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Posted By: Sebs Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 04:56 AM
Is this a good way to count for this? It's in 4/4

[Linked Image]
Posted By: rkzhao Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 05:25 AM
typical way would be 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah

I sometimes count 1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3-4 but it can be easier to get lost.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 06:29 AM
1234 - in this case, useless counting: you do not need so much to know the ratio of notes and beats in a measure, but the ratio of note durations to each other. For this, the rhythmic language Takadimi is used (the rhythmic unit is sixteenth):

|| Taaa -tu'u- ka-taa'a - ka- taa ' n-n-n-n ||

Commas separate quarters from each other ; and in order not to count them, you can use a talking metronome:

http://www.metronomebot.com/talking-metronome-in-four.html
Posted By: AZNpiano Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 06:44 AM
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.
Posted By: Animisha Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 08:26 AM
Sebs, you did that correctly. I think that 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah is not a very fluent and easy way to count. I count in Dutch e-ne-ma-le which also works fine when it is done a bit fast. You can use any word that suits you, for instance pea-nut-but-ter. For triplets I use mi-mo-sa. cool
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Nahum
1234 - in this case, useless counting: you do not need so much to know the ratio of notes and beats in a measure, but the ratio of note durations to each other. For this, the rhythmic language Takadimi is used (the rhythmic unit is sixteenth):

|| Taaa -tu'u- ka-taa'a - ka- taa ' n-n-n-n ||

Commas separate quarters from each other ; and in order not to count them, you can use a talking metronome:

http://www.metronomebot.com/talking-metronome-in-four.html

I have never heard or seen this and I must say it looks very confusing.


Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

I like this idea and will try this. Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature? Such as if the "C" in right hand is directly in lined with the C-E in LH you can assume it's always on the same beat.
Originally Posted by rkzhao
typical way would be 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah

I sometimes count 1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3-4 but it can be easier to get lost.

I knew that was a traditional way but for some reason I just don't like it. I prefer to avoid the "E-and-ah" I find my brain resonates with a 1,2,3,4 better. Such as a queue for me LH play on "3" then RH comes in at "4".


Originally Posted by Animisha
Sebs, you did that correctly. I think that 1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah is not a very fluent and easy way to count. I count in Dutch e-ne-ma-le which also works fine when it is done a bit fast. You can use any word that suits you, for instance pea-nut-but-ter. For triplets I use mi-mo-sa. cool

You had me at mi-mo-sa! lol sold.
Posted By: ShiroKuro Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 04:10 PM
Quote
Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature?

No. It depends on the score/music and also on the actual layout/format of the score you happen to be using.

In the case of the music you've shared here, the LH happens to be all 8th notes and as AZNPiano said, that makes it very easy to play this piece without actually counting. But many pieces are not like that at all, and do require counting (at least initially).

Before so many scores were produced digitally, move of the time sheet music would be laid out (notes lined up between LH and RH) to facilitate really seeing those connections. But if one hand has a lot of notes per measure it sometimes doesn't work that way. And also, for digitally produced scores (and esp. scores produced by amateurs like you find on MuseScore), sometimes the layout is preset (like if you're using a free notation software) and it's hard to get everything to line up well.

So counting it out initially is helpful, and then, also as AZNPiano suggested, don't hesitate to draw lines between the upper staff and the lower staff to give you some visual cues.
Posted By: Charles Cohen Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.
Posted By: Charles Cohen Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.
Posted By: dogperson Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Yes, the 1-2-3-4 system works perfectly fine.

However, the rhythm of the piano part is actually very simple because the L.H. is subdividing the beats for you. All you need to do is to keep a steady L.H. beat (in 8th notes) and vertically align the R.H. notes to the L.H. beats. You can even draw the line from the R.H. notes to where they meet the L.H. notes, or wedge right in the middle of two L.H. notes. That way, no counting is necessary.

+1.

Graph paper (if you can find such a thing -- if not, print some out) is a appropriate tool, if you need it.

The key is _keeping a steady LH beat_. Start playing _really_ slowly, and get a feel for where the RH notes fit, in that steady pulse.

I’ve always just drawn a vertical line on the actual score that links the notes that are played together. In addition. If a note in one clef is played between two notes in the other clef, I have occasionally drawn a vertical line to between the two notes

I’ve never needed graph paper.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 11:13 PM
Thanks, all! This so helpful and a lot of great tips. Also happy to hear that using 1234 is acceptable.
Posted By: Charles Cohen Re: Counting 1234 - 09/18/20 11:31 PM
Quote
. . .
I like this idea and will try this. Are notes always spaces proportionally based on value and time signature? Such as if the "C" in right hand is directly in lined with the C-E in LH you can assume it's always on the same beat.

That's _usually_ true.

If you want to see the notes represented, so that each note-image has a length on the page, that corresponds to its length in time:

That's where graph paper comes in handy -- each square horizontally represents (for example) a 1/16 note:

. . . a quarter-note occupies 4 squares horizontally;

. . . an eighth-note occupies 2 squares horizontally,


Score-writers like to make efficient use of the space on the page. If a 4/4 measure has only quarter notes, they will be written fairly close together.

If a 4/4 measure has only 1/16 notes, they will each occupy (on the page) a length convenient for _reading_ them. So that measure will be longer (on the page) that the measure with only 1/4 notes:

. . . but each measure takes _the same time to play_.

I hope this isn't even more confusing that the preceeding discussion!
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 01:40 AM
I never tried graph paper. I see what you mean.

This rhythm looks simple but I struggle to make it sound musical. Do I need to work half of the bar at first?
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 02:12 AM
The spacing of the notes is wonky, which also makes it harder to feel the proportional length of the notes. It would be better like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 05:26 AM
Atomize music into millimeters? This is crazy !
Posted By: AZNpiano Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Atomize music into millimeters? This is crazy !

Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.

Songbooks are notoriously awful for shrinking and expanding the distance between notes, so that they can squeeze in song lyrics, matching syllables with notes. The little snippet provided by the OP is just that: Look at how uneven the L.H. 8th notes are spaced apart.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Sebs
I have never heard or seen this
You must say thanks to Eurocentric method of reading the rhythm.


Quote
I must say it looks very confusing.
This is not how it looks like, but how it sounds. I would say quite the opposite: there is no connection between the sound of the melodic rhythm and the sound of "1-E-and-Ah-2-E-and-Ah-3-E-and-Ah-4-E-and-Ah". At the same time, the verbalization "Taaa -tu '(u)" instantly reflects the rhythm of the first fourth. It remains to repeat this pattern several times until it is memorized, and then move on to pronouncing the next pattern in the second quarter, including syncopation, and also turn it into a riff. After that, connect the pronunciation of both patterns in a chain; and when it starts to work, you can add a playing simultaneously.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!

I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"? It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?

https://makemomentsmatter.org/classroom-ideas/rhythm-syllable-systems-what-to-use-and-why/#:~:text=Every%20quarter%20note%20is%20called,and%20flowed%20better%20with%20the
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Sebs
I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"?

Sebs, I love that you are not content with what you get on the forum, but are actively looking for additional material. And that's what the Internet is for! I have never seen a blog under your link. Its author tries to honestly state what he knows, comparing the pros and cons of each syllabic counting system. Unfortunately, he does not create a complete picture at all (just like me - this requires a group of researchers associated with different genres and with different musical cultures). But here's what's missing IMO :

1. Ancient Karnat rhythmic language Konnakol;

Bambara as a rhythmic language in West Africa;

Jazz scat of American origin with roots in bambara;

Beatbox;

Australian Dibidibi;

Diligili - rhythmic language for young children from Germany ;

There are probably more.


2. Takadimi appeared in the 90s, when it became clear to young music teachers that the independent study of pop - rock music by hook or by crook by students had taken root massively into wide musical education. There, the most important problem was ( and remained) the reading of a rhythm that was not associated with classical music no in patterns , no in in their sound . In any case, the sound of the syllabic languages ​​of the past, with the possible exception of the Gordon system, does not correspond to the percussive nature of modern music. Diligili, invented for young children by Valery Brainin, is aimed at acquaintance with classical music of the 18-19 centuries. In our discussion with him, he convinced me that in accordance with the purpose, his language is best suited. By the way: his rhythmic patterns are called dragons . For those who have not heard: Valery Brainin is one of the outstanding music educators in Europe.

Quote
It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?
In the absence of strict statistics, taking into account general music education, specific jazz education, traditions of oral folklore education, this phrase cannot be taken seriously. My son uses beatbox to create his own music on his computer.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Sebs
I was looking for what phrases are for each note value and found this (link below) is this correct? Can you use whatever one you prefer as I see numerous charts. If you have 2 eighth notes tied I do you say "Too" or "Ti-Ti"?

Sebs, I love that you are not content with what you get on the forum, but are actively looking for additional material. And that's what the Internet is for! I have never seen a blog under your link. Its author tries to honestly state what he knows, comparing the pros and cons of each syllabic counting system. Unfortunately, he does not create a complete picture at all (just like me - this requires a group of researchers associated with different genres and with different musical cultures). But here's what's missing IMO :

1. Ancient Karnat rhythmic language Konnakol;

Bambara as a rhythmic language in West Africa;

Jazz scat of American origin with roots in bambara;

Beatbox;

Australian Dibidibi;

Diligili - rhythmic language for young children from Germany ;

There are probably more.


2. Takadimi appeared in the 90s, when it became clear to young music teachers that the independent study of pop - rock music by hook or by crook by students had taken root massively into wide musical education. There, the most important problem was ( and remained) the reading of a rhythm that was not associated with classical music no in patterns , no in in their sound . In any case, the sound of the syllabic languages ​​of the past, with the possible exception of the Gordon system, does not correspond to the percussive nature of modern music. Diligili, invented for young children by Valery Brainin, is aimed at acquaintance with classical music of the 18-19 centuries. In our discussion with him, he convinced me that in accordance with the purpose, his language is best suited. By the way: his rhythmic patterns are called dragons . For those who have not heard: Valery Brainin is one of the outstanding music educators in Europe.

Quote
It also says that many shift to using numbers to count rhythm after using this for a while, I wonder why that would be?
In the absence of strict statistics, taking into account general music education, specific jazz education, traditions of oral folklore education, this phrase cannot be taken seriously. My son uses beatbox to create his own music on his computer.

When I actively look it's not that I don't trust in the sources here, but I like to learn more and try to find answers on my own rather than always asking for help. However, this method you show me I can't find it. Do you have a chart of what phrases equal what note value? Or if you can just list them? I'd like to experiment with it. Also this is highlighting my need to work on rhythm more as I'm struggling just to play that bar and have it sound well.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 07:31 PM
How should I tackle getting this part down? Should I break it down in smaller pieces. Such as half or a third of the bar then piece together? I was able to get the intro down which was much easier as RH always landed on note with the LH. Once I get those notes in between my hands and brain seem to quit working and then it's time for to drink a mi-mo-sa. When you have notes in RH in between notes on LH is that syncopation? Is it normal for this to be challenging?

Thank you all for the support and help.
Posted By: Charles Cohen Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 09:11 PM
Quote
How should I tackle getting this part down? . . .

Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. Practice it against a metronome, to ensure that it's even.

2. Using a metronome, learn the RH part, playing _very slowly_. You can have the metronome tick at the 1/16-note level ( 1-e-and-e-2-e-and-e), so that every RH note falls on a tick), if you need that.

3. When the RH is solid, add the LH. Keep the metronome running.

4. _Gradually_ speed up both hands. At some speed, you'll want to switch the metronome to ticking on 1/8 notes (1-and-2-and), and then on 1/4 notes (1-2-3-4).

By this time, you should be _hearing_ the rhythmic interplay of the parts. keep speeding it up, gradually, until it's as fast as you want it.

The problem you'll have:

. . . You can't let yourself concentrate on just one hand!

This is a problem for all pianists, when they start. It disappears, as you gain experience, and can let one hand (or the other) go on "automatic pilot". Its muscles have enough practice to play without a lot of brain intervention.

Any of the free smartphone metronome apps (and any electronic stand-alone metronome) will let you specify a "beat", so the sound goes:

. . . ting-click-click-click ting-click-click-click

to remind you where beat 1 is.
Posted By: AZNpiano Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Some people are visual learners. Some people have to see proportions.
Musical performance is an auditory art for 100% of performers. Another thing is the transformation of notation into real sounds; there are different options: some solve problems for the moment, others - for a lifetime. For example, the introduction of the graph paper factor makes the process of reading notes heavier and prolongs, but in the end it solves a specific problem - until the next one appears.
But there is another possibility: the decomposition of the musical notation into elementary rhythmic patterns inside and around the fourth, and their verbalization through a constant combination of syllables that can be written under the notes ; with the subsequent memorization forever. This method has been used for over 4,000 years and has proven its worth. Tens of millions of Hindu musicians are not wrong!

What

did

I

just

read

???
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/19/20 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. ....
In general I like your ideas, and in particular I agree with doing it in stages with various strategies.

I was fooling around with it yesterday. I prefer to pull up the version of the RH I wrote out yesterday with a better distribution of the notes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0

I was tapping it out and yes, I do happen to like using numbers. It's not that hard to get the RH going by itself. But the LH comes on every beat once, which is exactly when the RH has an extended note, so I guess that's syncopated. You talked of the metronome to keep it even. I think for the RH alone, I'd have the clicks go for every 16h note because for every quarter note I think it gets messy. What do you think?

I also went to tapping on the table, rather than trying to play the notes in rhythm, to make it less complex. First the RH notes by themselves, then tapping the LH on the beat. I also used a different object to tap, so I had two different sounds.

I'm thinking -- practise the notes separately so you have them down pat, without worrying about rhythm. Then when you've got the rhythm through tapping, do the same with the notes, which are now solid, with the rhythm, that you got solid by tapping. Start slowly.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/20/20 01:19 AM
Thanks! I need to quit thinking I can get it down in minutes. I need to be patient but also dont want to waste time and want to get better at learning and also learn methods. Might sound silly but I still need to get better at practicing. Such as, saying ok only work on first half of bar 9 for 10 min. Then work on second half and tomorrow try full bar. I get too anxious, impatient and give up with songs but then I can play technique and work on sight reading for hours...
Posted By: bSharp(C)yclist Re: Counting 1234 - 09/20/20 01:55 AM
I second keystring's idea. Tap the bass rhythm with left and treble with right. Then silently play the measure on the table top with the intended fingering. Then try on a piano.

You'll eventually get to the point you'll just play it. In the picture above, last note with right hand, G. Left hand plays it too. Which do you use?

My first teacher had me do rhythmic exercises in the beginning, tapping left and right separately. It was helpful I think.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/20/20 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by Sebs
[. Do you have a chart of what phrases equal what note value? Or if you can just list them? I'd like to experiment with it. Also this is highlighting my need to work on rhythm more as I'm struggling just to play that bar and have it sound well.

https://yadi.sk/i/zhab86Y0G0wV4g

This is a personal interpretation. Everyone can find their own; but there are some rhythm-articulatory principles:

Since the set of syllables refers to music that is percussive in nature, preference is given to the consonants T-D, B - P.

Of the vowels, A, U, I are mainly used; sometimes for a closed sound O.

For isolated short notes, closed syllables are used: Tat, Dat, Bap, Dab, Dut, Dib, Dit, etc.

For For consecutive notes , open syllables are used: similar, but without consonants at the end: Ba ,Da, Tu ,Du etc.

In longer notes, the consonants at the end of the syllable are repeated, in accordance with the smallest rhythmic unit in the bar (but without exaggeration, like a whole note in sixteenths - Taaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaa ) .

On unstressed notes, Ka\Ku is used; Fa can be used on soft, unstressed notes.

Traditional classical La-La-La in this general context sounds completely foreign.

For pauses, M and N are suitable; and longer ones Mmm, Nnn.

For typical in jazz ghost notes, Ts is used : (triplet )Ta - ts- du dat- n-n.

According to these principles, everyone is looking for combinations of syllables that are convenient for pronouncing.

Axiom: The execution of the rhythm is always, consciously or unconsciously, preceded by internal verbalization - lyrics or spontaneous rhythmic language.

Errors in rhythm execution are the result of not understanding it and errors in internal verbalization. Therefore, internal verbalization must be done aloud; my students often found mistakes themselves, after pronouncing the rhythm out loud .
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/20/20 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by Sebs
. Such as, saying ok only work on first half of bar 9 for 10 min. Then work on second half and tomorrow try full bar.

Why 10 minutes? Write the appropriate syllables over the notes and start working on the pronunciation штышву every quarter: after four or five repetitions, you will already know; and then move on. However, I recommend the following: since rhythms are made up of patterns, and these patterns will inevitably repeat themselves in the song (this must be sought, discovered, and noted); it is worth writing them separately together with the syllables, and even numbering them.
Quote
[/I get too anxious, impatient and give up with songs but then I can play technique and work on sight reading for hours...

This is really a problem, but its solution: love the rhythm, cherish the rhythm, treat it with great respect, enjoy it - and then no drugs are needed! Don't be like many classical musicians for whom "phrasing" stands high above rhythm.
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrrilic. Shtishvoo?
Posted By: Charles Cohen Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Modified suggestion:

1. Learn the LH part (even rhythm) until you can play it eyes-closed by memory. ....
In general I like your ideas, and in particular I agree with doing it in stages with various strategies.

I was fooling around with it yesterday. I prefer to pull up the version of the RH I wrote out yesterday with a better distribution of the notes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5985r40xtuv433t/20.09.18c%20notes.jpg?dl=0

I was tapping it out and yes, I do happen to like using numbers. It's not that hard to get the RH going by itself. But the LH comes on every beat once, which is exactly when the RH has an extended note, so I guess that's syncopated. You talked of the metronome to keep it even. I think for the RH alone, I'd have the clicks go for every 16h note because for every quarter note I think it gets messy. What do you think?

Yes, that's _exactly_ the way to write it, so you can see how the two parts coordinate. The original notation was confusing (especially for beginners).

. . . Nahum may disagree.

I have a "visual style" for learning -- seeing things laid out like that, helps me with troublesome passages.

If you need a tick every 1/16 note, then set the metronome up that way. Don't speed it up, until you're solid -- and then, speed it up gradually.

. . . This isn't a ten-minute job to learn, if you've never played it before.

Quote
I also went to tapping on the table, rather than trying to play the notes in rhythm, to make it less complex. First the RH notes by themselves, then tapping the LH on the beat. I also used a different object to tap, so I had two different sounds.[/'quote]

That's a reasonable thing to do. I'd use drums, rather than tapping on the table -- but if you don't have two drums (low and high pitch), tapping will do.

[quote]I'm thinking -- practise the notes separately so you have them down pat, without worrying about rhythm. Then when you've got the rhythm through tapping, do the same with the notes, which are now solid, with the rhythm, that you got solid by tapping. Start slowly.

My gut says that practicing the notes, "without worrying about the rhythm", isn't going to help you much. IMHO, it's better to learn and practice the rhythm first. But I don't teach, and your way might be worth trying.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrrilic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
My gut says that practicing the notes, "without worrying about the rhythm", isn't going to help you much. IMHO, it's better to learn and practice the rhythm first. But I don't teach, and your way might be worth trying.
I had no order to this, whether to tap first, or learn the notes first. Simply that if two things are both difficult (if you're in early stages, for example), then getting a good handle on one, then the other, is one strategy. Trying to learn the notes as well as the rhythm at the same time may be too hard. I learned this as "layering".
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrillic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying with "coded inside".

You had written to work on the pronunciation, and then a word in Cyrillic which is pronounced "shtishvoo" - so are you saying to learn to pronounced those two syllables "shtishvoo" - or does the Russian word mean something about pronouncing? What are you saying with this?
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
... start working on the pronunciation штышву ...
I don't think too many people can read Cyrillic. Shtishvoo?

Well coded inside)).

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying with "coded inside".
Full phrase : Write the appropriate syllables over the notes and start working on the pronunciation INSIDE every quarter
.This happens when I forget to switch my keyboard from one language to another.
Memory problem.
Posted By: keystring Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 07:44 AM
Now I understand. Thank you. I thought you were perhaps compatriots. It happens often in the linguist forum I frequent professionally, where colleagues will suddenly slip in another language in the middle if two of them speak the same language.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Yes, that's _exactly_ the way to write it, so you can see how the two parts coordinate. The original notation was confusing (especially for beginners).

. . . Nahum may disagree.

I have a "visual style" for learning -- seeing things laid out like that, helps me with troublesome passages.


We are talking about two issues : 1. the problem of rhythm recognition in RH and 2. the problem of rhythm coordination between hands (the rhythm problem in LH does not exist in this example). I focused on the first problem. The second problem has several solutions, and for them graph paper is also superfluous.
1. The classic approach is to play each hand individually and then together - slowly at first and gradually accelerating.

2. Draw really straight lines (not like mine) between the RH and LH graphics.

[Linked Image]

It is incomparably more difficult for reading part of Richard Tee. Such things are best taught by ear - like RT himself , although he read sheet music and was a studio musician. .

3.The African percussionist approach : to turn both hand parts into percussion parts, and play together, referring to the SOUND of polyrhythmy and hand relationship. To do this, it is advisable to prepare the music text in an appropriate way, since there are program note editors.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 09:45 AM
I forgot to add another method related to muscle memory: to play the left hand for a very long time till such a degree of automation that the RH hand don't affect the left .
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 12:58 PM
*Not a music teacher. *

I’ve found 1234, 1e + a 2 e, and Kodaly Rhythm syllables all helpful for rhythms.

The number systems help to figure out rhythms, but the Kodaly syllables help to feel the rhythm and are easier to verbalize, especially in faster tempos.

Kodaly syllables are related to the Takadimi system, but are simpler, in my opinion. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc2RlRvYCcY

for a basic, accessible introduction.

Keep counting but learn another or two systems.There’s no need to be doctrinaire or exclusive. Use the one(s) that help most in different stages of learning. I also sing my rhythms.

The different systems support each other.

Musical U also provides good on Kodaly syllables.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by gingko2
*

Keep counting but learn another or two systems.There’s no need to be doctrinaire or exclusive. Use the one(s) that help most in different stages of learning. s.

I agree with you, just need to add: that help most better and faster in different stages of learning . And this can only be determined by a teacher who compares the effectiveness of different methods.

Quote
Kodaly syllables are related to the Takadimi system, but are simpler, in my opinion
Take a look at the whole panorama:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_(music)#Kod%C3%A1ly_Method

I use a cross between Tikitiki and Gordon, aimed at jazz and pop.

Here's a rhythmic exercise on melodica, learned only by pronunciation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=54


http://discoremoto.cheapnet.it/amssnc/CANTO_SKAT/Scat!%20-%20Bob%20Stoloff.pdf

P.16
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/21/20 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
If you need a tick every 1/16 note, then set the metronome up that way. Don't speed it up, until you're solid -- and then, speed it up gradually.

. . . This isn't a ten-minute job to learn, if you've never played it before.

I started to use a metronome with a slow tick on every 1/16 and I wont lie when there's a tie or eight it feels like forever but it's helping me get it down.

Thanks for letting me know it's not just a 10 minute job. I always seem think "I should be able to do this in a day" The rhythms are repetitive and there's a lot where the RH and LH are land on same beat so I need to stay motivated and know there will hard parts that may takes days to get down then there will be easier parts too and the best treat for me, some repeats.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
My gut says that practicing the notes, "without worrying about the rhythm", isn't going to help you much. IMHO, it's better to learn and practice the rhythm first. But I don't teach, and your way might be worth trying.

I was often learning notes before rhythm and then find I need to relearn it again. I plan to try playing rhythm with dummy notes. Such as only using index finger of each LH and RH and only one note for LH and RH.



Originally Posted by gingko2
*Not a music teacher. *

I’ve found 1234, 1e + a 2 e, and Kodaly Rhythm syllables all helpful for rhythms.

The number systems help to figure out rhythms, but the Kodaly syllables help to feel the rhythm and are easier to verbalize, especially in faster tempos.

Kodaly syllables are related to the Takadimi system, but are simpler, in my opinion. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc2RlRvYCcY

for a basic, accessible introduction.

Keep counting but learn another or two systems.There’s no need to be doctrinaire or exclusive. Use the one(s) that help most in different stages of learning. I also sing my rhythms.

The different systems support each other.

Musical U also provides good on Kodaly syllables.

What are your thoughts on using the actual lyrics? Or do Kodaly Rhythm syllables offer somehting easier to say with keeping time, etc.?
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/22/20 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Nahum
Take a look at the whole panorama:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_(music)#Kod%C3%A1ly_Method

I use a cross between Tikitiki and Gordon, aimed at jazz and pop.

Here's a rhythmic exercise on melodica, learned only by pronunciation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=54


http://discoremoto.cheapnet.it/amssnc/CANTO_SKAT/Scat!%20-%20Bob%20Stoloff.pdf

P.16

Thanks!
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/22/20 12:29 PM
This is what Valery Brainin writes in his article "Through the magic crystal - about the development of anticipatory perception of musical rhythm in children" :

"...The very fact of using one or another form of speech activity in mastering a musical rhythm is due not only to the fact that motor skills are a perceiving mechanism of rhythm that transmits information to the brain, but that such a mechanism (according to modern ideas about brain asymmetry) is precisely speech motor skills. Brain asymmetry researchers write: “Functional brain asymmetry seems to play an important role in music as well. It seems that harmony, timbre, and pitch ratios are primarily in the right hemisphere, while rhythm (and also poetry meter) is linked by the left hemisphere, which controls speech. "
Here is what VB writes about the "One-and-two-and-three-and-four-and" counting: "This approach helps to make out the written musical text", but not understand the music heard [ from my point of view, - groove].

In the same time, summarizing the criticism of the main systems of rhythm verbalization, VB writes: "... no system sets the task of phrasing, which leads to the absence of the idea of ​​creating a bar."
This is the approach of an academic musician who has never considered African and African American music; and the concept of riff is foreign to him.
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/23/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sebs
What are your thoughts on using the actual lyrics? Or do Kodaly Rhythm syllables offer somehting easier to say with keeping time, etc.?

Kodaly, or another syllabic rhythm system, is consistent and can be used with any piece of music. The syllables are chosen to be easy to say and reflect note duration.


Great to sing the lyrics, or in general to be able to sing any thing you play with an instrument. Don’t think, though, that it’s a substitute in the early stages of solidly learning the rhythm.

I delayed being precise with rhythm for a long time....wish I hadn’t, because with any skill it takes some time to become fluent. Now I have the enthusiasm of the “converted.”

It’s worthwhile to invest the practice, I think, with both the number system and a syllabic system.

Originally Posted by Nahum
Here is what VB writes about the "One-and-two-and-three-and-four-and" counting: "This approach helps to make out the written musical text", but not understand the music heard [ from my point of view, - groove].

Well stated.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/23/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by gingko2
Originally Posted by Sebs
What are your thoughts on using the actual lyrics? Or do Kodaly Rhythm syllables offer somehting easier to say with keeping time, etc.?

Kodaly, or another syllabic rhythm system, is consistent and can be used with any piece of music. The syllables are chosen to be easy to say and reflect note duration.


Great to sing the lyrics, or in general to be able to sing any thing you play with an instrument. Don’t think, though, that it’s a substitute in the early stages of solidly learning the rhythm.

I delayed being precise with rhythm for a long time....wish I hadn’t, because with any skill it takes some time to become fluent. Now I have the enthusiasm of the “converted.”

It’s worthwhile to invest the practice, I think, with both the number system and a syllabic system.

Originally Posted by Nahum
Here is what VB writes about the "One-and-two-and-three-and-four-and" counting: "This approach helps to make out the written musical text", but not understand the music heard [ from my point of view, - groove].

Well stated.

Thanks! I plan to try the Kodaly system. I never knew about it until discussing here. Looking back I really don't think I ever have done any rhythm specific work other than playing some pieces. Do you also work on rhythm specific exercises outside of pieces?
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/23/20 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by Sebs
Do you also work on rhythm specific exercises outside of pieces?


For this purpose, I use the following books:

https://www.amazon.com/Odd-Time-Rea...0769233724&pd876-4rd_r&pd867rd_r & d7-dac-d8-75-e7-d7-69-67rd_r fu0Bh & pd_rd_wg = 4Vj2z & pf_rd_p = 7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b & pf_rd_r = 3J6G0HB2SPNC4TDV8W28 & psc = 1 & refWID = 3JNC284HB2SP


https://www.amazon.com/Melodic-Rhyt...mp;qid=1600883643&s=books&sr=1-5

https://southernpercussion.com/holan-rony/822-rhythm-for-all-volume-1.html

I also have

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Sight-Singing-Carol-Krueger/dp/0199395160 ,

but I don't use it .
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/24/20 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sebs
Thanks! I plan to try the Kodaly system. I never knew about it until discussing here. Looking back I really don't think I ever have done any rhythm specific work other than playing some pieces. Do you also work on rhythm specific exercises outside of pieces?


I’ve used Sight Reading Factory for sight reading and rhythm exercises, plus lots of other miscellaneous sheet music that I use for sight reading.

Also:

https://www.amazon.com/Rhythm-Bible...1600965591&s=digital-text&sr=1-1


I’m a big fan of “Musical U” for all their rhythm, ear training, sight singing exercises. It may be more than you’re looking for, but there’s lots of useful info on their site about musical literacy in general and how to practice. They have special sales on courses, yearly, and lifetime memberships which are great deals if you can catch them.



Originally Posted by Nahum
For this purpose, I use the following books:

https://www.amazon.com/Odd-Time-Rea...0769233724&pd876-4rd_r&pd867rd_r & d7-dac-d8-75-e7-d7-69-67rd_r fu0Bh & pd_rd_wg = 4Vj2z & pf_rd_p = 7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b & pf_rd_r = 3J6G0HB2SPNC4TDV8W28 & psc = 1 & refWID = 3JNC284HB2SP


https://www.amazon.com/Melodic-Rhyt...mp;qid=1600883643&s=books&sr=1-5

https://southernpercussion.com/holan-rony/822-rhythm-for-all-volume-1.html

I also have

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Sight-Singing-Carol-Krueger/dp/0199395160 ,

but I don't use it .


Thank you, Nahum, for the recommendations. You know, your posts over the years encouraged me to do more with rhythm. Thanks!
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/24/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by gingko2
I’ve used Sight Reading Factory for sight reading and rhythm exercises, plus lots of other miscellaneous sheet music that I use for sight reading.

Also:

https://www.amazon.com/Rhythm-Bible...1600965591&s=digital-text&sr=1-1
!

Forgot to mention the “Rhythm Bible” above uses the Gordon system or a modified version of Gordon.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/24/20 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by gingko2
Forgot to mention the “Rhythm Bible” above uses the Gordon system or a modified version of Gordon.
In this book, there is no pronunciation pauses. IMO, Gordon's system is related to the English language, so it sounds well suited to jazz and pop. For classical music, it will sound too punchy in many cases; which contradicts the concept of vocalized sound production.
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/24/20 11:54 PM
I have no idea how to apply this Kodaly system. Say I have a dotted 1/16 how does that go? What do I do when I have LH and RH at same time such as, whole note in LH and a dotted 1/8 in RH.
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/25/20 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by Sebs
I have no idea how to apply this Kodaly system.

You're right - there is very little material on the internet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc2RlRvYCcY


https://www.musical-u.com/learn/talking-rhythm-the-kodaly-method/#:~:text=The%20Kod%C3%A1ly%20Method%20is%20both,syllables%20to%20represent%20key%20rhythms.

There is no pronunciation of notes sustain and rests .

BTW, I got an idea how to pronounce longer notes:
Ta, tau, taua, tauau ; etc .
Posted By: Simon_b Re: Counting 1234 - 09/26/20 01:53 PM
Hi Sebs

A lot of great information here, from which I'm sure you'll be able to find a method that works for you.

However for me, as a good reader of the notes themselves, but not a good reader of rhythms, my method is mainly to listen to recordings and translate that back into the sheet music. Virtually everything I want to play on the Piano has been recorded. So if I can't understand the written rhythm I'll go back to the source.

Based on your other posts I'm guessing that the section you've posted is from a pop song arrangement of some sort. In that case, if I was struggling with reading that rhythm, I'd go back to the original song and listen to it a few times, to get a feel for the rhythm.

Somebody else mentioned Richard Tee. I have a transcription of one of his solos which I spent quite a long time trying to play. The difficulty was the rhythm and independence between the two hands. The only way I eventually got it right (well some of it!) was listening the original recording.

On occasions I have used the vertical lines method other people mentioned, but that's really only at the desperation stage.

Cheers
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/26/20 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Simon_b
On occasions I have used the vertical lines method other people mentioned, but that's really only at the desperation stage.

Cheers
No despair, Simon, no despair! Everything is within the framework of a completely normal preparation of the musical text, both for the students and for myself. Keep using this if it shortens the time.
This I gave the example of Richard Tee, and the way how to read it from sheet music, rewriting again with a sheet music editor , because the publishers of sheet music do not take into account that these sheet music primarily wants to see those that are not exactly good sight readers.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3027352/re-counting-1234.html#Post3027352

If verbal explanations do not help (in this case), then here is the exact method of how to learn , in what order and in what portions.

https://yadi.sk/i/izRvySbHxtZKbQ

https://yadi.sk/d/5OewH_uZ3C33Iw



Follow exactly as indicated - and you will be on top! From here you take the principle and move on.
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/26/20 06:44 PM
I use Kodaly syllables to get the rhythms right on separate hands. Clap and/or say them for one voice of your piece. Combine hands slowly. Then you can play both hands but pick one line or voice to say the Kodaly syllables. Otherwise count out 1ee+a2ee, etc.

The goal is to understand rhythms at a micro level, to be accurate, but gradually count larger and larger units, until you only need to feel the pulse. As you learn a piece you will get to a stage where you count and feel only one beat to a measure.
Posted By: gingko2 Re: Counting 1234 - 09/26/20 07:04 PM
Dotted 16ths! No, I don’t say those. I’d look for how the two hands line up, if that dot affects where a note lands on the beat.

I’d say pick simpler rhythms to learn about “rhythm”...and be progressive, not dotted before undotted.

Good advice above if you just want to learn a particular piece that’s tricky: find a video, or enter the notes into software. After you gotten it into your fingers somewhat, record yourself and listen whether or not you have a steady rhythm and it’s musical.
Posted By: Simon_b Re: Counting 1234 - 09/26/20 07:05 PM
Thanks Nahum

Despair is probably overstating it!

Here is the Richard Tee solo (different to your one) I was referring to:

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-DguG1RiI[/video]

The Piano solo, which isn't really a solo in the Jazz sense, starts at around 6:10.

There is a complete transcription of that Piano part available, which I printed off and started learning.

It's all about the rhythm! In fact that band (Stuff) was all about groove.
Sadly with exception of Steve Gadd, I think they are all dead now.

Cheers

Simon
Posted By: Sebs Re: Counting 1234 - 09/27/20 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi Sebs

A lot of great information here, from which I'm sure you'll be able to find a method that works for you.

However for me, as a good reader of the notes themselves, but not a good reader of rhythms, my method is mainly to listen to recordings and translate that back into the sheet music. Virtually everything I want to play on the Piano has been recorded. So if I can't understand the written rhythm I'll go back to the source.

Based on your other posts I'm guessing that the section you've posted is from a pop song arrangement of some sort. In that case, if I was struggling with reading that rhythm, I'd go back to the original song and listen to it a few times, to get a feel for the rhythm.

Somebody else mentioned Richard Tee. I have a transcription of one of his solos which I spent quite a long time trying to play. The difficulty was the rhythm and independence between the two hands. The only way I eventually got it right (well some of it!) was listening the original recording.

On occasions I have used the vertical lines method other people mentioned, but that's really only at the desperation stage.

Cheers

Correct, it's an arrangements from Musicnotes that I purchased many moons ago. I've listened to the original a ton. I struggle with having two separate rhythms and for some reason I think the piece should be easy. I think I underestimate it...
Posted By: Nahum Re: Counting 1234 - 09/27/20 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Here is the Richard Tee solo (different to your one) I was referring to:

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-DguG1RiI[/video]
The same principle. When you will understand it, it will be easier for you to read sheet music. But of course. it's easier to start with recording by putting each rhythm pattern in loop mode.
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