Piano World Home Page

Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions

Posted By: AB Forum Recital

Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 02:35 AM

Recital #34 is now open for submissions!

Believe it or not, it’s time for the 34th quarterly “Beginners and Beyond” recital hosted by the Piano World Adult Beginners Forum! smile The recital will be posted some time on the 15th of May, which means that the submissions must be in by 9:00 pm Eastern Daylight Savings Time, May 14. Please note this deadline is very firm; I cannot start working on the recital until it is closed, and once it is closed, no new entries can be added.

While any and all styles of music are welcome, we do ask that it be piano related. Only one recording may be submitted per forum member (although that recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces).

If you are fairly new to the piano, please do not be intimidated by some of the talent here in the ABF. We all consider ourselves to be beginners even though we may have been playing for some time. And, we LOVE to hear recordings from folks new to the keyboard. So even if you’re on your first Alfred’s method book, we would *really* enjoy hearing from you. heart

Recital submissions must be in MP3 format. The maximum size of the file is 20 MB. We recommend encoding the recording at 192 kbs with a constant bitrate, as that works best with the online streaming player. At that bitrate, a 20 MB file works out to be about 7-9 minutes in length. Your recording will be normalized when placed in the consolidated zip files, but your original link will still be available for those who want it.

If you are new to recording your music, there are several threads in the forum archives that address the ways and means. See the "Important Topics in the AB Forum" thread stickied at the top of the AB forum page. Audacity is an excellent free recording application that can be used.

If you’re new to the forum and the recitals, I encourage you to browse through a few of the past recitals to see what they’re like. An easy way to find past recitals is to use Sam S.’s extremely helpful recital index, located here:

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


Submitting Your Recording:

We will be using again the absolutely marvelous automatic web-based recital program that mahlzeit wrote for us. You will upload your mp3 file to the recital server as part of the recital submission process.

When you have your mp3 file ready, go to:

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/


and follow the instructions there. Please note that this URL reflects our new permanent home for all the recital files. Once you have uploaded your info to the automated recital software, you will receive a confirmation e-mail. You will have the opportunity to revise your submission any time up until the deadline. If you have any problems at all using the new website, or if you do not receive a confirmation e-mail within a few hours, just PM me. If you have not participated in past recitals using this software, I strongly encourage you to submit your recital piece at least a day in advance in case you run into any problems with it.

The recital website uses the following submission template to be filled out along with your attached music file. You may want to have your responses to these fields prepared in advance so all you have to do is cut and paste:

Performer's Name: {forum ID and real name if you’d like}
Where you are located: {optional}
Avatar image link: {optional}
Experience: {Yrs/Mos of piano playing experience}
Link to YouTube or other video: {optional}
Home page link: {optional}
Title of piece/composer:
Source of music: {sheet music, improvised score, play-by-ear, etc}
Instrument used: {Piano make, keyboard model, etc.}
Recording method: {audacity, Zoom, digital to PC, etc.}
Constructive technical feedback wanted: {Yes/No}
Additional Info: {Your thoughts on the piece, what you had for lunch, etc.}


The due date for all submissions is 9:00 pm US EASTERN TIME on May 14, 2014.


Did I mention that the 9:00 pm deadline was firm?

Think "consistency of concrete." smokin

By submitting a piece to the recital, you are certifying that it is a recording of your own performance.

Again, the recital order will be presented in the order the pieces were received, so the sooner you send in your piece, the higher you will be on the list! You can revise your entries on the template (e.g., thoughts about your piece, adding YouTube links, and the like) any time and not lose your place in the recital queue, but if you resubmit your recording at any time, for any reason, you will be bumped to the end of the list.

Should anyone have any questions at all on what to do or how to do it, this is the place to ask. Remember, there are NO stupid questions, as we have a steady flow of new members in AB Forum for whom this is their first recital, so your questions will probably help to eliminate other members’ problems. Please ask away! smile

Let's all go out and brave that Red Dot and share a lot of beautiful music! thumb
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 02:48 AM

Monica, does it matter that the rules for this recital seem to include some from the previous themed recital, namely:
Quote
This is a themed recital. To participate, you must first sign up replying to this thread: Tchaikovsky Themed Recital: April 2014
Posted By: dynamobt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 02:48 AM

I'm in at NUMBER ONE!!!!!!!
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 02:53 AM

I'm number one! I'm number one!

*refreshes page*

...I'm number two! I'm number two!
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Monica, does it matter that the rules for this recital seem to include some from the previous themed recital, namely:
Quote
This is a themed recital. To participate, you must first sign up replying to this thread: Tchaikovsky Themed Recital: April 2014


Dagnabbit. I forgot to change that back from the Tchaikovsky recital! cursing

It should be fixed now. Sorry about that.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 03:02 AM

I'm number three! I'm number three! Unless I decide I get a better recording a few days later and change my submission.... Although being in the top 5 is definitely a first for me, which is its own motivation for just keeping this recording.
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I'm number three! I'm number three! Unless I decide I get a better recording a few days later and change my submission.... Although being in the top 5 is definitely a first for me, which is its own motivation for just keeping this recording.


No worries, I just listened to dynamobt's recording and I think the audio file must be badly corrupted. It probably needs to be updated wink
Posted By: Anne H

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 03:33 AM

Wow, y'all were fast! I just got back from dinner and I'm already at number 5.
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 04:02 AM

I'm in again!

But the title looks quite crappy :-(

Monica, it seems the webpage throwing up over the "ä". Will it turn up ok in the final page? Or do I need to use a special code for it?
Posted By: SwissMS

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 06:10 AM

I am in at 9. Here in Switzerland we have to get up quite early to compete with US evening time zones! I am happy to be in the top ten. This will be my 10th recital! There is already some wonderful music submitted! I cannot wait to hear it.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by wouter79
I'm in again!

But the title looks quite crappy :-(

Monica, it seems the webpage throwing up over the "ä". Will it turn up ok in the final page? Or do I need to use a special code for it?


Maybe just edit by substituting ä with ae.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 06:23 AM

Sorry for the questions. I'm new to the QR. What happens next? How do I read / listen to the entries that's there?
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 07:08 AM

Well, today Mrs Hunky and I entered our 'transition period'. This is a time when a lot of things happen for us. For one, I leave 100* + daytime temps and enter below freezing night time temps due to being at nearly 8000 ft elevation.

I leave my okay sounding digital piano and get absolutely blown off the bench with the ridiculous power of the Mason & Hamlin BB. Seriously, the difference is just crazy. Lets just say I'm glad the roof shingles on the house are screwed and not nailed! WOW!

This is also the time of year my internet connection gets to the point of near unbearability! My current satellite [and only available internet connection] is so pathetically slow, it rivals the speed of my reverse osmosis water filter! Actually, I think the water filter is faster. Not kidding!

I just played the mighty Mason for the first time in nearly six months and while the experience was almost spiritual, I came to the conclusion that I need a few more days of 'acoustic re-acquaintance' ....along with a tuning! [I got a twangy key somehow].

So, it may be a bit longer before I'm able to submit; but I'm working on it.

My piece will be a 'double cover' which means it will be my cover version of 'The Coors' cover version of R.E.M's tune "Everybody Hurts" Hunky style. That should be easy to remember smile
Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Eight Octaves
Sorry for the questions. I'm new to the QR. What happens next? How do I read / listen to the entries that's there?


You can't listen until after the recital goes "live" on the 15th. Then Monica will start two new threads, one for listening, one for commenting.

Sam
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 09:49 AM

I'm in at 11.
thumb

Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 09:53 AM

I'm in. I promised something different -it's a piece for clarinet and piano - I'm the one playing the piano!

Sam
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Sam S


You can't listen until after the recital goes "live" on the 15th. Then Monica will start two new threads, one for listening, one for commenting.

Sam


Thanks Sam! I will wait eagerly.
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by wouter79
I'm in again!

But the title looks quite crappy :-(

Monica, it seems the webpage throwing up over the "ä". Will it turn up ok in the final page? Or do I need to use a special code for it?


Yes, the software has conniptions when you use fancy characters. It won't turn out okay on the final page... I usually have to go in and laboriously edit out miles of weird html (or whatever all that is) from the copy and paste file on recital night. So it would be much easier for me if you (and anybody else who has fancy characters) edits them out of your submission on the front end. Just changing the description won't make you lose your place in the queue.

Thanks!
Posted By: dynamobt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Whizbang
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
I'm number three! I'm number three! Unless I decide I get a better recording a few days later and change my submission.... Although being in the top 5 is definitely a first for me, which is its own motivation for just keeping this recording.


No worries, I just listened to dynamobt's recording and I think the audio file must be badly corrupted. It probably needs to be updated wink


Not so!! I just listened to the full recording. It's long. But all there. I just think you wanted to be #1!!! LOL!!
Posted By: carlos88

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by dynamobt


But the title looks quite crappy :-(

Monica, it seems the webpage throwing up over the "ä". Will it turn up ok in the final page? Or do I need to use a special code for it?


I can't completely tell where the encoding is being inconsistently handled on the server, but you may be able to enter the title with the a-and-umlaut replaced (encoded) as "ä"

Von fremden Ländern und Menschen

which would then appear as:
Von fremden Ländern und Menschen

Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 07:52 PM

Monica, before I start hacking in all these codes, can you confirm that the suggestion by carlos88 would work? Or, that it would appear properly when you release the text?
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 08:04 PM

You're talking to a computer dummy, wouter79. I have no idea if Carlos's idea would work. All I know is that when somebody uses a strange character the program doesn't like, it produces about 3 lines of gibberish that looks scarily similar to the REAL code, and I have to painstakingly go through and separate the bad gibberish from the good gibberish in a trial and error sort of way. I'd just as soon we sacrifice phonetic accuracy for administrator ease. help
Posted By: dynamobt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 08:18 PM

Website is doing weird things. I did not make the quote in Carlos88's most recent post.
Posted By: carlos88

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by dynamobt
Website is doing weird things. I did not make the quote in Carlos88's most recent post.


That was definitely my fault when editing the message and losing some of the quote wrappers.
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by dynamobt
That was definitely my fault when editing the message and losing some of the quote wrappers.
Posted By: dynamobt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/01/14 09:10 PM

Ah, I see.
Posted By: newbert

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 01:05 AM

I've got one Billy Joel song recorded and in the hopper, but was considering to submit another instead. But now I see (in post #1) that the "recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces."

Does that mean that I can submit TWO pieces back to back (related because they're both by Billy Joel) as a medley? (Total time would be about 8 minutes.) If so, would I physically have to play them in realtime back-to-back? Or could I take the best recording of each and attempt "splice" them together?

I'm not looking to "cheat", but just want to clarify that rule.

Thanks!
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 02:13 AM

Hey, Newbert, you can submit the two Billy Joel pieces as a medley, but they need to be submitted as a single mp3 file. You could do this either in a heroic bout with the Red Dot and playing them back to back real time, or you can edit them together (and just mention that you spliced them together in your comments).

That's not cheating, in my book. smile
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by newbert
I've got one Billy Joel song recorded and in the hopper, but was considering to submit another instead. But now I see (in post #1) that the "recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces."

Does that mean that I can submit TWO pieces back to back (related because they're both by Billy Joel) as a medley? (Total time would be about 8 minutes.) If so, would I physically have to play them in realtime back-to-back? Or could I take the best recording of each and attempt "splice" them together?

I'm not looking to "cheat", but just want to clarify that rule.

Thanks!


Newbert, these recitals were set up as a way to somewhat replicate the setting of a real recital. In many ways, it IS a 'real' recital as we are submitting our best recorded performances for others to hear and enjoy.

Of course, there is a slight catch. More like a perk. A pretty big one!

The 'perk' is that in this online format, the performances are not 'live', but rather recorded. Unlike a live performance, you are able to make as many attempts at getting your best 'take' of your performance as you want. First take, second, fifth, forty third...whatever. This is a HUGE benefit that a lot of us may take for granted. I for one would probably choke in a live concert setting in which you must perform your best every first performance.


Anyway, in a live recital, if you were to perform a compilation of several medleys, that would be fine. As long as you strung them together as one complete performance done in one sitting. If you want to perform several medleys in our ABF recitals, it would only be fair to everyone else to do this compilation in one complete sitting. Just as you would in a live recital. Of course, just like everybody else, you can make as many attempts at your 'one' complete performance. This is what we are all doing. Unlimited attempts at one complete submission.

If you were to record several individual tunes and then splice them together as a medley, then that's what you would have....a spliced together medley of individually recorded tunes. That would be the equivalent of someone recording their performance in several individually recorded sections and then splicing them together as one complete recording/medley.

I hope I've supported my logic as to why I would suggest you record your several tunes back to back...and end up with a single performance medley of several compiled tunes.

I look forward to hearing it. Medleys, original compositions, written score, whatever. It's all good.

Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Monica K.
You're talking to a computer dummy, wouter79. I have no idea if Carlos's idea would work. All I know is that when somebody uses a strange character the program doesn't like, it produces about 3 lines of gibberish that looks scarily similar to the REAL code, and I have to painstakingly go through and separate the bad gibberish from the good gibberish in a trial and error sort of way. I'd just as soon we sacrifice phonetic accuracy for administrator ease. help


ok thanks. Am I right that you are just create a new thread here on PW and then copy the texts one by one from the program into this new thread? If that's the case, Carlos's suggestion would not work either and "& amp;" would just show up like that, and not like "ä".

BTW I notice right now that this forum also does weird things with the text. If I type "& amp;" but without the space as it should be, I get only "&"
Posted By: carlos88

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by wouter79
Originally Posted by Monica K.
You're talking to a computer dummy, wouter79. I have no idea if Carlos's idea would work. All I know is that when somebody uses a strange character the program doesn't like, it produces about 3 lines of gibberish that looks scarily similar to the REAL code, and I have to painstakingly go through and separate the bad gibberish from the good gibberish in a trial and error sort of way. I'd just as soon we sacrifice phonetic accuracy for administrator ease. help


ok thanks. Am I right that you are just create a new thread here on PW and then copy the texts one by one from the program into this new thread? If that's the case, Carlos's suggestion would not work either and "& amp;" would just show up like that, and not like "ä".

BTW I notice right now that this forum also does weird things with the text. If I type "& amp;" but without the space as it should be, I get only "&"



That sounds right for encoding - & should get recognized as a special text sequence and shown as an & when it is displayed.

Depending on how the text is copied by someone, it could either keep the original text with the & and ; characters, or might lose those. I agree that the main goal should be to make Monica's life as easy as possible for the recital information handling :-)


Horrifically boring software digression - this is the part where my sister would walk out of the room - there are a number of ways of encoding special characters, so that the software processing and display of text doesn't get confused.

One of them uses the starting & and the ending ; in a &...; pattern (without spaces) to indicate those boundaries. http://ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm, under the HTML Name column shows these, including the umlaut vowel variations.

The main issue is that you either have to know what kind of encoding the server and database are using for special characters, or have to guess a couple of times with different encodings to see which one gets displayed correctly.


Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 05:16 AM

Thanks, so you are saying it would be working ok, under the assumption that Monica just copies the text as I suggested, including the & codes?

And that I should not use & amp; but & auml; ?
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky

Newbert, these recitals were set up as a way to somewhat replicate the setting of a real recital. In many ways, it IS a 'real' recital as we are submitting our best recorded performances for others to hear and enjoy.(...)

Right. That's why my piece has some errors, missing notes and hesitations smile As usual.
Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 08:06 AM

And I'm in at number 18 with a totally different piece... I guess I will post the jazzy one in the piano bar. I think it's the first time that I upload something that's longer than 1 minute!
Posted By: newbert

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted by newbert
I've got one Billy Joel song recorded and in the hopper, but was considering to submit another instead. But now I see (in post #1) that the "recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces."

Does that mean that I can submit TWO pieces back to back (related because they're both by Billy Joel) as a medley? (Total time would be about 8 minutes.) If so, would I physically have to play them in realtime back-to-back? Or could I take the best recording of each and attempt "splice" them together?

I'm not looking to "cheat", but just want to clarify that rule.

Thanks!


Newbert, these recitals were set up as a way to somewhat replicate the setting of a real recital. In many ways, it IS a 'real' recital as we are submitting our best recorded performances for others to hear and enjoy.

Of course, there is a slight catch. More like a perk. A pretty big one!

The 'perk' is that in this online format, the performances are not 'live', but rather recorded. Unlike a live performance, you are able to make as many attempts at getting your best 'take' of your performance as you want. First take, second, fifth, forty third...whatever. This is a HUGE benefit that a lot of us may take for granted. I for one would probably choke in a live concert setting in which you must perform your best every first performance.


Anyway, in a live recital, if you were to perform a compilation of several medleys, that would be fine. As long as you strung them together as one complete performance done in one sitting. If you want to perform several medleys in our ABF recitals, it would only be fair to everyone else to do this compilation in one complete sitting. Just as you would in a live recital. Of course, just like everybody else, you can make as many attempts at your 'one' complete performance. This is what we are all doing. Unlimited attempts at one complete submission.

If you were to record several individual tunes and then splice them together as a medley, then that's what you would have....a spliced together medley of individually recorded tunes. That would be the equivalent of someone recording their performance in several individually recorded sections and then splicing them together as one complete recording/medley.

I hope I've supported my logic as to why I would suggest you record your several tunes back to back...and end up with a single performance medley of several compiled tunes.

I look forward to hearing it. Medleys, original compositions, written score, whatever. It's all good.



OK. Fully understood. I think that I'll just choose one and leave it at that, as I have enough trouble recording either one of them (individually) in an acceptable manner. Maybe I'll just keep the 2nd one in the hopper for the next recital....

Thanks for the clarification.
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by newbert
Maybe I'll just keep the 2nd one in the hopper for the next recital....

Thanks for the clarification.


Always good to have a spare lying around. I have been caught before failing to get a piece ready for recital and needing a plan B.
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 06:45 PM

Somebody just sent me an email from an email address I don't recognize that contained nothing but an audio file, with no accompanying letter of explanation. I'm guessing it was a request for help in uploading to the recital website, but there was no submission matching the attached piece in the queue. Also, the file was in an m4a format, which the recital website doesn't accept. So if you're the mystery person who is trying to submit to the recital, you need to convert your file to mp3 format (just look online for "free m4a to mp3 converter") first, and then follow the instructions on the recital site. The good news is that you have 12 days to figure it out. smile
Posted By: Jayden

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 07:47 PM

Almost finished my piece :))))

I was going to submit Kyle Landry's version of Time (Hans Zimmer, from Inception) but I haven't finished it yet. Instead I will use an easier interpretation of the song that someone showed me awhile ago.
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 08:09 PM

ok I updated the title etc as Carlos suggested.

On the upload page the titles now show literally "ä"

Monica, can you check if this will this work out properly in the final version on the PW pages?
Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by wouter79
ok I updated the title etc as Carlos suggested.

On the upload page the titles now show literally "ä"

Monica, can you check if this will this work out properly in the final version on the PW pages?


Who knows for sure, but I think all she does is copy and paste, and when I go to the admin page, copy the title, and paste it back, I get this:

Kinderszenen, Op. 15, "Von fremden Ländern und Menschen" and "Träumerei".

Sam
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 08:43 PM

I remember Traumerei from my music lesson days. This does not go down well with 14 or 15 yo boys, believe me. Stopped soon after . . .
Posted By: ajames

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/02/14 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
I remember Traumerei from my music lesson days. This does not go down well with 14 or 15 yo boys, believe me. Stopped soon after . . .


So one could say you were "Traumatized by Traumerei"... {ba-dum ching}

My piece needs some more work, although I did get a banker in tonight. It's a pedal-heavy piece, since I promised my teacher I would work on the pedal after I blew off all his pedal suggestions for my Tchaikovsky piece...

It's from Ben Crosland's "Cool Beans vol. 1", which some of you may recognized as a contributor here, along with his publisher, Nikolai.
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 03:45 AM

Looks like I'm in at #20. I was just doing a few practice recordings and I liked this one so I decided to submit it. Maybe I will replace it if I do better.
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 04:56 AM

Sam S, yes copy-paste that's what I am hoping for. Thanks for confirming that it works fine if done that way!

But Monica did not yet confirm that.

Monica, you basically copy the text to the PW pages manually as Sam S described?
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 05:04 AM

peterws, yes this not particularly a macho piece smile And it's a lot harder than it sounds, because of up to 4-part counterpoint and complex fingering.

You didn't have any control over which pieces you were to play?
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by wouter79
peterws, yes this not particularly a macho piece smile And it's a lot harder than it sounds, because of up to 4-part counterpoint and complex fingering.

You didn't have any control over which pieces you were to play?


I never had any particular choices since I was a reluctant piano player and, don`t forget, she`d need to be able to play whatever "choices" I might have had. The only thing I did was "The Dambusters" by Eric Coates which had too much octav-y stuff in it for me and had been consequently "trimmed". She went through it slowly, making sure I hit every note. Another reason I left . . . .
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by wouter79
Sam S, yes copy-paste that's what I am hoping for. Thanks for confirming that it works fine if done that way!

But Monica did not yet confirm that.

Monica, you basically copy the text to the PW pages manually as Sam S described?


{Monica sighs wearily} Wouter, when I process the submissions, the recital software spits out a copy and paste text that I do indeed copy and paste into the individual recital thread entries. What I can't confirm is that the code that you submitted, and which is currently showing up when an administrator looks at the entries, will be translated into that copy and paste document correctly. And I can't confirm THAT until the night of the recital itself and I click on the button that says "process the submissions."

Bottom line: You're probably fine. But I can't guarantee it, because I don't know enough about how the software works. Moreover, I am not able or willing to engage in a whole lot of messing around on recital night itself trying to learn html and/or how to edit it if for some reason it is not okay. So if you want to rule out the possibility of gibberish showing up entirely, don't use fancy characters/code.

Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/03/14 09:09 PM

yea Monica smile

Cathy
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/04/14 11:03 AM

and I'm in at 22 !

smile
Posted By: noobpianist90

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/04/14 12:37 PM

I'm at #23
This is fun smile
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/04/14 01:35 PM

Thanks Monica. Sorry for bothering you. I then assume that this will work out fine in the end.
Posted By: newbert

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/04/14 02:23 PM

Looks like I'm in at #24.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/04/14 04:37 PM

I decided not to try to re-record my piece, so I'll stay where I am. At this point I can either get a recording that's (mostly) free of mistakes and not too horrible in terms of musicality, or I can get recording that is much closer to what I want in terms of musicality but is also riddled with mistakes. I guess I'm gonna go with the former.... whome
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/05/14 08:34 AM

I don't know what place in the line I submitted, but I made a submission today this morining- "Back at One" Brian McKnight
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/05/14 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
I don't know what place in the line I submitted, but I made a submission today this morining- "Back at One" Brian McKnight


You are in at No 26
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/05/14 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
I don't know what place in the line I submitted, but I made a submission today this morining- "Back at One" Brian McKnight


You are in at No 26


Right.
You just have to select "Show me..." in recital page http://recitals.pianoworld.com to see all the pieces.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/05/14 09:58 AM

Thanks for the info.
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 02:36 AM

Two days with the Red Dot and I haven't gotten a better take. Dang.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 03:36 AM

I know what you mean. With my placement of the mic, the big red light is actually starring at me right in the face whenever I look up from the keyboard!
Posted By: Sweet06

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 03:42 AM

I cannot wait!! I'm going to submit to my first recital since joining this forum!! EXCITED!!!!
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted by newbert
I've got one Billy Joel song recorded and in the hopper, but was considering to submit another instead. But now I see (in post #1) that the "recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces."
Does that mean that I can submit TWO pieces back to back (related because they're both by Billy Joel) as a medley? (Total time would be about 8 minutes.) If so, would I physically have to play them in realtime back-to-back? Or could I take the best recording of each and attempt "splice" them together?
I'm not looking to "cheat", but just want to clarify that rule.
Thanks!

Of course, there is a slight catch. More like a perk. A pretty big one!
Anyway, in a live recital, if you were to perform a compilation of several medleys, that would be fine. As long as you strung them together as one complete performance done in one sitting. If you want to perform several medleys in our ABF recitals, it would only be fair to everyone else to do this compilation in one complete sitting. Just as you would in a live recital. Of course, just like everybody else, you can make as many attempts at your 'one' complete performance. This is what we are all doing. Unlimited attempts at one complete submission.

After reading this post I see a little concern for my submission to the recital, but maybe it’s passable.
I recorded “Back at One” by Brian McKnight.
The played piece is a 5 minute song if the repeat and codas are played, which I played.
You literally play 60% of the whole song and then return to the beginning of the piece and start at measure one until the 2nd ending and go straight to D S coda>>>> to coda to the ending 8 measures
So the title is appropriate. ;.)
But I did the 5 mins in two sessions..
1rst- to the first ending repeat, paused
2nd- Went back to measure 1>> 2nd endig to ds coda …coda >>> the end
I uploaded the original initially (5 mins) but recorded video with the original and added midi after copying it.
So, I put that in mp3 and spliced it together as a “medly”, with the original and the midi enhanced original.
Now I uploaded the “medley” which is the original (1rst) and the (2nd) copy midi enhanced, totaling a (9:45 mins) compile.
Here’s my question …..
Should I do this whole thing over? (Back at One)????
I have the original and I can re- upload that ..
I hope not to redo the whole, but I can if it seems non recital like.
Take into consideration the length of the piece.
I may just end up doing a redo and posting the vid in May forum.

Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 06:30 AM

I don't think you need to re-do anything. I recorded my piece with a little break in between, to catch my breath and turn the page (!) and then I stitched the two sections together. For some people this is bad, not recital-like. But this will never be a "live recording" experience for me, not yet at least. I'm already happy that I managed to get an acceptable recording in a single session, after only a few takes. I say, whatever works for you.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 06:42 AM

smile Thank you ,,, that WORKS for me. smile
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sweet06
I cannot wait!! I'm going to submit to my first recital since joining this forum!! EXCITED!!!!


It's a great mark of progress just to be able to submit and yes has a bit of excitement too.
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 11:45 AM


I uploaded the original initially (5 mins) but recorded video with the original and added midi after copying it.
So, I put that in mp3 and spliced it together as a “medly”, with the original and the midi enhanced original.
Now I uploaded the “medley” which is the original (1rst) and the (2nd) copy midi enhanced, totaling a (9:45 mins) compile.

There`s 15 seconds unaccounted for . . . .:)
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 12:02 PM

Ok, I submitted the original recording. I just can't get it better. Anytime I start recording I get very tense.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by peterws



There`s 15 seconds unaccounted for . . . .:)


I was using a rounded up time from.-9:20 secs.

4:36 sec is the recording time of the original mp3.
4:45 sec is of the video (title added)
Actual time is 9 min 38 sec. --but, the compiled mp3 and video is 9 20 sec. ( a second is lost)
[b]Or, it could be when,,,,,
(as I speculate , it was during that unaccounted time, when I made "Contact". …... ; smile
-Good movie to see by the way.

Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/07/14 10:47 PM

Primo,

This is just my opinion but I think you should submit whatever you want and however you produced it is up to you. You only need to follow the constraints that are in the recital rules (not sure what they are exactly because I haven't read them recently). It's a best efforts performance in the most general sense, I think. It's nice that you provided all the details of how you made your recording but you don't really have to do that. wink

For the PC recital I edited my Chopin waltz a bit because I really didn't have time to do more than a couple takes. There was a total memory slip where it sounded like I fell asleep on the keys for a few seconds and I just shortened that gap down to something almost negligible. My first edit ever and it was totally worthwhile due to time constraints.

Do what you must.
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 01:03 AM

I hope I can get another attempt at my submission tonight if this kid ever goes to bed. The one I submitted was an unexpected performance because I realized I was actually too tired to play. But I really wanted to play and decided I'd have a couple glasses of wine and think on it. For some reason the wine didn't put me to sleep and it produced an acceptable recording. But I'm pretty sure I can get a better one since I've put a lot of work into the music since then.
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 07:30 PM

Well I'm finally in at #30. I'm usually one of the earlier birds but this time I got delayed with a one week re-acquaintance period readjusting from the speed of the electric typewriter to the concerted effort of the manual one. [Digital to acoustic transition].

It normally doesn't take but a few days to readjust but it is so cold up here right now on the mountain that I need to warm up ...everything. Brrr.

Anyway, I'm kind of far down the list so I'll have to think of some stunt to drag people down and listen. For now, free hot dogs and balloons for the kids until I come up with something better.
Posted By: GeorgeSchiro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
Should I do this whole thing over? (Back at One)????

Since I have participated here only very recently, perhaps it is not really my place to comment. But here goes anyway. This is just my opinion (of course).

My impression is that the original intent of these recitals was to give folks - as much as possible - the experience of a live performance. I suspect that we would indeed be doing live performances if current technology made doing so as easy as what we are doing now (ie. recording).

Since it was originally Mr Super-Hunky's idea, perhaps we should defer to him - or perhaps not.

Anyway, for the sake of artistic freedom, I think anyone should be able to submit anything they feel comfortable with. Besides, there is no way to know what anyone really does in the privacy of his or her own recording studio. That said, since with more personal freedom comes more personal responsibility, I would like to think that anyone who has edited his or her recording (in any way) would add a disclaimer to their submission saying so. After all, honesty is always the best policy, right?
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 11:07 PM

I think the only real limitation is stated by the rules: 192K MP3 max size of 20 MB. Within those walls, if you play several pieces one after another, medley style, I suppose that odd to be fine. Technical, the whole thing should be a single performance but if people splice, oh well, not like that would be the first time anyone is doing such a thing.

I personally do not own tools to splice with, so I have no choice but to submit a single take warts and all.
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by GeorgeSchiro
... add a disclaimer to their submission ...


Many submissions add a disclaimer just for submitting. smile

I'm still focused on the 15 seconds of ... nothing? smile
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/08/14 11:33 PM

My disclaimer should be: There are more enjoyable things in life than listening to my submission... like a root canal. grin
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by GeorgeSchiro
Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
Should I do this whole thing over? (Back at One)????



Since it was originally Mr Super-Hunky's idea, perhaps we should defer to him -


Okay, here it is....

The ABF quarterly recitals were originally intended to provide us with a 'snapshot' of our abilities and progress playing the piano over time. A sort of 'time capsule' of what we sounded like at a certain point in time in our piano journey.

How this original concept turned into people splicing together individual sections of a score, editing out mistakes, overlaying-multi-track recorded sections on top of each other when the section gets too difficult to play, I'll never know. It was NOT the original intention.

The original intention is exactly what is mentioned above.

Since this is 'beginners' forum, our compatible goal should be to obtain a solid musical foundation from which to improve upon. Not to become a master at sound-shopping! [Think Photo-shop].

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong awith producing a studio edited musical production; it's just that this was not the original intention of the ABF recitals.

Some people may be confusing the original concept of creating a live recital environment with a studio produced musical production. They are NOT the same. Even though our recitals are a sort of hybrid between the two, the 'intent' is to pretend we are performing in a live recital scenario.

Again, we already have two (2) major advantages:

1.) Unlimited takes
2.) Performances are much less stressful as they are not performed in front of a live audience starring at you. And don't forget about the unlimited takes!

How many breaks do we need?, and do all these perks help lead to our end goal of becoming a better piano player?

A recital should be just that, a one-pass sit down performance of what you are able to perform without misrepresenting your abilities to others. If you are good enough to play an entire piece without cutting it up into sections and then pasting/splicing those sections together, then do it. That's not how it is done in a live recital, and it was not the original intention of this one either.

Of course, we could always start a quarterly 'musical production' thread in which edited, multi-track studio produced submissions would be fine as that's what a musical production is. I'm all for it even. But it's just not to be confused with a live performance of an individual performer as in any live piano recital.

As the originator of these recitals, I just wanted to be clear on this. That doesn't mean that these recitals can't change if the group as a whole wants them to. I'm just trying to clarify the difference between a studio produced/edited musical production and a live performance like in a recital. I'm just trying to keep these two concepts separate in order to stay on course with the original intention of these ABF recitals.
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 12:24 AM

Thank you, Mr. Super-Hunky. I know I enjoy the recitals because they are real people in real playing. For me, editing out "mistakes" or whatever defeats the whole purpose of a recital. I like "live" music, and amateur music.

So I'd rather the ABF quarterlies stayed that way. Leave the "perfect" productions to professionals. It's not, to me, at all what the ABF is about.

Cathy
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 12:50 AM

Just so we are clear, I have put plenty of mistakes into my submission and I am taking them out for no one lol
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Of course, we could always start a quarterly 'musical production' thread in which edited, multi-track studio produced submissions would be fine as that's what a musical production is. I'm all for it even.


That would invariably turn into a sort of arms race of who has the best DAW doing the best audio engineering.... With software piano, you could even replace a single note within a 3 or 4 note chord, alter tempo, add or subtract rubato, change dynamics, shape phrasing. Technically you wouldn't even need a piano MIDI keyboard just that if you could play piano, it makes the input of MIDI info more efficient.
Posted By: Andy Platt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 01:04 AM

Yikes, only a week left and I still haven't got a good recording of one of the movements.
Posted By: Sand Tiger

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 01:35 AM

The less editing the better. Some minor edits such as boosting or reducing the volume, eliminating large gaps at the beginning or end are typical and are to make the file sound like the live performance. Much more than that is not in the spirit of the recital. I understand that there is no realistic way to police it.

For someone like Pathbreaker, with ten years of experience, if his/her screen date is near the piano start date, editing a file is not in the spirit of the recital. If there is really no time to record, perhaps sit this one out. It sounds like there were at least three takes. Why not just upload the best of those and be done?

There is another recital in three months. There is the monthly piano bar. There is also another week to record. Surely after ten years there is some other piece recording ready.

It is bad enough for the true beginners listening that the recital tends to dominated by the super talented, the super dedicated, and those with vast experience. Then to have someone with vast experience editing their submission and making the true beginners listening along feel even more inferior? Come on now. Folks, you are better than that. Sit it out if you are not ready or submit to the piano bar when you are.

There is also no shame in making mistakes. So many listeners stay on the sidelines because they get intimidated by the high percentage of seemingly note perfect performances. Please understand that many submissions still sound like beginner efforts for a wide variety of other reasons.

Oh well, I do not mean to sound mean, even if I am sure to some it sounds that way. My apologies to Pathbreaker for singling him/her out. However, it is an extraordinary case.

Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 05:40 AM

And the debate comes up again.

The problem is, I may very well play a piece in a single take at the correct tempo and even without mistakes when I am not recording, but then recording is an entire different matter, and I don't think I'm alone in this. When I'm recording I'm at least twice as bad a pianist as I usually am. So to show you where I am right now in my progress, I may have to join two takes or eliminate pauses. But you know what? The thing still sucks! grin

I do recording so I can spot all the faults that I couldn't hear before, and I do recitals to have a deadline and be pressured into learning to overcome the red dot syndrome, one day. I think I'm getting better at that, so thank you!
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted by GeorgeSchiro
Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
Should I do this whole thing over? (Back at One)????



Since it was originally Mr Super-Hunky's idea, perhaps we should defer to him -


Okay, here it is....

The ABF quarterly recitals were originally intended to provide us with a 'snapshot' of our abilities and progress playing the piano over time. A sort of 'time capsule' of what we sounded like at a certain point in time in our piano journey.

How this original concept turned into people splicing together individual sections of a score, editing out mistakes, overlaying-multi-track recorded sections on top of each other when the section gets too difficult to play, I'll never know. It was NOT the original intention.



Thanks for the clarification ,
Note that I did the initial recording of approx 5 min in 2 sessions. Not any other way.

Being that I am fascinated by MIDI and the possibilities of it with music, I copied the original and added/edited Midi data, saved it and compiled both into approx a 10 min "2 version of that same piece" entry.

I still have 5 days. so I MAY/MIGHT do it in One session again .

I do think that midi, daw's and learning what could be done with the theory of piano music , and digital's should always (emphatically ) be encouraged; whether one is a beginner or otherwise.
That skill-education furthers music(-al) ,(technology) and piano study and the independent creation of music.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by sinophilia
And the debate comes up again.

The problem is, I may very well play a piece in a single take at the correct tempo and even without mistakes when I am not recording, but then recording is an entire different matter, and I don't think I'm alone in this. When I'm recording I'm at least twice as bad a pianist as I usually am. So to show you where I am right now in my progress, I may have to join two takes or eliminate pauses.


There is no question everyone plays far better alone. So the question is which pianist is the real one, the one playing by herself all alone, or the one playing in front of a red light?
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sand Tiger


It is bad enough for the true beginners listening that the recital tends to dominated by the super talented, the super dedicated, and those with vast experience. Then to have someone with vast experience editing their submission and making the true beginners listening along feel even more inferior? Come on now. Folks, you are better than that. Sit it out if you are not ready or submit to the piano bar when you are.

There is also no shame in making mistakes. So many listeners stay on the sidelines because they get intimidated by the high percentage of seemingly note perfect performances. Please understand that many submissions still sound like beginner efforts for a wide variety of other reasons.

Oh well, I do not mean to sound mean, even if I am sure to some it sounds that way. My apologies to Pathbreaker for singling him/her out. However, it is an extraordinary case.



.....And think of the children !!!!!!!
.... shocked smile


I would think to note it in the information text box that it was edited and how.

On the flip side of the coin, a beginner might feel motivated rather than inferior, that someone with vast experience actually edited, and realize that anybody has shortcomings, makes mistakes etc.

It brings to mind when I was in college and the microbio. pro said how he was a wreck in class with technique , at gram stains, then his prof . told him how to make a shortcut in the technique by not using a different slide for each test ( what type then etc etc ,from the petri dish ) but doing it in a sequence, to make it time efficient etc.

....oh wait, this isn't about that... sorry....
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves

There is no question everyone plays far better alone. So the question is which pianist is the real one, the one playing by herself all alone, or the one playing in front of a red light?


Ummmmm , I haven't played piano in red light areas,,,,,.
cool

My Vivitar light is blue, -- same player, but different situation.
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:57 AM

I agree with Sinophilia and 8octaves. I perform far worse with the red dot (very tense, stiff muscles, strange stuff). I have been trying for ages to get a good recording of some of the pieces of the Schumann Album for the Young but just can't.

Anyway, I am glad I submitted a straight out of the recorder recording (you can hear me switching it off wink ). I suppose I would you just as bad during a normal recital and this should be like a live recital if I understand mr. Super Hunky correctly. I can also understand that people edit, it's frustrating if you can't show how well you can play a piece.
I have never learned to edit audio so I didn't want to put effort in it.
Posted By: N17

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 07:07 AM

Piece submitted at 31. There will be a stark contrast between Mr. Super Hunky's playing and my piece that follows. But I'm excited to have everything submitted anyway.

Also, I didn't edit! Those are all my mistakes, hesitations, and crazy changes in tempo and dynamics with no technology aids. Though, I did try out a little bit of reverb (the default setting on my DP) after peterws suggested it may have helped the sound quality of my previous recording in last month's piano bar.
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:02 AM

" . . . after peterws suggested it may have helped the sound quality of my previous recording in last month's piano bar. . ."

I see problems comin` my way . . . me and my big (digital) gob . . .

Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by peterws


I see problems comin` my way . . . me and my big (digital) gob . . .



Yeah, be careful peter grin

Okay I know what's the problem... it's the digital piano that's evil! Digital recordings are just too tempting! That's why I try really hard to make videos of the acoustic... but they're rarely listenable.
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Okay, here it is....
The ABF quarterly recitals were originally intended to provide us with a 'snapshot' of our abilities and progress playing the piano over time. A sort of 'time capsule' of what we sounded like at a certain point in time in our piano journey.
(...)

That's the spirit. Mistakes are part of the process.
Fortunately I make many mistakes. smile
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:58 AM

That's why you got the star! wink
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 09:34 AM

Come on people! Lets worry about making music. I've heard too many in my life who are so worried about perfect copy. They don't make music. They don't even come close!
In these recitals and piano bar. I hear so many people trying to make music. It's obvious. Mistakes don't mean diddly to me. When one recovers from a mistake and plays the next few bars musically. That means a whole lot to me.
I love it when I hear someone romp over a mistake like it's nothing. Doesn't even phase them.
I love to hear those who improvise because they just can't do it technically right now. They are more interested in making music.
I can't help but root for those just beginning who are playing little bits of real music here and there. They get what it's all about!
I can't help but root for those who keep struggling technically. But still turn out music for part or most of it.
I myself don't care if they splice together parts. Work them in their DAW. Just my opinion.
I myself understand more now that I play. I can hear when someone is having a problem getting their hand to do this movement. I just root for them. Am happy as can be when they recover with music.
It's all about music. It's not about perfect copy that isn't music.
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Sand Tiger
My apologies to Pathbreaker for singling him/her out.


No problem, your opinion is as good as mine. But I wasn't talking about my current submission. For this recital I did put two pieces together but I did it all in one go.

My post was more in the spirit of inclusion and in support of Primo or others so that they are more likely to participate if the use of software is part of the recording process.

For me, the example I gave pertains to a past non-ABF recital. In that recital I know that I was not alone in making such an edit and it seemed like the right thing to do for the sake of the listener more than myself. I felt obligated to post the original raw performance and so I did do that in that thread. I don't think it was necessary but I know that some people like a truly live experience.

I don't actually have any editing skills and that was my first attempt at an edit. It seemed to work out so I made the choice that for THAT recital the more polished version would be preferred by that audience. If I make an edit you will know because it will be very sloppy. ha

Like some of you I think the spirit of the recital is better when the performance is as close to the original as possible. But if some people make some minor edits it doesn't really bother me.

I don't really have future plans to edit my work because the process was painful and not that rewarding. smile
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1

I do think that midi, daw's and learning what could be done with the theory of piano music , and digital's should always (emphatically ) be encouraged; whether one is a beginner or otherwise.
That skill-education furthers music(-al) ,(technology) and piano study and the independent creation of music.


I've always preferred acoustic but unfortunately I'm really picky and it's so hard to get my hands on one that's not totally falling apart. So I'm satisfied enough with my DP for now but really interested in finding something more advanced in the software piano range. I finally got myself a midi-usb and barely got Pianoteq (sample) going. So far I'm not really inspired to spend any money on anything else. It's hard to know if it will be worth it.
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by sinophilia

Okay I know what's the problem... it's the digital piano that's evil!


burn them I say (all except mine)
Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 11:21 AM

MIDI is great for learning anyway... for example if you don't hit two notes perfectly at the same time you will see it very well. Even if it's a 100th of a second, the MIDI track reveals it - and of course the ear can hear it! You can see the velocity with which you pressed every key, and hear the corresponding dynamics. You can see a slight hesitation as a gap that's too long. I am a very visual person and I've learned a lot from that. You can clearly see the tiny details that make up the whole and see how you managed to obtain a pleasant sound (or not). It also makes one very picky!
Posted By: TrapperJohn

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 12:32 PM

Hi gang!

Between playing golf and trap shooting (and tending my remote landlord interests in marijuana farming in Colorado laugh ) I haven't been checking in here much lately...just wanted to let you know that I'm still alive and well and I'm putting the finishing touches on a tune - an easy piano arrangement of a "fiddle tune" - that started out as a simple, moving farewell tribute to the students attending a music camp in the upstate region of the Peoples Republic of New York, and ended as the very compelling and hauntingly beautiful theme song of the most critically acclaimed documentary in TV history...
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 03:22 PM

I know that tune smile

Cathy
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by rnaple
Originally Posted by GeorgeSchiro
... add a disclaimer to their submission ...

Many submissions add a disclaimer just for submitting. smile
I'm still focused on the 15 seconds of ... nothing? smile



found it's way after following..
"Much ado about........"
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
For me, the example I gave pertains to a past non-ABF recital. In that recital I know that I was not alone in making such an edit and it seemed like the right thing to do for the sake of the listener more than myself. I felt obligated to post the original raw performance and so I did do that in that thread. I don't think it was necessary but I know that some people like a truly live experience.


I think the recitals in PC are a whole different animal than the ABF quarterly recitals, and with different motivations. Yeah, I think there the idea is much more "post a recording that's close to professional." That's really not the ABF recitals (at least not the quarterlies). The ABF is about "where you are now" and celebrating the process and pleasure of learning. The PC can have the pro recitals laugh People are welcome in the ABF regardless of where they are in their journey, what kind of music they play, how much nerves got to them, etc. It's really the point.

We are welcoming precisely because the bloopers are welcomed. If we lose that feeling, that welcomes us all just as we are at this minute in our piano playing, well, we've lost.

So to imply in any way that one's playing needs to be blooperless, either to the ABF or to ones self, is to, IMO, damage the spirit of the ABF and its recitals.

So I don't want to encourage editing of bloopers.

I feel pretty strongly about this laugh

Cathy
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by CarlosCC
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Okay, here it is....
The ABF quarterly recitals were originally intended to provide us with a 'snapshot' of our abilities and progress playing the piano over time. A sort of 'time capsule' of what we sounded like at a certain point in time in our piano journey.
(...)

That's the spirit. Mistakes are part of the process.
Fortunately I make many mistakes. smile


Me too- and I really agree with this. In fact I really enjoy listening to my early recordings and comparing them to what I can do now. At the time I thought they were "respectable" . Now I just thank the kind souls who encouraged me to keep trying smile

We all know that we can do better when we're alone, when we're not playing for the red dot...whatever..... does that matter? The point is we want to share our music and really show honestly what we can do right now. If that means having a bit of a flub here and there- so be it.

I'd rather hear an little struggling than a patched-together perfect performance!

I think (as others have already said) we already have a huge advantage over a live recital in that we can do as many takes as we like...... Editing our recordings, in my books is a no-go.

Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by rnaple
I love it when I hear someone romp over a mistake like it's nothing. Doesn't even phase them.


I've "romped over" a few thousand of those in my recital pieces laugh But there was one I couldn't "romp over". It was the last note. So I left it. People didn't mention it. Did I mention that the ABF is welcoming?

I do have a question for folks who are so frustrated with the nerves that come with recording. Do you think "we", as in all of those who are listening to your recording, are bothered by your performance under pressure (if we heard it straight, hesitations, wild bloopers, restarts in the middle, and all)? Because if you do, I think you're doing us a disservice. We're much more like Ron, who cheers everyone on, and applauds the "wanting to make music" and the recoveries, however shaky. I think we truthfully enjoy those performances. Don't you do that with other people? Don't you applaud their courage and indomitableness and their music? Yes, you do. (you, as in several people who have commented here.) I've read your comments and other posts in the ABF, and we don't have mean people here, or ones that don't cheer folks on. With few exceptions our comments are constructive and helpful. Yours and all of the folks who listen to you.

If you *don't* think the folks who are listening to you are bothered by the bloopers, hesitations, restarts, "sloppy octaves" laugh as was commented about my first recital submission (which have not been fixed, tho it's something like 7 years), and if you know they truthfully enjoy your performance, then being bothered is inside you, no?

Boy, do I understand *that*. I've come home from gigs literally excruciatingly embarassed by my, lack of, performance. To the point I go hide away for awhile, and I think my head is going to explode. I've actually been so embarrassed in the middle of a performance that the audience has started acting like mother, with soothing comments and now-now-it's-alrights, and one of them still acts like she has to be overly enthusiastic every time I play, even a year and a half later and I think she doesn't consciously remember why she has to do that. You'd think I was a 5 year old.

I'm still alive. And, intellectually, I've come to realize that the folks actually do like the music. And that that's more important than the voice deep inside my head that's judging.

Any way, this is way too long, and probably my intent is lost in the verbiage (speaking of judging) but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I am *not* going to edit this post! I've got other things to do today.

Cathy
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 05:29 PM

Beautifully put Cathy.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 05:53 PM

Everyone seemed to be very concerned with their mistakes during a recital. I would like to share these couple of real world points because I attend live recitals and competitions (as a parent) 4 times a year, and professional recitals (as audience) a couple of times a year.

First, participants (mostly) do not use music at recitals. If you need to play a piece by reading and looking at your hands, even occasionally, you will not play as well and more mistakes will happen. There is one teacher who allows all her students to play with music and even stands there turning the pages. None of her students play as well as the others who play from memory. Having music provides a false sense of security. It tricks you to believe that you are ready for a piece when you are not. I will also say that I should be careful here, because many believe memorization is too high a standard for adults, but I know from first hand experience if you do it as a beginner from the start, it is possible, but I do not have any expectation that everyone agrees with me.

Second, mistakes make no difference. Again, mistakes make no difference. My son and daughter RCM Levels 4 and 7 both won 1st place in a recent competition in their division. They both had mistakes. In my daughter's case, she began on the wrong octave (yikes!) stop and started over. Her competitors played NOTE-PERFECT but they didn't win. It is how you play that counts. In these scholarship award competitions, the judges do not play the sympathy card. Really, mistakes are secondary to the playing.

I have been to many live recital of wonderful concert pianists yet they still make plenty of mistakes. No one can play without mistakes, period, unless they play sounding like a robot, which is far worse than mistakes. We are victims of the modern perfectly edited recordings. My teacher tells me that old recording of the masters Rachmaninoff, etc captured all their mistakes as pianists. Note perfect playing is not real.
Posted By: joangolfing

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:36 PM

I recorded another version of my recital submission. When I resubmitted the newer version which is 1:17 the older version of 1.32 was the one that played back to me. What am I needing to do? Do I need a new magic code to try again.
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 06:51 PM

@8Octaves, by that standard my piece was far from recital ready and I suppose you're right. I have it memorized now and will practice a lot. Maybe I get a better recording in time. The recording I submitted now is definitely not what I would like it to be but it's the best I could record. I suppose the only way to beat the red dot fever is to know a piece so well that you can play it in your dreams..
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by wimpiano
@8Octaves, by that standard my piece was far from recital ready and I suppose you're right. I have it memorized now and will practice a lot. Maybe I get a better recording in time. The recording I submitted now is definitely not what I would like it to be but it's the best I could record. I suppose the only way to beat the red dot fever is to know a piece so well that you can play it in your dreams..


It is of course fine to play something not quite there yet. As a fellow beginner, I simply want to share the desire to play better and also what it takes, but not to impose standards on anyone.

I did horribly on my first recital in my youth. The experience never left me. When I took my exam last year, I realized that I have to know my 5 pieces well enough that I could still play them from memory while running a high fever and feeling extremely sick. Now that's exam standard, higher than recital standard. Still I managed to miss an entire octave of arpeggios in one piece, but somehow this year, they sent me the certificate of excellence for having the highest score for the center for the 2013 academic year. So again, mistakes happen, doesn't matter.
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:08 PM

Hey Joan, I just sent you an email. The recital software is showing that your recording is 1:18 in length and presumably the correct one. I seem to recall seeing something in the instructions that you may need to clear your cookies (or some newfangled computer thing) when you update your recordings. I think that's why you're hearing the old recording. I'm pretty sure it's okay on our end.

Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Monica K.
Hey Joan, I just sent you an email. The recital software is showing that your recording is 1:18 in length and presumably the correct one. I seem to recall seeing something in the instructions that you may need to clear your cookies (or some newfangled computer thing) when you update your recordings. I think that's why you're hearing the old recording. I'm pretty sure it's okay on our end.


As simple as: CTRL+F5 to "hard" refresh the page.

If you still have the same problem, try this:
In Google chrome:
- Click the Chrome menu on the browser toolbar.
- Select Tools.
- Select Clear browsing data.
- In the dialog that appears, select the checkboxes for the types of information that you want to remove.
- Use the menu at the top to select the amount of data that you want to delete. Select beginning of time to delete everything.
- Click Clear browsing data.

In Internet Explorer 8 and higher:
- From the Tools or Safety menu, select Delete browsing history... .If the menu bar is hidden, press Alt to make it visible.
- Deselect Preserve Favorites website data, and select:
-- Temporary Internet files or Temporary Internet files and website files
-- Cookies or Cookies and website data
-- History
-Click Delete.

In Internet Explorer 7:
From the Tools menu in the upper right, select Delete Browsing History... .
-To delete your cache, click Delete files... .
-To delete your cookies, click Delete cookies... .
-To delete your history, click Delete history... .
Click Close, and then click OK to exit.

In Firefox:
- From the Tools or History menu, select Clear Recent History. If the menu bar is hidden, press Alt to make it visible.
- From the Time range to clear: drop-down menu, select the desired range; to clear your entire cache, select Everything.
- Click the down arrow next to "Details" to choose which elements of the history to clear. Click Clear Now.
Posted By: joangolfing

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/09/14 09:35 PM

Thanks Carlos and Monica, I cleared my cache of recent history and heard the updated piece. I'm all set for the recital now.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 01:54 AM

Ok, now that the criteria has been established pretty well for submission ,
What is the responsibility for the passive aspect (those in the audience)
i.e. what do you do once the recital is "on the line"?
ONLINE....????
[Linked Image]


This is my first.... . except in high school band playing a clarinet, and that wasn't solo.
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 02:02 AM

Well, you listen to it smile Then, there's a general thread for comments, which range from "thanks for listening to my recording" to comments on every piece, and everything in between. I think mostly, enjoy it, and do what you will with comments - some people comment on every piece, some don't. It's up to your whim smile

Cathy
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
Ok, now that the criteria has been established pretty well for submission ,
What is the responsibility for the passive aspect (those in the audience)
i.e. what do you do once the recital is "on the line"?
ONLINE....????



You could look up the last recital and see how it works. However what will happen is a new topic will be posted with everyone's submissions which will have a couple of different options for listening. There will also be a separate topic raised for discussion about the submissions. If you feel inclined you can comment on every piece, some of the pieces or none at all. If the constructive technical feedback option has been ticked and you are in a position to give some advice then go for it. However most comments are just whatever comes to you about the piece.

I don't know if I have mentioned it before but its mandatory only to give glowing reviews to my work, but if you must be critical be gentle I am such a delicate artist.
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
Ok, now that the criteria has been established pretty well for submission ,
What is the responsibility for the passive aspect (those in the audience)
i.e. what do you do once the recital is "on the line"?
ONLINE....????


The only responsibility of the listeners is to post on the general discussion thread that you heard them.

BTW: I usually listen more to the later pieces than the early ones.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:21 AM

Hmm, I guess I should have checked back in on this thread a little sooner, it looks like I missed a lot of important discussion.

I edited out a pause in one spot in my recording, so first things first, there's my full disclosure. (I'll edit my comments in the recital notes to make that clear)

But also, I guess I have to be the voice of dissent here. I have never taken the strict view that the ABF recital should be as close to a live recital as possible. Generally, there is no record of a live recital, and no one is able to go back and listen again. (well, ok, that doesn't hold if we go check on YouTube, lots of live recordings there these days)

Perhaps more than that though, I take the view that I want to keep my recordings, I share them with friends and family as well, and the recording might be listened to more than once by the same person. For that reason I want the recording to be as close to an ideal representation of my playing as I can make it, this is me at my very best.

So as far as I am concerned, there's nothing wrong with doing a minor edit like closing up a pause, I see it as basically the same thing as cutting off the beginning and end of the recording so that the listener isn't distracted.

Having said that, I practice very hard to get mistakes out of my playing in general so that they don't show up when I'm recording myself or when I play for people. I'm proud of the recordings I've made and I think they are representative of my playing.

I guess if people think it's really inappropriate that my recording has an edit, they can choose not to listen to it (similar to the poster who makes an across-the-board decision not to listen to any recordings made on digitals). Or, I could delete my submission and not participant in this recital. Which, to be honest, would break my heart.
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves

Second, mistakes make no difference. Again, mistakes make no difference. My son and daughter RCM Levels 4 and 7 both won 1st place in a recent competition in their division. They both had mistakes. In my daughter's case, she began on the wrong octave (yikes!) stop and started over. Her competitors played NOTE-PERFECT but they didn't win. It is how you play that counts. In these scholarship award competitions, the judges do not play the sympathy card. Really, mistakes are secondary to the playing.


It's so nice to hear this. I'm another. 8th grade, only solo at school band Contest to get a first rating. Three schools there. I stopped 4 bars into the solo.
The kids who I knew would play perfect copy. The judge tore into them. I think she was trying to do them a favor. Get them to actually play music.
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 07:36 AM

Shirokuro, no one wants anyone to be hurt by an ABF recital. That would really defeat its purpose!


I think clipping the beginning and end of dead air is pretty much a norm for submissions - no one needs (or wants) to listen to dead air. Clipping dead air in the middle is a little different but not drastically different.


But then some might argue what's the difference in editing out dead air and editing out a flubbed passage? smile

I get it that you want to share your music with family and friends - so do I. And if the only error in a piece were a over-lengthy pause, I'd be tempted to edit it too.
But if I did edit, I'd feel honour-bound to say that I'd done it (as you've done).

I'm not setting myself up as making make any rules or tell anyone what they can or can not do in the ABF e-citals, I just have my own thoughts.

What I think is the most important thing is that the recordings are honest representations of our abilities to play.

If someone does editing that makes it sound like they're able to play something that really is beyond their current level... who are they really fooling and hurting? Mostly themselves.
But it also damages the integrity of the recital.

We have new submitters who post for the first time.
Is there anyone who doesn't remember their first submission? Is there anyone who doesn't remember their astonishment at listening to their first ABF recital and marvelling at the incredible range of skills in our commuity?

Now, what if we find out that some of those great performances are cut and paste jobs? That's a bit insulting to us as an audience, isn't it?

We have to be honest - first and foremost.







Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 09:16 AM

I'm in deep trouble. In November I submitted a piece to the recital for the first time, and I wanted to replicate.
But time goes so fast, the chosen piece is far from being ready, so I selected another one, easier.
But my piano is no more in tune, and I'm really struggling to have a decent recording from my DP (I put a jack into my laptop and record with Audacity - no MIDI, I don't have the cable and don't want to buy a software for acquisition). Trying to perform with headphones is so strange.
I have also recorded several times the piece I'm polishing for the live recital - listening to my playing is really helpful - so I'm considering to submit one of those; each of them is taken like in a recital, only one shot no matter how it's going.
But the piano is not in tune, and my technician will not come before the deadline...

What should I submit? A bad recording of a nice little piece on the DP, or a quasi-decent one of my recital piece on an out of tune acoustic? I'm not even considering the possibility of recording the easier piece on the acoustic because there are several weird chords that really need a freshly tuned piano.
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 09:34 AM

Torquenale, many of us record from DP to audacity - true, it isn't as pretty as the acoustic, but if the acoustic is out of tune, it can be the better choice.

I would say that I have used the record to audacity feature for more than half of my submissions - in part because of tuning (or lack of it) - and in part because we live really near a church and the bells ring ....a lot!



Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by casinitaly
... we live really near a church and the bells ring ....a lot!


Does the bell ringing coincide with the noise from the Netherworld?
Posted By: SwissMS

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by casinitaly
...
What I think is the most important thing is that the recordings are honest representations of our abilities to play.



I have been following this discussion with interest and I think Casinitaly sums it up very well. One thing that I love about this forum is the mutual supportiveness. This is in no way a competition. As adult beginners/intermediates we know our playing is not perfect. That is not the point. These recitals give us a chance to celebrate where we are in our piano journey. The feedback in the reviews encourages us to keep striving for better. I believe my playing has improved over the last 2 1/2 years in part because of the feedback from these recitals. I take the constructive remarks to heart and work on improving my playing. If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback. The quarterlies are still easier than a live recital, but doing them gave me the courage to DO live recitals. So knowing what I submit is a good representation of my current playing ability, and knowing this community will be supportive has kept me coming back every quarter.
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by rnaple
Originally Posted by casinitaly
... we live really near a church and the bells ring ....a lot!


Does the bell ringing coincide with the noise from the Netherworld?


Not recently smile
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by SwissMS

I have been following this discussion with interest
...
These recitals give us a chance to celebrate where we are in our piano journey
...
If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback. ...

I've also followed with interest ... each time this discussion comes up. There are some valid points on both sides, but no clear consensus it seems. Perhaps general guidelines may help, IF, consensus (Majority Rules) can be arrived at.

For example, Acceptable Edits may include;
- Removing dead time before and after
- Improving sound quality (filters, equalization, adjusting gains etc.)
- Fade ins/outs
- etc.

Unacceptable edits:
- Using same clip in more then one place in same recording. NEVER. Example, using one recorded A phrase to make up the repeat or closing A. Play it again or leave it out.
- Starting again after an error while recording, but editing out the error. No. Always play through the error.
- Removing playing hesitations within the recording. No. Continue working on this to correct the hesitation (if not intentional) but, please leave it and show us.
- Replacing/Pasting anything (note or a few bars) within a complete recorded section (see "Grey area" below).
- may be others

Grey area
edits:
Pasting together sections.

This may be considered acceptable (majority rules) in some circumstances provided:
- Each section is a complete section on its own (ie a bridge passage or a complete A,B,C phrase or coda.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If we were to compile general guidelines, it may help guide the direction we want to go with the ABF recital and uphold the values important to us. It is after all a fabulous venue that continues to grow in popularity and with new participants coming on board each time. It is worth the effort, IMO, to establish standards that will keep it great.

A single pass recording should always be the aim, but with some restricted exceptions permitted (as above). The underlying purpose is to present a point in time recording of whatever project you have chosen to present. We can, have and are able to help each other with this in mind. The effort is defeated, however without a true representation of your playing.

This is what I think.

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves

...
No one can play without mistakes, period, unless they play sounding like a robot, which is far worse than mistakes.
...

Of course, everyone makes mistakes. But it is very attainable to learn, practice and perform a single piece, without mistakes. It is in fact what we are all striving for. Until we get there though ... just show it as it is. IT'S FOR OUR OWN GOOD.




Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 03:49 PM

Casinitaly said:
Quote
But then some might argue what's the difference in editing out dead air and editing out a flubbed passage?


I guess ultimately, I don't think that editing out a pause and editing out a flubbed passage are all that different. In my case, the pause made it possible me for me to play the next section without messing up. And, the pause itself can be considered a mistake or a flub. By this I mean, it's not in the score, it's not musical, and I didn't pause diliberately. So in this regard, although the results are the same, editing out a pause and editing out a page-turn (which I have done before) might be regarded differently....

SwissMs said:
Quote
The feedback in the reviews encourages us to keep striving for better. I believe my playing has improved over the last 2 1/2 years in part because of the feedback from these recitals. I take the constructive remarks to heart and work on improving my playing. If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback.


This is another area where I differ. I have never wanted technical feedback on recordings that I share on ABF (or for that matter, on recordings I share my on Facebook page, or recordings I share with my family). First of all, I have a teacher, who knows my playing better than anyone else, and if I want feedback, I rely on her for that.

My recording is no longer a "work-in-progress" (even though all of my recordings can be improved on, and I've found that my playing of a recorded piece improves after I've stopped trying to record it), it's a snapshot of where I am with the piece at that moment. And just like with photos that we keep and look at in years to come, my recordings are the same. I keep them and listen to them.

So, by the time I'm ready to record, or by the time I decide I can't get any better and I might as well record (which is what happens most often), I know the shortcomings of my performance. And I don't see the online recital, or any other kind of recital , as a time for feedback, for me, it's a time to share my piano-playing where it is now. For those reasons, I have always selected no to feedback ever since it's been an option.

Back to the topic of editing, I guess by Greener's standards (which, as no one will be surprised to hear, I don't fully agree with), my recording would be considered unacceptable.

Greener said:
Quote
The underlying purpose is to present a point in time recording of whatever project you have chosen to present... The effort is defeated, however without a true representation of your playing.


I believe my recording is a true representation of my playing. And IMO it's a much truer representation than someone who recorded several sections at different times/days and later stitched them together. But, having said that, if someone wanted to record that way and share it, I would not call that unacceptable.

And I would think that would still be a better representation of someone's playing than more complicated editing, like adding notes or swapping out mistaken notes with the correct ones or something like that. I myself don't have the know-how, or the software or recording equipment, to do that kind of editing. And I work hard to bring my pieces up to performance level, so if I needed that kind of editing, I would not consider that piece ready for recording.

But that's my stance toward my own music. When I do a recording for the ABF recitals, I always share that recording with friends and family, who I sometimes play for in real life/real time, so I want the recording to be representative of how I can actually play. I would be embarrassed to share something that suggested I can play in a way I actually cannot.

So should we allow other, more elaborate (or some might say evasive) editing? I don't know.... You can't edit if you don't have anything to edit, so the person would have played something. And I guess that level of editing in itself is a kind of musical skill (Glenn Gould anyone?) and if people are upfront with what they're doing, why not allow it? Although, I don't know what Midi can do, if there's something that lets people string notes together that they didn't actually play, well IMO that would be dishonest.

In the absence of a consensus, perhaps we just need to ask people to be honest about what they've done. Then each member can decide for him or herself about whether to listen to and/or comment on the recording.
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

Back to the topic of editing, I guess by Greener's standards (which, as no one will be surprised to hear, I don't fully agree with), my recording would be considered unacceptable.

Not my standards, but an example of the type of standards that we could possibly put in place, if agreed upon by a majority and general consensus.

All this discussion has been discussed before and no hard rules put in place. So, nothing changes immediately and may not at all, without buy in from everyone or at least the majority.

Plus, I do not expect we will be engaging the ABF Recital Police to enforce adherence. So, you can always disagree and do things your own way anyway. But, when questions come up about it, it may help if we have general guidelines about the matter.

Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else. General guidelines may help. Or not ... smile



Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:20 PM

In the heat of this moment, I'll have to say -

if we think it's alright to edit out the mistakes, like those "sloppy octaves" I had in my very first piece, or the wrong note on the very last note I played in one piece, or the "tremolo" my professional musician brother laughed at at the end of Sentimental Journey, or the long pause I had in Bethena that I still laugh at because I still wonder if I'm going to start again even tho I recorded it and I *know* I'm going to - or the pasted repeats, or whatever -

I'm outta here.

In the meantime, if that's your standard for recording you're certainly welcome to skip mine. And for the record, I send them to the friends and family.

I'm not a professional recording artist. I don't aspire to be. Frankly, recording is harder for me than playing live, and no where near as rewarding. I know that's backwards from many people, but there it is.

I just left a band I'd been with for almost 20 years because the "oh let's do performances because we're so cool and we can be the band" folks won out over the "let's play music with a bunch of friends and some of them will dance and some will play music" leaning folks. While a recital, including an on-line one, isn't quite the latter, for me the ABF recital is *definitely* not the former.

I also don't do real-life recitals. I enjoy those of friends who play violin, or sing (well, some friends who sing laugh ), but they are really not my orientation. I gig a lot, tho, 4 or 5 times a month.

What comes out in my recital pieces is exactly what happens at a gig. Sloppy octaves, wrong last notes, and all.

For me, the editing is about the technology, not the playing. For me, editing inside the playing *is* different than editing the silence at the beginning and the end. If Sam and Diana take naps in between movements and say so, it still leaves a piece that, while playing, is a one-pass piece, mistakes and all.

For those of you who want your recordings to be for posterity, why not submit one to the ABF, and an edited one for posterity? Shiro Kuro, I have always enjoyed, and been a little in awe of, your piano journey. You approach it in many ways very differently from the way I approach mine. Do you really, live, playing for family, not have those pauses? If you *do* have those pauses, could you think of the ABF as "family/friends - live" and, as I say, submit a "live" recording, and then edit it for the official recording?

I think, as someone else said above, that editing is kind of a slippery slope/arms race. I don't even watch 99.99% of the videos, and tho I probably wouldn't submit to a classical themed recital any way, there was one that required a video, and that for sure would be a deal-breaker.

I may get flamed out of the ABF for this post, but I really do feel strongly. For me, the ABF quarterlies aren't about the technology - they're as close as we can come to a live recital, or, more likely in my case, a real live piano party. God forbid if I edited an ABF quarterly piece and then went to a piano party and everyone expected me to play up to that standard laugh

Cathy
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 04:27 PM

Actually, for the minute, I guess for me anyway, the disclosure part is the beginnings of a compromise. I think there's been some discussion of that in that in the past. Then I know, any way. But maybe in the long run Mr Super-Hunky's floater of a separate recital for more technology-enhanced pieces would work. I suspect I would listen to those, just as I listen to themed recitals that I don't play in, and enjoy them for what they are.

Cathy
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 05:12 PM

Cathy, I see nothing inflammatory in what you said.
You put forward some good points.

Greener made a good proposal for a discussion on rules --- personally I'd rather keep any guidelines even more simple: Post your own work, unedited except for removing dead air at the beginning and end.

(Mind you, I wouldn't even know how to do most of the edits you mentioned Greener smile )


It is also my feeling that any concensus reached will be implemented at the next recital. I can't see us asking anyone to redo a recording at this late date and I don't think it is in the spirit of our community to ask anyone to withdraw their submission as a result of this discussion. Just my opinion, obviously smile


Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 05:25 PM

Greener, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else.

What does it mean for a recording to be "what it is and not something else?"


Jotur, I appreciate your comments, and you candor. And I agree with Casinitaly, your comments are not "inflammatory"

Regarding this:
Quote
In the meantime, if that's your standard for recording you're certainly welcome to skip mine.

I don't have a standard for recordings. I have a goal for my own recordings. Everyone else's recording, I take them as they are presented, as a musical gift. I have always enjoyed yours, as I have everyone else's in the ABFs.


Quote
Shiro Kuro, I have always enjoyed, and been a little in awe of, your piano journey.

Thank you Jotur, that's a very kind thing to say.


Quote
Do you really, live, playing for family, not have those pauses?

On good days, yes, I don't have those pauses. And when I do have a pause (while playing live for someone) they can't go back and rewind and we won't hear it again.


Jotur, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Actually, for the minute, I guess for me anyway, the disclosure part is the beginnings of a compromise.

Do you mean compromise in a postive, neutral or negative way? Do you mean this as something different from your earlier comment about editing being a slippery slope?


Casinitaly said:
Quote
It is also my feeling that any concensus reached will be implemented at the next recital. I can't see us asking anyone to redo a recording at this late date and I don't think it is in the spirit of our community to ask anyone to withdraw their submission as a result of this discussion.


It's very kind of you to say this, but I'm feeling less comfortable participating as this thread goes on....
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Greener, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else.

What does it mean for a recording to be "what it is and not something else?"

Yes, I see what you mean ... it sounds contradicting.

For me, recital recordings should simply comply to the spirit of the ABF recital which is "An unedited snap shop of any given project at a particular point in time."

If it turns out that the overall general consensus agrees that all kinds of exceptions are permitted, with full disclosure, then also fine for me. In this case, if I were to come across a disclosure like "I edited out 5 mistakes, removed two hesistations, and the second and third A sections are a repeat of the first" I would simply pass on it, as it is not what the ABF recital represents for me.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

...
I'm feeling less comfortable participating as this thread goes on....

Please do not. This is not a personal attack and is good dialog of a topic that clearly requires more dialog. You have not and are not doing anything wrong. My views have changed on the issue over time and I have myself done edits in the past that I would not accept for myself now.

Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 06:26 PM

Hi, Shiro Kuro - what I mean by "disclosure is the beginning of a compromise" is that since there isn't a consensus, that disclosing edits within the playing is a way of allowing me anyway, to understand that the recording isn't "live" the way I understand "live" to be or "this is the way I play at this point in time" to be. It's a broader/more inclusive viewpoint that the ABF as whole may want.

Alas, I don't have as many "good days" as you have laugh On a good day I may actually not stop on *any* pieces and might play thru *all* the mistakes. I might, in a pinch, have one piece out of 20 that actually has no mistakes.

I think one of the major divides between those of us who prefer "no edits" to those who, like you, want a recording that can be listened to without hearing a pause every time it is played is exactly that. I don't record with any expectation at all that it's going to be listened to again and again. It's always a one-time thing that I e-mail out and people listen to once and then delete laugh

And that's really a personal/personality thing I think, rather than a "cheating or not" thing. I almost never listen to recorded music. Last night a friend of mine and I went to a pizza place to hear the accordion player. Tonight there is live music at a dance, provided by a "pick up" band of any one who wants to play. Tomorrow afternoon is the community concert band's mothers day concert. I played once a week for a "jam" (not, to me, a rehearsal) with the band I was in. Once a month I go to a live music jam of traditional music. I hosted a "people who are new/rusty on their instruments" jam a while back, and will do so again. On earth day there was music by a high school marimba band, not to mention the cacaphony in the parade with people on trumpets and cowbells laugh A couple of weeks ago some friends and I went to a pub and danced to live country western music. A friend's choir is holding its annual dessert concert tomorrow, too. I often go to both the farmers market and the artisans market just to listen to the live music.

So my music experience is different from many, many people here. And different from even the possibilities that many, many people here have, particularly for participation.

Which is why I think, for the minute, the disclosure option would work. As strongly as I feel, there are a lot of different viewpoints out there, and for a lot of different reasons.

But I am strongly biased toward "live" music, and what I think of as "community" music. Many people here either don't have the chance to hear, much less play, that kind of music, and in many of those venues the kind of music that others enjoy isn't played. So mine is an idiosyncratic preference.

And, as I said, I don't even do live recitals, so in some ways I'm out of step with the original idea any way, although I do perform live often.

But, yeah, if changing the wrong notes, cutting and pasting, etc, becomes the norm, then the quarterly recitals aren't my venue.

Cathy
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 07:03 PM

Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee (Monica, mr_super-hunky, Copper, Sam S) determine the bottom line, not Greener. And it's stated on the submission website

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/

FAIK, anything is fine as long as it's an original performance in which you yourself participated.
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by wouter79

Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee (Monica, mr_super-hunky, Copper, Sam S) determine the bottom line, not Greener. And it's stated on the submission website

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/

FAIK, anything is fine as long as it's an original performance in which you yourself participated.

Thanks wouter79 for your vote laugh .

It is my observation that for the most part at least, we are self regulated here without an established hierarchy of who sets rules. With the exception, of course of the rules and code of conduct set forth by Piano World Administration. As such, what is stated on the submission website, came about as the result of agreed upon consensus. I could be wrong about this, but do not think I am.

I am NOT trying to establish any rules or affect any bottom line on my own. Rather, I am just participating in a dialog towards perhaps establishing rules/standards IF, and only IF, it is felt to be beneficial by consensus.


Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by wouter79
Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee ...


Gee... I thought the recital committee was a dictatorship of Rossy's Basset Hound? smile

I can't believe you all have posted all this today. Like a Congressional Investigation! Geesh.....
I"m still stuck on the 15 seconds of nothing. At least we have another opinion on 18 hours of static recorded...
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 08:28 PM

Greener:
Quote
Please do not. This is not a personal attack and is good dialog of a topic that clearly requires more dialog. You have not and are not doing anything wrong

Thank you for that.

Cathy, all your musical activities are so amazing! Playing with others is a skill I haven't had the opportunity to develop, so I envy you that.

regarding this:
Quote
then the quarterly recitals aren't my venue.

See, here's the thing about that... I think the quarterly recitals are your venue, and they are mine. I want us (and everone else) to be welcome in these recitals together. I have always felt that ABF is where I best fit in. I've said this many times here before. I may no longer strictly be a beginner, but I began as an adult and because of that I will always consider myself an adult-beginner. And, the ABF has played a big role in my journey as a pianist and in how I have been able to keep playing and keep improving. The MOYD and recitals have been a huge part of my progression as well (although I haven't been as consistent as I was before I started grad school). So I would hope that the recitals will continue to be somewhere that you and I, and our different approaches, are both welcomed.

Ok, I'll stop. Anyone who hasn't been reading this for the last 24 hours is going to open this thread, look at my posts, and just go "ugh tl;dr" (too long, didn't read)
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by jotur
(...) God forbid if I edited an ABF quarterly piece and then went to a piano party and everyone expected me to play up to that standard laugh

Ah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. Great, Cathy, just great.

Well, I've been reading this discussion but, sorry guys, I'm more concerned with this question: The show begins in how many days???? laugh
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by CarlosCC
The show begins in how many days???? laugh


A little over four, but I can get it down to three with Audacity.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/10/14 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Whizbang
Originally Posted by CarlosCC
The show begins in how many days???? laugh


A little over four, but I can get it down to three with Audacity.


laugh
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
laugh


wink
Posted By: hreichgott

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 12:49 AM

Hi all, just wanted to say I'm glad this thread is here. There is another forum to which I submit recordings where the expectation is that any mistakes *will* be edited out -- the admins' opinion being that mistakes detract from the enjoyability of the recording upon repeated listens -- and I have had recordings rejected from there because there were a few unedited errors. It is helpful to know what the expectations are in each community.

Personally, I could go either way. I don't myself feel that a few mistakes destroy the enjoyability of a recording, but I agree with the person above who said that "something must have been played" -- you can edit for accuracy, but it's impossible to edit artistry into a performance that didn't have it to start with. I also agree that edits can be an "arms race" and people feel more pressure to produce note-perfect submissions if there are note-perfect submissions all around them.

Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:46 AM

I'm in smile

Cathy
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 04:00 AM

The reason there are no steadfast rules for the ABF quarterly recitals is because we are the fun loving bunch. It's the people over in the Pianist Corner who are the stuffy ones; not us.

The concept of our quarterly recitals is just so basic. Play a piece the best you can for your current abilities, record it, and share it with everyone to hear and enjoy. Over time, as you improve, you, along with everyone else will hear and notice your improvements. Something for everyone to appreciate.

What is so difficult to understand with this educational model?

If you must misrepresent your abilities by editing out mistakes, multi-track record difficult sections because it is too difficult to play, splice pre-recorded sections together, all in an Advanced, Intermediate, Beginning level [as in most basic] group, you are pathetic! Seriously. This is the most basic level you can get. It's like cheating in Kindergarten. Even I waited until 3rd or 4th grade to cheat; but not in Kindergarten!

In addition, 'disclosing' that you've done the aforementioned is NOT okay either. Why?, because it was not the original intention of the recitals and is actually counterproductive to what they are trying to accomplish. In addition, it's not fair to everyone else who is accurately representing their abilities and trying their best by submitting an undoctored/unedited recording.

If we, [as a group] want an additional thread to showcase our musical production talents....where you can edit, splice, overdub, multi-track record, acoustically alter sounds, enhance dynamics...and so on... then we could easily start one at any time. Just in the meantime, please don't confuse that possibility with the existing quarterly recitals as they are clearly not the same. Both in their original intent and resulting outcome.


Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by wouter79

The recital committee (Monica, mr_super-hunky, Copper, Sam S) determine the bottom line, not Greener. And it's stated on the submission website

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/



Well, there is no "recital committee" that decides policy. When a change is made, it's only after reading everyone's opinion, and deciding on some consensus if possible. The last change we made was to the title of the recital, adding "Beginner and Beyond", and I only did that after the topic was discussed at length in the forum.

So let's please not get all worked up about editing recordings. I personally think it has been going on since the recitals began, but we'll never know unless the performer shares that fact with us. It's impossible to detect, except maybe by a trained professional.

I spliced together two sections of my Joplin recital submission. I actually took a long break (a nap) between recording them. It's doubtful that anyone could tell without me sharing that info. The recording also had many wrong notes and pregnant pauses, just like all my other recordings. If I ever submit anything that is note perfect, you will know that it was edited!

Any restriction on edited recordings is going to be unenforceable. I certainly will not be the person snooping around and calling out names.

A policy could be stated in the recital text, if we could decide on a consensus, but the process of deciding what to say would be contentious and lead to hurt feelings and possibly restrict participation.

Ultimately, I think we are individuals here. Submit what our conscience tells you is right.

Sam
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:35 AM

Seems like the current set of rules has always worked so I doubt it would be worth changing them. We all want the same thing: a high level of engagement and support for the music we care about. No need to get too concerned about the who, what, where, why or how. There are many participants with different skill levels and different reasons for sharing their music. I'm just glad that they do and maybe we should only have a policy to not share how the sausage is made. whistle

I bit more on topic, I made another recording yesterday and I might make it my new submission. It took several days before I could actually get some decent uninterrupted practice where I wasn't completely exhausted. I think I might get another good session today so I'll hold off on resubmitting.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 12:37 PM

Mr S-H, you know you basically just accused me of misrepresenting myself and cheating, right? I'll try to assume that's not as mean-spirited as it sounds.

Beyond that, you contradict yourself in your post. The ABF recital can't be a "non-stuffy" event with no steadfast rules, and still adhere 100% to your stipulations that no recording be altered in any way.

I think Sam's and Pathfinder's comments are very telling. It never occurred to me to think about it before this thread/this discussion about editing, but as Sam says, editing has probably been going on forever, and we likely have no way of knowing who did or didn't.

Last night, I was very close to deleting my submission from the recital, but I'm glad I didn't. Here's why.

This recording is my musical gift to anyone who is willing to accept it by listening. It's 100% representative of my playing, and I'm proud of it. If you think my teeny-tiny edit might change whether you consider this a "true, live recording" or not, that's ok, and we can talk about that, and if people want, we could talk about where we draw the line about what kind of editing is ok, and what kind isn't. (Because, thanks to this thread, I've had a lot of time to think about that and I now know my own mind, as it were.)

But, if you think my recording is misrepresentative and cheating, please don't listen. Because this recording is the result of my blood-sweat-and-tears devotion to the piano for 15 years and counting, and if you can't accept that at face-value, the way we do when we receive any kind of gift from anyone, then my musical offering is not for you.

But otherwise, please do listen because this is a beautiful piece of music that I love without reservation. And that's why I want to share it with everyone here, in the ABF quarterly recital. Why do I want to share it here in the quarterly recital? Because ABF and these recitals are a huge reason why my playing is what it is today.
Posted By: Sand Tiger

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 01:51 PM

I am the lowest of the low participating in the discussion and the recital. I'm with Jotur and Mr. Super-Hunky. My vote is for minimal edits. If a person wants to give us a "gift" go ahead and link that special version in the comments section as the heavily edited version. Share that heavy edit version with your friends. Burn a CD. Whatever. Upload the minimally edited version for the recital. It will still be better than most of the other submissions.

I don't see what the hang up is over doing that. What is this really about? Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh. That there are those with performance degrees and teachers, submitting to a beginner recital (relabeled as beginners and beyond so those advanced people can keep their self-esteem). All of these people are welcome, I guess.

Heavily edited music is every where. Every commercial studio recording is now done that way and a reason I much prefer live music, or at least a simulation of live music, warts and all. I see the heavily edited commercial music as a plague upon the land, but it isn't going away, it is what it is.

I vote for minimal edits for the uploads. Those wanting to share a gift, link the heavily edited version in the comments section. This gives everyone their cake. I vote that the recital guidelines make this much clearer. If they were clearer from the beginning this situation would never have gotten so far. If people still insist on heavy edits, of course nothing can be done. It just needs to be made clear what is preferred.

I have zero sympathy for those with vast experience that feel the need for heavy edits. If the piece is not ready, full of hesitations after multiple takes, record another piece that is ready. If there is only one minor tiny edit, then upload the version with the one tiny minor flaw. Why is that so difficult? What is the big deal about keeping with the spirit of the recital? Why the need to cheat? To show that you are bigger and better than the rest of us with a cleaner version? Because you are so ashamed of having a tiny flub in any public version? Really? If there is no time to record a clean version, perhaps sit it out. Send the heavily edited version to the monthly piano bar or link it in the comments section of the recital submission.

And no, to me, the edited versions are not representative of your playing. They are representative of your edited playing. Big difference. The difference between live and recorded (or at least the simulation of live).

Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sam S

Ultimately, I think we are individuals here. Submit what our conscience tells you is right.

This sums it up well enough for me.
Originally Posted by hreichgott

...
There is another forum to which I submit recordings where the expectation is that any mistakes *will* be edited out

It may be quite enough to know and maybe even state (as the subject resurfaces from time to time,) that we do not have this expectation within the ABF Beginner and Beyond recitals. On the contrary ... we highly encourage unaltered recordings.

Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:11 PM

I thought the ABF was a place where everyone was welcome, regardless of playing ability, or years of experience. Guess I was wrong.

Anyway, I have updated my submission. Laurie and I added another movement from the clarinet suite, which I spliced onto the end of the recording and the video. If the fact that I spliced the movements together offends you, then you can just ignore our music-making.

So everyone else moves up one in the list.

Sam
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
Seems like the current set of rules has always worked so I doubt it would be worth changing them. We all want the same thing: a high level of engagement and support for the music we care about.(...)

+1 thumb
IMO there is only one solution for this discussion: let's do an International Piano Party (IPP) and let's share our music, live - no edits! -, with others. That's the main spirit, I think. smile

Wow, 36 pieces in our recital so far!
Posted By: outo

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:25 PM

I have never taken part in these recitals before, but suddenly got the idea this weekend that maybe I should.

But recording is hard frown

My piano sounds awful, the tuner won't be in until the end of may. The bass also sounds out of balance with the recording device I am using...I'm not in good shape and playing is difficult. And in addition to that I got the worst case of red dot syndrome. I manage to have zero concentration on music, I just cannot help thinking about the recording device and whether the take will be fine or not.

So now I have quite a few takes of the piece, bad and worse and I wonder whether I should just forget about it or submit one of those. Recording after today won't be possible and I am not going to waste time with editing.

Will there be a prize for the worst recording? grin
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:44 PM


Greener

>Thanks wouter79 for your vote .

Good smile

I just thought it important, to me, your long list of "acceptable edits" and "unacceptable edits" for me exactly seem to comprise a set of "rules" that I'm so glad we don't have so far.

>I am NOT trying to establish any rules or affect any bottom line on my own. Rather, I am just participating in a dialog towards perhaps establishing rules/standards IF, and only IF, it is felt to be beneficial by consensus.

Beginners here well may take your list as the de-facto consensus on this. This is a major reason why I was placing the opposite standpoint.

rnaple

>I can't believe you all have posted all this today. Like a Congressional Investigation! Geesh.....

Sorry to hear this. I was rather trying to STOP all this investigation and rule stuff.
It seems all it does is scaring away the newcomers

Sam S

>A policy could be stated in the recital text, if we could decide on a consensus, but the process of deciding what to say would be contentious and lead to hurt feelings and possibly restrict participation. Ultimately, I think we are individuals here. Submit what our conscience tells you is right.

Exactly my thoughts. We're all adults, Let's focus on our shared love for the music
instead of battling over how it was made.

ShiroKuro

>This recording is my musical gift to anyone who is willing to accept it by listening. It's 100% representative of my playing, and I'm proud of it.

Yes, please post, this is why I'm listening here. I don't care whether or how much you "cheated".
I want to hear your message.

I agree minimal edits are nice. Furthermore, being able to play your piece in one sitting will give better music.
But IMHO priority is the music.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by outo


So now I have quite a few takes of the piece, bad and worse and I wonder whether I should just forget about it or submit one of those. Recording after today won't be possible and I am not going to waste time with editing.

Will there be a prize for the worst recording? grin


I think you should submit it.

Think of it as a "unplugged" concert performance which I prefer at times. ......

RE: EDITS
Could this issue be made clear? by analogy to stage plays.....
Lets say , your in the mood for Shakespeare,
ummm maybe , "Much Ado About Nothing" and you're out of season for the Shakespeare festival at the college or live, like me, in a old milltown that doesn't have a stagehouse anyway, and most of the live music performed there in town sounds like Betty Davis in "Whatever happened ......"""
So you go to Netflix and rent the one directed by Kenneth Branagh, then you watch it, and say
"Wow, that was really good. But I noticed it wasn't on a stage and clearly I didn't see the pauses between scenes and lines, so he must of ...(used cue cards ,,, or ,fill in what you want here)
Noooooo , you don't do that...... No way,.... instead you think , "Wow that was good. Really good . I'm going to rent more of these plays".

or Maybe start "unplugged" recital quaterlies,, meaning no edits.
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:01 PM

I seriously do appreciate Mr. SH's input on this. Good guidelines.

I personally don't care what people do. It's their ball game.

I would like to share my fondest memory of recitals here. Also hopefully find that person again. It was back probably about the time MrSH set up official recitals? It was years ago. One of the times I tried starting piano. I lost my job and had to dump it. I was criticizing everything, constructively.
This person uploaded their performance of "I'll Be Seeing You". That person's mother had died. She always said that to everyone instead of good bye. The person played it because of her and remembering her. I had access to Yamaha's database of pieces. I downloaded the technically perfect version from Yamaha. I compared the two. The Beginner's version was better. I told them so. I'll never forget this one Recital piece. I do forget who the person was. I wonder if they're still here?
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by outo
. . .And in addition to that I got the worst case of red dot syndrome. . .

Will there be a prize for the worst recording? grin


<snort> There's *always* a worse case of red dot syndrome. But if you submit you'll get on the Order of the Red Dot list and a medal!

I got a trophy once for worst performance - in bowling. I had the lowest average in the league. I told them I wouldn't accept it if my average came out lower than 100 - even I have my limits to embarrassment. I had a 101. The trophy is the guy standing on his bowling ball with his thumb stuck in the thumb hole. Pretty funny.

Order of the Red Dot forever!

Cathy
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:18 PM

Sand Tiger, with all due respect, I categorically reject any depiction of my recording as cheating, or for that matter, as heavily edited. For anyone just tuning in, I edited out a pause in one spot in my recording, that's all. No additions, no alterations of the notes you hear.

Also, in case anyone is wondering, I no longer have my original recording with the pause, because I saved that change within Audacity before making the mp3 file. But at this point, I don't think I'd re-submit that version even if I still had it. What with all the vitriol in this thread, I want to keep my recording on principle, because this is one acceptable way, among many other acceptable ways, to participate in the recital.

As for my (or anyone else's) years of experience, I've said this a million times here. I began as an adult-beginner, and although my playing is now at an intermediate level, I will always consider myself an adult-beginner. And, by the way, I joined this forum (specifically for the ABF) about 10 years ago (FWIW, I believe Mr S-H joined around the same time). This is my pianistic home, and I'm not too keen on being kicked out, thank you very much.

Wouter79:
Quote
Yes, please post, this is why I'm listening here

Thank you for these words.

Sam said:
Quote
I thought the ABF was a place where everyone was welcome, regardless of playing ability, or years of experience.


I will continue to believe that the ABF is just such a place.

Outo, please submit your piece. I'm looking forward to hearing it!
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:45 PM

piano primo - "unplugged" was the original expectations of the quarterlies. So the "plugged" laugh ones should be the new recital.

So I'll restate where I think I've gotten to -

I much prefer *no editing inside the playing*. I would like to know if that's been done, so that, for me, I know what I'm listening to and will "manage my expectations" laugh - as another thread is discussing. In other words, I will "expect" a less flawed piece than I might listen to at a "live" recital or a piano party. I don't really listen to see how good the "recording" is, but at least I can try to listen past that if I want. I don't get intimidated by other people's playing, as Sand Tiger worries that many do, but I do have a different sense of what it is I'm listening to.

So, for me, the "disclosure" option works.

We do have "productions" - people doing slide shows, playing with band-in-a-box or equivalent, or adding strings from their keyboard, etc. As long as the piano playing is all them, the disclosure option still works for me. At some point, for me, all the "production" gets in the way of hearing a friend play piano, but I actually do skip the videos mostly already, and many of the "productions". If it's not about the piano playing but is about the "production" I skip it. Again, for me, that's not what the ABF quarterlis are about, and I'd rather that was in a new, separate recital. I would gather that some people also edit within the playing, but I also suspect I already skip some of those for various reasons.

Again, for me, this is an Adult Beginner and Beyond Piano recital, not a "recording" or "production" music forum, so if it's primarily about recording quality or production razz ma tazz, I think it belongs in a different thread than the ABF quarterly. I don't mind it in the ABF - people share many different kinds of music they like in the Rostowsky's Serious thread, for instance - and I think that's a valid thing to do.

I would just prefer, if it's going to be a recital that isn't primarily about the music that Adult Beginners (started as a beginner, or restarted as an adult) make when they sit down and play a piece then it should be a different presentation. It's not really a "recital" at that point, as I think of a recital. And since the ABF quarterlies have been about the music Adult Beginners sitting down to play a piece the best they can do, those with a desire to do something different - productions, or the best edited/enhanced recording they can do or whatever - are the ones who should start a new presentation. There's all kinds of "themed" recitals now that have a different flavor than the quarterlies, and that's fine, and there's room for more.

But the quarterlies have their own raison d'etre, and I'd rather they not get mutated. Have what ever kind of "recital" you want, I have no problem with that, nor does Mr Super-Hunky, but don't mutate the quarterlies. And it isn't up to those of us who have played the quarterlies over the years to start a new recital series, it's up to those who want something different to do that.

Cathy




Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:52 PM

piano primo - about the renting the netflix - I "don't" think that, but again, I know what I'm getting. Frankly, I almost always prefer the local middle school's live performance, and I think of the ABF quarterlies as the local middle school's live performance. It's not about, to me, how good the production quality is, or even the acting or direction, it's about the "live" music of friends. A distinct difference. If you prefer something different, and would rather that's what people are paying attention to in your submissions, then I think that's what belongs in a recital dedicated to that smile You apparently want "professional" stuff to be accepted along with the local middle school stuff in the ABF quarterlies, because one accepts both on their own terms. I don't. I want the local middle school. I want the Adult Beginner Forum Quarterly recital, with real live Adult Beginners. The other stuff, on its own terms, to me, belongs somewhere else.

Cathy
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by jotur
But the quarterlies have their own raison d'etre, and I'd rather they not get mutated. Have what ever kind of "recital" you want, I have no problem with that, nor does Mr Super-Hunky, but don't mutate the quarterlies. And it isn't up to those of us who have played the quarterlies over the years to start a new recital series, it's up to those who want something different to do that.

..... I want the Adult Beginner Forum Quarterly recital, with real live Adult Beginners. The other stuff, on its own terms, to me, belongs somewhere else.



I spent a long time trying to write a reply to the last few posts but Cathy has summed it up nicely.

I'd also like to add that I don't think there is any wide-spread feeling of "we don't want advanced players in ABF".
We've been over this I don't know how many times and while some folks are upset or intimidated by more experienced players, I think a greater number truly appreciate seeing how others, farther along in their piano journey, are doing.
Posted By: outo

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

Outo, please submit your piece. I'm looking forward to hearing it!


I guess I must then. I will just use the first take with some mistakes, since I don't want to listen through them anymore...
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 04:10 PM

wouter79 - for you, it's "about the music" no matter how it's produced.

That isn't true for me, in the sense I think you mean it, nor do I think that's the spirit of the ABF quarterlies.

I think, for you, "the music" is independent of the people and circumstances of its production, and "beautiful music" is, to you, more flawless than not, and more important than the circumstances.

For me, the ABF quarterly recitals are about the music that a particular group of people is making at this stage of their piano journey, and is *not* inseparable from their playing ability at this moment in time. In fact, it is joyous precisely because of their playing ability at this point in time. It is *not* about how well they can edit their playing at this point in time in order to make "more note-perfect music" or whatever their goal is with editing. You might separate the people from the recording, but I don't think that's the spirit of the ABF recitals. For the ABF recitals I think the people and the actual performance as is are not seperable, they are the whole point.

Cathy

Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 04:25 PM

Re:
Quote
Jotur- You apparently want "professional" stuff to be accepted along with the local middle school stuff

My performance is a basic version, I did it 2 sessions because it's a near 5 min piece.
These post are beyond the edit or no edit , pro or no pro.
I would consider misrepresenting "skill level" ( which is a "another" issue rather than music issue) more a issue of copying or editing a performance you didn't even perform and claiming it as your own.
But I "get" your statement . I just don't agree.
I could it -any- way .



Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 04:34 PM

Jotur said:
Quote
For me, the ABF quarterly recitals are about the music that a particular group of people is making at this stage of their piano journey, and is *not* inseparable from their playing ability at this moment in time.


There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the recording I submitted which is separated from my playing ability at this moment in time. This is the music I'm making right now, with my fingers, on my piano. And although I am proud of it, I'm also painfully aware of its shortcomings. really, it's ironic that I am making this effort to stick up for my recording, when I wasn't even sure if I was going to keep it or not until I played for my teacher and she gave it her blessing (edit and all).

Jotur also said:
Quote
I want the Adult Beginner Forum Quarterly recital, with real live Adult Beginners. The other stuff, on its own terms, to me, belongs somewhere else.


So you're saying that my recording, and Sam's, and probably more than a few others, don't belong in the quarterly recital? I just want that to be very clear. Because, that's a pretty strong, and, frankly, exclusionary statement to make.
Posted By: casinitaly

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:10 PM

Shirokuro, I truly don't see vitriol going on here, nor do I believe that you have misrepresented your skills level, or that anyone seriously thinks you have.
You have been, and are, a well respected and apprecited member of this community.


As I said before, in the scale of what could be considered "acceptable editing" taking out some dead air is pretty tame. At the same time, there's also a valid point in asking why take it out when others (myself included) present pieces that are seriously more flawed?

I'm not going to get in a huff if someone does it - but neither do I want to get into a situation where we encourage editing and make rules about what is and isn't acceptable. Which is what I understood Cathy's point to be.

I'd like to hear what those in this community can do- warts and all.

Yes, there's the fact that our recordings are there for "all time" so to speak, but ...(I ask this with kindness, not sarcasm) - so what? If anyone wants to give tweaked versions to their dear ones, go for it - but the recordings here serve (for me at least) as excellent bench marks of what is representative of what I can do at a specific point in my musical journey. I also do like to hear how others have progressed.

I know some folks will go back and listen to my earlier recordings - I just hope they listen to newer ones too so they can see I'm improving.


Let's not get carried away here - no one is saying that people aren't welcome - what is under discussion is the concept of changing the goals and format of the recital.

And we all know how little ABFers like change smile

Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the recording I submitted which is separated from my playing ability at this moment in time. This is the music I'm making right now, with my fingers, on my piano.


For me, this says it all. This is exactly how I feel about my participation in the e-citals. I wouldn't submit something that I wouldn't be able to play. I submit pieces that I've studied for weeks or months. If they're very recent, I know it will be hard to get a clean recording in one take, recital-style, because to make something even vaguely performance-ready I have to play it through hundreds of time, and it has to be something below my (already super low) level. If it's at my level (grade 2 maybe?), then I know that recording it will be super hard. If I know that whatever happens, I can still make some little edits and get a decent picture of where I am at the moment, everything gets easier and I may even just concentrate on making music and end up playing better.

And to those who say, why do worry about what other people think, just play, you're totally missing the point. It's not that that makes us nervous people nervous. It's our own judgement, or maybe it's just something chemical that goes on inside us. Some people are shy and tense and nervous, get over it.

Whatever. I will keep participating because it helps my progress, and also because even if I'm the nervous type, I like to share. I just wish somebody would criticise my piece, so it would be even more helpful. That's all.
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by sinophilia
I just wish somebody would criticise my piece, so it would be even more helpful. That's all.


Just what on earth was your piece thinking it was doing--pairing red wine with fish like that?! And for a business dinner, too!
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:40 PM

I believe I said, Shiro Kuro, that the disclosure works for me. I *do* prefer no editing *inside the piece* - I don't have a problem at all with Diana and Sam. I do think that those submissions that are more about the production, and alter the pieces in order to have a more, for lack of better words, spectacular production ought to be somewhere else. And I do think that those pieces that have altered notes as I suspect some people do, or splice in a better take on parts of it than what was played at one sitting belong somewhere else. Not that I'd know, most likely.

For me, your issue is a gray enough area that the disclosure works for me. But I *do* think differently of it than I think of those who have left in all the warts.

C'est la vie, eh.

Cathy
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:40 PM

Whizbang - laugh

Cathy
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 05:50 PM

Diana - I *do* know what it's like to be, as I said earlier, excruciatingly embarrassed by my public playing. I wasn't kidding when I said that sometimes I hide and think my head might explode. Or maybe all of me will. It's not just shy people that go thru that. I often do more than one take for my recording, and submit that's least embarrassing - and that is absolutely true, too, that sometimes I'm embarrassed by what I've done. Sometimes that feeling lasts longer than a couple of hours. I fight things that perhaps you don't know about, just not particularly shyness. I love your pieces, and I love hearing what you're doing next. Warts and all.

Cathy
Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:30 PM

I'm not a veteran of the quarterly recitals, this one will be the second, when I'll submit something.
I do not edit except for the dead air before and after the piece, because I don't think people want to listen to me as I walk to the piano, sit on the bench, put on my headphones if on DP and try to concentrate on playing at my best. Last time I normalized the sound because I've read it was necessary (level was very low).
That's it. I'm not able to do anything else and I'm not interested in learning - life is short, better to practice more!
Also, I don't mind much what others do, even if I prefer unplugged performances or, at least, a full disclosure.

But also to record a piece several times in order to get a decent take is sort of cheating, because in a real recital you only have one possibility. I think this is accepted because of the different situation, right?
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:33 PM

I'm swallowing my pride and redoing the piece. One session . that's it .

.................................................

Although there is a monthly piano bar, I would like to propose a quarterly ", unplugged no bars your own piano piece " quarterly recital , and submit members would agree to review if you submitted a piece, so everyone gets feedback unless you didn't want it . This would include vids or soundfiles and be informal, except for the submit call and deadline.

..................
One other thing and this is BIG,
It is offensive (in any context) that one would question the integrity of a submission or the person submitting especially in a beginner's forum, when so many have never been to a piano recital and the rule wasn't stated specifically in the first place.
Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
I'm swallowing my pride and redoing the piece. One session . that's it

It's not necessary, really!! smile
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:47 PM

@piano primo, Don't worry. Your integrity is not questioned or should not be questioned. Otherwise you wouldn't be discussing your submission here. You have been honest from the beginning.
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:49 PM

Double post as in the AOTW thread but maybe it's better to post here:
I created another recording:
https://soundcloud.com/wim-piano/telemann-fantasie-in-e-minor
It's closer to the tempo it should be but it's more machine like and you can hear that I'm playing as fast as I can which doesn't make it any better.

This was the original recording:
https://soundcloud.com/wim-piano/telemann-fantasia-in-e-minor-tres-vite-or-is-it-trop-lent

Which one should I use for the recital? (I already uploaded one but I can still change it if I'm not mistaken).
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 06:57 PM

Casinitaly said:
Quote
I truly don't see vitriol going on here


Maybe not, but being on the receiving end of being accused of misrepresenting yourself and cheating is not pleasant.

Cathy, I'm not interested in picking a fight with you, or anybody here. I'll take your most recent comment at face value, although it's kind of hard to accept that a recording made in two different sessions is somehow more acceptable than one that was made in one session but has a tiny part cut out.

The question raised of why people want to edit, I think, is a separate one, or at least probably shouldn't be done in the middle of a discussion about what's acceptable in the quarterly recitals in general and in this recital in particular.

Torquenale said:
Quote
But also to record a piece several times in order to get a decent take is sort of cheating, because in a real recital you only have one possibility. I think this is accepted because of the different situation, right?


And IMO, this, right here, is where everything originates. The quarterly recitals are a "different situation." They are e-citals which are not live performances that everyone listens to in real time. The practice of doing numerous takes and submitting the best one is, as far as I can tell, incredibly common and pretty much taken for granted. And, I would add, pedagogically speaking, one of the ways participants benefit most because the very act of recording, listening, and recording again, is an incredible resource for learning.

But most people don't seem to expect everyone to record their recital piece only once and submit the first and last recording they made (which, BTW, would be un-enforceable). Even Cathy doesn't have a problem with this and she herself takes advantage of the possibility made possible by the e-cital format to present the best recording out of numerous takes.

A little editing, or splicing together separately recording sections, is just another way of taking advantage of the characteristics of an e-tical. It's clear that most people want disclosure, I'm fine with that. And some people don't want to do any editing of any kind, I'm fine with that too.

But can we please stop labeling these various ways of preparing a recital submission as cheating? Really, it's hurtful.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by wimpiano
@piano primo, You have been honest from the beginning.

This is what I mean, I'm sure others would feel offended.
Because so have they .......
I guess it's what your experience is in the "recital land" of piano .....
I don't know..........
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:02 PM

I have never called it cheating. In fact, in one of my posts I specifically said it was a personal/personality preference. I'm fine with disclosure. The way you see things and the way *I* prefer them are different. The disclosure addresses that for me. But I haven't called it cheating.

Cathy
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:09 PM

I never not warm up before a live gig. The pieces I play here are generally fairly new, if not brand new or not yet in laugh , my live repertoire. They aren't pieces I'd play cold at a live gig.

Again, what *I* prefer, and what others prefer are different. The disclosure covers that for me.

Cathy

Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:13 PM

@PianoPrimo, I never intended to say anybody else was dishonest.
BTW. this is the first time I intend to take part in a recital. I am sure everybody takes part with the best intentions so I don't think anybody should feel bad.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:17 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you used that word Cathy.

But others have, including Mr S-H. And the use of the word "cheating" by Torquenale I take to be not so much his/her view, but sort of that's the fall-back way of describing it, and I think it's really not fair.

Anyway I will be adding the disclosure comment to my recital submission comments before the recital goes live. For now I need to get offline, this thread is not having a positive impact on my dissertation writing this weekend.

But it certainly drives home how important these issues are, for all of us. So I'm sorry if I get a little emotional, but ABF and the quarterlies are very dear to my heart.

It's so ironic, I hadn't participated in a recital for awhile (because, grad school) and I submitted last time and made the commitment to bring recording back as part of my habitual practice, especially for the purpose of getting back into being a regular recital participant. So when people start saying it's not appropriate for me to submit my piece, well, it's hard not to take that personally.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 07:19 PM

ok, this was interesting and a "could be" experiment in psychology for a student of that discipline... :.)
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 08:00 PM

All very interesting; Come to think of it, my recital offering is in two seperately recorded bits.. . . decent bite size convenient chunks. But felt no inclination to mention this (shrug with hands in pocket) I`m not bothered; should anybody else be?
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 08:57 PM

Only you can answer that , your thoughts ?.
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by peterws
I`m not bothered; should anybody else be?


Well, I'd like to say no, but the contents of this thread suggest otherwise...

Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 09:29 PM



[quote=ShiroKuro] Mr S-H, you know you basically just accused me of misrepresenting myself and cheating, right? I'll try to assume that's not as mean-spirited as it sounds.



ShiroKuro, I want you to know that I have the utmost respect for you, and always will. Unfortunately, it seems you have taken a comment that I have said and applied it to yourself personally. I'm sorry that we have this miscommunication and I'd like to explain to you (and others) what I mean hopefully on a clearer level so we don't have this miscommunication.

First off, when I refer to 'editing' a piece, what I'm really talking about is the concept of misrepresenting your abilities to others. 'Misrepresenting' your abilities to others IS a form of cheating since you are factually deceiving the other person to believe or take your word for something that is not really there or true.

'Editing' mistakes of incorrect notes / missed notes by digitally replacing them with the correct ones IS cheating if you are trying to pass that piece off as an unedited performance.

'Splicing' numerous separately recorded sections together and submitting it as a one pass take is also not representing yourself accurately.

'Editing' out the long blank several seconds of nothing that sometimes comes before the performance or after it is not, I repeat 'NOT' misrepresenting yourself, or your abilities because you haven't altered anything regarding your playing abilities or even how your playing abilities sound. The only thing you did is 'edit out' some of the blank time that nobody wants to waste theirs on.

I want to make this clear....this is NOT 'cheating'. You did NOT misrepresent your abilities to anyone by doing this.

Had you digitally replaced wrong notes after the fact with correct ones and represented that performance as your true abilities,...well then that would be dishonest. Likewise if you were recording difficult sections of a piece in separate sections and then overlaying them and then representing the finished product as your true current ability.

ShiroKuro, you are NOT a cheater because you are not misrepresenting your abilities. Please don't take those comments personally because they were not directed towards you. Really, they weren't because you didn't misrepresent your playing abilities.


But just to be clear...The cheaters ARE the ones who 'misrepresent' themselves and their abilities however they go about doing it.. You can replace wrong notes with correct ones after the fact, you can overlay complicated sections broken down into a few simpler ones and multi-track 'em all together. You can even submit an authentic original Chopin performance and claim it to be your own playing...[YES, that's happened before!].

I'd like for everyone to simply represent themselves honestly and accurately and to NOT misrepresent themselves and their abilities to others.

[quote=ShiroKuro]

Beyond that, you contradict yourself in your post. The ABF recital can't be a "non-stuffy" event with no steadfast rules, and still adhere 100% to your stipulations that no recording be altered in any way.

Please allow me to break down your comment into your two points.

1.) The ABF is not stuffy
2.) The adherence of a 'no altering' rule.

To respond to your comments, I will say that I truly believe the ABF is the most non-stuffy/casually friendly internet forum I have ever been a part of. [point (1.)] And to respond to point (2.), Anyone can EASILY submit a NON-ALTERED performance at any time. I'd guess most people do so why can't we be 'non-stuffy' group and an 'honest' group at the same time? The fact is....YOU CAN! Some may choose not too for whatever reasons drive them, but being a friendly and honest group that doesn't misrepresent their abilities towards others is certainly possible.

Realistic...hmm, I'm not sure, but it is at least possible.

Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky

ShiroKuro, I want you to know that I have the utmost respect for you, and always will. Unfortunately, it seems you have taken a comment that I have said and applied it to yourself personally. I'm sorry that we have this miscommunication and I'd like to explain to you (and others) what I mean hopefully on a clearer level so we don't have this miscommunication.

Mr S-H, that is a very kind thing to say. Thank you. The respect is definitely mutual. There are some details we don't agree on on this subject, but I want to keep the above in mind because that helps us all keep the discussion civil, and productive.

I think your comments about different kinds of editing suggest a helpful way to talk about things. (And I don't think we need to talk about what happens before and after the actual performance of the piece. No one has a problem with editing out dead air or the person moving back and forth between piano and recorder).

Following your comments, and from the most basic description, there are three kinds of editing:
1) editing something out of the recording
2) splicing two or more recordings together
3) editing something into the recording.

So, I am afraid you seem to have misunderstood me (or I you) regarding the editing I did.

What I did falls into number 1, because in one place (*after* I started to play, not before the beginning or after the end of the music), I edited out a pause *within* the music. I said earlier (somewhere in the bowels of this thread) that basically, what I did is the same as editing out wrong notes, because the pause was a mistake. Although I think it's quite different from editing something into the recording, what I did is still editing something out of the recording.

But, that distinction doesn't matter, because your stance (Mr S-H) is that any of the three kinds of edits I described above are unacceptable.

You and I, and several other posters, are not going to be able to agree on this, because I don't think a minor edit is a problem (especially if there's only one in the whole piece). In thinking about it since yesterday (or whenever this whole thing started!) I have come to think that one edit in a piece, where something is edited out, is not a big deal, and splicing together two separately recorded sections, is also not a big deal. Personally, I don't like the idea of adding in notes or passages, and most of the stuff you described I have no idea how to do. So I guess I feel like it's a question of degree, whereas for you (and a few others in this thread) no editing of any kind is acceptable.


Quote
You can even submit an authentic original Chopin performance and claim it to be your own playing...[YES, that's happened before!].

Actually, that happened while I was the moderator here, and it was after dealing with that issue that I stepped down from being moderator because the whole thing was exhausting. The irony is not lost on me.

Anyway, I continue to believe that the minor edit I have made is not a misrepresentation, and certainly is nothing along the lines of the Chopin incident.

Quote
2.) The adherence of a 'no altering' rule.


Since when have we had this rule? I gather from this thread that I'm not the only one who has done some kind of editing. Others (including Peterws IIRC) have described splicing two recordings together and not even imagining that that was a problem.

So the fact remains (which, I'm afraid, you misunderstood when you wrote this post today) that my recital submission has an edited spot in it. And I'm not the only one, I'm probably not the first, and I doubt I'll be the last. And as several people have noted, enforcing a "no alteration" rule is near impossible.

I'm very happy to mention in my recital notes that there's an edited spot in my recording. But again, I don't think it's fair to call that a misrepresentation or cheating.

(And in case you missed it, I didn't save the unedited version, so the version I uploaded is my only version).
Posted By: Piano*Dad

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 10:23 PM

Gawd, what a thread.

I can't remember if it was a quarterly recital, but it probably was … many years ago in a galaxy far far away. I think I was playing Debussy's Arabesque no. 1, or maybe a Chopin Waltz. It's funny that I can't actually remember which piece. It's a piece that has a short pause and then a fundamental change in direction. I remember starting the second section with an error. I rerecorded from the beginning of the second section and neatly spliced the two together.

1. I told everybody about a splicing and teasingly challenged the group to guess where in the piece it was done.

2. The "perfected" rendition was no more, or less, ME than the one with an error. It was my playing, just a minute later, at my hardly perfect level of ability. No one would confuse it with a "pro" and plenty of other blemishes littered the recording.

A thread like this didn't ensue. No one talked about cheating, and we heard no dire warnings of slippery slopes into abstract arms races to perfection. A number of people easily identified the splice, and people (at that time) actually said that they didn't care that I had done it. I guess that feelings have changed.

Look, I don't think the arms race forecasts are a serious worry. Most sensible amateur and beginner pianists simply don't have that kind of time to waste. We're too busy with the rest of life.

In truth, for me the video format has simplified things. It is what it is, and my only way of making a better version is to do the silly piece again.
Posted By: PianoStudent88

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 10:39 PM

I disagree that a spliced recording shows the exact same abilities as an unspliced recording.

For me, splicing together sections of a piece does give a different impression of one's abilities than recording the whole piece in one take. Consider a player who plays all 12 movements of Mozart's "Ah Vous Dirai-Je Maman" in one go. Compare that to a player who plays each movement separately, with stoppages in between, because the player can't play all 12 movements consecutively at a level that they are satisfied with. For me, the former player has the ability not only to play each movement, but also the ability to do so at a sustained and consistent level.

I understand that red dot fever may make one's accomplishments while recording much lower than normal -- for example, a player might regularly toss off all 12 movements without stopping, right up until the minute the red dot goes on. So I'm taking no stand on whether people should or should not splice together sections of a piece, or whether they should or should not say that they've done so on their notes. But I don't think that, just because a player has played all the notes on their spliced recording, that it's exactly the same as if they had played all the notes in a row and hadn't spliced.
Posted By: Piano*Dad

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 10:51 PM

You seem to presume that someone couldn't get it right "in one take" if they did it thirty more times. Well, as "right" as they cared to.

I'm sure I could have gotten it just right, to the best of my meager abilities, if I had simply done it again and again until voila, it just came out without the particular blemishes that annoyed me. I'm good enough to do that, though probably not in a piece as difficult or lengthy as the one you mentioned.

But in a sense, continual rerecording is "cheating" too. In fact, it may be worse -- in the sense of producing an unrepresentative version of your work -- than a simple splicing in the name of saving a bit of time. If you truly want "live" recording of the moment, prohibit rerecording. I'd love to see enforcement of that!
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
But in a sense, continual rerecording is "cheating" too. In fact, it may be worse -- in the sense of producing an unrepresentative version of your work -- than a simple splicing in the name of saving a bit of time. If you truly want "live" recording of the moment, prohibit rerecording. I'd love to see enforcement of that!


Here is exactly why I dislike calling any editing cheating. If I play a piece very well (my current recital piece is a piece I've been playing for a year), but 50% of the time I play it with an unpleasant pause, and 50% of the time I play it without the pause, which is the more representative version of my playing? Or what if I play it 80% of the time without that pause, but the time I'm recording falls into that 20%? Or the reverse?

Ultimately, editing out that pause is hardly different from recording it 100 more times. (Well, except in one of those scenarios, I'm in trouble with my neighbors).

The Mozart Twinkle variations are another good example. (And also, an example of a piece of music in which it would be close to impossible to identify whether it was spliced together or not). Maybe the person plays it all the way through all the time, very nicely. But for whatever reason they recorded it separately and spliced? Or maybe they can't play it all the way through in one sitting but made it look that way in their recording. We can't know what is a true representation of their performance. Why not take them on their word?

I don't see the group coming to a consensus on this question, and I'm fine with including an explanation of my edit in the recital notes. It would be nice if we could leave it at that and agree to disagree. (overly optimistic, I know).
Posted By: BB Player

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:35 PM

Certainly an interesting thread. Although my participation in the recitals has been infrequent, I won't let that stop me from wading in with a few thoughts:
  1. Any discussion that causes S-K to feel like she's "cheated" is off the mark in my opinion. I know her to be a person of the highest possible integrity in addition to being a fine amateur pianist.
  2. The notion that an "audit committee" would review submissions for edits or splices is nonsensical - who has that kind of time?
  3. The purpose of the recitals IMHO is to be as inclusive as possible. As long as the recording you submit is of your playing, it's all good. I don't care if you've recorded it in one take or a thousand, as long as it's you tickling the ivories I'll listen and enjoy.
  4. There are certainly "shades of gray" with respect to edits that starts with editing out pauses to splicing in notes or sections. For myself, I doubt I'd ever want to take the time to do the latter - if for no other reason because people would say "you even did it in pieces and you still played it so badly?" but if someone else does it that way, it's cool with me.
  5. If you feel like you need to "out" yourself by revealing any edits you've made feel free but it shouldn't be required and, as noted elsewhere, is certainly unenforceable.

Let's sit back and enjoy the music.
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:39 PM

[quote=Piano*Dad]

But in a sense, continual rerecording is "cheating" too. In fact, it may be worse -- in the sense of producing an unrepresentative version of your work -- than a simple splicing in the name of saving a bit of time. If you truly want "live" recording of the moment, prohibit rerecording. I'd love to see enforcement of that!

Piano*Dad, even though I'm on the side of posting an accurate representation of your current abilities, your point has a lot of validity.

When you listen to my recital submission, you are listening to the best unedited version I can come up with. But an even more accurate representation would be if I just sat down once [like in an actual live recital setting], and recorded and submitted the first take. I would agree, that would be a much more accurate representation than listening to my 17th take. Your right.

[quote=Piano*Dad] You seem to presume that someone couldn't get it right "in one take" if they did it thirty more times. Well, as "right" as they cared to.

I'm sure I could have gotten it just right, to the best of my meager abilities, if I had simply done it again and again until voila, it just came out without the particular blemishes that annoyed me. I'm good enough to do that, though probably not in a piece as difficult or lengthy as the one you mentioned.


But at the same time, you can't discount actually completing an entire piece in one setting as opposed to splicing together several sections. Saying you could do it as opposed to actually doing it is literally discounting the person who actually does do it. I can run a 10k. I can, but the fact is that it is so much easier to just say that I can then actually doing it.

I say if you have the ability to do the task you are claiming you can and want to receive the credit/recognition for it...then honor that statement and do it honestly and without misrepresenting your abilities.

Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:41 PM

Geesh..... I can't believe you people are dragging this out?!
I feel sorry for MrSH. He has to say something. What it comes down to is he and others don't want deception in the recitals. That's all!

I'm going back to the 18 hours of recorded static...
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:44 PM

Greg, thank you for your very kind words about me. And thank you for your very reasonable approach about how to resolve this. I hope those who feel very strongly about this situation can be comfortable with those suggestions.

I'm going to stop arguing now, especially with Mr S-H and Cathy. I like you both a lot and I feel like I've known you both for a long time, and I don't want to ruin those nice feelings.

After all this, I have to say I'm starting to panic that I'm making this big fuss about my recording when it really probably just sounds like c*ap. whome

I'm looking forward to hearing every one else's submissions, and I will be truly grateful to anyone who listens to mine and just takes it as it is.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/11/14 11:45 PM

@wimpiano, the original or second link is superior. While it is not to tempo and has pauses and mistakes the phrasing is very good and musically much better as well. The faster version is quite terrible right now only because you need a bit more time under your hands. You should keep playing it slowly until you reach a faster tempo gradually maintaing those great expressions. I especially like the use of color in the slow version. Keep up the good effort!
Posted By: Piano*Dad

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:01 AM

And then words like "misrepresenting" and "deception" get tossed around. This is why some people (like Shiro) feel assaulted in this thread.


Mr. S-H,

I get the point about one sitting, just like you get the point about rerecording. This is why the issue is difficult to contain in simple rules. In the end, people will just have to accept that a recording represents a person's abilities, or it does not. After all, we're not talking about the kind of studio alteration the pros use to get things just perfect for the CD-buying public. That involves manipulating the very pitch of a note, or replacing single notes with computer simulations to make a recording letter perfect.

BTW, as a veteran of many 5K and 10K races, I'm not sure about that analogy. Playing a five minute piece is a race against probability (of an error) more than of cardio-endurance (well, at least for most of us smile ). That's why redoing a piece many times works in a player's favor, whatever their current level of ability. With some luck, you can get a nearly clean recording that sounds completely different than the average one. Running a race is one of those truly live events, done in "real" time. The only rerecording possible is to run another 5K (and hopefully get a little faster!).
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro


I'm going to stop arguing now, especially with Mr S-H and Cathy. I like you both a lot and I feel like I've known you both for a long time, and I don't want to ruin those nice feelings.




ShiroKuro, nobody is 'arguing' with you or anyone. We are having a discussion in which I'd bet we have more similar viewpoints on than differences. I'd go as far to say that we would probably both agree when someone was representing themselves accurately and when they are not. So there is no argument, and probably not even a disagreement. For the most part, we are on the same page.

Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Gawd, what a thread.
(...)
The "perfected" rendition was no more, or less, ME than the one with an error. It was my playing, just a minute later, at my hardly perfect level of ability. No one would confuse it with a "pro" and plenty of other blemishes littered the recording.


You're just as bad as this guy:

http://youtu.be/U87jVeLrFgA
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
And then words like "misrepresenting" and "deception" get tossed around. This is why some people (like Shiro) feel assaulted in this thread.



I'm the one who used the word "misrepresentation" and I mean it exactly the way and in the context as I described it when I used the word. I'll even say it again...

If you are replacing your mistakes with digitally corrected notes after the fact and representing that sound-shopped submission as an original performance, then in my opinion, you are 'misrepresenting' your true abilities. I will stand by that statement because I mean it.

It represents my viewpoint on an issue. Nowhere will you see any personal attacks because there are none, nor any meant towards anyone personally. This is not about any one person but rather about a simple concept.


Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by rnaple
Geesh..... I can't believe you people are dragging this out?!


It is a healthy discussion that is all....there are a few topics which seem to resurface every now and again, this is obviously one of them.

My own opinion: this is an Adult Beginners Forum (says so on the box). Everyone should present their work as they feel fit but personally I would want to know if a submission had been edited. Not to single out the performer as someone who is bending rules but to let us beginners know it has been done so we could fret less over the seemingly impossible high standard of the recital.

My second thought is we are such a determined bunch. We practice alone, in a confined space, nearly everyday for several hours, year on end in search of what.....perfection? If indeed it is even close to being tangible, I would think this is the one place where perfection is possibly not welcome. Or is it just me, for I want to hear mistakes, pauses and other crimes against music, not to make me feel better about myself but to know you guys are human and fallible.

I look forward to hearing eveyones' submission this recital I am sure it will be as wonderful as ever. but please no bearded drag queens, I am still trying to get over this years Euorivision Song Contest.
Posted By: Piano*Dad

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Gawd, what a thread.
(...)
The "perfected" rendition was no more, or less, ME than the one with an error. It was my playing, just a minute later, at my hardly perfect level of ability. No one would confuse it with a "pro" and plenty of other blemishes littered the recording.


You're just as bad as this guy:

http://youtu.be/U87jVeLrFgA


grin

Yeah, I'd love to be as bad as "that" fellow! Alas, anyone who hears my playing would know better, no matter how many times I rerecord a piece.

Look, I'm not suggesting that we all run out and buy the best editing software and begin tinkering with our recordings note by note, turning them into digitally enhanced soundscapes divorced from the actual recording. In fact, no one has suggested that this kind of "deception" is desirable, and I think it's hyperventilated nonsense to think that we're on the verge of some slippery slope to Hades at ABF.

Maybe we ought to include a little box by each recording. To submit your recording to a recital you have to write in the box the number of takes you made before you were satisfied. Without that, you're just being deceptive about your real abilities.

Then again, maybe things are fine as they are. Someone who does a tiny bit of editing can tell everyone exactly what they did, or playfully tease them about finding it. Friends do that occasionally. Others name call.


Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
ShiroKuro, nobody is 'arguing' with you or anyone. We are having a discussion in which I'd bet we have more similar viewpoints on than differences. I'd go as far to say that we would probably both agree when someone was representing themselves accurately and when they are not. So there is no argument, and probably not even a disagreement. For the most part, we are on the same page.


Yeah, I guess you're right. I just meant that at this point, I am not going to try to zoom in on the details where we don't agree. And I'm much happier focusing on being on the same page.

You know what's really funny? The title of my recital piece:
Big My Secret
whome
Posted By: PianoStudent88

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You seem to presume that someone couldn't get it right "in one take" if they did it thirty more times. Well, as "right" as they cared to.


No, I wasn't thinking about the possibility of thirty retakes. I had in mind two players taking a modest number of takes. All the issues in recording are so multivalent that I don't think there's one statement that can cover everything.

I don't know what I think about large numbers of retakes; I've never questioned it before but maybe this is a big inconsistency in my thinking. Certainly points could be made about a variety of situations, each of which might call forth a different response.

The situation I was thinking of was someone who can't play the whole thing in one go ever, vs. someone who can play the whole thing in one go almost all the time. If someone says the spliced version fairly represents their abilities as if they had played it all at once, and also indicates that they did it in a splice because it's too long for them to play all at one time, then that seems odd to me. (That's not what you said; it was another comment that got me thinking about this.)
Posted By: outo

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 05:00 AM

I personally decided to submit a take with mistakes rather than keep trying until I get one without. That's mainly because I don't have much time in my hands before the deadline and I won't be home this week early enough to play the acoustic because of the neighbours. I also know that I am a hopeless perfectionists and I would just keep on finding things not good enough. On one sitting the first take is usually the best musically, after that I get either slightly bored or obsessed with details. Listening through other takes and then trying to make an edit without those mistakes would be too much work even if I wanted to do it.

I think submitting something that I am not pleased with might actually be a good step in my fight against perfectionism smile

But still...I don't mind at all if someone does a bit of editing. Not correcting or adding notes digitally, but cutting and patching up sections played by oneself. Almost all professional recordings we hear today are heavily edited. Those recordings unfortunately have set the standard of playing, even for us amateurs. One cannot really compare a recording with live performance. A wrong note played live will disappear in the air. A recording on the other hand can be listened to endlessly and the mistakes will pop out more every time you hear them, eventually ruining the listening pleasure. Maybe not for others as much as the player. I'd say non-professional recordings are usually edited for this reason more than to appear better than one is.

But in this context it would be right to be open about the editing process so that those who do submit non-edited recordings don't need to feel inferior in any way. An unedited recording will show one's ability to play under pressure, while a slightly edited recording can show what one is capable at best.
Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Whizbang

Just what on earth was your piece thinking it was doing--pairing red wine with fish like that?! And for a business dinner, too!


Thanks, that was exactly what I had in mind! grin

(and yes, I meant criticise, critique is for better players!)
Posted By: sinophilia

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
You know what's really funny? The title of my recital piece:
Big My Secret
whome


Wow! Like like like!
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by sinophilia
(and yes, I meant criticise, critique is for better players!)


I had to look that up and reading all the explanations of criticism vs critique on the web I started getting a headache.
http://chroniclesofharriet.com/2012/03/06/a-critic-critiques-criticism-critically/
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 07:17 AM

Well I resubmitted a 1 session take of 4:37 . I'm moving onto "Swiss Air by F. H. Himmel.
Even if it the submission isn't noteworthy , it was performed by me.
Posted By: noobpianist90

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 08:12 AM

I resubmitted as well, including a video this time. It's still not as good as I'd like it to be, but its closer.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 08:34 AM

same here, I didn't know you could do a video in mp3.
Posted By: noobpianist90

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
same here, I didn't know you could do a video in mp3.
Lol no you can't. I record audio and video separately for uploading, so I submitted the audio for the recital and gave the video location in the optional details.
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:11 AM

@8Octaves Thanks!!
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:39 AM

I realize that this thread is still very active... I understand the questions but I'm more interested in the recital itself. I have heard many pieces since I joined PW, and I can already perceive the style and evolution of many pianists. And that's what interests me.

As you know I also participate in recitals. Of the many comments I've received, I remember this one:
"I liked the odd meter changes you slipped in, they sounded perfectly natural in the flow of the music." .

I look forward to hearing all the pieces.
Posted By: WimPiano

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by CarlosCC
I look forward to hearing all the pieces.

Me too. I've listened to a couple of past recitals this weekend and enjoyed it very much.

I also realize that some of the posts in this thread are the byproduct of the tension that the making and posting of a recording brings.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by noobpianist90
Originally Posted by piano_primo_1
same here, I didn't know you could do a video in mp3.
Lol no you can't. I record audio and video separately for uploading, so I submitted the audio for the recital and gave the video location in the optional details.

Yeah way cool, that's a good idea, I recorded with windows movie maker both a/v at the same time and converted to mp3 with oexalon , but I am going to upload the video and do the link too. Thanks for idea.[b][/b]
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:49 AM

Sinophilia, I'm glad someone else thought that was funny! smile
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sand Tiger

... What is this really about? Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it.

I've been following along with this thread as well. But, have not come anywhere close to the same conclusion.

The ABF welcomes everyone. The advanced players that are here, are here as they feel they belong here (they do) and often offer their expertise freely for anyone that wants it. This editing discussion pertains to everyone.

The flawless performances could also be a result of a lot of hard work ...

I think we should apply caution about over thinking this and possibly reading too much into it. Even though a serious topic with strong opinions on both sides, it is still a minor issue that has and is not detracting from the brilliance of the ABF recital.

Originally Posted by wouter79

I just thought it important, to me, your long list of "acceptable edits" and "unacceptable edits" for me exactly seem to comprise a set of "rules" that I'm so glad we don't have so far.

Agreed. Guidelines may have been a better word choice. Even so, not sure if needed at all. But it did a reasonable job of stirring the pot ... laugh .
Originally Posted by wouter79

Beginners here well may take your list as the de-facto consensus on this. This is a major reason why I was placing the opposite standpoint.

That's fine if it will help balance the equation. I'd prefer to give them more credit, as I do not feel they -- beginners -- are any less capable of understanding the issue and making their own choices.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by wimpiano
@8Octaves Thanks!!


You're welcome. Good to listen to that RCM Level 4 piece again. I had lots of fun learning that piece as well. Sounds to me you're very close to putting it away.
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 03:09 PM

Yes it did a good job stirring smile

And yes, adult beginners are capable. Therefore I don't think we need to give them a set of rules smile
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 03:22 PM

Hmmm.... looks like I missed out on some controversy while at my daughter's academic team tournament. (Brag alert: Her team won!)

This issue has come up several times over the course of the recital, always with the same strong feelings expressed. As best as I can recall, we always end up with the same conclusions:

1.) The recitals are meant to be a fun, supportive place for people to share where they are on their piano journeys.

2.) Being judgmental doesn't help accomplish the first point.

3.) Some people submit recordings of a single take, just like a real recital. (My hat's off to them! I could never do that.) Others submit recordings of their 1,645th take. (More like me.) Still others perform minor editing of their pieces, e.g., editing out page changes, editing out a major blooper. A few may perform more major edits, e.g., splicing together two parts of different takes.

4.) Any of those options is okay as long as you declare exactly what kind of edits you made in the "comments" section of the recital. That way people know what was done to achieve the performance you submitted and can adjust their impressions accordingly, if it matters to them. As far as I'm concerned, I just want to hear the take you feel comfortable with. If that includes a bit of editing, it's okay by me.

5.) The only hard and fast rule is that the recording you submit must be of your own playing.

Remember, the purpose of the recital is for people to share their music. heart Hard feelings have no place here.

As always, I include this disclaimer: jmho.
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 03:27 PM

On a cheerier note, most of y'all are moving up in the queue. I finally got a better take done this morning. smile
Posted By: peterws

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 05:50 PM

Just out of interest, are you lot getting any practice done? If not, you may have to edit . . . . . smile

Now, if there are serious issues concerning those with many years experience being on this site let me make it clear imo - there are many who are inexperienced who are already overtaking some of us old lags . . . good luck to ya, and well done! I know for myself, I aint going to improve much. I just do it for fun, and indeed, there have been improvements as a result of me being here taking part in recitals etc. which I`m very glad about.

Any more themed recitals coming up? Any ideas we might chew over?
Posted By: Opus45

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sand Tiger
...Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh...


Man I had the exact opposite experience the first time I heard the recital performances. I was INSPIRED and ENCOURAGED!

If there's something most of us here have in common is the knowledge of how hard it is to learn to play the piano as an ADULT BEGINNER. Probably as difficult as it would be to learn a new language.

How sad it would be if after 10+ years of efforts we could only hope to achieve level one or two proficiency, and even sadder if they kicked you out of here once you did advance.
Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:38 PM

Ganddalf, looks like you typoed your name in your submission.
Posted By: ajames

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Opus45
Originally Posted by Sand Tiger
...Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh...


Man I had the exact opposite experience the first time I heard the recital performances. I was INSPIRED and ENCOURAGED!

If there's something most of us here have in common is the knowledge of how hard it is to learn to play the piano as an ADULT BEGINNER. Probably as difficult as it would be to learn a new language.

How sad it would be if after 10+ years of efforts we could only hope to achieve level one or two proficiency, and even sadder if they kicked you out of here once you did advance.


+1 thumb Please don't kick me out if I get better at piano. Pianist Corner- they're *mean* over there..... eek
Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 06:57 PM

Tomorrow afternoon the technician is coming and my piano will be tuned; I hope I'll have some time on Wednesday afternoon to try and record my piece on the acoustic, then I can submit it in the evening - being in Europe I have half of the night smile.
Otherwise I'll submit the recording made on the DP.
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 07:26 PM

After not sleeping a wink last night thinking about this topic, I came to a clear revelation/realization.

What is going on here is the 'co-mingling' of two separate topics that are unavoidably getting smooshed together into one. And the result is a bit messy. I'd like the opportunity to separate these two topics and then comment on them individually. It's going to be a bit lengthy, but what else do you have going on right now?

First Topic: (of two SEPARATE topics.)

The first topic of discussion was to define what the original purpose of the quarterly recitals was. The person who came up with the original concept clearly answered that question. He said..."The purpose of the ABF Quarterly Recitals is to provide a 'snapshot' of our current playing abilities over time in which we can measure our progress. Since that was the original purpose (which was clearly stated nearly a decade ago) then that purpose can never just magically change. It was the ORIGINAL purpose.

Second Topic: (which is getting mixed in with the first)

The second topic being tossed around (which has nothing to do with the first topic) is the discussion regarding 'editing' your performance after the fact. People are saying how most, if not all major musicians performances are 'studio produced' for the best attainable everlasting sound and how it shouldn't matter if we fix a few flubs here and there as well. Why?, because we don't want those flubs in our everlasting recordings either. That's obvious.

I can completely understand the logic behind this and in many ways I agree with it. But that doesn't mean just take the original concept of the ABF recitals (which was the first topic) and start re-writing history by completely changing what it's original purpose and intention was.

The answer and solution is simple. It's the same as it has been the last few times this discussion came up. We almost HAVE to allow editing just to make the playing field fair to those who don't edit. But then again, if you really get it, it's the non-TMP (Technically Modified Performance) people who in my opinion still will always have the advantage.


My thoughts on the first topic.

The original purpose will always be the original purpose. It doesn't mean that the guidelines can't change, adapt, and even evolve as everything does over time. It can. but I first want to disclose the reasons for my conviction of staying true to the original intended purpose of these recitals.

When I started as an adult beginner, I started playing on a digital. I was quickly overwhelmed by the endless 'possibilities' of what you could do with a little technology under your fingers. Let's just say we've all seen the mall 'pianist' who can seemingly reproduce an entire orchestra with just a finger or two.

I was drawn to the simplicity and purity of just the opposite. Acoustic solo piano.

As a result of being in the right place at the right time when the technology was just becoming available, a group of ABF members actually carried out and implemented the original concept of these recitals and off we went on our piano journey.

The original concept got the blessing of Frank, the Pianoworld owner, and he even agreed to provide the space for the ABF quarterly recital storage that we were going to call the ABF "Time-capsule".

Fast forward a bit. The ABF "Time capsule" recital storage was a concept that nobody did anything about until Sam took it upon himself to create our current day ABF recital index. [A monumental task which this forum will be forever grateful].

The purpose of having recital storage, (the original purpose anyway) was so we could have a way to compare our progress over time. If all of a sudden everyone starts editing, cutting, splicing, overlaying, enhancing etc, .... the original intentions of these recitals will go completely out the window.

Unfortunately, these original intentions which were created nearly a decade ago may no longer be relevant and reflect the current technological capabilities in which many people have at their disposal. The original intentions may no longer even fully represent the overall will of the group. And if this is the case, then they should change.

But even if they do change, the original intentions will not.

My thoughts on the second topic

The second topic (which is being smooshed together with the first even though they are separate topics) is the topic of 'editing' your music.

'Editing', 'altering', 'enhancing' whatever, it's all the same. You are making slight to possibly dramatic changes to your original recordings. If you are representing these doctored recordings as 'UN-altered', original recordings that represent your true abilities then you are LITERALLY discounting the people who have spent the time and dedication it takes to ACTUALLY perform the piece WITHOUT all the technical surgery post performance. Honest and accurate disclosure should always accompany these creations if you feel you just must do it in a beginners forum.

Personally, it not only might be easier to just practice a piece a little more as opposed to taking the easy way out, but you probably will become a better piano player as a result of your additional efforts.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the core purpose of being on this site to begin with or am I missing something here?





Posted By: noobpianist90

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Personally, it not only might be easier to just practice a piece a little more as opposed to taking the easy way out, but you probably will become a better piano player as a result of your additional efforts.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the core purpose of being on this site to begin with or am I missing something here?
As a first time participant in the ABF recitals, I agree completely. Learning and improving while enjoying the process is my purpose for playing the piano and participating in this forum.

However, I do not blame those who wish to edit their music in the pursuit of a perfect recording (which of course, does not exist). In the end, if I find the music enjoyable, I have no complaints as to how it was made.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 08:46 PM

All this fuss made me go listen to the past recitals. As a newcomer I feel I haven't earn my right to be too vocal about guidelines, but here are some observations.

After listening to the past recitals while matching performance to participants on this thread, I find there are essentially two groups of people who may want to edit. First group are beginners very uncomfortable with mistakes and mishaps during performance because they are shy. Second group are advance players hanging out here because they find the Pianist Corner far too intimidating, and they play far more musically, and now mistakes and mishaps become a distraction to their musical intentions. We are victims of modern recordings and the genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

For the first group, we should allow editing with the encouragement that they should work on a goal of decreasing number of edits for recitals over time. The reason is that actually lift their performance higher even if it feels like their heads would explode.

For the second group, my own opinion is that they are worried about nothing. Edits may help put the cherry on their dessert but they play well regardless and without the edits, it would be musically inspiring. So the cherry makes a difference, which I can't dispute, but I maintain they are worrying over nothing. If they think by showing their mishaps that their recital now sounds like the beginner who edited out all their mistakes, that doesn't make any sense because the difference between this group and the beginners is so very very obvious.
Posted By: Opus45

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 08:58 PM

It has been years since I've hung around PW but my understanding of the basic difference between the Pianist forum and the ABF forum is not so much a matter of accomplishment but (and this is important I think) rather a matter of having to face challenges unique to everyone who did not have the opportunity or privilege to learn to play the piano as a child.
Posted By: timmyab

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 09:56 PM

I haven't had time to read all of this discussion so this may have already been suggested.
If this business of editing really upsets people a lot why not split the recital into two sections. One 'live' recital section with video only recordings and one 'non live' section for audio recordings. Or you could just have two separate recitals. Obviously the video recordings are not really live but they are a far more reliable gauge of how well people can play. People who edit (or who haven't got a video camera) can participate just as before but the ultimate goal for everybody would be to post in the video recital (kind of like the ABF premier league). The videos would have to clearly show the hands.
Posted By: Ataru074

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:01 PM

... Done! 1st take, 1st submission. Recording is stressful!
Posted By: jazzwee

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:18 PM

The reason I've often stated that I do a "One-Take" policy (like a live recital) is that I believe you guys care too much about what other people think and not about your own capabilities and your own goals.

Now, this is an important point in learning because the only way to perform freely in public is to get the ego out of the way. Ego is the biggest source of stress in playing. It is also why the red dot causes a lot of trouble for most. Self-consciousness. Kenny Werner wrote a whole book about this.

I've posted tons of flawed recordings especially early on in my participation. I've learned to not worry about it as long as my "NEXT" posting is better. And it WILL BE if you are practicing. That's my justification for not worrying about my failures. I will always have something better next time.

JMHO.

One other point. As a more experienced player now, when I listen to the recital performances, I'm not particularly concerned about hearing mistakes. I'm thinking more about the playing skills itself related to tone, dynamics, articulation, expressiveness, time, etc. Frankly, you could record yourself 500 times and it is unlikely my impression of your performance would change because the things I listen for are embedded in your subconscious and you do it without thinking. Typically the failures occur in newer skills and it cannot be rushed no matter what you do.

Because of this, I think the pressure to come up with 'perfect' performances is pointless in this setting. I presume it's intended to create a "better" impression from your peers. If it won't change the impression, then I'm not sure why one would bother.

I suppose the fear is that 10 years from now, these recordings would still exist here somewhere. The only way to fix that is keep posting newer recordings that are better and that means constant participation in these recitals.

Several years from now, you will hopefully look back at these performances and see how much you've improved. And all of these concerns about perfection will be immaterial.

Now having said that, my personal opinion is: edit if you want to edit but always know that a more experienced listener will hear you pretty much the same way.
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 10:44 PM

And just so we know that the ABF is not the only that has these discussions:

Clash of the Bird Watchers: It's eyeballs vs. gadgets. . .

Of course, the minute they said "competitive birdwatching" *I* was outta there laugh

Cathy
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:21 PM

Cathy, too funny! grin
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:25 PM

+1. Completely agree. That bar may be a bit high for a lot of people though.
Posted By: jazzwee

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
+1. Completely agree. That bar may be a bit high for a lot of people though.


I don't mean that everyone should do one-take. I just meant to "not care too much". One-take is just an indication that I mean it.

There's got to be some point where you say (a) It's close enough, or (b) I'll do something easier. For me it's one take. For someone else it could be 5.
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/12/14 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by peterws

Any more themed recitals coming up? Any ideas we might chew over?

We were moving towards 20th century, last I recall. Would Gershwin provide enough material choice?

Originally Posted by peterws

I don't mean that everyone should do one-take. I just meant to "not care too much". One-take is just an indication that I mean it.

Beautiful, I will try and come up with a seal.



Posted By: Whizbang

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Greener
Would Gershwin provide enough material choice?


He would, but, generally speaking, you'll run into copyright issues with his music--free arrangements may be difficult or impossible to find.

Gershwin is a good choice in that he's got offerings for:

* traditional jazz players (lead sheets, improv, ensemble, vocals)
* classical players (preludes, rhapsody in blue [hah!])
* ragtime and early jazz players (rialto ripples and other early gershwin)
* popular arrangements (books and full arrangements available, vocals)

Most of the standards and the classical stuff post-dates the 1923 cutoff date and any simpler arrangements would be covered by publisher copyright.
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
After not sleeping a wink last night thinking about this topic, I came to a clear revelation/realization.



It's why I love this site, people are passionate but never bombastic. Have an early night tonight Mr SH.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 12:33 AM

......



Posted By: Copper

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 01:09 AM

I'm in after a real battle with the hesitation and stutter thing. It's just not going away, enough is enough.

I'm happy. This is a happy place.
Posted By: Copper

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 01:35 AM


The PWABF, what a great place!

You can submit a recording and it makes you feel good. And it's free!
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 01:37 AM

You know I always like your work, Copper. So I'm glad you're in. You haven't missed any, have you?

Cathy
Posted By: Copper

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 02:07 AM


No, I haven't missed any. All 34 recitals starting with February 15, 2006.

In retrospect the consistency is surprising. 8+ years ago a self-taught beginner and today still a beginner and still no lessons.

I rarely get more than 5-10 minutes at the keyboard per day and I also rarely miss a day. So progress is slow, very slow. And I just barely keep getting something recorded every 3 months.

I'm certain that if I hadn't happened to find the recital back then I would have made even less progress. It supplies some motivation.

Another odd fact, I've never played on a real piano. After 60 years and 34 recitals you would think I'd have bumped into one somewhere.

Someday I'll have a little time and a little money and I'll get some lessons and a piano and be shocked at what a hacker I was.
Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 02:42 AM

I'm glad your still around Copper. You are one of the originals from years ago along with Monica who haven't missed a single recital since its inception. The fact that you haven't played on a 'real' piano in all this time is even more amazing.

But then again, people who fly helicopters ARE amazing people who are capable of all kinds of surprises.

You're one of the good guys Cu!
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 03:11 AM

Well, if you ever make it to NM, or even AZ and S-H's way, you can play on my real piano or his mighty M & H. Although WiseBuff and I did laugh a little at how funny one of the C's on mine sounds, because it no longer holds a tune and it's kind of startling when it gets played.

I'm looking forward to your playing.

Cathy
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 04:20 AM

I made a post, that stated edits should've been defined at the call of submission without ambiguity which would've avoided the snafu'ed debate and comments that came afterward.
Along with the hidden accusations of ....

Someone made a comment that I considered personal, targeted and guilt invoking.
Really , if people can't voice opinion without a a personal attack or innuendo, perhaps I'm not or maybe with the one with a problem and in the wrong place. Really .
Posted By: CarlosCC

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Copper

No, I haven't missed any. All 34 recitals starting with February 15, 2006.

In retrospect the consistency is surprising. 8+ years ago a self-taught beginner and today still a beginner and still no lessons.

I rarely get more than 5-10 minutes at the keyboard per day and I also rarely miss a day. So progress is slow, very slow. And I just barely keep getting something recorded every 3 months.
(...)

That's remarkable, Copper.
And I identify myself with your path: "self-taught beginner and today still a beginner and still no lessons". I know what you mean with a "slow progress". thumb
Posted By: keystring

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 09:42 AM

I read through the whole thread finally including the "controversy". Shiro Kiro, I don't think that a single edit of a pause in the middle of a piece will phase anyone much. It's a massive electronic reworking like S-H described that would definitely be a problem. That said, close to "warts 'n all" is probably the best way to go in this forum. What that means is up to every individual.

I've been thinking about this. I too have seen it as a record of each person's journey as they develop in piano. It's not the same as the Pianist forum where they show off their work and "perform". By definition, we are people who are learning to play piano, so we are developing (rather than developed). These recitals help us get used to "playing in public". Feedback from our peers help with that growth: actual suggestions (to be taken with a grain of salt) as well as how we might affect our listener. Again it's not like in the Pianist forum, where they expect a certain kind of "perfection" because the person is supposed to already have the abilities.

That's for individuals. How about as a group? Well, we're not competing with each other and not judging each other. Still, you can't help being aware of how everyone else is playing. This is a place for learners, which means we still have weak areas and imperfections. I think that for someone who is nearer to the beginning, it is comforting to see that more advanced players still have hiccups to overcome. If I do hear something that is rather well done, I also want to learn from it. How did this person manage to do that particular thing? If it turns out to be an electronic tweak, there is nothing to learn from it. That is disappointing. By the same token, if I watch a person progress over time, this may also give me hope about my eventual progress. So looking at it this way, within the group, there is a lot that seems to speak for natural imperfection.

In the same vein, if a relative beginner finds his performance wedged between some super duper professional sounding performances, and doesn't know that they were done by an experienced pianist who also did extensive tweaking electronically, then he may feel small and inadequate. In fact, we've got the scenario of listening to commercial performances all over again (or worse, the "super kids"). That's discouraging, and the ABF is about ENcouraging. But I don't think we're talking about a single deleted long pause.

In regards to commercial performances that have been tweaked: well they are commercial performances. They are meant to sell, and everyone who is involved in the commercial aspect has their grubby hands on it. Sometimes the older recordings are more human and alive, including their "imperfections". But in any case, that's not our purpose in this forum.
Posted By: gingko2

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 10:26 AM

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to the forums (lurked for a long while) and it's only the 2nd time I've posted to a recital. This should perhaps be a new thread. With your advice, I'll repost after I get home from work today.

Right now the focus of my practice is to play my pieces without hesitations, stutters, pauses. So I'm playing easier music and making myself perform for family, etc. My teacher even wants me to play sometimes with recorded music to learn to play through errors. It's difficult and against all the habits of my earlier practice ("in my youth").

I have to confess, before I owned a digital piano, I never heard myself play. I never realized how often I hesitated, stuttered, and paused. With difficult passages the intensity of thinking (terror) prevented listening to what I was playing. I never realized how the musicality was affected by all those hesitations. The recordings from my digital were/are ear-opening.

So, how do you deal with this? I'm assuming "my problem" with hesitations, stutters, pauses is a common problem.
Posted By: Sam S

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by gingko2

So, how do you deal with this? I'm assuming "my problem" with hesitations, stutters, pauses is a common problem.


Extremely common. I've been dealing with it for 6 or 7 years now. If you find an answer let me know!

Sam
Posted By: Copper

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky

But then again, people who fly helicopters ARE amazing people who are capable of all kinds of surprises.


Actually I'm a fixed-wing guy. If my wings start spinning around I'm in trouble.

Now that you mention it I started flying about the same time these recitals started. I had instructors and now I'm an instructor. With the piano I've had no instructors and I'm still a beginner. I guess that's a good lesson about the importance of instructors.
Posted By: evamar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 01:40 PM

.... still trying to get my entry to a decent level! I forgot everything after going on a holiday!!!

eek
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 02:59 PM

gingko - I think the hesitations, stutters, and pauses range from "extremely common" as Sam says, to universal laugh You'll find threads and posts on it and ways people are dealing with it and trying to make them less common popping up a lot here in the ABF. I had hesitationitis in my recital piece this time, and a couple of times in the past. It seems that since I've decided to focus on performance skills and distractions and how to deal with them, and my audiences want to sing more and I try to accommodate them, it's gotten worse.

I *think*, over time it will actually get better again from being brought in to awareness and addressed. At least I'm hoping. One thing I'm doing right now, which may not be applicable to you, is reducing the sing-along ones to melody only in the right hand (rather than melody with a harmony note) when I can remember to do that in the heat of the moment. Simplification. I can play many melodies by ear, so that seems to give me less distraction. Although as a practice technique that might be an approach that would be helpful. I dunno. I'm still working on it.

But I will have to say that I admire you for assuming that they're common. Realism FTW! laugh They certainly are. It seems to me even that will help reduce the stress over the long run. At least you have company!

I'm looking forward to your piece. We can go have a beer together afterwards and laugh about it - oh, yeah, I can't drink any more :\ I know - we'll make up stories to tell our grand kids about it smile Well, I don't have grand kids either, but I've got a lot of stories smile

See you Thursday!

Cathy
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 06:22 PM

evamar - I've been reading your post in AOTW - laugh I'm sure it will all come back -

Cathy
Posted By: gingko2

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 10:29 PM

Hi Sam S,

At least we know it's a problem! I'm using the metronome more and for the final performance listening to the recordings, marking the places I paused, then practicing those transitions a lot. Trying to improve the ear to hear those lapses too. There is a v-e-r-y long rest in my Tchaikovsky submission. ABF is so kind that no one mentionned it!

Cathy,

We can have a virtual beer--less caloric. And stories are always worthwhile (necessary to a good life).

I'm just really happy to have this forum. Preparing for the Tchaikovsky recital and this quarterly have been valuable experiences. I've worked so much harder and more efficiently than I have in years. My goal is to perform musical pieces. This process is great for my practicing and my ear.

Looking forward to hearing the recital and don't mind if others' hear my errors. I want to improve. Thank you! Hope I can offer some constructive comments to others though don't know if I know enough to make worthwhile comments. There's a lot of knowledge here--very impressive.

evamar,

Good luck! Looking forward to your submission.
Posted By: 8 Octaves

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by gingko2
We can have a virtual beer--less caloric.


I like virtual stuff. At work, we create virtual network channels, configure our virtual servers, and discuss in our virtual meetings. At home, I play a virtual piano on occasion, but always with REAL beer.
Posted By: rnaple

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sam S
Originally Posted by gingko2

So, how do you deal with this? I'm assuming "my problem" with hesitations, stutters, pauses is a common problem.


Extremely common. I've been dealing with it for 6 or 7 years now. If you find an answer let me know!

Sam


This and more is why I went to the System I'm on now. I refuse to accept that. Y'all will find out how it works out. So far, so good.
Posted By: earlofmar

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/13/14 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by gingko2
We can have a virtual beer--less caloric.


I like virtual stuff. At work, we create virtual network channels, configure our virtual servers, and discuss in our virtual meetings. At home, I play a virtual piano on occasion, but always with REAL beer.



I am on a virtual diet at the moment and actually losing virtual weight...go figure
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 12:16 AM

Ah, maybe if have virtual food I, too, could lose virtual weight! gingko2 - I'll meet you in the lobby smile

Cathy
Posted By: Andy Platt

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 12:39 AM

Well, I'm finally in at number 43, think that's a record (late) for me!

I followed all the discussion about editing, not editing, recording in one go, etc. etc. very carefully. I did my recording, I took out each note individually in Audacity, polished it and put it back in again. Perfect! wink

OK, I recorded it in two goes - dances 1-5 a few weeks ago and dance 6 this weekend once I had finally learned it!
Posted By: gingko2

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 12:51 AM

Re: virtual

Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by gingko2
We can have a virtual beer--less caloric.


I like virtual stuff. At work, we create virtual network channels, configure our virtual servers, and discuss in our virtual meetings. At home, I play a virtual piano on occasion, but always with REAL beer.



I am on a virtual diet at the moment and actually losing virtual weight...go figure



Even at 59+, not everything is virtual! Thank goodness for a life not spent in front of a screen.
Posted By: jotur

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 01:13 AM

Andy Platt - laugh

Cathy
Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 06:56 PM

I'm in! I recorded my piece yesterday as soon as the technician left. There are a couple of mistakes/ stuttering, but I'm OK with that.

I could not put in the submission form the URL to my avatar, it's a pic I uploaded on PW months ago and I could not find the link in my profile... somebody can help please? smile
Posted By: Greener

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 07:06 PM

[Linked Image]

[ img]www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/20130526-012_sviluppo_20130526.jpg[/img]

remove space after first open bracket to activate.

Is this what you mean/need?

I'm look forward to hearing your piece and all others ... starting to get the goose bumps ... smile

Posted By: Rerun

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 07:16 PM

Well ... I think I'm in but got the message my recording wasn't in the package for this recital either, that's three out of three. If it doesn't make it by quitting time, don't fret. It was a one-off completely unedited dp speaker to audacity ladened dell laptop thru the on-board mike about the size of a square bb ... oh, and I've barely looked at the dp in the last month cry

Next project, patent a square bb gun with rifling to shoot down dead tree limbs.
Posted By: torquenale

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 07:44 PM

Greener, thank you! I feel SO stupid because I did not even think to right - click on the image!! blush
I was excited because of my submission...
Posted By: wouter79

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 08:33 PM

We can start listening in a few hours!

Remember to PM me if you play acoustic and want any feedback from me.



Posted By: Monica K.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions - 05/14/14 09:26 PM

Fret not, everybody! I was able to get rerun's recording uploaded. smile About 3.5 hours til the deadline. All you procrastinators out there need to start freaking out... eek
Posted By: piano_primo_1

COUNTDOWN ...5...4....3...2...... - 05/15/14 12:53 AM

IS ON.............
Posted By: Pathbreaker

Re: COUNTDOWN ...5...4....3...2...... - 05/15/14 12:57 AM

I just bumped everyone. You're welcome. smile

Funny thing is I submitted my recording from 5 days ago but never got around to uploading it.
Posted By: piano_primo_1

COUNTDOWN .......3...2...... - 05/15/14 01:00 AM

1
Posted By: jotur

Re: COUNTDOWN .......3...2...... - 05/15/14 01:05 AM

You think I should go practice while I'm waiting the uploads? laugh

Cathy
Posted By: Monica K.

Re: COUNTDOWN .......3...2...... - 05/15/14 01:08 AM

I got a submission at 8:57 pm. Talk about cutting it close!! All right, folks; I'm headed off to change into my AB Forum Recital persona. Stay tuned for lots of terrific music!
Posted By: piano_primo_1

Re: COUNTDOWN .......3...2...... - 05/15/14 01:10 AM

Ummm , don't know, I just finished building a theater sofa from pallets.
So I'm in a good spirit.
I'll practice tomorrow. or tonight ,or......
Posted By: ShiroKuro

Re: COUNTDOWN .......3...2...... - 05/15/14 01:10 AM

Yay! Congratulations to everyone who submitted, and thanks Monica for getting it all ready!
© 2019 Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums