New member second post.
Just looking for opinions on what makes a player a musician.
Does it occur the first time you play a song?
The first time you read music and play a song without a mistake for the first time?

Or do you need to be a paid performer to be classed as a musician.

Interestng question and one that i've also wondered myself. I feel as though it comes with competence. I have been learning for a couple of months, but I definitely don't feel like a musician yet even though piano occupies most of my waking thoughts. I can't yet make any music that I would share as something that others would enjoy listening to. I ask my teacher every week how long before it sounds like music - even when I get it all right it still sounds amateurish and clumsy - hence not yet feeling I am making music.

It doesn't actually matter that much though as long as you enjoy it.

When playing become a major part of your life regardless of skill level...

That would make me one, but I think you have to feel you are one too and I don't yet.

I've played a very long time, but I still don't feel like a musician. A music-MAKER, yes, but not a musician.

My partner is a director and he was giving a seminar to a bunch of local actors. He asked them not about what makes a musician but about what makes an artist. His definition resonates with me.

He says you become an artist when you get the letter.

What letter?

The letter out of nowhere. The private letter that says, "You don't know me but I listened to or watched X, and it really affected me. I play it over and over."

In this day of YouTube, it should be much easier for every one of us to become musicians now. It just takes the persistent application of elbow grease and a little bravery.

At the end of his life, Pavarotti said he was a student. So my aspiration is to be a perpetual student a la Pavarotti.

When you tell your audience "I take requests" and someone shouts out the request, you don't say..next!

One time a caller for a dance phoned another caller about working with the musicians. The first caller asked if the 2nd caller thought it would be alright to call me at that time, 10 PM - would I still be up?

The 2nd caller said, "She's a musician, of course she's still up."

Guess that did it for me

Cathy

When you buy a hat.

I think it occurs the first time you fail to get paid for a gig..

I love the responses so far.
Here's the reason I asked.
I can cook fairly well, but I'm not a "chef".
I built and wired my own home theatre but I'm neither a "carpenter" or an "electrician".

Why? Because when someone asks me what I do for a living, it is definitely not chef, carpenter or electrician.

So for most professions I would have hard time classifying anyone as .....x..... unless they did .......x....... for a living.
High school bands don't get paid, but they're musicians, right?
My teacher can play anything, but has never had a paying gig
Think she'd be offended if someone told her she wasn't a musician?

It's a blurry area and precisely why I asked for other opinions.

I think you become a musician the first time and every time you make music and derive joy from it.I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that.

Every one that picks up an instrument is a musician. The skill level varies. The term professional musician is easier, one that earns a living from playing music (teaching would be separate).

The term real musician can be controversial. Playing with other musicians, reading sheets, improvising, playing by ear, performing live in a group or solo, accompanying singers are all things that musicians do. Someone that can do all that I would consider an accomplished musician. A person that can do one or more, is on the path and can call themselves a musician, though some may not always agree.

Most would not find fault with the term amateur musician, though again, there will be a wide range of skill levels. I like that term, and also use the term amateur songwriter.

The word musician is like the word beginner. Most outside casual observers probably wouldn't call the majority of the ABF recital participants, beginners, even though many are still self identifying themselves with the tag.

They say that you don't ever want to be the boss.

You always want to be second in command because

they always call the boss, manager, "first in

command" out first when something goes wrong.

I said to a friend of mine, well, I am not an

academic. He was a teacher and he said, "if you

think you are an academic, you are an academic."

When people ask me who I am I often say, "I am

just a little guy trying to get by in life."

The term Adult Beginner suggest that the participants are Adults and Beginners but it also suggests those that began in adult life even though they no longer are adults beginners.

I didn't take lessons until I was an adult and I also returned after many years (still as an adult) and this forum has been the source of faster progress (and continuing progress) than any lessons I took earlier in life. It is in this capacity that I feel I am a member of this community. I am trying to give as much back as I have received.

And what are the alternatives? I'll take the Adult Beginners over the Beginner Adults.

If you can substantially entertain an audience or can accompany other musicians, then I think that makes you a musician.

I don't think you have to be a master of your insrument to "be a musican," but I think "musicians" have a sense of musicality that enables them to produce music.

So if you just learn to play chords on the piano and how to phrase them to sound well with other musicians, then even though you might not be able to play advanced piano pieces, you'd be a musician.

If you can sight read simple music pieces and do so for your own pleasure or for the listening pleasure of others, than you are a musician. If the pieces are simple, but you're playing the correct dynamics and with emotion, then I'd consider you a musician.

You can play on you own for years and years, but no musician till you bring pleasure to someone else's ears.

Yes, any and all of the above - but, also you have to join the union...

There's two ends of this spectrum: The soft fuzzy end. From the very first time you draw a bow or pluck a string, you are a musician. You may not be very good, but a musician, all the same.
The other end is the cold hard end of the spectrum. Indeed the card carrying, site reading, all theory knowing, expert, professional. A player's player.
I personally tend to error on the side of caution and humility. Ima fiddle player. Unless, it gets me through the buffett line quicker or, gets me a good parking spot, or in through the backstage door, i don't generally go by the title musician.

Agreed. In fact, I don't think you even have to play an instrument. Many people are musicians with their voices.

Everyone is capable of being expressive through music, but I think the term "musician" has many different levels of musical ability attached to it depending on the person using the term.

Strangely enough, I know many adult students who would not call themselves musicians even though they clearly are, and I think that is a shame.

Too bad the word doesn't use our normal friendly suffix -er for 'one who.' The -ian makes it sound like there are some real qualifications needed.

Like a "musicker"? It might catch on.

I like it!
Maybe "to music" could become a verb too while we're at it.

"I will music at 7:30."

How long do you have to music before you become a musicker?

Maybe this is a semantics thing but I think I prefer the term "a communicator of music" rather than "a musician". There is something too solid and "boxed in" feel to the term "a musician". It also feels to me like too much of a trap set up by our ego, as if we play for people to earn their applause rather than to prioritize liberating them and ourselves through music. Isn't this why we became interested in the first place? Or was it simply another way to land a trophy on our lap like so much of life seems to be about? I prefer to think of music as something grander, something that reaches much farther, something to unite us all and not just another accomplishment to satisfy our insatiable hungry ego.

But musician is easier to say. Let people who hear us play decide if we can communicate .

Back to the original topic of "when" do you become a musician, I recall that a while back there was a thread that tried to describe "what is music".

That did not prove possible, at least in anything resembling a complete description. Some said music is "rhythm", others "sound", and so forth, but to no satisfying end.

I think this question of "when" one becomes a musician is similarly impossible to describe.

Maybe once you've moved beyond focusing primarily on what is written in the score and you begin to explore what is not written in the score?

But I think the demeans all the work that goes into the foundational parts of learning to play an instrument. Certainly, one is a musician then, but perhaps less effective at communicating?

I have played piano all my life. 5 or so years ago I took up jazz. I play almost every day, take lessons, listen all the time, and I have played some paying gigs, and many, many, non paying gigs.

I absolutely DO NOT consider myself a musician. To call myself a musician is to eliminate any distinction between the true professionals who have devoted countless hours and years of their lives to this art form, and who play light years better than I do. If I'm a musician, then what terminology do we have to distinguish my amateur efforts from the efforts of those those who have dedicated their lives to it?

Wow jjo -- you're hardcore...

There are of course "world class musicians", "good musicians" and "mediocre ones", "Pro musicians", "amateur musicians" and "weekend-warriors" , etc. So the label isn't so absolute.

Just add an adjective, a qualifier. The phrase professional musician carries more weight than amateur musician. For raw beginners, aspiring musician. For an advanced amateur, the phrase accomplished musician says a lot to me. To me they are all musicians, though the level of proficiency varies. I would consider all that uploaded pieces for the recital to be musicians, though perhaps only 5% or 10% approach the level of full time professionals. Most here are hobbyists, amateurs, and perfectly happy with their station in the musical world.

There is a distinction, then, between a musican and someone with a musical hobby, right?

Since you've played all your life and you do not consider yourself a musician, your resistance to calling yourself a musican begs the question, how much of being a musician is pure devotion, and how much is natural talent? (and for the record, I would totally consider you a musican by default )

I knew a kid who was 18 years old when I met him. He played guitar and wrote music. He lived, thought, saw and heard life in musical vibrations. He was (and is) a really cool kid, but his affinity for music almost seemed to hang on the line right where it divides genius from insanity. He'd play any guitar, even if it had a bent neck and three strings. He'd just adjust to the new sound and make it work, and it worked like you wouldn't believe.

He started playing guitar around 9 years old. So, that gives him 9 years. Does that make him a musician?

I don't think we can measure musicianship by years, because a year for me with the piano equates to a few weeks in one year of that kid who played guitar for 9 years.

Perhaps being a musician involves two things:

1. An incredible drive toward learning and perfecting and being involved with music

and

2. The ability and drive to innovate and create.

Then again, Merriam Webster defines a musican as:

: a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist

So, technically, anyone who is consistantly learning and perfecting an instrument, no matter what level he or she is at, is a musician. The dictionary's example of the word in a sentence is "She's a very talented musician," which implies that the word "musician" carries less significance about the performer's skills and devotion than the qualifiers such as "talented," "amazing," "novice," and "awful."

So, if you can be an awful musician, anyone who plays an instrument is a musician.

So are we down to this definition? A musician is anyone who claims to be making music. And it is up to others to judge if that person is a great musician, a good musician, or the world's worst musician.

Well, when you put it that way... maybe not!

But than again, we revert to the definition of music. Are you making "music," if you're fumbling over keys (or strings or winds)?

I would expect a "musician" to have some mastery in his or her domain of music.

He or she should be able to comfortably and confidently play an instrument. You can't just learn Chopsticks and say, "I'm a musician."

But you don't have to play advanced levels of piano solos in all musical periods to be a piano player who is a "musician," either.

I know of some people who are very good at hearing music and playing the right chord phrasings to go with othe musical instruments. They can improvise by ear and on the spot. They play interesing runs and innovative musical impovisations, but their piano playing skills, alone, are not equivalent to a master classical pianist. They are musicians who often play several instruments and their musical domain is "jamming!"

Anyone who puts paint on any surface is a "painter" but no one thinks that a preschooler happily finger painting on butcher paper takes anything away from painters like Picasso or Michelangelo.

Why is it not so with music?

Painter is the person that paints the house or the fence. Artist is the person doing watercolors or oils or sculpture. The high level artist has their work at the gallery or at the museum. Even for artists, many casual observers might lump legends such as Rothko and Mondrian into a similar group as a kid with finger paints.

I like this explanation/phrasing the best! +1!

From now on I'm calling myself an aspiring musician!:)

I have heard two people play the same arrangement and the one who moves me emotionally has a certain something that is very hard to define. Both will be technically perfect but one is just carried away with it to a different plane...and it comes out in their playing. ??? They just seem to be so at ease with their craft. Just my opinion of course

The problem is that putting some talent type of measure is hard because there's ALWAYS someone better than you. You could be playing for 50 years and you'll still feel this. So on that basis, one may never have a chance to call oneself a musician.

Reminds me of the same kind of topic: Do you call yourself a Pianist or Piano Player? Many reserve the word Pianist for someone with Classical chops. But I just add that I'm a "Mediocre" pianist...

I guess I am kind of hardcore on this!

I don't think talent really plays a role; that's part of whether you are a good or bad musician. It's the devotion to the art form, making it your life rather than a hobby, even a serious hobby. I have a lot of respect for those who devote their life to something, particularly an art form, which rarely leads to lucrative employment. If you devote your life's work to it, you are a musician. I realize the term can be used very differently, and very legitimately in different ways, by different people. This is only how I use it.

Part of this probably grows out of the small amount of guilt I have when I play a gig. Am I worthy of playing the gig, yes. Do people really enjoy what I do; yes. I get great feedback. But I know how hard it is for so many "true" musicians in our town to get consistent gigs that I always feel (a little bit) like they should be there instead of me.

My therapy session is now over.

I hear you. And I can't say I feel different. I compensate by hiring "real musicians" in my band. I'm the wannabe. They need the money. But I get them the gigs. So for that, I get to "play" and they get the "pay".

The venue has to refer to us collectively as musicians, in any case, like "you musicians are awful", "we don't feed the musicians", "we can only give a small pay to the musicians", "you jazz musicians need to play some rock and roll", "you musicians ought to be glad you're playing here" ...and so on...

So a musician is a service provider. Kinda like house maids, custodians, street cleaners, etc. That way they don't have to refer to us as "Hey you---use the employee back entrance".

(and the above isn't that far from the truth...)

Last gig I played was a charity event (for free) and the venue first asked us to provide an insurance certificate. While they eventually waived the requirement, I was thinking: Hey don't you know I'm not really a musician?

Isn't it much like the term "expert"?

If you give yourself the label, you sound like an insufferable blowhard. You just have to wait for someone else to give you the label, which is completely subjective of course!

"insufferable blowhard" just makes me laugh!

I'm not hoping to be a musician, I just want to avoid being an insufferable blowhard!

I think that's it!

It happens when you accept that you are a musician and allow yourself to be one without comparing yourself to how good someone else is. It's when you do your own thing and walk your own path and share something of your own through music.

Hi,



As I see it, this definition, maybe a bit oversimplified, fits in well.

Then there are pros and amateurs, but a pro is someone that makes money doing an activity, an amateur is someone who does something for pleasure or hobby. It (pro or amateur) can be applied to musicians, runners, painters, farmers, etc.

A musician is someone who plays music. A pro musician is someone who gets paid for playing music. An amateur musician is someone who plays as a hobby.

Then there are good pro musicians, bad pro musicians, good amateur musicians, bad amateur musicians. It's possible for an amateur musician to be a lot better than some pro musicians, bad usually pro musicians tend to be better than amateurs (so somebody will pay them for hearing how they play).

So I am an amateur musician (I play piano music and nobody is going to pay for hearing me to play). I am not amongst the good ones. I am not even near the good ones (in case of doubt my teacher can corroborate that). At least I hope not to be an insufferable blowhard, but I am not the one who has to judge it. Up to know my neighbours are not complaining when I play so that proves that I have achieved that... or at least that my apartment is sound-proof

This is my view on the subject... but sometimes semantics are tricky and there are multiple uses for the same words.

Regards,
Kurt.-

Just curious
Would there be such thing as a sufferable blowhard?

To me, music is a form of communication. A universal one. It's a form of communication that can clearly express true emotions and meaning through the input and expression of the performer.

So, in a sense, a good musician is similar to a good communicator in that there message has to be sent and (hopefully), accurately received.

Whatever musical message you want to send is up to you. How it gets received is usually dependent on how it was sent which will usually go back to the transmission (the performance) to begin with.

So what does this all mean you ask??,....well nothing. I'm just screwing around.

The real answer is so simple. Without over thinking this, if others enjoy your playing, then your playing is music to there ears.

Now let's eat!

Perhaps... i.e. a blowhard who is unpleasant, but marginally tolerable

in·suf·fer·a·ble/inˈsəf(ə)rəbəl/
Adjective:
Too extreme to bear; intolerable.
Having or showing unbearable arrogance or conceit

blow·hard/ˈblōˌhärd/
Noun:
A person who blusters and boasts in an unpleasant way.

I am finding it absolutely hilarious that you have made this your sig line.

Of course, I find myself in a job interview the other day and I am asked regarding a particular area of my experience: "would you consider yourself an expert?"...

Ummmm... uhhh... "Yes, I guess so" was my bumbling answer. Rather than professionally conveying my opinion that saying so of myself would make me sound like an insufferable blowhard, I instead said the exact opposite of what I think people should say in order to demonstrate having a modicum of humility.

Arrrrrrghhhh!!!

Typical musician, never think they're good enough.