Piano World Home Page
Maybe I'm overreacting (a specialty of mine!) but I fear this may result in graded recitals. I feel that most of us here might prefer that particular can of worms remain closed.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...ion_-_a_different_type_.html#Post2212277
Well, maybe overreacting a little. I mean, they are free to do whatever they want over in the Pianist Corner. A few of the regulars in the ABF have participated in some of their recitals (I had a piece in the Chopin Mazurka Recital). But I don't see it detracting from the ABF quarterly recital, unless it siphons off some of the better players who might want to prepare something longer and more involved.

The fact is that the Pianist Corner has a different vibe than the Adult Beginners Forum, at least that is the way I perceive it.

Recently we have had an increase in recital activity, with the themed recitals, and I don't think that has detracted much, if any, from the quarterly recital.

There seems to be room, and interest, in all types of recitals. I have to think that is a good thing. I'm surprised no one has organized a popular themed recital or an Einaudi recital!

Sam



I don't think it will have a negative impact on the ABF recitals.
It is a different type of e-cital aimed at folks who want to present longer complex pieces.

And as it was suggested over in the PC, I think that anyone who has the courage to wander over there should feel free to go for it. I believe that a great number of the folks who are skilled enough to be welcome in PC still spend most of their time in ABF because.....we're just a little bit friendlier over here smile



The only problem I can see is it would dilute the activities already in place. I don`t care for sonatas beyond the 4 minute stage . . . . The piano bar was very quiet last month! But if it`s on the Pianist forum, then that`s the best place for it and those wanting to join in. Whatever else you do -

Have fun!
I've been reading that, too. But I don't think it would be a problem. The works they're talking about apparently are works that are highly unlikely to be in our quarterly recitals - tho we've had some that are 10 minutes long. I don't think the beginners that we encourage - the ones with a week or 6 months playing time - are going to play those works. And for those ABFers who might like to try those works, if the file size fits the ABF, go for it. And if they'd like to post it in the other recital, go for that.

There doesn't seem to be a prior restriction on how well you can play one of those pieces - how could there be? - so I don't see them leaving anyone out who wants to play there.

And for those who feel uncomfortable playing in the ABF recital because they feel their abilities are beyond ABF and perhaps inappropriate in an ABF recital, well, we *are* the adult beginners forum. And while that also includes those of who restarted as adults, and we have some very accomplished pianists, I don't have a problem with the PC providing a place for others. Regular posters here have participated in themed recitals hosted in the PC, and vice-versa.

As long as the quarterly recitals here remain comfortable for the 1 week to 6 months folks, and we do have to reiterate that every once in awhile, I think folks will sort themselves out and there will still folks who cross-over.

Cathy
First rule of ABF recitals is they are ABF recitals. I don't think we need to worry.

Peterws - sorry my next ABF submission will be a > 4 minute Sonata. I don't think even the shortest Sonatinas clock in much less than that. I don't think you will find it uninteresting ...
Oh, and the ABF quarterly still isn't a "themed" recital - anything goes. It's the only my pieces are welcomed in, besides the themed Joplin that's coming up. I'd hate for the ABF recital to not be that. We encourage comments, and if we had longer and more classical because we were the *only* place people could post those all the non-classical would get lost in forest.

And there is some discussion there about why the members-recordings isn't as useful to some - much the kind of discussion, it seems to me, that we had when we started Ecco Fatto - a couple of people think member recordings in the PC is intimidating. So, we have Ecco Fatto for those who feel not quite ready for the quartlerly recitals, even tho those of us who post in the recitals would welcome them, and the PC may have a new recital that some who feel the members recordings section might not be welcoming.

So the "gradations" seem to me to be more about personal feelings than actual gradations. And in that there will never be a perfect place for some/everyone. At some point we just have to take the plunge, eh?

Cathy
Originally Posted by Andy Platt
First rule of ABF recitals is they are ABF recitals. I don't think we need to worry.

Peterws - sorry my next ABF submission will be a > 4 minute Sonata. I don't think even the shortest Sonatinas clock in much less than that. I don't think you will find it uninteresting ...

Speed it up a bit, lad!
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Andy Platt
First rule of ABF recitals is they are ABF recitals. I don't think we need to worry.

Peterws - sorry my next ABF submission will be a > 4 minute Sonata. I don't think even the shortest Sonatinas clock in much less than that. I don't think you will find it uninteresting ...

Speed it up a bit, lad!


Heh, heh ... good one.
The ABF quarterly recitals are just that....quarterly. They are held every three months so anyone can plan ahead accordingly.

If you can't get a piece ready in 3 months,...not to worry because you should be WELL prepared for the following recital three months later. That's six months to practice the piece and get it ready.

Should you not be able to get a piece ready in six months,....not to worry as the next recital will be in three months. This will give you nine months to get a piece ready.

Should you not be able to get a piece ready in nine months,...not to worry because there will be another quarterly recital in three months. That will give you a full year to get a piece ready.

Because this is a 'beginer' forum [think Pampers!] scheduling performances nine months in advance to prepare for more difficult pieces and discerning listeners is an epic 'compatibility fail' for a beginning learning forum. This is probably what separates us most from the Pianist Corner group.

In addition, while I am a fan of the a specific genre/themed recital, ANY genre/themed performance is welcome in the ABF quarterly themed recitals. On the other hand, if too many recitals are popping up on a frequent, perpetual basis, it will start to have a diluting effect on ALL the recitals. None of them will be as special anymore.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation!
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky

In addition, while I am a fan of the a specific genre/themed recital, ANY genre/themed performance is welcome in the ABF quarterly themed recitals. On the other hand, if too many recitals are popping up on a frequent, perpetual basis, it will start to have a diluting effect on ALL the recitals. None of them will be as special anymore.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation!


It's this I worry about. The e-citals seemed quite special. Right up to the Grieg themed recital. Now, all of a sudden, there has been a real uptick in the number of themed e-citals. I was at first disappointed I was not participating in that many. But, now I am quite happy that I skipped the Tchaikovsky and Mazurka recitals. I think my teacher is too. She's happy to help me with PW stuff within moderation. Too much is too much. I could tell it was putting a strain on things. I picked the Nocturne I did because it was something I had prepared a while ago. I've asked if "we can bring it to another level". She's fine with that. Too much of anything is not a good thing. I've also pulled back from detailed comments on each performance. Fewer comments can be a disappointment for the contributors. But, I would hope people participate not simply for the comments they might or might not receive. I guess each of us needs to moderate ourselves as far as participation. The Nocturne recital will be the first one on PC I have done. The jury is still out on whether recitals over there will be for me. I like the ABF. It's more me. I'll just have to see how things go.
I thought we already had "judging"... All those comments...More like a Peanut Gallery Judging...
Now that fits the ABF... Peanut Gallery...
Yes peterws.... you're allowed to have wine concentrate in the peanut gallery.


Seriously..... I don't comment because I know people already know the lacks in their piece. They're working to learn. Get it out on time. I don't want to discourage people from trying.
Quote
Should you not be able to get a piece ready in nine months,...not to worry because there will be another quarterly recital in three months. That will give you a full year to get a piece ready.

This is where my brain explodes and I go into a funk! ha grin
I don't see issue with having both forum doing e-citals. I belong to ABF but go over there a lot too. It's all good to me. I don't do quarterlies very much. I think it's because of lack of pressure. It's easy for me not to post a piece if its all up to me and no one's pressing me hard to keep my commitments. Sorry I'm a lazy ass
I think critiques that are judged as harsh often lack context, or don't take into consideration context. I think the key is to acknowledge both (a) how somebody is doing relative to their situation (years playing, time to practice) as well as (b) how somebody is doing on an absolute scale (how they play vs. how the piece should be played)

What I see a lot is situations where a beginner really surprises me and goes above and beyond what they should be playing; but then get critiqued against professional standards. The critic should be giving feedback on on an absolute scale without addressing the relative scale--and both are important.
I think the ABF and the Pianist section have a different purpose and philosophy. In the ABF, we are students trying to learn how to play. We can be at all kinds of "levels" within that framework. In the Pianist section, it is geared toward people who believe they can play. In the ABF I'd expect to get more advice on how to do things - the Pianist corner I'd expect that they're looking at my interpretation, and that they think I already know how to do things.

There's a gray area where a person falls between these two places: he's still a student learning how to do things, but also good enough to want to be considered for the quality of his music, and playing more advanced things.
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Andy Platt
First rule of ABF recitals is they are ABF recitals. I don't think we need to worry.

Peterws - sorry my next ABF submission will be a > 4 minute Sonata. I don't think even the shortest Sonatinas clock in much less than that. I don't think you will find it uninteresting ...

Speed it up a bit, lad!


Peterws: Speed it up!
My teacher: Slow it down!

wink
And there are some if us who aren't beginners. We don't qualify for that indulgence. Marginal players like me. We just aren't very good and probably never will be. We'd be torn to shreds on PC. But because we love the instrument as much as the gifted, we need an outlet too. I just don't want anyone to have agonize over whether to post on an ABF recital or not. I just want to keep it friendly, anything goes, unrated as it is now.

Originally Posted by -Frycek
Maybe I'm overreacting (a specialty of mine!) but I fear this may result in graded recitals. I feel that most of us here might prefer that particular can of worms remain closed.



Seems not that long ago there was a thread the gist of which was the ABF Recital was too scary for most newbies, the breadth of talent and complexity of the repertoire was so high. I drew from this thread an ongoing debate probably starting from day one, reflecting a crisis of identity among many of the Adult Beginners Forum members who have over the years advanced to the point they find it difficult to place themselves into the advanced category and so depart this very homely forum. Am I not the only one who queries the entry of supposedly (I will never find out) one of the most complex pieces of piano music: the Chopin Ballade No 1 and now a thread for its dissection and study in a beginners forum? This forum can be a very intimidating place the title, which may have been apt in the beginning, is now a grand misnomer.

Don't get me wrong I think the diversity of ability is only a boon for anyone who actively participates or lurks in this forum so in my eyes all are equally welcome no matter how good or bad (just wish some would be a bit more sharing instead of quipping).

So to the point....some players may be wishing for an e-recital more demanding and by definition more exclusive. That is great, for those pianists are in transition to a higher level and may end up leaving ABF and the quarterly e-recitals. All the more room for the newer players to fill the void I would think and express themselves more freely. The quarterly recital was a stroke of genius (thanks Mr Superhunky) and as a quasi institution in it's own right is strong enough to survive.
Addendum to my last post.

I plan to single handed (no pun intended) bring down the high standard of the next quarterly recital with my next offering.
You're going to play a piece for the left hand alone?
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by earlofmar


I plan to single handed (no pun intended) bring down the high standard of the next quarterly recital with my next offering.
You're going to play a piece for the left hand alone?


LOL!

I kind of agree that the more advanced pianists - even the non-professional - are kind of in a no-man's land. I personally love the friendliness of the ABF, but I also don't feel right posting recordings here expect when there's themed recitals that contain some music that would be beyond other ABFers. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, but we know we are far from what we would consider a "real" pianist due to time constraints or other limitations we have.

I think there's a more competitive feel on the PC, and that's fine for those that like that. I'm a very competitive person, but since I know I'm not able to be as good as I can, I'm rather embarrassed to post my recordings. I've gotten to know and respect many ABFers and the encouragement that I get here can't be beat. Just because I'm advanced doesn't mean I don't need encouraging words too! smile
Originally Posted by Morodiene


Just because I'm advanced doesn't mean I don't need encouraging words too! smile


Well it's out of context but you did ask for it.......thanks for all your wonderful posts, I often come across you name in historical posts giving out words of wisdom. One of the few teachers who come to the ABF to teach, so thanks for being a voice of experience and reason.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
And there are some if us who aren't beginners. We don't qualify for that indulgence. Marginal players like me. We just aren't very good and probably never will be. We'd be torn to shreds on PC. But because we love the instrument as much as the gifted, we need an outlet too. I just don't want anyone to have agonize over whether to post on an ABF recital or not. I just want to keep it friendly, anything goes, unrated as it is now.

Frycek, I am a big fan of your posts (and your playing, btw!) and usually find myself in in complete agreement with you. But I think you've grabbed the wrong end of the stick here.

I’ve read the PC thread and don’t see why you feel so alarmed. They’re not trying to compete with the ABF quarterly recitals. People aren’t being asked to choose one over the other. It doesn’t seem to me that there’s any reason for ABF to change how we manage our recitals, or for ABFers to agonize over participating in them. People who like aspects of both the PC and ABF recitals are certainly free to participate in both. They are different animals. (The recitals, I mean, not the players!)

I doubt that PC introducing e-citals will suddenly cause anyone here to shake the dust of ABF off their shoes and head for the PC hills – but, even if some did, what would it matter? It's not like we need to fill X number of performance slots. People do or don’t participate in recitals for all sorts of reasons. Some are wildly committed to posting a recording every quarter; others, like me, have only done one or two. It’s never threatened the recitals or the health of our community.

Perhaps I am just completely missing the point, but this whole thread feels like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. Please know that I mean no offense, but I simply can’t get my head around what is worrying you so.
I've read this thread and I can't figure out what the point is for the life of me! Critique, no critique? Too many recitals? Can't decide if one belongs to ABF or PC? etc.

Personally, I don't find the themed recitals distracting because I can only take part in some of them anyway, as most are just too difficult. And as for the quarterly recitals, my pieces are selected among the easiest and shortest ones I'm working on - the ones I can somehow manage to record without wasting too much of my practice time - so it's not particularly stressful. Nobody should feel compelled to participate every time.
Originally Posted by sinophilia
I've read this thread and I can't figure out what the point is for the life of me!


It was a slow news day
Originally Posted by Morodiene
[quote=Polyphonist][quote=earlofmar]

... Just because I'm advanced doesn't mean I don't need encouraging words too! smile




Weeks ago I was moved when I heard you play the memory of Panda. I don't know what directed me to that post, but I'm glad something did.
This is specifically the part of this discussion that disturbed me. The notion that those who are attempting more advanced pieces are somehow perverting the purpose of the recitals. I couldn't care less about what they do on PC. I do care about what is allowed here. So far everything and everyone are allowed and I hope it stays that way.

"Well, you may be right. Surely there have been some longer pieces represented there, like Chopin's first Ballade. But most pieces are short and relatively simple, and many are outside the classical repertoire. Probably the initial intention with the ABF quarterlies was to give relatively inexperienced players to present their stuff. And lately some of us old foxes have entered the scene and spoiled everything.

The piece I have been considering to study is maybe not as technically difficult as the Chopin Ballade, but it is more or less in the same league and a pretty long piece. I would think twice before submitting it for the ABF recital. I'm just afraid that many of the other participants would find it annoying."


Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post
A number of years ago, someone actually proposed using a grading scheme on ABF quarterly recitals. The poster thought of it as a way to make comments more uniform and more useful. S(he) thought that most comments on the recital lacked content, that most of it was meaningless praise phrases. S(he) created a template of grades that one could assign to all performances.

Fireworks erupted. Full disclosure: I was one who challenged the whole notion of grading ABF performances. I understood that poster's frustration with fairly useless "attaboy" "attagirl" back-patting. I simply felt that any attempt to supplant that with a ranking system would be pure poison on this forum. I still think that.

When I review someone's playing, I do it with some seriousness. I want to be able to make what I think are appropriate suggestions. I offer praise, but I usually take the time to make some gentle critical points as well. That's risky. Some people don't want a critique at all. They just want a pat on the back for all the work they put in. For this reason, I don't review many performances. I listen to more than I write about, simply because of the amount of time it takes to say something serious (but sensitive) about someone else's hard work.

I'm not particularly worried about competition from PC. As others have noted, some people can happily float between the two forums. Others may attempt that straddle, but soon find that they have a real home in one or the other. That discovery process is good. Might the ideas and notions that govern PC bleed over to ABF, destroying the atmosphere of the ABF recitals? Frankly, I doubt it. After many years, this place has a firm sense of self.

I was following the thread on PC and didn't see any cause for concern about the issues you are raising here.

For some of us...the only comments we really are hungry for are wild applause and unconditional approval. That's not saying we don't know the mistakes and limitations of our ability but we need encouragement to perform. Our teachers critique the piece adequately. Since performance anxiety can only be mastered by performance...the more opportunity the better. Beginner recitals, mixed recitals, pop recitals, Chopin, etc. are all good to have as choices. Encourage is what we do well on ABF.
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad


I'm not particularly worried about competition from PC. As others have noted, some people can happily float between the two. Others may attempt that straddle, but soon find that they have a real home in one or the other. That discovery process is good. Might the ideas and notions that govern PC bleed over to ABF, destroying the atmosphere of the ABF recitals? Frankly, I doubt it. After many years, this place has a firm sense of self.


This is very reassuring. I"d just hate to see restrictions (official or otherwise) placed on what we are allowed to submit. (If I remember correctly there is already a fairly generous size restriction for technical reasons.)
Originally Posted by -Frycek
This is specifically the part of this discussion that disturbed me. The notion that those who are attempting more advanced pieces are somehow perverting the purpose of the recitals. I couldn't care less about what they do on PC. I do care about what is allowed here. So far everything and everyone are allowed and I hope it stays that way.

"Well, you may be right. Surely there have been some longer pieces represented there, like Chopin's first Ballade. But most pieces are short and relatively simple, and many are outside the classical repertoire. Probably the initial intention with the ABF quarterlies was to give relatively inexperienced players to present their stuff. And lately some of us old foxes have entered the scene and spoiled everything.

The piece I have been considering to study is maybe not as technically difficult as the Chopin Ballade, but it is more or less in the same league and a pretty long piece. I would think twice before submitting it for the ABF recital. I'm just afraid that many of the other participants would find it annoying."

Well, I understand your concern better now – but I believe the poster you quoted might be a bit overconcerned about this issue. In my view, the inclusion of longer, more complex pieces by some “old foxes” hasn’t “spoiled” anything. It’s doubtful that ABF’s recitals will change in any significant manner, or that we will loose the warm and welcoming approach that makes ABF so comfortable for young pups, old foxes and “marginal players.” smile (Quoting you, but I would never describe your skills as marginal!)

As Piano*Dad and WiseBuff point out, we have a pretty firm sense of self in this forum – and we are all about encouraging one another.
Originally Posted by piano_deb
Originally Posted by -Frycek
This is specifically the part of this discussion that disturbed me. The notion that those who are attempting more advanced pieces are somehow perverting the purpose of the recitals. I couldn't care less about what they do on PC. I do care about what is allowed here. So far everything and everyone are allowed and I hope it stays that way.

"Well, you may be right. Surely there have been some longer pieces represented there, like Chopin's first Ballade. But most pieces are short and relatively simple, and many are outside the classical repertoire. Probably the initial intention with the ABF quarterlies was to give relatively inexperienced players to present their stuff. And lately some of us old foxes have entered the scene and spoiled everything.

The piece I have been considering to study is maybe not as technically difficult as the Chopin Ballade, but it is more or less in the same league and a pretty long piece. I would think twice before submitting it for the ABF recital. I'm just afraid that many of the other participants would find it annoying."

Well, I understand your concern better now – but I believe the poster you quoted might be a bit overconcerned about this issue. In my view, the inclusion of longer, more complex pieces by some “old foxes” hasn’t “spoiled” anything. It’s doubtful that ABF’s recitals will change in any significant manner, or that we will loose the warm and welcoming approach that makes ABF so comfortable for young pups, old foxes and “marginal players.” smile (Quoting you, but I would never describe your skills as marginal!)

As Piano*Dad and WiseBuff point out, we have a pretty firm sense of self in this forum – and we are all about encouraging one another.


+1 to the post.
As someone who feels passionate about ABF (I was welcomed in with open arms and grew together with my friends), nothing more disturbing than sensing hint of conflict within the forum. I don't share any concern about the new themed recitals. I just see it a sign of growth as a community.

I also would like to encourage everyone to give benefit of doubts to what you read on the forum. We have a limited communication in the forum - we don't see and hear each other when we speak. We don't even know true names and background many times. So communication here is not unlike the one I experienced as a non-native speaker of English. I had to learn hard way that "I could be wrong". In fact many times perception of wrong done by others were my misunderstanding. Lets look at the action of the poster quoted by Frycek. He painstakingly listened to everyone's recording and provided very nice well thought out comments. I think he is a very caring person. I think he is just stating what he thinks. As Deb mentioned that I don't think anyone in ABF minds anyone pitting a big work but it makes sense to post it in PC if someone wants feedback. Many people there teach (used to teach, going to teach) piano for living.
earlofmar and Rerun:

Thank you so much for that. I wasn't fishing for compliments by any means, and the people here on ABF have always been so encouraging. That's why I like it so much, and love to contribute in any way I can. wink
The ABF is a big tent, and that big tent is well staked down. No one, beginner or advanced, should feel they can't submit to a recital. ABF is a big tent.

As for the proliferation of themed e-citals, they may well be a waxing and waning phenomenon. Right now there are a slew of them on offer, but I'd bet they'll die down after awhile, then resurge again at some future time, etc. A number of people have already alluded to the self-limiting nature of having a lot of recitals going at the same time.
Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by Morodiene


Just because I'm advanced doesn't mean I don't need encouraging words too! smile


Well it's out of context but you did ask for it.......thanks for all your wonderful posts, I often come across you name in historical posts giving out words of wisdom. One of the few teachers who come to the ABF to teach, so thanks for being a voice of experience and reason.


A big +1 to this. Thanks, Morodiene. (P.S. As a chemist, I automatically think of conjugated double bonds in molecules when I see your screen name. grin )
Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by Morodiene


Just because I'm advanced doesn't mean I don't need encouraging words too! smile


Well it's out of context but you did ask for it.......thanks for all your wonderful posts, I often come across you name in historical posts giving out words of wisdom. One of the few teachers who come to the ABF to teach, so thanks for being a voice of experience and reason.



I second that emotion! smile


Originally Posted by Stubbie


A big +1 to this. Thanks, Morodiene. (P.S. As a chemist, I automatically think of conjugated double bonds in molecules when I see your screen name. grin )


As a non-chemist, I have no idea what this means. But thanks, I think laugh
Is it a new/recent thing for Pianist Corner to hold recitals? was it only Adult Beginners Forum before that? I'm a recent arrival and perhaps naively I assumed that both groups held recitals regularly...
Originally Posted by hreichgott
Is it a new/recent thing for Pianist Corner to hold recitals? was it only Adult Beginners Forum before that? I'm a recent arrival and perhaps naively I assumed that both groups held recitals regularly...


Somewhat new for Pianist Corner, like for the past year or so. ABF have had them forever. We also started the themed recitals.
Why all the ABF vs Pianist Corner arguments? Can't both forums exist without them constantly competing with each other and being compared?
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Why all the ABF vs Pianist Corner arguments? Can't both forums exist without them constantly competing with each other and being compared?



There's no 'competition' per se, but people want what they don't have. As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here which include our quarterly recitals.

As an ABF member, I can only be proud of what this group (as a whole) has accomplished. I look at the Pianist Corner members wanting their own recital (like ours), just like we want to play really well....like them.

It's not really a competition but rather an appreciation for what the other group is doing. Besides, it goes without saying that only the sexy people hang out in the ABF!

Originally Posted by Morodiene
earlofmar and Rerun:

Thank you so much for that. I wasn't fishing for compliments by any means, and the people here on ABF have always been so encouraging. That's why I like it so much, and love to contribute in any way I can. wink


I knew you weren't fishing but I'm glad I followed this thread and then recalled you were the one ... searched for the recording to make sure and welled up again this am ... thanks.
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here.

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here.

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?


Dunno. Must be some reason you hang out around here so much.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here.

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?


Dunno. Must be some reason you hang out around here so much.

Here we go again with the aggression; case in point.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here.

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?


Dunno. Must be some reason you hang out around here so much.

Here we go again with the aggression; case in point.


Moi? Aggressive? Must've forgotten the smiley.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
As beginners, we 'want', or aspire to play as good as the Pianist corner people, and they 'want' to have a friendly and supportive environment that we have here.

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?


You're right. You sleep in the bed you make.

The ABF supportive atmosphere is compatible though as this is where it begins for a lot of people. We are not really that accomplished yet as we are still accomplishing.

Once you become accomplished however, you like to show others what you've accomplished. Since we are still learning and improving, we are more focused on that.

It would only be natural for the Pianist Corner people to display their accomplishments at their level for one another which is basically what they do.

The real difference however is we still get nap time and they don't. To play at that level there is no more nap time. That's the compromise.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?

We do. And we have.
First of all, I have to admit that I'm the person having to take the blame for the present discussion. The reason is that I started a thread under the PC suggesting an e-cital where the focus should be on longer (classical) pieces. I'm also the person behind the quotation:

"Well, you may be right. Surely there have been some longer pieces represented there, like Chopin's first Ballade. But most pieces are short and relatively simple, and many are outside the classical repertoire. Probably the initial intention with the ABF quarterlies was to give relatively inexperienced players to present their stuff. And lately some of us old foxes have entered the scene and spoiled everything.

The piece I have been considering to study is maybe not as technically difficult as the Chopin Ballade, but it is more or less in the same league and a pretty long piece. I would think twice before submitting it for the ABF recital. I'm just afraid that many of the other participants would find it annoying."


Let me just clarify a few things. First of all, I find participation in e-citals very useful. The reason for this is that deadlines for presenting decent recordings has helped me practice more systematically and in relatively short time I think it has made me a better pianist. My first submissions were for the ABF quarterly, but later I have also participated in Mendelssohn, Grieg and Chopin Mazurka themed recitals.

As a result of this I have a nice collection of pieces in my repertoire which I master at a level higher than I did with anything before. These pieces, however, are mostly relatively short, and I have a desire to study a couple of more extensive pieces and hopefully bring them to a similar level as the shorter pieces.

I thought that perhaps the ABF quarterly recital was not the right context for presenting such pieces, and therefore I started the thread proposing the "longer piece e-cital". I'm presently not 100% sure if it is a good idea to pursue this. It is difficult to find a way to give a focus the recital, and there is also a risk that it may become very long. So maybe it never becomes reality.

Anyhow there is one notable difference between the ABF recital and the themed recitals. In the themed recital you sign up for a specific piece and commit yourself to present a recording on a given date. In the ABF recital you present whatever you have ready at the time of submission. Therefore the themed recitals give a somewhat stronger push than the ABF quarterly.

I believe that all the different e-citals can run side by side. Unless I have made myself very unpopular now I'm going to participate in the next ABF quarterly, but not with a very long piece this time.

Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Why all the ABF vs Pianist Corner arguments? Can't both forums exist without them constantly competing with each other and being compared?


It's the class struggle in microcosm.
Originally Posted by Ganddalf
First of all, I have to admit that I'm the person having to take the blame for the present discussion. The reason is that I started a thread under the PC suggesting an e-cital where the focus should be on longer (classical) pieces.

But that's in the Pianist corner which has a different focus, so I don't see what the problem is.
For the record, I didn't mind at all having Chopin's Ballade in the last ABF quarterly recital, and I wouldn't mind listening to an entire piano sonata or something like that; the online player allows to skip and pause if one doesn't want to listen to it all in a row. If one feels that they belong to ABF rather than PC, even if they are very advanced and accomplished players, why not? On the other hand, if you feel that PC is a more appropriate place for such pieces, why not post a link on ABF, so that people who do not follow PC can listen too (and possibly participate, if they want to)?
Ganddalf - as far as I'm concerned (and I believe I can safely speak for many!)..you're more than welcome at the ABF recitals!

I love hearing the performances of those with a lot more experience. I don't know what level I will ever get to - but hearing what others have been able to accomplish over the years of their piano journeys is always a joy.
What cassinitaly said. thumb

Gandalf, one of the beauties of ABF is the EVERYONE is welcome to participate. That includes old foxes with bigger pieces. Please stay.
Originally Posted by Ganddalf

I believe that all the different e-citals can run side by side. Unless I have made myself very unpopular now I'm going to participate in the next ABF quarterly, but not with a very long piece this time.



Gandalf, don't let angst about the different recitals stop you from participating in the quarterly recitals, or organizing a recital for longer pieces in the Pianist Corner. I love to hear you play and appreciate your insightful comments on the recital submissions.

As keeper of the ABF Recital index, I can share some statistics.

We started keeping duration numbers with recital 11.

There are 1286 performances that I have duration numbers for.

The shortest performance: 29 seconds

The longest performance: 15 minutes and 50 seconds

The average performance: 3 minutes and 29 seconds

Top ten longest pieces:
09:15 : Grieg - Wedding Day
09:41 : Chopin Ballade #1
09:54 : Peyton - original
10:11 : Satie - Gnossienne 3,4,5
10:30 : Mozart - K545
10:31 : Schumann Arabesque
11:04 : Mozart - Fantasie
12:12 : Haydn - Sonata 11
13:31 : Mozart - Ah Vous Dirai-je Maman
15:50 : Mozart - K457

Those are your statistics for today!

PS. That agonizing slow Arabesque was my contribution...

Sam
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

I don't know. Sometimes the competitive atmosphere of the PC is quite refreshing. laugh If we wanted a more supportive environment, we would have one, no?


Maybe, but not necessarily.

Once a norm has been established, changing that norm is not such a simple task. A group doesn't easily wake up one day and want something different. For a small group, perhaps 2-3 new members can shake up the norms. For a larger group, it's the individuals who tend to get shaped, or they leave.

Google "path dependence."

Originally Posted by Sam S


Top ten longest pieces:
09:15 : Grieg - Wedding Day
09:41 : Chopin Ballade #1
09:54 : Peyton - original
10:11 : Satie - Gnossienne 3,4,5
10:30 : Mozart - K545
10:31 : Schumann Arabesque
11:04 : Mozart - Fantasie
12:12 : Haydn - Sonata 11
13:31 : Mozart - Ah Vous Dirai-je Maman
15:50 : Mozart - K457

Those are your statistics for today!

PS. That agonizing slow Arabesque was my contribution...

Sam


Interesting statistics! So, maybe playing the long piece(s) in the ABF quarterly is the best option after all.


--removed--

Somehow, the post of Sam S was appearing as first post and I didn't quite get the point :-/
Hi, everyone! laugh

I have read this whole thread with great interest. There were many times I wanted to press the "quote" button and write a reply after each post, but somehow I managed to keep my clicker finger still until I had read everything up to wouter79's post. So, which quote to use as a springboard???

Hmmm. I think this one:

Originally Posted by -Frycek
What cassinitaly said. thumb

Gandalf, one of the beauties of ABF is the EVERYONE is welcome to participate. That includes old foxes with bigger pieces. Please stay.


In Pianist Corner, everyone is welcome to participate, too, though there has been the occasional and unfortunate discouraging comment made by one or two members who are somewhat challenged in the sensitivity department... smile

As some of you know, I am a lapsed pianists who discovered after a 30 year hiatus that I had been missing something very important in my life. That realization happened after my second mid-life crisis. My wife shakes her head and says, "Well, at least its not a Ferrari..." I joined Piano World four (!) years ago when I stumbled on it searching the Internet for information about how to improve my home recordings.

Pianist Corner (and the Tuner/Tech forum) caught my attention immediately. I *saw* the ABF forum, but I did not consider myself a beginner. I *saw* the Piano Forum, but it was too general for my liking. Plus, the way my third mid-life crisis was going, I was identifying with what some might call a "peer aspiration group"--conservatory students, accomplished amateurs, and people who make a living playing the piano. I knew just enough to be dangerous to myself and others, and I was hungry for more of that kind of knowledge, and thought that Pianist Corner might help me make up for the lost time I felt I had missed when I made some bad decisions long ago at the time when most young people are getting their feet firmly on their forward path.

Deluded though I may have been in my third-mid-life-crisis-induced decision-making, I dove in at Pianist Corner.

And!, shortly after I joined Piano World, Pianist Corner opened a new sub-forum called Member Recordings. And!, I was just happily clueless enough about my own abilities to be one of the first people to post a recording at that developing raucous piano party.

Well, I'm glad I did. And I'm glad I continued to post there. I decided early on that I was going adopt an attitude such that if anyone learned anything from any of the discussion that ensued based on a recording that I offered up, it would count for good. I will say that I continue to be a day student at The School of Hard Knocks, and a night student at Piano World University. It's not for everybody--the cost is sometimes high--but the tuition is cheap.

Because there is the Member Recordings sub-forum, the "need" for e-citals in Pianist Corner is different. For the record, e-citals have been going on there for a while, but they are infrequent. Gerg was good enough to help us with a Beethoven Sonata e-cital, and then, there were three "Unsung Heroes" e-citals, and lately, OSK arranged an Alkan e-cital, and Poly and Derulux did the Mazurka e-cital. I think I'm missing one or two others...

In the thread that -Frycek referenced, I wrote something about the difference between recitals and competitions. This is an idea that has been hashed out several times in Member Recordings, too. The etiquette and purpose of each is different. The way I look at it, recitals are celebrations of accomplishment. Competitions are exercises in critique. Personally, I would argue very hard against grading recital performances. I would also not welcome the idea of an e-cital competition. I am concerned about what it might do to the already tenuous collegiality in Pianist Corner, and in ABF, it would certainly introduce a vibe that goes against the kind of encouraging atmosphere that the ABF community has worked so well to create. If anyone wants unvarnished criticism, he/she can post a recording anywhere on Piano World (including in the ABF) and ask for it. Better yet, post a recording in Member Recordings and ask for it, specifically. You'll get it. Some of it will be thoughtful and helpful. Some of it will be rude and snotty. But that comes with life in that particular sand-box, I think, and since all people are wired differently, if you are primed to take offense at *anything* *anyone* might say, well, you'll get what you're ready for, too, no matter how carefully the critique is presented! grin We've had several discussions in Member Recordings regarding how listeners can read clues in the Original Post that might tell the listener whether or not critical comments might be welcomed by the performer. If that detail is in question, several members have adopted the practice of asking before criticizing, "Are you open to critiques?" To me, that is a nice development. Also, to me, it seems like the Member Recordings sub-forum is used sometimes to showcase an accomplishment (recital-style), and sometimes as a masterclass (seeking critique). And, that's the cool thing about it! smile

Well, I hope you don't mind those few paragraphs from the perspective of an ABF lurker. I like the e-citals. I like listening to them and I like participating in them. The more the better, I say!

*Yawn*. Wow, Mr. Super-Hunky! All that writing made me tired. I think I shall take a nap, now. grin

--Andy
(Just for the record, if there's anyone in the Pianists Corner that I'd like to play more like (they're mostly classical and I don't play classical) it's Cinnamonbear. Wowzer smile )

I would also like to say - hurrah! for the 29-second submission! I love those pieces.

And it sounds like the Member Recordings in the PC are perhaps not all "this is going to be released on CD" performances, and might yet let Ganddalf do some things there - there's a place for many different kinds of things on PW. The ABF quarterly recitals are but one.

Cathy

Cinnamonbear, stop lurking. We need old bears as much as old foxes.
LOL! Your's and Cathy's comments just made my heart grow three sizes... I will dip my toe cautiously into these waters... grin
Cinnamonbear, loved your post. You will be loved on this side of the house too (if not already). I can totally relate to what you said. I do have a couple of friends there but PC had been a scary place for me for a long time. Because after all I am a developing pianist (like those countries). Initially I thought some kind of auditions were required to be a member of the PC. Everything changed lately after posted my piece to Mazurka recital. Just like ABF, people gave us overwhelmingly warm and useful feedback to the participants from ABF. I started paying attention to what's going on more and came to like even "completely opinionated" opinions if it makes any English sense to you. Some people are giving really honest feedback too. Of course, they tend to give those honest feedbacks to those who can take it and must have it. Vast majority of the people there are as sensitive like us here in ABF. It's completely my twisted personal opinion but, to my surprise I found those honest feedbacks to be refreshing. How many time I hear honest comments I need to hear in piano performance? I love ABF too. There are so many people like me here. Working full time / raising family and trying make this little time to practice. Everyone feels each other's pain here. Where else can I find thread like "how you practice when you are on business trip?" ? Love the flexibility of the forum to let us go to both forums.
Sam, thanks for the fascinating view into our recitals!

Cinnamonbear (Andy), I hope you'll start hanging out in ABF more, even if you are well beyond the beginner stage. I loved reading about your experience in PC. I've generally found the discussions in there whizzing around well above my head and so I don't feel capable of contributing -- but one of these days I hope to get enough theory and technique under my belt to at least do some useful lurking. wink
I think quite a few of us post both under the PC and the ABF. In my case it has been perhaps 70% ABF and 30% PC. To begin with I was a bit frustrated because I'm absolutely not a beginner ( even if I sometimes feel I play like one) and the PC seemed to be dominated by advanced students and professionals who spent most of the time discussing Chopin etudes and ballades. I missed an "amateur pianist" forum, but eventually I found that lurking and sometimes posting under both forums was right for me.

I'm absolutely not interested in creating any conflict between the forums, and I don't really feel that it will be any problem if I arrange a "long piece recital" under the PC. I'll continue to contribute to the ABF quarterly and also themed recitals under this forum.

I second FarmGirl's post. The feedback given for instance under the Chopin Mazurka recital was generally positive.

If I have expressed myself in a way that has hurt somebody I apologise for this. Also keep in mind that for those of us being non-native English speakers and not living in an Englsh speaking country there is always a risk that we say things we actually don't mean.
I realize that this will seem nonsensical to many but others will completely understand it.

It's possible that there is an underlying reason why the ABF and the Pianist Corner get compared so often. At original onset, it may appear that something is missing. But in reality, it is not. You just have to understand the unique, happy little internet town called Pianoworld.


You see, the Pianoworld forums are set up like a local school system with three basic levels for three groups of people.

. Elementary School for the new, beginning kids
. Middle School(junior high) for bigger/intermediate kids.
. High School for the older kids.

Right off the bat though, something is different in this town. For some reason, the town doesn't have a middle school so the middle school/junior high kids continue to go to their old elementary school.

And here's the kicker,.....that's the way the people in this town want it. They've said so many, Many, MANY times!

So, for the most part, the little town of Pianoworld is a nice, quite, peaceful town in where everyone pretty much gets along. The only unusual thing is the fact that the townspeople have chosen to continue having their kids stay on in elementary school until such time that they are able to comfortably function at the high school level on an ongoing basis.

If you're wondering 'why not just open up the middle school as a transition between elementary and high school?', the answer is because that's how the people in this town want it.

This may better explain why you will hear more advanced playing/pieces at times in the ABF quarterly recitals, and why some members are a bit hesitant to jump into the Pianist Corner events.

Personally, I like having 2nd gear between 1st and 3rd but as I've said, the tribe has spoken on this many times.

I'm not trying to open up another can of worms because I'm not allowed to due to a self imposed gag order, but what I am trying to do is possibly explain why the comparisons between the ABF and the PC keep coming up.

For me there's more to it than just - I'm not at the level of the PC.

The PC is heavily classically oriented.

The ABF has a much wider range of styles - from old pop like I play, to new age, to jazz, to whatever.

For whatever reason the "non-classical" forum has never quite taken off in the same way the ABF has. There are some regular posters there, and some of the more involved jazz folks are over there (but even at that there's an active advanced jazz thread here in the ABF).

So to me, the overall focus of the ABF is - learning. How to play, some things about theory, whatever comes up we might have questions about.

The PC has always seemed to me not only more focused on classical (99.99%?) but less focused on the process of playing piano and all the associated topics. I can't imagine an AOTW thread there laugh

And the process is an integral part of playing piano for me. So the discussions here are more to my taste.

There's no comparison, for me, between levels of playing in the ABF and the PC. There's just a difference in focus.

Cathy
I haven't commented in this thread yet, although I've been following most of it. Count me with the group who think that an e-cital in the PC forum is not likely to influence how recitals are done here in the ABF. Also, I guess I should be put into Mr S-H's middle school, because as I have written here before, I began as an adult beginner, so I still consider myself an "adult beginner" even though I am no longer playing beginning-level pieces. I don't have the same background as someone who's played since childhood, so I don't have the same concerns either.

And like Cathy, my interests musically don't seem to fit well with the PC, either.

Quote
For whatever reason the "non-classical" forum has never quite taken off in the same way the ABF has.


Yeah, I've always wondered about that. It's weird, but there's just not as much traffic there, whereas in the ABF, there seem to be more people who post regularly who are interested in non-classical music, so that's another reason why I visit the ABF more than any other forum here at PW.
Originally Posted by Sam S
Top ten longest pieces:
09:15 : Grieg - Wedding Day
09:41 : Chopin Ballade #1
09:54 : Peyton - original
10:11 : Satie - Gnossienne 3,4,5
10:30 : Mozart - K545
10:31 : Schumann Arabesque
11:04 : Mozart - Fantasie
12:12 : Haydn - Sonata 11
13:31 : Mozart - Ah Vous Dirai-je Maman
15:50 : Mozart - K457

Those are your statistics for today!
K457 was me. blush It should have been shorter.

Oh my gosh. I just noticed. The Haydn was me too. laugh

... and the Satie! How embarrassing.

Ganddalf, please, please submit several long pieces and knock mine down a bit on the list!
From what I have seen I think that in general e-citals in the Pianist Corner are friendlier than for example certain comments in the Members Recordings section (a sub-forum of the Pianist Corner). E-citals seem to have always been nice and encouraging. smile
I have started a "Suite" e-cital under "Pianist Corner". The intention is not to drain any interest from other e-citals, and what I have seen so far is that many people who never participated in e-citals before (neither under ABF nor PC) show interest in the suite recital.

Anyone who mainly post under the ABF forum are welcome to participate. It is possible for two or more persons to join forces and "share" a suite, and as for now none of Bach's French Suites are taken. In addition there are several short ones by Händel to choose from. I expect encouraging and constructive commenting when we get as far as the presentation of the pieces.
LOL I'm in the top 10 smile that Mozart KV545 was mine. I think I kept a decent tempo ... And I already left the third part out :-p

Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Hi, everyone! laugh

I have read this whole thread with great interest. There were many times I wanted to press the "quote" button and write a reply after each post, but somehow I managed to keep my clicker finger still until I had read everything ...


Wow, Andy, what a great post. I too was tempted to hit the "quote" button several times but held off.

When I was a beginner and intermediate, I stayed with the piano because my passion was encouraged and supported. Posting an advanced recording here seems to be me to be counter to that spirit so I don't. I pop into ABF occasionally but usually refrain from posting unless I have something helpful to offer.

PC can indeed be a nasty place but I learn a lot there. ABF is very friendly but I don't feel comfortable discussing or posting advanced music here. I guess what I am saying is, I'm not fully comfortable in either place so I tread lightly and carefully in both.

As far as recitals are concerned, I don't think there is any harm in PC having more. Just realize, posting in a PC recital may open you to more criticism and some of it may not be friendly. Posting in a ABF recital seems to be more about sharing the joy of music.

Originally Posted by gooddog
....snip......
When I was a beginner and intermediate, I stayed with the piano because my passion was encouraged and supported. Posting an advanced recording here seems to be me to be counter to that spirit so I don't. I pop into ABF occasionally but usually refrain from posting unless I have something helpful to offer.

PC can indeed be a nasty place but I learn a lot there. ABF is very friendly but I don't feel comfortable discussing or posting advanced music here. I guess what I am saying is, I'm not fully comfortable in either place so I tread lightly and carefully in both.

As far as recitals are concerned, I don't think there is any harm in PC having more. Just realize, posting in a PC recital may open you to more criticism and some of it may not be friendly. Posting in a ABF recital seems to be more about sharing the joy of music.


Underlining mine. Goodog, this is one of the most succinct statements of the difference between PC and ABF I've read. IMO, there's a place for both and obviously an audience for both. People seem to sort out for themselves which serves them best (and a lucky few move easily between the two).
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by gooddog
...As far as recitals are concerned, I don't think there is any harm in PC having more. Just realize, posting in a PC recital may open you to more criticism and some of it may not be friendly. Posting in a ABF recital seems to be more about sharing the joy of music.


Underlining mine. Goodog, this is one of the most succinct statements of the difference between PC and ABF I've read. IMO, there's a place for both and obviously an audience for both. People seem to sort out for themselves which serves them best (and a lucky few move easily between the two).


Well, people in PC are quite passionate about the music and find great joy in it but if you don't play it very, very well they won't hesitate to tell you so. Most of the time, it's done kindly and constructively. Occasionally...well, let's put it this way, PC has some people with very strong opinions, a few who enjoy being contrary and a some who are, uh, for lack of a better word, mean. frown But most are really well educated and quite nice. Just choose your words carefully and put on your thick skin. There's a lot to be gained there.
And now, I think I've made my decision not to post in either place. I posted the 28/24 in defiance of my best friend (a very well trained pianist) who thought it too flashy for ABF and not well played enough to be posted at all. I felt a certain heady achievement at the time but nothing but misgivings since. Everyone who commented on my piece was kindness itself but I hesitate to strain the general good nature a second time. Thanks to you all and good luck.
After reading the current batch of posts, I had a few more thoughts to share, with piano_deb's comment as a springboard this time:

Originally Posted by piano_deb
[...] I've generally found the discussions in there [Pianist Corner] whizzing around well above my head and so I don't feel capable of contributing -- but one of these days I hope to get enough theory and technique under my belt to at least do some useful lurking. wink


Remember when you were first learning how to play softball in grade school? Didn't it seem like every time you went to bat, or every time you ran the bases, or every time you took the field, there was some new rule you'd never heard before that suddenly came into play? "You have to tag up!" "What?" "TAG UP!!!" "What's that?" LOL! laugh This is how I look at Pianist Corner. I mean, in the recent Mazurka recital thread, I learned a new word. It is "fioritura." I have been happily playing fioritura for years, but I never new it had a name! grin Now, I can say, fioritura instead of dipsy doodle! (Although I reserve the right to say "dipsy doodle," especially in Pianist Corner, and most expressly on purpose, to cut through fuddeeduddiness.) I cannot tell you, piano_deb, how many things I have learned by reading threads in Pianist Corner, things that my swiss cheese education did not give me. And, I've cut some teeth chewing on ideas in certain threads I felt compelled to respond to (or start!), and I've been embarrassed a few times at things that I wrote (and recordings I've posted!). But I wouldn't take it back for the world. I was embarrassed when I threw to 3rd when I should have thrown to 2nd, too, that one day... So, piano_deb, lurk to your heart's content! Lurk and learn to play the game! wink

Anyway, regarding comments to recordings in Pianist Corner, here are some observations that goodog's post prompted me to think about.

1) Comments made in e-cital threads tend to be very convivial.

2) Comments made in Member Recordings (or in original recordings posted on the main board (an etiquette no-no, apparently, although generally gracefully welcomed, especially by the occasional newbie who doesn't know about Member Recordings) tend to elicit a wide range of responses, thus:

2a) Some responses tend to judge the performance against some kind of an ideal, no matter how new or advanced the performer seems to be. Perfection, observation of tradition, evidence of musical understanding, and good taste are the standards. Pretty high standards. Often, these responses include a YouTube link to a virtuoso performance or two or three. Nothing like rubbing it in! LOL!

2b) Some responses tend to acknowledge a sliding scale of development by listening carefully to what can be heard of the performer's technique. Thoughtful help often follows, with a catalog of strengths and suggestions for things to address and ways to address them. Sometimes that help includes a YouTube link to a virtuoso performance. LOL! But context and presentation of the critique makes a tremendous difference, and some people can share this kind of thing without making it seem like they are rubbing your nose in anything. crazy

2c) Some responses tend to serve to bolster the ego of the critic, showcasing their knowledge about a certain subject or piece. That is not to say that there aren't some very knowledgeable people who share very freely some very fine points, and share well-developed reasons for those points, too. Those kinds of posts are wonderful when they happen. The "look how much I know" posts are different, though. You know them when you see them.

2d) Some responses are soapboxes for the critic to espouse some kind of artistic philosophy.

2e) Sometimes, a bar fight from another thread on the main board will spill into a recording thread.

Some threads are a mix of all of these, especially ones with the word "Chopin" in the title. wink Plus, there is always drive-by inanity. (Done my share of that, too! wink blush )

From the point of view of receiving criticism, I get the sense from reading in Pianist Corner (and a very rich PM correspondence with several Piano World online friends) that at some point, or at some level, learning to give and receive specific criticism is a very important part of the musical endeavor. And when you get to the point of public performance, receiving criticism simply comes with the territory. And always, you can take it or leave it! cool

Seriously, if you have never poked around in Pianist Corner-Member Recordings, I'd encourage you to take some time to do so. There are some very interesting discussions and some very wonderful recordings in there. There's lots to listen to, and many things that are very inspirational from a learning standpoint. I hope this little "Field Guide To The Comments" might help you enjoy your time exploring Member Recordings and making sense of it if you've never been in there before. smile

Lastly, -Frycek, I hope you'll reconsider about sharing or not. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I feel like it's our loss, though. Authentic performances are precious and rare.

Kindest regards, everyone!
--Andy

Originally Posted by -Frycek
And now, I think I've made my decision not to post in either place. I posted the 28/24 in defiance of my best friend (a very well trained pianist) who thought it too flashy for ABF and not well played enough to be posted at all. I felt a certain heady achievement at the time but nothing but misgivings since. Everyone who commented on my piece was kindness itself but I hesitate to strain the general good nature a second time. Thanks to you all and good luck.


If you want to share your music, then you only hurt yourself by not participating. There is no more supportive and accepting online recital than the ABF quarterly recital.
Sam

Quote
If you want to share your music, then you only hurt yourself by not participating. There is no more supportive and accepting online recital than the ABF quarterly recital.
Sam


I know that, Sam. I'm not after hurting anyone. There's not a nicer bunch anywhere than here. That's no excuse for me to impose my half baked attempts at musicianship on your very good collective natures. I just felt I owed ya'll an explanation for my non--participation after the totally unnecessary fuss I just caused with this thread. I'm very sorry I brought it up.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
And now, I think I've made my decision not to post in either place. I posted the 28/24 in defiance of my best friend (a very well trained pianist) who thought it too flashy for ABF and not well played enough to be posted at all. I felt a certain heady achievement at the time but nothing but misgivings since. Everyone who commented on my piece was kindness itself but I hesitate to strain the general good nature a second time. Thanks to you all and good luck.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, and hope you will reconsider in the future. In the meantime, I think that many of us in ABF will miss hearing you play.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
I know that, Sam. I'm not after hurting anyone. There's not a nicer bunch anywhere than here. That's no excuse for me to impose my half baked attempts at musicianship on your very good collective natures. I just felt I owed ya'll an explanation for my non--participation after the totally unnecessary fuss I just caused with this thread. I'm very sorry I brought it up.


Well, if *you* think your attempts are half-baked I guess there's nothing we can do about it. I think it's not fair if your assumption is that *we* think they're half-baked and are therefore somehow being imposed on. Or, that we think they're half-baked and are covering up our opinions. Or something. I think our opinions are more honest than that.

I think if people say *brava* they mean it. It is not likely they think you're a pro when they say it. But whatever it is they say they have found in your music, they've found it. If it bothers *you* that you're music isn't to what *you* think is a public standard I understand if you don't share it. I respect your right to do or not do that. We all have our own internal limits.

But it's really not fair to assume we're "imposed" on. That's for us to decide, eh? And if we say "brava" or whatever we say about your music, that opinion is to be respected, too, as an honest opinion.

So don't post or do post depending on what it does for *you*. And at least I'll understand that.

But whether or not it's *imposing* if you do share is up to us to decide - it's not your provenance laugh

And if people are even more positive and say they miss your music, you have to respect that, too. They're telling the truth. That doesn't mean you have to share it. It just means that your reasons for not doing so have to do with your own feelings about your music. Not the demonstrated responses to your music from here. It may well be, and I suspect it is, that people aren't just being nice, but that they actually find your music enjoyable. Maybe not for the reasons you wish it were enjoyable, but for very honest reasons, and as music.

So there's no imposing going on. If someone doesn't want to listen to your music they can always skip it.

Just my view, of course - I'm on an irrascible kick over the last couple of days.

Cathy
@Andy - Cinnamonbear,

Another great post. I love your reference to your "swiss cheese" education because I completely identify with it. (Today was the second time I had to look up fioritura and my knowledge of theory is pathetic.)

I really want to emphasize how much there is to learn in PC. When I first joined PW I knew nothing but note reading. Now I know a little more and I attribute most of it to the folks at PC. The majority are terrific people, polite, knowledgeable and nice. You just have to ignore the jerks. So ABF guys and gals, please come on over to PC. A few more nice folks would be a terrific addition. Yes, as Andy said, there are bar fights but it's easy to duck the flying chairs by choosing what topics you participate in and whom you play with.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
And now, I think I've made my decision not to post in either place. I posted the 28/24 in defiance of my best friend (a very well trained pianist) who thought it too flashy for ABF and not well played enough to be posted at all. I felt a certain heady achievement at the time but nothing but misgivings since. Everyone who commented on my piece was kindness itself but I hesitate to strain the general good nature a second time. Thanks to you all and good luck.


Hi Frycek, I hope you post your work here or in PC when you are ready. You are a fine player. I also think this thread is a good one. It gave chance to discuss about PC and reaffirm what defies ABF and its unique need. Good to read everyone's comments. Thank you for your insight. I think and hope we can get to hear your music again.

Thanks Deborah! It's always good to hear from you as well. I can also relate to the "Swiss cheese" education mentioned earlier. Frankly this has been a very good discussion. I've gained a lot more understanding of what is useful about both forums.

Cathy, thanks for pointing out the difference between not playing for others because the *we* feel the work is inadequate and not playing because we assume that *others* will find it inadequate. That's a very good point for all of us in ABF to keep in mind. No matter how far short of our goals we may fall, others can still find beauty and skill and courage in the attempt, and we shouldn't blame them if we choose not to put ourselves forward.

Andy, I appreciate the pro-lurking advice. smile Thanks in large part to this dicussion, I have been hanging out in the PC shadows rather often lately. It's a bit like sitting at the kid's table but eavesdropping on the adult conversations, lol.
Originally Posted by piano_deb
[...] Andy, I appreciate the pro-lurking advice. smile Thanks in large part to this dicussion, I have been hanging out in the PC shadows rather often lately. It's a bit like sitting at the kid's table but eavesdropping on the adult conversations, lol.


LOL!! And isn't it interesting when, as a "kid," you begin to notice that your own behavior and online demeanor is more mature than the "grown-ups?" laugh I think you are ready for the big table. wink A lot can be learned by asking one "simple" question! grin
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Maybe I'm overreacting (a specialty of mine!) but I fear this may result in graded recitals. I feel that most of us here might prefer that particular can of worms remain closed.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...ion_-_a_different_type_.html#Post2212277


I wouldn't want graded recitals either but fortunately it's not likely to become a trend. In that thread it seems like most people are not interested in that.

I've always been involved at the PC forum but I think it's just how I stumbled onto Piano World many years ago. Even now I would call myself an amateur of intermediate level but I do most of my posting over there. I'm trying to read more threads over here too but just haven't had the time. I might try to join in the next quarterly (or the one after that).

Reading this thread reminded me that I did participate in one of the recitals here in the past. I had to do a search to find out that it was Recital #4 in 2006. It's too bad the files aren't available because I wanted to hear myself from 7 years ago.
"Yes, as Andy said, there are bar fights but it's easy to duck the flying chairs by choosing what topics you participate in and whom you play with."

It`d be fun to throw a few . . .and THEN duck! grin
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
2) Comments made in Member Recordings (or in original recordings posted on the main board (an etiquette no-no, apparently, although generally gracefully welcomed, especially by the occasional newbie who doesn't know about Member Recordings) tend to elicit a wide range of responses, thus:

2a) Some responses tend to judge the performance against some kind of an ideal, no matter how new or advanced the performer seems to be. Perfection, observation of tradition, evidence of musical understanding, and good taste are the standards. Pretty high standards. Often, these responses include a YouTube link to a virtuoso performance or two or three. Nothing like rubbing it in! LOL!

2b) Some responses tend to acknowledge a sliding scale of development by listening carefully to what can be heard of the performer's technique. Thoughtful help often follows, with a catalog of strengths and suggestions for things to address and ways to address them. Sometimes that help includes a YouTube link to a virtuoso performance. LOL! But context and presentation of the critique makes a tremendous difference, and some people can share this kind of thing without making it seem like they are rubbing your nose in anything. crazy

2c) Some responses tend to serve to bolster the ego of the critic, showcasing their knowledge about a certain subject or piece. That is not to say that there aren't some very knowledgeable people who share very freely some very fine points, and share well-developed reasons for those points, too. Those kinds of posts are wonderful when they happen. The "look how much I know" posts are different, though. You know them when you see them.

2d) Some responses are soapboxes for the critic to espouse some kind of artistic philosophy.

2e) Sometimes, a bar fight from another thread on the main board will spill into a recording thread.

Some threads are a mix of all of these, especially ones with the word "Chopin" in the title. wink Plus, there is always drive-by inanity. (Done my share of that, too! wink blush )

From the point of view of receiving criticism, I get the sense from reading in Pianist Corner (and a very rich PM correspondence with several Piano World online friends) that at some point, or at some level, learning to give and receive specific criticism is a very important part of the musical endeavor. And when you get to the point of public performance, receiving criticism simply comes with the territory. And always, you can take it or leave it! cool

This is genius. You are very astute Cinnamonbear. Should be a sticky post in Member Recordings smile
Whatever the purpose of the recital is, whether to the originators and administrators or to the other participants and listeners, there is no indication from any recent comment that any contribution has been unwelcome, unnecessary, too professional, too poor or just shouldn't be included. If the first few bars or seconds do not interest the listener enough to hear the whole there's plenty more on offer for them to move onto without wasting much time. It puts no-one out to have it included.

There's plenty of room for any and all submissions, there's no entry requirement and, to my knowledge, no exclusions.
Quote
The primary purpose of the recitals is to allow AB forum members to provide a snapshot of where they are in their piano journey at that particular point in time.
ABF Forum members, nothing more and nothing less. If anyone wants to hear a professional recording they have YouTube as well as their own collections. What I want to hear from these recitals is where I stand against my peers, fellow amateurs, however long they've been playing or however far they've progressed. I want to see how far I've come, how much of my old self I can recognise from the other performances and most important of all how much can be achieved by an amateur like myself.

The two things I treasure the most from these recitals are 1) the motivation to rekindle pieces that are played better than me by pianists with less experience than me and 2) the focus on my current pieces knowing they will be heard by others. It challenges me to do better. Nothing else come close for drive and attention to detail.

If I want to hear Argerich or Pogorelich I can load up my mp3 player, pop in a CD or visit YouTube. It's great to be able to hear a virtuoso performance. But I could never play like that. Would I enjoy playing those pieces if I couldn't match them?

Originally Posted by -Frycek
I just felt I owed ya'll an explanation for my non--participation...
I've listened to your Prelude 24, -Frycek, more times in the last two months than I have Martha Argerich or Howard Shelley. Not only can I listen to it and enjoy recognising it, I can be inspired by it to attempt it myself. Martha can't inspire me like that because I could never reach that level.

However much worth you put on your own contribution I value it, I respect it and I thank you for it.

I would also value entries from other 'beyond beginners' that regularly participate in the ABF forum and that contribute to the themed recitals.

Originally Posted by zrtf90


Originally Posted by -Frycek
I just felt I owed ya'll an explanation for my non--participation...
I've listened to your Prelude 24, -Frycek, more times in the last two months than I have Martha Argerich or Howard Shelley. Not only can I listen to it and enjoy recognising it, I can be inspired by it to attempt it myself. Martha can't inspire me like that because I could never reach that level.

However much worth you put on your own contribution I value it, I respect it and I thank you for it.

I would also value entries from other 'beyond beginners' that regularly participate in the ABF forum and that contribute to the themed recitals.



Richard, that's quite the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my playing. Thank you. I feel like having it engraved on a plaque or something. smile
© Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums