A little while back I went for my research to one of the Music Colleges and I saw a young girl sitting there. I noticed her because she looked very miserable and lost and I felt sorry for her. We started whispering to each other in the library about our research on music and I told her that I just started the piano from scratch as a hobby and that I was researching on some “Urtexts”.

Perhaps I sounded a bit enthusiastic, because all of a sudden she said to me: “You are very lucky because you can still appreciate music...”
I was quite startled about her comment and I did not comprehend. But her comment still haunts me.

When I prepared breakfast this morning, I listened to the radio and the news reader said that serious abuse has been reported on children as young as 10 years old in the Yehudi Menuhin School of Music.

Nigel Kennedy confirmed this allegation and added that he felt privileged to have been to the Yehudi Menuhin School of Music, but he certainly was not happy there... and a female musician, who had originally started at the Yehudi Menuhin School as a gifted young child explained how she was regularly abused at night by a conductor (she mentioned his name, but I was too shocked to register...)... and he "visited" her bed regularly at night to abuse her. Apparently she was completely petrified and her life has been messed-up ever since.

The newsreader said that five other UK Music Schools are also involved in such allegations and are being investigated...

I had always thought that music is sacrosanct and I can’t quite comprehend what I was told in the news today...
and I wonder what you think and/or what your experiences are?

Kristina.

There were always rumours about it tbh, and my father and a number of others had heard such rumours about a certain school. He always wanted me to be a top class viola player.

Two left hands and a burglary when I was young prevented this from happening as the viola was stolen.

However abusing ones power and position is unfortunately human nature (Stanford experiment)

I remember in my secondary school there were two who there were rumours about (and they were not male teachers), rumours about trading sex for grades. I'd gone to university before it blew up and one of the victims ended up stabbing the abuser.


My feeling is it is different now, I have a ton of ECRBs when I work for educational establishments. In fact there might be a feeling it has gone too far. As in a certain FE college I was warned never to step out of the gaze of the CCTV, looking at the ceiling there are ominous black CCTV domes everywhere.

The biggest problem there that's come to light was at Chetham; a former director of music and his wife were recently convicted of abuse. Sadly the victim committed suicide earlier this year.

Sharing a common interest/hobby/career with someone, no matter what it is, does not mean you have the same morals, values or personality. It is nothing to do with the type of school.
There were 5 convicted male paedophiles at my high school plus a local parish priest.
I remember a social worker telling us during a child protection course, that people with ill intent towards children try to get involved wherever children are, so it is schools, nurseries, churches, etc. It does not by any means make all people who work with kids dangerous, but simply the abusive type flock to where their prey are. CRB checks only reveal if they have been caught, but they are better than nothing.

The problem is that you have two separate topics. One of them is abuse. The other is the kind of teaching which makes a child say that you are lucky that you can still enjoy music. both are problems, but they are different.

Indeed. On the first one consensus is much easier to form.

This was also this MUSIC TEACHER, is this trait peculiar to British Music Schools?

And that one is back to the other topic.

This is terrible news - I thought at least music would be sacred.
We obviously are not as civilised as we think we are

There are people from all walks of life that abuse from parents, brothers and sisters, the pastor - anyone. Children abuse other children everywhere. It has absolutely nothing to do with music, or race, education, culture, age, colour.

We can be a viscious species. All you have to do is read the comments following any sort of controversial news story. The nastiness just pours out, the thirst for vengence, the self righteousness, the drive for self justification. We as a society can't decide whether we'd rather demonize the accused or blame the victim. And our "statesmen" who should be the soul of maturity, rationality and balance are the worst of all.
Much of the barbarism in public life today comes from the top down.

There's a lot of nasty people about both male and female.

Thankfully there's also loads of really nice caring generous folk too, but they don't make good news stories.

Thinking back to my schooldays in the seventies, there was one female teacher a fair few male pupils slept with although they were all glad of the experience at the time.

The male music teacher used to spend every music lesson telling us x rated jokes and playing any punk music he could find with the f word in (and he was head of music). He also introduced us to Derek and Clive and I must have heard nearly every recording they made in his lessons (very very very crude).

Meanwhile my wife at the nearby school is on a school trip and one of the PE (physical education/sports) teachers told her he had a bet with another teacher that he could get her into bed before the trip was over. She was 15. He failed.

And sadly I could go on and on and on but I won't.

This is the part that nobody is addressing, yet since we are studying music, shouldn't it matter a fair bit?

A one time meeting with a child means very little in the overall picture. Looking miserable one day doesn't mean she is usually that way. We all have down days.
If the child doesn't enjoy the school, it doesn't mean the school is bad either, just that children are not robots but humans like the rest of us, and what works for one , doesn't work for another. What we enjoy one year, we can lose interest in another, not necessarily the fault of the teacher or school.
Also the child may simply have meant that it is good an old person (in their eyes) can still appreciate music.

The child did not say she didn't enjoy school. She said that she can no longer appreciate music. Kristina1 may well have run into a side of music study when it is done to push young music students into (the possibility of) a virtuoso career, that can take the joy out of music. It doesn't have to be done that way, but in places it is. If you are an adult hobbyist, with your teachers knowing this, you won't be pushed that way, and you can enjoy the ride. I suspect that this is what the young student meant. It doesn't have to be actual abuse such as beating, yelling, or the extreme of sexual abuse.

Also, there is a side to music that can be both rigid and authoritarian. Some still have that mentality, especially if they think a child is gifted and they can "make something" out of that child. Ambition can also rear its ugly head in the wrong way.

It can also involve something that is not ugly per se, but when a young student is pushed to perfection, and starts seeing what actually is involved, and how far they still have to go. As you advance in music, your hearing (nuances and elements in music) refines itself so that while once you were blissfully unaware and played happily away, now you hear every flaw (which may also be pointed out to you) and the enjoyment may take a nose dive. Not being pushed that way, the adult may not have that reality --- or the child may think that is so.

Thank you all very much for your answers and your thoughts.

I do hope you are right and the two issues I have mentioned are as different as has been suggested...

Whilst I had a talk with this girl at the library of the College (sorry that I have not made this point clear enough: the College is for young students who study there instead of going to University...) ... she did not seem a person to dramatize; but she talked as if she had been robbed of her future and I think now the two issues might be connected.

I read-up your suggestions and I am quite horrified about the mental and sexual abuse on children/young students in Schools of Music and many other educational establishments.

To be quite honest, I had to stop reading after a while because it became nauseating and overwhelming...
Many of these school children and young students also travel with their teachers/lecturers to Concentration Camps to “get an idea” about some of the horrors of another barbaric age - and then the same school children/young students travel back to their schools/Colleges etc. to face their own horrors of mental and sexual abuse again every day of the week... the hypocrisy of it!

I am very surprised that the music industry has not investigated these issues?

After all, the music industry is mainly about money and there is no money to be made from empty seats in Concert Halls and people also don’t really buy music on offer anymore...

The music-loving public have their instincts and feelings about performances and recordings - and they have noticed a long while ago, that despite perfect technicalities, feelings and emotions are often missing in performances and recordings of music and something has seriously gone wrong. All those empty Concert Hall seats must have given the music industry some good indication? We all know of course, that our “computer-age” can’t be always blamed ...

I think empty concert seats have more to do with cost than lack of good performance. A recent concert cost us as much again for car parking, as it did for the tickets themselves, not to mention cost of meal beforehand as it was a schoolnight and we had to travel straight from work. The meal was worth it, the ticket price was worth the performance, but the car parking was ridiculous, especially as we were charged for standing more than half an hour in the queue at the machine waiting to pay. It is this car parking cost that limits the amount of concerts we can realistically attend, not the availability of good performances.

Kristina1, when you say "girl", what age are you talking about? I picture 8 or 9 years old, but if this is college instead of university, do you mean teens?

How interesting that only schools of music have been primarily mentioned, what about the music industry in the 60's 70's on ( and probably earlier) Jimmy saville, jimmy tarbuck, Gary Glitter, mr. deputy speaker etc etc. The catholic church.

There is actually a program on radio2 as i type this, with women and I want to make this clear: WOMEN, who are coming on the show and saying that in the seventies when they went to work they could not walk accross the car park without getting their bum groped etc, on a daily basis with all the guys wolf whistling etc etc etc.

They are clearly stating that back then this was the "norm" and that we cannot judge today by yesterdays standards.

Furthermore, there is a women Barrister on the show who goes further, she says that "gropes" back in the seventies that are being prosecuted now are Trivialising the more serious crimes of rape and abduction and rape.

She has stated that and I quote: "if a women who had her breast felt back in the seventies is still alledegdly "traumatised" by it forty years on, then she has some sort of problem that did not originate from something as minor as a grope"

These are a female barristers words not mine, make no mistake about that!!

What she is apparently getting at is that most girls/women in the sixties /seventies have been touched up in some way that was not solicitated, and today would be deemed "innapropriate" BUT, if that happens to be by a celebrity, and the media finds out about it, then they will run with it.

when asked by jeremy vine, "so if you had brought your daughter in and I put my hand up her skirt , what would you do?"

The female barrister said " I would have strong words with you and tell you off, but I wouldnt bother the police"

Her reasoning again was that compared to rape and other serious offences it was "trivial"

Again , may I just reiterate, this was all said on the show by the guests and callers, not me!!!

BBC radio 2 jeremy vine show at 1.00 pm onwards 10/05 2013.

As an aside in victorian times the age of consent was 12, and parliament voted against raising that on many occasions.... it seems some there still dont know its been changed.

Abuse is not confined to the music industry OR music schools it seems endemic throughout all walks of life, it takes no account of social status or class or creed or culture.

Here is an interesting and thought provoking factoid:

In clinical studies of Rats , the rats , given enough space, behaved in a way deemed "normal" for rats. In other words , they paired up and bred.

When more rats were introduced into the same limited space, something unexpected happened; the rats started to exhibit "homosexual traits" It appears that somewhere in their brains they knew it wasnt advantageous to bring even more offspring into the given space, and turned their sexual activity towards something that would not do this.

Given that science says we are very close to rats: ( thats how our medicines are tested etc etc)

Could it be that in this totally overcrowded world were folk are living on top of each other in a completely unnatural way, that something is actually changing humans behavioural patterns and making them behave in weird ways?

As a survivor I would completely disagree. Informing the police of a grope is not in any way trivialising rape. It is helping prevent the attitude that it is okay to touch someone without permission. Indeed the culture where this was the norm, was flawed , because it was not criminal then, doesn't mean it should not have been. Allowing and trivialising gropes etc. fosters the same attitude of rape and abuse, that the wishes of the other person is somehow less than the person who takes what doesn't belong to them.
I have always felt threatened and humiliated by wolf whistling workmen. A whole floor of female workers refused to enter the store room, because of the behaviour of the men in a well known department store, before the management took action. So I know many women agree with me, it is not flattering but humiliating.
I suspect a good many men feel the same. I would never pinch a guy's rear end. It is invasion of his personal space and degrading.
I agree with you on one point , this is not a music school issue alone, but a much wider issue.

I too think it's very unwise to trust a brief encounter with a discouraged student as evidence of some deep-seated problem with music schools. Exam season is approaching, students in every subject can get stressed. A sample of one is exactly that, a sample of one.

"I have always felt threatened and humiliated by wolf whistling workmen . . ."

There`s many a plain lass would`ve love to have heard that sound! . . .most ladies had no trouble enduring it. But it is funny when you get a bunch of guys eyeing up a smart mover. She knows it; far too sophisticated to associate or acknowledge them. Not even a sideways glance.

Then she stumbles . . . .can`t handle her killer heels! Nor the laughter . . .

There`s a delicious tension between male/female. Always has been. It`s called Life!

Just my thoughts. I don`t do a lot of it . . . .(thinking that is)

And you've had that experience as a woman, peterws, so you know?

I worked in a factory paint spraying the final product.
I was 21.
The women in the factory who made the product were mainly in their forties and fifties.
They all sat or stood at their individual machines and did just one part of the process.

Sometimes, i had to go onto the shop floor with a trolley to collect these parts to take to the spray shop and paint, ready for distribution.

The walk with the trolley accross the shop floor through all these women, allways resulted in my bum being groped , sexual comments towards me and open comments such as "come on girls lets hold him down and get his clothes off"

At the time ( and now I thought it was funny) I know one lad called by the women "Miami mark" ( because of his loud shirts) who was a little petrified of these Predatorial couugers.

However, one could say what is good for the goose is also good for the gander, and therefore I have as much right to go and complain about these women and what is now regarded as their"unaccaptable" behaviour.

Except, that some will now be dead and the others very elderly pensioners, and they were just products of their time, what they were doing was the norm, and for most of the guys in the factory it was funny to see newbies legging it from the more "kruger" of the cougers.

The other thing was that no one ever thought of complaining, because (a.) you just didnt, and (b.) in a mill town in lancashire if you was seen running from the attention of women, you may well get labelled gay, and at that time, in that factory like many others, your life would not be worth living if you got labelled gay. In effect you wouldnt be able to work there anymore.

Thats just the way it was.

If the "girls" at the factory wore a new miniskirt, or new shoes and didnt get wolf whistled at, they wouldnt wear those items of clothing again t work.

Its just the way it was.

"Kruger"?

What does that mean?

Ya know, it was that way in the 70s. It was that way in the 60s, too. And probably worse earlier. And the fact that we, both male and female, woke up and figured out that maybe it shouldn't be that way is, to me any way, a good thing. I think there was some of it that was about power, and some about ignorance, at least looking back on my own experiences. I think the fact that males had problems with it too is way too often ignored. I know some with those experiences.

I think knowing "that's the way it was" should be something to learn from.

And, as others have said, music schools aren't any more immune than anywhere else.

My 2 cents, but I've been cranky for a couple of days now -

Cathy

sorry my bad i spelt it wrong , it should have read Krueger, as in Freddy krueger,

I invented that ages ago as a term for the not so ahem,attractive cougers.

I've worked in a couple of places where 90% + were women and I was the minority man. My experiances are very similar.

Your "what's good for the goose..." Comment I agree with 100% and it seems that in society, a man has no right to complain.

There's the South Park episode where one of the kids goes to the police and tells them his brother is having sex with a teacher. A swarm of police officers surround him, notepads out, asking what this teachers name is.

But when he says a woman's name, they completely change and say "nice"

Sadly that's very representative of society.

I'm keeping this as clean as I can, a few examples I can think of. I was at a friends party years ago. There was a girl there, must have been around 19 to 21, a very sweet innocent looking attractive girl, not some blonde bimbo (appologies to any blondes, my wife is also blond, just trying to describe the sort of girl she was). She wasn't tarty.

She had a couple of drinks and turned into a man eater. My wife had left the party a bit earlier due to work the next day.

This girl had "fun" with a couple of men but hassled many many more. I told her politely to leave me alone, I was happily with someone etc. after about the fith time she tried to put her hands down the front of my pants, I had no choice but phone my wife up and ask her to pick me up just so that I could get away from the girl.

Now imagine the following. Everything's reversed, the girl is happily in a relationship, I keep trying to put my hands where I shouldn't and don't except "no" causing her to have to leave the party.

Two identical cases.

Now imagine if in the second case, she phones the police, tells them I tried to sexually assault her.

Now imagine in the first case, I phone the police and tell them she tried to sexually assault me.

One would lead to my arrest, the other they probably wouldn't even talk to her about, and if they did, they would take one look at the sort of innocent looking girl she is, and that would be that.

I sadly could give you example after example of similar things, the guy I shared an office with having to leave a nightclub due to a girl sexually harassing him, imagine him complaining to the bouncers compared to a girl complaining.

Or the party where some bloke was being a stereotypical boastful male and a group of girls decided to strip him to see if he was telling the truth, now imagine if a group of men did this to a female.

I also know numerous men who lost their virginity from 13 to 15 (underage) to women over the age of consent, and often over by 15+ years.

Of course the groping that went on on the past was totally wrong, whether it was accepted by society or not (just like slavery was always wrong even when it was accepted by most of society as the norm). And I'm in no way condoning the celebrities that seem to be arrested almost daily in the UK at the moment, but part of me feels they are taking things a little too far. I'm not talking about those that groomed very young girls, I'm talking about the rest.

Or to put it another way, I've been with my wife for 30 years, married for 21 and I have never been unfaithful to her once. But could I honestly say if I was a celeb in the 60s and 70s that if a load of pretty girls turned up at my dressing room door, while I was caught up in the stardom etc (and probably in those days drugs too) I would have demanded to see their birth certificates, or would I have welcomed them in and had my hands all over then.

Who knows, but a part of me suspects that if I had been a star then, I might be very nervous now.

And the police in the UK haven't started on the music industry yet, I would be very surprised if at the height of their fame, high on drugs etc say members of the Beatles hadn't at one point or another slept with say a 15 year old.

Again I want to make it clear I'm not talking about those that groomed very young girls, or those that forced themselves on any aged girls against their will, I'm simply saying that I used to go to gigs in my youth, I've seen girls 14+ literally throw themselves at band members and I personally don't see that in the same way as rape, yet I worry what we have now is such girls coming out of the woodwork, jumping on the band wagon so to speak.

The alternative is that almost every star from my youth was a rapist, something that would be very sad if it was true.

This thread is about CHILDREN who are getting training in MUSIC, especially in elite situations. The last I heard, children came in at least two genders. Why is anyone talking about male vs. female victims in the workplace?

Threads evolve. Someone saying they feel uncomfortable being wolf whistled leads to people giving their view from their perspective.

As does them saying the women were scared to go into the store room due to the actions of men.

I am a man and I know many men are awful specimens of the human race, but so are many women. Many many men and women are decent members of the human race and these sorts of threads always points to just the men being the evil ones and a couple of us were simply giving things from what we experience in life.

No one is trying to take things away from discussing the horrible things those poor kids went through.

Its a valid point that it works with both genders.
There have been too many female teachers caught grooming teenage boys too.
The workplace scenario is clarifying the attitudes that were around in earlier years ( and still prevail in some cases) . Those attitudes and the lack of people standing up and complaining about it and taking action. We did in our workplace, and management acted immediately. I would hope any male member of staff would have reacted the same way. Putting up with that attitude of I will touch what I like, make unwanted advances and sexual comments, created the atmosphere where grooming could begin and victims were too scared to speak up incase they were dismissed and told not to overreact. I agree what is wrong for the goose is wrong for the gander.

Does full time education in any subject rob the student of joy in the subject ? Yes for some the formality is too much, the intensity overpowering. For others, it is a dream come true. I repeat what I said earlier. One short meeting, on one day is not a true picture of any person's mood. Feeling or rather looking miserable one day does not mean the love of music has been stolen completely.

"This thread is about CHILDREN who are getting training in MUSIC, especially in elite situations. The last I heard, children came in at least two genders. Why is anyone talking about male vs. female victims in the workplace?"

We can get back to that!

I sometimes think that Britain was a very strange and not un-wonderful place in the 60`s and 70`s. Maybe 80`s too. Bad things happened, but most of us had a lot of fun. And we laughed.

Things weren`t as bad as they`re made out to be. The girls were as bad as the fellas (or as good as) . . they were good days!

Surely it was the same in the States? maybe not . . .

An interesting thing along this side issue: yesterday I was looking up some things for music history (Romans - Clovis) and ended up at a documentary on the Middle Ages done in Britain. It traced the history of a "villaine" called Christine. The villains had land dotted around the aristocratic holdings, and had to travel from one to the other to eke out their living, and they had to pay the lord a portion before they ever got to eat themselves, for the privilege. At that time they were also starting to sell things on the market. This, however, was tracing the lot of women of that class at that time. It was quite interesting.

Her father had two sons and one daughter. He bequeathed some of the property to his daughter so that she could have some independence and choices in life. Women brewed ale, which was a staple, and she could sell that ale in the market, where she had also been given a place by her father. The property also gave her a greater choice in terms of a husband, since it increased her value as a potential wife. A generation earlier, a widow named (Anne?) was deprived of her property after her husband's death because of the edict that a husband rules his wife. But that didn't happen with Christine.

Christine bequeathed property to her daughter, and the ale house she got stands today in England, as a Chinese restaurant. (!) Christine married a second time, and when this husband died, they tried to deprive her of her property (gobble it up as lands for aristocracy or the church) and she fought it in court, and won. All of this during the "Dark Ages".

Among other things I learned that the peasants may have been illiterate, but they were skilled in numerous areas where nowadays you'd probably get some kind of certificate or diploma (and maybe be less skilled). Brewing ale in itself was complex and had to be done right, since official "ale tasters" tested quality. These peasants also had to be knowledgeable in law, rules, and regulations. Christine's father's actions attest to that, and her own actions show the same. You could almost say that in a sense, husband and wife, brothers and sisters, were all skilled professionals working side by side, but not being recompensed properly for it.

Sorry for the OT to OT. I'm not sure why I'm sharing it, but maybe it gives some insight into where we're coming from (if we're from European heritage). Anyway, I was fascinated.

Thank you very much again for your kind replies and thoughts.

Dulcetta, I do agree, the UK-prices for parking tickets to go to concert etc. have become very unreasonable and extremely greedy.

keystring, the girl I talked to at the library of the Music College must have been around 18 - 21 years old. I started talking with her because she looked so lost and miserable and I felt sorry and wondered if I could be of any help...

Rostosky, I must admit that I don’t watch television and all these names i.e. Saville, Tarbuck etc. don’t mean much to me. I have heard about the accusations against these people and it sounds horrific. I wonder how all this sexual abuse could go on, unnoticed by the employees of the BBC or NHS hospitals and why the sexual abuse could carry on for so many decades despite many complaints by abused children and their parents to the police, the BBC and many other authorities?

…What the female barrister mentioned is interesting and I seem to have had good luck so far (touch wood), because it has not happened to me. I don’t get too upset about whistling etc., but I am very concerned about abuse on NHS-patients by NHS doctors and/or when NHS doctors don’t give a proper NHS health care to vulnerable and sick patients who are often too unwell to “use their elbows” to “fight their way through the system”.
Misuse of power by a group of professionals (NHS doctors) against weak and vulnerable, often helpless NHS patients, disturbs me very much. After all, NHS doctors are being paid enough money to provide a proper NHS health service and abuse on fragile NHS patients should not be allowed to happen…

...I have read that in Victorian times many poverty-stricken parents in the UK felt often forced to either “marry off” or “renting out” their offspring at a very early age (often as young as 11 years old…) and the UK Parliament was forced to “do something about it” … eventually...

Dulcetta, I am sorry for what you went through with the workmen. Fortunately I had no such experience (touch wood) and I don’t know how I would have reacted.

Andy Platt, I don’t think this student girl was discouraged or stressed by oncoming exams or anything like that. I felt very strongly that she had been robbed of her future and she did not even like to be associated with music anymore.

Petersw, I had to smile when I read your apt description about life…

Rostosky, I am so sorry for your experiences in the factory, you also had to handle it in a very careful way, otherwise your life might have been made unbearable; as it was, it must have been awful and I am very sorry…

Jotour, it is true, that Music Schools are not more immune than any other place.
The reason why I brought this up originally is because I am so shocked. I always thought that at least music or anything to do with music is absolutely sacrosanct…

Ojustaboo, sorry about your experience; I have noticed that in recent years a sociological change has taken place and this change makes many males and females not to behave anymore like “traditionally brought up people”.

Ojustaboo and Dulcetta, thanks for pointing out that there are “bad apples” everywhere and your mentioning about “grooming” etc.

peterws, yes, it is true, the thread is about abuse on children, but verything I have been reading about the different points was most interesting and very enlightening; it is also very rare to hear the “male point of view” concerning recent changes in behavior and interacting. Lots of sociological changes have taken place in recent years and people being brought up in a rather “traditional way” (like me), find these changes often very confusing…

keystring, I enjoyed Christine’s story of survival despite a powerful, greedy landlord. It is also interesting to read how her father had worked it all out and how made sure she had a chance to start on her own and make a success of her life. To think that it took place in the Middle Ages is very impressive. It is true, most people at that time were illiterate, but they certainly knew how to survive…

Thank you, for all your thoughts and inputs – and it is true, we have gone away “a bit” from the original thread about abuse on children/students in Music Schools, but all your different points are most interesting to think about and I thank you again, Kristina.