...at learning to drive a motorbike.

Yesterday I had my first driving lesson. It was a bit frustrating. I had a hard time coordinating the accelerator and clutch.
The teacher told me that coordination is important; that you need to know what you want to do next, and do regular movements.
And this reminded me on tips teachers say to piano students. Coordination, focus, knowing what comes next, starting very slow... These are also tips that might be useful for learning to play the piano.

In fact, I believe that driving a motorbike has more in common with playing the piano than driving a car has. In a car, you operate accelerator and clutch with your feet; in a motorbike, with your hands.
And even in a motorbike, you can start with hands separate (only operating the accelerator in neutral), or hands together (clutch and accelerator).

So I'm a bit curious.
Are there any piano players on this forum who also ride motorbikes?
If yes: Did you approach learning to play the piano like learning to ride a motorbike? Starting slow, focus on coordination; hands separate?
In short: Did knowing to ride a motorbike help with learning the piano, or vice versa?

I did. Until I was in a near fatal hit-and-run accident when on my Kawasaki Ninja on a highway at about 65mph and broke almost 20 bones in various compound fractures, punctured lung, perforated liver, fractured vertebrae. I guess that means I know what it's like jumping out of a car on the highway. Now the wife has forbidden further pursuit of that pastime on pains of immediate divorce.


Well, considering it's given me permanent nerve damage in my right shoulder, arm, hand - I would say, no.

I'm with your wife on this. Not the divorcing part obviously that would be a bit difficult for me, just that your body has probably had enough punishment already and keeping risks lower is more important.

Haha made me laugh

Sorry about your accident.
However, accidents can also happen when you are on foot, or on a bicycle. Just a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I had a little accident on my bicycle a few years ago. Nothing too serious, but I hurt my little finger and couldn't use it to play the piano for a few weeks. But I did not give up bicycling.

Less likely to have a hit-and-run accident on a piano... unless someone tries to slam a fallboard on your fingers while wearing a mask!

I enjoy riding my Trek Domane, but I sweat a lot less playing piano Sometimes I count 1-e-And-ah-2-e-And-ah ... when pedaling.

Two similarities ..

1. They are both "hard realtime tasks". That is, you have limited time to think while riding or playing. If thinking takes too long, you've failed.

2. "Muscle memory" plays a large role in success. That takes time to develop.

The difference is that the price of failure, on a motorbike, can be very high.

Sadly, one can do everything right on a motorcycle, and yet still fail because those around you fail.

I've had my share; most recently nice Triumph Triple. No more for me; too old, reflexes aren't as quick, not as strong, and too many bad drivers around here. No I feel there is no correlation. FWIW, my car still has, and will always have, 3 pedals.

This is a huge problem. Ive ridden and spent many years in local news covering accidents with traffic. Its just too dangerous. Around here wild animals (and people) cause alot of problems.

Yep, I got my motorcycle license in 2008, at the ripe age of 33. Actually I had already been riding scooters and small motorbikes since I was 16, but I needed a license to be able to ride abroad. I went to Paris on my 125cc - it took me 3 days but how fun!

My current bike was flooded 2 years ago - I rebuilt the engine completely last summer, but it still has some problems and I haven't ridden it for ages. But today I reactivated my insurance policy, so there's hope. Still, even riding a small bike is dangerous and frustrating in the Italian traffic. Once I was cut off by a car, hit my head on the ground (no helmets back then!) and broke a wrist. At least I didn't play the piano at the time.

Using clutch and gears definitely requires some coordination, but it's so much easier than playing the piano! It soon becomes second nature.

I've been riding bikes most of my life. I got my first dirt bike when I was around 12. As an adult I only rode dual sport bikes (bikes that can go both on and off road). I love the feeling of riding off road somewhere and then transitioning to pavement and cruising down the highway at 80mph. I currently don't own a bike due to financial reasons and ironically, (based on the subject of this thread) piano playing. I had three vehicles paid off (two cars and a bike) and my wife crashed her car (she was ok), so I sold my bike to buy her a new car. Now I've got no bike, but I do have a nice piano.

I can't compare riding a bike and playing the piano because I learned to ride a bike when I was a child. So most of the time the amount of brain energy that went into riding a bike was very minimal. It was actually very relaxing, unless I was riding a technical trail. So I really never thought about delayed apex turns, counter steering, engine breaking and shifting, etc., all that stuff happened automatically. Kind of like an experienced piano player playing a simple song. He/she probably doesn't have to think about it much because their hands naturally move the way they are supposed to.

Since I only started learning the piano a few years ago, nothing I do on the piano is really easy. It seems like every song I play takes 100% of my brain power just to put my fingers on the right keys. I wish it was like riding a bike and I could just play without having to think so hard about it. I can't even really get lost in the music I play no matter how connected I am to the song because I'm concentrating so hard on hitting every note. I wish I would have started piano when I was young. I'd like to get to the point where I can just enjoy playing without thinking so hard about it. I'm hoping that happens before I die.

Here is the last bike I owned but sold to buy my wife a new car. It was the favorite bike I ever had. BMW F800GS.




If I didn't buy an N1X, I'd probably still be riding a bike. However, I can't afford both.

God Bless,
David

That's my kind of bike! I have an FXS4. I hope to one day have a piano that I love as much as I love my bike.

I had a Honda Super 90 in or around 1969 but I was too young to consider failure an option. It did take some practice.

But I learned to fly in the 70s and I often see parallels to learning piano. Both seem to require a LOT of work and moving on towards goals that seem impossible at times. You also get stuck into close quarters with a teacher you better enjoy. And it seems like a very large percentage of people give up, though I don't have stats on either.

I started riding a motorbike when I was around 16 and did it for at least 15 years (and I've been playing the piano since around 10 until today).



You start slow, with a small bike (easy piano piece) possibly with an instructor near you (piano teacher). But then it's so much different. Learning to ride a motorbike takes few hours for the basics, and a couple of months to get comfortable. Then you are done, you just keep riding. So much different than tackling new and more complex piano pieces.



In my case: no. I can't see a relationship.

Falling off a piano stool is considerably less likely to result in compound fractures!

You're telling me! My wife is much happier now that I've taken up piano and have stopped bugging her about replacing my motorcycle.

(I completely blame it on my autonomous nervous system that my salivary glands still kick into overtime when I see a photo of a BMW S1000RR)



<sigh>

(Sighs are also autonomous! )

I suspect that switching from the Honda CBR600 of my biking days to my current Yamaha P-515 was probably a smart move, health-wise, and just as much fun .

I started riding dirt bikes when I was a kid. Cancer and treatments for it left me too busted up for dirt bikes or sport bikes, so now we just cruise with the guys and gals in our motorcycle club. (Pilau MC) The current stable is a 1993 H-D Fatboy with an S&S motor and a 2012 H-D Tri-Glide trike. Retro as heck, but fun.

I got into enough trouble on my 'mountain bike' (VTT - Vélo Tout Terrain here in France). A bit of off-road riding, went over a unexpectedly large bump whilst standing on the pedals (idiot). This was never a problem on the racing bikes I'd used for years which I also rode off-road a lot, but with the fat tyres on the mountain bike the thing rebounded and hit me one heck of a whack in the crutch. It was so violent that it was years before I could really sit comfortably again on anything, hence no piano. Seems OK now, I can sit down again and muscles are OK although veins not so good - trying to get back playing the piano is proving difficult, however. I gave the bike away (my wife insisted I got rid of it) to someone planning to cycle the local canal paths; hope he didn't go over too many bumps or the little b would have got him too. Pity - it was a nice red one..... Sigh, still miss it but have never cycled since - just getting less and less fit

I found being a typist in the past, helped my with the keyboard , and reading music .

There's your problem. You ride a Ninja and you're pretty much destined for a horrific accident.

As you are someone who owns a Japanese piano, I hope this is not any anti-Japanese motorcycle sentiment I hear

Interesting connection. I learned to type a few decades ago and achieved a speed of 40WPM on a mechanical typewriter. By the time computers came along my speed went up to over 60WPM. That was years before I got into playing piano / keyboard. Once a cousin who took piano lessons commented that I have good hands like somebody playing piano. Typing you are aiming for the right keys with the fastest possible time. With music playing you do aim for a steady tempo like typing but raw speed isn't usually the case especially when playing a slow movement.

A typing keyboard is divided into 5 rows of keys while a piano keyboard has just 2 rows and extends much further on both sides. The arm, wrist and hand movements are not the same and your hands shift from L to R. And you're supposed to be playing with graceful gestures than in a mechanical / robotic way. When it comes to reading we're not reading the English alphabet but circles & lines unless the letter names of notes are written into the score.

Somebody in the family made the association that hand movements for typing is similar to piano playing doesn't mean it is a straightforward transition like 1 day you're typing, the next day you learn to play piano sort of thing. The 1 thing both of them have in common is accuracy hitting the keys...

Typing - this helps me with having a good spatial relationship so you can reliable find non-adjacent keys without looking at the keyboard. Motocycle - I have put 50,000 miles on a motorcycle over the last 8 years and do not see any relationship to piano - maybe patience....

Being able to type well and playing piano complement each other. In my school days I got into playing violin. For many years I thought that I would be stuck with that instrument. Once somebody in the family noticed that I have an interest in music and suggested that I take music appreciation classes at the local conservatory. I ended up with a teacher playing piano. I had a few lessons at a young age and didn't get anywhere. Within a month piano was out of my life for good. A few decades later I got myself a keyboard and started playing it. I've been at it since.

Being a good typing is 1 thing but initially didn't convince me to make the leap into piano playing. The equation is probably more true for people who plays piano at an intermediate to advanced level are also good typists but not everybody who can type well plays piano.

It is probably more the case for fast typists that they are more likely to have RSI (repetitive strain injury) than those who play piano well. In order to play well you need to use motions that allow you to reach different keys with the least amount of effort like arm rotation. People who do data entry for a living especially with a numeric keypad their hands are fixed in 1 position all the time they may end up with RSI.

I learned typing as a child, and playing the piano as an older adult. Oh how I wish it was the other way around! I type really fast, and I play the piano really slow.
Well, not that slow, but fast pieces are a struggle.

I don't know if I ever compared typing to pianoing. I was forced to take typing in college. I hated it, the teacher and I disliked each other, and it nearly killed me. I got an A but was up to a couple of hours of practice per day by the final test, and the final test was what determined your grade. (The ashen look on that woman's face when she clicked her stopwatch and saw that she would have to give me an A if I didn't go over the error limit was nearly worth the effort.) I can type about 60 words per minute if no one is watching. Maybe it is like piano! It's very hard for me and I can only do it if no one is watching.

Now did typing forge any kind of neural pathways that help with piano? I just don't know. I certainly have seen my brain confuse the two. I use some training software and I have a monitor on the wall in front of me and a computer keyboard just on the other side of the digital piano. I have caught myself starting to compose an email reply with the piano...

When I learned to type years ago, I had a old computer with barely 64K RAM. And 1 of my first programs was a typing tutor. Sort of like people learning to play piano with Piano Marvel. Practiced on the keyboard for the whole summer and ended up passing the typing course easily.

My journey with the piano came years later with a change of attitude. Coming from a non-musical family, when I was younger, my parents decided that nobody in the family had the talent for music. Nobody in the family would get a teacher to learn piano. I'm the only exception. Nobody in the family encouraged me to get into playing music so I waited until I moved out before getting my first piano keyboard.

My parents didn't grow up with the computer or cellphone around. Mom learned to use a cellphone and an iPad in her mid-80s. A decade ago computer skills included typing but nowadays people can send & receive Email with a touch screen without the hassle of touch typing. Learn to play piano? I don't think mom & dad would even get into it. People tend to perceive computer skills as an essential because we rely on our electronic devices for news & info but playing piano is more of a personal hobby.

When it comes to typing there are 2 kinds: touch typist and 2-finger typist. Someone in the family worked in the computer field as a Technical Support Technician for many years and never acquired proper typing skills but he was good at the keyboard with just 2 fingers. Unless your job requires that you type documents people can get by as a 2-finger typist. I don't think anybody would get by playing the piano with just 2 fingers unless he/she have hands with missing fingers.

Before I got cancer, I was a software engineer. In my career I wrote many thousands of lines of code, but never did learn to touch type. Wish I had though. I can't begin to imagine how many hours I've wasted on debugging typos.

I could be called a software engineer, whatever that is. Spend my work day programming.

I can touch type, but for much of programming I don't think it is that much more productive than being a two finger pecking typist.

My touch typing comes into its own when writing text like this. There is just too much that is different with programming than writing for touch typing to add hugely to being productive. It helps but so many characters you need are not just upper or lower case letters. I can type those without looking but they are clumsier and slower to reach from the default touch typing hand positions.

Retired developer here. Not retired, just out of that biz. Most of the men I worked with never learned to touch type. I only did because it was forced on me. I don't feel it impacted their productivity. Well, maybe a tiny bit once email came along.

One thing I noticed was that in 30 plus years I never saw one developer learn to touch type if he didn't start out that way. Once they get to about 40 wpm with 2 fingers they aren't going to spend endless hours typing ASDF just to learn to email without looking at the keyboard. Maybe there is a parallel there to what the piano teachers say about breaking bad habits and reteaching someone who started on youtube, et al.

Another programmer in a past life. I learned to touch type in school when nothing fit my class schedule except an introduction to business class, and I didn't know that business meant learning to type. LOL. I have not found any of the typing skills useful for programming. One programs in one's mind, not one's fingers most of the time (I make an exception for COBOL programmers! LOL)

Oh dear - me too. I started in ICL's 'assembly' language and those of us using it looked on COBOL in that way too. Still, I did use COBOL occasionally, but only when nobody was looking

Another programmer here! I'm currently finding myself endlessly facing keyboards. The one I visit after work gives me much more pleasure, the one at work is means to an end to some extend (after 25 years of going at it full time).

p.s. Sorry for OT, I don't ride a motorcycle, but my husband does. Love wind on my face though. Feel like a dog who sticks his head of the car window.

No problem about the OTs.

I work for a software company myself. I learned to touch type at University, shortly before writing my final paper. I learned on a typewriter, which means that today when I type on a computer, it's noisy.
What I also notice is that when I type on a computer keyboard immediately after playing the piano, I have a short moment where I have trouble to adjust. Not the same size and feel.
But I have the subjective impression that the adjustment is more difficult when switching from a digital keyboard to a computer keyboard, then when switching from my grand piano keyboard to a computer keyboard.

Of course, that impression could be entirely in my head.

I agree that much coding isn't really amenable to touch typing, but it would be nice to be able to type boilerplate code, like loop conditionals, without making stupid little mistakes. The coders I know who can touch type spend way less time rooting out little typos in stuff like that.

I’m a programmer too. I’ve spent the last nine years writing iOS apps. I guess I never really learned to touch type but it never really slowed me down. In XCode, all loop constructs and conditionals are created by autocomplete, I type very few characters for anything. All variables are also autocompleted.

I had learnt touch typing through a game. With piano, it has not helped me much other than the psychological benefit in the beginning, that it’s possible to play the notes without looking at the keyboard. It does help with all kinds of typing, programming or otherwise. But the real speed benefit in programming, I feel, comes from knowing the IDEs well, and getting quick with all the keyboard shortcuts and autocomplete features they provide.

One thing about touch typing that does help with programming, is catching the typos as and when they happen. In IDEs, it’s not much of a problem. But a few of my past jobs have been for start-ups, which were often in fire fighting mode. Many a times I’d have to write and run a quick script directly on the server, or change some other configuration asap, for which I’ve gotten used to vim. In these scenarios, typos matter a lot. More than anything else though, focus matters here, and speed and muscle memory can even have a negative effect sometimes. In one of my earlier jobs, I made the typo crontab -r instead of crontab -e, and hit enter before I could stop myself (this deletes all the scheduled jobs instead of opening the editor). Warnings or backups were not configured on the server. So a horrible, terrible day for me and my poor teammates

How horrible, I feel for you Tech-key! It happens to me sometimes that when I close a document and get the question if I want to save it, I click on Don't save. Why????
But at work, your signature could be: Think twice, type once!

Many years ago, I had an employee explain to me in a different system why it was that he lost a day's worth of changes when he accidentally typed "delete" on some files, and when it said "Are you sure?" he answered "Y" His peers were more mad at him then I was.

Yes, that has happened to me in the past, and I legit cried many times Then I kept pressing Ctrl+S every few lines, to the extent of paranoia. Now, finally it has gone automatic. LOL at the signature comment

Tyrone, I get your point. Haha. My boss was totally cool with it. Called it human error and moved on. But my teammate from devops was mad, coz he had to dig log files all morning on a Saturday. They still pulled my leg about it sometimes, as I later worked with both of them in a different company.

I've heard both first hand and second hand stories like this. Sounds a bit fishy, if on a local system. In similar first hand stories I've heard, there was always some level of intoxication involved lol. But still the changes were always backed up somewhere. Programmers tend to be very paranoid about this stuff. Which probably explains why his peers were mad..

Yes, that's why it was only a day's worth of changes. BTW, this was in the late 80's and the changes were being backed up in a system called SCCS, but not continuously and not instantaneously. DevOps has come quite a ways since those days.

Ohh, ok

Sometimes exactly the same happens when I play the piano. I know what I should play, Oh I Know It, yet, it is as if there is a tiny devil ruling my fingers and it hits the wrong key!

Yes, this happens with me too Another thing that annoys me a lot is that, sometimes the very sight of my fingers playing the notes, throws me off. I don’t know of any other way to counter this other than just practice a few times, staring intently at the keyboard. Is this also a common problem?

I don't think you need intoxication for that.
Decades ago, before computers had hard drives, I borrowed a floppy disc from a fellow student, to copy his files on my empty floppy disc.
What I ended up doing was copying my empty disc on his full disc. Luckily he had a copy.
And I wasn't the only one who made this type of blunder.

And even with hard drives, accidents like this can happen; like when you notice that the disc space on the net drive is almost full, and you decide to delete a few folders to make space and end up deleting the current work folder, and find out that the net drive doesn't have a backup system...

With computers, just like with pianos, or motorbikes, or other technical devices, when there's a problem, the source of the problem is very often in front of the device.

I’ve done the toothpaste on face, face-wash on toothbrush without being intoxicated. So I guess you’re right. Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong


LOL. I’ve never ridden proper motorbikes, but only the light weighted scooters. I’ve had two major falls with injuries, and both on my own accord. No one ever hit me. Once I skidded on sand, and then once on rain water.

I'm finding this thread interesting because I pretty much chose learning to play the piano over learning to ride a motorbike… But now I'm thinking, it would be cool to ride though!

Last year, I was all over learning to ride. I did my one-day 125cc riding training, loved it, then bought a tired second-hand Yamaha SR and even passed my theory test (this is in the UK) so I could take my full license in the summer.

And then…

The bike I bought had no end of problems. Some technical, some administrative. Every time it seemed like everything was in place for me to just ride, there was a problem: bike papers getting lost in the post, bike suddenly not starting for no apparent reason, tyres needing changing after I'd been told they were fine, two brand new batteries just dying forever while in it… You name it. My husband then felt it would be appropriate to say that he thought "I shouldn't ride a bike because the universe was trying to deter me and that I should listen or I'll die on it"… After I told him off for such talk, I must admit I wasn't even into riding anymore, so the bike is rusting in a garage somewhere. This happened at the same time as I got back into music learning.

So, I thought: maybe this is for the best. I can spend all the money I would have spent on riding on piano lessons instead. I can keep my hands for playing and doing everyday things with, rather than losing the ability to use them in an accident, and I can play indoors rather than getting wet inside the rider jacket and out (UK weather).

But now the summer is coming again and I'm thinking: shall I give riding another go? It could be fun. I have another year before my theory test pass lapses. It's just that it feels indulgent AND dangerous — so, perhaps not entirely reasonable. I don't have anywhere to go on the bike (I work from home), and I know too many stories of nasty, nasty accidents… Was sorry to hear of Tyrone's up there too.

So, all my best wishes to players and riders out there who take the risk all the time — make sure to invest in super good gloves! And never be in a hurry, just like when you play!

That's good advice. The proper gear can help mitigate injury in the event of an accident. Just like having the proper piano technique can help avoid injury, the proper gear can help you walk away from a simple low side get-off. So many people are hamburger meat after a simple slide because they ride with a t-shirt rather than the proper protective gear.

The quote is repeated in the digital piano forum to "get the best action you can afford." The same applies to protective gear. Get the best you can afford. I've been partial to this brand over the years.

God Bless,
David

Although gloves, while helpful and recommended, will only do so much when you are in a full stoppie and a rogue car takes out your front wheel @ 60+ mph so you have a highsider & many broken bones.

I hear ya.

I was never under the illusion that some padding was going to save me from an impact with a several ton vehicle. However, I believe more motorcycle accidents are single vehicle accidents from rider error or surface hazards, etc. Protective gear can help you to walk away unscathed from many oopsies, like coming into a turn too hot and high siding from the front tire washing out.




My gear has saved me more than once.

God Bless,
David

I had a great time on motorcycles and used to really love them. I'm fine with being called a coward but I just don't think I'll ever ride on the streets again unless our distracted driving culture changes. I walk a lot and I see bone chilling stupidity out there every week, close up.

Bumping this thread for an update.

I have taken 9 hours worth of driving lessons so far, and today for the first time on the big motorbike with which I'm supposed to take the final test (which is still far away): A Honda CB 650 F.
The teacher said some encouraging words about my progress. Biking is starting to be fun.

But in the end, I don't know if learning to drive a bike and learning to play the piano have that much in common.

What they definitely have in common is that you need discipline and concentration to get better, and in order to make progress, you have to basically do three things: Practise, practise and practise.
And starting slow and getting faster step by step is also something that reminded me of some piano practise sessions. Slalom at 30 km/h on your first try? Might as well try to sight-read a piece by Chopin or Rachmaninoff at full speed. But starting at below 20 km/h, and getting faster slowly... That's more like it, and getting faster slowly works for the Chopin Scherzo I am currently practising.

Thanks also to all your input when comparing pianos and bikes.

Bumping this thread again, for a shameless self-promotion. I got my driver's license today.
To celebrate, I made a video. Playing a song by German vocal group "Wise Guys", about "Deutsche Bahn" (German railways). My experience with railway companies made me want to learn to ride a motorbike.

Oh what fun! Good job!

Pat
Fun indeed and well done
Congrats on the driver’s license as well

Congratulations and it is fun indeed!

Congratulations on your motorcycle license!

I'm also a fellow rider and touch typist. I honestly think the only thing all three have in common, is our determination and passion. Learning any of those without it would be a mess. LOL

Loved it! Great job PatH, and congratulations on your driver's license!