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Posted By: jjo Question about a chord progression - 11/28/16 05:36 PM
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?
Posted By: Eric399 Re: Question about a chord progression - 11/28/16 05:47 PM
I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....
Posted By: Nahum Re: Question about a chord progression - 11/28/16 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Originally Posted by Eric399
I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....


If you can replace Cm7 on Ab maj7, then Eb7 will be dominant and Cm7 - replacement for new tonic Abmaj7. All progression looks in the key of Bb May.

Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 11/29/16 05:24 PM
Eric399: If you can play the progression in the context of the tune, I, at least, think the Eb7 sounds fine. It's a gospelly flavored jazz tunes, with a bit of a New Orleans feel.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/07/16 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Keep in mind that is less than 1/2 the story. Starting one measure before and continuing multiple times in the second ending, the Eb7 functions in an entirely different manner.
Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/07/16 10:59 PM
Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/07/16 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?


This chart:

http://www.guitarcats.com/realbook-jazz-standards/groove-merchant
Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 12:57 AM
That's the chart I use. Forgive me but I don't get your point.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 01:13 AM
I was talking about the Eb7 function in the 2nd ending.
Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 03:32 PM
In the second ending, it makes some sense. That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending. Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by jjo

That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending.


I'm not trying to be unclear but trying to start a conversation.
Nahum(sp) defined it's function correctly in the first ending. In the second ending the first two times it appears it has a different but all together common function.

In the 2nd ending the turn around is not started and then aborted either, also the Eb7 doesn't get you back to the tonic in the first ending, it is just a borrowed dominant resolving to cm7(per Nahum), it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F) in the second ending. That two bar progression appears three times in a row in the second ending; the third time heading into the turn-around.

My question is; what do you think the chord progression is in the 2nd ending?

The discussion of one is intertwined with the other.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!

Dead right! - and that's my guiding principle in everything in music. I've no use for the idea of function. Either these changes are commonplace or they're unusual, verging on odd/unpleasant....or they're somewhere in between. If you play a lot of music you recognise those things you've heard before, or you're pulled up with a start by something that sounds good but is original or quirky. Groove Merchant is a good jazz instrumental but nothing ground breaking.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by jjo

The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


OPs' original inquiry

Once you understand the mechanics, you can identify these things in other songs.

Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I reject the premise of your question. Dom.7th chords cannot have functions attributed to them'.
Posted By: dire tonic Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton


Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I don't value your question and I don't know the answer'.

True, I'm responding to both of you but a paraphrase of my response would be "there is no question to answer".

Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 06:55 PM
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 06:58 PM
dire,

Fair enough.

I did change my post to not directly infer things to you but you must have copied it before I changed it.

If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Mike A
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.


I noticed you referred to the Eb7 as a IV7.

If you had to describe bars 13-18(through the second ending); with Roman Numerals, how would you?
Posted By: dire tonic Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb, which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by dire tonic


So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.


Yes to Misty.

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chord's function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?
Posted By: dire tonic Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chords function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?

But if your dogma leads you in the wrong direction, you need to question the dogma.

As I said, the two fragments you've cited are quite different from each other.

If RNs are leading to an error, you have to wonder why.

Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by Mike A
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.


I noticed you referred to the Eb7 as a IV7.

If you had to describe bars 13-18(through the second ending); with Roman Numerals, how would you?


||: I7 - - - | IV7 - - - | I7 - - - | I7 - V7 - |

| I - I7/b7 - | [ii7 - V7]/V - | V7 - V7/V - | V7 - - - |

| I7 - - - | I7 - - - | IV7 - - - | #IVdim7 - - - |

| I7/5 - [V7/VI]/3 - |

1: | vi7 - IV7 - | ii7 - V7 - | I - - - :||

2: | vi7 - IV7 - | I/5 - [V7/VI]/3 - | vi7 - IV7 - | I/5 - [V7/VI]/3 |

| vi7 - IV7 - | ii7 - V7 - | I - - - ||
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by emenelton
If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb, which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.


This is not at all the same as Misty. The 4th measure of Misty is a "backdoor dominant" approach to I, subdominant minor function. Not a blues IV7.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Mike A




If you had to describe bars 13-18(through the second ending); with Roman Numerals, how would you?



| I7/5 - [V7/VI]/3 - |



2: | vi7 - IV7 - | I/5 - [V7/VI]/3 - | vi7 - IV7 - | I/5 - [V7/VI]/3 |

| vi7 - IV7 - | ii7 - V7 - | I - - - ||


Thanks for doing that. Are you content with it? To me it does not resemble a chord progression I've ever seen.

Take the backdoor dominant approach from Misty and re-analyze.
Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by jjo

That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending.


I'm not trying to be unclear but trying to start a conversation.
Nahum(sp) defined it's function correctly in the first ending. In the second ending the first two times it appears it has a different but all together common function.

In the 2nd ending the turn around is not started and then aborted either, also the Eb7 doesn't get you back to the tonic in the first ending, it is just a borrowed dominant resolving to cm7(per Nahum), it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F) in the second ending. That two bar progression appears three times in a row in the second ending; the third time heading into the turn-around.

My question is; what do you think the chord progression is in the 2nd ending?

The discussion of one is intertwined with the other.


I'll try to give my thoughts:

1. I hear the second ending as:
Turn around begins: I III7 iv -- pretty standard, except the III is dominant.
Instead of the expected ii chord, however, the turnaround "aborts," using the IV7 to get you back to the tonic
The exact same sequence repeats twice.
The last time, however, after the odd IV7 chord, you go to the ii V to finish the turnaround.

This isn't a theoretical explanation; this is how I hear it. I hear a turnaround that is interrupted and then started over again.

2. I don't understand your comment or Nahum's that the Eb7 is a borrowed dominant that gets you to the C minor (the ii) chord. I'm not criticizing this; I just don't know what you mean. I don't know what a "borrowed" dominant is.
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
Are you content with it?

Yes.

Originally Posted by emenelton
To me it does not resemble a chord progression I've ever seen.

You seem troubled by Eb7 analyzing as IV7, rather than a V7 of something else, like bVII. But that's one of the characteristics of the blues. IV7 is dominant in form (likewise I7), but doesn't have the normal dominant resolution. So it analyzes simply as IV7.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
,

2. I don't understand your comment or Nahum's that the Eb7 is a borrowed dominant that gets you to the C minor (the ii) chord. I'm not criticizing this; I just don't know what you mean. I don't know what a "borrowed" dominant is.


Good question. Nahum answered it before. The Eb7 resolved down a perfect 5th. to Abmaj7, the iii7 of Abmaj7 is a standard substitution. The Eb7 in this case allows a nice dominant splash of color(with a standard dominant function)between the vi7 and ii7.
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
Take the backdoor dominant approach from Misty and re-analyze.


I don't know what you're asking. The Eb7 in Groove Merchant is not a backdoor dominant approach to anything, and can't be analyzed as such. It's a blues IV7. The "backdoor dominant" is bVII7.
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
The Eb7 resolved down a perfect 5th. to Abmaj7, the iii7 of Abmaj7 is a standard substitution. The Eb7 in this case allows a nice dominant splash of color(with a standard dominant function)between the vi7 and ii7.


Just to state the obvious, I disagree. Eb7 is not functioning as V7/bVII here. It's a blues IV7. IMO.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Mike A


You seem troubled by Eb7 analyzing as IV7, rather than a V7 of something else, like bVII. But that's one of the characteristics of the blues. IV7 is dominant in form (likewise I7), but doesn't have the normal dominant resolution. So it analyzes simply as IV7.



Mike,

I have no problem with the IV7 in blues but I just would ask that you consider that referencing standard I7-IV7 sections of songs and thinking that they are the same as the turn-arounds and vamps as discussed in Groove Merchant is comparing apples to oranges.

One time - treat the Eb7 as a back door dominant and analyze.
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by emenelton
I have no problem with the IV7 in blues but I just would ask that you consider that referencing standard I7-IV7 sections of songs and thinking that they are the same as the turn-arounds and vamps as discussed in Groove Merchant is comparing apples to oranges.

Sorry, either I just don't understand what you're saying or, more likely, we disagree, which is of course fine.

Originally Posted by emenelton
One time - treat the Eb7 as a back door dominant and analyze.

Misty measure 4 is an example of this progression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor_progression It doesn't appear in Groove Merchant.
Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/08/16 10:22 PM
Emenelton: Got it. I sat down at the keyboard (in my office!) and played a dominant chord that resolved down to a minor chord a minor third lower (E.g., D7 to B-7), which is what Nahum was suggesting. It actually sounds reasonably good. Not quite a smooth as a typical V-I, but it seems to work.

Perhaps it works well in this particular turnaround because it has the III chord (after the tonic) as a dominant, which is a nice, bluesy, sound. Yet, the III7 leads naturally to a minor ii chord (G-7 in this case). It's nice to inject another dominant chord in the sequence, thus the Eb7.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by jjo
Emenelton: Got it. I sat down at the keyboard (in my office!) and played a dominant chord that resolved down to a minor chord a minor third lower (E.g., D7 to B-7), which is what Nahum was suggesting. It actually sounds reasonably good. Not quite a smooth as a typical V-I, but it seems to work.

Perhaps it works well in this particular turnaround because it has the III chord (after the tonic) as a dominant, which is a nice, bluesy, sound. Yet, the III7 leads naturally to a minor ii chord (G-7 in this case). It's nice to inject another dominant chord in the sequence, thus the Eb7.


Your example of D7 to bmi7 is in the key of A.

That Eb7 in the first ending gives a nice dominant color splash that's outside the key center but resolves in a mainstream manner to the ii7/cm7, so it adds color but fits right in. The gm7 goes down a fifth naturally to the cm7 but the Eb7, in between them, resolves to the same cm7 in a stronger fashion.

Starting on the 13th bar into the 2nd ending the tonal center shifts to the V major.

This progression's tonal center is F:

I sus4 (this is a major sus4 chord with an added 6th.) - VI7 - ii7 - lowered VII dominant.

It does it three times in a row.

Or simply I-VI-ii-V7 (with the flat-VII dominant substituting as a back door dominant for the V7, I refer to this chord as a modal exchange) You can vamp on it all day until you finally decide to take door #1 out from your last Eb7 and hit the ii7-V7-I (cm7-F7-Bb7) in the tonic key to wrap up the song.

Eb7 functions in 3 different ways in Groove Merchant:

as a typical IV7 blues chord (Mike A)
as a borrowed dominate when it leads to the cm7 (Nahum)
as a modal exchange(back door dominant thanks MA) when it resolves up a whole step to F-sus4-add6 (per me)


excuse me I have to go back to the dentist now and have more teeth pulled! LOL
Posted By: Nahum Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 09:08 AM
Don't believe to the Real books - it is cheating and causing unnecessary disputes! Here's an extract directly from the score (A tone below):

[Linked Image]

It is clear that Db7 (Eb7) simply approach chord to Do (Edim) without specific function.

Posted By: jjo Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 04:25 PM
emenelton: Thanks, and I fully understand the three views. You're last comment reminded my of my piano teacher, who is mostly self-taught. When I mention one of these esoteric theory discussion she always asks: "And does it help you play better?"

Nahum: I think your chords are from the Thad Jones arrangement? While that's the most famous version of the piece, I'm not sure it reflects the "correct" chords.

Here's another lead sheet to look at, which does suggest Db7 for the Eb7: http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads/20090929073744_HalfNelson.pdf
Posted By: erichlof Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 05:19 PM
In the 2nd ending, the Eb7 serves as a plain old IV7 in a Bb blues. It is indeed an interrupted resolution trying to get back home to Bb, which in this context sounds good (as do all 'endless' turnarounds). It is sprinkled in for a bluesy taste. No other function.
Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by jjo
emenelton: Thanks, and I fully understand the three views. You're last comment reminded my of my piano teacher, who is mostly self-taught. When I mention one of these esoteric theory discussion she always asks: "And does it help you play better?"

Nahum: I think your chords are from the Thad Jones arrangement? While that's the most famous version of the piece, I'm not sure it reflects the "correct" chords.

Here's another lead sheet to look at, which does suggest Db7 for the Eb7: http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads/20090929073744_HalfNelson.pdf


That chart is essentially the same chords. The #f is the same as the D7. For me it does help me play better. When I can understand that second ending as a I-VI7-ii7-VII7 Thats' a basic vamp that should be really familiar, so I'll practice it until I hear that familiarity.

Even Nahum's latest example does reinforce that the tonal center has moved to the fifth degree for the first six bars of the second ending.

Posted By: emenelton Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by erichlof
In the 2nd ending, the Eb7 serves as a plain old IV7 in a Bb blues. It is indeed an interrupted resolution trying to get back home to Bb, which in this context sounds good (as do all 'endless' turnarounds). It is sprinkled in for a bluesy taste. No other function.


That was really nice. Thanks for posting it. Are you saying the chord before the cm7, 4 measures from the end of the 2nd ending, is a Db7 and not an Eb7?
Posted By: erichlof Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 05:56 PM
Hi emenelton, at first I thought I heard a Db7 in the original track, slipping down to a C7. That would be a classic tritone substitution dominant for G7. Upon closer inspection of the original recording however, they are indeed playing an Eb7, which in this case because of the extended blues form (16 bar blues rather than 12 bar blues), functions as a plain old IV7 wherever it pops up. It makes the listener want to hear the resolution to Bb, but denies that, instead moving to either C7, or in the case of the 2nd ending, Bb/F - which is not really a definite resolution.

Typically the same technique is used in classical period instrumental concertos. Right before the big solo cadenza, you will hear a Eb - Bb/F in the case of a concerto in Bb Major. It's 'sort of' satisfying, but leads you on a continuing path through the soloist's cadenza, until the final definite resolution of Bb at the end of the form.
Posted By: erichlof Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 06:06 PM
As a side note: Looks like the composer for The Jeffersons TV show theme song listened to Groove Merchant as well:



Another classic example of the 16-bar blues form. I used to watch this show all the time growing up, never realized the form until today, ha ha! laugh
Posted By: Mike A Re: Question about a chord progression - 12/09/16 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by erichlof
plain old IV7 wherever it pops up


Exactly.
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