to be corrected) the variants of Harmonic Imaging do not use modeling as such, but do blend velocity layers very smoothly. James has pointed out that PHI is a "condensed" version. It has a fraction of UPHI's memory and so is compromised in terms of detail. I thought the MP6 demos revealed static-sounding decay/looping (lacking the natural beating and fluctuations of a real piano), inadequate timbre change for pianissimo playing, and slightly unnatural upper-mids. BUT, I am only going off mp3 demos - without direct experience it is impossible to speak definitively. The difficulty of finding a Kawai to audition is a real issue for most potential purchasers.

You mention Roland's shortcomings, but I don't believe the models you played use the new SuperNATURAL engine. In the last few months Roland has been rolling out SN across a large part of its range, and the reports are extremely favorable. My argument is that Kawai should do the same with UPHI. Why equip their only truly portable "professional" stage piano with an inferior sound engine at a time when Roland is putting SN in both the RD-700NX and the FP-7f? UPHI would have allowed Kawai to compete agressively in the stage piano market. Instead, buyers like me who want the best possible sound from their stage piano but cannot manage 70lbs plus for gigging are left with little alternative to Roland.

I have gone on ad nauseam about this in the last few weeks, but only because this kind of nonsensical marketing tactic drives me to despair. I may be proven wrong about PHI and the MP6, in which case I shall rejoice and promptly buy one. However, UPHI is clearly better (otherwise why develop it?), and I shall always know that I cannot play with the full range of expression and tonal subtlety that would have been available to me if Kawai had offered me the chance.
Posted By: Csillag

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Instead, buyers like me who want the best possible sound from their stage piano but cannot manage 70lbs plus for gigging are left with little alternative to Roland.


Voxpops, I understand your frustration, but I must point out that you _can_ get out whatever sound you may want from the MP6 - if you are willing to use a software piano. I have read reports that even a really small, light and inexpensive asus eeepc is able to run Pianoteq fairly well.

Csillag
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 04:44 PM

Csillag, I already have Pianoteq Play on my little Dell Netbook - and it works very well. VB3 is also on there - fabulous virtual B3! I could run that on a used MP5 for about half the cost of a new MP6. However, there is no way I'm going to use that setup on a gig - just too many possible points of failure. No, I'm one of those dinosaurs who wants/needs a hardware solution, and is no longer willing to compromise on sound, given that very good technology is becoming available now. And I don't mind paying for it...

I am teetering on the brink of getting the Nord Piano - fully updateable and a sensible weight. I gather a Bosendorfer grand is on its way for that. But from what I've heard so far, I think the MP10's EPs may actually be better than the Nord's. Again, just one more little frustration. I feel a bit like a spoiled child stamping it's foot at not getting it's own way - but on the other hand, like Dewster, I think you have to be a squeaky wheel otherwise nothing changes.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Csillag, I already have Pianoteq Play on my little Dell Netbook - and it works very well. VB3 is also on there - fabulous virtual B3! I could run that on a used MP5 for about half the cost of a new MP6. However, there is no way I'm going to use that setup on a gig - just too many possible points of failure.


While it's true that you're introducing additional possible points of failure, at least you would have the MP5 (or MP6) internal sounds as a backup, which should at least let you get through a gig okay in the event that your preferred sound source fails, which presumably would be rarely.

Also, if Pianoteq Play runs on a V-Machine, that would presumably be a bit safer than the netbook... physical design less likely to be prone to being knocked over or otherwise inappropriately handled; more solid audio connectors, less likely to pull out or break; probably more stable from a software perspective (not Windows, and dedicated so it's not trying to do other things at the same time, something it can be very difficult to convince Windows to stop doing); and if it dropped, a more road-worthy casing, without a hard drive or laptop style screen, so probably more likely to survive the fall and keep on going.

Arguably, an MP6 + a V-Machine with Pianoteq could be superior to a theoretical MP6 with UPHI piano, even if it existed.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Arguably, an MP6 + a V-Machine with Pianoteq could be superior to a theoretical MP6 with UPHI piano, even if it existed.

Sad, isn't it, that that might be true.

You mentioned V-machine in your post - seems like a great concept hampered by poor implementation. I've been following the posts on the SM Pro Audio forum, and there are a lot of very frustrated owners. I've also been waiting for the new Musebox to arrive (supposed to be here in the summer, but it's gone deathly quiet since then...)

No, since I already use a Plugiator for synth and some organ sounds, I really don't want any more add-on boxes. I might even get one of the new lightweight Kurzweil SP4-7's to cover those bases. I'm determined to find the best, portable piano out there - one that I can turn on and play, and not feel I'm hampered by poor or unresponsive action, or by uninspiring sounds.

On paper, the MP6 was going to be it, but somebody is going to have to really convince me that it's not just another repackaging of sound technology that's already been superseded.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 06:01 PM

For everyone interested ; the MP6 is now in stock at the big stores in Europe and if some are willing to take the lead (and the risks) we might see some user reports trickling in quite soon.

Can't wait ;-)
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
You mentioned V-machine in your post - seems like a great concept hampered by poor implementation. I've been following the posts on the SM Pro Audio forum, and there are a lot of very frustrated owners. I've also been waiting for the new Musebox to arrive (supposed to be here in the summer, but it's gone deathly quiet since then...)

No, since I already use a Plugiator for synth and some organ sounds, I really don't want any more add-on boxes. I might even get one of the new lightweight Kurzweil SP4-7's to cover those bases. I'm determined to find the best, portable piano out there - one that I can turn on and play, and not feel I'm hampered by poor or unresponsive action, or by uninspiring sounds.


You're right about the V-Machine having its problems, but if you only need it to do one thing, and it does that one thing, you might be okay. It also has the virtue of being small and light enough that you could probably velcro it to an MP-5/MP-6 (or SP4 for that matter), leave it permanently attached and wired up, and have it "disappear" into the setup enough to not feel like "yet another add on box" and you could pretty much forget it's there. (It's definitely much smaller than the Plugiator!)

I'm very curious to feel the SP4-7 action, but they will be coming out with an SP4-8 with a true weighted action too.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
For everyone interested ; the MP6 is now in stock at the big stores in Europe and if some are willing to take the lead (and the risks) we might see some user reports trickling in quite soon.

Can't wait ;-)


See Frankdaddy's post late on during the previous page...!
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/29/10 11:25 PM

According to UPS the MP6 should be in my hot little hands by next Wednesday or so. I will give a quick report back as soon as I can.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/30/10 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
According to UPS the MP6 should be in my hot little hands by next Wednesday or so. I will give a quick report back as soon as I can.


Very much looking forward to that. I'm sure it's a great keyboard!!
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/30/10 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
You're right about the V-Machine having its problems, but if you only need it to do one thing, and it does that one thing, you might be okay. It also has the virtue of being small and light enough that you could probably velcro it to an MP-5/MP-6 (or SP4 for that matter), leave it permanently attached and wired up, and have it "disappear" into the setup enough to not feel like "yet another add on box" and you could pretty much forget it's there.

You'd need the still unavailable processor upgrade (price?) for the V-Machine to run the latest version of Pianoteq successfully. On stage you could indeed forget it's there, in the studio you would keep hearing that annoying high-pitched fan noise. sick
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/31/10 12:02 PM

High Quality Sound demo's: please - I don't want to re-open this whole MP3 v.s. FLAC/AIFF/WAV discussion again !

I'm only very much interested in some additional sound demo's of the piano sounds of the MP10 (and perhaps MP6). In HQ format (not MP3). I'm nearing my decision and listened again to the material that is available on the Kawai website. I really hear this ziff noise all the time in the mid registers , especially at FF levels. As if the key is pushed through some sort of felt material before it hits the snare. Listen carefully at F to FF passages in the mid registers at the beginning (transients) of the notes. You really can't miss it. If this is part of the sampled piano sound of the Kawai, then it's NOT for me. I'm completely annoyed by it in the sound demo's already, apart from playing the machine myself each day.

I really hope when someone records the actual HQ outputs of the instrument with a good AD converter and puts it in non-compressed format on the web, that this noise is gone and that it's not a flaw in the recorded sample material in the sound engine. Especially some loud passages in the mid and mid-high registers.

Thanks, J
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/31/10 07:56 PM

Yes. The notes sort of sound like they are being sucked out of a straw to me. wink

Greg.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 10/31/10 10:02 PM

IIRC, some of the first Roland SN piano videos I watched had a strange chuffing sound. It was quite distressing to think that it might be in the DP, when in reality it was just overcompressed audio. Are all A/V publicity types deaf?

Originally Posted by voxpops
I think you have to be a squeaky wheel otherwise nothing changes.

SQUEAK!!
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/01/10 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by dewster
Are all A/V publicity types deaf?

Chances are they outsourced the job to some other firm is quite high. And those people probably never played a piano in their life. Ok, perhaps a little harch but I've been working in that business for a couple of years. To make the cut you take on the most odd... jobs...
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/01/10 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by FredFabulous
Originally Posted by dewster
Are all A/V publicity types deaf?

Chances are they outsourced the job to some other firm is quite high. And those people probably never played a piano in their life. Ok, perhaps a little harch but I've been working in that business for a couple of years. To make the cut you take on the most odd... jobs...


It's not harsh at all. Marketing people don't care at all whether the product is any good or not. Their job is make it look good and increase the sales. If someone is confused in to buying something that don't want or can afford, it's job done for them.

That's the main reason I want a genuine sales person selling me something, if I have to put up with one at all. I want honest advice, good information of the type i'd expect or nothing at all..
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 09:15 AM

Back to my "ziff noise" issue ;-) I thought I should compare the sound demo's from Ca63/93 back and forth with the MP10 demo's. First thing I noticed is that the MP10 sounded better to my ears ! A more full and rounded piano sound, when the CA63 could be quite 'thin' in some passages. I liked the overall sound better of the MP10, although there are probably not such huge technical differences, the changes that Kawai made have worked out very well.

But....I didn't notice this 'ziff' sound on the mid-ff tone on the CA series. When I switched back to the MP10 demo, I immediately heard these annoying noises at the transients again. Please let it not be part of the new sound, but a recording artifact. Any HQ direct recorded examples would prove if it are these particular demo's or....

Anyone ? (James any ideas about this issue ?)
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Back to my "ziff noise" issue ;-) I thought I should compare the sound demo's from Ca63/93 back and forth with the MP10 demo's. First thing I noticed is that the MP10 sounded better to my ears ! A more full and rounded piano sound, when the CA63 could be quite 'thin' in some passages. I liked the overall sound better of the MP10, although there are probably not such huge technical differences, the changes that Kawai made have worked out very well.

I agree with regard to the very pleasing sound of the MP10. I also like the sound of the CA63/93 - I think they actually sound a little more "organic" than the equivalent SN Rolands, although the Roland has a slightly more defined and clear sound to my ears. I haven't had enough exposure to hear whether the looping of the Kawai samples will be noticeable in normal playing.

There seems to be quite a jump from CA13 to CA63/93 in terms of sound detail and dynamic range, but I've only had youtube quality to go on.
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I also like the sound of the CA63/93 - I think they actually sound a little more "organic" than the equivalent SN Rolands, although the Roland has a slightly more defined and clear sound to my ears.

You are talking of the CA63/93 in single voice mode with the standard factory piano settings, right? In that case your description may be quite accurate (using high-end headphones).
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 04:19 PM

So, does anyone know of a store that is/will carry these? I know Sam Ash used to with the MP5/MP8II but they don't have the MP6 or MP10 currently listed.

Aaron
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 04:54 PM

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Kawai

They do have a store, but Indiana is a little far-off for me.

You might contact your local Kawai piano store and ask; they would probably at least know, if they don't carry the line themselves (although my local store did).

You can also probably find out through the http://kawaius.com/ website.

Meanwhile, I can still bask for a few final moments of owning 'today's technology today.' Once the first few units are delivered and the reports start coming in, well, that's that.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/02/10 05:19 PM

Indiana's a bit too far for me as well.

Once they start showing up in stores I'll have to check with my local (well, hour and a half away) dealer; last time I was there they didn't have any of the previous stage pianos but wouldn't hurt to check.

I've also emailed Sam Ash to see if they do intend to carry these in stores, I'll post here when I get a response.

Aaron
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/03/10 02:37 AM

JFP, with regards to your damper pedal query, I can tell you that all the MPs respond to 24 levels/steps.

By the way, there is additional MP10/MP6 content at the KawaiUS.com site.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: KHen

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/03/10 03:49 AM

I really enjoyed the audio samples of the MP10 on the KawaiUS website and am looking forward to the reviews we will get on it in the coming months.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/03/10 04:08 AM

Geeze that's a awful website that Kawaius ....whoever did that has no idea.
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 04:54 PM

All

I just got an MP6 delivered by UPS. As soon as I get off work I will hook it up.

Kinda Feels like Christmas.

BTW I paid $1499.00 at Musicians Friend.com.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
All

I just got an MP6 delivered by UPS. As soon as I get off work I will hook it up.

Kinda Feels like Christmas.

BTW I paid $1499.00 at Musicians Friend.com.


Awesome, looking forward to your impressions. Also, any audio or video clips you can post would be greatly appreciated.

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 05:17 PM

Merry Christmas, FrankDaddy! I hope it turns out to be a really memorable one.

Please post your thoughts as soon as you can. I'm so hoping that my reservations about the MP6's sound engine are misplaced. Please could you comment specifically on the following?
1. Dynamic range and timbre variation both in APs and EPs.
2. Phasing of AP bass chords/octaves (that issue has been raised in respect of another Kawai model, and I think you can hear it on the German MP6 demo video when the bass octaves are sustained).
3. Length and realism of AP attack/decay samples.
4. "Realism" of AP sounds in general
5. Looping, and whether it sounds static or natural.
6. Action feel, and its connection with the sound engine.
7. EP "bark" and "bite".
8. Tonewheel organ authenticity.
9. Overall playability and sense of satisfaction when playing.

I hope you've plenty of time to play with your new toy!!!
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 06:02 PM

Just heard back confirming that Sam Ash will be carrying the MP6 and MP10 (they are apparently on order).

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 06:11 PM

Sweetwater and Kraft are also stocking up. However, Sweetwater has removed "free shipping" from the MP6 for some reason. Pay an extra dollar ninety-nine and Kraft will include shipping and a bundle of accessories with their Key Essentials package.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 06:20 PM

I'm down to my final three choices for lightweight stage piano:
Kawai MP6
Korg SV-1
Nord NP88

I reluctantly removed the FP-7f from consideration as it tips the 50lbs barrier. No RD-300NX yet - darn!

The Kawai is the heaviest of the bunch but does include more programmability. I'm waiting for feedback from new owners before deciding whether to keep it in contention. The SV-1 is raw (in a good way) but a little difficult to reign in on the fly, apparently. There have been reports of key noise problems with the SV-1. The Nord is more expensive but sounds more authentic in certain respects. Not sure about the Nord's action, and no organs means adding another box or board.

I'm sick of going round and round in the limbo of indecision!
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 07:25 PM

.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
VP, I'll just throw in the fact the new APs from the soundpack 2 on the Korg really turn the SV-1 into a different instrument from the original, at least from my point of view. The Piano 2A might not be the "best" sample out there but I really like the color of it and the way it feels playing it. I haven't used the new "Soundpack 2" sounds with a band or live yet to say for sure, but I have this gut feeling that they would work very nicely.

Don't know much about the Kawai except the online AP demos sounded very good I thought. I would question the "other sounds" though.

The NP is very nice as I've stated in other threads, but it's more an instrument that has its own character, to me much different then your typical stage piano from Roland, Yamaha, etc. If it were me, I would really try to play one to see if it agrees with you before pulling the trigger.

I've thought about re-buying the SV-1 myself but like you, I'm a little bothered by these keybed issues that are popping up on the Korg forum. The SV-1 I had for about a month in the summer showed no signs of this however. I think the Korg has a superior piano playing feel/action to the NP.

There, now does that help or confuse you even more ? laugh
Seriously, I feel your indecision, I'm in a constant state of ambivalence myself. smile

Thanks for your thoughts, Dave. I don't think I can be any more confused, so it helps!

I've already downloaded Soundpack 2, just in case I pull the trigger on the Korg! The lack of true splits on the Korg is a small negative, but I like the fact that they're listening to players and bringing out meaningful updates. There are a few good deals to be had on the board at the moment.

Even without playing the NP, I'm feeling myself holding back. Initially, I found the V5 pianos on the Electro 3 quite compelling, but I felt no regret at selling the NE3. Admittedly, a lot had to do with the fact that the Electro's action was not good enough for its vastly improved APs, but also that I never really warmed to its overall sound spectrum. In the end I'm wondering whether merely being a faithful clone is enough, and that maybe an instrument should have its own clearly defined character. I sense that the SV-1 may have that...

The MP6 seems to be more of a "traditional" stage piano/controller with its GM-type soundpack plus some well defined APs and EPs. Nothing wrong with that, but it will have to impress me with its implementation. For example, are the tonewheel organs and rotary sim better than the Korg's rather lackluster offering in that department? Is the lack of UPHI a noticeable hindrance or more of a theoretical distraction? We shall see. The real attraction is the possibility that the MP6's action is the best in a lightweight stage piano yet.

With gigs lined up, I'm chomping at the bit here. My trusty GEM is fine, but I'd like a faster action, even better APs, and usable organs without having to add-on.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 08:08 PM

Are you sure to rule out the FP7F ? It hasn't been delivered yet, so it would be a shame if it gets rave reviews when available and you just dumped it because of 1 or 2 KG...(I also think it's very compact ; looks smaller in real life than the impression you get from the websites).

Just a thought.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
Are you sure to rule out the FP7F ? It hasn't been delivered yet, so it would be a shame if it gets rave reviews when available and you just dumped it because of 1 or 2 KG...(I also think it's very compact ; looks smaller in real life than the impression you get from the websites).

Just a thought.

I have a feeling the FP-7f's APs will knock everything else in the price range into a cocked hat (strange expression, that confused). However, I have never been sold on Roland's EPs (SN or not). I almost viscerally disliked the ones in the RD-300SX and I'm not convinced that the FP-7f's are going to be any better. EPs are a big part of what I do (equal with APs), so they have to be good and likable! I very much enjoy the EPs in my GEM, and want to be inspired by the sounds in my new rig, too. I listened carefully to the MP6, and it's difficult to tell from the demos whether the EPs will be truly inspiring, but so far they sound OK.

I have considered the FP-7f just for home, but that's a significant added cost!!!
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/04/10 10:27 PM

OK, didn't know you we're primarily looking for good EP's as well; thought it was all about the acoustic piano ;-)
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 04:40 AM

Hi guys

I have spent about 2 hours with the MP6 and I feel that I have not even scratch the surface.

Here is what I needed.

Only use one keyboard for gigging
A good AP
A good Clone Wheel Organ
A good Rhodes, Wurly, and Clavinet
Splits/Layering
Good MIDI worstation/Controller
Do not have to hook it up to a computer to tweak
Strong keyboard ( Not Necessary that be wood.)
Portable.
88 keys

Be able to use for small clubs and background keyboard work.

Here is what I can say about the MP6

Excellent Pianos. I can play Chopin, Bach to Jim Brickman and it sounds excellent.
Rhodes. I have a 1973 Rhodes 88 key. So the bar is set high. I am pleased with the sound of the Rhodes out of the box. I started tweaking it and have it sounding like my Rhodes run through a Fender Twin Rev. It barks nicely.
Clavinet - pretty strong and I have yet to tweak it.
Clone Wheel - The drawbars work great on the sound. I will setup my favorites as setups. It is not something you do on the fly. I have yet to run it through the amp or overdrive it.
Pads - More Pads than you could possible use. Some Excellent some ok.
Splits/Layering - Easy to do
Tweaking is very easy. No computer needed.
The keyboard feel is wonderfull. The Ivory Touch does fell great under my fingers.
The Weighting is nice. It feels like an acoustic piano.
the countrols work well on the fly except the organ.
It has a built in music stand. Some DPs do not.

What I do not like

The setup to adjust the drawbars. It works but you better setup your registratons in advance. doing it on the fly does not work well.

The Rotary effect has only one horn. Still it sounds great.

The usb plug for the thumbdrive is in the back. I would have preferred it on the front.

You cannot save the rythym tracks with your setup. so you have to setup your sound, meter and tempo each time.

So far I like what I see. I have 45 days to make up my mind. I like it better than the Korg SV1 feature set. The Korg SV-1 is a nice instrument but this is about $700 US cheaper than the KORG and there is a bigger feature set on the Kawai. I am going back to compare the sound to a Yamaha CP1, 5 and 50 this weekend. The Roland pianos, to me, sounds fine, I just prefer the piano sound on the Kawai DPs. The keyboard is better on the Kawai also IMHO.

I do see a difference between UPHI and PHI. Althought I do see a difference between my ES4 and the MP6. So the differences are there. But the MP6 meets my requieremnts and the sound is fantastic. I cannot justify (or my wife will not let me smile ) spend the $1000 US dollars for the incremental increase in sound quality and lose some of the sounds that I need to gig with.

So the keyboards I have been looking at were:

Yamaha CP1,5 and 50
Roland
Korg SV1
Kawai MP6 and MP10

they are all fine instruments. It jsut depends on what is important to you. You really cannot go wrong with any of them

So what I see is a keyboard that fits the bill so far... more to come...


Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 05:47 AM

.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy

I do see a difference between UPHI and PHI. Althought I do see a difference between my ES4 and the MP6. So the differences are there.


Hi. Thanks for the review so far. You know you're going to get asked a lot about the Mp6 as there are many here that are interested in the machine. I'll start.. !!

What do you mean by the above quote from your message? I think you may have got your do's and don'ts mixed up.. whome

If there is any chance you can do an audio demo of it, that would be great!!! There is so little on the internet, other than Kawai's own efforts, so it would be fantastic to hear something recorded by a user.. I'm especially interested in the pianos but i'm also very interested in the general sound set as well.

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 12:15 PM

Very good to hear that Sam Ash will be carrying these Kawai pianos.

Looking forward to the more detailed review of the acoustic pianos.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
What I do not like

The setup to adjust the drawbars. It works but you better setup your registratons in advance. doing it on the fly does not work well.

The Rotary effect has only one horn. Still it sounds great.


Yes, the lack of real-time organ control is a shame, and as has been mentioned, you can't even get around it by adding a BCF2000 or other fader-based MIDI control surface. Something else I just realized is that, not only can you not adjust drawbars on the fly, you also can't even easily turn percussion on and off, even that is menu based.

It's nice that you can set up any organ registrations you want as presets, it's certainly a great feature that most stage pianos don't let you do with their organ patches, but it's a little frustrating to get 95% of the way toward having a completely functional clonewheel in there, and then just fall a little short. I can understand they had certain limitations in what they could do in terms of front panel control capability without a much bigger redesign from the MP5 base, but not even allowing those parameters to be accessed via MIDI seems like a real oversight.

As for the rotary effect, I don't think you mean one horn (Leslies only have one horn), but rather that the horn and bass driver don't speed up and slow down independently. At least that can be solved with an external box (certainly a Ventilator, but cheaper rotary simulators have this effect as well), and it looks like you can pan sounds, so you could pan all your organs to Left and all your other sounds to Right so, with some effort, you could run organ sounds through an external Leslie processor separately from all your other sounds even when you're combining organ and other sounds in splits/layers. Though again, in terms of getting the organ 95% toward what it could be, it's a shame that that much more of the Leslie effect wasn't programmed in... I don't think there's been anything with any kind of drawbar functionality that lacked this part of the characteristic sound since the 1970s. But maybe it just required more DSP than the unit has.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 02:33 PM

Thanks for taking the time out from playing your new MP6 to let us have your initial thoughts, FrankDaddy.

Trying to read between the lines a little, I get the impression that you're pleased with the MP6 but not bowled over - it wasn't quite enough for you to throw away the other brochures. Would you think it's fair to class the MP6 as a good workhorse but not a thoroughbred filly?
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 04:22 PM

VoxPops

thanks for the question. I can say it is definitly at least an excellent workhorse. But there may be a little thoroughbred filly there too. I hope my response will clarify my initial thoughts.

I have played several great pianos in my life. The DPs are trying to imitate something that is still elusive; the very complex sound of a piano. Also I am very conservative when I give my opinion. I do not want to accidently mislead someone. I am going to upgrade my headphones and my speaker system on my way home. Part of the problem is that my headphones were having trouble with the complex piano signal. they are older Bose sound isolating headphones. They are not "Flat". So i am picking up some "flat" response headphones and picking up a 200W Klipsch 2.1 speaker system. that will give me a better feel for how they sound. For gigging I use a Peavey KB 4 and it sounds less than Ideal. That is going to be upgraded. So to be fair I am running my tests back through newer speakers and headphones. By the way the sound difference between the ES4 and the MP6 is highly substantial. And I really like the ES4. The MP6 is built rather well and it looks great. I forgot to mention that the controls work well live with the exception of the drawbars. For $1500 US this keyboard is a bargain.

And again I have not spent the time tweaking the system. There is a lot to tweak.

More to Come....
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 04:43 PM

That is what happens when you try to post after a long day! I do see a difference between my es4 (harmonic imaging) versus my MP6 (Prgressive Harmonic Imaging.) I did listen to a Kawai Console with UPHI which is what the MP10 has. The sound is a little more complex on the MP10/CA93. I will do a demo in the next few days and post them online. I am still trying to get my hands around the nuances of the keyboard.

I hope this helps!
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 04:53 PM

You are correct. What I was saying that in a Leslie 145/147 (which I owned years ago) there is a horn rotary speaker and a woofer rotary (really a baffle over a stationary woofer) when the speed changes the two accelerate/deccelerate at different speeds and give a nice "wobble" to the sound. I liked your Idea about the pan feature. the Organ sounds are really good. I just like to play with the drawbars while I am playing. But this is a Swiss Army knife kind of instrument. It does a lot of things very well but not as well as a dedicated Clonewheel organ. But it does not cost a lot either. I was surprised how well the keyboard works for an organ. Although I am tempted to try an unweighted keyboard and MIDI it witht he MP6. It did glissandos quite well. And it does have a good percussion effect. again I do not like that you have to go through the menus.

So far a lot of keyboard for the money
Posted By: blueston

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 05:10 PM

Thanks for the review FrankDaddy.

Somehow you have now made me VERY interested in the MP6, even though I was not actually currently looking for a new DP, and on top of that I was very disappointed in the MP5 AP's!
Posted By: msaposs

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 05:24 PM

FrankDaddy: Thanks for the info. How do you like the key click sound on the organs? The key click on the Kawai demo mp3's sounded off to me.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 09:38 PM

@Kawai James, sorry for my rather late response, but isn't that the same demo sound material as on the European site ?! Or is there some additional material hidden ?

Quote: "By the way, there is additional MP10/MP6 content at the KawaiUS.com site."
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 10:03 PM

JFP, 'content' can mean any combination of text, images, audio, or video.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
So far a lot of keyboard for the money


Couldn't have put it better myself

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/05/10 11:21 PM

Thanks for the review, Frank. Much appreciated.

On the MP8, some control features are assignable to the expression pedal, the left foot pedal, the SW switch, and the mod wheel. Don't know if that's of any help to you on this model.

I got a nice surprise when I put nearfield monitors and the sub on. It made the keyboard sound a lot more 'like it's supposed to' than the headphones did, especially the organ voices.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 07:46 AM

@Kawai James,

So no 'new' sound samples. I was specifically interested in MP10 demo's because of the "ziff" I heard in the current demo's. Any chance something like that will happen (before the MP10 hits the stores and users might be putting stuff on the web) ?

Still haven'r ruled out the MP's , but the strange sound at the beginning of the mid-range ff notes annoys me (see previous remarks about the AP demo's).
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 10:13 AM

JFP, no new MP10 sound clips I'm afraid.

The 'ziff' sound you are hearing is possibly the result of the MP3 compression. Each demo was recorded to MP3 using the MP10's USB Audio functions, then normalised using sample editing software, and finally re-encoded back to MP3. It's this 'transcoding' (effectively lossy compressing the audio twice) that is likely causing the artefacts you can hear.

It would have been preferable to record the original demos on the MP10 in WAV format, apply the normalisation, then encode to MP3 (or FLAC), however unfortunately... well, suffice it to say this obviously didn't happen.

I recommend that you listen to some of the previous CA63 recordings posted by mucci or CyberGene's recent Scriabin (here). The CA93/CA63 and MP10 piano sounds are not exactly the same, however the creation process (WAV-->Normalise-->MP3) is at least correct, and should be without any 'ziff' compression artefacts.

As always however, I recommend that you do not base your purchasing decision merely on MP3 demos or YouTube clips. There is absolutely no substitute for playing an instrument with your own hands and listening to the sound produced with your own ears - this of course applies to all DPs regardless of the brand or model.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
JFP, no new MP10 sound clips I'm afraid.

The 'ziff' sound you are hearing is possibly the result of the MP3 compression. Each demo was recorded to MP3 using the MP10's USB Audio functions, then normalised using sample editing software, and finally re-encoded back to MP3. It's this 'transcoding' (effectively lossy compressing the audio twice) that is likely causing the artefacts you can hear.

It would have been preferable to record the original demos on the MP10 in WAV format, apply the normalisation, then encode to MP3 (or FLAC), however unfortunately... well, suffice it to say this obviously didn't happen.

Amateurs...if this is the standard of care from the company on highly visible marketing operations, it is not difficult to understand how buggy firmware is created and shipped from less visible engineering operations....
Originally Posted by Kawai James

I recommend that you listen to some of the previous CA63 recordings posted by mucci or CyberGene's recent Scriabin (here). The CA93/CA63 and MP10 piano sounds are not exactly the same, however the creation process (WAV-->Normalise-->MP3) is at least correct, and should be without any 'ziff' compression artefacts.

What are the differences between the CAx3 sounds and the MP10?
Originally Posted by Kawai James

As always however, I recommend that you do not base your purchasing decision merely on MP3 demos or YouTube clips. There is absolutely no substitute for playing an instrument with your own hands and listening to the sound produced with your own ears - this of course applies to all DPs regardless of the brand or model.

Cheers,
James
x


Great recommendation. Presumably the place to do so would be in a store actually stocking and displaying these instruments.

If it is the recommendation from Kawai to find a Kawai dealer, then why does Kawai make this so difficult and why is Kawai the only manufacturer that doesn't provide dealer search functionality on its European website?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by theJourney
Amateurs...


Well, someone made an honest mistake - it happens.

Originally Posted by theJourney
it is not difficult to understand how buggy firmware is created and shipped from less visible engineering operations....


Please stop trolling.

Bugs are an inherent part of all software development. All Kawai digital pianos undergo a rigorous period of bug testing before each firmware is sent to the factory. It's obviously unfortunate when consumers encounter software issues, however I believe Kawai's excellent record of resolving any reported problems speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by theJourney
What are the differences between the CAx3 sounds and the MP10?


I believe the Concert Grand pianos are largely from the same sample source, however some of the Pop and Jazz piano sounds are new. In addition, the MP10 features additional Virtual Technician parameters such as Damper Noise, Fall Back Noise, Hammer Delay etc., in addition to several more existing MP parameters that are not available on the CA models.

Originally Posted by theJourney
Great recommendation.


Thank you.

Originally Posted by theJourney
Presumably the place to do so would be in a store actually stocking and displaying these instruments.


Correct.

Originally Posted by theJourney
If it is the recommendation from Kawai to find a Kawai dealer, then why does Kawai make this so difficult...


We don't.

Originally Posted by theJourney
...why is Kawai the only manufacturer that doesn't provide dealer search functionality on its European website?


I'm afraid I don't know. However, I will certainly make a point of suggesting this to my European colleagues on Monday. In the meantime, European consumers are encouraged to contact Kawai Europe directly using the information on this page, or check Kawai Japan's distributor information on this page.

Thank you for the positive suggestion.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: mucci

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Please stop trolling.


Thanks for this.
I do no longer directly answer to theJourneys troll comments since I don't want to get personally offended by him.
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 05:16 PM

I agree that the keyclick sounded off on the demo. I was able get a very good keyclick on the MP6. I think that was something left behind on the compression process. It did sound very authentic on my system through headphones. I am now looking at geting some Near Field monitor speakers to show off the instrucment. I had a 1951 Hammond Organ for years. Unfortunatly going through some hard times forced me to sell it. So I am mentally comparing the MP6 to that organ. The more I play with the MP6 organ the more I like it. Other than the how to set the tonebar settings I am most satified with the organ.
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 05:26 PM

Hi Guys

this is not meant to be a slap at Kawai. The demos on the website do not sound as good as the MP6 does live. Yes they could have use different methodolgies in recording the instruments but that did not happen. So it looks like the best thing to do is to try to find one and play it. Or in my case order online with liberal return policies.
Posted By: theJourney

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
Or in my case order online with liberal return policies.


This is a big advantage of living in America!
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/06/10 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
So far I like what I see... I am going back to compare the sound to a Yamaha CP1, 5 and 50 this weekend.

FrankDaddy, please do post your comparison with the CPs, when you have a moment.

I am one step nearer getting my own situation sorted out. I just won an eBay auction for a used MP5 (they are actually pretty thin on the ground). If it impresses me, I may keep it as a rehearsal board, and get the MP6 for gigs. If not, I will probably buy the SV-1.

James, if you're out there, can you say how much difference there is between the old and new APs and EPs? I know the technical specs, so am looking for some kind of guide as to what sonic differences to expect if I go from the 5 to the 6. It's a little weird to be buying an older model in order to do some sort of meaningful demo, but that seems to be my only option at the moment.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 12:09 AM

voxpops, to answer your question, there is a significant difference between the AP and EP sounds in the MP5 and MP6. I would suggest that the main AP/EP sounds on the MP5 are comparable to the older ES4.

While the interface and operation of the MP5/MP6 are certainly very similar, the keyboard action and main AP/EP sounds are significantly different. Therefore I'm afraid it's rather difficult for me to see the wisdom in purchasing an MP5 as a means to assess the MP6 - they are two different instruments utilising vastly different keyboard and sound technologies.

Instead, I recommend that you contact Michelle's Piano Co. in Portland and arrange to demo Kawai DPs that utilise the current generation keyboard actions and piano sounds. While not quite identical to play-testing a 'real' MP6, this would still offer a far closer comparison than the older MP5.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm afraid it's rather difficult for me to see the wisdom in purchasing an MP5 as a means to assess the MP6 - they are two different instruments utilising vastly different keyboard and sound technologies.

Instead, I recommend that you contact Michelle's Piano Co. in Portland and arrange to demo Kawai DPs that utilise the current generation keyboard actions and piano sounds. While not quite identical to play-testing a 'real' MP6, this would still offer a far closer comparison than the older MP5.

Cheers,
James
x

James, thanks for the contact in Portland - I'd never heard of Michelle's, so that's very useful.

As to the questionable wisdom of using the MP5 as a demo, yes I'm sure you're right. However, the similarities in the interfaces and menu structures would allow me to transfer from one to the other very easily if I were to use the MP5 as a rehearsal tool, and the MP6 as my main gigging instrument.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
Hi Guys

this is not meant to be a slap at Kawai. The demos on the website do not sound as good as the MP6 does live. Yes they could have use different methodolgies in recording the instruments but that did not happen. So it looks like the best thing to do is to try to find one and play it. Or in my case order online with liberal return policies.


I backed off on the Mp3 process concern I had with their demos and then some more stuff came out of the woodwork regarding converting back and forth from Mp3 with an initially very low signal. It's good to hear there is more potential legroom to the sound of the machine. I can only hope Kawai get someone in with an audio interface of good quality and record the outputs of the Mp6 at a proper level.

I'm still very interested in the machine at this stage so that demo (as would one of your own..!) would go down very well at the moment..!!

Regards. Rimmer
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Rimmer
I backed off on the Mp3 process concern I had with their demos and then some more stuff came out of the woodwork regarding converting back and forth from Mp3 with an initially very low signal. It's good to hear there is more potential legroom to the sound of the machine.


Yes, the arguments about whether or not converting to MP3 creates audible issues didn't deal with the possibility that something was MP3, converted out of MP3 for editing, then re-encoded back to MP3 a second time. Another variable...
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Rimmer
I backed off on the Mp3 process concern I had with their demos and then some more stuff came out of the woodwork regarding converting back and forth from Mp3 with an initially very low signal. It's good to hear there is more potential legroom to the sound of the machine.


Yes, the arguments about whether or not converting to MP3 creates audible issues didn't deal with the possibility that something was MP3, converted out of MP3 for editing, then re-encoded back to MP3 a second time. Another variable...


Yeah. Don't forget the low level of the original material as well. That's not going to help..
Posted By: virtu

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 09:48 PM

KawaiJames,

Sorry to bother you again, but in term of sampling, what is the difference between MP6 and ES6 on Concert Grand pianos?

Thanks.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 11:09 PM

virtu, I believe the the main Concert Grand sound on the MP6 and ES6 is from the same source, however the MP6 utilises a larger (in terms of memory size) sample set.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: virtu

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/07/10 11:26 PM

Thanls Kawai James, next week I have to decide which one to buy: the new MP6 or ES6.

If I go with ES6 maybe until next friday I will have it at home and if I decide to go with MP6 maybe I will receive it after november 15.

My principal purpose it will be to play piano (example: Through My Words from Dream Theater, some pieces from FF).

Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
virtu, I believe the the main Concert Grand sound on the MP6 and ES6 is from the same source, however the MP6 utilises a larger (in terms of memory size) sample set.

ES6 = ?MB
MP6 = ?MB

When it comes to sample sets, size really does mean something. I almost can't believe manufacturers used to be proud of these stats. What once was a big selling point is now a trade secret.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 09:29 AM

ES6 = 8MB
MP6 = 16MB

Something like that I guess ;-)

I may be joking, but I feel it's not even far from the truth. ROM-pler sample sets are never even close to those you will find on software based instruments. As long as it sounds right..., I heard Roland SN expansion board utilizes only 32MB of samples and combines that with the Sn processing. The samples are then mainly used for the attack phase and can be very short (at least that's what Roland decided for us).

Once everything is finally based on some sort of Physical Modelling , like the V-Piano, we can finally put this sample size debate to rest...may take a while though.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
ES6 = 8MB
MP6 = 16MB

My best guess would be around double your estimates. And of course everyone is doing it which makes it OK.

Roland lists total ROM size for the RD-700GX as "256 MB (16-bit linear equivalent)" but has shied away from it now for the NX, even though it appears the NX has more in the way of samples. Go figure.

Time passes with no substantial improvement, and through neglect these numbers have entered the pathetically small category. DP manufacturers then behave like poor government: stamp it top secret if its divulgence might cause embarrassment for our betters.
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by virtu
Thanls Kawai James, next week I have to decide which one to buy: the new MP6 or ES6.

If I go with ES6 maybe until next friday I will have it at home and if I decide to go with MP6 maybe I will receive it after november 15.

My principal purpose it will be to play piano (example: Through My Words from Dream Theater, some pieces from FF).



I've played the ES6 and the CN33 (which i'm led to believe shares the same keyboard and a few of the AP sounds with MP6).

The CN33 is a much better keyboard and has a noticeably more complete AP sound. I'd personally have to have a very good reason to buy an ES6 over an MP6 (or CN33..) and I can't think of a single one personally...
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 08:18 PM

Build-in speakers in a portable ?! Next step-up would be the FP7(F) , which can be to expensive for many people. Step down would be the PX330, at which stage I would prefer the build quality of a Kawai. Anything goes...
Posted By: virtu

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 08:20 PM

Hi Rimmer, today I did my choice and get it an ES6. The MP6 has a lots of features that I will not use and I believe that the ES6 will be nice for me for some years.

That will be my first DP =)

Thanks for all.
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/08/10 08:29 PM

Regarding "sample size", are we talking about "equivalent" sample size, or actual physical memory? The reason I ask is that Kawai doesn't even use samples, does it? I have always assumed that Kawai's "sample" memory would contain Harmonic Imaging data. If we are referring to physical memory, it may be that Kawai needs considerably less memory for the same duration of sound.

The next question is - does Kawai use Harmonic Imaging for all sounds, or just the APs? In my (ancient) MP9000, I have always wondered about this, because it's ONLY the APs that have a very smooth change of timbre with velocity. (so maybe standard sampling is used for the rest of the sounds?)

Greg.
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 03:26 AM

I have the predecessor to the ES6; the ES4. I loved it so much that when I bought my MP6 I kept it. If I do a "pure" piano gig the ES4 is just fine. Nobody but me realizes the ES4 is a generation back. I have had my ES4 for about 4 years and had no problems. That is why I like Kawai. the stuff works and is very reliable.

I hope you love your ES6 as much as I love my ES4 and my newly acquired MP6.
Posted By: KHen

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 04:47 AM

So you now love your mp6? That is good to hear. I read all your reviews, thanks btw, and it seems like I'll have to save up and purchase one also.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 08:53 AM

FrankDaddy, if you ever find the time to do a proper recording of the output of the MP6 , please don't hold back. We're all waiting for some 'real' sound demo's to appear, cause the MP3's on the Kawai site tell us nothing (other than some processing artifacts). By the way; I'm talking about the Acoustic piano programs in this regard. Some hard playing in the Mid-key ranges would tell me enough...

Thanks
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 03:32 PM

I be happy to do that. It won't be anything fancy. I will output as a WAV file. That will give more detail than using MP3. this may take about a week to post. I will let you know when I am finished.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by FrankDaddy
I be happy to do that. It won't be anything fancy. I will output as a WAV file. That will give more detail than using MP3. this may take about a week to post. I will let you know when I am finished.

Thanks, FrankDaddy. If you could include a few sustained notes and some variations in dynamics, that'd be great. I'd also love to hear the Rhodes Wurli and organs - if you've time...
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 04:36 PM

Cool. That's recording the actual stereo output of the MP6 itself right?


Cheers. Rimmer
Posted By: curt88

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/09/10 11:47 PM

Kawai James,

How close is the sample sound of the MP10 to the RX-7 Grand piano? I'm really into the sound of the RX-7 lately (David Nevue, Joe Bongiorno, etc.)...

Earlier in this thread the subject of providing the RM3 action in a MIDI controller board was raised and it was quickly poo-pood under the assumption that it would not sell. Well, I wish Kawai would take that risk and be proven incorrect. The market for a top-end action in a MIDI controller is WIDE open. The Studiologic NUMA was sooooo close but their action is so NON-piano like that it just fails miserably. Nothing else looks or feels like a real piano key surface.

So what I'm looking at here is buying the MP10 only for its action and $2500 seems a little pricey which brings me back to my first question - if I do get this piano with the intention of putting to waste everything internal to it, how close is the piano sound to the RX-7? If it's pretty close, then maybe I'll get a little more for my money.

Thanks James!
Curt
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 05:57 AM

Its pretty close ... you would have a difficult time telling if it was recorded.
I have a fairly high opinion of the MP10 from the one time I played it. I would rate it right up there with the Roland and Yamaha and perhaps slightly better then both in certain aspects.
As always you should really play and have a close listen to the piano yourself before you make any decision. There is no substitute for your own impressions of any board. It may well be quite difficult (or near impossible if you live in certain locations according to recent posts here) to demo a Kawai piano but I'd suggest that anyone in the market should at least try and give it a go to be fully informed before buying a new board.

Posted By: curt88

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 11:13 AM

I would be converting from a Roland RD-700GX to the Kawai. You see, it's not about the internal sounds with me at all (the SN made a huge improvement over the internal sounds of the RD but it still doesn't sound REAL to me - very V-Piano). I don't use them. I'm essentially looking to swap the Roland action for the Kawai and tossing everything else out.

I loved the concept of the NUMA board. Shiny black case, no knobs or mod levers. It was PERFECT! But that action... eek.

I have NO Kawai dealers in my area so I have to order the MP10 from Sweetwater and give it 30-day workout.

Curt
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 11:29 AM

curt88, may I ask where you are based (state and city)?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jackie Apple

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 02:02 PM

I'm also very interested in the MP10 because I have read good things about the action (although I have not been able to play it myself). Not that I have any reason to think the MP10's sounds won't be excellent too, but the action is more important to me.

Any comments people may have regarding the action and how it compares to the action on other dps would be gratefully received.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 03:25 PM

Jackie Apple, the MP10 and CA93 share exactly the same keyboard action. Therefore if you are eager to play-test the MP10's action, I strongly recommend you to visit your local Kawai dealer and try the CA93.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 03:44 PM

Talking about M10 vs CA93, I read something about dual voice not present on MP10.
Is it true? May you kindly elaborate the issue or address me towards the posts where it is discussed?
TY
Posted By: R0B

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 03:46 PM

Deleted.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 04:45 PM

Qbert, please refer to this post.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 05:52 PM

Thanks James. That's exactly the same behavior of FP7.
Posted By: Jackie Apple

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/10/10 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Jackie Apple, the MP10 and CA93 share exactly the same keyboard action. Therefore if you are eager to play-test the MP10's action, I strongly recommend you to visit your local Kawai dealer and try the CA93.

Cheers,
James
x


Yes, I may go to Rose Morris in London but I'm still grateful for every little piece of information from the people on these boards (who are much better players than I am and have more experience to draw upon when making comparisons).

Thanks
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/20/10 01:20 AM

FrankDaddy, any chance of an update now you've had the MP6 for a couple of weeks? How does it compare, tonally, to the ES4? Is the action a big improvement?

Hope to hear from you!
Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/22/10 09:47 AM

I have now ordered a Kawai MP10, it should arrive in the beginning of December. If nobody beats me to it I will upload some demos. Requests in the form of midi files sent to me are welcome from people with higher post count than me ;-)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/23/10 11:54 PM

Good morning chaps,

By popular request, one of my colleagues at Kawai Europe has posted some new WAV demos of the MP10:

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethread-mp10-infos-kawai-122542-5966602-10.html#go_132400

Enjoy! wink

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/24/10 01:12 AM

Thanks for the link James!

Personally I think it sounds quite good; I'm looking forward to trying one here in the next month or so.

Aaron
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/24/10 02:49 AM

Very nice. James, can we have something very similar for the MP6, so the two can be compared more directly?
Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/24/10 12:57 PM

Thanks James :-) The Tine1 sounds soo much fatter than everything else I've heard from my original DP-candidate-list. The AP's also sounds great, like a sampled accoustic, not a DSP modeled sound wink

Is there any English demo video coming? I've sadly forgotten all my high-school german frown

Posted By: blueston

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/24/10 05:35 PM

The pianos definitely sound much much better than the MP5 (i was never able to try an MP8). Very good in fact!

But like voxpops I wonder if the MP6 will sound almost as good. I would never consider the MP10 due to the weight issue.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/24/10 09:45 PM

voxpops, I will have to ask if additional WAV demos can be created for the MP6 too. However, I believe these new MP10 demos were recorded largely for the benefit of those who heard concerned by compression artefacts in the previous MP3 clips.

blueston, the MP5 and MP8II shared the same tone generator. Indeed, it should be noted that the MP8/MP8II were very well received by the industry...they were also a few kilos heavier than the MP10.

tinybox, I gather an English language video is being planned. If there is a specific feature that you would like to see highlighted, please do let me know.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 12:10 AM

James, thanks for asking.

What's so good about the MP10 demos is that they are structured so you can clearly hear the range of dynamics and the sustain characteristics. I'd love to be able to compare the same pieces played on the MP6.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
tinybox, I gather an English language video is being planned. If there is a specific feature that you would like to see highlighted, please do let me know.

Not to put words into tinybox's mouth, but I'd like some PHI vs UPHI compare/contrast video/audio clips. Could we please have more obscure clues / non-answers as to what this difference means to those of us out here in hard earned money consumer land? Think of it as a chance to hawk your wares and flaunt your technical prowess.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Kawai James
tinybox, I gather an English language video is being planned. If there is a specific feature that you would like to see highlighted, please do let me know.

Not to put words into tinybox's mouth, but I'd like some PHI vs UPHI compare/contrast video/audio clips. Could we please have more obscure clues / non-answers as to what this difference means to those of us out here in hard earned money consumer land? Think of it as a chance to hawk your wares and flaunt your technical prowess.

Dewster, since the only known place in the galaxy to try an MP10 or MP6 is the planet Magrathea, it's likely that we'll have to be content with the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything as our definitive clue to PHI and UPHI. And everyone knows that that is 42.

Right, James?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 01:18 AM

Right.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
Dewster, since the only known place in the galaxy to try an MP10 or MP6 is the planet Magrathea, it's likely that we'll have to be content with the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything as our definitive clue to PHI and UPHI. And everyone knows that that is 42.

Right, James?

CA63/93 have UPHI, no need to go to the ends of the universe to give it a spin - correct? Or is this one of those "when is UPHI not UPHI" riddles of the Sphinx? James?
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 02:31 AM

Yes, the CA93, CA63, and MP10 all feature UPHI sound technology. However, as I have stated on a number of occasions, the MP10 features additional acoustic effects and new jazz/pop sounds not found on the CA93/CA63, so it's not entirely a like-for-like comparison.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
... the MP10 features additional acoustic effects and new jazz/pop sounds not found on the CA93/CA63, so it's not entirely a like-for-like comparison.

Are you saying UPHI has multiple variants when it comes to APs?

Sorry, I know I'm being a royal pain for asking questions about KAWAI products, please forgive me.

And if no one else cares, please ignore me.
Posted By: Deffie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by dewster

Are you saying UPHI has multiple variants when it comes to APs?


Not James, but he previously said that the MP10 has a new set of UPHI AP samples for the jazz/pop pianos. He also said that it has additional effects (pedal up/down sounds perhaps, I don't recall the specifics, but things like that not directly related to a note's sound) not present in previous UPHI pianos. So the CA63/93 have the same base samples for all the notes (and same velocity layers, sample lengths, etc) but not necessarily the same secondary effect samples.

Aaron
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Deffie
... Aaron

Thanks! I'll shut up now.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 04:43 AM

I suppose until someone reverse engineers a new Kawai DP (expensive proposition!), we'll never know the ins and outs of the various forms of Harmonic Imaging.

Personally, I don't see how it could possibly harm Kawai to publish basic data, such as the different memory allocations or sampling levels. Secrecy might be OK if you could wander down to your nearest friendly DP store and see how much you like one model or another, but when you're "flying blind" and ordering on the basis of a few audio clips and some marketing spiel, it's frustrating. I actually think this kind of thing is counterproductive, turning potential customers off.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
I actually think this kind of thing is counterproductive, turning potential customers off.

Corporate secrecy is reaching the point where employees are so afraid of revealing anything that might get them in trouble that even higher-ups won't go on record for telling you essentially nothing about their products. If I weren't shopping and actually trying to buy the very things they can't discuss, it would be kind of hilarious.

For some reason the Cone of Silence comes to mind.
Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 10:16 AM

dewster,

I thank you for your thread that dissects the sound of the DP's and analyze them to bits. I think that this analyze is a VERY good idea in that it reveales the DP manufacturers cheats. But are the tech specs (or how-does-it-work explanation) really that important?

Think about it this way:
We have two boxes from two different manufacturers, one white and one black, that plays HD movies from an external harddrive. The black one has a slow CPU and very little RAM and the white one has huge amounts of RAM and a kickass CPU. The software implementation on the black one is so good that it actually exceeds the performance and usability of the white one. If you assume you cannot hack the boxes and put your own software on them the black one would of course be the better buy. The tech specs on these two would be meaningless if there wasn't a universal tech spec unit for general excelence (GE maybe?).


However, I think that your interrogation like curiosity is a good thing. Every customer should be able to ask these questions without feeling like a pain in the butt.

Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James

tinybox, I gather an English language video is being planned. If there is a specific feature that you would like to see highlighted, please do let me know.


A quick run through of all the AP/EP presets and a presentation of what can be produced with the amp sim and efx. Since the MP10 has so few sounds I think it would be good to show how good the few that are in there really are. I really like the idea of focusing on the AP/EP's and skip the dozens of mostly unusable sounds others have in their GM banks.
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 07:14 PM

Those APs sound great. The EPs sound pretty good too. Makes me much more comfortable about getting rid of the CP1. The CP1 really has an excellent EP section that is going to be hard to beat, but the RM3 action, the USB recording and the AP sounds of the MP10 are just what I need.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/25/10 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by tinybox
But are the tech specs (or how-does-it-work explanation) really that important?

I really wasn't asking for anything nearly that deep in the way of info. If they said something like "the latest variant of sound technology on the new brand x model y better captures the full dynamics of playing (implying more layers or something analogous) and includes mechanical noises for extra realism, plus better sympathetic resonance" I'd be fine with that. Roland doesn't explain how they do SN, but I'm pretty happy with the way they describe what SN means to a DP buyer / player.

Why is important buyer info freely given by one manufacturer but need to be pulled like teeth from another?

1. For a company known more for its APs than DPs it boils down to mystique - the more the product is perceived as a rich acoustic instrument the better, so the less talk about a DP line as a pile of plastic keys on a slab of MDF loosely tied to a 10 MIPs processor and 64 MB of Flash and a couple of $5 speakers / 10W amps the better. Any technical details that absolutely must be revealed will be strictly controlled by the marketing department - and this performed as something of a striptease, where the emphasis is on the revealing rather than what is revealed, and in the end you may have only caught a glimpse of the underthings.

2. For a company known more for its prowess in keyboards, synths, and other sound technology, it is in that company's best interests to shout the results of that prowess from the rooftops, though perhaps without coming out and saying exactly how they accomplish it so as to maintain some mystique there.

Companies in category 2 (Roland) raise the consumer information expectation bar for companies in category 1 (Kawai, Yamaha). I also think that the DP departments in category 1 companies don't have to try quite as hard to be ahead of the curve, because their digital products get a contact mystique boost from their AP products.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by dewster
If they said something like "the latest variant of sound technology on the new brand x model y better captures the full dynamics of playing (implying more layers or something analogous) and includes mechanical noises for extra realism, plus better sympathetic resonance" I'd be fine with that.


I believe that's actually what I've been saying from the very beginning.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I believe that's actually what I've been saying from the very beginning.

You have, but more in terms of the difference between this new "enhanced" PHI and UPHI found in MP6 / MP10 (roughly twice the memory plus sound effects) as compared to the older PHI / UPHI found in previous Kawai DPs. I'm interested in the differences a listener / player might notice between HI, PHI, and UPHI (and also this new EPHI and EUPHI).
Posted By: egallego

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 03:46 AM

Well dewster, I fully respect and appreciate your work in the DPBSD, but it seems clear that KJ can't give away this information. I guess insistence is futile.

So the only way to obtain the data you want is to buy and disassemble the required instruments. How difficult would that?

[Sorry for the OT]
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by egallego
So the only way to obtain the data you want is to buy and disassemble the required instruments. How difficult would that?

Well, eventually hopefully there will be some MP6 and MP10 owners on this forum... all we need is one of each of them to send Dewster a DPBSD detector file, and then there will be a basis for determining what kind of audible differences there are. Patience...
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 07:15 AM

I have learned from the german Kawai Forum that both CA 13 and CN 33 have a 8 step pedal. So the question arises, if all PHI pianos support 8 steps for the pedal only, and if all UPHI support 24 steps.

Especially for the MP6 -which is often used as Masterkeyboard- this question would be of interest. Also I think, such details cannot been hold as a secret, because they are easily measurable and a customer will know it after buying without problem.

This data that is /easily/ obtainable (measurable) after buy should be public.
(So basic data like levels and impedances should be public also)

I have also a proposal here for the Kawai engineers: Those pianos that only use 8 steps could nevertheless output 24 steps on the MIDI port and record them on the recorder. Normally the pedal is continuous and the steps are generated per software. So this should be easy to do. I think, for example a MP6 will be compatible to MIDI files generated by a MP10, it will simply ignore the extraneous steps and so no problems should arise from that, but the usability as a masterkeyboard would be improved.

I myself are not so much interested about internals of the soundsystem. Data about sample layers and so on can be very misleading if the piano internally uses a combined method of sampling and modelling. (I believe the Kawai's do this) Even the polyphony data is misleading if it is not specified wether voices, mono voices, stero voices or number of oscillators or notes are meant. A piano with a polyphony of 32 stereo notes can easily be better than a pino with 128 oscillators polyphony and a piano with high polyphony but primitive management can be worse than a piano with low polyphony and sophisticated management.


Best,

Peter
Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by dewster

Why is important buyer info freely given by one manufacturer but need to be pulled like teeth from another?


Below average marketing mixed with the fact that what's new in UPHI might not sound nearly as impressive on paper as in real life? smile

Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
I myself are not so much interested about internals of the soundsystem. Data about sample layers and so on can be very misleading if the piano internally uses a combined method of sampling and modelling. (I believe the Kawai's do this) Even the polyphony data is misleading if it is not specified wether voices, mono voices, stero voices or number of oscillators or notes are meant.

I agree. Specs are often missing complete context; and even if they are complete, they give you data only on a very small piece of what makes the thing sound the way it does; and even on that part of the sound, there is not necessarily a direct correlation between a number and subjective quality. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've heard single layer pianos with more natural sounding dynamics than some multi-layer pianos.
That said, I think to the extent specs are useful, they are more useful when comparing models within a manufacturer's line than when comparing models between different manufacturers.
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think to the extent specs are useful, they are more useful when comparing models within a manufacturer's line than when comparing models between different manufacturers.

Precisely. If I'm considering an MP6, I want to know in some quantitative way (so that I can extrapolate some sort of qualitative reference point) how it differs from the MP10.

At the moment, even though this data is not published, we know that the MP6 has only around half the memory of the MP10. That implies that something must be missing or heavily compressed, or both. What that might be is important to a prospective purchaser. There will be other differences too, both in the sound engine and elsewhere in the software implementation, that will affect everyday operation; where such things impact on performance, they need to be spelled out so that the buyer is able to make an informed judgment as to whether the instrument is fit for their purpose.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
I have also a proposal here for the Kawai engineers: Those pianos that only use 8 steps could nevertheless output 24 steps on the MIDI port and record them on the recorder. Normally the pedal is continuous and the steps are generated per software. So this should be easy to do. I think, for example a MP6 will be compatible to MIDI files generated by a MP10, it will simply ignore the extraneous steps and so no problems should arise from that, but the usability as a masterkeyboard would be improved.


Maybe it helps: MP5 sustain outputs 24 MIDI steps (0, 11, 18, 21, 26, 30, 37, 44, 50, 55, 60, 65, 72, 79, 86, 93, 97, 102, 106, 110, 115, 119, 123, 127). I wouldn't expect less from MP6.

My guess is that the 24 steps limit may be some kind of limitation of the pedal itself (not enough resolution). If MP6 uses the same pedal, probably it will output the same steps.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/26/10 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie

Maybe it helps: MP5 sustain outputs 24 MIDI steps (0, 11, 18, 21, 26, 30, 37, 44, 50, 55, 60, 65, 72, 79, 86, 93, 97, 102, 106, 110, 115, 119, 123, 127). I wouldn't expect less from MP6.

My guess is that the 24 steps limit may be some kind of limitation of the pedal itself (not enough resolution). If MP6 uses the same pedal, probably it will output the same steps.


Thank you very much!

No, the reason is not the pedal resolution.
The pedal voltage of my Kawai CP136 has infinite resolution.
This voltage is directly measurable at the processor.
The processor outputs only 7 distinct MIDI values (including zero) So the software makes the steps. (Modern processors have 8 Bit analog inputs or better)

The reason is practical: A pedal cannot always produce MIDI events for all 127 steps. This would give several 100 MIDI events per second, if the pianist is very busy with the pedal.
This would exceed the bandwidth of the MIDI interface. Therefore the amount of events must be reduced and the simplest way to do this, is to send only those steps that are recognized by the receiver.
And yes, I think 24 steps are a very good choice, I dont believe more is necessary for any piano library. 8 or less steps are however not enough. In Vintage D the sustain varies between 0-64 and is almost constant above. So, with an 8 step pedal, only 4 would be effective usable.
The steps 64-127 are apparently only used for pedal noises. If a step is too abrupt, the noise will be too loud.

The MP8 II and the MP5 shared exactly the same sound engine.
With the MP6 and MP10 this has changed. It will be interesting to see the pedal output of the MP6.

Best,

Peter

Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by voxpops
At the moment, even though this data is not published, we know that the MP6 has only around half the memory of the MP10. That implies that something must be missing or heavily compressed, or both.

All DPs are tremendously compressed, some are somewhat less compressed than others, but I don't believe any are out of the "heavy" category. Why this is so in the days of ~$1/GB Flash (retail mind you) I have no answer for. Which DP manufacturer will be the first to enter the 21st century? If one did it right now they could clean up. Most likely they will enter it en masse at NAMM ~2020 (so as not to ruffle any industrial feathers / upset any retirement pension applecarts).
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 12:08 AM

Peter, did you see this post?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by kurtie
My guess is that the 24 steps limit may be some kind of limitation of the pedal itself (not enough resolution). If MP6 uses the same pedal, probably it will output the same steps.

I agree with Peter that this is to limit (already limited) MIDI bandwidth from the pedal, and not a limit to the pedal resolution. A better solution might be to sample the pedal at regular intervals and output that value in the continuous range of 0-127, which would be easier for the end sound generator to interpret as a continuous value, and wouldn't look like such a glaring limitation from the controller.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 12:19 AM

Quote

.... with regards to your damper pedal query, I can tell you that all the MPs respond to 24 levels/steps.
By the way, there is additional MP10/MP6 content at the KawaiUS.com site.


Thank you James,

This is still a little bit unclear to me. I would like to know which steps are sent via MIDI.

BTW, I think Kawai could easily without hardware modification modify all their current models to send 24 levels. This would increase the usability with software pianos.

Or did they already do this? Unfortunately there is no clear and understandable information for all models available...

Best,

Peter
BTW, I dont currently intend to get a new piano. But I always look into the future and I am sometimes asked for recommendations and so Im interested to know this.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by hpeterh

The reason is practical: A pedal cannot always produce MIDI events for all 127 steps. This would give several 100 MIDI events per second, if the pianist is very busy with the pedal.


I see... a pedal producing all the 127 steps would certainly eat a lot of MIDI bandwidth... if I recall correctly MIDI can transport approximately 1000 messages each second, so heavy pedaling with full 128 steps would be a bandwidth problem. My guess was wrong... once more time ha

Originally Posted by hpeterh

A better solution might be to sample the pedal at regular intervals and output that value in the continuous range of 0-127, which would be easier for the end sound generator to interpret as a continuous value, and wouldn't look like such a glaring limitation from the controller.


Much neatest solution the way you put it. It's not a big deal as 24 steps are enough for lots of things, but I agree that as a MIDI controller it limits somewhat pedal possibilities (for instance when using the pedal for controlling some other effect via MIDI).
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by voxpops
At the moment, even though this data is not published, we know that the MP6 has only around half the memory of the MP10. That implies that something must be missing or heavily compressed, or both.

All DPs are tremendously compressed, some are somewhat less compressed than others, but I don't believe any are out of the "heavy" category. Why this is so in the days of ~$1/GB Flash (retail mind you) I have no answer for. Which DP manufacturer will be the first to enter the 21st century? If one did it right now they could clean up. Most likely they will enter it en masse at NAMM ~2020 (so as not to ruffle any industrial feathers / upset any retirement pension applecarts).

Although reducing cost is the obvious reason to limit the amount of memory, may I offer another reason. VSL Imperial Grand is a huge library. They compress it 10:1. Even compressed, it's too big to read into RAM. It's read from the disk and decompressed on the fly. In their cases, they use a lossless compression similar to zip. Decompressing something with this kind of compression is pretty quick compared to reading the same amount of uncompressed data from a hard drive. So for VSL, this is more a matter of performance (keeping latency down) as reducing the cost.

Other software instruments stream from disk too, but I'm not sure about compression.

Compression by itself is not a bad thing as long as it's lossless. As sample size increases (longer samples, less looping, more velocity layers, pedal noise, hammer noise, resonance, release samples, higher bit rate, higher sample frequency, etc.), it will never be cost effective to store it uncompressed in expensive flash memory versus decompressing on the fly.

Something like Imperfect Samples Fazioli Extreme is 162 GB installed. That much NAND memory would be quite expensive today. A typical SSD of that size is about $2/GB. And that's from manufacturers who buy it in much higher quantities than a Roland or Yamaha or Kawai. Even Apple who gets one of the best deals for NAND is paying around $27 for 16GB (according to iSuppli).

So, until modeling overtakes sampling, if you want something the size of IS Fazioli or VSL Imperial, all stored in flash memory, no compression, it's going to cost you. In the meantime, I'd rather manufacturers compress (losslessly) and increase sample length by 10x. Or up the resolution from 16-bit/44.1kHz to 24-bit/192kHz and add 25% more velocity levels and 25% longer samples.

I think there is too much focus on metrics that aren't always good for apples-to-apples comparisons. My priorities are 1. how does it play, 2. how does it sound, and then 3. how do the metrics that contribute to these compare. The DPBSD project is a good example of 3. The other two are subjective.

The only way the amount of memory comes into play is if it affects one of these things or makes it too expensive for me to afford.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
The reason is practical: A pedal cannot always produce MIDI events for all 127 steps. This would give several 100 MIDI events per second, if the pianist is very busy with the pedal.
This would exceed the bandwidth of the MIDI interface.


That doesn't sound right. The MIDI baud rate is 31.25 kHz, plenty of bandwidth for 128 steps several times per second. Otherwise, it could also not handle mod wheels and expression pedals, to say nothing of polyphonic aftertouch.
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by anotherscott
That doesn't sound right. The MIDI baud rate is 31.25 kHz, plenty of bandwidth for 128 steps several times per second. Otherwise, it could also not handle mod wheels and expression pedals, to say nothing of polyphonic aftertouch.


That is not really plenty of bandwidth. It seems a lot but it is not. You need approximately 30 cycles of those 31.25 Khz for sending a single MIDI message (3 bytes), so you don't have so many message slots in a second (1000).

From http://www.bikexprt.com/cakewalk/midiprob.htm#bandwidth

Quote
MIDI bandwidth is limited. Finally, there is the problem of bandwidth. Standard, serial MIDI can send only about 3,000 bytes, or 1,000 messages, per second. This is not enough data to avoid audible delays or allow complete flexibility of control with today's polytimbral synthesizers. Continuous controller messages, in particular, gobble up data bandwidth.


Mod wheels and pitch bends can, in fact, saturate MIDI channel, but a pianist repedaling would generate enough messages for getting the MIDI channel busy for a quarter of a second, and that would generate latencies. And yes, polyphonic aftertouch must be another source of problems... I don't be surprised to discover that devices with aftertouch do something to avoid jamming MIDI with messages, maybe limiting the number of steps (128 steps seem to much for aftertouch), or limiting the number of messages sent per unit of time.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by kurtie
From http://www.bikexprt.com/cakewalk/midiprob.htm#bandwidth

Quote
MIDI bandwidth is limited. Finally, there is the problem of bandwidth. Standard, serial MIDI can send only about 3,000 bytes, or 1,000 messages, per second. This is not enough data to avoid audible delays or allow complete flexibility of control with today's polytimbral synthesizers. Continuous controller messages, in particular, gobble up data bandwidth.

I think the key word in that paragraph is "poytimbral." Yes, if you're running a sequencer and sending data on up to 16 channels simultaneously, and a number of those channels may also be employing continuous effects like aftertouch/wheels/pedals or sending lots of other data at superhuman speeds, it can choke. But I'm talking about just "live" playing, which just isn't nearly as demanding of MIDI as those kinds of applications, since you're basically limited to what your hands and feet can do in real time.

Keyboards are full of 128-step continuous controls (pedals, wheels, faders, knob, ribbons, aftertouch). It just doesn't seem like a continuous sustain pedal would create so much extra data, I'd just be surprised if this is where they drew the line in the sand and said, "no, not one more 128-step controller!"
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/27/10 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Compression by itself is not a bad thing as long as it's lossless.

As long as I can't hear it and it doesn't fatigue my ears, I'm fine with lossy compression. High end piano software companies are playing a bit of specmanship (I never thought I'd complain about this) when they brag about lossless compression and the size of their sample sets - though I probably would too if I were them.

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
In the meantime, I'd rather manufacturers compress (losslessly) and increase sample length by 10x. Or up the resolution from 16-bit/44.1kHz to 24-bit/192kHz and add 25% more velocity levels and 25% longer samples.

I'm also fine with 16/44.1 samples, though once combined I'd like a bit more headroom. But otherwise I pretty much agree with you. Nord already has something that I think could give SN a run for it's money in the Nord Piano. But they would need to release a single piano sample set that would utilize all of the ~500MB sample memory.

I find it bizarre that tossing a couple of dollars of Flash in a DP, or merely putting a USB or SDHC connector on a DP, and allowing for sample sets in excess of 1 GB would blow every existing DP completely out of the water, including ones that cost many thousands of dollars and that are hyped specifically for their realistic piano sound.
Posted By: hpeterh

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/28/10 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by dewster

I find it bizarre that tossing a couple of dollars of Flash in a DP, or merely putting a USB or SDHC connector on a DP, and allowing for sample sets in excess of 1 GB would blow every existing DP completely out of the water, including ones that cost many thousands of dollars and that are hyped specifically for their realistic piano sound.


Technically possible but who wants to do that for free?
And then release updates for all this bug reports and complains over the sound that would result?

How to get adaequate monetary return for all the work?
How to do the copy protection? How to distribute over internet in a secure way? And finally there is the competition of softwarepianos and those already have solved this problems....
Maybe Yamaha one day comes up with an idea. IDC (Internet Direct connection) is in all their instruments.......
Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/28/10 10:32 PM

All I ask for is that the DP manufacturers give us the best that they currently have in their sound-engine store. Don't tell those of us who can't cope with a 60-80lb stage behemoth that we are therefore only deserving of a lower-quality (and consequently less expressive) engine.

Kawai used to have the right approach - they put the same sound engine in both the MP5 and MP8II, but offered different actions and features, allowing users to choose whether they preferred a wooden action or a lighter package. No one wants a cheaper-sounding instrument, so Kawai's current policy of (relatively) dumbing down the more portable instrument, means that they are no longer offering people like me what they want from their stage piano.

Yes, I would like DP manufacturers to advance more quickly towards the benchmark set by software programs, but I'm more interested in them not trying to manipulate or second-guess their customers.
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/29/10 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by hpeterh
Technically possible but who wants to do that for free...

Nord is pretty much doing all of that already.

[edit]All they need now is a 500 MB single sample set (more would be better of course but that is the internal limit) and to perhaps move away from Fatar actions.
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/29/10 11:13 AM

Maybe the "O-Piano" (or "PianO" for the geeks), an open sourced DP system with schematics and everything available for free under some forbidden-to-sell agreement. A little community of enthusiasts to keep it running and offer donation type funding. One could always dream.
Posted By: blueston

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 11/29/10 04:51 PM

Good idea, but I'd call it P-inix (or Plinix) laugh
Posted By: Ovidiu M

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/05/10 11:25 AM

Hi! Does anyone know if MP6/MP10 have realistic instruments like the superarticulation instruments in Yamaha CVP line?
Posted By: B. Michels

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 11:14 AM

Has someone REALLY tried the MP10 ?

How its keyboard action compare with say a V-Piano or... a real AP Grand ?

thanks
Posted By: tinybox

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 02:04 PM

Now that I have spent some hours with the MP10 I think it's time to share some thoughts...

It has a very intuitive user interface, I haven't even opened the manual yet smile

I can't fault the AP sound on anything except that I can occasionally hear a hint of looping, but I already knew that from the demos that Kawai released. I've really fallen in love with the sound character of this DP and the key-sound connection is perfect. It's not possible to layer two (or more) AP voices like in the CA63/93 but there's a bunch of AP parameters to play around with. I haven't spent so much time here so I cannot really tell how good/useful this is. But I can tell you that the parameters Attack/Decay/Sustain/Release/Cutoff/Resonance is here on all sounds, including EP's and Sub.

The EP's sound very good to me, but I have to put the touch parameter to Light to make it feel right. There's also a Light+ and if that's not light enough, a user setting. The raw sound of the 3 Tines and 3 Reeds are just awesome to get lost in when one should actually be practicing instead =) There's also two effects slots and an amp simulation in the EP section so the possibilities here are huge.

The Sub section contains some really good strings and pads. The Bell and Sweep sounds, which is added as an extra layer on the string or pad, could be better but I usually turn them down really low or off. In this section there's also the Vibraphone, Harpsichord and Choir.

The keys are just wonderful, extremely good response/bounce back feeling. It feels heavier than the PHAIII and after playing for a while I can feel it in my hands. I get a feeling that this is a good thing since it's much easier to go from heavy to light action than the other way around.

Other than that all the expected features are there and working as expected, it seems to me that the MP10 does not contain any hidden disappointments or deamons.

Posted By: voxpops

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 05:02 PM

Thanks for that encouraging review, tinybox. It sounds like the MP10 is a really accomplished board.

Now, hopefully, someone will post a comparison with the MP6, so that we can get an impression of how much gets lost in "translation" of the APs, and particularly the EPs.
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 05:55 PM

Boy, it would be great if one could try out one of these boards. I bought the original RD700 over a Kawai MP9000 because I couldn't audition the latter. Now I'm looking at a RD700NX, and hoping to try out the MP10 so that I don't just end up with the Roland by default.... (frustration)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 09:17 PM

10fingers, may I ask where in CA you are based?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 10:34 PM

Thanks to tinybox (thanks!) the MP10 just ran the DPBSD gauntlet! Link.
Posted By: Suryaman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/12/10 11:13 PM

Slightly OT:

Finding the latest kawai digital pianos is a problem here in California.
I live in OC and the best I could find in Santa Ana was the Kawai CA51. I contacted the kind Kawai customer service and after some emails they gave me a phone number of an LA shop but they hadn't the latest Kawai digital pianos at that time.

Anyway, there's the NAMM in Anaheim next month so, hopefully, I'll be able to try the MP10, the only stage piano that will keep me from buying the 700NX in the future.
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/13/10 06:54 AM

Hi James,

I'm in the Sacramento area,

Many thanks,
Jonathan
Posted By: B. Michels

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/14/10 01:01 AM

Has someone being able to compare (hand's on) the MP10 ?with the CP1 yam and the V-piano ?
Posted By: sullivang

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/14/10 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by 10fingers
I bought the original RD700 over a Kawai MP9000 because I couldn't audition the latter.


I had bought a used Roland RD500 (I think), but I didn't like the action. I stumbled on an MP9000 in a store, and traded up to it. smile It appears that it must have been my lucky day. ;^)

Greg.
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/14/10 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by sullivang
I had bought a used Roland RD500 (I think), but I didn't like the action. I stumbled on an MP9000 in a store, and traded up to it. smile It appears that it must have been my lucky day. ;^)

Greg.


Yikes, Greg, that was fortunate! If only Kawai's distribution was more widespread we'd really have more competition in this segment of the market (and better DP's as a result).
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/15/10 08:16 AM

I just found a dealer locator for Kawai in the U.S and Canada:

http://kawaius.findlocation.com/

I hope that helps folks who are as frustrated at I am!
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/20/10 06:52 PM

I just heard from my local Kawai dealer that he will have the MP6 in stock by the time of January and the MP10 not at all. Any hints where to testdrive both?
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/20/10 09:05 PM

Perhaps we should set-up our own Kawai dealership for The Netherlands; since there's so little Kawai to find - I would be in for it; perhaps Kawai James could help ? Anyway, I don't want to buy my MP10 at a German Internet shop , because I regard it as a premium instrument , so I want premium after sales support AND I want to be able to test-drive the machine myself before purchase. And what to do if you have problems with your Kawai, or if it is not to your liking (you never know when you have not been able to see it for real). Send it back to Germany for hundreds of euro's in transport costs ?! Forget it. So let's set up shop ;-)

J
Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/20/10 09:38 PM

Kawai James. Any chance this is you? I can't play my Shigeru quite like that:



Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/20/10 10:08 PM

TADutchman, JFP, the Kawai Europe website is currently being redeveloped and, when complete, will feature a new dealer locator.

However, until the new site is online, may I suggest you contact Kawai Europe, informing them of your current location, and asking about the closest store that will be stocking the MP10.

Kind regards,
James
x

Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/20/10 10:22 PM

Hideki Matsui, unfortunately not.

That's Tempei Nakamura, an excellent young pianist who can really make that Shigeru sing! wink

There's more information about Tempei on the SK News pages (in Japanese):

http://www.kawai.co.jp/piano/grand/sk/news/
(third link on the right, below 'Topics')

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/21/10 04:29 AM

I cannot find an MP6 or MP10 to try either, as I was considering RD700NX or Kawai's new offerings. As of last week, my GC didn't have the RD-700NX either.

My nearest Kawai dealer is 120 miles away, but that dealer doesn't know when he will get the MP6 or MP10. He says he will call when either board arrives for showroom, but he doubts it will be before Christmas.

I would not surprise me if 60 percent of Americans who purchase a digital stage piano do so in December -- for Christmas. I wonder if Roland or Kawai made a strong effort to get their new boards into retail inventories/showroom floors before the holiday season.



Posted By: Hideki Matsui

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/21/10 07:00 PM

Thank you for the info. I'm always hunting for Shigeru videos/audio and reallly enjoyed his video. The Youtube videos of him playing on his Casio in Europe are a funny contrast, but the Casio actually seemed to hold its own quite well. He definitely deserves to be playing his music on fine acoustics. Even with the limitations of Youtube, you can hear the dynamics and resonance of the Shigeru. I'm sure he's enjoying it.

I'm back in the market for the MP10. The CA93 action really impressed me and the EX sound is a no-brainer for me. The MP10 has just enough more versatitlity than the CP1, while maintaining a more focused design than most DPs. Wonder if any dealer would do a straight swap? I'll have to check with my Shigeru dealer but I doubt they would need a CP1 sitting in their piano showroom.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hideki Matsui, unfortunately not.

That's Tempei Nakamura, an excellent young pianist who can really make that Shigeru sing! wink

There's more information about Tempei on the SK News pages (in Japanese):

http://www.kawai.co.jp/piano/grand/sk/news/
(third link on the right, below 'Topics')

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/21/10 10:00 PM

Hideki Matsui, yes, I've seen the clip of him setting-up his Privia in a busy European street and diving into that incredible piece. I was a little surprised by the nonchalance of the passers by, some appeared to completely ignore his fantastic playing - "Oh, there's another Japanese chap playing some modern classical piano...".

Anyway, I was interested to read your thoughts about the CA93's keyboard action. As you're no doubt aware, the MP10 utilises exactly the same keyboard technology, although the sound engine is more flexible. Did you ask if/when the dealer (where you played the CA93) would be receiving an MP10?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: TADutchman

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/22/10 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
...the sound engine is more flexible...

In case of the MP6 this may be more so than in case of the MP10, but I'm not drawing any conclusions yet, as this is exactly what I'd like to find out in practice anytime soon...
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/22/10 07:14 PM

Out of pure randomness I litterally stumbled upon a piano dealer not 15 minutes walk from where I live and lo and behold he had all the kawai's you'd ever wish for. The guy even offered to order an mp10 so I could try it out in the store.

It was dark and I was hurrying into town just check out a microphone before everything closed for the day. I decided to take a shortcut, took a wrong turn somewhere, and got completely lost. Ran around for a while to find some familiar landmark but it was cold and snowing intently -couldn't see a thing. Turned a corner and almost missed the words "Music" on an old yellow neon sign in the distance through the snow. I had no idea where I was.

Probably wont find my way back there anytime soon. I bet even kawai didn't know that store existed.


Could be a good idea to take another look around town for those odd, back-alley stores. They could be full of Kawai's ready for playing.

Fred
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/22/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by FredFabulous
It was dark and I was hurrying into town.... I decided to take a shortcut, took a wrong turn somewhere, and got completely lost. Ran around for a while to find some familiar landmark but it was cold and snowing intently -couldn't see a thing. Turned a corner and almost missed...

Fred


I was filled with trepidation, reading this - and glad that it turned out to have a happy ending:)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/23/10 01:35 AM

Interesting story Fred.

May I ask if you used the Dealer Locator on the Kawai US site?

http://www.kawaius.com/nav_links/dealer_locator2010.html

Simply tap-in your zipcode and it should find the closest dealer in your area.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/23/10 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
May I ask if you used the Dealer Locator on the Kawai US site?


Well yes, but nothing turned up as I'm currently in Norway smile
Used google maps, Kawais europe site (which locates a dealer near the capital Oslo which is far far away from here) and the yellow pages on anything selling musical equipment in a hundred mile radius. Even took my bike and checked every store personally (pretty easy as there were only two, not counting a violin maker and a brass and wind shop). I really made an effort. Ironic they were so (I still don't know exactly where) close all along.

To sort of wander into topic again if someone is interested in a very quick and subjective comparision between the CA-93 action and an aucoustic Steinway Grand I happened to spend 12 hours with today the CA-93 feels very realistic but actually much lighter in touch. The Steinway is like a sledgehammer in comparison, especially the low keys.

Fred
Posted By: Plinian

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/27/10 08:25 PM

I've had a new mp10 for about a week and wanted to:
1) express my gratitude to forum participants for so much useful information. (I am switching from a 7' Baldwin grand to DP primarily because of a smaller room but I also wanted something that was semi-portable; I had played a CA63 and a V-piano before deciding on the mp10);
2) provide positive feedback. Sounds and touch are fantastic and exactly what I was looking for, although I am probably not as discriminating (at least wrt sounds) as some others on this board;
3) ask a question about a minor irritation:

Three black keys (Bflat5, Dflat5, Eflat5) make an annoying mechanical clunking sound on release that is caused by something on the key hitting something inside the case. (The clunking sound occurs with or without power, and is temporarily ameliorated if I lift up on the upper part of the case a tiny bit.)

Does anyone have any experience with something similar and/or advice regarding a solution? Alternatively, does someone know how difficult it is to take the outer case off and have a look inside? I am hesitant to ship it back to Kawai for something that is likely to have a trivial solution.

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this is a double posting; I tried earlier, but may have pressed "cancel" instead of "submit").

Plinian
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/27/10 10:07 PM

Plinian, welcome to the forum!

Originally Posted by Plinian
Three black keys (Bflat5, Dflat5, Eflat5) make an annoying mechanical clunking sound on release that is caused by something on the key hitting something inside the case.


It's possible that the three black keys you've highlighted need to be adjusted/re-regulated. It's obviously highly regrettable when customers receive an instrument with sub-optimal movement on two or three keys. Unfortunately, this can occur with Kawai's hand-assembled wooden-key actions, however it's usually a minor alignment issue that a skilled technician can resolve in 5-10 minutes.

Originally Posted by Plinian
Alternatively, does someone know how difficult it is to take the outer case off and have a look inside? I am hesitant to ship it back to Kawai for something that is likely to have a trivial solution.


I recommend that you contact Kawai America in the new year (2nd January onwards), and inform them of the issue you are experiencing with the three black keys.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted By: FogVilleLad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
It's possible that the three black keys you've highlighted need to be adjusted/re-regulated. It's obviously highly regrettable when customers receive an instrument with sub-optimal movement on two or three keys. Unfortunately, this can occur with Kawai's hand-assembled wooden-key actions, however it's usually a minor alignment issue that a skilled technician can resolve in 5-10 minutes.
Plinian, on the acoustic forum, this would fall in the area of dealer prep. I hope that DP people don't sour on Kawai's wooden action because of minor problems. Unfortunatley these are problems which people don't expect when buying a DP.

Originally Posted by Plinian
Alternatively, does someone know how difficult it is to take the outer case off and have a look inside?


Originally Posted by Kawai James
I recommend that you contact Kawai America in the new year (2nd January onwards), and inform them of the issue you are experiencing with the three black keys.
Yep. Plinian, don't risk voiding your warranty because of what should prove to be a minor issue.
Posted By: FogVilleLad

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 01:49 AM

KawaiJames, in the states there's a standard salesman's joke: If they're going to run you out of town, you may as well get out in front of them and pretend that it's a parade.

Kawai might be wise to instruct their reps to contact customers, just to see how things are going. If alignment/adjustment issues are raised, reps could score big by telling customers that because Kawai's wooden actions are so like those of acoustics, they sometimes require minor adjustments when first being played and suggesting that they send out a tech to take care of these things. Customer service which resolves doubts is effective customer service. If prices need to be increased, I think that corporate will discover that the increase is minimal and more than offset by referrals from satisfied customers.
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by FogVilleLad
Customer service which resolves doubts is effective customer service. If prices need to be increased, I think that corporate will discover that the increase is minimal and more than offset by referrals from satisfied customers.


Very good point, FogVilleLad
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 11:15 AM

This is exactly why I don't want to order my Kawai at an online store 600km away. Unfortunately the 'local' dealer said they don't service the Kawai's at your place either. You have to send it back and then they don't even adjust , or repair the machine themselves, but send it to Kawai for service. Apart from that they are way overpriced (especially when not providing even basic service onsite). Current situation is far from optimal.

Sorry to hear about the MP10 key 'problems' ; I think they may turn out to be minor adjustment issues (it's all wooden key after all and an acoustic needs some run-in/adjustment time too !). Let's hope they fix it at your place.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by JFP
This is exactly why I don't want to order my Kawai at an online store 600km away.


How about a store approximately 6km away?

http://www.mtecmusic.com

I gather they also have a showroom - it looks like your long wait to play this instrument is finally over. Rejoice!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 07:23 PM

Dear James, as you might know - I checked all those dealers and apart from one or two on the other side of the country, they don't stock the Kawai stages. To be more particular: MTEC ONLY has an old CN21 (second hand and it's on the list for at least two years already). Furthermore, they do have NO intention to put anything else on display and have no stock. I do my research sometimes ...;-)

I would rather see that you where right nevertheless and had a room full of Kawai's on display only 6km away...

Cheers,

J
Posted By: Plinian

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 07:26 PM

Thanks, Kawai James and others for your suggestions. Since my earlier post, the clunking has stopped, but I will go ahead and contact Kawai America anyhow next week. (I thought it unlikely to be a regulation/key adjustment issue; the touch, inter-key spacing, and height are all fine, but there is/was something inside the top case that the keys were striking upon full release).

In any case, after another 3 days playing with high-quality headphones, I'm even more delighted with the richness, sophistication, and clarity of the AP and EP sounds.

Plinian
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 08:21 PM

I'm frustrated. I want an MP10, but my Kawai dealer (5 minute drive) won't stock it. I have to buy it outright. I think it's exactly what I want, but you can't form a complete opinion by a couple of online pics and audio clips. I've played the CA93, so I'm very sure I would buy an MP10. If only I could see it...

To make things worse, I can't find a Roland NX700 to compare, either. I could look a bit harder, and I think I will.

It's not as if Denver is a podunk town.
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 08:40 PM

Found a Roland dealer with a 700NX in stock! If I like the action, me buy it. I just don't want to deal with the labyrinthine problem of sampling the MP10 before I buy it, even though I might like it better. I can only spend so much effort on something before it becomes odious! But I will talk to the Kawai dealer again to see if we can work something out...
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 11:12 PM

JFP, sorry to hear that MTEC does not have an MP10 on display.

However, my point remains: there is a nearby store - just 6km away - that will sell you an MP10. This is surely more appealing than ordering the instrument from a dealer in another country.

Being required to travel a significant distance in order to play-test an instrument is rather frustrating (I had to take a train to Nagoya in order to try the Yamaha CP1). However we're talking about premium, specialist equipment here - these instruments are sold in relatively small quantities. If it's necessary to take a train or drive to another city, well, I would just this as part of the purchasing process.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 11:15 PM

Plinian, I'm obviously glad to hear that the clunking on the three black keys has worked itself out.

Enjoy your MP10!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/28/10 11:33 PM

hawgdriver, it's unfortunate that your local dealer is reluctant to order an MP10 for the store. I'm assuming they're more of a traditional, acoustic piano-oriented store, and may therefore be put off by the modern, technology-heavy appearance of stage pianos.

If you've already played the CA93 and enjoyed the keyboard action, knowing that the MP10 will have exactly the same feel obviously takes some of the guesswork out of your purchasing decision. However, I too would still want to sit down at the instrument for an hour or so, to get a better impression of the sound, controls etc.

Have you seen the MP10 videos (albeit in German...) on YouTube?

Regarding the Roland, it's a very, very nice instrument, and would definitely be near the top of my list if I was shopping for a new stage piano. If you're able to play-test one locally, enjoy the action and sounds, and the dealer offers a good price, you might find your decision is made for you.

Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by hawgdriver
I'm frustrated. I want an MP10, but my Kawai dealer (5 minute drive) won't stock it. I have to buy it outright. I think it's exactly what I want, but you can't form a complete opinion by a couple of online pics and audio clips....

To make things worse, I can't find a Roland NX700 to compare, either....


We have the same problem. Same mindset. Same pianos under consideration. Different town. I may purchase a piano on Monday, regardless. I am not seeing much alternative.

I have several Kawai dealers within 100-120 miles. The largest hoped to have MP6 and MP10 in for Christmas rush, but said they didn't arrive in time (their story).

The much-acclaimed "supernatural" Roland RD-700NX is almost as difficult. A guy earlier on this forum said he was trying to track one down in LA. That speaks volumes. What can't one try in LA?

I also agree with you about technical specs and online marketing not being enough to make an instrument purchase.

The sound signature of any instrument is personal. Some folks prefer a bright, cutting piano tone. Others may prefer a warm, mellow tone. Personally, I would tolerate -- quite begrudgingly -- some looping and stretching, if the tone was more pleasing to me -- warm, full-bodied, and mellow. Perhaps I prefer an ES-335, jazz box, or Les Paul to a strat for the same reason.

Finally, I am more wary of online marketing. Particularly the "supernatural" piano marketing has raised more questions with me than answered them... LINK - SUPER NATURAL PIANO

Marketing is often a way of stating things -- retail diplomacy. If stated another way, with a sliver more accuracy, people would be as turned off to a product as previously turned on. For instance, what if Roland said this about their vaunted supernatural technology:

"Roland Supernatural Pianos offer an organic, rich tone that combines modern, powerful modeling and sampling, reaching well beyond the usual rhythmic looping to create random volume adjustments as each note decays. These random volume fluctuations will delight and astound even the most discerning ear..."

Marketing can be accurate. But more often, it can be debunked and illuminated.

Kawai James mentioned the small market for these instruments may play a role in making them difficult to find, then try. I agree. That said, I can't help but wonder if online retailing is also changing the incentive to offer a retail/hands-on experience. We try an RD-700NX at Guitar Center, making their instrument, which is chaperoned by a retail sales staff that costs hourly bucks, a used and beat-down "floor model" quickly. Then, if we like it, we purchase a new one from RMC Audio (or similar online retailer). If you are retailer, why continue to bother?

Posted By: Scooby Hoo

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by FredFabulous
Out of pure randomness I litterally stumbled upon a piano dealer not 15 minutes walk from where I live and lo and behold he had all the kawai's you'd ever wish for. The guy even offered to order an mp10 so I could try it out in the store.

It was dark and I was hurrying into town just check out a microphone before everything closed for the day. I decided to take a shortcut, took a wrong turn somewhere, and got completely lost. Ran around for a while to find some familiar landmark but it was cold and snowing intently -couldn't see a thing. Turned a corner and almost missed the words "Music" on an old yellow neon sign in the distance through the snow. I had no idea where I was.

Probably wont find my way back there anytime soon. I bet even kawai didn't know that store existed.


Could be a good idea to take another look around town for those odd, back-alley stores. They could be full of Kawai's ready for playing.

Fred



All in all, Fred -- novelist extraordinaire -- has given me a plan:

First, I need to look for a blizzard, a blinding snow. Is fog suitable? How about rain? I'll assume, all I need is poor visibility, so my spirit can guide me.

Then, blindly feeling my way, I must find the back alleys. After wandering the seediest labryinths and haunts of my local town, I must truly, without reserve, give up all hope. I'll wander the city streets lost, mumbling like Don Quixote, cursing my abandoned GPS, and on the verge of hypothermic hunger-induced...

When...

I'll see a faint distant light. The neon blinking stare of "Bates Pianos" looms. After a few more hopeful stumbles, a lambent glow of hope appears the horizon.

The glow yields a more focused light, a cracked door through which a stream of light --and hope-- flows. I stumble blindly, reaching for the light in hopes of finding my destination. It appears to be an old motel... lacking in upkeep but still cozy enough...

I enter. I hear:
---
"Norman!!! Is 'dat uh customuh!

"Yes, Mother!"
---
It all looks presentable. Now, if I can just find an MP-6/10 or a RD-700NX....
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
x

Thanks brah,
It's a shame that my local Kawai dealer is reluctant to carry an MP10 on his inventory. It's not a winning approach to sell $2-3k musical instruments sight unseen. He has an MP8ii and maybe an MP5, and a 63, 33, 42. A few others. I have to be honest and say that I'm not sure how much longer this dealer's business will remain a going concern, although I personally wish him the best.

I tried out the 700NX yesterday, and I was impressed. I don't think the action stacked up to the RM3 I tried on the CA93, but that was some time ago. I remember being supremely impressed by the 93. Still, the 700NX had a *very* satisfying feel to it. I found nothing to dislike about the 700NX, and more than a couple of unexpected nice surprises. As a result, my decision is made. I can only root for Kawai to reclaim the Denver market with their superior instruments (if that is indeed the case). It's out of my control!

What do others say--is this rash? I think it's reasonable, but I'd like to hear from others, because I haven't pulled the trigger. Anyone else have these struggles? My impression is that I'm the rule, not the exception.
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Scooby Hoo
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
I'm frustrated. I want an MP10, but my Kawai dealer (5 minute drive) won't stock it.


We have the same problem.

Hoo daddy,
It is indeed a sad time for digital piano retailers.

When you look at it from their perspective, it's a grim scenario. You pay for the shipping, pay for the lease, pay for the heating, pay for the advertising, pay for the guy to sit in your store, and pay for the unsold inventory--only to be undersold by the RMC's and Sweetwaters of the world, who have the tax advantage to begin with.

What is the incentive to the local guy? Personally, I'm willing to pay the "local tax" of keeping a local guy profitably and gainfully in business. I like the personal attention, the human relationships, the ease of swinging by the store if problems arise, and keeping the local economy strong. But it's a bit of a luxury to purchase these things. Most prefer the low-cost solution, because money don't grow like mushrooms.

It's a bit of a sad state... Having said that, I'm happy to have found the perfect brick and mortar music store that has several 700's in stock, and is really the ideal solution to my needs. If only it was a few miles closer to my home--but it's only a 25 minute drive, so I can't be too upset.

Sorry to OT
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 06:38 PM

No I think your approach is reasonable but Kawai is a small player within a specialist market. It is a big investment for a small dealer to buy a MP10, perhaps thinking that they might have the thing on their floor for months. With the Kawai, I would buy a MP10 if I'd played a CA93 and had satisfied myself about the touch and tone...I'm sure the CA93 is more widespread in dealers. I know there would still be unanswered questions but they are pretty much the same instrument in terms of key action and grand piano sound.

Steve
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 06:43 PM

I really want to try the MP10 out. There is a dealer about 20 miles south of me that carries and stocks Kawai DPs. I'm very sold on Roland's PHA II and PHA III Ivory Feel actions/keys combined with their SuperNATURAL piano sounds, but now that I've got a dedicated light weight stage piano, I'm more open to buying something that's heavy since it will most certainly spend 95% of its time in my apartment/house.
Posted By: PianoZac

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 08:17 PM

I just called Shuff's Music just south of me here in Nashville, TN, and they are having a 40% off everything in the showroom through the end of the year, and they've got an MP10. I'm going down there tomorrow to check it out.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/29/10 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Thanks brah


I'll admit, I had to Google that one...

You're absolutely right about the bricks and mortar stores struggling against the internet big-boys - it's a real shame. I understand why it's happening, of course - consumers naturally opt for the best price - but if the current trends continue, how will folks play-test the latest instruments?

As for your local dealer's reluctance to order the MP10, if he/she still has an MP8II on the floor it's perhaps understandable. Not that I necessarily agree with this policy - the MP8II and MP10 are obviously different instruments - however for traditional acoustic piano dealers, there's probably not so much to separate the two boards.

Anyway, if you liked the RD-700NX, I'd say go for it. To be honest, I'm sure you'd be happy with either the Roland or the Kawai...they're both excellent boards, it just comes down to personal preference.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: dewster

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
You're absolutely right about the bricks and mortar stores struggling against the internet big-boys - it's a real shame. I understand why it's happening, of course - consumers naturally opt for the best price - but if the current trends continue, how will folks play-test the latest instruments?

The same thing is happening for sheet music, books, and methods, which brick & mortars also carry. Can't see enough on-line to know whether to buy it or not, can't easily browse and fortuitously stumble across things on-line either.

Whatever I demo in a store and end up wanting I really try to buy there - a small attempt at staving off the inevitable I suppose, but not doing so feels wrong.
Posted By: curt88

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by PianoZac
I just called Shuff's Music just south of me here in Nashville, TN, and they are having a 40% off everything in the showroom through the end of the year, and they've got an MP10. I'm going down there tomorrow to check it out.

I think you're gonna love it. Better take your credit card with you!

Curt
Posted By: hawgdriver

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 03:46 AM

Well, I came home today and found that my old man gifted me with a 700NX. Very cool. I might have been more patient if it wasn't Christmastime, (mainly b/c it's not in the budget!) but having the instrument in the store was a major factor in this decision. I'm sure both are exceptional, and in some ways I regret not having an opportunity to hands-on the MP10. OTOH, how can you go wrong with a 700NX??
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Well, I came home today and found that my old man gifted me with a 700NX. Very cool.


Indeed, *very* cool Christmas present! All I got from my old man was a box of chocs (which I shared around with my colleagues)... tasted good though. wink

Seriously though, I don't think you could go wrong with either the MP10 or RD-700NX - they're both really great instruments.

Congrats!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 10:38 AM

Quote: "You're absolutely right about the bricks and mortar stores struggling against the internet big-boys - it's a real shame. I understand why it's happening, of course - consumers naturally opt for the best price - but if the current trends continue, how will folks play-test the latest instruments?"

Hi James - there is a cure to this problem. There are numerous brands who refuse to sell their high-end stuff through web-shops, but instead pick out their local dealers who stock and demo the units and can offer the service and support that should be part of such a product. Just one example; Philips sells their high-end TV's (9000 series and 21:1 TV e.o) ONLY through dealers with a real shop, demo-rooms and excellent support. You simply cannot buy them online (unless it's an illegal business - haven't seen one yet). This will make sure the prices are not undercut and support for the customer will be maintained.

That said; it's a choice the manufacturer has to follow up on; with a good and efficient business plan, to make sure the products are available and distributed over a wide range of well supported local dealers , otherwise this effort will fail. It can work however; these high end products DO sell and people are willing to pay the fair price. I probably don't have to explain here again that this exactly where Kawai needs a big overhaul. Otherwise web-shops will be the only option for most people and as you can see that is not an ideal situation. Not for the customer, not for the local dealers and in the end I think, not for Kawai.

Cheers, J
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 10:57 AM

JFP, I would hazard a guess that the market for televisions is considerably larger than that for digital pianos.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 11:35 AM

That fact makes the situation only more convenient for the DP's; it's a niche market ; it's almost impossible to buy such an instrument without touching and hearing. People are screaming for a place where they can do exactly that. If they would NOT be offered the opportunity to buy the instrument online for the lowest price, after having tried them in a decent shop, that would be good for business don't you think ? They can then buy it in the shop and be serviced with the support a real shop can offer. Everybody happy !

Now the only problem is - get those units in the shops , get the personnel interested and well-trained and make sure the shops that carry the Kawai brand are wide and evenly spread over the country. I think it's a matter of choice ; how you want to put your products in the marked and how serious you are to follow up on this choice. For now, it's either the web-shop or a dealer hundreds of km away - who doesn't even offer more, or better support than a webshop. Either way - I don't think the current model is working. You can't have it both ways and complaining about undercutting webshop prices is all due to the making of the manufacturer who facilitates this.

(And I know a TV is not he same as an instrument , but it was just an example. Think of exclusive interior design articles, likes couches etc, you can't buy them online either. Why should you, you have to touch, see and feel these products in real live. And they DO sell.)
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 12:11 PM

JFP, if you are confident that such a business model can be successful, I can only suggest that you consider starting-up your own high-end digital piano store.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 02:26 PM

That is definitely not what I mean (that would mean to uphold the current situation, only with one shop added and doomed to fail) , but let it rest for the moment....
Posted By: FredFabulous

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/30/10 10:54 PM

The big bad internet guys open their own-brand store-slash-warehouse makeshift show-room and fill them with underpaid fresh-out-of-prep-school kids that know nothing about pianos.

At least that's what is happening in Europe right now.

/edit
Now while I'm at it: Worse yet are the waves of investors swooping in and buying out all these brick & mortar shops, re-open them under corporate flag or just rent them out to the highest bidder. Usually other corporate pirates. This style of middleman business model is generating lots and lots of money for a few people so I see why it is so popular. Same thing happens in nature but there they call it eradication or extinction of species.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/31/10 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by JFP
For now, it's either the web-shop or a dealer hundreds of km away - who doesn't even offer more, or better support than a webshop. Either way - I don't think the current model is working.

While the current model may not be working to the liking of everyone here, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't working for Kawai. For all we know, their sales are fully on target, and they may not even have the manufacturing capacity to make many more than they are currently making. I don't know, of course, but I don't think any of us do (except maybe James), so I think it may be presumptuous to say that their current model isn't working. There are numerous "high end" products that are not always the easiest to find or easiest to buy, but the companies and the dealers who sell their products are doing just fine.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 12/31/10 03:15 AM

.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/02/11 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
The Kawai action is superior, no question but something about the way the action and sound connect on the CP5-- I prefer it more. I guess I'm still a "Yamaha guy".


Its a issue when you "know" you should prefer the Kawai action (or the roland SN etc) but you still prefer the Yammie .... I have the same feelings.
Posted By: Dave Ferris

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/02/11 08:42 AM

.
Posted By: EssBrace

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/02/11 02:58 PM

I think you can closely identify with something even if you know it is outclassed in some respects. I used to drive VWs and even though I knew the equivalent Fords were superior, certainly as drivers cars and in may other ways too (and I drove Fords often), I just preferred the way VW did things...more than anything else it is what you're used to I suppose. There's no reason why DPs should be any different. You just have to come to terms with preferring something that a totally impartial person or objective testing would declare as inferior. It didn't matter how often I read in the motoring press how much better a Ford Focus was, I preferred my Golfs.

Do I win the prize for irrelevant analogy of the day?
Posted By: 10fingers

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/02/11 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Do I win the prize for irrelevant analogy of the day?

No, I think that was very nicely put, Steve
Posted By: Qbert

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/02/11 08:26 PM

My feelings with Yamaha CP1/CP5 action wasn't that good, because of the short key.... how to say.... excursion?
MP10 and PHAII and PHAIII excursions are simply perfect.
Even GH and GH3 are OK, for me of course.
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/03/11 01:30 AM

I wish there was some more recent feedback on the MP6.User FRANK DADDY had some positive things to say and hasnt repoted back so I guess he's sill a happy camper.
I used to have a Kawai ES4 which had to go because of the key click issue but I was actually able to create music on it - quite an engaging sound with no velocity switching.
Im think next week im going to order the MP6 from one of the internet warehouses
as thier quotes have been £250 less than the MAP price here (in the UK)and if the new sounds and keyboard live up to the hype/CN33 reports this should be a real bargain.
Due to log in/email address probs I havnt posted here in years and I'm impressed by how popular its become and how erudite the discussion is.
Posted By: Dr Popper

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/03/11 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by EssBrace
I think you can closely identify with something even if you know it is outclassed in some respects. I used to drive VWs and even though I knew the equivalent Fords were superior, certainly as drivers cars and in may other ways too (and I drove Fords often), I just preferred the way VW did things...more than anything else it is what you're used to I suppose. There's no reason why DPs should be any different. You just have to come to terms with preferring something that a totally impartial person or objective testing would declare as inferior. It didn't matter how often I read in the motoring press how much better a Ford Focus was, I preferred my Golfs.

Do I win the prize for irrelevant analogy of the day?



Actually its a very good analogy indeed I know exactly what you mean. Its exactly how I feel about pianos and also cars ...
for example for 20 years now I've always driven a MB S class sedan as a daily driver I've been told to try the new Audi A8, the new 7 BMW etc etc I drove these cars and recognized that in many respects they are on a par or even superior in some ways to the S class but a few weeks ago when it came time to order a new car ... I went for another S class. With the others the "vibe" just didn't feel right. I'm exactly the same with pianos while I recognize the superiority of the Roland SN piano system and the fabulous Kawai action to me the Yamaha CP1 "just has the vibe" .... I can't explain it its a very subjective thing.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/03/11 06:16 AM

Hello puff,

Welcome back to the forum!

As you're aware, the MP6 utilises the same RH keyboard action as the CN33 and features a selection of the new acoustic piano/EP sounds from the MP10 (albeit the PHI quality versions). If you have any queries regarding the MP6 that are not answered in the brochure or on the Kawai UK website, please do let me know and I'll try to help out.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/04/11 01:02 AM


Why thank you James wink

Actually Ive got the Spec. on the MP6 taking up so much space I think my brain needs de-fraging.

Anyway today I rang Music 4 Worship (probably Mammon) and placed an order for the MP6. Getting the baby delivered for
£1099 including a saving of £28 by ordering today as VAT goes up by 2.5% tomorrow.

Should arrive in a few days so will report back then.
Do you think I should start a new MP6 thread or carry on here? This is getting a bit long and is mostly about the MP10.


Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/04/11 09:28 AM

Yes, an MP6 only thread please - specifically for user reviews and experiences. Perhaps an MP10 user experience thread is also welcome - this thread has become overwhelmingly about the MP6+10 introduction, the way Kawai operates and lots of other issues.

I think a separate and clean thread about the experience people have with the unit is a good start for potential buyers who would like to know what there is to like and dislike about the instruments without additional noise about other brands, models and corporate matters.
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/04/11 10:06 AM


JFP- Yeah agreed I'll start an MP6 thread and copy the only Mp6 review in this thread to it -if i can work out how the quote thing works grin
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/04/11 12:20 PM

Perhaps call it Kawai MP6 user experiences (or reviews) , or something similar that covers the content well, thanks !
Posted By: rnaple

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/05/11 12:26 AM

Listening to the recordings on the Kawai website. Concert Grand. MP10, MP6, and ep3.
As we go up, it sounds fuller. Nothing missing in the ep3. Just fullness. Am I correct?
If this is so. Then the fuller sound leaves one the ability to play more expressive. Easier dynamics.
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/05/11 03:01 AM

James , Im fully expecting the MP10 acoustic piano sounds to be a notch or two above those on the MP6 but in what way is the main 'Reed' Sound on the MP6 inferior to that on the MP10?
Dose it have less velocity layers or just more memory?

Please answer the question without mentioning the words Progressive or Ultra grin
grin
There appears to be new sound demos for the MP10 up on the Kawai US website including a clav with variations in pick-up possition.

Edited for atoitous typoa grin
Posted By: Hemppa

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/05/11 05:01 PM

Does someone happen to know if a F-10 pedal can be placed between the two pedals of F-20? In the images it seems likes there's a slot for a pedal in the middle after you remove some sort of plastic part from it. Any idea? Heavy googling didn't provide an answer, but that may be be because it's such obvious thing, that no-one else needs to question it...
Posted By: kurtie

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/05/11 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by puff
Im fully expecting the MP10 acoustic piano sounds to be a notch or two above those on the MP6 but in what way is the main 'Reed' Sound on the MP6 inferior to that on the MP10?
Dose it have less velocity layers or just more memory?


MP10 has 18 different sound if I recall correctly. MP6 has 256 (or something similar to that). Make your guess... Mine is that any, without exception, of the MP10 sounds should be notably superior (more layers, longer samples, more whatever) to the equivalent ones in MP6. But in MP6 you have sounds not present in MP10. That is the tradeoff.

Which one has more memory size... who knows? (obviusly Kawai engineers but they are not gonna talk grin ). My guess is that MP10 has at least as much memory as MP6. In older iterations of the MP series, MP5 and MP8 shared the same sounds set and same memory for storing them... but unfortunately MP10 is not to MP8 what the MP6 is to MP5, so things may have changed this time.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by puff
James , Im fully expecting the MP10 acoustic piano sounds to be a notch or two above those on the MP6 but in what way is the main 'Reed' Sound on the MP6 inferior to that on the MP10?
Dose it have less velocity layers or just more memory?


While the MP10's acoustic piano sounds are indeed more detailed than the MP6's, I believe the first Reed EP is essentially the same on both instruments. However, it may 'play' a little differently due to variations in the touch curve for the keyboard actions between the two instruments, or the fact that the MP10 has dual EFX for the EPs and greater control over the amp simulator etc.

Originally Posted by puff
There appears to be new sound demos for the MP10 up on the Kawai US website including a clav with variations in pick-up possition.


I believe that Clav demo is the same as the clip available from the Kawai Europe website. The EFX1, EFX2, and AMP functions are being turned on/off with each repetition of the phrase.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 01:35 AM

Quote
Does someone happen to know if a F-10 pedal can be placed between the two pedals of F-20? In the images it seems likes there's a slot for a pedal in the middle after you remove some sort of plastic part from it.


I agree, the appearance of the F-20 unit does seem to suggest that a centre pedal could be added, however I'm afraid this is not actually the case.

In order to gain three pedal functionality on the MP10, the user should use the F-20 in combination with an addition single pedal (such as the F-10), then assign each pedal accordingly in the instrument's settings.

Alternatively, I believe CME produces a three pedal unit with a range of connectivity options which should also be suitable for the MP10.

I hope this helps.

James
x
Posted By: msaposs

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 03:56 AM

I got a MP6 delivered from Sweetwater a couple of weeks ago, and I'm quite happy with it. My goal was to replace my previous keyboard (Roland RD300sx) and MIDI boards (Kurzweil PC2R, and Roland XV-5050 w/SRX12 Classic EPs and SRX07 Classic Keys expansion boards) with a single keyboard.

The acoustic piano and Rhodes sounds are great. I've always liked the sound of Kawai acoustic pianos, and the MP6 sounds are a definite step up from the MP5. They're much better than my current Roland and Kurzweil pianos.

I'm quite fussy about Rhodes sounds - I had bought a Mk I in 1976 and have been looking for a lightweight replacement for a couple of years now. Till now, the best I've found has been a SRX12 board. The MP6 Classic EP sound sounds a lot like the EP1 sound on the SRX12. Overall, I prefer the MP6 sound, it's more a bit more polished.

The MP6's Classic EP 2 sound is a dyno-my-piano kind of sound. While I never had one of those, the Classic EP 2 sounds great to me - I'm having a lot of fun with it.

The organ tonewheel generator is not bad for a v1 product, but is not quite up to the quality of the piano sounds. For one thing, I find the upper drawbars to be too loud compared to the lower ones, so it's hard to get some sounds just right. I've already shared this with Kawai and hope that they release an update.

I am, however, happy with the leslie simulation on the MP6. It's at least as good as the one on the PC2R.

The action of the MP6 is very good, but it's also a little lighter than I'd prefer. Still, better than my RD300sx. The MP6 is about 10 lbs heavier than the RD300sx, but at least I don't have to carry a separate music stand now.

I'm not crazy about many of the non-keyboard sounds on the MP6 - they're the same as on the MP5, and often aren't as good as the equivalent Roland and Kurzweil sounds. But this is pretty low priority to me, so I'm happy with the trade-off.

I frequently play keyboard bass and am not crazy about the electric and acoustic bass sounds on the MP6. But even that isn't a problem for me - I MIDI the MP6 to the XV-5050 and plug the output into either a bass amp or a separate channel on my Traynor K4 amp.

I do love having 4 zones, though I only ever split the keyboard into two separate key ranges. It would be nice if I could assign each zone to either the lower or upper range, and adjust the split point by selecting a single key.

In summary, the MP6 isn't perfect, but it meets my needs, and excels in the areas I care about the most.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 04:12 AM

Hello msaposs,

Thank you for posting your review.
May I please ask you to clarify this point:

Originally Posted by msaposs
I do love having 4 zones, though I only ever split the keyboard into two separate key ranges. It would be nice if I could assign each zone to either the lower or upper range, and adjust the split point by selecting a single key.


I may have misunderstood what you are trying to achieve, however it should be possible to set separate split points (key ranges) for each zone. First press and hold the relevant ZONE SELECT button, then press the bottom followed by the top key of the desired split range - the new range will be shown in the LCD display. This process is explained in greater detail on page p.17 of the owner's manual.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 04:44 AM

Nice thorough review!

Too bad you still have to take your 5050 so you weren't quite able to replace everything, and such a shame to have to take it just for bass. Why do manufacturers implement keyboard split--which they *know* will often be used for left hand bass--and then not give you a couple of strong bass sounds? This isn't unique to Kawai, but it is unfortunate in what is a pretty high end instrument.

On the leslie effect, can you hear the upper and lower "rotors" accelerate at different rates when you switch from slow to fast? It sounded to me like that was missing in the demo I heard. I'm not sure but I *think* the PC2R was able to replicate that effect. Of course you could always add a Ventilator...

Posted By: curt88

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kawai James
The appearance of the F-20 unit does seem to suggest that a centre pedal could be added, however I'm afraid this is not actually the case.

In order to gain three pedal functionality on the MP10, the user should use the F-20 in combination with an addition single pedal (such as the F-10), then assign each pedal accordingly in the instrument's settings.

VERY curious why Kawai doesn't simply make a F-30 pedal then??


Originally Posted by Kawai James
Alternatively, I believe CME produces a three pedal unit with a range of connectivity options which should also be suitable for the MP10.

Hasn't this pedal (CME) been discontinued? I remember it being a relative hunk of garbage with endless configuration issues...

Curt
Posted By: msaposs

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 03:13 PM

Hi James.

Yes, the MP6 makes it easy to set the ranges for each zone, but I have to set them independently for each zone, even if multiple zones correspond to the same keyboard range.

For example, I have a number of setups where zones 1, 2, and 3 have the same range (the upper part of the keyboard, say F2-C7) and zone 4 is for bass, say A-1 - E2. What I'd like to do is to change the split point by selecting a single key, like I can do on my RD300sx. On the MP6 I'd have to change all 4 zones, which means selecting 8 keys (the lower and upper keys of all 4 zones). This just means that I can't do this live, I have to store it as a setup. I'd like to be able to do this during a performance, to adjust the split point for different key signatures and/or songs.

Posted By: msaposs

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 03:17 PM

anotherscott:

No, I don't hear the upper and lower rotors accelerate at different rates. Nor can you adjust the rotation speed or acceleration rate. It would be great if Kawai added that.

Nonetheless, the leslie sim sounds pretty good to my ears so I'm happy.
Posted By: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by curt88
Hasn't this pedal (CME) been discontinued? I remember it being a relative hunk of garbage with endless configuration issues...


I've never actually tried the unit, but recall seeing it used with an MP8II to demo Galaxy Pianos' noises:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a0ND7f7L5A

Cheers,
James
x
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 05:42 PM

"Nor can you adjust the rotation speed or acceleration rate."

I'm surprised. You can do this on MP8ii; assignable to expression pedal or mod wheel, or slow-or-fast as a front panel switch or pedal switch.

It takes some mining in the manual to find this out, and purchase of the exp pedal (not included) if you want to use it that way.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
"Nor can you adjust the rotation speed or acceleration rate."

I'm surprised. You can do this on MP8ii; assignable to expression pedal or mod wheel, or slow-or-fast as a front panel switch or pedal switch.

It takes some mining in the manual to find this out, and purchase of the exp pedal (not included) if you want to use it that way.


You can switch between slow and fast. I think he means you can't adjust what the speed of "slow" is, what the speed of "fast" is, or the amount of time it takes to transition from one to the other when you make the switch. These are all things that are adjustable on assorted other organ-oriented keyboards.
Posted By: msaposs

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/06/11 06:03 PM

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks, anotherscott.
Posted By: anotherscott

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/08/11 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow.

The interface (USB 2.0, SD) is slow, but the internal Flash is pretty fast, plenty fast to directly support sample playback without RAM buffering. I would guess that most DPs function this way nowadays.

The same flash is used in thumb and SSD drives, they just put more of it in parallel to increase SSD I/O speed. SSDs generally have a more complex wear-leveling controller as well, but wear-leveling isn't really necessary for DP sample playback, as only writes cause Flash wear.


Looking into this more (at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory for example), SD cards and SSD drives apparently use cheaper NAND flash memory, which functions essentially as a hard drive replacement; whereas more expensive NOR flash memory is essentially "ROM replacement" rather than "drive replacement" -- the contents can be executed "in place" just as RAM and ROM are, the data does not first have to be copied into "real" RAM to be used in real time. I suspect this is the reason that the flash RAM in the few keyboards that use it seems relatively meager as well as relatively expensive.

For example, the 512 mB flash RAM board for a Yamaha Motif XF sells for $150, a far cry from the slow SD card's 8 gB for $13, or even 16 gB for $80 (the cheapest SSD drive I could find... much faster, but still much slower than RAM, and still accessed as a storage medium rather than as direct memory). You can see even by looking at the Yamaha board that there's much more circuitry there then could fit on an SD card despite the relatively miniscule capacity. It appears to have what I would guess are four 128 mB chips on it. http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Flash-Board-MOTIF-TYROS4/dp/B0049P23Y8

I know, software based pianos are streaming off storage media in real time. But they also have $500 to $1000 worth of other computer circuitry in the box to make it happen, as well as an underlying operating system that supports it, and even then, it can be glitchy. Basically, if it was as easy as you say to get a huge piano sample into a keyboard for an extra dollar's worth of component, I have a feeling *someone* would have done it. :-)
Posted By: FrankDaddy

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/09/11 04:59 AM

Yes I am still very happy with the Piano. I did buy a new Yamaha StagePas 300 For my amp. I have started customizing the Rhodes sound and it is killer. In addition I bouth a Yamaha FP7 expression pedal. It really makes the Wah Wah sond work well with Both the Rhodes and the the Clavinet. I have got it set so I can use a contact footswitch control the Leslie effect. I do like the clonewheel organ sounds. the keyboard is great. My ES4 is headed to college next year. So I have no regrets buying the instrument. I also have tweaked the piano sounds and dialed them in more to my taste. So the more I play it the more I like it. The overdrive effect is pretty cool for the "Dirty" Rhodes sound. It is really been worth the money. I still play my Fender Rhodes and I cannot get over how close the two sounds. In ways I really prefer the Kawai Rhodes over ther real thing. This may be the fisrt keyboard I bounght that I cannot find anything to complain about.
Posted By: JFP

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/09/11 02:24 PM

About the 3 pedal unit; that must have been a CME GPP3. It has been discontinued for quite a while.

The follow-up looked very promising : GPP-3 V2-Grand Piano Style MIDI Pedal. However I've been trying to find it though many inquiries and throughout the year (2010) , but it's nowhere to be found in any of the listings. Too me it's a classic example of VAPOR-ware. Perhaps it will see the light of day anywhere in the far future, but it doesn't give you much confidence if this is how CME does business.

It happens to more products. For example I feel sorry for the guys who ordered a Kurzweil PC3K8 in the end of 2009 and are still waiting for delivery...
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/09/11 04:12 PM

Thanks for the Mail Franky Boy,

Im gonna start a new 'KAWAI MP6 Log.'thresd. Think it would be a good thing if the OP or a moderator could lock this one and someone could then start a new MP10 thread.
Well unless peeps wat to talk here to infinity............. yawn
Posted By: Jeff Clef

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/09/11 04:46 PM

You can start all the threads you want, puff. Mods usually don't lock a thread unless it goes into a death spiral. A steady rain of dust falls on them; most are buried after awhile and become fossil threads, waiting for thread archeologists of the future to dig them up and write PhD theses on them.
Posted By: puff

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/10/11 02:28 AM


Yeah Im just getting ahead of my self.. all excited about my new bit of technology...great analogy Jeff...just thought like ..my MP6 aint new no more so ... OK ill shut up now an go to bed.

May the Mods be with you.
I used to consider myself one once..back in ...zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
Posted By: Johnn__

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/21/11 08:33 PM

Hi,

After a very long time of looking around for a piano with a good action which can simulate an acoustic piano in a agreeable way I decided to go for a Kawai MP10.
I received the MP10 this day, but there is a huge problem, namely, the piano doesn't produce any sound.
I don't have any monitors yet so I tested it with two different type of headphones. I've read the manual extensively, still no clue.
Now this is my first stage piano, so maybe there is something which I am not aware of?
I plugged in the headphones, set the most left volume slider to 50%, turned on the piano section, set that volume slider to 50%, choosen a piano type and variation, played the keys, but no sound.

If anyone owns a MP10 and has a clue, please let me know.

Now, if I will be able to get sound out of this piano I could tell some more about the action and sounds.
The action is quite heavy, but I can't say much about it without sound, can say one thing though, that is that without sound the action makes a lot of noise (it is more noticable ofcourse) when the keys hit the bottom. This will be less obvious when there is sound, but I am certainly wondering whether this could be irritating in the long run.
Never noticed how much noise the keys of an acoustic makes, usually these sounds work.

Think this will be my first and last Kawai, first there are few dealers, so the availability sucks, and then, it seems, they manage to let this thing pass to the customer.

edit:
It could be the case that the headphone output, is broken, so I also tried the mono output (not the fixed output) and plugged it into my hi-fi installation. I used a stereo jack (I haven't got these large mono jacks),guess this should work on one chan??
Still no sound.
Posted By: spanishbuddha

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/21/11 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vinitious
Hi,

After a very long time of looking around for a piano with a good action which can simulate an acoustic piano in a agreeable way I decided to go for a Kawai MP10.
I received the MP10 this day, but there is a huge problem, namely, the piano doesn't produce any sound.
I don't have any monitors yet so I tested it with two different type of headphones. I've read the manual extensively, still no clue.
Now this is my first stage piano, so maybe there is something which I am not aware of?
I plugged in the headphones, set the most left volume slider to 50%, turned on the piano section, set that volume slider to 50%, choosen a piano type and variation, played the keys, but no sound.

If anyone owns a MP10 and has a clue, please let me know.

Now, if I will be able to get sound out of this piano I could tell some more about the action and sounds.
The action is quite heavy, but I can't say much about it without sound, can say one thing though, that is that without sound the action makes a lot of noise (it is more noticable ofcourse) when the keys hit the bottom. This will be less obvious when there is sound, but I am certainly wondering whether this could be irritating in the long run.
Never noticed how much noise the keys of an acoustic makes, usually these sounds work.

Think this will be my first and last Kawai, first there are few dealers, so the availability sucks, and then, it seems, they manage to let this thing pass to the customer.

edit:
It could be the case that the headphone output, is broken, so I also tried the mono output (not the fixed output) and plugged it into my hi-fi installation. I used a stereo jack (I haven't got these large mono jacks),guess this should work on one chan??
Still no sound.


Have you done a factory reset? Try toggling the local button. Maybe also the panic button.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/21/11 09:45 PM

Based on what you described, you should have sound. Like SpanishBudda said, the only thing I can think of is toggling the LOCAL OFF button in the MIDI section. If it's illuminated, there will be no sound.

That's a longshot. I believe it defaults to off with the factory settings.

If that doesn't do it, then probably time to call the dealer.

If you haven't already, it may be worth reading KawaiDon's post on this forum: Link
Posted By: Rimmer

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/22/11 07:39 AM

Sounds like another DOA to me... whistle
Posted By: Johnn__

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/22/11 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Based on what you described, you should have sound. Like SpanishBudda said, the only thing I can think of is toggling the LOCAL OFF button in the MIDI section. If it's illuminated, there will be no sound.

That's a longshot. I believe it defaults to off with the factory settings.

If that doesn't do it, then probably time to call the dealer.

If you haven't already, it may be worth reading KawaiDon's post on this forum: Link


The local off button was off indeed by default. Also tried the panic button, still no sound.
The strange thing is that if only for instance the piano section is on, still some buttons on the e.piano and sub section are on. I don't know whether when you turn off or on a whole section the buttons that belong to that sections should all be/go off?

Did try the factory reset, still no sound.

Thanks for the advise.

Anyway, the MIDI does work, so at least something works.
Will be contacting the dealer.
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/22/11 06:48 PM

The other e. Piano and sub section lights will stay illuminated as they were when the section was last active. The main button for the section just toggle the section on/off. You can still change parameters within an inactive section, which is probably why the lights stay on.

Sorry to hear about the broken board. The noisy action you mentioned earlier might also be a defect. Mine has a quiet thump when you play with the sound off. If you're getting a click or clack, then there may be a problem with the action.
Posted By: Johnn__

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/22/11 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by AldoEsplay
Sorry to hear about the broken board. The noisy action you mentioned earlier might also be a defect. Mine has a quiet thump when you play with the sound off. If you're getting a click or clack, then there may be a problem with the action.


The noisy action is exactly like wat you hear in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr-ezfk9FCw

Now that I have sound the noise is less obvious, but it comes more to the foreground on the higher notes, ofcourse the noise get's harder when the key is struck harder.
Since the MP8 on the video has the same noisy action I wonder whether this is something one has to get used of.
I take it you have an MP10 and the keys don't make these noises, or in a lesser extend compared to what you hear on the video?
Posted By: AldoEsplay

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos - 01/22/11 11:47 PM

The sound quality isn't fantastic in the video, and it sounds like he had the volume turned down pretty far.

But even with the volume turned way down on the MP10, I don't hear the key noise anywhere near that loud over the audio. At normal piano volume, I don't hear the keys noise at all.

Also, mine's a lower pitch thump. The best way I can describe it is if I rest my fist across my chest and thump it by just bending at the wrist (and a bit more muffled still). I only approach a Tarzan style chest thumping sound if I bang some two-handed chords at fff.

Another way of describing it is to place a thumb on the casing in front of the keys. And then with a finger on the other hand tap on the thumbnail and then a key. Should be about the same volume.
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