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CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING

Posted By: alfredo capurso

CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/15/09 09:30 PM


I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Best regards, a.c.



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html


Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 04:03 AM

It sounds like a professional quality tuning to me, Alfredo but frankly I sorely miss the color in temperament I am used to hearing with my tunings. The octave stretching is quite beautiful however and the overall sound is very clear.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 12:40 PM

.....................say
......................I
...............want
...................to
...........choose
....................a
the correct way is tuning a preparatory beats and frequencies curve
...................that
...................leads
.........................to
.......................Chas
......................beating
..........................whole


From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 01:06 PM

Quote
From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster beat rate progression.


Why?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 10:20 PM


Bill, Kent, thank you.

Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html




Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 10:27 PM

How far from just is the piano when you start ?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 10:53 PM

Hi Kamin,

Good point, but I would not have a clue. The one you mention is one of the variables, like the person that will open us the door.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 11:03 PM

Quote
Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics.


Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Quote
So, I never go directly for the Chas form.


Specifically, why not?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 11:34 PM

Hello Kent,

we can discuss about my needs, flowers, analogies, pro tuning and special techniques here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html

Regards, a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/16/09 11:54 PM

Quote
I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning


My questions are within the scope of this topic, are they not?

To repeat:

Why do you feel the need to use flowery analogy in speaking with experienced professional tuners?

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 12:36 AM

Bill, Kent, you have already my reply here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail.

In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


...........................(- (- (- (- (- (- (+) -) -) -) -) -) -)


Tuning a piano may be compared to forging a bow.

A piano reacts quite like a stringed bow and, like a bow, a piano must have its correct "at rest" tension.

The piano's "at rest" tension can return our favorite tuning form. Arguing from analogy, I forge a bow by considering its dynamics. Pins may then be compared to arrows.

I pull the string and stretch my bow as due, then I’m aiming my arrow (the pin) at my target (Chas form), and let my bow itself (the piano) adjust to its consequent "at rest" tension. This overall tension can draw my favorite form.

So, I never go directly for the Chas form. I’m not the one that gains it, I only determine the premises. Chas EB-ET temperament can only be the result of correct evaluation of all the factors mentioned below. This factors call for an accentuated stretch for all intervals, what I refer to as Chas Preparatory Tuning.

The many tons of mixtured forces in the piano, how the strings tension and load increase (or decrease) will effect the whole structure, together with the strings three-lengths adjustements. So, before and during my tuning, I’m there to evaluate the settling down parabola.

It is indeed like calculating an arrow’s trajectory, in consideration of wind and gravity.

a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 02:01 AM

Was the link you posted intended to be bogus?

Quote
In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Is it acceptable, then, to provide feedback stating that no progress is possible, given the lack of information forthcoming from you?

I repeat:

Are you claiming that your temperament and/or stretch level of your tuning requires some special technique that must be followed in order for a professional tuner to execute your tuning with stable results?

Will you be posting here corrected instructions for your temperament, as has been requested before?
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 05:25 AM

was not yet the settling bowl parabola yet used ?

But I begin to be annoyed to have to try to understand where you man want to come by with that suspense and prophetic things. Are you in a sect of some sort ?

I have also find that one " the bow when plucked, tone as a bow : boink !"

We need enthusiastic people, but please how do you want us to take you seriously ? Kens inquiry was serious, is it necessary to raise pitch on the whole piano befor meditating a Chas tuning .
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 05:44 AM

About bowing, or natural settling, yes a grand, preferently without plate bushing, could settle in a natural way hence no active pin setting from the tuner, the pianist do the job, but I learned to rely not so much to that, If you think of that.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 11:27 AM


Kent,

I did link my reply to you, it is still there. I apologize for the forthcoming amount of informations, it is mainly relative to my time disposal.

This thread is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach. It is not intended for discussing different approaches, tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency.

Please mind, nobody here is forced into any kind of belief. I’m simply talking about my personal experience, one of many possible routes, and about my favorite tuning temperament, in my personal way. Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.

Anybody may have sincere reasons for sharing Theories, approaches, tunings, techniques, linguistic styles and/or forms of communication. If anyone wanted to talk about their own issues, or deepen a subject, I kindly ask he/she either to choose the most appropriate Topic (there is plenty) or to start his/her own new Topic.

For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Regards, a.c.


CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 12:42 PM

With the analogy of a piano being a bow and when releasing the tension the tuning is created, my question is a little different than Kamin’s:

Originally Posted by Kamin
How far from just is the piano when you start ?


My question is: “Just how far will the piano fly when you finish?” laugh
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 12:52 PM

Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?

Quote
Nobody then is forced into this reading and, if it was not satisfactory, this whole thread may as well be ignored.


How, exactly, do you intend to disseminate your technique if you won't discuss it?

Repeating, do you plan to post a corrected version of your tuning instructions, as previously requested?

Quote
For discussing about Chas EB-ET Theory, you are welcome here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html


Is it intentional that you are repeatedly posting this broken link?


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/17/09 01:24 PM

"Given that the topic is named "CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING", is it not appropriate to inquire about why a preparatory tuning is needed?"...

Kent, you can also read about that in Chas first Topic. Sorry, for the link, yesterday it was working. May I ask you to kindly change attitude? As I have said, nobody is forced into this reading. a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 06:58 PM


........(- (- (- (o) -) -) -)

/-------------------------------//
------------------------------//

......................l
......................l
.....................a
.....................w
.....................a
.....................d
.....................n
.....................o
.....................y
.....................e
.....................b
.....................k
.....................o
.....................o
......................l
.....................a
.....................n
.....................n
.....................a
.....................w
......................I
......................y
......................a
......................s

..a.v....n.l....o.t..........l.a.......b.o
.h...e.o...y.g....o......e...s....c.....a
I........................n.e.......t.i..........r.d

considering my wheight

............................................t......i
.....................................i..................n
..............................t.............................t
.......................e.......................................h
..................s................................................i
.............y......................................................s
........a............................................................w
....m.................................................................a
I..........................................................................y


When I modify the strings load on the bridge and the soundboard, I consider the elasticity factor. The bridge and the sounboard can only adjust then under a correct distribution of the new load, only then I get my favorite tuning.

.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 07:37 PM

Alfredo:

Maybe you are talking about what is called a "pitch raise." A piano is below pitch, so it is roughly tuned a little above pitch but ends up about on pitch. Then it is given a finer tuning. Of course some parts of the piano may be lower than others and the "a little above pitch" might be more like "quite a bit above pitch."

Is this what you are doing when a piano is below pitch, or do you need to do this regardless of where the piano's pitch starts at? I mean, if there is a piano that you tune regularly, do you do this preparation tuning every time?
Posted By: JBE

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/18/09 11:37 PM

Huh!!! eek
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 10:15 AM

Alfredo, you did not refrain on those champaign bottles, please wait a little Christmas is only in a few days !!

That said, Cheers !
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 12:07 PM


The champaign is still there, promise, it must have been that recent cake...fine patisserie?

Anyway...Cheers!

.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 10:27 PM


Even if there is no wind, an arrow draws a curved trajectory.

Even when I tune a piano very close to my favorite sound whole, say 99%, I never tune Chas on mid-strings, I’ll go for a preparatory tuning, as described above. I always consider the adjustments that will take place, possibly the infinitesimal ones too, and I do everything I can for these adjustments to take place.

If that piano was very very close to my favorite order, say 99.999%, on mid-strings it would (more or less) keep the preparatory tuning I talk about, then it may be a question of unisons. In any case, only in peculiar circumstances do I accept to “repair” my tuning, normally I restart from the beginning.

A piano may look like an ordinary piece of furniture, but in fact, due to the tons of tension it holds, we know that a piano is more an instrument that is constantly “in progress”.

My favorite sound beating-whole can only be the result of a dynamic factor, the piano structure’s adjustments. I determine the premises, and act, so that Chas may result from these premises through the piano’s settling down. Only then can I think of it as a temporary stable condition.

My tuning is causing these factors, determining the premises and driving the adjustments, expecting and wanting them in one, acting and waiting for them to release eventually my favorite sound whole.

a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 11:00 PM

Pianos, I only talk to them, with a new one I ask gently if I'll have trouble with him and generally he say no and stay quiet (I've seen that in a movie where the guy comes to jail, the green line, it works).

Sometime only if I put my case near the piano it sound better !
Posted By: JBE

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/19/09 11:46 PM

...and if HE'S a SHE does she slap you in the face too?

Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/20/09 09:14 AM

Nope, once one step on my toe, but as I wear security shoes I smiled and took my hammer, the piano was only badly in need of tuning (that makes them nervous)

Is the grand piano feminine, in English ? (never thought of that).
Here the grand is pretty much masculine, as the vertical.
Special mention to the factory joke about the 3 lid props BTW, (we are in the working class, for most, don't forget even if mention of those terms disappear from common language some years ago)



Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/21/09 01:12 PM

Alfredo:

I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together. A drop in pitch has been observed. But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals. This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs.

Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing.

In regards to tension equalization, something I have noticed when doing a preparatory pitch raise is that too much of an overshoot does not seem to matter as much as even a little bit of undershoot.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/24/09 08:23 AM

So how do we setup that CHas preparatory tuning ?

And the real thing ?



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/28/09 10:14 PM

These contents were posted on Chas Topic on 5/23/09 (somehow corrected (thanks to Jeff Deutschle)):

I decided to go further my tuning sequence mainly for two reasons: firstly, because hundreds of interesting pages have and are been written about the most original and reasonable sequencies, none of them leading to a solid, reliable theory that could deal with inharmonicity, so leaving tuners in a state of uncertainty. A sequence will always be debatable, a mathematical evidence will not. Secondly, because I do not think the sequence I use is any special, nor time saving or more confortable for listening to or comparing beats. In my opinion, any sequence can eventually work, as long as you clearly know what you can be aiming at and why, and how and where you’ll get it.

The only novelty may regard the overall approach and the interrelation of SBI, i.e. 8ves, 4ths and 5ths beat curves, the research's results that opened to Chas. Chromatic 4ths are not only similar, going up the scale they get tiny little wider. Chromatic 5ths are not only similar, from low notes they first stretch down and get tiny little narrower, in between G3 and G4 they invert and stretch up toward there pure ratio (tuning centre strings), going tiny less and less narrow.

An italian collegue pointed out that SBI are much harder to evaluate than RBI. True, I would also agree in saying that RBI give you the general idea of what you are doing in the shortest lapse of time. Nevertheless in my opinion, anyone truly wanting to achieve excellence in aural tuning, would have to master the maximum control of any interval’s beat. A matter of wrist, both in the figurative and the anathomic sense, and a matter of rhythmics. In my case, SBI control took me to the 7th decimal point (section 4.5).

So what happened was, first I empirically calculated the univocal SBI and RBI chromatic proportional order, there I could notice an astonishing euphonic set that would prove how inharmonicity can be made tractable. Then I simply elaborated its essence, to finally construct an updated and comprehensive ET model, reliable in both theoretical and practical terms. Since I know all this comes from practice, simplicity and utmost exactitude, I’m disclosing Chas model with a serene soul.

In tuning, as I have learned, each sound is only temporarly tuned, since every single added sound may indicate the need to correct previously tuned notes. At the end, it is the Chas form that releases me from all doubts and only then I am absolutely certain to have done my best. Anyway, here are a few suggestions introducing and commenting the sequence.

A - do not take this tuning sequence as a must -
B - octaves, 4ths and 5ths shape the skelethon of the entire set -
C - start tuning only middle string, mute from C6 down to strings crossing, dampers up -
D - tuning single strings and unisons, get always the same moderate sound intensity -
E - octaves have a low beat-threshold and a high beat-threshold, this helps me when tuning octaves in middle register -
F - possibly, stabilize middle string frequencies by playing a Forte sound -
G – do not tire your ears, by playing louder you will not hear better nor more -

sharp or flat is referred to the note we are ment to tune. The already-tuned note is in bracket -

Step 1 – A4 – from 440.0 Hz to 442.0 Hz (concert or studio) - from 442.0 to 443.0 (for flat pianos)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 – (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 – (A3)-D4-(A4) - sharp, close to 1 beat/sec. – D4-(A4) faintly beating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 – (A3)-E4 - flat
check overlaping 5ths and adjacent 4ths to set up Chas ET EB octave:
A3-E4 about 1,5 beat/3s - sensibly faster than D4-A4
E4-A4 about 2 beats/1s - sensibly faster than A3-D4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 5 – (E4)-B3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 6 – (B3)-F#4 - flat - little slower beat than A3-E4 since 5ths have already inverted
faster beat than D4-A4 evaluate M6 A3-F#4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 7 – (F#4)-C#4 – flat - faster beat than E4-B3, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
evaluate two M3’s progression + one M6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 8 – (C#4)-G#4 – flat - slower beat than B3-F#4, tiny little faster than D4-A4
evaluate three M3’s progression + two M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 9 – (G#4)-D#4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than E4-(A4), faster than F#4-C#4
evaluate four M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 10 – (D#4)-A#3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, tiny little slower than E4-B3
evaluate five M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 11 – (A#3)-F4 – flat - tiny little slower beat than A3-E4,
tiny little faster beat than B3-F#4
evaluate seven M3’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far, apart from A3-D4, we have stretched "flat" - now we’ll stretch "sharp"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 12 – (D4)-G4 – sharp - tiny little slower beat than G#4-D#4, faster beat than F#4-C#4
evaluate eight M3’s progression + three M6’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 13 – (G4)-C4 - sharp - tiny little slower beat than B3-F#4,
tiny little faster beat than C#4-G#4 evaluate nine M3’s progression + four M6’s progression
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beats curves are meant to be tuned temporarly. While you are tuning, bear all (few) doubts in mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 14 – (A#3)-A#4 – sharp - increase octaves beat’s speed very slowly – 5ths go very, very slowly towards pure – F4-A#4 tiny little faster beat than D4-A4, as for the next 4ths
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the octave beat threshold, first signs of beating come to us in a shorter and shorter lapse of time, this helps to S-shape octaves stretch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 15 – (B3)-B4 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very, very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 16 – (C4)-C5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly - 5ths towards pure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 17 – (C#4)-C#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths start transiting pure - evaluate one M10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 18 – (D4)-D5 - sharp - increase octaves beats rate very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 19 – (D#4)-D#5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly – 5ths are transiting pure - evaluate M10’s progression
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 20 – (E4)-E5 - sharp - increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths have transited pure, evaluate M10’s progression –
chromatic M12s, like A3-E5 must be constant and temporarly tuned pure (on normally out of tune pianos) -
Step 21 – (F4)-F5 – sharp
Step 22 – (F#4)-F#5 – sharp
Step 23 – (G4)-G5 – sharp
Step 24 – (G#4)-G#5 – sharp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 25 – A4-A5 – double octaves like A3-A5 must be constant and temporarly beat with a rate of about 3b/2s, or 3/2 bps
increase octaves beats speed very slowly –
5ths are very slowly widening, evaluate M10’s progression –
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 26 – (A#4)-A#5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 27 – (B4)-B5 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
Step 28 – (C5)-C6 – sharp - check 10ths, pure 12ths, wide 15ths, let 5ths go slowly wider
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back down for G#3 to lower notes using SBI, RBI and EB, never lose control of beats progressions for all intervals. 5ths will get slower, so will 4ths. Improve A#4 with F#3 and D#3. Unison all these registers from your left hand moving right, except last muted string on C6, then go up to higher notes. Chas delta-wide 15ths and delta-narrow 12ths beat’s rate is about 1b/3s or 1/3 bps.

Tune as you know, middle string first, then unison previous note’s right string (C6), next left (C#6), tune next middle (D6), unison previous right (C#6), next left, tune next middle and so on, checking also M17ths progression. While tuning, do not stop evaluating strings and sound-board rigidity/elasticity, so you’ll be able to conveniently tune centre strings.

a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/29/09 08:21 AM

Thanks so much ALfredo,

What a huge job to describe and theorize on that ! I said esoteric not because of the method but the way you present it, but I suppose I can get used to your way to express things.

I believe I'll have a better picture of what you are doing while doing it myself.

I'll ask my Brother, which is violonist, what he think about large fifths (and small ones ! )
He plays very just, and with many pianists (or even an organist once)

Hopefully he also have some humour ! Ill let you know what he say.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-parodies-transcriptions-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00166GMGS

Thank you and please post other recordings if possible (with voiced piano) Best regards.

Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 04:28 PM

May I respectfully suggest that you are not familiar with modern temperament directions, which contain much specific detail not included in your directions.

Many sets of directions have been published. I myself have published a set of directions for some decades; my directions are known to have been helpful to many learning piano tuning.

My directions are presently somewhat out-of-date, but remain useful.

Pending a needed update, the latest version of my directions may be seen at:

files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

I hope my directions will provide at least one example of a modern set of temperament directions.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 04:41 PM


Thanks Kent, I very much appreciate the chance you offer me. That address do not seem to work though, what can I do?

a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/30/09 09:46 PM

Hello Alfredo !

I could not be there for some days, but I'll give you news soon !


The kind of thing that makes the explanations may be not precise enough is for instance "first octave barely beating"

To know how much I may know what kind of "proof" to be used and how many beats differences. for instance, 1 beat in 5 seconds for M3d/10th (or4:2 if expressed differntly)

That said, on a Fazioli concert grand for instance, (from memory ) you cant have a noticeable difference between 6:3 and 4:2 , iH is simply too low there so the trade of is not the way to have the best temperament octave.

I approach that this way :
I tune 2 doublets unisons that "speaks"
Octave may speak the same, I only may be careful with the tendency to have too little stretched octaves that way.

Your method of pulling one string higher than the final wanted pitch is also a "guess and hope method" , or you count of the energy blend coming from the instrument to "lock" the octave (which is certainly possible but difficult to prove, we are now in "artistic tuning" and not following a model.

I have no particular problems with rolling octaves, as long as the roll is not out of phase , or perceived, but depending of the output I'll lessen that ( if FBI begin to raise speed too much).

Seem to me that on low iH instruments, as harpsichords, tuning models that allow beating octaves leave no place for the inherent acoustic of the instrument, it scream, it catch the ear, eventually musically but not in its most natural way. Some like that impression of constant suspense and it clean minor harmony, but I've seen very negatives reactions from musicians with some comments as " Bontempi tone"
(not talking of your particular method here, that is more in the Cordier reaction)

It could be cultural, why not, anyway a taste affair.

Till next time, and have a nice end of 2009 !




Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/31/09 01:07 AM

All of the following are correct paths to the file:

files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

http://files.me.com/kentswafford/0p8fok

http://www.kentswafford.com/EWW/ewwt.pdf
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/31/09 03:01 PM


Thanks Kamin, I'll reply asap, it will be 2010!!

Thanks Kent, they are correct paths indeed, I'll study your paper and reply to you too. To All

-(----------------------- 20 * HAPPY NEW YEAR *10
.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/01/10 02:57 PM

Happy new also, , sorry it is just to have my name on the whole front page !!!

Best regards '(no reply needed !!!)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/04/10 10:05 PM


Chas Preparatory Tuning is referred to centre-strings-tuning and it comes out to be mindful tuning:

Chas ET octaves are progressive.

Chas 4ths are progressive. The 4ths beat rate progression invert on C3.
Chas 5ths are progressive. The 5ths beat rate progression invert on E4 (tuning centre strings).

Octaves beat-rise-time – Propensity to beat

------------------------TIME
I-----I------I--------I----------I--------I------I-----I---I
A0...A1.....A2........A3...........A4........A5.......A6...A7..C8


In Chas preparatory tuning, octaves are wide and progressive. In order to distribute the octaves progression I evaluate the “propensity to beat”, in other words I calculate the TIME needed for the beat to rise. Midrange octaves do not beat, though octaves swell towards beating.

So I set the A3-A4 octave on the edge (or soil) of the beat (on centre string) and, little by little, this stretch is to be chromaticaly widened. Then, going towards high and low notes, the octave’s beat gets more and more defined, i.e. it rises in a shorter and shorter time, as shown above. Only for the highest octaves I can count progressive beating around 1/bps or little more.

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.

a.c.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/05/10 08:59 AM

Hello ALfredo,

You are welcome to Paris, of course, thanks for proposal.

Thank you for your clearing , it begin to comes thru my slow mind !.

What I am not exactly understanding is why there is any interest in having the piano tuned as if it was a single chord, it probably misses some movement along the keyboard harmonically then, as to me the stretch evolving gave that , and pianist most probably play with it while improvising.

I see tuning as a reproduction more or less precise because of the piano iH, of a temperament, it can be based on an octave or include yet corrections in prevision of the highest and lowest regions, it can be more tonal or more based on the inharmonic spectra of the notes (inharmonicity is low in the medium range but yet perceived, hopefully, if not the tone is not as crisp as a piano tone.)

I have yet tried yesterday with your inversion in mind, and finishing with the 12th 15th evening so 4th 5th temperament with that inversion gives strange results, no harshness but one have to get use to that.

I had not time to record the piano, it will be done later (may be , aint my instrument)

I may say that my first impression is that 12th 15th evening will correct any kind of temperament and make the piano then playeable by reconciliation of the medium tweaks and the treble and bass (hopefully on pianos we have often much room for cheats !)

second impression is that 12th 15th is a very valuable and quiet method to raise in the treble
Also very comfortable to find pitches in the low basses when the wires are dumb (old)

I tuned that 122M Grotrian (while "listening" to the concerto "the Emporor' so to be sure to not tune as usually) and it had a nice resonance in the end (despite a slow third in the middle of temperament).

But I did not came near any of the slow beats of the tenths and 17th of the begin of your recording, the medium octaves are not 2:1 to my ears they need a little more stretch so the beginning of the treble sticks out more easely.

May be compromizing the 12th and the double octave is a good way to determine the size of the octave while going up and down but I am unsure it is the same for the temperament or the low medium range.

You say that ih is poor in the medium. do you have the numbers ? I just checked and it looks like even on a concert grand the ih of the A3 is around the iH of the lowest plain wires, anyway my experience have been that iH change your first octave as any other note on the piano, even on a concert grand you cant reconcilite all intervals, there is a differnece between 6:3 and 4:2, and the speed of intervals vary depending of the piano.

If your method have to be matheamtically valid you cant say "it is low so does not matter" because it is a variable and the primarly goal of tuning is to make an interesting use of the iH of the piano.

By evidence the piano is driving the beats speed, but I relate to that thoses too slow 10ths I hear in the beginning of the recording.

That said you certainly have find a way to have a nice resonance within the instrument.
I may respectfully ask you : do you play piano ? I know some very talented concert tuner which is unable to play and to check the harmonic behaviour of a piano (hense stick to what he learned and then please most pianists)

I was lucky enough to grow within a musician family so it sort of sharpen my ears (that have been a little beaten by my tuning days but I stay acute I guess!)

When I say that contrast is necessary I mean that it may be too much perceived if a tuning is based on one interval only (while it is highly pleayeable to have progressive RBI, they may progress in speed not to slowly so to pealse the musican's ear)

Your last explanations give me material, so Ill write again after having tried with that method too.

I'll answer on the preparatory tuning, I guess you have some part of mysticism that makes you believe that the piano will "self tune" in some way after you tense the middle string. I believe you may be right in that case but probably only if the piano is yet not far from final pitch.

It would be interesting to do your tuning with the right pedal engaged and see how the pitch evolve.

If not there are % that can be used to ascertain where the final pitch will be (some EDT have good solution to that problem, but based on an unison tuning as we go, so your approach make sense , but I see no maths at that point, for instance how do you deal with piano which is 4 cts low how do you evaluate the necessary raise).

A customer , piano teacher that was math teaching in a precedent life, told me when I showed her the debate on your presentation of CHAS, that once you look for mathematic proof of something you had find by trial, you always find a way for justification.

Being not at a sufficient level of maths to say so I would not comment, but that seem to be what most have say on the forum
while I believe it should be less sterile in the discussion if my colleagues directly try to tune with your recipe, then discuss later.)


Best regards.











Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 07:29 PM


Hello Kamin, you kindly write:

...“What I am not exactly understanding is why there is any interest in having the piano tuned as if it was a single chord, it probably misses some movement along the keyboard harmonically then, as to me the stretch evolving gave that , and pianist most probably play with it while improvising.”...

I tune centre strings – the way I was taught – mainly for distributing strings load on the bridge and, while the piano is settling, for correcting (in case) only one string.

...“I see tuning as a reproduction more or less precise because of the piano iH, of a temperament, it can be based on an octave or include yet corrections in prevision of the highest and lowest regions, it can be more tonal or more based on the inharmonic spectra of the notes (inharmonicity is low in the medium range but yet perceived, hopefully, if not the tone is not as crisp as a piano tone.)”...

In my experience, iH can influence my tuning form very very little, much less than usually lamented. In any case, I could draw the qualities of Chas form and get its symmetric properties out, even on very small pianos.

...“I have yet tried yesterday with your inversion in mind, and finishing with the 12th 15th evening so 4th 5th temperament with that inversion gives strange results, no harshness but one have to get use to that.”...

Yes, most probably it will be strange at the beginning.

...“I may say that my first impression is that 12th 15th evening will correct any kind of temperament and make the piano then playeable by reconciliation of the medium tweaks and the treble and bass (hopefully on pianos we have often much room for cheats !)”...

Well, if one uses it to correct any kind of temperament, a part of the smoothness of the overall progressions will be lost, together with a part of the beats synchronism, what effects the overall resonance. In any case, one could still have a precise reference given by Chas Theory's Delta rule for 88 tones ET tuning.

...“second impression is that 12th 15th is a very valuable and quiet method to raise in the treble
Also very comfortable to find pitches in the low basses when the wires are dumb (old)”...

I agree. When I tune, I find very confortable having precise checks and control opportunity. Chas Pre-form's tuning displays the curves for all intervals, so I get plenty of chances to check this Pre-form and to know what I'm doing.

...“I tuned that 122M Grotrian (while "listening" to the concerto "the Emporor' so to be sure to not tune as usually) and it had a nice resonance in the end (despite a slow third in the middle of temperament).”...

Good, I’m glad.

...“But I did not came near any of the slow beats of the tenths and 17th of the begin of your recording, the medium octaves are not 2:1 to my ears they need a little more stretch so the beginning of the treble sticks out more easely.”...

Is not immediate to evaluate how much the piano is going to “take back” and where, in terms of stretch and load. In a way, it remains an unknown variable, but you certainly know about this.

...”May be compromizing the 12th and the double octave is a good way to determine the size of the octave while going up and down but I am unsure it is the same for the temperament or the low medium range.”...

Chas Pre-form favours 3:1 ratio (for 12ths) and 3:2 or even wide 5ths, up the scale on centre strings. Never had problems in mid or mid-low range, I keep progressive octaves, 3rds, 6ths, well related and progressive 4ths and 5ths, and check with, 10ths, 17ths ecc. as usual.

...“You say that ih is poor in the medium. do you have the numbers ? I just checked and it looks like even on a concert grand the ih of the A3 is around the iH of the lowest plain wires, anyway my experience have been that iH change your first octave as any other note on the piano, even on a concert grand you cant reconcilite all intervals, there is a differnece between 6:3 and 4:2, and the speed of intervals vary depending of the piano.”...

In my opinion, setting with 6:3 intervals may expose you to the iH’s effects.

...“If your method have to be matheamtically valid you cant say "it is low so does not matter" because it is a variable and the primarly goal of tuning is to make an interesting use of the iH of the piano.”...

Ohi, I would not like to be extreme, I do not tune with a calculator. Chas Theory is mathematically impecable, Chas Pre-form tuning must consider all variables. Then, in my experience, defining the beats order with basic ratios, may limit iH’s influence.

...“I may respectfully ask you : do you play piano ? I know some very talented concert tuner which is unable to play and to check the harmonic behaviour of a piano (hense stick to what he learned and then please most pianists)
I was lucky enough to grow within a musician family so it sort of sharpen my ears (that have been a little beaten by my tuning days but I stay acute I guess!)”...

I’m not dedicated to piano playing, but I play the piano as a preparer’s routine. As for the rest, playing is not a passion for me, it is more of a chronic disease and a family inclination.

...“When I say that contrast is necessary I mean that it may be too much perceived if a tuning is based on one interval only”...

Chas Pre-form is drawn with all intervals, with slow and fast beats checks and proportions.

...“I'll answer on the preparatory tuning, I guess you have some part of mysticism that makes you believe that the piano will "self tune" in some way after you tense the middle string. I believe you may be right in that case but probably only if the piano is yet not far from final pitch.”...

More than faith or personal belief, it is a question of phisics. Not only for pitch-raising but always, when I charge the piano’s structure, change tensions and load the bridges, I must expect some degree of settling. I like evaluating the smallest one.

Say you play bowls, you throw the bowl and let it go towards your target. It is the bowl that gets it. Same if you shoot an arrow, you stretch your bow and let your arrow get your target. Same with tuning, I evaluate and stretch Chas Pre-form and let the piano gain it. For me this is very much realistic and respectful of how things go.

...“It would be interesting to do your tuning with the right pedal engaged and see how the pitch evolve.”...

I do not know this technique and I’m very curious about it.

...“If not there are % that can be used to ascertain where the final pitch will be (some EDT have good solution to that problem, but based on an unison tuning as we go, so your approach make sense , but I see no maths at that point, for instance how do you deal with piano which is 4 cts low how do you evaluate the necessary raise).”...

The lower (in pitch) the piano, the more approximated the tuning, then experience helps but you well know that.

...“A customer , piano teacher that was math teaching in a precedent life, told me when I showed her the debate on your presentation of CHAS, that once you look for mathematic proof of something you had find by trial, you always find a way for justification.”...

Well, I do not have research experience in other fields but, if you can, ask her how she likes the mathematical proofs and justifications adopted for any medical equipment, when she needs it.

...“Being not at a sufficient level of maths to say so I would not comment, but that seem to be what most have say on the forum
while I believe it should be less sterile in the discussion if my colleagues directly try to tune with your recipe, then discuss later.)”...

For what I’ve seen – also in other fields - when it comes to accuracy, exatitude, reliability or else related to self control, product and performance’s quality, many people prefere to talk about artistics, but I like it this way...Vive la diversité!

Best regards,

a.c.
.



Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 07:56 PM

I've been following these tuning discussions with great interest - technical interest only.

Alfredo writes:
Chas 4ths are progressive. The 4ths beat rate progression invert on C3.
Chas 5ths are progressive. The 5ths beat rate progression invert on E4 (tuning centre strings).

Two questions:

If beats (4ths) are supposed to invert from wide to narrow, (5ths) narrow to wide at some point in the register (it should depend on the piano, I think), then how can that be if the octaves are continuously stretched ever so slightly sharp from the tempered section and ever so slightly stretched flat below the tempered section?

How can one slightly stretch each octave note and expect those widened octaves to pave the way for an already widened 4th to become narrower? ...and narrow 5ths to be wider?

That means if the beats invert, then at some point, there are no beats, meaning that a particular 4th or 5th will be tuned pure (just)? Is this to provide a piano with the "color" as in not equal? Or do they invert in that their slow beat rates become faster/slower depending (4th or 5th) and not become pure intervals? I understand these things are better off seen/heard in-person, rather than described on a forum thread.

Sorry if I am missing something and you are repeating yourself.

I know, Issac, I will stop stretching so much the bass notes! wink

Glen

Sample tuning - please excuse playing errors wink

http://www.box.net/shared/rryoo393l4

http://www.box.net/shared/062bz3yefx

http://www.box.net/shared/27hq5la89d
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/07/10 10:43 PM


Hello Glen,

I'm happy to answer your questions for anything you may find unclear or illogical.

you ask:..."Or do they invert in that their slow beat rates become faster/slower depending (4th or 5th) and not become pure intervals?"...

Take this as a practical aid, nothing numerical but it can work as general reference and as a way to represent how intervals go.

Pre-form (centre strings from C3 to C6): 4ths never become pure. From bass up to C3-F3 they faintly slow down, from C3-F3 going up they get wider. Usually I go from C3-F3 down the bass, so in this direction 4ths get wider.

C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps.

5ths, from bass, go faintly narrower up to A3-E4 where they invert. Usually I go first up to C6, then from A3-E4 down the bass, so in this direction 5ths get less and less narrow (centre strings).

G#3-D#4 and A#3-F4 will be equal beating (as a reference).

From A3-E4 up, 5ths (on centre strings) get less and less narrow, while 4ths keep on getting wider. After G4-C5 4ths collaps. I use 5ths and octaves to go on, both very faintly progressive, octaves-beat rising in a shorter time, 5ths getting closer and closer to pure.

It takes a while for 5ths to get wide (Pre-form on centre strings). I check 10ths progression, starting from A3-C#5.
When I get to E5, I check my first 12ths A3-E5, it has to be pure (Pre-form on centre string).

I go up on centre strings with 5ths, octaves, 10ths and pure 12ths (on centre strings), up to the first 15th A3-A5. Then I have plenty of checks intervals, and I use all of them for what I need to do/hear.

When I get to C6 I go down, from A3 to C3 (or strings crossing). Then I check the whole three octaves Pre-form temperament (C3-C6 on centre strings), and start unisoning from C3 up. You may find this Pre-form sequence (not a must) in this thread.

Regards, a.c.
.










Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/08/10 01:15 AM

Thanks, Alfredo,

Okay, thanks. Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register.

I strip mute as much as possible, so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form.

I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.

It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.

In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.

I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.

Thanks for the feedback.

Glen
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/08/10 08:02 AM


Hello Glen,

You write:... "Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register."...

Yes, narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, on center strings.

..."I strip mute as much as possible,"...

I do not. I mute from midbass strings-crossing up to C6. I do not find larger muting and "one go" unisoning convenient, for stability, though it may be time saving.

..."so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form."...

Does Chas Pre-form mean “muting the strings”? No.

Chas Pre-form (Preparatory Tuning) is referred to a form where all wide intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 6ths, octaves, 10ths, 15ths and so on, beat a little faster, then narrow intervals are little less narrow. This Pre-form is drawn on center strings. Actually, 12ths are pure, 5ths get progressively pure and wide (on center strings).So:

- “a more accentuated tuning curve” answers “what” Pre-form is

- “muting” or “center strings tuning” answer “how” I draw Chas Pre-form

Is it like in pitch-raising? No

Chas Pre-form is (beat wise) the tuning form I must draw for gaining Chas ET.

Posted 12/16/2009: From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster (wide intervals) beat rate progression.

...“I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.”...

Careful. In my experience, only C3-F3 (4th) and C3-G3 (5th) have the same bps. I strongly suggest you to spend time for careful reading, before you need correcting yourself (takes longer).

...“It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.”...

Have you looked at the sequence? I set 5ths inversion together with A3-A4 and A3-D4 and E4-A4, right at the beginning. A3-E4 beats narrower than D4-A4.

...“In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.”...

I get the same beat rate on C3-F3 and C3-G3 as a result, so only a reference point, not a starting point, at least in my personal way. I’ve never tried starting from there…but who knows?

...“I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.”...

Let me know, a.c.
.
Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/08/10 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hello Glen,

You write:... "Your fifths go from narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, and narrower down the register."...

Yes, narrow-to-pure-to-wide up the register, on center strings.

..."I strip mute as much as possible,"...

I do not. I mute from midbass strings-crossing up to C6. I do not find larger muting and "one go" unisoning convenient, for stability, though it may be time saving.

..."so the center string is left unmuted - a non-issue - That is how I was taught, tune center strings first before unmuting to tune unisons. I suppose you call that pre-form."...

Does Chas Pre-form mean “muting the strings”? No.

Chas Pre-form (Preparatory Tuning) is referred to a form where all wide intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 6ths, octaves, 10ths, 15ths and so on, beat a little faster, then narrow intervals are little less narrow. This Pre-form is drawn on center strings. Actually, 12ths are pure, 5ths get progressively pure and wide (on center strings).So:

- “a more accentuated tuning curve” answers “what” Pre-form is

- “muting” or “center strings tuning” answer “how” I draw Chas Pre-form

Is it like in pitch-raising? No

Chas Pre-form is (beat wise) the tuning form I must draw for gaining Chas ET.

Posted 12/16/2009: From mid-section to the highest tones, I need to tune mid-strings at higher pitches, so that all check intervals, in those sections, will have a "preparatory" faster (wide intervals) beat rate progression.

...“I follow the paradigm (similar to Kent's article) to temper 4ths slightly wider than the tempered 5ths are narrow, proportional and progressive, not equal as you have it.”...

Careful. In my experience, only C3-F3 (4th) and C3-G3 (5th) have the same bps. I strongly suggest you to spend time for careful reading, before you need correcting yourself (takes longer).

...“It seems that when I do this, then apply a slight stretch to the octaves moving in each direction from the tempered section, there is no inversion of 5ths, they only beat slower as I move up the register - it simply does not invert any 4ths or 5ths above or below the tempered section.”...

Have you looked at the sequence? I set 5ths inversion together with A3-A4 and A3-D4 and E4-A4, right at the beginning. A3-E4 beats narrower than D4-A4.

...“In order for me to start to do what you suggest, I would have to make, for example, C3-F3 and C3-G3 have the same beat rate, between 1/2.5 and 1/3 bps - that is contrary to my novice training, and certainly not out of the realm of possibility to eventually add that method to my developing tool-box.”...

I get the same beat rate on C3-F3 and C3-G3 as a result, so only a reference point, not a starting point, at least in my personal way. I’ve never tried starting from there…but who knows?

...“I'll give it a try sometime and see what happens.”...

Let me know, a.c.
.


Thanks for sharing your own personal way when it comes to setting your intervals.

I am at the stage now in my tuning journey where developing a consistent tuning model (sequence of interval setting, sequence of checks, ensuring pin stability, with the intention of the piano producing a musical sound that satisfies my ear and enhances the customer's playing experience), is key...

...consequently, I've been paying close attention to setting the temperament using Bill's contiguous thirds and ET via Marpurg as the basis, and sticking pretty close to what Kent describes in his Every-Which-Way Temperament Sequence article - Thank you Kent and Bill!

At this early stage, the path I am on seems to be working pretty well, so at some point I will experiment with your method. I am just not that adroit to add a third method yet, but it is good to know there are many good sequences available such as yours.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and for sharing your time, Alfredo.

Glen



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 02:04 PM

Glen,

I'm sure you are doing well, tuning wise. I've heard your recordings, very good indeed.

If you like a more severe comment, add recording of chromatic intervals (the main ones, including 12ths and 15ths), played slowly (3 secs each), up to the 8th octave.

One colleague of ours asked for a "short description, summarizing the CHAS method to focus the attention on the important principle, to understand the system more quickly." I post my reply here too, in case it may be of some help:

About the method, i.e. the tuning sequence, the principles are:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustements (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About the system:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities (energy), so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for an optimum, resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats determine infinite sound atmospheres.

Using few words, Chas theory's approach is based on beats synchronism of only beating intervals, and synergy.

Soon I'll be writing about the string/pin/lever relation, as I think this may help controlling the effects of our tuning onto the piano's structure.

Regards, a.c.


Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 03:54 PM

Alfredo:

Several questions. The fourth one is really the point of this post.

1. When you speak of a preparatory tuning, do you mean what most American and Northern European tuners would call setting the bearing or setting the temperament, along with getting other notes close to the final form?

2. I'm starting to wonder if there is a separate tradition of Italian tuning and temperaments. Most of the temperaments I've examined come from Germany, France, England, and the U.S. Your terminology, and your love of metaphor, makes me wonder if Italy, or at least Sicily, has developed a parallel tradition. Who taught you to tune?

3. Was he or she in turn taught in a specific school or by a specific method that may have a name--something we could learn more about? Are there books by Italian tuners or theorists that you could point us to?

4. More specifically, I wonder about something that may seem cliched, and that I hope you will not find insulting: Is there is a tuning tradition in Italy that derives in part from accompanying singers, from bel canto? I ask this question because your playing, and tuning, have a vocal, singing quality. And your metaphor of the bow reminds me of a similar metaphor I've heard singers use when teaching about vocal projection.

Please understand that I am not not trying to flatter you by saying that your tuning sings. (But it does.) I'm instead trying to learn if there is a slightly separate Italian tradition, perhaps tied to opera and accompanying solo singers, that we can learn more about. (And I appreciate metaphors, but as Kent says, a written tuning sequence provides more precise information...)

I suspect that, behind all of this math and theory, there is
a love of singing, and a piano adapted to vocal performance. (I'm not trying to undermine your mathematical ideas--I'm praising the results, and curious to learn if the desired tone arises from a tradition.)
Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Glen,

I'm sure you are doing well, tuning wise. I've heard your recordings, very good indeed.

If you like a more severe comment, add recording of chromatic intervals (the main ones, including 12ths and 15ths), played slowly (3 secs each), up to the 8th octave.

One colleague of ours asked for a "short description, summarizing the CHAS method to focus the attention on the important principle, to understand the system more quickly." I post my reply here too, in case it may be of some help:

About the method, i.e. the tuning sequence, the principles are:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustements (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About the system:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities (energy), so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for an optimum, resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats determine infinite sound atmospheres.

Using few words, Chas theory's approach is based on beats synchronism of only beating intervals, and synergy.

Soon I'll be writing about the string/pin/lever relation, as I think this may help controlling the effects of our tuning onto the piano's structure.

Regards, a.c.




Thank you for your comments, Alfredo!

This past weekend, I had some extra time during one of my tunings in order experiment and learn better using some of your methods. Certainly, a wider octave stretch up the scale did contribute to the narrowed 5ths becoming more pure and the already wide 4ths becoming a bit wider. That was already happening somewhat. I found myself not wanting to have those 12ths go beyond pure above C6 or so. Perhaps it will require more practice or more stretch! Clearly, a console spinet will require a different (heavier) stretch than does a well-scaled grand piano.

Perhaps this weekend, time permitting, I will record those wider intervals (12ths) on another tuning on a grand and send them to you.

Pin and string setting are key components for me, as the stability of the tuning is accomplished there. I am wondering how the technique of pin/string setting in the unisons contributes to the string's (piano's) overall tone.

I am interested in learning more your experience(s)/method(s) in tuning unisons up and down the scale as a method of providing better tuning stability and maintaining interval widths as strings are brought up to pitch.

Single bass notes come last in the tuning for me, even after all the tri-chord unions are complete up to C8. Not sure why I do that, but it seems that the bass notes on a well-scaled piano contribute a great deal to the overall sound of the instrument. It might be that I do this to prevent stretching too much the bass, as I have had a tendency to hear a slight "roll" - (all that drama!) wink

BTW, I am a big fan of Kent's tuning sequences - a huge help for my speed and accuracy. Bill's ET via Marpug and progressive 3ds has been helpful as well.

Thank you, Alfredo. More tools for the toolbox for this novice!

Glen
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/10 09:50 PM

Hi all, because, I did not get the point immediately, when Afredo says the 5ths invert, he talk of the 5 ths beats of course (not of intervals that enlarge above just).

Glen , the 12 th stay on the tempered side, the 5ths may get wider in the high treble but not in an audible way.

Yes above pure at C6 the 12ths are substracting something to the tuning. But it happens depending of the way we tune.

In ALfredo's method they are tuned pure above C5 (C6 ? it depends of the initial pitch I guess) on the middle string so to settle afterthat when unisons are done.

When enlarging the medium it allow to stay with tempered twelves more easily, it is done often .. managing the enlarging is what is difficult.

It took me some time to read that correctly.

Till next ..

P.S Jack , I don't believe there is a really different method from Italian tuners, what makes Alfredo is almost very classical in fact (nothing really out of comprehension, nor far from usual way to tune, I may say more sticking to the rules , in fact (with coherent progressiveness of all intervals).

When listening to it or seeing it done, nothing stick out as unusual (but each action is weighted).



Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 06:39 AM

Yes, I should have read his sequence more closely.(I was carried away by my own metaphor of a singing piano?)

If I understand correctly, the 12ths can't used as checks below A3, since checking on 3:1 would give wider M5's than are desired in the tenor and bass. Are there any other checks for the ranges below that point, using 12ths or other intervals?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 09:40 AM

Hi Glen,

you write:..."Certainly, a wider octave stretch up the scale did contribute to the narrowed 5ths becoming more pure and the already wide 4ths becoming a bit wider."...

I'd better underline that I talk about centre strings tuning. 5ths transit pure in between C5 and C6, but very faintly. Once I tune unisons, I keep 12ths (delta-narrow) and 15ths (delta-wide) as the correct form's reference. Those intervals will conferm whether my stretch evaluation on centre strings was right or not.

..."That was already happening somewhat. I found myself not wanting to have those 12ths go beyond pure above C6 or so."...

After unisons, if 12ths have gone behond pure (wide), the high register sounds sour (tart? acrid?), 10ths and 17ths are like too salty, too nervous, almost shouting.

..."Clearly, a console spinet will require a different (heavier) stretch than does a well-scaled grand piano."...

I know it is hard to believe but, maybe by referring to always the same low partials, I do not need different stretchings on small pianos, nor a different beat-net, except for mid-bass if the scaling is very poor.

..."Pin and string setting are key components for me, as the stability of the tuning is accomplished there. I am wondering how the technique of pin/string setting in the unisons contributes to the string's (piano's) overall tone."...

A great deal, that contribute is vaste. Like voicing, unisons build up the sound body, unisons determine the sound's consistency and duration, together with the sound colour. Pin setting too is foundamental, tuning's stability and pin block singing go with pin Vs string balanced opposition. Make sure that the string's tension is coherently distributed along the three sections of the string.

..."I am interested in learning more your experience(s)/method(s) in tuning unisons up and down the scale as a method of providing better tuning stability and maintaining interval widths as strings are brought up to pitch."...

You mean the order of tuning. Indeed I think that the bridge and sound-board can better adjust in that way, the changes in loading/tension are better spread out.

..."Single bass notes come last in the tuning for me, even after all the tri-chord unions are complete up to C8."...

For me too. But at that end, after the bass, I check all unisons and refine the 8th octave.

..."BTW, I am a big fan of Kent's tuning sequences - a huge help for my speed and accuracy. Bill's ET via Marpug and progressive 3ds has been helpful as well."...

Very good and thanks, I like your enthusiasm.

a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 09:43 AM

Jake, all available intervals are checked, but in their primary beat, not by comparing beats of other intervals (hence not checking at different partial levels). for instance 5ths are listened for their 3:2 beat, not with a M6 M10 test (I know some will say it is the same !)

That is way quieter for the ear.
The idea also to check only intervals that follow each other and are not contiguous or in ladder, is easier, and install the tuner in close contact with the beat acceleration curves within the piano.

I have seen the method as being really closely in the "heart" of the subject at all times (assuming the final result wanted is understood)

I'll let Alfredo explain , so to avoid mistakes.


Because the process involves a good sence for beats speed (on one string) it may be used by beginners, they will probably learn more how to listen efficiently and understand what they have there

And when you finally have obtained a progressiveness of all beats while you did not use the usual test, you feel more confident (in the method and in your ability to realize it), that also is a good thing.


Isaac








Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kamin


I'll ask my Brother, which is violonist, what he think about large fifths (and small ones ! )


Hopefully he also have some humour ! Ill let you know what he say.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-parodies-transcriptions-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00166GMGS




My Bro's Raphaël Oleg (violonist) said that he liked your tuning, find it very smooth and gentle, while enlighted. (he asked if I had a grasp on the method, too..)



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/10 12:12 PM


Jake, you ask:

...1. When you speak of a preparatory tuning, do you mean what most American and Northern European tuners would call setting the bearing or setting the temperament, along with getting other notes close to the final form?

The Pre-tuning sets the Pre-temperament, and I do not distinguish the traditional one-or-two octaves temperament from the whole keyboard's. In other words, the Pre-tuning is my (attempted) final tuning, but the piano gets the final form, i.e. the final 88 keys temperament, only when I unison. The piano's final form (where the piano will adjust) is what I have in mind when tuning centre strings, and the Pre-tuning stretch (on centre strings) needs to be a little sharper from C4 up.

...2. I'm starting to wonder if there is a separate tradition of Italian tuning and temperaments. Most of the temperaments I've examined come from Germany, France, England, and the U.S. Your terminology, and your love of metaphor, makes me wonder if Italy, or at least Sicily, has developed a parallel tradition. Who taught you to tune?

I do not think we have a separate tradition. I use metaphores in the hope to explain myself, but also because pianos issues like tension, stretch, energy and accuracy, are part of my (our?) dayly life. I was helped by two Italians and three Japanese top tuners, Otani sun, Saida sun, Osato sun.

...3. Was he or she in turn taught in a specific school or by a specific method that may have a name--something we could learn more about? Are there books by Italian tuners or theorists that you could point us to?

I think the Japanese ones may have got some hints from Germany. About Italian books, I can certainly point them to you if you wish, in the three I read I found the same mistakes about octaves and fifths, and no concern of what I'm describing.

...4. More specifically, I wonder about something that may seem cliched, and that I hope you will not find insulting: Is there is a tuning tradition in Italy that derives in part from accompanying singers, from bel canto? I ask this question because your playing, and tuning, have a vocal, singing quality. And your metaphor of the bow reminds me of a similar metaphor I've heard singers use when teaching about vocal projection.

For sure, in Italy there is a strong singing tradition. Opera singers from all over the world come to Italy for refining their technique. I like singing too but my in tune urge derives from my ear. So, I can only tell you about my family tradition, one orchestra director, one singer and many amatorial musicians.

Vocal projection has similar sounds issues: control and balancing of body tensions (piano structure), tone building (unisons), resonance of the head cavities (pin-block singing).

..."I suspect that, behind all of this math and theory, there is a love of singing, and a piano adapted to vocal performance."...

My case is a bit more extreme. I do like singing and I've got a bad desease: music in all its forms, and rhythms. When I compare beats I am on a rhythm-level, I'm there with all my intention while my ear is the supervisor.

..."(I'm not trying to undermine your mathematical ideas--I'm praising the results, and curious to learn if the desired tone arises from a tradition.)"...

Do not worry, I find you very polite. Thank you, a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 11:01 AM

I have always used 12ths as a limit for stretch. As I am actually getting the use of the method and sequence Alfredo use, I am changing the way I consider that.
SO my answers can only be temporary !

The first octave enlarge very little, the beat begin very late. In my usual way, I let the piano and room acoustic decide of the width of that first octave (F3-F4) and check it with 6:3 4:2 with approx 1/3 bps at 4:2 level. But I have seenn and used more than that, up to 1/2 bps, and some concert tunings I've seen (a little extreme but very sonorous) had more than 1Bps. The beats are hiding in the spectra, they only push the resonance of the ocatve. If they are slow enough they couple after a little time, and the octave is heard as pure.

For what I know on a moderately stretched temperament octave all octaves toward up are highly stretched in the "standard" German Steinway concert tuning ("stretch to the max, but coherent") As much as the spectra of the piano can accept.

Hence those too vivid major harmonies in the 5th octave that can be heard in slow moves sometime.

Stretching on a well open medium lower the speed the RBI raises, and provide more global coherence.

The unison quality is more than part of the stretch in fact. their projection "push the spectra" more or less high depending of the way they are build. I wonder if we can call "opening of the unison" the fact that center string is related to the wanted justness, while the outer strings are dealing with the iH and are more or less in the high end of the spectra.

Coupling the partials, is not always allowing the fundamental to couple as soon, hence the opening of the tone.

In may usual way, I use a strong fundamental coupling that projects the whole spectra (attack tuning), then only I body the tone. (the sensation may be felt under the fingers)

That makes for 2 actions (and once coming from under) while coming from above at any time seemm more stable and keep the charging of the pinblock optimum.
At some moment the attack is also tuned, (taking the question from the opposite) it is because of the time needed for the coupling of the partials, it enlarge the attack time.

What I dont get is that I was believing that I acted on the first millisecond of tone, while there they are a consequence of the remaining, the tone is bodied from too open, if I get well the point. I may say that getting use to recognize the flow of energy within the string is a real shortcut to unisons, but the tone may be "wedged" afterthat, the other end of the spectra open. (as when correcting unisons on a concert piano).
I hope I'll get by with something more analytic after more tunings.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 01:28 PM


Hello Isaac,

I thank your Brother and you for reporting his comment. It will be meaningfull for me to also know whether he finds Chas Theory's approach (sections 2.0, 3.0) shareable or somehow obscure.

..."I have always used 12ths as a limit for stretch...I am changing the way I consider that."...

For stretch, I was used to evaluating RBIs and follow my ear for judging how much "salt" (stretch) wanting to add. Today I'm used to evaluating RBIs, add a little bit more salt in consideration of piano's dynamics, up untill I get the first 12th, A3-E5. There I get the Pre-tuning stretch's measure.

..."SO my answers can only be temporary !"...

This is grasping! Indeed a challenge, how can it be possible to grasp Time? Going along its version-in-version (O).

..."The first octave enlarge very little, the beat begin very late."...

Yes, the slow beat-rolling raises after almost 2 secs.

..."The beats are hiding in the spectra, they only push the resonance of the octave."...

Yes, nice way of describing it. All partials, in the octave intervals, want to sing. Or, the octave can sing and deliver all partial sounds in the natural order and the most lyrical way.

..."If they are slow enough they couple after a little time, and the octave is heard as pure."...

Yes, partials only need to be sung/displayed by the octave.

..."The unison quality is more than part of the stretch in fact. Their projection "push the spectra" more or less high depending of the way they are build."...

Yes, unisons can change the whole outcome.

..."I wonder if we can call "opening of the unison" the fact that center string is related to the wanted justness, while the outer strings are dealing with the iH and are more or less in the high end of the spectra."...

Open or close is in fact what we can do with the sound's body, by unisonsing.

..."Coupling the partials, is not always allowing the fundamental to couple as soon, hence the opening of the tone."...

Yes, like if partials were drained away.

..."In my usual way, I use a strong fundamental coupling that projects the whole spectra (attack tuning), then only I body the tone. (the sensation may be felt under the fingers)"...

I bear in mind two targets: sound duration and colour univocity all along the keyboard, wich I check using the "diabolus in musica": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone

..."That makes for 2 actions (and once coming from under) while coming from above at any time seemm more stable and keep the charging of the pinblock optimum.
At some moment the attack is also tuned, (taking the question from the opposite) it is because of the time needed for the coupling of the partials, it enlarge the attack time."...

From above is how I get unisons. Turn the pin clock-wise the right amount, charge the pin anticlock-wise just a little over, i.e. little little flat, release and accompany the pin on the desired point, the correct energy relation between the string's pulling and the pin's charge. As for centre strings, also the unisons must be the correct outcome of energy balance. BTW Isaac, do you play billiards?

..."I may say that getting use to recognize the flow of energy within the string is a real shortcut to unisons, but the tone may be "wedged" afterthat, the other end of the spectra open. (as when correcting unisons on a concert piano)."...

Oh, this last one, for once, I do not get what you mean!

Best regards, Alfredo.

.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/10 07:20 PM

Jake, you wrote:

..."If I understand correctly, the 12ths can't used as checks below A3, since checking on 3:1 would give wider M5's than are desired in the tenor and bass. Are there any other checks for the ranges below that point, using 12ths or other intervals?"...

Below A3, i.e. tuning G#3 and down, I use 4ths (wide, pro-slackening), 5ths (narrow, pro-slackening), 6ths (pro-slackening), octaves (pro-widening), and check 10ths (pro-slackening) and so on. From C3 down, Chas 4ths invert and get wider and wider.

Isaac, you write:

..."Because the process involves a good sence for beats speed (on one string) it may be used by beginners, they will probably learn more how to listen efficiently and understand what they have there."...

Too often I've seen tuners very much concerned with beats, fearing they would not hear them, fearing to turn their lever and depart from a point, where they had causally got, wich they may never find again. In my opinion, the whole approach needs to be different.

..."And when you finally have obtained a progressiveness of all beats while you did not use the usual test, you feel more confident (in the method and in your ability to realize it), that also is a good thing."...

You are right (O). Using normal tests, we try to check some sort of equal beating, true?

Now, what is more difficult, guessing equal beating or progressiveness of chromatic intervals? Are we better in detecting equality or diversity?

About equality, we may swear two beats are equal, while not perceiving the infinitesimal long-time difference. About diversity, if we hear two different beats, say one little faster than the second one, how many chances that we are wrong are there? And that we confuse slower with faster?

Even leaving tests and exposure to iH aside, in my opinion, guessing equal beating is a hard task, it opens to errors and the banal approximations + settlings are going to sum up.

So I'd say that comparative progressiveness may be the truest and most vivid confirmation that I'm gaining my favorite tuning, ops, Pre-tuning form.

Regards, a.c.

.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/21/10 09:44 PM


Isaac,

you were wondering about energy.

On this subject, I found of interest this reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_energy

and the book example too: "When the book hits the floor this kinetic energy is converted into heat and sound by the impact."

Regards, a.c.

P.S.: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89nergie_potentielle

.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/22/10 10:08 AM


You may agree on one (O) foundamental factor : Relating Time or Timing.

I was a child when I was taught that every action demands its own time (do you know of any home-saying?). Only later on I could relate this principle to myself and to my actions result, depending on the object.

As for many situations now, also when I turn and charge a pin, I know I have to look for the best Time relation between what I do and how, and the effects of what I’m doing.

Many pins have their own reaction-time, each pin may demand its own time for me to charge it.

The time I spend for tightening the string, turning the pin clock-wise, from flat up to the spot and wide, it is also the time I need for "reading" the single pin’s behaviour and it may as well be the time the pin itself needs for re-adjusting its structure.


.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/24/10 06:10 PM

Alfredo:

I'm having some problems working with the Scala file for CHas in PianoTeq, partly because I'm still trying to understand CHas, and partly because I'm still trying to understand some of the intricacies of Scala:

1. I know that you don't set a separate bearing or temperament before tuning, but Scala requires that one start the tuning on one pitch. By default, that pitch is middle C. I'm not sure that's the best place to start. Would A3, the A below A=440, be a better place?

2. Does the s1 offset occur at each octave, or does it come at the start of each unit of 24 notes?

Thanks. (The Scala file that was posted on the PianoTeq site may be fine. I'm just having trouble believing that it was so easy for someone to create and get right the first time.)


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 07:52 AM


Hello Jake,

..."1. I know that you don't set a separate bearing or temperament before tuning, but Scala requires that one start the tuning on one pitch. By default, that pitch is middle C. I'm not sure that's the best place to start. Would A3, the A below A=440, be a better place?"...

Only logically speacking (+ pinch of salt), it should make no difference whether you start from mid-C or another place.

..."2. Does the s1 offset occur at each octave, or does it come at the start of each unit of 24 notes?"...

I do not really know, it may depend on how the S-file expandes the unit, and/or if you can control that. One more trial could be made with 49 notes, wich is the Chas symmetry compass (R-report, section 3.4). There, by taking the semitone 24 as the centre, you gain two 15ths (+ delta, 0-24 and 24-48) and four 12ths (minus-delta). I wish I knew what S-file really needs...

..."(The Scala file that was posted on the PianoTeq site may be fine. I'm just having trouble believing that it was so easy for someone to create and get right the first time.)"...

Good approach, let's believe with a small b...he wrote "I'm impressed by the increase of harmonic resonance you get with this temperament."...but of course, that could be relative...I look forward to hearing some tests and, as you suggest, to analysing in depth.

Thank you, a.c.

.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 02:54 PM

All:

I read what the on line Pianoteq manual had to say about inharmonicity. I hope it is applied better than it was written about. Phrases something like: So called inharmonicity..., People say that manufacturese want to get rid of all inharmonicity..., and The 33 foot piano would have practically no inharmonicity... Have me wondering how iH is dealt with in the simulation.

If someone could post the frequencies of the 3rd and 4th partials of the As of a tuning I could crunch the numbers and let everyone know how they are dealing with iH.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/10 04:52 PM

Hi, Jeff. My impression is that the PianoTeq stretch matches on different partials in different ranges.

Regardless, here are the freqs for the 3rd and 4th partials of the A's for the PianoTeq C3, with the default stretching applied and the temperament set to ET. (One thing: PianoTeq uses Middle C = C3. Thus A3=440. I've retaining that nomenclature below.)

A-1: 82 110
A0: 165 220
A1: 330 440
A2: 660 881
A3: 1324 1770
A4: 2672 3590
A5: 5486 7488
A6: 11895 16916

It's also possible to turn off the stretching in PianoTeq, so that it's tuned to straight ET. Let me know if you want me to post the freqs with that setting, too.

Cheers.
Posted By: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 10:09 AM



Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
All:
I read what the on line Pianoteq manual had to say about inharmonicity. I hope it is applied better than it was written about. Phrases something like: So called inharmonicity..., People say that manufacturese want to get rid of all inharmonicity..., and The 33 foot piano would have practically no inharmonicity... Have me wondering how iH is dealt with in the simulation.


Hi Jeff,
Philippe Guillaume from Modartt here. My first post here I think, so Hello to everybody smile

Here is what we wrote in the manual:
"A parameter which greatly affects the timbre (and the tuning) is the so-called inharmonicity: the more inharmonic the strings, the more the overtone frequencies of each string are driven away from their theoretical values f, 2f, 3f... and the more the piano sound will resemble a bell.
Inharmonicity decreases very rapidly with string length. Experiment by changing the String length. The difference will be most evident in the bass range. You can choose up to a 10 meter long piano! At such a size, there is almost no more inharmonicity. People say that piano manufacturers dreamed of producing pianos without inharmonicity..." (this was a bit of a humoristic touch, being myself piano tuner)

And also:
“A unique feature of Pianoteq is that tuning does not follow a pre-computed frequency table (except for the flat temperament), but takes into account the inharmonicity of the strings, in the same way a piano tuner does with acoustic pianos. Hence, the consonance of the notes is improved and the chords have a fuller and richer sound.”

Back to the subject of this thread, I would like to point the fact that for those who want to experiment the CHAS tuning in Pianoteq, they can use SCALA files and load them in Pianoteq, and if the last note in the SCALA file has a value different from 1200.0 (or 2/1), then the inharmonicity will be by-passed and the frequencies will be exactly those specified in the SCALA file. Thus exact experimenting is possible.

Here is how to proceed after creating your own scala file (below an example of an 88 notes scala file content):
- tuning section, click on the "mu" microtuning button
- import the SCALA file via the "scale" menu
- choose "88 notes scale" in the keymap menu

Example of flat tuning 88 SCALA file, copy paste the content between the dotted lines and name the file allnotesflat.scl:
-------------------------------------------------------------
! allnotesflat.scl
!
all notes flat temperament
87
!
100.0
200.0
300.0
400.0
500.0
600.0
700.0
800.0
900.0
1000.0
1100.0
1200.0
1300.0
1400.0
1500.0
1600.0
1700.0
1800.0
1900.0
2000.0
2100.0
2200.0
2300.0
2400.0
2500.0
2600.0
2700.0
2800.0
2900.0
3000.0
3100.0
3200.0
3300.0
3400.0
3500.0
3600.0
3700.0
3800.0
3900.0
4000.0
4100.0
4200.0
4300.0
4400.0
4500.0
4600.0
4700.0
4800.0
4900.0
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7300.0
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-------------------------------------------------------------
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 12:37 PM

Philippe:

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for quoting the manual. I did not think it would be appropriate for me to. It will be interesting to see what results I get from the numbers that Jake provided.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 03:17 PM

All:

Here are the calculated iH values appended to the list of frequencies for the 3rd and 4th partials that Jake graciously provided:

A-1: 82 110, iH 1.5 (see note)
A0: 165 220, iH 0.0 (see note)
A1: 330 440, iH 0.0 (see note)
A2: 660 881, iH 0.28 (see note)
A3: 1324 1770, iH 0.66
A4: 2672 3590, iH 1.89
A5: 5486 7488, iH 5.79
A6: 11895 16916, iH 15.94

NOTE: The iH values for the lower notes could not be accurately calculated due to lack of decimal places for the frequencies of the partials.

The general slope from A2 to A6 shows the iH doubling about every 8 semitones which is appropriate. Below A2 the slope cannot be determined due to the inaccuracy of the iH calculation.

Philippe:

What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 03:19 PM

Hi, Philippe. Thanks for the explanation of how to set up PianoTeq with an 88 note scale.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 03:25 PM

3: 1324 1770, iH 0.66 at A49 is pretty standard for a modern instrument.
(I've find 0.7 with tunelab spectra analysis, but the accuracy on a pocket pc is probably so so.



Posted By: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Philippe:

What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?


Jeff, it is a V with a lower point that can vary depending on the instrument that is modelled. This lower point shifts to the left when you increase the piano size (string length parameter in the interface). For some particular historical instruments, it's more complicate than a V as there are sometimes some sudden discontinuities (broken curve).
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 04:23 PM

Thanks, Philippe:

Great! It seems that the simulator should reproduce the tuning of a well scaled piano.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 07:45 PM


Hello Philippe,

I Thank you very much for your involvement and for your help on how to load Chas in Pianoteq.

The opportunity to experiment this temperament can make a great difference, since it may reveal some of this model's qualities and limitations.

Knowing about Pianoteq performances and your experience in piano tuning has been good news for me, as it is not easy to find a reliable device nor someone with both maths and tuning skills.

Chas, as many theoretical models, is meant to translate practical observations and, in this case, what I could experiment throughout my tunings.

About the chance to analyse in depth and share this new approach to the sound scale and its practical effects, I shall welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may be able to offer, at any time.

Best regards, a.c.

.


Posted By: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/10 09:52 PM

Hi Alfredo,
it's my pleasure if I can help you in some way. If ever you need precise information on the inharmonicity of a particular piano model of Pianoteq to build scala files (knowing that inharmonicity is by-passed in Pianoteq as soon as the last note is not 1200.0), do not hesitate asking me and I will provide you with the values.
Cheers,
Philippe
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 04:25 AM

Hmm. May be another problem. If iH vanishes when the last note in a Scala file isn't 2x the freq of the first, iH will be turned off in PTeq when CHas is used. That's one of the things that needed testing, if I understand correctly--how the CHas temperament interacts with iH.

If an offset was specified in an 11 freq Scala file, instead of an entry that didn't equal 2X, would PTeq still detect the change on note 12, and shut off iH?
Posted By: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 09:07 AM

Jake, in that case (11 notes with the 11th not being 2/1) iH will be taken into account.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 09:32 AM

Jake, the iH cant be "shut down'" in my opinion, as it is a composante of the tone. a piano tone without iH may well be unrecognizeable as a piano tone (that would be an interesting test BTW)

To me, what is aborted is the use of the iH correction formula, that allow the intervals as octaves, double,s triples, to have less beats produced by the partials.
Philippe tells that it is done "as by a tuner" that mean when listening for an octave the tuner try to have it "beatless" so he tune the top note a little high of the exact 1/2 ratio, so the partials of the top note rub the less with the partials of the lower note. what size of octave daoes it provide I will know in amoment.

We can use the anglo saxon tuners terminology to "name" the octaves in regard of the way the partials are matching.
For instance if the 2nd partial of the bottom note match the first partial (funamental) of the top note of the ocatve, the ocatve is said 2:1 , if the octave is ruled an octave above the 4th partial of the bottom note join the second of the top note it is an 4:2 octave, following are 6:3 8:4 10:5 octaves, the concept say that the size (opening) of the octave vary depending of the partial match. It works up to some point, as the result is a coupling of those partials with the coupling of the real 2:1 relation that is also installed in, anyway.

Practically this emphasis the tone of the said partial, which is not always the best thing. The defect of the method is that the partials strenght vary with the voicing, so not the same combination apply in any case, and also the tuner's ear when too much trained to listen in thos high pitched regions, tend to forget to listen more fundamentally, some intervals can be "driven by the noze" in the end...

The same apply when tuning unisons in my opinion : the fundamental couple, and the partials coupling is added to that to open the tone. My usual way to tune unison by regulation of the stabilisation time of the partials install a coupling without listening much to the high partials, but with an assessment of how the energy of the attack is spread and in how much time it stabilize. Those are tactile sensations as well as listening) . But then it is easy to leave whistles in the high regions, with that approach or to have a strong tone which is mostly focused on fundamental strength, closed with lot of energy immediately.


My guess/theory is that if a tuning have a set of relation that use a "natural equilibrium between the partials, this may well contrary the iH of the piano. The strings have iH because of their stiffness, cant they tend to vibe and produce natural harmonics or no ? if so providing them a support or a fundation will help the frequencies to couple toward those (as all the frequencies tend to couple, they dont try to go apart from each other)


Then in the best case, the "natural" tuning would be provided by the center string, the coupling of the external ones taking in account the ih (focusing on the 2-3-4-4 partial match more than on fundamental. When well done the 2outer strings finish at the same exact pitch, while they dont have been tuned together (but each have been tuned to the center string)

This is what can be called "bodying the tone" . As a result, the stabilization of the attack is somehow delayed (later), but the strenght sensation remain, simply a little later. (to my trained ears, I have no idea of the time involved it may count in milliseconds I suppose)

I hope I have made a correct description of an "open" tone.

































In theory , this apply, but it is also a somewhat simplist explanation, as the voicin


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 10:19 AM

Hi Jake,

just some questions, following what Philippe wrote when he was asked:

"What sort of slope is used for iH in the bass? Does the slope resemble a straight line from note 1 to note 88 on a log graph, or is it somewhat “V” shaped like the iH slope of actual pianos?

Philippe's: "Jeff, it is a V with a lower point that can vary depending on the instrument that is modelled. This lower point shifts to the left when you increase the piano size (string length parameter in the interface)."...

Today you write:..."That's one of the things that needed testing, if I understand correctly--how the CHas temperament interacts with iH."...

You are exactly on the crucial issue, and I can add only some logical elaborations that lead to more questions.

If the lower point of the iH's slope can shift to the left, depending on the increase of the string's lenth, what will the iH's slope resemble, when using the longest string?

Is the usual iH slope normally referred to 2:1 ratio? What happens when the bass frequencies and consequent strings tension are lowered, like in Chas? Is iH decreased? Should we expect the same frequencies deviation for the high notes?

About approximations: if the string's iH can be decreased (by lowering the bass strings tension and/or increasing the string's length), should we use always the same iH parameter? Should we expect the same iH's slope? The same iH that doubles every 8 semitones? Does not the semitone variate, depending on the incremental ratio?

When do we say "well scaled piano"? Only when we find the usually expected frequencies deviations? Can iH be controlled (spread?), string after string, by playing with string's lengths and diameters (first) and eventually tensions (read frequencies)?

Isaac, I'll add on your good points later.

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 10:46 AM

In my comprehension of the thing, when you lower the tension on a given string on agiven piano, you lower the elasticity of the wire, its stiffness raise, hence the iH.

But this is a simplist point of view.

And I suggest that the differnce when tuning with this or that "stretch" is too minimal to be effective at the iH range in an audible way.

I see more resonance quality related to coupling, and harmonic quality related to coherence in beat relations.


In scaling we try to keep the ih at a moderate level at A49 then check the progressivness to avoid jumps. But tension , iH and wire constrain are intimely related, as the fact that the wire may not stretch with too much variability or the piano will loose its tuning more easily with seasonal changes.
So in the end for a given sacle lenght not so many choices remain. Certainly some prefer high tension scales and other low tension. iH level will differ in those cases, but stay coherent within the instrument.

The lenght of the strings rule the remaining (but I did not really work on scaling as some that rescale pianos.

When talking with one of the engineer from Bechstein he said to me that there is much more in soundboard, case, and even plate behaviour than in scaling, assuming some basic rules are respected for the latest. the "rescaling trend" make him smile in that regard (but not all pianos have an ideal scale even now) .
We can have a few choices with wire style (stiffness and resistance, timbral behaviour)

One of the parameters that relate to iH and that was not much discussed is the wire constrain, or "sollicitation". It can raise to very high levels vs. the breaking limit of the wire, as it lower the iH and provide a better mechanical behaviour (more elasticity), as for Sauter pianos, if I belive in what have been said to me)
I suppose that it may relate to soundboard stiffness and impedance, then.
Those points are out of my focus by now.

High tension scale may be for instance Fazioli if my basics are good. low tension may be Bechstein.

......









Posted By: pianophil

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 04:27 PM

Isaac, thanks for your remark, I wasn't clear when mentioning that iH would be taken into account or not in Pianoteq. What I meant is that iH will be taken into account or not for the tuning depending on the value of the last note in the scala file. But of course, in all cases, the notes will have their normal iH when played in Pianoteq.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kamin
...Practically, [matching partials] emphasizes the tone of the said partial, which is not always the best thing. The defect of the method is that the partials strenght vary with the voicing, so not the same combination apply in any case, and also the tuner's ear when too much trained to listen in thos high pitched regions, tend to forget to listen more fundamentally, some intervals can be "driven by the noze" in the end...

The same apply when tuning unisons in my opinion : the fundamental couple, and the partials coupling is added to that to open the tone. My usual way to tune unison by regulation of the stabilisation time of the partials install a coupling without listening much to the high partials, but with an assessment of how the energy of the attack is spread and in how much time it stabilize. Those are tactile sensations as well as listening) . But then it is easy to leave whistles in the high regions, with that approach or to have a strong tone which is mostly focused on fundamental strength, closed with lot of energy immediately.

My guess/theory is that if a tuning have a set of relation that use a "natural equilibrium between the partials, this may well contrary the iH of the piano. The strings have iH because of their stiffness, cant they tend to vibe and produce natural harmonics or no ? if so providing them a support or a fundation will help the frequencies to couple toward those (as all the frequencies tend to couple, they dont try to go apart from each other)

Then in the best case, the "natural" tuning would be provided by the center string, the coupling of the external ones taking in account the ih (focusing on the 2-3-4-4 partial match more than on fundamental. When well done the 2outer strings finish at the same exact pitch, while they dont have been tuned together (but each have been tuned to the center string)

This is what can be called "bodying the tone" . As a result, the stabilization of the attack is somehow delayed (later), but the strenght sensation remain, simply a little later. (to my trained ears, I have no idea of the time involved it may count in milliseconds I suppose) I hope I have made a correct description of an "open" tone.


May I ask questions about the specifics of the unison tuning for CHas, just to be sure that I understand?

1. Kamin speaks of the unisons not matching on a single partial. How precisely are the outer strings pitched slightly differently to emphasize (through equal beating) specific partials on the center string? One outer string beats equally with partial 1 and 4, for example, and the other beats equally with partial 3 and 6, making the tone evolve towards consonance so that the energy isn't dissipated too fast? In other words, do you listen for these specific beats as you tune the upper unisons? (I understand that they are coupled, also, so that per Weinreich, their interaction in time is actually more complex than I'm acknowledging. I'm just trying to understand the intended pitching of the outer strings as heard during tuning.)

2. How far have people gone in the direction of reducing the "stretch" in tunings and using the raised unisons to reduce the perceived iH? In other words, I can imagine a piano tuned with very little stretch in the upper regions (and CHas has less than some tunings), if the unisons pull the perceived pitch higher by beating with harmonic partials. Are there specific tunings or mistunings or discussions\experiments in this direction that anyone could point me towards? ( I can imagine things like lowering the tension\diapason very slightly and then making the unisons raise the perceived pitch.)

(As an aside: I experimented with pushing that idea a little further one night in PianoTeq, lowering the pitch of some notes past narrowing the octaves, so some notes wavered near flat, and then pushing their unisons up so the notes sounded "in tune." Blame the wine, please. It may be a bad idea, but the sound was not always terrible. Past a certain point, of course, the note just stays flat, but I'm still playing around with this, willing to follow a bad idea to its logical conclusion just to see where the road gets muddy.)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/27/10 11:15 PM


Hi Jake, you write:

..."May I ask questions about the specifics of the unison tuning for CHas, just to be sure that I understand?

1. Kamin speaks of the unisons not matching on a single partial. How precisely are the outer strings pitched slightly differently to emphasize (through equal beating) specific partials on the center string?"...

I tune the outer strings a little wide. More precisely, while going from wide to the spot, I can hear the partials of the harmonic series. When they reduce in number, I distinguish the point where I hear the 4th, the 3rd and the 2nd.

With my lever, I go anti-clock a little more, so to end charging the pin, then I want the 2nd partial to beam with the foundamental tone of the note I'm unisoning. This, in my experience, gains the longest tone-sustain.

..."2. How far have people gone in the direction of reducing the "stretch" in tunings and using the raised unisons to reduce the perceived iH?"...

I can not answer, I simply do not know.

..."Are there specific tunings or mistunings or discussions\experiments in this direction that anyone could point me towards? ( I can imagine things like lowering the tension\diapason very slightly and then making the unisons raise the perceived pitch.)"...

I do not like raising unisons, unless I find a dead-tone, a bad key with poor sound. No clue about discussions/experiments.

..."I experimented with pushing that idea a little further one night in PianoTeq, lowering the pitch of some notes past narrowing the octaves, so some notes wavered near flat, and then pushing their unisons up so the notes sounded "in tune."...

Also in my experience, mid-register unisons raise the three-chord pich, but when you increase the string's tension you also increase the load onto the bridge, and this effects the nearby piches, especially in the high register.

..."willing to follow a bad idea to its logical conclusion just to see where the road gets muddy."

That is nice, in a way I did the same. When I could not stand anymore my flattening tunings, I left the road my ear would suggest and went for that mud. Today I can gain Chas form only if I tune a wider stretch, the Pre-form.

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 12:49 PM

Alfredo:

In another Topic you posted ”I'd better precise: 4ths beat very much in the bass, progressive slowering up to C3 and progressive fastening, going up. At C5 4ths collaps. 5ths go the way you say, "fastest in the middle of the piano and slower to the ends". Actually, at the ends 5ths sound pure, this gives you an idea of how slow they beat, of how little they can be narrow. But in Pre-tuning (centre string), high 5ths get wide.

OK, I seem to have misunderstood the beat rate progression of the 4ths and 5ths when you tune. This makes much more sense. When 4ths get slower, 5ths must get faster and visa versa. And the faster the 4ths are in relation to the 5ths, the wider the octave type. So the progression of 4ths and 5ths indicate the widest octave type at the ends and the narrowest in the middle.

This type of tuning is inconsistent with equal beating 12ths and 15ths which call for a general narrowing of the octave type while going up in the treble. But then, if I understand you correctly, this is the “Chas Preparatory Tuning” which when after the unisons are tuned, produces equal beating 12ths and 15ths. I did make a post a while ago about a possible explanation for how the tuning could change when tuning unison, but since I have never experienced this I am going to continue to consider this to be an “Indulgent Mystery.”
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 02:24 PM

Ohi Jeff, good news.

..."When 4ths get slower, 5ths must get faster and visa versa."...

Yes, From the bass up to C3. Here, 4ths get faster and 5ths too continue to get faster up to A3-E4. I'm glad if you get this and I apologize if my English was not correct.

you write:..."This type of tuning is inconsistent with equal beating 12ths and 15ths which call for a general narrowing of the octave type while going up in the treble."...

Actually, Prepare-Chas octaves are S shaped, so 5ths from the bass can go narrower up to mid-range, then invert and go less and less narrow.

..."But then, if I understand you correctly, this is the “Chas Preparatory Tuning” which when after the unisons are tuned, produces equal beating 12ths and 15ths."...

Yes.

..."I did make a post a while ago about a possible explanation for how the tuning could change when tuning unison,"...

Sorry... maybe if I had read that.

..."but since I have never experienced this I am going to continue to consider this to be an “Indulgent Mystery.”"...

Wait Jeff. The "Indulgent Mystery" may be how ET octaves can not be progressive and how ET 12ths and 15ths can routinely (and out of rule) be inverted in the high register, i.e. what has been repeatedly written in Chas main Topic.

Also an "Indulgent Mystery" may be how 4ths and 5ths should be tuned when tempering what ever ET temperament-module, and down C3, where I'm stating that Chas 4ths invert.

Anyway, today I think I was told about quasi-ET, so for me it is not really a mystery anymore. If I may suggest, do experience the Prepare-Tuning.

a.c.



Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 02:36 PM

Alfredo:

Look at my post on 21.12.09, this Topic.

"S-shaped octaves" do not tell me much. But saying if the fifths become wide of just intonation does. Do the fifths become wide of just intonation or not???? Some of your posts seem to say one thing and some another. If the fifths become just, then the 12ths are wide of just unless only some octaves are narrow which would then mean that it is probably not ET.

And I am the one that gets to choose what I consider to be an "Indulgent Mystery."
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 03:24 PM

http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/beats.html

Have an ear at what is presented as correctly tuned beat rates for 3 octaves C-4-5 played together :
http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/sounds/coctpart.mp3




Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/10 07:56 PM

(This is just an aside\interruption, but one that I hope I can make here for the people who are experimenting with Pianoteq. It's available at an academic discount--if you are affiliated with a school or university, there's a different pricing scale. I don't know what the adjustment is. There's a form to fill out at http://www.pianoteq.com/faq?pianoteq=e76fed63871b9bef6603314640867334 . I'm not part of Modartt, by the way. Just a user and fan. The program seems to be a natural match for these discussions. Cheers.)

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 09:03 AM


Jeff, you ask:

..."Do the fifths become wide of just intonation or not?"...

Yes, on centre strings Pre-Tuning, very slowly-progressive wide. But after unisons you want 5ths to sound just.

Then, it is better to distinguish what may be needed for the piano to release Chas, from what Chas Form is, which is the point of this thread.

Whether Chas theory can be conventionally said to be ET I'd say yes, since all semitones are numerically equal in size. And in practice too, RBI are "ET" progressive.

For tuning this ET you may start following some "technical" instructions, even if in bits and peaces.

..."And I am the one that gets to choose what I consider to be an "Indulgent Mystery."...

Ok, but since it is a patent, you'll have to correspond the partials rights, 3 and 4, all together US $7.00.

- . - . - . -

...People who are experimenting with Pianoteq. It's available at an academic discount--if you are affiliated with a school or university, there's a different pricing scale.

Thanks Jake for this information and for the link above.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 12:22 PM

Alfredo:

”Ok, but since it is a patent, you'll have to correspond the partials rights, 3 and 4, all together US $7.00.”

I will gladly pay your price for the patent rights on the term “Indulgent Mystery” next time I am in Augusta Bay. Perhaps in liquid refreshment at one of the cafes I fondly remember?
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 12:45 PM

I'm still trying to learn more about the unison technique. I know that you and Kamin have explained it, and that it has a history. I'm sorry if I seem to be asking the same question several times, but:

1. If the unisons are pitched very slightly higher, so that they have partials that beat equally with partials on the center string, is their fundamental also beating against the fundamental of the center string?

2. Assuming that the answer is yes, is the perceived pitch of the "note" raised to the pitch half-way between the pitch of the center string and the pitches (which may differ) of the unisons? Which means that the perceived pitch emerges from the beating fundamentals and partials of the three strings.

3. Is it thus true to say that, in this method of tuning, there is no one string in the trichord that, if plucked, would be at the same pitch as the pitch heard when all three strings are played together?

4. The 12'ths are slightly flat across the keyboard, if I understand correctly. Should they, after the unisons are tuned in this way, be heard as just? Should some of them, at least, such as above A440?

5.Are the two outer strings usually in unison with one another (as just as possible), or are they pitched to beat with different partials on the center string. Or does this vary, according to the piano and overall tone desired?

Thanks Alfredo and Kamin. Love the sound of the pianos.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 01:03 PM

Jake:

I know your questions are to Alfredo and Isaac, but perhaps I can give another view point.

If any one partial of two strings in a unison are at the same frequency, then all the partials of the two strings of the unison are at the same frequency. This is because the strings have the same physical characteristics, and should have the same inharmonicity.

But when two or more strings of a unison are not at the same frequency when played separately, but very close, when they are played together they can "couple" or "pull' each other into vibrating in phase and at the same frequency. This can give a certain color to the tone, especially at the attack when the coupling takes place. And since the piano is really a percussion instrument the mind remembers this color and attributes it to the decay portion of the sound as well.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 01:47 PM


Jeff, good that you took me back to that post of yours.

You wrote:..."I understand that measurements of frequencies of single strings have been compared to a tuned unison with all three strings sounding together."...

Actually, beats have been compared, not frequencies. I've observed the effects of my unisoning on beats, in different registers.

..."A drop in pitch has been observed."...

Yes, like when you do voicing, in any range. Check yourself: compare a 5th (or an octave), say C5-G5, tune pure on centre strings, then unison and listen to your 5th. Is it still pure?

..."But since a higher partial is measured, I am not sure if it is the fundamental frequency that changes or if it is the effective iH of the strings that change"...

Indeed, when I unison I reinforce the pitch of the centre string. As I've explained, I go for a beam, made up by the mid-string's foundamental and its 2nd partial, gained with the outer strings outcome. In a way, the outer string can syntethize the centre string's pitch, i.e. foundamental + partials. Then, I'd say that both the foundamental frencency and the iH of the strings change.

..."and therefore the frequency of the partials and the beat rate of the tuning intervals."...

It may as well be the strengh/precense of the partials and the overall pitch.

..."This effect is an argument for tuning unisons as you go and for adding a bit of extra stretch when tuning an octave so that when the other strings of the unison are tuned the pitch will settle where it belongs."...

Yes, the pitch has to settle where it belongs, beat-wise.

..."Perhaps this is what you are experiencing rather than the piano’s tension equalizing."...

I talk about piano settlings, considering the sum of those two factors (plus the strings adjustements on their three lenghts). Increasing the string's tension involves the change of loading onto the bridge, maybe very very little but for me and Chas form it is still meaningfull. I need to control unisoning effects on closed notes too.

Fine and coherent voicing solves most problems related to the partials outcome. Thinking of a sound, can coherent timbre proportion the relevance and presence of partials? How would that effect your tuning?

a.c.

EDIT: more has been posted, I'll hopefully reply this evening.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 02:07 PM

"How would that effect your tuning?"

For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/10 10:31 PM


Hi Jake, you write:

..."1. If the unisons are pitched very slightly higher, so that they have partials that beat equally with partials on the center string, is their fundamental also beating against the fundamental of the center string?"...

You might have read my previous post about unisons.

Anyway, I've not mesured the partials of an outer string, after my unisoning, and compared with the partials of the centre string yet. This may answer your question.

Jeff's statement that if one partial meets, then all partials should meet, may be true in theory. In my opinion each real string has its own "irrational" story. What I know for sure is that I can reinforce the centre string's pitch, by gaining the 2nd partial of the centre string.

In other words, in the unison there is a very precise point where you hear the foundamental and its 2nd partial, the latter going absolutely straight, like if it was surfing on the foundamental. That beam gains the longest sustain.

..."2. Assuming that the answer is yes, is the perceived pitch of the "note" raised to the pitch half-way between the pitch of the center string and the pitches (which may differ) of the unisons?...

Half-way, I do not know. Generally, those unisons raise the pitch.

..."Which means that the perceived pitch emerges from the beating fundamentals and partials of the three strings."...

Definitely, the perceived pitch emerges from the fundamentals and partials of the three strings, it emerges from what is beating and what is not.

..."3. Is it thus true to say that, in this method of tuning, there is no one string in the trichord that, if plucked, would be at the same pitch as the pitch heard when all three strings are played together?"...

True. There is a sum-effect that raises the pitch of the whole trichord. Take this with a POS, as it comes only from my empirical, aural survey.

..."4. The 12'ths are slightly flat across the keyboard, if I understand correctly."...

Correct. Delta-flat all across the keyboard.

..."Should they (12ths), after the unisons are tuned in this way, be heard as just? Should some of them, at least, such as above A440?"

No, after the unisons are tuned, all 12ths must be heard delta-flat.

..."5. Are the two outer strings usually in unison with one another (as just as possible), or are they pitched to beat with different partials on the center string."...

I tune them to that beam, and I've never checked outer strings one another.

..."Or does this vary, according to the piano and overall tone desired?"...

In my tuning, I happen to pitch with different partials on bichords, or grands trichord, when I find odd strings.

..."I'm sorry if I seem to be asking the same question several times"...

You are welcome. a.c.




Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/10 06:53 AM

Thank you, Alfredo. I hope you do understand that I'm asking these questions about the unisons because I like the sound of the tuning so much.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/10 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
"How would that effect your tuning?"

For the typical middle aged consoles and the old aged uprights, which is about all that I tune, not a bit. I concentrate mostly on stability and general octave stretch. The hammers are rarely in any condition to worry about tuning tone into the unisons. I just mention these things because others are also interested, not that I have much of an opportunity to use them.

But really, I don't know what you are babbling about, and please don't try to explain.


Please dont quit, Jeff, the fact that you have to tune less than first grade instruments does not mean you cant benefit of that raised harmony. In fact I just believe the opposite, it may well give you some fun, as even uninteresting pianos get something with Chas.

The method with the felt mute and "preparatory tuning is a very good one, if you ever use a EDT you can see very easily how the strings settle and the pitch change when you are going thru the scale (unisons tuned or not).

The way you are yet tuning makes me think that you ar yet using some "auto settling" property of the tuning (be it with th 5th s or with the 12the, the instrument seem to find its correct place when it is pushed in the good direction, then tuning Chas means only using RBI to have more precision or evenness, the raised resonance put you more easily than expected in the correct pitch region.

The emphasis of 2nd partial is a help for resonance, it is just a way to listen that allow you to thicken the tone without using beats in unison (just a coupling question, to me).

I suggest you experiment on the relations of the 2nd inversion of the minor chord with the double octave of the second note. You may find some interesting thing....

Besty regards



Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/07/10 01:42 PM

To Jeff

I recorded ..

http://www.box.net/shared/ptfcnaommd

There you have an idea on how the beat rates are progressing, tuned on one string, and how the top note can be tuned only in the resonance of the octave, and fall in place well.

It is quiet to listen, even on a small vertical (but one need to have a thin enough strip mute there, to mute up to C6)

The piano is a120 cm vertical, good tone, Ciresa soundboard. I will record the job on a bad piano someday...

Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 03:56 PM

I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over two octaves. (NO: See below.)
2. The intervals of the two octaves are divided up equally, (NO: See below.)as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.
3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:
octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.
4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.
5. Double octaves are very slightly wide.
6. 12ths are very slightly narrow from A4 to the top. (NO: See below.)
7. Octaves beat very slightly wider as they move to each end of the keyboard. (NO: See below.)
8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow from A4 to the top. Moving towards the bass, they widen. (NO: See below.)
9. M5's become just or nearly just in the upper regions.
10. 4ths become more narrow as they approach the top. (Not exactly: See below. They become less wide.)
11. Unisons are often very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.
12. Resonance is to be preferred to power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (three octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats. (Partly right. See below.)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 05:31 PM


Hi Jake, thanks for this list, a valid contribute. Since I do not know how to control the editing, I'll write some CORRECTIONS/ADDITIONS with capital letters.

..."I've been making notes about tuning to CHas (an actual tuning, as opposed to the model), trying to create a list of general requirements. This list is just meant to recapitulate what I've gathered. Corrections and additions would be appreciated:

1. The bearing is set over THREE OR MORE octaves (FROM C6 DOWN TO STRINGS CROSSING, ON CENTRE STRINGS).
2. The intervals OF THESE octaves are divided up equally, as much as possible, although of course iH on some pianos may require repitching some notes slightly.
3. The lowest possible partials are listened to when checking beat rates:
octaves at 2:1 , doubles at 4:1, 12ths at 3:1 ; 5ths at 3:2 not using the checks that compare 2 fast beating intervals, as the M6 M17th to check the 12th size.
4. Double octaves and 12ths beat equally.
5. Double octaves are very slightly wide, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD.
6. 12ths are very slightly narrow, CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD .
7. Octaves beat very slightly (PROGRESSIVE) wider as they move to each end of the keyboard.
8. But the 12th's remain slightly narrow, AND CONSTANT ALL ALONG THE KEYBOARD
9. M5's become PROGRESSIVELY just or nearly just in the upper regions.
10. 4ths become LESS WIDE as they approach C3.
11. Unisons are PREFERABLY very slightly wide to reinforce the 2nd partial.
12.(SUSTAIN) Resonance is to be preferred to (ATTACK) power: Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many contemporary ET's, since lower partials are listened to for beats."

- . - . - . -

I do not know if Point 12 is correct. I could say … “Although the bearing\temperament octave (THREE+ octaves in CHas) is slightly wide of theoretical (historical?) ET, the upper keyboard is often "milder," than many (?) (there seem to be two, Cordier's and Stopper's) THEORETICAL contemporary ET's, since the Chas octave is less stretched.”

Unfortunally, I do not know which partials would Cordier or Stopper listen to, I could not get their aural tuning sequence either.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 05:59 PM

Hi Alfredo,
I attempted implementing your above techniques as closely as possible during my tunings on Saturday on both upright and grand pianos.

The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register.

The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4.

After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different. When I was at the piano playing, it sounded in-tune, but loose to me. When I was at the other end of the showroom and the salesman was playing - the tuning sounded very lively, pure and most of all, musical and resonant - a whole piano sound, not just intervals strung together (which as a novice tuner I've been consumed with) wink

My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals. I still check outside 6ths against inside 3ds, then a quick check of 10ths and 17ths up the register as it pertains evenness of the stretch. The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits.

Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods.

Glen

Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/10 06:40 PM

Many thanks, Alfredo.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 11:31 AM


Hi Glen,

I'm glad for your positive feedback. And your approach, trying different techniques, can only open to the best for all of us.

Though my tuning routine is related to strings loadings onto the bridge, I do not think it is a must. What is important is to know what to go for and why.

For instance, the little variations in loadings could be evaluated in other ways, depending on your idea of the sound-board's elasticity or your strings and structure settlings technique. My evaluation is not proposed as the best.

..."The most difficult part I found was controlling the openness of the unisons against the openness of stretch I chose for the octaves up the register."...

Unisons raise the pitch, but the increase in strings tension does load more onto the bridge, so eventually experience will help.

..."The bearing section I expanded was C3-C4, using A-440 as the mark. Normally, I use F3-A4."...

Did you mean C3-A4?

..."After the tunings, I played several different pieces of music and on each different piano, the salesman in charge of the showroom commented very positively, that he liked it. Because I had been using a different method, CHAS felt different, sounded different."...

Still today I'm surprised by the effects of this beating form, both for the "in tune" feeling and the resonance power. A small piano too gains so much brightness and volume, like if it was double in lenth.

.."My preference is for a slightly tighter sound, but this method allows me to experiment with the piano's "whole sound", rather than simply listening to intervals."...

Yes, the whole sound is relevant. Today I do not make a distinction between the first temperament-octave and the whole keyboard.

..."The precise evenness of beat progression up the register is sometimes altered by the piano itself, I suppose inHarmonicity, false beats, and lack of experience on my part, are the culprits."...

If you are tuning with beats, do not submit to iH. You'll be able to lay down your favorite tuning form by imposing beats coherence for all intervals.

..."Did you receive my tuning sample with checks? Thanks for the descriptions of your methods."...

I did receive your samples and listened to them. Progressions can be improved, but they are already good standard. One point: when you check the intervals progression go slowly and regularly, do not change the choromatic sequence's rhythm, you risk to confuse the increasing (or decreasing) beat rate you want, with your increasing (or decreasing) playing rhythm.

Our tendency (O) is to hear what we would like to hear, being sort of "generous" with ourselves. If you can, be severe and always ready and willing to perfect your Real beat hearing. Choromatic 12ths are easy to evaluate, and vivid and reliable too.

Let us know. a.c.


Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 02:17 PM

Kamin:

When you can, could you tell what mic or mics you're using for your various recordings of CHas, and where you are putting the mic in relation to the piano?
Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/10 04:51 PM

Greetings, Alfredo ~~

Loading the strings on the bridge is a fine concept, and something to take into account as it pertains to string/pin setting for tuning stability and resonance. Mushy pinblocks on some of the pianos means one has to work harder to get any feedback.

Yes, experience over the next few hundred or so tunings will be a big help in terms of accuracy, consistency, and efficiency.

I did mean C3-A4. I will look into further expanding the bearing to C3-C5. My preference is to begin stretching octaves up the register as much as possible. The trick is to make the stretch consistent. This will take a great deal more experience.

I agree - the tempered (bearing) section is just that and it has to blend in with the rest of the stretch.

Good catch on the check sample...I did have a tendency to speed up the interval check speed as the beat rates increased...I also have a tendency when I play to speed up in fortissimo and slow down in pianissimo! wink

Chromatic 12ths are a good check to ensure those intervals are not too narrow or wide. It is an easy check.

No question, and I am of the philosophy that the best sounding temperament in the world is useless without perfect unisons.

I'll let you know how it goes...this weekend I have 5 scheduled tunings.

Thank you, again, again!

Glen
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/10 03:31 PM

Ran across this article (may be well-known) which has a section on the relative pitches of unisons. Interesting reflections on how unison offsets affect M3's, etc. See the section "The Effect of Multiple Stringing on the Sound of the Piano," about 1/4 into the essay. However, unisons in general are discussed, without regard to the octaves in which they are pitched:

http://www.zainea.com/piano%20sound.htm

(This isn't really related to the pretuning sequence for CHas, of course, but instead to the final tuning.)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/23/10 10:46 AM


The issue reported by GP and quoted below is a recurrent phenomenon. It may suggest to hold the strings loadings and adjustements, the pins charge and the piano settlings and Time in due consideration. These factors are as relevant as the tuning form itself (O).

..."Here is what I have noticed these last 5 tunings...since I received the piano in 2007......when I go back to tune the whole piano, the upper 2 treble sections are the worst. The very top treble is not nearly as bad as the section below it. In fact, that top section is quite stable in unisons and pitch.

The section that is a problem, between D#5-G6, that section constantly goes flat first before any other section, and the unisons drift out first there before any other section....that's why we pounded down the pins, thinking that would help. For example, after tuning from bass to treble, that problematic area, after 1 or 2 pieces that really pound the piano, that section is already somewhat flat! Then slowly, the more the piano is played, the whole piano starts to drift flat, it never seems to go sharp."...

Regards, a.c.

.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/30/10 01:03 PM


..."The PTG convention in 2011 will be held in Kansas City, his (Kent Swafford's) home and the home of PTG. It may be a good idea to plan for that event, to present your idea, mine and that of Alfredo Capurso at that time, perhaps at some kind of "side show" where three very similar pianos can be tuned in each style. Let the audience and musicians give their comments and approval or disapproval to each without them knowing which piano is tuned in which way."...

I thank you, Bill, for your proposal, I'll be glad to enjoy our real tunings.

As you know, I'm also trying to share a new Temperamental Theory and a modern ET model deriving from a new approach to beats and resonance.

In another forum, one colleague was asking for a short description to help to focus on the important principles, to understand the system more quickly. I hope this can help:

About Chas pre-tuning method and sequence:

- the use of all intervals for an ET where all intervals are progressive
- the use of low partials beats for reducing iH's influence
- not counting but comparing beats (progressive and even beating ones)
- guessing only the first octave for eventually perfect it
- drawing a more accentuated stretch curve for compensating the piano's adjustments (let the piano get the form)
- inverting the beat rate progression of 5ths for eventually gaining even beating 12ths (narrow) and 15ths (wide) all along the keyboard.

About Chas system's theory:

- the static zero-beating approach is replaced with "stable dynamism"
- zero-beating "pure" intervals do not equal "more consonant"
- beats return the strings partials qualities, so giving character and tension (read colour) to each single interval
- no interval needs to be beat-less
- all intervals (all partials) can compromise for a geometric Optimum, for a resonant and stable beating whole
- flows of beats and outcoming partials determine infinite sound atmospheres.

This is also what I would really like to talk about, I would like to explain Chas whole ratio, why and how any scale practical arrangement (including your EBVT, Patrick's EBVT + pure 12ths, and so on) can eventually depart from this balanced geometrical entity in the most natural (and human) way.

I'll be very happy if PTG will promote wider understanding of this theory and I'll welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may personally be able to offer.

Regards, a.c. 

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/08/10 09:03 AM


Hello.

From Ernest Unrau (R.P.T - C.A.P.T - CANADA) we receive the Flow Chart describing Chas Pre-Tuning sequence:

http://api.ning.com/files/DWLXHPDu0*UDEYxdq5G3IqO5z6EC08cwgCNjc1bPYFkj*S9JQvW2c9Rz*UNZM02v0r-GsgtwUjBp2ECV88YyrKP5sfkbz-NO/CHAS_PrepSeqFlowChart.pdf

I thank you very much, Ernest, as I'm sure yours is one more relevant, best motivating contribution.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 08:38 PM


I'll like to reply to what Bill Bremmer writes:

..."The hammer technique I use avoids the bending and twisting of the tuning pin and causes the entire string segment to move simultaneously. Frankly, the notion that one must "feel" the pin moving only means that you are twisting it and therefore have to go through more effort to undo that.

I will be interested to read what you say has been written recently by Jim Coleman, however. When I teach my students, I tell them that the string is elastic, like a rubber band (indeed the French word for that is «un élastique»). The tuning pin is like a spring. If one "turns" the pin slowly, one does feel it move, yes but at the same time, one is inevitably putting a twist or torque into it. The change in tension upon the speaking length happens and we can hear that or the ETD reads it but there is some residual parts of the string which may not have responded, there also may be more tension between the tuning pin and the first bearing point. If that that tension gets to high in an attempt to raise the pitch of the string, it will break.

So, I firmly believe in what I learned so many years ago, that an impact movement of the tuning hammer is the most efficient and mechanically correct movement. If it were really necessary to "feel" the pin moving as many technicians claim (I know that many, if not most have been taught that), it would mean that the impact style tuning hammer is a worthless tool. Clearly, this is not true for some of the finest technicians I know use one. Dean Reyburn is one of them. He designed and markets such a tool. One does not "feel" the pin move as is described and claimed to be essential. Therefore, I don't believe it is essential. I actually believe it is counter productive, even potentially damaging."

- . - . - . -

I cannot write tonight but if you colleagues want to elaborate on this..."impact movement"? or "feel the pin", and charge it for counter-balancing the string's tension?

Regards, a.c.



Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 09:32 PM

Hello Alfredo,

What you have shown to me and that looks like those old basic "first lesson in tuning : untwist the pin, raise the pitch, then twist it back a little" took sense, in the way it make the differnce between a basically settled system, and a system wich is at the same time settled hard as stone, and charged with the utmost tension.

To get there with more fast tuning hammer technique it is necessary to come back again and again to wedge the appropriate tension in the system until it is charged to the top.

The other way to settle as strong is to use much more heavy blows, but then the precision of the tuning lowers, and for many reasons I avoid playing too hard.

As I stated the tone is the main reason why I appreciate that "basic way" , but having a precise control on pitch while at the same time finding the utmost settling was an eye opener (or may I say an ear ?)

That said it serves me to know what I am doing wand what level of precision/stability I will access, while tuning with my more usual way (faster !).

In any case the good sensations thru the tuning hammer are what provide us control on the output, to the last 10ths of cst. I learned to wedge and to shim micro moves of the bottom of the pin, when using EDT's and working on pianos that where tuned once or twice a day. The need is differnet when doing a yearly tuning indeed, and I liked the idea to have mostly top evaluate how the soundboard and bridge is accepting the new tension.

Lot of confidence and good sensations !

Be well, I hope other colleagues will shime in, generlaly spêaking not many tuners like to speak of basic tuning technique, most often fancy tricks , while basics are left as if what was shown to us in our early age was of little value !

I'd say that simply we where not able to understand it all at that moment, that is all !

Best regards



Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/12/10 11:44 PM

The problem I think GP has with the 5th and 6th octaves is that it needs a pitch raise first in that section of the piano and like many technicians, he wants to avoid the necessary preliminary pass. This is very common. The task of tuning is so difficult that doing it once is arduous enough but to have to do it twice is beyond contemplation.

The piano has very tight tuning pins and a Wapin bridge (3 pins in it instead of two). If that whole section is even just two cents flat and each string is only raise to target pitch, by the time the section is finished, it would already be expected to be 0.5 cents flat. If, by the twisting motion of the tuning hammer, some clockwise torque has been placed in the tuning pin and there is residual unequalized tension across the bridge pins and duplex sections, that residual tension will resolve, the tuning pin will untwist and the whole section, especially with the hard playing by the player system, will end up very near where it started.

So, I recommended as a pitch raise technique, each string should be tuned even sharper than is usually recommended, such as 1 cent for each 2 cents the section is flat. The pitch raise function does not need to be done with the same amount of precision as fine tuning, just something approximate and therefore not as painstaking and stressful. When the pitch raise has been completed, give each key at least three very hard test blows. Then sample some strings from that section again. If most strings are now correct or within a very close range such as +/- 0.5 cents, it should accept a fine tuning. If they are still mostly all flat, unfortunately a pitch raise correction must again be performed. One must also be careful not to over correct. If everything is too sharp, it will tend to climb again when lowered.

I am not expecting that GP could learn to use the impact type hammer technique that I use. He is a novice tuner. He knows only how to "turn" the tuning pin until the pattern on the ETD stands still. This is OK but it must be understood that if everything is flat, just raising each string until the ETD says it is right will inevitably result in the whole thing going flat again in short order.

The 5th and 6th octaves are more sensitive to that than the rest of the piano. There is moderate tension there and that part of the scale is used more than the very highest and lowest parts of the piano. The wound strings are far less apt to go flat in the same way. There is a combination of just enough length of string, moderate tension and heavy use to cause them to go flat easily. The high treble has shorter and higher tensioned strings. The low tenor and midrange has longer strings and lower tension.

I often do three passes in the midrange and treble for the highest quality concert tuning I do (such as last Friday on the Steinway). Even though the piano was only slightly flat (generally about 3 cents), if all I did was to raise each string to the target pitch one time, the tuning would end up quite flawed. This would be regardless of how I did it, whether to use a strip mute or a single wedge and regardless of how well I settled each string as I went. I would only be deceiving myself if I thought otherwise.

I have often heard technicians claim that "strip mutes don't work" but if each unison is tuned as a whole while proceeding, "they all stay". This is only wishful thinking. The unisons may be solid but if one goes back to the ETD program to see if each unison is locked on to the target pitch to within a tolerance of 0.1 cents, the truth will be revealed. Aurally, it won't test out as desired either.

To try to change the pitch of the piano and fine tune it simultaneously is only "fighting" with the piano. The piano will always win the fight and the technician will lose. I can tune a piano twice in 45 minutes and have better, more stable results than most people will have who "fight" with the piano for an hour and a half. That is because I know how the piano will behave and I make a preliminary correction that anticipates how it will behave.

Isaac, what you did not see in that video and was perhaps some of the reason for your criticism is that the video itself was really only about the double octave and octave-5th comparison. I first showed that I tuned single octaves just slightly wide. In any typical circumstance, none of the strings would be expected to be close enough to accept a fine tuning in just one pass using a muting strip. What I would normally have done is to tune slightly wide octaves all the way to the top, quickly without too much precision, the flatter the string is, in fact, the sharper I would tune it. I would then pull in all of the unisons, again, without a great amount of precision. I would then give the entire section a series of test blows.

The expected result would be that now, each string would be within a range that would accept a fine tuning, most already in tune, a few slightly sharp, a few slightly flat but no general trend either way. If it is the highest level of performance tuning, I automatically consider that the second pass will still not be quite enough for rock solid stability. I make the corrections, tune the unisons again and start the whole process again. I expect that upon the third pass, very little has to be done and therefore it usually takes very little time. I am able to catch the few strings here or there which resisted being settled absolutely and spend the time "fighting" with them at that point, not in the beginning.

That is what puts the glowing smile on the face of the artist as he performs. I have seen it often. I know what works for me and how to get a rock solid, broadcast quality sound that will hold up through a performance with little stress and sometimes in amazingly little time. The last time that Kawai RX-3 was on stage for that young artist, the set up and sound check people were taking much longer than they had anticipated. When I was finally called to the stage, I had a two pass tuning of the piano which was not bad and basically on pitch done in exactly 35 minutes. The crew was still milling around taking care of details. I left them plenty of time to do their final sound check. If I had dwelt on each tuning pin, twisting, turning, pounding, correcting and re-correcting one unison at a time with a single wedge, I would have taken at least twice as long and been very stressed out. As it was, I finished my job, wished them a good show and took the nearly hour drive back home.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/13/10 11:46 AM


Bill, you kindly write:

..."When I teach my students, I tell them that the string is elastic, like a rubber band (indeed the French word for that is «un élastique»). The tuning pin is like a spring."...

Talking about "elasticity", spring and rubber, I thought this may help some further evaluations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(solid_mechanics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis

Regards, a.c.



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/14/10 07:38 AM


Hello,

I tend to believe that the whole piano's structure has a tendency to react slowly to an outside force (Hysteresis, linked above).

At about 2/3 of the page linked below, I've found a nice simulation that in my opinion can describe what happens when we turn the pin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending

Considering the string's tension, I think it may be advisable to feel and "charge the pin", when possible, with vertical bending (towards the string) and torsional bending (anticlock). By doing so we can counterbalance the pulling of the string and heavy playing stresses. In fact, these pin Vs string opposing forces can determine a more stable tuning.

Moreover, string and pin will result notted, (or glued, fused?) and so more energy can be transferred to the pin-block.

So, impacting or charging? One question: what will eventually make the pin's hole oval?

a.c.





Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/14/10 09:09 AM

impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion.

Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little o so the display is happy.

Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow. If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand).

So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it !


Despite the huge amount of pressure I use sometime on the lever, I am frankly not under the impression that I stress the block a lot with pressure (with wedging moves certainly it can make more trouble if they are not localized) What will make the block unusable is ovalisation on the bottom part; and I certainly did not notice that on pianos I tune regularly.

I guess that aiming to tune with a tuning pin which is "charged " to the max is a very good thing, I doubt that the charging unload, you may find it there on the next tuning. The idea that the pin is twisted some amount in the block is on page four of the book "many strokes" presented as a basis for the pin setting (which by evidence it is.

Piano a wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily !

As I said my real internal feeling with the way I tune usually, is that "everything is evened so even if the wire move it will stay just enough, the unisons having a good acoustical stability will help the note to stay tuned " (and I think like that while having stetted the pin correctly, simply I was unsure of the real bottom position of the pin I only know I have some torsion, no idea on how deep it goes.

Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference :
the tone is clearer
the tuning pin get stiffer,no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone.

Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again :
at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch.

IF the block is not very strong, i noticed that doing the process 2 or3 times (SLOWLY) finally the bottom of the pin in the end find a better grip, it get better and better, may be moving the pin one direction then the other disturb the wood fiber and help to find better grip.

But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place.

I guess I will do a video showing how I tune extra fast and how I tune with extra strong settling.

BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results.

The open but strong tone of the attack is also to me the sign of some stability. It does not mean the unisons are not smiling but a hair less than in your tone. I recorded a few notes (vertical Pleyel, 1930)

Bets regards to all !

Isaac











Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/29/10 08:40 AM


Hello Isaac,

You write:..."impact have the supposed advantage of moving the whole pin with minimal torsion."...

I think you are right, since the pin would have no time for torquing. But then, in this case, I'd have to charge a "cold" pin, without knowing what its bottom position is.

..."Using EDT s, one have always a tendency not to raise above pitch as much as in aural tuning, hence the development of special methods and techniques to just add a very little so the display is happy."...

The tendency I've noticed also in aural tuning is to get by with a fairly correct pitch, no matter how the pin is positioned. In my opinion, the correct pitch should result from the best pin position, i.e. from a correctly charged pin.

..."Stability wise, while one can get a good stability with those methods, they are not "rock stable" because the grip of the pin is not so low in the blow."...

I doubt about good stability with those methods, the pin is bound to bend and twist towards the string's relaxation.

..."If it was only for stability, I would not use that slow method, that allow the piano and wire to take its "definitive place", but the gain in tone is really important (be it a vertical with bushings or a Steinway grand)."...

Yes, stability may not be good for business, though I've found it foundamental for working on the tuning form.

..."So I present myself as the slowest tuner in Paris, and thats it!"...

To me, slow is better. Then we can master the most correct movement and execute it fast. All schools teach this, nothing new.

..."Piano and wire settling time is unfortunately not compressible, to me, if anyone have an idea on how to shorten that time I will accept it happily!"...

You are right (too often I can only agree with you). Playing the piano, single notes and chords, while we are tuning is the only way I know.

..."Trying the tone and the sensations obtained with the slow torsion and moving of the pin as showed in the videos I made, will convince you of the difference: the tone is clearer,
the tuning pin get stiffer, no more high motion of the tone with up or low pressure on the handle, only a very light move in the tone."...

I missed the video, can I find it somewhere?

..."Some tuning pins slips on reverse (moving up) eventually , if the pitch have been raised frankly too much.

If when "charging" the pin you feel it split even a little, that mean that the bottom is not yet in its definitive place. If you set the pin in that position the tone is not as good, but , more important there is a "trap" in that tuning pin, which is twisted in the top part and unlocked in the bottom, you can feel it clearly when you untwist that pin and lower the note to do the whole process again : at first the pin set again an again and seem to lock, then it unlock abruptly and then the note is way lower than you have believed, showing how much that bottom move of the pin is important for tone and pitch."...

What you are sharing is as precious as true.(O)

..."But the grip and knot that we can install in the upper part of the pin may be related to the bottom position if you want a definitive setting.

Of course the concepts that You state, Alfredo, are completely valid, the piano react and need time to find its new stability. THe pin react (probably) the wire, of course, the soundboard, the plate etc.. Being aware of that is yet something.

When we play the note so often waiting for the settling to take place, it is strange but we can hear the wire taking its place."...

I agree.

..."BTW I managed to tune with a more closed tone than yours, giving all the energy to the attack and leaving the piano find its tone by itself for the rest, and I like it, it provide more tactile sensations to the pianist hence a larger dynamic palette. On a piano with not so rich tone due to old strings (I've done it yesterday with some at last 50 years old wire) that gives very pleasing results."...

I'm looking forward to hearing the tone you like the best, no doubt about superb results...Is it warmer now in Paris?

Thank you very much, Isaac, and regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/10 06:47 AM


Isaac Oleg (France) has offered the French translation (+ comments) of Chas sequence flow chart, first elaborated by Ernest Unrau (Canada).

It is available here:

http://www.chas.it/Docs/traduction%20CHAS%20preparatoire.pdf

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning MP3 - Amatorial recording on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/22/10 08:14 AM


To All,

....((( MERRY XMAS )))....


Regards, a.c.


HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1559204/18.html
.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/23/10 12:05 AM

Have a good holiday, Alfredo. Still waiting to hear that you're going to Toulous or coming to the U.S.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/01/11 09:11 PM


Hello.

Art aside, I like John's post about "setting both the wrestpin and soundboard".

Regards, a.c.

Re: Techniques for stability [Re: PianistOne111]
Johnkie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: England
The art of obtaining tuning stability is dependent on several things. I won’t go into the pros and cons of ETD vs aural tuning, because there seems to be a huge debate on this subject that really makes no difference to the aspect of stability. However, I must add that I write this not ever having any experience of ETDs, so can’t explain stability using any of the terms associated with them.
Firstly, there are complexities of the skills required to “Set the pin”. The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.
Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.
Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 45 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Posted By: Ed Foote

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/02/11 01:19 AM

>> Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard. These skills are paramount in becoming a top class tuner and sadly it is simply not possible to learn these skills either aurally or by using an ETD. Practise and experience are the only ways to ever obtain the “feel” and result of a good professional, and stable tuning. <<

Greetings,
While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons. By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms.
However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing?
The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level. The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it. The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing. Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it?
I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally. However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT). I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)
I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone.
.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/02/11 09:39 PM

Hi David.

You write:..."While I can agree with part of this, the question is "What kind of practice and experience?" I don't think an ETD has any place in the initial training of the the ear to temper intervals and tune unisons."...

I cannot be that sure, perhaps a beginner likes that kind of feedback.

..."By virtue of their design, they render a sensual world in intellectual terms."...

Sight, though, is a sense too.

..."However, in the realm of teaching stability, I think the ETD's have a very strong contribution to make. Is stability not learning what the hand must feel in regards to what the string is doing, or not doing?"...

I'd say...not only. There is the hand, the string (three lengths), the bridge, the soundboard, the whole piano's structure and the pin.

..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...

Which level?

..."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

..."The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

..."Stability can't be learned without either aural or machine input, can it?"...

Well, if there is a problem is when aural and/or machine input are not enough.

..."I am proud to have been taught by Bill Garlick, and to have had 18 years in the recording studios, tuning aurally."...

Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

How did that help your hand?

..."I put my tunings in there and made the switch. Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

I understand you mean cleaner "eye" info. Has it trained your ear too?

..."I submit that the combination of machine and ear will develop stability faster than either, alone."...

This is what I like of John's post:

..."The general rule is to always turn the pin, not bend it! You should aim to pull the string up a little past where you want it to be, making sure that you have turned the whole length of the pin, not merely the top section that we can see. Having achieved that, we now have to bring the pitch down and slightly below where we want to be to ensure that any twist in the steel tuning pin is taken out. Assuming you have turned the whole pin firstly to take the string sharp, and now taken the string slightly below, the natural twist in the wrestpin should want to take it sharp again ... and the gentlest pressure on your tuning lever should be enough to encourage the string to pitch exactly where you need it to be. It’s at this last stage of pin setting that a firm striking of the note will help to ensure that any “tension lag” is equalised. I must admit that if I were to tune with an ETD, I would find it extremely difficult to judge, because it’s a mechanical “feel” of what’s happening to the wrestpin and looking at a ETD display simply can’t give any idea about what is physically happening to the tuning pin. In my humble opinion, the ETD confuses the issue, by making the tuner look at its display too much ... The first part of tuning i.e. taking the string above, and then slightly below by moving the entire length of the pin is the most important part of obtaining tuning stability, and only when this has been done does the tuner then have to pay close attention to the display to get the best possible result.
Secondly, it must be realised that every individual string altered has a knock on effect to the other strings ... So the more out of tune, or below pitch the instrument is, the greater the knock on effect is. It’s pointless worrying about a perfect tuning if you are making large tuning adjustments. Far better to get the overall tension on the soundboard by doing a rough tuning first without worrying that the tuning sounds awful , rather than concentrating on getting notes perfect, and then having them all wander out of tune again as the soundboard is subjected to increased down-force. This again is something that I can’t comment on with regard to ETDs – I believe that they have the ability to calculate “stretch” , and should be more than capable of indicating the amount required to achieve the finished result. However, it’s once again a question of “Setting” ... but this time it’s a question of “setting the soundboard”.
Tuning stability is affected by many things, temperature and humidity change cause the biggest fluctuations in pitch, but the initial stability comes down to the tuner’s skill in setting both the wrestpin and soundboard."...

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Ed Foote

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/03/11 01:24 AM

I wrote:

>..."The quality of data coming from any of the modern machines is extraordinary for those that have learned to use the tool at this level."...
A.C. asks:
><Which level?

The level of seeing pin flex indicating 1/2 cent changes on either side of a stable spot, or calculating overshoots for pitch corrections in increments I would challenge any aural tuner to match. The machines provide information, they don't make one go deaf. More information, better control of the results.

>>."The modern ETD will indicate a change of pitch before the ear can hear it."...

A.C. <<Hmmmmm...I'm not that sure.

Well,I am positive, having put my SAT up against a lot of ears over the years. Maybe acquaint yourself with one and see if you have a surprise in store. I don't think many of us can sense a .2 cent change in the fourth partial of a note, but that fine control is where a machine does shine.

I said,
>"The sooner we know that the string is moving through the agraffe, the tighter our information becomes inre how the hand is doing."...

>>What I need to "hear" is the pin, in relation to the string.

Well, this is where we differ. I can't hear the pin. I can feel the pin while hearing the string, but my point is that you can't learn to leave a stable string without hearing it.

>>Would you tell me more about Bill Garlick? Is he from England.

He is. He was leading the North Bennett Street School in 1975, when I went there. He later was hired by Steinway and Sons to develop their training program for their techs. Bill is highly regarded in the field and I am grateful to have been a student.

..."However, arthritis in the hand pushed me into getting the first programable machine (SAT)."...

>>How did that help your hand?

After getting my aural tunings stored in the machine, I can use a small, rubber-tipped, wooden handle to play the keys. It is easier on the knuckles and finger joints than the interval playing and testing I had been doing for so many years aurally.

>Though I had been rabidly aural for years, I have to say that it made me a better tuner, and a lot of that was giving me cleaner information about the string movement. (The thing still doesn't do a unison as well as the ear, though.)"...

>>I understand you mean cleaner "eye" info. Has it trained your ear too?

Most definitely, with more information coming in, tunings are more targeted to the pitch I want them. I spend less energy on rote tasks and can spend more time polishing unisons, which is where 90% of the listeners' impression comes from.
Not to mention the ease of accessing a wide variety of temperaments.
Regards,
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/06/11 04:24 PM


Hello Ed, nice to hear from you. Please excuse me, I don't know why I wrote David.

You write:..."The level of seeing pin flex indicating 1/2 cent changes on either side of a stable spot, or calculating overshoots for pitch corrections in increments I would challenge any aural tuner to match. The machines provide information, they don't make one go deaf. More information, better control of the results."...

In my view, any tool can be useful if used properly. As John does, I relate stability to many factors, one of them being setting the pin, what I refer to as "pin charging". A second factor is "setting the soundboard", and I like to point out John's report (above) in that not often we can read about this. Actually that explaines why I do not "lay down" my tuning there and then, but try to anticipate the smallest soundboard sagging.

..."Well, this is where we differ. I can't hear the pin. I can feel the pin while hearing the string, but my point is that you can't learn to leave a stable string without hearing it."...

I agree, I said "hear" metaphorically. In detail, when I turn the pin, my attention goes to the pin's behavior inside the pin-block, there I evaluate the over-pulling that is needed for then charging the pin. So I agree with John when he talks about mechanical “feel”.

..."He (Bill Garlick) was leading the North Bennett Street School in 1975, when I went there. He later was hired by Steinway and Sons to develop their training program for their techs. Bill is highly regarded in the field and I am grateful to have been a student."...

It would be nice if Bill could partecipate in our discussions. I'm glad that by using an ETD you could become a better tuner, having also treasured many years of aural tuning.

Best regards, a.c.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/16/11 10:11 PM


Hi Erich,

Please find Chas sequence here:

alfredo capurso
#1335665 - December 28, 2009 09:14 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kamin]

Then, let me know if and how I can help. I'm glad you asked.

Regards, a.c.
.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 11:27 AM


Hi.

#1790690 - November 17, 2011 06:45 PM Re: Does it make sense to ask for a UT? [Re: PianoStudent88]

Chris Leslie:

..."Jake is asking, I think, for a practical explanation of your tuning sequence. Alfredo, I do not wish to be offensive, but you are very difficult to understand. You have presented a very theoretical paper that nobody understands, and you do not understand that others do not understand. The reason is partly because you have not presented any practical explanation of how to achieve your tuning so that less intellectual people (like me) can practice your method.

In contrast, Bill very clearly explains what he does and how to go about it so that tuners can go to a piano and tune a EBVT and mindless octaves. However, tuners cannot even begin a CHAS tuning because they have no practical steps to follow. Nobody will appreciated your concepts unless you provide a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning. Perhaps then your theories will begin to make sense."...

Thank you very much, Chris and Jake, for your comments. I appreciate your help, your feedback and any suggestion aimed at understanding and applying the CHAS model.

So far I've started three threads in PW:

Circular Harmonic System - Chas - were it is possible to discuss on and ask about any theoretical and practical issue;

Chas Preparatory Tuning - dedicated to practical tuning and all relative questions;

Historical ET and Modern ET's - were it is possible to discuss about the first ET model, ET's evolution and about other temperaments.

I've also taken part to two other threads:

C.A.P.T. Forum - "Chas Equation for Tuning" - kindly started by Isaac Oleg ( http://pianotu.ning.com/forum/topics/chas-equation-for-tuning )

PIANOTEQ Forum- "A new Italian temperament: CHas" - kindly started by Jake Johnson ( http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1174 )

Some posters seem to understand, others seem to appreciate the possibility to deepen on the subject. How would you provide more "friendly" opportunities? Would you start a new FAQ's thread? Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have? Any other idea?

Thank you All in advance.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have?

You should post a precise tuning sequence. What you keep referring too is too vague to be of any use. I know you have refused to provide a precise tuning scheme in the past, from which I conclude chas tuning does not exist. I'm open to be proven wrong.

Kees
Posted By: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
You should post a precise tuning sequence


Kees

At the risk of asking a daft question what more does Alfredo need to say than the following:


Step 1 – A4 – from 440.0 Hz to 442.0 Hz (concert or studio) - from 442.0 to 443.0 (for flat pianos)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 – (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 – (A3)-D4-(A4) - sharp, close to 1 beat/sec. – D4-(A4) faintly beating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 – (A3)-E4 - flat
check overlaping 5ths and adjacent 4ths to set up Chas ET EB octave:
A3-E4 about 1,5 beat/3s - sensibly faster than D4-A4
E4-A4 about 2 beats/1s - sensibly faster than A3-D4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 5 – (E4)-B3 – flat - tiny little faster beat than A3-D4, sensibly slower beat than E4-A4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 6 – (B3)-F#4 - flat - little slower beat than A3-E4 since 5ths have already inverted
faster beat than D4-A4 evaluate M6 A3-F#4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and so on


sse: #1335665 - 12/28/09 05:14 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kamin]
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/18/11 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Withindale

At the risk of asking a daft question what more does Alfredo need to say

Your question was answered extensively by several people in the original chas thread, no point repeating it here.

Kees
Posted By: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 01:25 AM

Kees

Enough said.

Thank you for the link to Colin Pykett's article in that thread. Did you notice that begins with this quotation?

New ideas have four stages of acceptance:
i. this is worthless nonsense;
ii. this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view;
iii. this is true, but quite unimportant;
iv. I always said so.”

J B S Haldane
Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 12:20 PM

I had not seen the above referenced sequence before but a few things about it it immediately come to mind. It looks no different from the truncated sequence found in many tuning books that originated from the Braide-White book, Piano Tuning and Allied Arts. Many publications have taken that material and abbreviated or re-arranged it one way or another. It is still the same idea no matter how it is presented. Alfredo describes 4ths as "sharp" and 5ths as "flat" instead of "wide" or "narrow" respectively. This alone is a reason to dismiss the writing as poorly researched and written.

The descriptions of how intervals and their checks should sound are too vague and thus open to interpretation. Quite a wide variety of results would be expected from following these instructions. The worst result, I am afraid would not be ET at all but you guessed it, Reverse Well. Show me a novice tuner who tries to tune a piano with those instructions and I'll show you a piano tuned in Reverse Well.

This does not mean I believe Alfredo tunes in RW. I have heard his recordings. They sound quite good. A very well executed ET, indeed. From what I could gather by reading what he has written, Alfredo advocates ET with a certain amount of stretch designed to incorporate inharmonicity to an optimum degree. That is fine, nothing wrong with that at all. However, that is what tuners have been doing in the USA now for over 30 years with far more clearly written instructions on how to do it.

Furthermore, I have a problem with the title given to what is nothing more than Standard Equal Temperament with octaves (including the initial temperament octave) optimized for inharmonicity. "Circular Harmonic System" could be the description of any Well Temperament and Reverse Well for that matter. Any of them is "Circular" and any of them would be "Harmonic".

It reminds me of the labels that are put on agricultural produce in the USA and Europe. Produce which is grown with no manufactured chemicals or fertilizers is called "Organic" in the USA and "Biological" ("Bio" for short) in Europe. However, produce raised with manufactured chemicals and fertilizers are no less "organic" nor "biological" than those raised without them.

Finding a name that has not been commonly used before the general public and writing long papers with mathematics that the general public would not comprehend unfortunately does not amount to any kind of new discovery. ET is now and always has been a theoretical model to which many people are drawn by its one-sided logic. It makes sense to many people to simply divide the 12 tone scale equally. However, the results were not what performing musicians wanted to hear in centuries past.

Helmholtz and Braide-White strongly advocated it as a solution. Isacoff recently described it as the "final solution" in his book. That was a very poor choice of words if you ask me! Throughout the 20th Century and now into the 21st, music education has made ET become the one and only frame of reference. The mere idea of "unequal" temperament seems unnatural and unwanted; not even to be considered. Fortunately, when exposed to other possibilities, musicians often find something quite appealing to the re-introduction of Well Temperament to the modern piano.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 08:07 PM

Quote
Which form should "a simplified practical guide to CHAS tuning" have? Any other idea?

Alfredo, can you use the symbology described on Reblitz page 225 (second edition) for the "Potter F-A Temperament", and then use this symbology to describe the CHas tuning sequence? If you do this then I am sure that many tuners will finally get the "leg up" to practice your tuning and then really appreciate it's value.

Thanks - Chris
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 08:33 PM

I agree with what Bill wrote so clearly.

What I find disturbing is the refusal by Alfredo to provide a clear tuning sequence, despite being told by several of the most distinguished piano technicians in the USA and Europe, why the sequence he posted is too vague.

From this I conclude (no personal insult intended) that the whole Chas tuning is an illusion. There is no such thing. Alfredo just tunes ET like the best but that's all it is.

Added to this deception is the "mathematical" paper, which in my expert opinion as mathematician and tuning theory expert is what Wolfgang Pauli coined as "not even wrong". I call it crackpottery. You can find a forum on "not even wrong".

Reason I'm restating this and undoubtedly upsetting Alfredo again is that novice and aspiring tuners seem somehow drawn to this Chas stuff, and naively believe it must be better than the "conventional ET" that is usually taught (wow, so many equations!) and are thus led astray.

Hence I'd like clearly stated why Chas is not taken seriously by many (if not all) experts in the area.

Alfredo, you will get an apology from me if you can prove me wrong.

Kees
Posted By: Withindale

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/19/11 10:37 PM

Bill, Chris, Kees

I have no argument with what you say.

Tuning technicalities aside, I take Alfredo's sequence as a description of what he does; "tiny little flat", "faintly beating" mean something more than provided for in Randy Potter's notation. No doubt some could go through everything in these threads and come up with a sequence in that form, but Alfredo?

David Pinnegar and I have both suggested, in the other thread, that Alfredo turn his attention to unequal temperaments. I'd hope the insights and inspiration he can draw from his model and his experience will lead him to something new that everyone will want to hear.

By the way, we were in Sicily earlier in the month. One day we had lunch in an old town off the beaten track. The conversation in the bar could have come straight off the stage at La Scala, not least the basso profundo. So I'm all for Alfredo and what he can bring to the party.


Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/20/11 10:12 PM

Alfredo is welcome as anyone is. However, it seems to me that he is trying to convey some new discovery which he feels is the ultimate approach to tuning. I well recall in my 1986 session at the Steinway factory with Bill Garlick (who had previously been a North Bennett Street School instructor, was the consultant to Dr. Al Sanderson and perhaps the most highly respected authority on tuning there could be), (also mentioned in one of Alfredo's earlier discussions), that he said, "There is nothing that anyone can do today with regard to tuning that someone else has not already done".

A temperament can be equal whether it is within an audibly narrow octave, an audibly beatless octave, an octave with a slight audible beat or an octave wide enough so that the fifths become beatless. From each to the next is a very small degree and each increment from an audibly beatless octave to slightly narrow or slightly stretched produces a nuance of effect, yet all tonalities will still have a character, one analogous to the other.

By definition and purpose, Equal Temperament (ET) has no tonal variation. Yet, Alfredo, while maintaining that ET is the only proper way to tune a piano, still maintains that there is a difference in each key and key signature. If it is because some people can recognize any note played on a piano without a reference and some people can recognize which key some music is in without a reference, one might be inclined to believe that ET does have distinctions.

However, the same would be true if the piano is tuned in any Well Temperament (WT) or mis-tuned as often may be the case in Reverse Well or whether the piano is out of tune and needs tuning. There would be a limit to how far out of tune and off pitch the piano is, of course but anyone who has a good sense of pitch knows which note is being played and which key any particular chord may be in, regardless of any of the above variations.

In all of the discussions between Alfredo and Bernhard Stopper whose amount of stretch in the octave results in a beatless octave-fifth (although Herr Stopper thinks of it as the other way around; the beatless octave-fifth results in a certain amount of stretch in the temperament octave), they seemed to be either trying to state the same idea or some very minute difference between what Alfredo suggests is optimal and what Herr Stopper suggests is optimal.

Just how much different could a piano sound tuned by either Sr. Alfredo or Herr Stopper? Not much. Not much at all. Just how much different would a piano sound tuned by Alfredo by ear and one tuned by an optimized ETD program? Not much, if any at all.

So, the suggestion or implication that the Circular Harmonic System is the Holy Grail of tuning is far too overstated.

Let's say for example that I said I had found a fabulous new cure for Hyperthermia. To cure a hyperthermic condition you will need to consume a vial of 236.6 milliliters of cryogenically treated monohydrogendioxide, assume a reclining posistion, apply a force of 3,600 meters per second of mixture of Dioxygen 23.2%, Dinitrogen 75.5%, Monocarbondioxide, 0.5% with added trace amounts of Dihydrogen, Argon, Neon, Helium, Krypton and Xenon for a period of 300,000 milliseconds.

I could then show pages of mathematics to show how the process works and pages of chemical symbols and proportions which few people could read or understand.

Or, I could say, "If you get all hot and sweaty, drink a glass of ice water, sit down and turn on a fan for 5 minutes".

Similarly, Alfredo could simply say, "I believe the most appropriate way to tune the modern piano is in Standard Equal Temperament with optimally stretched octaves".
Posted By: pianolive

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/21/11 04:36 PM

Thank you Bill.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/21/11 06:28 PM


Hi.

..."Alfredo could simply say, "I believe the most appropriate way to tune the modern piano is in Standard Equal Temperament with optimally stretched octaves"."

Bill, although result of a limited interpretation, your idea is not bad at all. I could simply say:

I believe the most appropriate way to tune all instruments is in a New Standard Equal Temperament With Optimally Stretched Intervals".

But, isn't that a bit long?

Please, let's continue our discussion in the main Chas thread, so that this thread can be used according to the original purpose.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/21/11 07:24 PM


Hi,

A comment from Bill Garlick was posted in this thread not long ago: "There is nothing that anyone can do today with regard to tuning that someone else has not already done".

Eventually I've remembered where I had read something vaguely similar:

"Behind the mountains there live people, too. Be modest; as yet you have discovered and though nothing which others have not thought and discovered before you. And even if you have done so, regard it as a gift from above, which you have got to share with others." It's one of Schumann's "Rules….".

The aural Preparatory Tuning sequence can be found at Chas website:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

Thanks to Ernest Unrau RPT (Canada) for elaborating the original pdf and to Isaac Oleg (France) for translating and commenting it.

The whole site is being renewed: many details need to be managed and some material hasn't been translated yet. I hope to improve that during the forthcoming holidays.

To All, Merry Christmas.

a.c.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/22/11 03:24 PM

Alfredo,

Thank you for posting the sequence on your site. I worry that the sequence, as written, can still cause uncertainty, largely because:

1. The term "flat" is used to describe a narrow interval. Late in the sequence, this terminology is explained, but in the early steps, it is not. Thus the 2nd step is "(A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating threshold." Reading this, I at first thought that you meant to make the lower note flat from a perfect unison, which would create a wide octave. Since "flat" means a narrow octave, the intent is instead to raise the pitch of the lower note, creating a narrow octave. Most confusing to speak of a rise in pitch as flat.

2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?.

3. Many people will want more specific information about the exact pitch shifts in cents. To speak of tiny shifts in pitch is natural, but the word "tiny" can mean a wide range of pitches, from less than a cent to several cents.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/23/11 10:31 AM


Hi Jake, thanks for your feedback.

On the first point, right at the begenning I wrote:

Sharp or flat is referred to the note (centre string) I’m
meant to tune. The already-tuned note is in brackets “()”:...".

Then I wrote:..."Step 2 − (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating
threshold"

Perhaps for the novice tuner I should add one notion: from an apparently beatless point, we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Do you think this would help? Would this suggest that the Step-2 (A4)-A3 interval is clearly going to be wide?

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/01/12 10:35 PM


Hi Jake,

you wrote:

..."2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?."...

All the steps are referred to low partial matchings, like 2:1, 3:2 and so on, but actually when I tune I listen to beats and compare them, I don't think about partials.

To All, Happy *20.New Year.12*

a.c.


Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/02/12 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Jake, thanks for your feedback.

On the first point, right at the begenning I wrote:

Sharp or flat is referred to the note (centre string) I’m
meant to tune. The already-tuned note is in brackets “()”:...".

Then I wrote:..."Step 2 − (A4)-A3 - tiny little flat, just on the beating
threshold"

Perhaps for the novice tuner I should add one notion: from an apparently beatless point, we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Do you think this would help? Would this suggest that the Step-2 (A4)-A3 interval is clearly going to be wide?


No, no. The problem is, if memory serves me correctly, later in the sequence, you refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave. As a result, I assumed that the sequence was saying that the A3-A4 octave should be narrow. (Although I doubted that you meant to say this.)

A note for novice tuners explaining how an octave can be made narrow or wide might be good, but my problem was just with the use of the word "flat" speaking of an octave. I would suggest using simple, declarative statements such as:

"Tune A3 very slightly flat from A4, just at the edge of beating, creating a wide octave."

(In other words, write full sentences, so that a simple verb such as "tune" or "raise" or "lower" applies to one of the strings in the interval in each step.)
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/02/12 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Jake,

you wrote:

..."2. The tuning partials are not defined. Are all of the steps referring to the pitch of the fundamentals?."...

All the steps are referred to low partial matchings, like 2:1, 3:2 and so on, but actually when I tune I listen to beats and compare them, I don't think about partials.

To All, Happy *20.New Year.12*

a.c.


But the partials are what beat, yes? Without knowing what low partials you are listening to for beating, reproducing CHas from these instructions is at best difficult.

Has your excellent practice as an aural tuner led you away from specifying exactly what you listen to, which may well be different partials on different pairs of notes (as opposed to just the usual practice of listening to different partials on different intervals, but always using the same partials for the same intervals)? In other words, you know the sound that you want, and obviously get, but writing down all of the exact partials seems tedious? I hate to say it, but defining these low partials seems to be needed. It might help if you did a tuning with another good tuner taking notes while you explained what you were listening for. (What has happened to dear Oleg?)

As always, a great admirer of the truly remarkable sound that you get from pianos,

Jake
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/04/12 12:51 AM


Hi Jake.

..."No, no. The problem is, if memory serves me correctly, later in the sequence, you refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave. As a result, I assumed that the sequence was saying that the A3-A4 octave should be narrow. (Although I doubted that you meant to say this.)"...

Would you be able to point out where - later in the sequence - I refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave?

..."A note for novice tuners explaining how an octave can be made narrow or wide might be good,..."...

Do you mean this(?): ...we can make a "wide" interval either by sharpening the top note or by flattening the bottom note; and we can make a "narrow" interval either by flattening the top note or by sharpening the bottom note.

Someone says that ET octaves can be narrow, I cannot (and would never) say that. Chas ET octaves are wide and get slowly wider and wider.

..."but my problem was just with the use of the word "flat" speaking of an octave. I would suggest using simple, declarative statements such as: "Tune A3 very slightly flat from A4, just at the edge of beating, creating a wide octave." (In other words, write full sentences, so that a simple verb such as "tune" or "raise" or "lower" applies to one of the strings in the interval in each step.)"...

I agree, your way is much clearer. Thank you.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Professor Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Chas Recordings:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=it



Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/06/12 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Would you be able to point out where - later in the sequence - I refer to a narrow octave as a flat octave?



I cannot find the sequence on your site, now. I apologize if I misspoke, but I thought that the near the end, a narrow octave was defined as flat.

In any case, I'm looking forward to your revisions, to hearing the results as we attempt the tuning, and reading the ongoing discussion. I hope that your holidays were good, and that many songs were played on pianos that you tuned.

Happy New Year.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/14/12 02:28 PM


Hi Jake,

Thank you for your words. I've checked the website, you'll find Chas sequence here:

http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

From another thread:

Re: tuning the easy way? #1824040 - Yesterday at 12:00 PM

partistic:

..."...you would have to pay attention to the tuning pin movement, if you would like to have a decently stable tuning. It is important not to have a clockwise twist on the tuning pin, since hitting the strings with the hammers adds counterclockwise torque making the twist likely to untwist and detune the note."...

In my opinion you (partistic) managed to word that fundamental issue very nicely. I hope to be able to deepen on that (with you All), as in my experience pins control and "stable tuning" enable us to move towards our favorite tuning form.

Personally, I "charge" all pins also with a "counterclockwise torque". In fact, the "counterclockwise torque" is what is meant to have to determine the actual frequency. In other words (perhaps you can help me), the correct frequency must be the "natural" outcome, resulting from the balance between the string's pulling and the pin's counterclockwise "charge".

What about you?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/15/12 06:20 AM

Hi Alfredo,
I just wanted some clarification. When speaking of "counterclockwise torque", does that mean that you tune the note as normal and then, at the last minute, twist the tuning lever counterclockwise just a little bit, and then leave the note like that? Does this make it more stable in your experience? In other words, when and how much counterclockwise torque do you apply?

Thanks!
-Erich
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 11:31 AM


Hi Erich,

Let's consider the case of a "normal" pin and say that I'm tuning a flat note: while I turn the hammer clockwise, I evaluate how much clockwise torque and pin bending is taking place for the pin to turn at its bottom (down inside the pin-block). This allows me to get an idea of the pin's behavior and lets me guess the over pull. In the meantime I'm getting passed the "right spot"; then I can over pull, knowing that in order to get back to the right spot with the correct "pin charge" I'll have to "subtract" the clockwise torque and pin's bending (on a grand), possibly gaining the right spot with a (very) small amount of counterclockwise torque and (very) little pin-bending towards the speaking length of the string.

You ask: how much counterclockwise torque do you apply?

There I evaluate the pin's propensity to move; in other words, how much force (on the pin) would make the pitch flat or sharp: I refer flat Vs sharp propensity to the pin's counterclockwise torque and bending, and measure the pin's propensity (to flatten or sharpen the pitch) by touching lightly the tuning hammer. The flat Vs sharp force rapport I "normally" establish goes from 7/3 to 8/2, meaning that I need 7 or 8 points of push-flat force against 3 or 2 points of pull-sharp force.

I hope I could answer your question, perhaps you can word this practice more clearly. Please let me know if this post is only more confusing and I will delete it.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Jake Jackson

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 05:12 PM

Alfredo,

In the tuning sequence, you DO refer to a narrow interval as flat. Here's the line, from near the end:

"So far, apart from A3-D4, I have stretched “flat” (narrow) –
now I’ll stretch “sharp” (wide)…"


When are you going to do that video of you tuning?

Posted By: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 07:31 PM

Thanks Alfredo. Most of it makes sense. I think that I naturally or intuitively do this already to some extent (maybe not as accurate or calculated as you though). I pull slightly past the correct pitch, and then ever so slightly turn (or just touch)the tuning lever counterclockwise. I think this more or less along the lines of what you are doing, right?

One thing I couldn't figure out from your post though was the term 'Vs'. What is a 'V'?

Thanks again!
-Erich
Posted By: ChickGrand

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/16/12 10:27 PM

"versus"
Posted By: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/17/12 05:38 AM

Ah - thanks!
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/18/12 12:21 PM


Hi ChickGrand, thanks for helping, and thanks Jake.

Hi Erich, You say ..."I pull slightly past the correct pitch, and then ever so slightly turn (or just touch)the tuning lever counterclockwise. I think this more or less along the lines of what you are doing, right?"...

In general I think that's correct, I understand that from a higher pitch you get down to the right spot. But that, to me, means that you take away some clockwise torque only.

These are (more or less) the steps I refer to (in general):

1 - Turn the lever clockwise (apply and evaluate pin torque and bending)
2 - Turn clockwise (you must feel the pin rotating at its bottom)
3 - Turn clockwise (overpull - the above and this, all in one go - how sharp? It depends on the pin torque-bending/rotation rapport)
4 - Turn counterclockwise (for zeroing clockwise torque while you are still high in pitch - the pin must not rotate)
5 - Turn counterclockwise (get passed the right spot - now going flat you "charge" the pin - the pin has not rotated)
6 - Release the lever and help the pin's setting (now your pin has a residual counterclockwise torque that can balance the string's tension and the hammer impacts)
7 - Check the pin's charge (as explained in a previous post)

Of course, avoid practicing on a piano that you want to preserve.

To go through steps 1-2-3 will take one or two seconds; steps 4 and 5 may require more time/seconds, depending on the pin. Few more seconds for steps 6 and 7.

All this to say that many beginners are very concerned about the pitch, and many of them go for the pitch on its own, mainly concentrating on that. But really, in order to hear pitches and beats, after a while, you do not need to concentrate, actually you'll hear all that even if you do not want to. What I concentrate on is the pin's behavior, the amount of torque it can take and how it turns inside the pinblock.

Regards, a.c.

Edit: This post is about the "pin charge" issue; do not forget to distribute the string's tension on its three lengths.
Posted By: erichlof

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/19/12 06:36 AM

Thanks for the detailed explanation Alfredo. I understand now what you are trying to accomplish. I must say that I have not tried this "charging" technique before. It is very interesting and I might give it a try on an older piano that I have access to. Always something to learn! smile
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/07/12 05:46 PM


#1909239 - June 06, 2012 12:10 PM Circular Harmonic System (C.HA.S) Tuning

Weiyan Offline
Full Member

Registered: October 05, 2011
Posts: 362
Loc: Hong Kong

I am practicing CHAS tuning with the help of Issac.

I am using Afredo Capurso's Procedur.

This is my exercise today.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-june-2012
M3 progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-june-2012
Fourths progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-june-2012
Fifths progression

C-G / D-G, either one of these intervals too fast.

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks you.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Few words in general:

1 - remember that any pitch can move a little bit at any time;
2 - after you expand your octave, you will be able to countercheck all notes from A3 to A4 and correct them even more;
3 - always relate (in your mind) one interval to another one, make a relation between intervals, never think that you are tuning one single interval;
4 - at this stage, do not look for perfection.

First consider (and tune) four notes, A4, A3, D and E (or E and D); you will need to evaluate these 4 notes (five intervals) together, evaluate their relation, because the octave, two 4ths and two 5ths will allow you to set the premises.

Leave A4 a little bit sharp (high in pitch), A3-A4 must be very very little wide, you would say it is just, beat-less, but you must be able to notice that it has some life. Play your octave and, before the sound goes off, you must be able to notice that it is going to "open", it want to grow in a sort of m…muuuuuoooooaaaa, it is not still/dead.

Tune D4 to A3 - That is a 4th, so sharpen D from just, find 1 bps (not more) and make it, if you can, just a little bit slower or leave it like that. In your rec, it is too just.

Check D4-A4, this 5th must sound almost just, very little life in it. In your rec., it is too narrow.

Tune E4 to A3 - That's a 5th, so make it narrow by lowering E4 from just. In your rec. it was quite good.

Check E4-A4, this 4th must be wide, around 2 bps. In your rec. it was too just, you needed A4 a bit higher.

So you have:

A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good
E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)

In bps order (from faster to slower):

E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-A4 (in your rec. it was too just)

Please tell me if my English allows you to follow. If you like, make a rec. with only these five intervals. Same recording speed and method.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/07/12 10:11 PM

Hello ALfredo, you say :

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Of course, avoid practicing on a piano that you want to preserve.

To go through steps 1-2-3 will take one or two seconds; steps 4 and 5 may require more time/seconds, depending on the pin. Few more seconds for steps 6 and 7.

All this to say that many beginners are very concerned about the pitch, and many of them go for the pitch on its own, mainly concentrating on that. But really, in order to hear pitches and beats, after a while, you do not need to concentrate, actually you'll hear all that even if you do not want to. What I concentrate on is the pin's behavior, the amount of torque it can take and how it turns inside the pinblock.

Regards, a.c.



My experience (indeed once the technique is more or less mastered) is that at the contrary, a pianao that tend to show apoor holding and a too smooth pin rotation, will have its grip raised and way more than I was expecting.

I finally wondered if the pin does not get "twisted" some, so its grip get better.
I also noticed that on a really poor piano where the pin slips again and again, making the whole process (un charging, raising very slowly overpulling and torquing back) raise the grip after 3 or 4 times it is done.

There I wondered if when we uncharge then turn (very slowly) we are not reorienting a little the fiber inside the hole, that in the end provides a little more grip.

Naturally I would have think that the more I manipulate the pin in an old tired block, the more it get tired and slippery, but my experience was exactly the opposite.

SO working on any piano to learn the method can be done in my opinion , but care may be taken to respect well the orientation of the tuning lever so to avoid undue stress on the "bed" of the pin (the +-45°-60° part of the hole where the pin is really braked).

Best regards...
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 03:20 AM

Afredo:

Thank you. I can here the beats in the record. Its easier to here beats in record.

For F-A, I feel its too quiet, now confirmed my hearing. Thank you.

Your English is easy to understand, except the word "just". Sometimes its may interpret as correct in ET, sometimes it may be refer to pure interval. If the just is refer to ET, not help to me. I am not trained to tune ET aurally, although had practice ET 4th/5th for a month.

Going to today's practice session.

Thank you..
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 11:52 AM

This is today's practice.

Tried to correct last tuning, but one note slipped away. So retune from ground.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

The frequency of this octave:

A3: 220.1
A#3: 232
B3: 246.7
C4: 256.9
C#4: 276
D4: 294.3
D#4: 308.8
E4: 329.6
F4: 347.3
F#4: 369.7
G4: 390.6
G#4: 413.8
A4: 441.1(Attack is 442)

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 12:09 PM

Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

May be G-E too slow???

thank you for suggestion.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 01:21 PM


Good job, Weiyan.

Honk Kong time is 9.21 pm, I am writing now so that you can read this.

I have played your recs only once, to get an idea. Let's see your first rec (octave).

These are your "base" intervals (Please notice, the second last is not A4-E4 but A3-E4):

A3-A4 - A bit too wide. Listen how you can hear some movement very soon, at the beginning, too soon, you want that to happen a little bit later.
A3-D4 - Too wide. Can you hear 2+ bps?
D4-A4 - Nice. More typical for A3-E4. Make it less narrow.
A3-E4 - Nice.
E4-A4 - Too wide. Can you hear 3+ bps?

Now you can see (next it will be "visualize" in your mind) that:

A4 is too wide for A3 and E4
D4 is too wide for A3
D4-A4 is very close

What can you do?

You put a little bit down (lower in pitch - perhaps with a forte blow) A4 and D4. Also, you want D4 and A4 less narrow, so D4 must go down (in pitch) a bit more than A4.

I will analyze attentively your other recs tomorrow, please tell me if you can follow.

"Just" is referred to beat-less, still, no-beating intervals.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 02:51 PM

Hi Afredo,

Refresh the browser before switching off the computer, I saw your reply. Thank you.

For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just.

A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct.

Counting 1 or 2 bpse is easy to count 3.5 beats in 5 second.

For hearing the beats, its easier with recorded sound. In real tuning session, if stand up in tuning position, the beats are not so clear. When seating down, the beats are clear.

The width of A3-A4 is difficult.

Its good idea to focus on the first octave and the four intervals. Will going on practice tomorrow. Hopefully I had a correct pitch piano to play on Sunday.

Best wishes to all friends here.

Weiyan

Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 03:13 PM

Hi Alfredo, Weiyan~
Just tuned in to the discussion. I love this stuff!!!

Here's my suggestion. Hope it helps...

As for making A3-A4 slightly wide, compare the beat rate from F2 to each, making A3 beat ever so slightly slower than A4, taking into account you've already set A4 at 440. In a perfect world A3 beats half as fast as A4, so it needs to beat ever so slightly less than half.

Glen

Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 04:47 PM

Say something nice Alfredo wink after one year of tuning I find Glen is at a very good level and find a personal tone. I agree 100% with his unisons and I like the global color.

How did you make that temperament , Glen ?

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 06:47 PM

Hi Glen,

I'm fine, thanks.

I really enjoyed listening to your sample, very nice playing (did you compose that piece?) and nice sound too, I like your sensitivity.

Then you know that if I were to really check a tuning I'd follow a precise procedure all across the keyboard.

It is nice to read about you here.

Regards,

Alfredo
Posted By: Inlanding

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/08/12 11:39 PM

Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:03 AM

Inlanding:

Thank you.

I like your song and the tuning. I like the tuning with rich consonant, and the voice is open. How you tune your piano?

For the 3rd/10th checking, Alfredo had not mentioned in the procedure sheet. I think CHAS octave better check by A3-D: 1bps, A3-E4: 1.5bs/3s, E4-A4: 2bps.

Its morning and birds whistle outside. I have to correct yesterday's tuning. Yesterday worked 6 hours on the 12 note. I hope today have time to record some unison tuning.

Have a nice weekend.
Posted By: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:12 AM

I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input. I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear. If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations. After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust. Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat. Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does. No equation will help in that kind of problem. The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people.
Posted By: Cinnamonbear

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Inlanding
[...] Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264


Glen,

Gorgeous sound! So mellow! Nice musical development in the improv, too! Beautiful, sensitive playing. Thanks for posting this, and happy birthday, too!!! grin

--Andy
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 07:50 AM

This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.

Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 09:38 AM

Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:04 AM

Hi All, Hi Weiyan,

"Self critique" is most correct, when you have refined your self critique ability you can be your own tutor and revisor, every day, it is THE must, throughout all your career. Beats are always there, they only call for aural skill, rhythm sensitivity and honesty.

..."For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just."...

Yes, D4-A4 is "nearly just".

..."A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct."...

Yes, correct (in general). We will see that all relations can be refined by adding more intervals. This comes with time.

..."The width of A3-A4 is difficult."...

Do not worry, more difficult is perhaps hammer control and stability, give yourself time. The ability to compare beats (rhythms), control the hammer (your whole body) and visualize the "interval relations map" (+ aural power) can develop in parallel, try not to force it and... if you get tired, have a rest.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

What I hear:

1 - A3-C#: slow - about 3 bps
2 - A#-D: very fast - like for a sequence of photograms, if the speed rate is very high we cannot separate beats. Remember your D4?
3 - B-D#: slow - around 2 bps
4 - C-E: fast
5 - C#-F: Ok (for now)
6 - D-F#: slow + slower than the previous (C#-F) - about 5 bps
7 - D#-G: Ok - next time you want 6 between 5 and 7
8 - E-G#: slow - you can compare with the previous
9 - F-A4: fast - same effect for A#-D

- . - . - . -

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

- . - . - . -

Yes, those two intervals are fast; try to avoid very fast 4ths, like C#-F# and D-G, can you hear they are much faster?

- . - . - . -

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

- . - . - . -

A3-E - Ok (for now); can you hear the beat starts at your playing? You want the beat start (show) a bit later. Stay close to this effect, close to C#-G# and D-A4.

Your self critique will get better. For now, consider also this general rule: 4ths beat faster than 5ths.
First step (at the beginning), make 4ths very similar - going from A3-D to E-A4, chas 4ths get progressively faster (wider).
First step (at the beginning), make 5ths very similar - going from A3-E to D-A4 and up, chas 5ths get slower (more and more just).

I see now more samples, I'll have a check.

Have a nice w.e. you too, a.c.

Edit: stay close to your five "base" intervals, comparing everything you can: beats, noise, tension, flavor, taste, movement.

Those birds are lovely.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Inlanding
Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen


Hi Glen,

That tuning is more than decent, all together it sounded nice! Yes, good that you are focusing also onto the expansion of the temperament octave, that makes a complete good tuning.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 11:14 AM

#1910771 - June 09, 2012 02:12 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]

RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: May 10, 2012
Posts: 2

..."I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input."...

Hi Rich, thank you both.

..."I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear."...

I would never say "use equations" for tuning. Where did you get that idea?

..."If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations."...

In my view, not even then. Instruments require only one finger for settings.

..."After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust."...

Adjusting is always good. In octave 7 (C7-C8) I rearly use 5ths and 6ths. I use more octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

..."Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat."....

Yes, it takes time.

..."Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does."...

Sure.

..."No equation will help in that kind of problem."...

I agree, It would be pretty strange thinking otherwise.

..."The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people."...

Here I would not discuss maths nor theory, but real tuning, approach and general practice. When ever you want to doublecheck, your samples are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kamin
Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !


Hi Isaac,

I must believe that Rich was told about some theory, but I cannot say if he was told how to separate theory from practice.

Bill, after three years of sharing, shows no interest at all, be it Chas theory or Pre-tuning practice. I'm still puzzled and do not really know what to think.

Together, iH + tuning approximations make many checks pretty blunt, a useless misleading exercise, as iH will upset the tuning. That is why Bill says (and wrote) that octaves do not define the character of a tuning, and 12ths and 15ths end up being all over the place.

Also, 4ths and 5ths are still said to be similar and there is no acceptance of the 5ths beat rate inversion; by adding this to the above, I get an answer.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
Posted By: Forrest Halford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 01:22 PM

I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 01:49 PM

I guess Bill want to "sell" it own method, but he is reading too (I noticed he changed his unison tuning and possibly lever method since 2 years - which is OK, anyone can change at some point, but I recall the way he was tuning that piano in the thread my piano in EBVT, could not really hold in time, while his actual tone is better wink

In fact I told to Weiyan (and to Inlanding 2 years ago) how easy I find the intervals tuning in the pretuning ; indeed I have seen that with some experience at hand, but when I see how Inlanding developed a nice tone, and how fast Weiyan is catching on unison work I ma persuaded that things will go faster by now.

We are breaking a myth there, about the so many long time necessary to learn to build a decent tuning (well it is left hours and numerous pianos to tune but the time lost looking for answers is certainly reduced).

I mostly believe incorrect explanations with no focus on the important parts, the abuse of ETD, makes the tuners way less efficiently learning, then many are simply "doing their job" without trying to learn more, as soon as the customer is satisfied - I experiment the same here with pianists that are immediately aware that the tuning does not move, that it is "solid" gives a robustness sensation, confidence in playing, to me the robustness of a tuning is something that is perceived, the lack of is more or less.

I now have seen Chas tunings a year later, and most often the relation stay put (no explanations on that)

But having some structurally comprehensible definitions, finding words and exercises, was not so easy.

Inlanding was lucky he could work in a shop tuning different pianos, hence his fast results (he also have a good musical sense that certainly makes a difference between tuners)

I believe that as soon Weyian could setup a good temperament (or pre tuning temperament, so to say), if he could work on different pianos he will progress fast.

I am persuaded that the intervals will be mastered soon.

Could you record a tuning sequence, Alfredo (may be not on a concert piano, but something that is done more fast wink

Did you notice the raising of torque on pianos that look almost un-tuneable (I hope you don't have many in your customers !)


I will tune a vertical tonight, I have PR 1 1/2 tone in January, using the pretuning method. I will record it before tuning... it is supposed to be really out of tune, but the customer , a cellist, tells me "there are a few notes" ... We will see.

Greetings





Posted By: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:07 PM

I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.

"breaking" of all intervals when the unisons are tuned is surprising and helps to avoid that too actives 10ths and 6ths we have in the standard method

I wonder if the "energy method" as I used in unison tuning can be used for octaves, I would suggest it can be the foundation of a good octave, then we only have to regulate the "opening" , hence the speed at which the beat begin to speak.

On a good piano the vibes of the strings are felt in the tuning hammer also.

All the best !
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


Hello thank you for the explanations, I am sure you have no problem basically, if you can obtain reconciliation of your intervals, have everything following a given structure, in the end the piano is sounding in tune.

Looking at the speed of 5ths and 4ths you allow, I wonder if the tone is not very "greasy" with much activity. Where do you hear the intervals are the most consonant ?

Also in your temperament sequence you did not include checks of progressiveness for the fast beating intervals, which are to me the mean to keep the control on the slow beating ones.

You aim for a progressiveness of 5 ths and 4ths in the A3 A4 octave, if I follow you well

A good sequence allow for checks between chromatic , contiguous or a step apart fast beating intervals,

If you could post a few samples of your temperament sequence I like to hear them.

Something I like is that you are tuning beats in slow beating intervals, this is opposed to what many of us are trying to do i.e tend to pure 5ths or pure intervals. In the end that gives you more freeness and good listening habits may be possibly a particular tone, that can be appreciated .

The method seem to me as an somewhat old way as was told some time ago, before the trade begin to use the 3ds (it could be along time ago, as Pleyel have proposed a ladder of third based temperament.

Do you tune on one string (strip muting) ?

Best regards
Posted By: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 03:13 PM

I do use a strip for the middle part of the piano and use the rubber for the bass and treble, starting with tuning the right string first and then the middle and then the left after the strip mute. That gives me the ability to use the rubber mute to have only two strings to vibrate. Going down the bass I tune the left first and then the right. Very few times will I mute the whole piano. If I do I am tying to set the middle string across the whole scale first consternating on octaves only.
I also check the 3rd's and the 6th's of the temperament. If I do it right and the piano responds the 3rd's will graduate from slow to fast beats starting from F3 and A3 to F4 to C#4. The 6th's will be the same graduated slow to faster beats.
I cannot brag on myself, but I have tuned for people like Brian Adams, Alicia Keys, Ronnie Milsap, Victor Borge, and many others and a number of Professors of music from universities in Alabama and Florida. Also studio musicians form Nashville that come down to play here in Montgomery. I have had no bad words about my tuning as to date, ( except for the piano that was available to them where they came to. Some find it hard to play on a 5 1/2 foot when they are use to a 9 foot). The way I tune I have a good built in vibrato that will sound great on a good piano. I have tuned a many bad sounding pianos that no matter what you do it sounds like it needs tuning. I find that most home pianos are, (at least around here) are very poor sounding. Mostly due to a piano sold that has not been prep. Most people do not,(to my dismay) hear the difference like I do. A few will appreciate a good tuning. Every once in a while I run across someone who hears things that I don't hear. One lady I tuned for kept telling me the Eb 6 did not sound right to her, so I did the octave and let her hear and then the unisons and she was fine for about 2 minutes. She kept going back to it. But for the most after 23 years I have been successful and got many repeat costumers. Not that I have no need to continue to hone my skills. Every piano is exercising and honing my skills to be a better tuner.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by woodog
I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest


Hi Woodog,

You can well hope that, I have no doubts. Tuning can be fan, and you seem to like it.

Originally Posted by RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


..."I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above."...

That makes A3-D4 rolling (do you mean beating) more than D4-G4. Or perhaps you meant G3?

..."Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F,..."...

If that works for you, that is good. I normally prefer to position (roll-wise // beating) every interval in between other intervals, so that I can compare and check sooner (asap), before I've gone too far. For instance, looking at your sequence (which may work perfectly Ok) I would invert the beat rate of A3-D4 and D4-G4, so that the latter rolls more than the former. Then, I would make sure that C4-G4 rolls more than D4-A4 and that C4-F4 rolling is in between A3-D4 *////* D4-G4.

..."I do the F octave, then F to Bb,..."...

Which F, F3 or F4?

..."checking also ovtave F to Bb,..."...

So you go F4 Bb3… there I would make sure that this 5th rolls more (thinking in terms of progression) than C4-G4.

..."Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin)."...

Yes, I understand (correct?) that you go through the whole temperament section, before checking if E4 is tuned to A.

..."If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp."...

F4 to Bb, I think you mean Bb3, then this 5th rolls more than F3-Bb4 4th? That is not my case.

..."I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3."...

C6 and G4 make a 12th, that rolls as the 4th C4-G3. This is not my case. Anyway, for instance, basing on your sequence, I'd check the 10ths progression already at A3-C#5, looking for the correct similarity with F3-A4, then getting to C6 with 10ths and 12ths all in the correct order.

..."I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves."...

It is good that you are happy with your tuning, as it's good that you are willing to compare your procedure as well.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:00 PM

I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.
For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by RichDHill
I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.
For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.


I see, now (perhaps) I get it better. But then I get lost:

..."So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp)...

I understand D4 from A3;

..."G from D, (2 rolls sharp)...

G3-D4

..."C from G, (3 rolls sharp)...

C4 from G3

..."F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above),...

You mean F3 from C4? Then F4?

..."Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp)...

Here (perhaps) I get lost. Is it Bb3? And the 4ths F3-Bb3 rolls less than the 5th Bb3-F4?


Posted By: RichDHill

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 10:10 PM

The temperament is between F3 and F4. All 5th's I do are 3 to the sharp, and all 4th's are 2 to the sharp. If I do A to E it will be 2 to the flat. Instead I tune the E from the B because it will be from the top and be 3 rolls sharp. If I get it right the A from E will be 2 rolls flat. I always tune from the sharp. It is easier to come form the top to set the pin than from the bottom.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/09/12 11:34 PM


Thank you Rich.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 10:29 AM

hello Rich I imagine the tuning as much appreciated for popular music, I suppose. I really wish I could hear a sample . If you think about it you are also respecting some model( I am unsure the word equation apply there)
I still dont understand your test with notes in the 7 octave. Or do you mean 7th?
best regards.

that is fun how we can get used to an interval quality. for instance enlarging tend to favor the projection of tone, I have seen a tuning done with small octaves that was pleasing singers but could not be used in concert without miking.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.


Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.
If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide.
C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow.
Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.


Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.
If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide.
C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow.
Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.



Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th;
- C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 03:15 PM

Thank you, Afredo.

I always doing mental exercise.

Had tuned for hours, still cannot reconcile C-G/D-G. G4 is last note to tune, the problem is inherited from C#4.

I don't expect any result in first few tunings, just for building up the sense of geometry.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/10/12 03:32 PM

Good comment, Weiyan.

In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence. Make sure that intervals are on the correct side and... Do not forget to take a brake, things go deep down...in time.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 01:33 AM

Godd morning.

To get last minute advice before today's tuning session.

Thank you for reminding taking brake. Try to slice to 30 minutes sessions.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 03:11 AM

Analysis of sides of fifth:

A3-E4,
Tune center of E4 to pure fifth. Higher partials seems beating. There is beating at attack. The fifth may not pure.
Tune left to beat at lower side,
Tune right to beat at higher side.

Its hard to distinguish the side of fifth.


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 06:09 AM

Today, 11-June's morning session.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012
A3-D4, D4-A4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-june-2012
C4-E4 slower than B3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-june-2012
A3-D4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-june-2012
B3-F#4 too fast
C#4-G#4 too fast, D4-A4 faster than previous interval.

Correction:
Lower D4, A3-D4, D4-E4 will beat slower.

Thank you.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 06:46 AM

Corrections:

Lower D4, and fine tune the fourth progression.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-oct-c-11-june-2012
D4-A4 seems beat too fast. The A3-A4 may too narrow. Should raise A4 little.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-c-11-june-2012
D4-F#4 slower than previous interval

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-c-11-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-c-11-june-2012
A3-E4, B3-F#4, C#4-G#4 too fast

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 07:04 AM


Hi Weiyan,

I have heard your rec. (previous post).

I am really happy for what you are able to hear. Also your written move (previous post) was correct.

I will be more precise later on. Well done.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 09:15 AM

Hi Afredo,

Thank you.

Sorry for making you too busy.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 11:06 AM

Alfredo is faster to help you with structure, I appreciate it it give me a rest wink Thank you Alfredo.

It is easy to be confused between too large 5ths(beating slow) and too small (correctly beating).

I usually recognize that immediately on a piano because of the behavior of the activity, too straight and at the same time unbalanced, but on the recordings I can get confused easily, I find.

Weyian you are progressing at the speed of light (of sound I may say wink . Let me suggest to you both that when recording the 5ths or the 4ths you sequence them in the same order than the temperament. That would make it easier for all of us to find the relations.
What do you think Alfredo ? chromatic sequence may be used later.

Also, the M6th are very useful . May be you could record 6 notes in sequence from the beginning of the temperament, then 7 , etc.

I understand well you are working on 4ths, 5ths and octaves (the octaves begin to be quite good and you are hearing and thinking "structurally" which is what is necessary.

Once the basic reasoning is obtained, you can tune directly the sequence, as mistakes are more easily corrected when more notes/intervals arrive , for instance the A3 F# sixth give yet a first idea of whenever the precedent intervals are good or not.

Congratulations on your tuning lever precision BTW That is amazing to follow your advancement.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 02:00 PM

Yes, Isaac, once again you have read into my thoughts! You see, perhaps we both are from a different planet ;-) but yours is still... faster!

I did think of asking Weiyan for the sequence exact order recording, then I read "G4 is the last note" he tunes... that is why I wrote ..."In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence."

How nice to see that you too are "there".

About 6ths, it is precisely as you say, A3-F#4 gives the first FBI measure and relates this FBI with the previous SBI's; we evaluate that 6th out of its tension, taste, flavor, I'd say intonation... I'm sure we'll get there too.

I open all Weiyan's recs (M3's, 5ths and 4ths) and play the intervals jumping from one window to another one, so I can follow many relations at once, like if I was to play.

I'll be back soon,

A l f r e d o



Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 03:15 PM

Isaac sent me the tuning procedure.

A4->A3
A3->D4
A3->E4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
C4->G4

It usually leave the gap in C4-G4/D4-G4

In the procedure sheet, after tuning F#4, check with sixth. I think its A3-F#4. Should you tell me how to use this checking?

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/11/12 04:34 PM

Weiyan, please do not feel sorry, I am very happy when I can be of help, and your desires and efforts may help others too. So… we may all be happy.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: about 5 bps - too sweet, should beat faster, more tense;
A#3-D4: nice/a bit too fast - you can hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
B3-D#4: nice - very similar (slower) to previous - that difference is advanced stuff;

C4-E4: almost Ok - slower than previous;
C#4-F4: almost Ok - you hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
D4-F#4: too slow - compare with A3-C#, you hear it is similar - you want it similar to previous;
D#4-G4: not too bad;

E4-G#4: leave these out.
F4-A4: ==

Let's consider 5ths (it is a very important "harmonic" interval and you said A3-E4 is difficult, let's work on difficulties first):

1 - A3-E4: you can hear some movement… but… C4-E4 is quite nice, very little slow;
2 - A#3-F4: nice - but C#-F4 is a bit tense (too wide) - compare C-E and C#-F4, C-E about 8 bps, C#-F4 is beating as a flow, not countable;
3 - B3-F#4: too much movement, check D4-F#4, slower (sweeter) than C#-F4…
4 - C4-G4: nice - check D#4-G4, nice:
5 - C#4-G#4: too much movement, check E-G#, nice
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much.

- . - . - . -

After your corrections.

Your analysis was correct! You have improved C4-E4 and D4-G#4; at this stage, refine the M3's similarities: A3-C#4 is too slow; C#4-F4 (too fast)//D4-F#4 (slow) these are too different.

Perhaps A3 can go down (in pitch), so A3-E4 gets closer to narrow-just and A3-C#4 gets faster;
Perhaps D4 down, so A3-C#4 and A3#-D4 get more similar and D4-F#4 gets wider (faster);
Perhaps A#3 up, so A#3-F4 gets narrow and A#3-D4 more similar to neighbors;
Perhaps C4 down, so improving C-E and C-G.

As Isaac said, you have done a great job. Now, also move on above A4… use octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and 5ths (almost-just \\ on the narrow side). From F4-C5 up… go for octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and aurally beat-less 5ths.

I see you have posted, I'll reply later.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 03:29 AM

Thank you.

Excitintg! Two weeks before, I even don't know how to hear beat. I couldn't believe I could move a pure fifth narrow little to beat 0.5bps. Issac can give witness.

Try climb up to A6 to day.



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 05:43 AM


Hi Weiyan,

It is good that you go up the scale, give your ears (and pins in the middle octave) some rest.

Perhaps you have a brake and can read this.

A3 and C#5 give you a 10th. You go up the scale and you can listen to the chromatic 10ths progression (ccompare beats), so that you can refine your aural skill for FBI's.

Evaluate beats, and also try to distinguish other intervals issues, like tension (low/high) or taste-flavor (sweet/acid).

Have a nice day, a.c.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 10:24 AM

Sorry haven't tuned today.

I have a criminal slander case.

The police opened a file of a man use an private Email as witness to accuse me slander. It's strange here slander is criminal case, use private email as witness is super terrible. For example, I send email to Issac back mouth Someone. Then Issac forward to Someone. Someone use the email to accuse me. Police may charge me with this email. Nearly no freedom here. I go to relate party to complain and have appoint with a regional Councillor tomorrow noon.

So sad.

Sorry for out topic.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 11:05 AM

Hello weyian I am sorry to read that. i am unsure I get it all. The privacy seem to be a different concept than I thought but seem to me that there is attack to ors by forwarding a private mail.
I hope. it will turn to a good end.

All the best.c
Isaac
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 01:38 PM

Issac,

Thank you. Sorry for don't further reply any matter about my legal case. I don't want to spam this thread. I post my case here to let others know I still working at CHAS.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 03:58 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I too am very sorry to hear that. Stay calm, things will hopefully get fixed.

Missing your birds... Keep in touch,

Alfredo
.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/12/12 09:33 PM


I would like to reach you, Weiyan, with my best wishes for tomorrow's meeting.

Chinese folk music - Red River (pipa solo), Liu Fang concert live 刘芳琵琶‬

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QfjG9V4-zE
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 12:29 AM

Good morning.

Haven't heard Chinese music for tens years. Liu Fang had expressed a Chinese heart with Pipa.

[Linked Image]

This a saying of Confucius about music, hand written by me with round brush.

Start today's journey.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 06:37 AM

Hi friends,

This is today's freshly baked crack potter.

Sorry for its raining today, so no much birds whistle.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-june-2012
A#3-D#4, D#4-G#4 FAST
C4-F3 Slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-june-2012
A#3-F4 Slow
A#4-G#4 Fast

Had correction after recording. Sorry for no record.
The wrong beating mostly due to pin setting problem.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-f3-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves F3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-d4-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves D4-G#4

Alfredo asked me to tune the octaves up. Sorry, I tune up and down, not followed the instruction strictly. Its strange tune the octave before the temperament is OK. Its magic that when tuning the octave, the errors in temperament are enlarged and easily be fixed.

Weiyan's naive tips today:

Move before the potter is crack. Then crack it from outside.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 01:12 PM

Just tune the octaves down to C1.

Its interesting to tune by fifth.

For example:
Tune A3->A2
Tune C3->A2 from narrow side, until there is marginal beat. The octave is ready.

After tuning the octaves, test by 10ths, they are nice and consistence. Test by chords, the voice is open.

OMG, some chords are sour. Actually some thirds out of control. Still take some more time to practice. The pin setting is next target.

Why its easy to crack? I found that a very slight crack in A3-A4 octave, the crack is enlarged in octaves. Fortunately, its easy to amend. Its easy to locate the crack.

Aflredo didn't tell me the procedure explicitly. Yesterday instruct me to tune the octaves, tune the fifth marginal narrow. After hours practice octaves, I get what you said. You seems a great teacher who never give explicit instruction, just let the student to discover it. How amazing.

I had asked Issac why call it pre-tuning instead temperament. Issac didn't give me an answer. Its better to let me discover the answer. After days of practice, I try to sum up my impression of CHAS.

For CHAS doesn't have temperament concept as ET do. In ET tuning, tune and fine tune temperament octave, then extend to octaves. Use this concept in CHAS is disaster.

In CHAS, all 88 notes is a temperament. Pre-tune A3-A4. When the progressions near OK, tune octaves. If fifth and octave cannot reconcile, there is a crack. Amend the crack.

Good night.



Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/13/12 09:25 PM


Hi Weiyan,

It will be evening in Honk Kong when I will be able to reply. Your hand-written saying is very nice, could you translate that saying by Confucius?

Now at yours it is almost... Good morning, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 12:31 AM

Good morning.

Quote
子與人歌而善,必使反之,而後和之。

The good fellowship of Confucius.
When the Master was in company with a person who was singing, if he sang well, he would make him repeat the song, while he accompanied it with his own voice.
http://www.cnculture.net/ebook/jing/sishu/lunyu_en/07.html


This may be the most abused, most misinterpreted Confucius saying. Music is the second of Confucius' six subjects in education.

Quote
The Six Arts formed the basis of education in ancient Chinese culture. During the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BCE), students were required to master the "liù yì" (六藝) (Six Arts):
Rites (禮)
Music (樂)
Archery (射)
Charioteering (御)
Calligraphy (書)
Mathematics (数)
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Just tune the octaves down to C1.

Its interesting to tune by fifth.

For example:
Tune A3->A2
Tune C3->A2 from narrow side, until there is marginal beat. The octave is ready.

After tuning the octaves, test by 10ths, they are nice and consistence. Test by chords, the voice is open.

OMG, some chords are sour. Actually some thirds out of control. Still take some more time to practice. The pin setting is next target.

Why its easy to crack? I found that a very slight crack in A3-A4 octave, the crack is enlarged in octaves. Fortunately, its easy to amend. Its easy to locate the crack.

Aflredo didn't tell me the procedure explicitly. Yesterday instruct me to tune the octaves, tune the fifth marginal narrow. After hours practice octaves, I get what you said. You seems a great teacher who never give explicit instruction, just let the student to discover it. How amazing.

I had asked Issac why call it pre-tuning instead temperament. Issac didn't give me an answer. Its better to let me discover the answer. After days of practice, I try to sum up my impression of CHAS.

For CHAS doesn't have temperament concept as ET do. In ET tuning, tune and fine tune temperament octave, then extend to octaves. Use this concept in CHAS is disaster.

In CHAS, all 88 notes is a temperament. Pre-tune A3-A4. When the progressions near OK, tune octaves. If fifth and octave cannot reconcile, there is a crack. Amend the crack.

Good night.





Hello Weyan, I like your comments there..

Sorry about the pre-tuning, it is a mean to anticipate the instrument settling, it uses the way the piano is reacting to more tension, that is why intervals are enlarged more than what is expected in the end.

When using that process , at each tuning you developp a feel for the settling of the piano, something that is computed by the ETD in PR mode and then be done by ear (you gain a better knowledge of the process, which differs in the bass and the high treble, hence the strip muting of only the mediums and the beginning of the treble.

It oblige the tuner to learn something new in terms of pitch appreciation but provide a way to work in one (longer) pass.

Thank you for your writings, that is refreshing.

I will listen later to your records but the little bit I heard let me say : "that is yet better than the last time..."

I recorded me unreasoning and correcting a vertical while going from 445 to 442 Hz (I forget to record since I finished the "pre tuning" ) I should edit the file as it is long (1 hour) because I work on tone quality , that slow the process.

http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/vertical-piano-atlas-unisoning

Best wishes

Isaac
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 11:07 AM

Hi Issac,

Sorry for the link is broken.

Better to ignore previous records. Tomorrows far better than yesterday's.

Today tune the whole piano. The voice is very open, may be too open. Tomorrow tune again and post some record.

The procedure I used to tune octave:

A4-A5:
Tune A5 from D5 to marginal beat at narrow side. Then check A4-A5 if it beats.

A3-A2:
Tune A2 to E3 to marginal beat at narrow side. Then check A3-A2.
Bass tune very nice. Parallel 8th is very open.

Also check with 10th.

Not sure if this method OK.

EDIT:
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller114-june-2012
This record can give an impression of the tuning.

BYE.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 01:36 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for translating Confucius' saying, his depth is sound and silent. You have also added two words to my vocabulary: "jargon" and "amend". uoy knahT.

Let's see your fourths, where you did Self C.: "A#3-D#4, D#4-G#4 FAST, C4-F3(?4?) Slow"

A3-D4: about 2 bps, too wide
A#3-D#4: about 3.5 bps, too much, B3-D# is a bit sour, you were correct
B3-E4: almost Ok
C4-F4: almost just (beat-less), you were correct
C#4-F#4: about 8 bps, too much
D4-G4: about 2.5 bps, too much
D#4-G#4: about double the above, too much, you were correct
E4-A4: nice, a bit slow

Your base:

A3-A4: good, a bit shy, make it wider, you can always get it down (with a forte blow?)
A3-D4: perhaps wrong side?
D4-A4: too moving, wrong side?
A3-E4: nice!
E4-A4: shy, weak, make it more nervous;

Thirds:

A3-C#4: better than last time, still a bit slow
A#3-D4: slow, loose, sweet, slower than previous
B3-D#4: fast, very tense, check A#3-D#4 (too wide), perhaps D#4 must go down?

C4-E4: about 3.5 bps, even slower than A#3-D#4, too slow
C#4-F4: very tense, too much, beats are in a flow
D4-F#4: nice, tense-harmonious and singing
D#4-G4: sour, check D4-G4 (too wide)

E4-G#4: a bit slow-nice
F4-A4: nice, check C4-F4, raise both pitches
F#4-A#4: I usually tune A#4 comparing the previous 4th, 5th and octave
G4-B4: too sweet - here 3rds are savoury, a bit salty

Project:

G4 down (in pitch)

A#3, C#4, D4, F#4, A4 up, raise their pitch

Check 5ths:

1 - A3-E4: nice
2 - A#3-F4: nice, if you raise A#3 (see project), you raise also F, so you can correct C4-F4
3 - B3-F#4: too still, B3 up so B3-D#4 gets less wide
4 - C4-G4: too still, too just, leave a slow/late opening, G4 down (see project)
5 - C#4-G#4: too early movement, about 1 bps, perhaps wrong side?
6 - D4-A4: make it more still, less activity, A4 and D4 up (see project)

You have written very nice things, I'll be back later, I enjoyed birds singing.

Alf.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 01:51 PM

HEllo Weyian :

Yes the tuning was so long it could not be uploaded or treated, I dont know.

Here is a part of it :http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/unisons-corrections

http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/unisons-corrections

Sorry I will write later...
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 02:22 PM

Hi Afredo,

Thank you.

The A3-D4 at wrong side. I found out it later.

"amend" is to modify for the better. This may be wrong wording.

"jargon" is bottle neck.

Hi Issac,

Thank you for the sound file.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/14/12 09:08 PM


Hi Weiyan, I listened to the recs below:

..."Had correction after recording. Sorry for no record.
The wrong beating mostly due to pin setting problem.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-f3-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves F3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-d4-g-4-13-june-2012
Octaves D4-G#4

- . - . - . -

Perhaps you yourself can notice that some intervals need to be corrected. Let me know.

..."Alfredo asked me to tune the octaves up. Sorry, I tune up and down, not followed the instruction strictly."...

No problem. Do you have the Flow-chart (pdf.) of the sequence already?

..."Its strange tune the octave before the temperament is OK. Its magic that when tuning the octave, the errors in temperament are enlarged and easily be fixed."...

Yes, enlarging the mid-range, all intervals reflect - step after step - their individual chromatic tensions, showing their long-distance coherence.

..."Weiyan's naive tips today:

Move before the potter is crack. Then crack it from outside."

Thank you.

Alf.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 08:17 AM

Good afternoon.

These are today's practice session.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-june-2012
C#4-F4 seems too slow

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-june-2012
A#3-D#4, D4-G4 too fast
E4-A4 seems very fast in the record, but listen to the piano, it seems OK.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-june-2012
G#4 too flat, had been raised after recording.

Use only 1.5 hours to tune these 12 notes. Among 1.5 hours, slept one hour.


Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 08:47 AM

These is today's corrections.

Please ignore previous recordings. This is the final submission of today.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-a-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-a-15-june-2012
A#4-D4 need to tune faster
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-a-15-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-a-15-june-2012

After days frustration, things become easy.

In 8 o'clock evening, complete tuning all octaves and unisons.
Below is a test playing.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller-15-june-2012

This yesterday's test playing:
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/burgmuller114-june-2012

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 01:37 PM


Hi Weiyan, good evening.

From the base:

A3-A4: OK- too still, up a little bit
A3-D4: too wide
D4-A4: too much noise, up A4 and down (forte blow?) D4
A3-E4: too narrow
E4-A4: a bit wide, up E4 (and A4)

Fifths:

A3-E4: it moves too soon, it is a bit too narrow, check C4-E4… it is Ok, remember this;
A#3-F4: too narrow, about 2.5 bps, check C#4-F4, too slow, too sweet, 6 or 7 bps, more typical for F3-A3//F#3-A#3 (that area)

B3-F#4: nice, check D4-F#4… nice
C4-G4: too narrow, about 1.5 bps, check D#4-G4… nice, remember;
C#4-G#4: like above, check E4-G#4… Ok… try to remember (*)
D4-A4: make it closer to just (see the base)

Project:

Up E4, check C4-E4…, up C4, check (4th)… up F4… solve A#3-F, up G4 (remember D#4-G4?)

Forths:

A3-D4: too fast, down D4, check A#3-D4, too slow… down A#3, in direction of A#3-F4 (maybe ok? see project)
A#3-D#4: wrong side? check B3-D#4… nice! check D#4-G#4… fast, up D#4 (join G4, remember?)... down C#4 (*)(remember?), solve A3-C#4 (a little bit too sour (fast)) and C#4-G4 and C#4-F4.

The deeper we go, the thiner the adjustments will get. Control your body, relax your ears, breathe natural (calm). Enlarge your temperament, yes, and follow chromatic intervals coherence.

Please, let me know about two questions (in my previous post).

I'll be travelling until Tuesday, have a nice weekend.

a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/15/12 02:32 PM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you. Hope you have a nice weekend.

Sorry for missed the two questions. Its hard to find out it for the posts are move fast.

For thirds I am not so sure. I may confuse too fast with too slow. Could you post a thirds progression for reference?

I get some hints of hearing fifth: count on the start of move.

Try to correct in the weekend.

Bye.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/18/12 02:36 PM

Hi friends, this is my today's tuning.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-june-2012
D4-F#4 sounds strange. Don'e know how to soft it.
E4-G#4 seems no beat.
C4-E4 too sweet
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-june-2012
A3-D4 too fast
B3-E4, C4-F4, D4-G4 too slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-june-2012
A3-E4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4 Too fast

Raise E4, Correct B3-E4, C4-E4, A3-E4
Raise G4,
Raise G#4

Will try correction tomorrow.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/19/12 07:29 AM

Old Post...

Hi Weiyan,

I've copied the post (below) of mine (10th of June) because, in what I wrote, there is an error. As an exercise, you may re-read it and spot the error.

#1911375 - June 10, 2012 02:56 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Online content

Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th;
- C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".

- . - . - . -

Down to your recent posting,

The base:

A3-A4: too still, it want that to be wider, you want to hear a growing slow movement after 1.5/2 seconds, A3 down or A4 up;
A3-E4: too narrow,
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: too close to just (no beat)
D4-A4: too close to just (no movement)

Fifths:

A3-E4: too narrow, check C4-E4… too sweet
(2) A#3-F4: too narrow, check C#-F4… too sweet, make it wider
B3-F#4: nice, check D4-F#4… fast, hmmm… D4 was too low? (see the base)
C4-G4: too narrow, about 2 bps, check D#4-G4… no beating, up G4 you improve two intervals
C#4-G#4: nice, check E4-G#4… no tension… hmmm...
D4-A4: see base, check F4-A4… nice-sweet… up D4 and A4

Forths:

A3-D4: see base, check A#3-C4… sweet, slow, you already know D4 must go up
A#-D#: about 2 bps, check B3-D#4… Ok-little sour, perhaps perhaps D#4 must go down? see above D#4-G4
B3-E4: too just, you already know about E4
C4-F4: too just (no beating), up F4… you repair (2)
C#4-F#4: hmmm… check A3-C#4… nice (almost Ok), check D4-F#4, check C#4-F4, hmmm…
D4-G4: Ok, up D4 and G4
D#4-G#4: inverted?

Yourself-critique:


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-june-2012
1- D4-F#4 sounds strange. Don'e know how to soft it.
2- E4-G#4 seems no beat.
3- C4-E4 too sweet
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-june-2012
4- A3-D4 too fast
5- B3-E4, C4-F4, D4-G4 too slow
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-june-2012
6- A3-E4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4 Too fast

Raise E4, Correct B3-E4, C4-E4, A3-E4
Raise G4,
Raise G#4

- . - . - . -

1- you are correct, up D4
2- yes
3- yes
4- non correct
5- Ok, listen again to D4-G4
6- Ok, listen again to C#4-G#4

Very good SC, Weiyan, good job! When ever, listen to your M3 progression and try (exercise) to spot large or "fast-slow-inverted" beat rates.

Have a nice day,a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/19/12 03:29 PM

Hi Alfredo,
Thank you.

I am still learning to hear fast beats. Sometimes confused too slow with too fast.

Left the piano untouched today. Will do the correction tomorrow.

Good night.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/20/12 12:54 PM

Hi,

This is today's tuning session. Correct tempered at wrong side. Improve pin setting.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-june-2012
Octave seems too wide. A3-D4 should faster,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-june-2012
A3-C#4 too sweet
C#4-F4 too tense


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-june-2012
C#4-A#4 too fast
Raise C#4, correct A3-C#4, C#4-F4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-june-2012
A#3-F4 move too soon
Raise F-4, since A#4 raised, raise F-4 more than A#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-20-june-2012
Finally tuned some octaves, E3 to A#3, to learn octaves at the same time.

Will finish whole piano tomorrow. Friday visit China no tuning. Hope this weekend has a good sounding piano.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/21/12 10:21 AM


Hi Weiyan,

The base:

A3-A4: Ok- (little too wide) - if you tune little higher than 440 you can always lower A4
A3-D4: too just, (make it close to 1 bps)
D4-A4: inverted?
A3-E4: very good
E4-A4: little wide (due to A4)

Fifths:

A3-E4: see base
A#3-F4: too just (no beat)
B3-F#4: a bit narrow
C4-G4: beating a lot - inverted?
C#4-G#4: too just
D4-A4: different from your base, perhaps something has moved

Thirds:

A3-C#4: slow
A#3-D4: slower than previous, D4 up (see base)
B3-D#4: Ok, sweet, compare with A3-C#4, make it more similar (otherwise the progression is inverted) perhaps B3 is too high?
C4-E4: nice, you want it a little bit faster
C#4-F4: fast, check A#3-F4, put F4 down? put A#3 up?
D4-F#4: nice, check B3-F#4, if you raise D4 you raise also F#4, so D4-F#4 does not change and you improve B3-F#4
D#4-G4: sweet, up G4, improve C4-G4, it was not inverted.
E4-G#4: Ok, put C#4 up
F4-A4: Ok, sweet, perhaps A4 has gone down

Fourths:

A3-D4: see base
A#-D#: too just,
B3-E4: fast
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: fast
D4-G4: a bit fast
D#4-G#4: too just
E4-A4: something has moved

Your S.C.:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-june-2012
1 - Octave seems too wide. A3-D4 should faster,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-june-2012
2 - A3-C#4 too sweet
3 - C#4-F4 too tense

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-june-2012
4 - C#4-A#4 too fast
Raise C#4, correct A3-C#4, C#4-F4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-june-2012
5 - A#3-F4 move too soon
6 - Raise F-4, since A#4 raised, raise F-4 more than A#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-20-june-2012
Finally tuned some octaves, E3 to A#3, to learn octaves at the same time.

1 - correct
2 - correct -
3 - yes
4 - yes, perfect
5 - non correct
6 - yes, you meant A#3.

Very good, now you are improving too fast! :-)

Do you have the sequence flow-chart? Now you could start developing and comparing 6ths.

Buona serata,

Alfredo
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/21/12 03:02 PM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Issac had send me the tuning procedure. After tuning F#4 from B3, compare sixths as suggest in the chart. I don't know how to use sixths.

This is today's tuning. Need to improve hammer skill. I found its difficult to move a hairy little. Pin setting is still big trouble.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-21-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-21-june-2012
C4-E4 too slow, difficult to correct it.
D#4-G5 seems too slow, not sure.
C#4-F4 should be slower
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-21-june-2012
C4-F4 too fast
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-21-june-2012
C4-G4 too fast

Lower F4, improve C#4-F4, C4-F4
Raise G4, improve C4-G4, D#4-G4(if its too slow)

Good night.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/22/12 01:51 PM

Hi Weiyan,

..."Issac had send me the tuning procedure. After tuning F#4 from B3, compare sixths as suggest in the chart. I don't know how to use sixths."...

I evaluate the first 6th available, A3-F#4, because it tells me (only by my own relative sensation) how the FBI curve is being shaped, how it originates right at the beginning.

I want that 6th to be fast but pleasant, tense but not too nervous, not sour, inspiring-tense, inclined-tense, joy-tense, hope-tense, proposal-tense, encouraging-tense, it must recall proud and best intensions, it must smell like believed-deserved success, like true emotion. Of course, this is what that 6th can evoke me, but you can start understanding what it would evoke you, trying to relate your other senses and your power of abstraction.

From the sequence flowchart you will see that after A#3-F4... I tune G4, obviously from D4; then C4, which has to work all around, as a M3 (C4-E4), as a 5th and 4th. The reason why I do not tune C4 from F4, and G4 from C4, is that I prefer to go back to my base, by using D4 as a reference, in the idea that I can reduce multiple (previous) approximations. It also gives me the feeling of "meeting" F4 while coming from the "other" direction, as that is for me the correct way to shape a whole, two parts that join together.

..."This is today's tuning. Need to improve hammer skill. I found its difficult to move a hairy little. Pin setting is still big trouble."...

I think you are right, hammer skill takes time… for wide intervals, use the forte blow for "hairy little" moves, so you can also stabilize your centre string; for narrow intervals, first get to just (from above), then play a forte blow, so the fifth gets narrow and (hopefully) more stable.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-21-june-2012

A3-A4: nice
A3-D4: little too wide
D4-A4: little too narrow, make it almost no-movement
A3-E4: nice
E4-A4: nice

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-21-june-2012
1 - C4-E4 too slow, difficult to correct it.
2 - D#4-G5 seems too slow, not sure.
3 - C#4-F4 should be slower


Thirds - please notice that progression: Ok-fast // Slow // nice-fast // very slow // fast // nice-slow // nice // nice // slow.

Project: put down A#3, C4, D4, D#4, F4

Your S.C:

1 - see project, I compared C4 4th and 5th;
2 - yes, D#4 is too high (in pitch), make D#4-G5 very similar to E4-A4;
3 - yes, F4 wants to go down

Very good Weiyan, today I have to stop here. In general, start spotting the worse interval, like C4-E4, and relax your ear… I think you can hear a lot now and you need some (physiological) time to settle your perceptions deep down and order your actions. Soon you will be able to compare 6ths too and choose which geometry you want to "play"... then it gets even nicer.

Buona serata,
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/23/12 01:03 PM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

I tuned C4 from F4, G4 from C4. Will try another way.

Will learn the sense of sixths. I think I can sense thirds and LBIs.

Next week will begin from this tuning. Hope it not move too much in these days playing.

Quote
Buona serata,

What's this?

Have nice weekend.

Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/23/12 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

I tuned C4 from F4, G4 from C4. Will try another way.

Will learn the sense of sixths. I think I can sense thirds and LBIs.

Next week will begin from this tuning. Hope it not move too much in these days playing.

Quote
Buona serata,


What's this?

Have nice weekend.

Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

"Buona serata" means "have a nice evening".

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/12 02:40 AM

Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/12 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.

AC# beats very fast and A#D very slow. This is not ET.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/25/12 06:53 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I could not make it earlier today.

If you like you can compare your thirds 21th June/25th June

A3-C#4: Ok
A#3-D4: improved
B3-D#4: too slow, check A#3-D#4… too just, check B3-F#4, to narrow

C4-E4: improved, make it a little faster,
C#4-F4: improved, it is still a bit sweet
D4-F#4: improved,
D#4-G4: Not improved, a bit salty/sour, check D4-G4… too wide…

E4-G#4: improved progression with F4-A4
F4-A4: improved

Your base (25th june):

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, you would remember this during your tuning
A3-D4: too wide, if you put down D4, you put down also A#3, check A#3-F… too narrow, so you can put down A#3
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Evaluate thirds progression: Ok // Slow-sweet // like previous-sweet // sweet // nice // nice // fast // sweet-check C#-G#… up G# // nice.

Project: Put down A#3, B3, C4, D4, up G#, check F4 and remember A4.

Have a nice day, a.c.



Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/27/12 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Good morning,

Today have business so finished tuning this morning. Just correct the notes suggested by Aflredo.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-june-2012

良好的星期天, is this Buona domenica? a.c.
This is "Nice Sunday" or "Good Sunday". Chinese seldom use this phrase.

AC# beats very fast and A#D very slow. This is not ET.

Kees


Thank you for reminding that two thirds still not tuned.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/27/12 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

I could not make it earlier today.

If you like you can compare your thirds 21th June/25th June

A3-C#4: Ok
A#3-D4: improved
B3-D#4: too slow, check A#3-D#4… too just, check B3-F#4, to narrow

C4-E4: improved, make it a little faster,
C#4-F4: improved, it is still a bit sweet
D4-F#4: improved,
D#4-G4: Not improved, a bit salty/sour, check D4-G4… too wide…

E4-G#4: improved progression with F4-A4
F4-A4: improved

Your base (25th june):

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, you would remember this during your tuning
A3-D4: too wide, if you put down D4, you put down also A#3, check A#3-F… too narrow, so you can put down A#3
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Evaluate thirds progression: Ok // Slow-sweet // like previous-sweet // sweet // nice // nice // fast // sweet-check C#-G#… up G# // nice.

Project: Put down A#3, B3, C4, D4, up G#, check F4 and remember A4.

Have a nice day, a.c.


Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Bad good luck happened. My phone became brick last Saturday, so I have chance to change for a Windows phone. The computer is infected so I had chance to show off my computer ability to my son. I can tune a piano only two thirds not correct in two weeks intensive learning.

These days had little bit burn out. Will resume practice tomorrow.

Sorry for no birds whistle today.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/29/12 06:05 AM

Hi,

This is today's practice session. Just corrected notes as suggested by Alfred except C4. Had move C4 up and down, finally back to original. Move C4 destroy its relationship with F4 and F5.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-june-2012

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/29/12 03:53 PM


Hi Weiyan,

About the base, those intervals are very similar to the other recording. This time I try to be more precise:

A3-A4: Ok (to start with), it is a little wide, about 1 beat every 2 sec., get the feeling that it is opening/swelling after 2 sec., no real beating…
A3-D4: too wide, that is about 2 bps, try to make it 1 bps
D4-A4: Ok, because D4 and A4 are both high (in pitch)
A3-E4: Ok... careful because it tends to be too narrow
E4-A4: Ok, little wide, but you remember A4

Thirds progression: // Ok // Slower than previous // improved // too sweet- C4 wants to go down // nice-sweet // nice // improved // improved // nice //.

Fourths:

A3-D4: see base
A#3-D#4: too just, two moves... A#3-D4 is slow, D4 is high so...A#3 must go down, check A#3-F4... too narrow!
B3-E4: Ok-little fast
C4-F4: slow… C4 can go down?… check C4-G4… too narrow, put down C4 improving also C3-E3
C#4-F#4: Ok
D4-G4: too just, D4 down
D#4-G#4: too fast, D#4 up, in direction of A#3-D#4
E4-A4: Ok, see base… A4 down a bit

In the next days I'll be traveling for work, so we will have to wait for sometime. In the meantime, enlarge your mid-octave and develop your ear for no-beating 12ths, the first being A3-E5. Make octaves very very similar, they do open "more", chromatically progressive, but... very very slowly. Make sure that intervals are on the right side, and do not rush with your hammer, first focalize on the beat, then move your hammer.

You are doing well (in a short time); work "in time" Weiyan, and enjoy your breathing and your sounds.

Best wishes,

Alfredo
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 06/30/12 07:57 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Hope you have a success business trip.

I think I understand the octave more now. The higher partial appear after a short while, may be 1.5 - 2 seconds.

Its happy to go to the beatless 12th. Its a new challenge.

Thank you.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/04/12 03:18 PM

Sorry for making Alfredo busy enough. He's in business trip now.

This is today's practice. Retuned whole piano and rasied 10 cents. May be its too hot that the pitch dropped.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-4-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-4-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/10/12 03:58 PM

Still practicing.

The octave may be little bit wider.

Tune the 12th pure. The mistake in temperament is reflected in octave when a note cannot tune pure 12th.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-10-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/17/12 05:54 PM


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-10-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-10-july-2012

Hi Weiyan,

You have done a nice job, let's consider your last posting.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, perhaps A4 can be a little wider…
A3-D4: little slow
D4-A4: Ok, D4 and A4 can be a little higher (in pitch)
A3-E4: Very nice
E4-A4: Ok, A4 can be a little higher

Thirds progression: // Ok // Ok- a bit fast // slow // Ok- a bit fast // slow // nice-fast // Ok // Ok - too tense/salty // Ok

So, B3-D#4 and C#4-F need to be improved.

Check B3-E4... too just, B3 can go down. Check A#3-D#4… too fast, raise A#3 (improve A#3-F4, too just).

C#4-F: F4 up? Check C4-F4... too just, raise F4... and A4.

Check fourths:

A3-D4: little slow
A#3-D#4: fast, 2+ bps
B3-E4: Ok, too just
C4-F4: too just
C#4-F#4: fast, check B3-F#4 (B3 must go down), check D4-F#4… F#4 down a bit
D4-G4: Ok
D#4-G#4: fast, check C#4-G#4… reverse? Put down G#4 also improves E4-G#4
E4-A4: Ok, you remember A4.

All together you have improved a lot, Weiyan, and I hope you can hear those two slow 3rds (compare them and, if you wish, let me know) and G#4.

You wrote: ..."The octave may be little bit wider."...

Yes, you were right and you seem you are able to perceive also "fine" issues.

..."Tune the 12th pure. The mistake in temperament is reflected in octave when a note cannot tune pure 12th."...

Correct, like 10ths, 15ths and 17ths... 12ths work as a good "meter" and as a confortable reference for the Pre-form tuning. Keep on thinking in terms of "whole" geometry and interweaving all intervals and... enjoy your tunings.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/20/12 10:51 AM

Thank you.

Retuned the piano with Verituner ET, so can't check the G#4. I tuned the whole piano with Verituner to compare the sounding of ET with CHAS. For chords in higher octaves, CHAS seems rather calm. THis may due to inverted fifth progression.

Retuned the piano again next week.

Have a nice weekend!
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/26/12 03:49 PM

Hi, this is my this week's tuning.

It seems G#4 beat at wide side easily.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-26-july-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-26-july-2012

Thank you.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/25/12 01:32 AM

Still working on better tuning.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/25/12 10:28 PM

Hi,

Now back from vacation.

Thank you, Weiyan, for sharing your route, whenever...

Regards, a.c.

Chas Tunings:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=en

C.HA.S. Theory - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Professor Nicola Chiriano - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 04:44 AM

Thanks for the sharing. Great tuning and great pianist.

The D4-G4 seems very stretch.
D#4-G4 not sure too fast or too slow.
Its rather difficult to hear bit in 4th octave.

Is it possible to use F3-F4 octave?

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-30-aug-2012
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 08:04 AM

This is my second trial today. The last one totally mess.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-30-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-aug-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/30/12 05:43 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's work on your last post (second trial).

The base: All these five intervals (below) sound too pure (too still/no movement/no beat). In particular:

A3-A4: Very "just" (you want A4 on the wide side)
A3-E4: Too close to just
E4-A4: As above
A3-D4: As above (you want D4 wide, very close to 1 bps)
D4-A4: As above

Now, if we were to think in terms of "one-single-key and few intervals" (within one-single-octave) we may perhaps accept those "just" intervals, but really we want all keys and all intervals (no matter which octave) to sound in tune. As a consequence of "just" intervals we would get other intervals that are sensibly far from just, so missing the harmoniousness of the whole.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Too sweet (too slow beating)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, still slow
B3-D#4: Ok (notice that it is much faster than A#3-D4)
C4-E4: Ok (notice that it is sweeter than B3-D#4)
C#4-F4: Fast (much faster than C4-E4)
D4-F#4: Ok (sweeter/slower than C#4-F4)
D#4-G4: Little slow
E4-G#4: Ok...
F4-A4: Too sweet

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Too wide (almost 3 bps)
B3-E4: Little too wide (almost 2 bps)
C4-F4: Ok
C#4-F#4: Slow
D4-G4: Fast
D#4-G#4: Slow
E4-A4: See base

Apparently you have had to raise D#4 very much.

Fifths:

A3-E4: see base
A#3-F4: too just... F4 down, you improve C#4-F4; C4 down, improve C4-E4 (and also E4 needed to go down a bit)
B3-F#4: fast (about 2 bps), F#4 up, improves C#4-F#4 and D4-F#4
C4-G4: Ok, both can go down a bit (remember E4, C4-E4, and F4)
C#4-G#4: Ok, both up a bit, improve A3-C#4 and D#4-G#4
D4-A4: See base

And you would remember that A3 and E4 and D#4 need to go down a bit (in pitch).

From your second last post:

..."The D4-G4 seems very stretch.
D#4-G4 not sure too fast or too slow.
Its rather difficult to hear bit in 4th octave.

Is it possible to use F3-F4 octave?"...

To me, D4-G4 sounds inverted (G4 should go up), and D#4-G4 is too slow. In general, make sure that the five Base-intervals are on the right side. And yes, do experiment other sequences (perhaps of your own too) and the F3-F4 compass, in which case I'd get to F3 as fast as possible, so to avoid piling up approximations.

How are you doing with 6ths, 10ths and 12ths?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 03:47 AM

Before today's correction exercise, I take measure of yesterday's tuning.

I am using Verituner with Average stretch.

A3: +2.3
A#3: +1.3
B3: 1.8
C4: +3
C#4: +0.6
D4: +0.2
D#4: +4.5
E4: +3
F4: +3.5
F#4: +0.3
G4: +3.3
G#4: +4
A4: +1.8

A3-A4 not stretched.
A3(+2.3):E4(+3): The fifth is not narrow enough. Is this interval need narrower than ET fifth?

E4(+3):A4(+1.3), not wide enough

A3(+2.3):D4(+0.2), not wide enough

D4(+0.2):A4(+1.8), not narrow enough

The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense.

Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet.

I only use tenths to tune bass notes. Should I tune the 12ths pure?

Thank you.
Tune for better harmony!
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 05:15 AM

Correction of Yesterday's tuning.

Its far from OK as I heard. I am begin to recognize thirds.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-30-aug-2012-1
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-31-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-31-aug-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-31-aug-2012

This afternoon tune the octaves bass on this temperanment.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 10:25 PM

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote: ..."Its far from OK as I heard. I am begin to recognize thirds."...

You are right, it's not Ok but... it is important that you can realize that yourself. You may listen again to these last recordings and notice some "very different" intervals, related to three notes: C4, D#4 and G4. Try to compare intervals, and try to focus on large, very evident differences caused by those notes. And the M3rd D#4-G4 is not so bad only because both notes are very high (in pitch). Also E4 has gone down too much, in fact A3-E4 is too narrow (about 2 bps). Do not worry if sometime you do not get a satisfactory result, this is how we learn and... sometime we regress as well.

On your second last post:

..."The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

..."Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet."...

We can use M6ths like M3rds, comparing chromatic intervals and (their relative) beat-progressions; I also evaluate - aurally - their "taste", their "tension", whether it sounds "salty" (listen again to B3-D#4) or too "loose" (C4-E4). Start developing an idea of what 6ths can sound like, you can start from A3-F#4... then you will be able to compare A#3-G4, B3-G#4 and C4-A4.

..."I only use tenths to tune bass notes."...

Personally, I use 10ths also going up the scale, the first 10th being A3-C#5: that helps me evaluate the octaves (A#3-A#4 etc...) progressive stretch; A3-C#5 tells me the kind of curve I'm drawing while stretching octaves, until I get to the first 12th, A3-E5. From E5 up (and in general), 12ths are very "imperative" and yet easy to "evaluate". Going down the bass I use octaves, 4ths and 5ths and check with 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

..."Should I tune the 12ths pure?"...

Good question. Is "tuning" the tuning of... one interval? Hmmm... I do not think so. But if you find yourself far away from a pure 12th you may still improve your tuning. Chas 12ths beat (narrow) at a constant and very very slow beat-rate, but we may have good reasons for tuning pure or even wide 12ths, depending on the single piano's condition. Would you not regret having tuned "pure 12ths" if, at the end of your tuning, some 12ths were to sound flat?

As a general rule yes, try to stay very (very) close to pure 12ths.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 08/31/12 11:55 PM

Thank you.

A plentiful content. I am digesting it.

"The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."
I feel its very close to ET. They both have same character: harmony color is same for all twelve keys.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/01/12 07:55 AM

Sixths is are helpful. Compared the progressiveness of sixths help to sort out some mistake.

Tune the whole piano, its un-playable. Tune again from temperament.

This time tune bass first. On top of octave, use 5ths, 10ths, 15ths and 17ths and compound fifths. The mistake in temperament is revealed. Some intervals in wrong side is revealed in this process. Play some chord, its full of bass. Not treble is not tuned yet.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths3-1-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths3-1-sep-2012

Weekend begins.

Have a nice weekend
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/02/12 01:01 AM

Ignore last post(1-Sep-2012).

This Sunday morning I played some chords, find the F chord offensive. Further deep into it, find A3-C4 offensive. Compared with other m3s, it has different character. Finally retuned whole temperament.

I learned use m3s to evaluate temperament this Sunday.

Than you.

Have a nice Sunday.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/02/12 06:30 AM

Today's tuning.

G4 tune down a liitle after record, slow down bit rate of D4-G4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-2-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-2-sep-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/04/12 11:01 AM


Hi Weiyan,

Very good job, you have sensibly improved all intervals. I'm glad you can also use m3rds and M6ths, as well as larger intervals... as you say they reveal any approximation and help perfecting both the "temperament" and the overall tuning-form.

Let's try to further refine your last tuning, by listening again to some intervals that can be improved.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, now we hear some "movement"
A3-E4: Ok...
E4-A4: Ok, a little too wide...
A3-D4: Ok, it can be wider, closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: Ok...careful, it may be inverted

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Better than before, a bit slow
A#3-D4: Nice progression, although a bit slow
B3-D#4: Nice
C4-E4: slow, compare with previous… ready to check C4 (too high)
C#4-F4: Ok
D4-F#4: Ok
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok...

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Fast (about 2 bps, check A#3-F4... check C4-F4... it's "just", down C4
B3-E4: Ok
C4-F4: Just, no beating...
C#4-F#4: Fast, check C#4-G#4... Ok, check G#4 (D#4-G#4)... too just, raise (a bit) C#4, G#4, A#3, F4

D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4 but check F#4 (as a fifth and third), B3-F#4 is a bit too narrow, so raise also F#4

D#4-G#4: too just, compare (also in general) and make it similar to neighbors
E4-A4: little to wide, raise E4 just a little bit

And you would remember A#3... up a bit.

Well done, Weiyan, did you correct "aurally" or VT's?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/05/12 07:43 AM

Alfredo,

I use ETD tune to +/- 5 cents, then correct aurally.
Edit:
Last tuning had a lot correction during tuning bass octaves.
END OF EDIT


Yesterday tuned the piano with ETD, so no correction can do .

Today I raise the frequency to 442HZ and tuned pure aural. Tuned F3-B7, for some mistake reflected in octaves, especially some interval in wrong direction. Take five hours to tune two octaves.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-5-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-sep-2012

Thanks.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 12:03 AM


Hi Weiyan,

You have done very well!

The base:

A3-A4: Good (*)
A3-E4: Ok (*)
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok (*)
D4-A4: Ok

(*): While I'm tuning the base, I consider "normal" having to correct A3, E4 and D4. In the case above, A3 can go down a bit (with a Forte blow), so improving your base.

Fine corrections:

A3-A4: Good (*), a little bit shy, it can be a little bit wider
A3-E4: Ok (*), if A3 goes (a little bit) down, E4 can also go down a bit
E4-A4: Ok, you want this 4th a little faster
A3-D4: Ok (*), make it closer to 1 bps, if anything... abundant, you may adjust it later with a Forte
D4-A4: Ok

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Ok, sweet/slow
A#3-D4: slower than A3-C#4
B3-D#4: Ok
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Ok...
D4-F#4: Ok...
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fourths:

A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: A little fast
B3-E4: Too just
C4-F4: Too just, check A#3-F4... too narrow, raise F4 and C#4
C#4-F#4: Nice, check B3-F#4... too narrow, raise F#4
D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4, improves A#3-D4
D#4-G#4: Ok, slower than previous, raise G#4, this also improves C#4-G#4
E4-A4: Slow.

Try (in your time, no rush) to control fourths progression, take A3-D4 and E4-A4 as a reference and put all the other 4ths (bps) in between, progressively.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 07:10 AM

Alfredo,

Thank you.

I am practicing left hand tuning. I can move a hair little now.

Readjusted yesterday's tuning. Used about three hours to tune F3-B4.

I think in coming days will focus on octaves. Still not know how to use double octave + 7ths.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-sep-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 03:28 PM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote: …"I am practicing left hand tuning."…

May I ask you why?

…"I can move a hair little now."…

This is good, as we are getting into fine "hair" corrections, good for truly progressive beating and singing unisons.

…"Readjusted yesterday's tuning."…

Very good job indeed.

…"Used about three hours to tune F3-B4."…

Is that right, F3-B4 in about three hours? Hmmm… that would be far too long. Let me know if you can sing the note you tune… we might be able to sort out a faster procedure.

…"I think in coming days will focus on octaves."…

That's good. Let me know if you want to spend some time on your last recordings (6 Sept.).

…"Still not know how to use double octave + 7ths."…

That's quite straightforward: play (for example) C2-A#4, it beats very very fast… so fast that we cannot distinguish beats… go - chromatically - down the bass (slowly) until you can actually hear/distinguish beats (expect fast beating) and use them to order their progression. Slow-bps = bottom note is high in pitch; Fast-bps = bottom note is low. As mentioned, do not trust one single interval, use all intervals and beats that can help you to manage and "position" the bass pitch, use fifths, octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths, 17ths and, not last, use your sense of "in tune".
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 04:39 PM

Thank you.

Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little.

The slow speed is due to low proficiency level. Take time to check interval directions. Evaluate tuning by playing chords in all keys. Then diagnostic for inconsistent colors and correction.

Although I think practice can improve speed, still looking for faster procedure.

For F3 - G#3 and A#4 - B4, I keep the thirds beat rate progressiveness.

After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/06/12 06:46 PM


..."Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little."...

Thank you, Weiyan, for answering my question.

..."After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?"...

If I may suggest, continue the 6-Sept's tuning, explore/relate high register 12ths, 15ths and 17ths with today's octaves. Alternatively, follow your inspiration. ;-)

Where have those lovely birds gone?

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/07/12 01:54 PM

In summer, a lot typhoon and always rainy. The birds are gone.

That's tune the high register similar to base? Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions.

Always thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/07/12 05:36 PM


Hi Weiyan,

..."That's tune the high register similar to base?"...

Yes, it is similar to the base, mainly proceed with three Slow-Beating-Intervals intervals and further check (and perfect) with Fast-BI's. I use 8's, 12ths and 15ths... and check with 17ths. C7-C8... also check fifths, I like to hear them (apparently) pure.

..."Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions."...

You're welcome. Have a nice w.e.,

Alfredo
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/10/12 11:02 AM

Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.

First part is 10th chromatic down.

Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.

Is tuning this way?

Thank you;
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 04:26 AM

Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination.
Learn to trust my ear.

This can have faster tuning.

Tuning F3-B4 within 10 minutes.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 06:17 AM

Hi Weiyan,

In order to reply properly I have to wait until tonight. For the time being, have a nice afternoon.

Alfredo
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 09:47 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

No hurry.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/11/12 10:08 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see what follows:

..."Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.
First part is 10th chromatic down.
Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.
Is tuning this way?"...

Yes, tuning requires going through chromatic intervals, interrelating (getting the most correct (univocal/coherent) relation amongst) all intervals and their chromatic beat-curves, all across the keyboard. This (only) can really shape a sound-whole.

If possible, listen to the 10ths again, you'll notice that the 10th on A4 is much slower than the previous (F#3-A#4, this beats fast) and equal beating with the next down (E3-G#4). Now, in this sequence (going down the bass)... beats must slow down progressively. See, in the case above, we have the first 10th very fast and the following two 10ths are much slower (and equal beating). Please, let me know if you can notice that.

The other intervals:

5th, D#-A#, make it closer to just
8th, as above
10th, Ok... tense
15th, 17th, Ok. Please note, in this range 15ths (on their own) are not much significant, as our ear is pretty "generous" here.

On your latest samples:

..."Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012

The base:

A3-A4: Ok...
A3-E4: make it narrow-closer to just
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: this beats about 2 bps, make it (wide) closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: as above, too much "movement", make it almost just (you want to invert the fifths beat rate progression)

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Too slow, about 3 bps, check C#4-F#4… very "salty" (very tense), raise C#4
A#3-D4: Ok, much faster than previous, let me know if you can hear that (we will correct your next tuning)
B3-D#4: Slower than previous, around 6 bps, more typical of E3-G#3
C4-E4: Ok, a bit too tense
C#4-F4: Ok, as above
D4-F#4: Ok, sweeter than previous (try to "feel" this difference)
D#4-G4: Ok, it gets less tense, make it go the other way around
E4-G#4: As above
F4-A4: Ok

..."Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination."...

Yes, it is "hands and ear (and breath/rythm)" coordination. Strangely enough, it may be more difficult when you go down in pitch. In general, make (feel) the pin rotate counter-clock and get to "just/narrow"; play a "forte" (for spreading the string's tension); now that your pitch is flat, (step one) get close to "just" only under pin torque/bending; then make the pin rotate (wide-clock-wise (*)) at its bottom (you may clearly feel that), change the hammer's position (on vertical at 12/11) and counter-charge the pin by exerting some steady/continuous force onto the hammer, towards the string and try to get to the "spot" with one more "forte".

(*) How much should the pin rotate... depends on the pin's elasticity, which you can evaluate in step one. In time, step-one will allow your brain to calculate the exact pin-rotation needed in order to get the wanted-pitch-as-the-result of pin-counter-charge.

..."Learn to trust my ear."...

You are right, and we can use two ears, one for intonation (meaning color, taste, feelings etc...) and one for beats rhythm, the latter being absolutely real and shareable.

..."This can have faster tuning."...

Yes, Weiyan, I agree. Can you get other pianos to work on?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/12/12 02:29 AM

Thank you.
I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/12/12 03:02 AM

This morning rasied about 6 cents. Pure aural except A4.

Finished in a few minutes.

D4 and G4 raised a little bit after recording.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-sep-2012

The next stage will be the most difficul: getting many pianos to practice.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/13/12 05:08 AM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

…"I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed."…

That's good. Today we can compare also the two latest samples:

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, it moves a bit much
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok, slow
D4-A4: Ok, moves a bit much, is A4 inverted?

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Fast
A#3-D4: Slow, check A#3-D#4… Ok, check A#3-F4… too narrow (about 3 bps), perhaps raise D#4 and F4 (and D4? and A4?)
B3-D#4: slow (about 6 bps), check B3-E4… Ok, confirm D#4 up
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Slow (compare with C4-E4), confirm F4 up
D4-F#4: Ok, pretty tense, confirm D4 up
D#4-G4: Slow, sweet (compare with D4-F#4), check C4-G4… too narrow (about 3 bps?), raise G4
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok, sweeter than previous

Get ready, next time you may try this kind of self-correction.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/13/12 07:16 PM


Hi Weiyan (good morning!),

I can now compensate for the relative little time I had this morning. I was saying "...we can compare also the two latest samples"...; in fact, if we listen to the second last "Thirds" sample,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012

and the last one,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012

it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.

Perhaps less evident is the (small) difference (between those two samples), when it comes to C4-E4. If you like, you can exercise your ears ((intonation/flavor) and (beat/speed)) by re-listening and comparing both a few times. At some stage we'll have to be able to manage that.

One more thing... once you refine your middle-octave, expand every time with octaves and check every time 10ths, 12ths and 15ths (going treble) and 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 10ths (towards the bass). So doing you may better balance your ear-training and the overall straining of the pins.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/15/12 12:30 AM

Quote
it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.


It always perceive too slow BR is too fast to hear the BR. Have to learn to trust intonation.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/15/12 02:51 AM

Today's practice. Emphasis on listening intonation on top of beat rates.

Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-sep-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/15/12 08:29 PM


Hi Weiyan,

This time, let's listen to 4ths and 5ths in the (flow-chart) sequence order, we will try to spot over-beating intervals and relate them to the thirds progression.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok
A3-E4: Ok, is it inverted? Always get sure...
E4-A4: Too close to just, is E4 inverted?
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a bit much...
D4-A4: Ok, always make sure A4 and D4 are not inverted

A3-E4: Ok...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4...)
B3-F#4: Ok, right now check your 1st third D4-F#4... it is very tense due to B3 (too high in pitch)
F#4-C#4: Too just (always compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4 (*)), check your 2nd third A3-C#4... it is very tense due to C#4 (too high)
C#4-G#4: Too much beating, check your third E4-G#4... it is sour, make sure C#4-G#4 is not inverted
G#4-D#4: Too much beating (compare E4-A4), check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? Their progression is inverted, in fact A3-C#4 is much faster.

Here you could go back and check/see what is wrong... In fact, you want B3-D#4 faster than A3-C#4.

D#4-A#3: Too much beating, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4... A#3-D4 is the slowest (no good)
A#3-F4: As above, check your third C#4-F4... very sweet (about 5 bps)
From D4 tune G4: Too much beating (compare adjacent fourths)
G4-C4: Too much beating, is this inverted?

"Join" C4 with F4: Too wide (about 7 bps)

(*): A3-D4, C#4-F#4 and E4-A4 must be in progression

It happened that the initial fourths B3-E4 and C#4-F#4 (too just) have pushed C#4 very high; the next D#4-G#4 and A#3-D#4 (too wide) have somehow balanced that.

..."Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change."...

Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/17/12 02:51 AM

Thank you.

I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR.

I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths. Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct.

Following is sequence I remembered.
A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

Quote
Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?


A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/17/12 10:16 PM


Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

..."I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR."...

Never mind, now consider that all intervals are related to each other, in time you'll be able to mentally draw a "beat-map" and administrate those relationships in the strictest way.

..."I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths."...

Don't worry, you are not alone... bi-chords (only two notes played together/simultaneously) have a fairly large leeway, meaning that our ear may accept, say, F3-A3 at a beat-rate from (anything close to) zero to perhaps 10 bps. It is only when we (and orchestras and chorus) play complex chords that intervals need to be tempered into a (complex) whole.

..."Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct."...

I too need to confirm that, and I do that with my tuning hammer: I move it either drop-wise (anti-clock) or raise-wise (clock-wise) and see if the beat gets faster or slower. For example, if a fifth is on the narrow side, ACW will produce some (more) beating, CW will make it still.

..."Following is sequence I remembered.

A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

- . - . - . -

Ok, perhaps you can look at it this way:

A4 -> A3 // A3-> E4 -> A4 // -> A3 -> D4 -> A4

The above five intervals represent the basic relation (and reference), even if you need to further correct them subsequently (*).

E4->B3, cannot be slower than A3-D4, not faster than E4-A4
B3->F#4, cannot be narrower than A3-E4, not "juster" than D4-A4
F#4->C#4, wider than A3-D4, less wide than E4-A4
C#4->G#4, very very close to D4-A4, a "hair" narrower
G#4->D#4, very very close to E4-A4, a hair slower
D#4->A#3, very very close to A3-D4, a hair wider
A#3->F4, very very close to A3-E4, a hair less-narrow

Now tune G4 from D4, very very close to G#4->D#4, a hair slower;

and tune C4 from G4, in-between B3-F#4 and C#4-G#4. Check C4-F4, possibly in-between B3-E4 and C#4-F#4.

(*): Tuning is dynamic, so keep memory of any (due) approximation, actually go "by" approximations and solve them along the way. As for "thirds relations", refer to our previous post.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

You wrote:

A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

- . - . - . -

This is what I hear:

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-F#4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

Good for you, your estimations were mostly correct.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/18/12 06:24 AM

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Following the tuning sequence to check thirds beat rates seems easier to correct tuning. Eg., if A3-C#4 not in question, then check C#4-G#4.

When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction. Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm directon.

I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color.

Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-sep-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/18/12 02:06 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Good job indeed. Although thirds are not all precisely progressive, you have managed to make some adjacent thirds very similar, which is good.

Let's listen together.

The base:

A3-A4: Nice, it may be inverted
A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-A4: It moves too little. Two main possibilities: first p., E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow; second p., E4 wide! and A3-A4 correct
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a lot (about 2 bps, make it about 1 bps)...
D4-A4: It moves too much (almost 3 bps), it should sound almost still. Perhaps (first p.) E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow

Following the (Flow-chart) sequence order:

A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4)
B3-F#4: It beats too much (about 2 bps, it should beat less than A3-E4, more than D4-A4), right now check your 1st third D4-F#4… it is nice/sweet, it must be nice/tense... a "hair" difference that you will mature in time. Here also check your first 6th A3-F#4, you want to develop the taste.

F#4-C#4: Too just (compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4), check your 2nd third A3-C#4 and compare with D4-F#4… D4-F#4 is sweeter, not in progression, so I would quickly go back and improve previous intervals.

C#4-G#4: Nice, still, check again adjacent D4-A4... very different, I would go back and improve the base;

G#4-D#4: Too much beating, check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? B3-D#4 is sweeter, their progression is inverted;

D#4-A#3: Quite still, check adjacent A3-D4... very different, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4...

A#3-F4: Nice, check your third C#4-F4… Ok/slow (about 7 bps), compare with D4-F#4, this is sweeter/slower;

From D4 tune G4: Ok, compare the other (adjacent) fourths and evaluate their progression;
G4-C4: compare with (and check) the other fifths, C4-F4 (too still) and adjacent fourths, C4-E3 (too tense) and adjacent thirds.

You wrote:

..."When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction."...

That's good.

..."Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm direction."...

Ok, when tuning the base, make sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are wide, make A3-E4 very slowly (narrow) beating and E4-A4 sensibly faster than A3-D4.

..."I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color."...

I too like doing that and find it useful.

..."Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production."...

That's ok, try not to hesitate... Tune your note, compare quickly with other available intervals, do not aim at "static" perfection, get close from above and ready to improve all (improvable) points you could memorize.

Buona serata, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/12 07:55 AM

Mute the piano and listen again. I can hear the A3-D4 beating to fast indeed. And most intervals I can hear. It same as what I heard during last tuning session. It obviously I don't trust my ear enough.

Will tune again tomorrow and further investigate to A3-A4 to confirm if its too wide or too narrow.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/12 03:36 AM

HI,

Not easy to touch up last tuning. All notes except A4 had moved.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-sep-2012

Thank you.
Regards
Weiyan

Edit:

A#3-F4 beats too fast,
B3-F#4 too fast,

B3-E4 too slow,
C#4-G#4 too fast
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/12 04:07 AM

Hi,

Some correction made.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-20-sep-2012

Thak you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/12 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
HI,

Not easy to touch up last tuning. All notes except A4 had moved.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-sep-2012

Thank you.
Regards
Weiyan

Edit:

A#3-F4 beats too fast,
B3-F#4 too fast,

B3-E4 too slow,
C#4-G#4 too fast


Hi Weiyan,

I'm travelling around for work...

About your self-revision (above):

A#3-F4 beats too fast,.......Correct
B3-F#4 too fast,.......Correct

B3-E4 too slow,.......Correct
C#4-G#4 too fast,.......Non correct

If you like, please revise and comment your (recorded) thirds, in terms of "slow/slower than...", "fast/faster than...".

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

I'll be back soon.

Buon pomeriggio, a.c.
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/12 05:48 AM

Thank you.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/12 08:53 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's listen together to the last recorded thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Too slow (about 3 bps)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, too sweet (about 6 bps)
B3-D#4: slower than previous
C4-E4: Very very tense, too fast
C#4-F4: sweet, too slow (about 4 bps)
D4-F#4: Ok, sour, fast
D#4-G4: Sweet, slower than previous
E4-G#4: Very slow and slower than previous
F4-A4: Very tense

Perhaps you can compare the 20-sep-thirds with the 15-sep-thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-G4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

If you like, you may let me know what you hear. In particular, you may compare and notice how A3-C#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4 and F4-A4 have changed, thinking about color/tension/taste/texture.

Regards, a.c.

Edit: Typo correction... D#4-F#4 (m3) into D#4-G4 (M3).
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/12 03:04 AM

Before review your last post, I tune it again.

The octave I use M3-M10 / m3-M6 test to make sure its at wide side.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-27-sep-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-27-sep-2012
C4-G4, C#4-G#4 sounds strange.

The intuition on beats and intonation seems build up gradually.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/12 08:02 AM


Hi Weiyan,

A brief comment before I go out for work.

Try to relate beats with the movement of your tuning hammer: in other words, while turning the hammer... do not stop the sound, keep your fingers down onto the keyboard and listen to the interval, how the interval (and the beat-rate) can change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

In general, stay closer to "just", try to avoid fourths beating like A#3-D#4 (very very fast! Inverted?), C4-F4 (fast, about 3 bps) and D#4-G#4 (very fast, about 6 bps).

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

Yes, your comment is correct; you may now compare A3-C#4, C4-E4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4... let me know what you hear.

Have a nice afternoon, a.c.

Edit: added F4-A4, which may be compared with those other thirds.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/12 01:19 AM

Good morning Alfredo,

Just listened directly to the piano.

A#3-D#4, Af-F4, D#4-G#4 are ultra fast.

A#3-C4 very slow.
B3-D#4 very fast compare to last interval.
C4-E4 same are little bit slower than previous last interval.

Its easier to hear after rest.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/12 12:06 PM

Hi,

Today I practice slow move the hammer to listen to beat rate change. Not easy to keep the steady slow move. Only approach correct pitch from upper side. If over shoot, raise and tune again.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/12 03:45 AM

Today I tuned with slow pull. Hearing the br change while pushing the hammer. After recording, tried some interval with LH, its easier than RH. Law of gravity works.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.


Happy Mid-Autumn(Moon Cake) Festival
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/12 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Today I tuned with slow pull. Hearing the br change while pushing the hammer. After recording, tried some interval with LH, its easier than RH. Law of gravity works.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.


Happy Mid-Autumn(Moon Cake) Festival
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

I'm very glad because you've done a nice job! Your thirds progression is much smoother, you are refining your tunings indeed.

Insist on making sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are on the right side and now expand your mid-octave all across your piano. A wider intervals beat-map will help you refine also the original octave.

Today I'm visiting my father...

Thank you for your wishes, have a nice sunday,

Alfredo
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/12 03:51 PM

Hi Alfredo,

My ear open suddenly, and hammer skill improved. I can hear the purity of fifth and fourth. Today I raised 2hz and tuned again, I can refined it to an acceptable thirds progression.

Tune the fifths near pure, fourths begins from 1bps then progress to fast BR. Finally refine A4. The octave is not as wide as I think.

What's next should be more practice.

Also thanks to Kamin(Issac)'s encouragement.

Best wishes to you and your family!
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/12 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan

My ear open suddenly, and hammer skill improved. I can hear the purity of fifth and fourth. Today I raised 2hz and tuned again, I can refined it to an acceptable thirds progression.

Tune the fifths near pure, fourths begins from 1bps then progress to fast BR. Finally refine A4. The octave is not as wide as I think.

What's next should be more practice.

Also thanks to Kamin(Issac)'s encouragement.

Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

I know exactly what you mean, that happened to me too and I believe that our skills "grow" by going through various degrees (steps?) of awareness.

Let me know when you are ready to revise your last post, by listening more attentively to your last recording.

Regards, a.c.
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/12 07:53 AM

Good afternoon.

The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps.

A3-D4 OK, 1bps
D4-A4 > < 2bps

The A3-A4 too narrow.

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK
A#3-D4 little slower
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression.

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth
C4-F4 too slow
C#4F#4 Slow
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok
E4-A4 1bps, too slow

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3-F4, C4-F4
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough.

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning.
A3-E4: 0.5bps
E4A4: 2bps
A3-D4: 1bps,
D4-A4: near pure

Thank you.
Weiyan



Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/12 01:25 PM

Tuned again.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/06/12 12:23 AM

Good Morning:

This Saturday morning, adjusted F4 and G4 to make A#3-F4, C4-G4 purer.

Listen direct to the piano, A3-E4 too noisy. May due to instability. Corrected.

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/06/12 07:25 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I hope you could enjoy the Mid Autumn festival and National Day. How is that celebrated in Honk Kong?



Right now I could only listen to these samples, it seems to me that you have progressed consistently. Hope I can soon be more precise.

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Good afternoon.

The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps.

A3-D4 OK, 1bps
D4-A4 > < 2bps

The A3-A4 too narrow.

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK
A#3-D4 little slower
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression.

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth
C4-F4 too slow
C#4F#4 Slow
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok
E4-A4 1bps, too slow

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3-F4, C4-F4
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough.

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning.
A3-E4: 0.5bps
E4A4: 2bps
A3-D4: 1bps,
D4-A4: near pure

Thank you.
Weiyan


Soon I am going to check the above too. I am very glad you could produce that effort.

Have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/07/12 02:07 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Below is your own analysis, my comment follows the line in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.

..."The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.(yes, perhaps 2 bps)
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps. (yes, perhaps even slower)
A3-D4 OK, 1bps (correct)(Edit(*))
D4-A4 > < 2bps (hmmm... much slower?)

The A3-A4 too narrow. (yes)

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK (yes, very little slow)
A#3-D4 little slower (yes)
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower (I'm not sure, then I would simply check 4ths and 5th on B3 and D#4)
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow (yes)
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression. (yes, but D#4-G4 is sweeter than the others)

For the time being I have to stop here...

Regards, a.c.

(*)Edit: In general, it is better to stay a "hair" higher, in consideration of the pitch tendency (drop). Many times, you will be able to "hair" correct any interval by playing a Forte. We want to anticipate "hysteresis".
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/08/12 03:38 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Second half, my comment (in brackets) follows yours:

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast (I hear less than 1 bps)
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
C4-F4 too slow (?)
C#4F#4 Slow ((?) - perhaps this is correct, play the interval a little longer)
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast (yes)
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok (slow)
E4-A4 1bps, too slow (yes)

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3 (you meant C#4)-F4, C4-F4 (or leave C4-F4(?) and drop C#4(?)...check C#4-G#4...)
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4 (yes)
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4 (hmmm... check C4-G4...)
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough. (yes)

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning. (yes, fine and jet temporary)
A3-E4: 0.5bps (even slower)
E4A4: 2bps (even faster)
A3-D4: 1bps,(or a "hair" higher)
D4-A4: near pure (yes!)

- . - . - . -

Well, you have done a very good job!

Next:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Regards, a.c.


Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/09/12 02:45 AM

Thank you.

Will hear the sound file again and review last tuning.

The National day is dark. 38 death in a ship crashing. They are after sea food meal on the way to see firework.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/09/12 03:00 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I have found an article in the web, with other details. I'm very sorry for that.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/10/12 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

I have found an article in the web, with other details. I'm very sorry for that.


Should you send me a link?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/10/12 03:46 PM


Sure, let me know if you could get these articles:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/02/world/asia/hong-kong-ferry-crash/index.html

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7966959.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444223104578035831636313780.html

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/11/12 07:26 AM

Thank you. I got the links.



Very bad tuning, besides the thirds have some progression.

The base:
A3-E4: beats faster than 1bps, too fast
E4-A4: beats ok
A3-D4: Ok
D4-A4: 1bps, too fast

A3-A4 too narrow

Thirds:
A3-C#4:Ok
A#3-D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: faster than previous interval, may ok.
C#4-F4: has progression, may ok
D4-F#4: slower than previous interval
D#4-G4, E4-G$4, F4-A4: has progression, has a feeling of too tense.

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
The rest: seems progressive, but the feeling is too tense.

Fifths:
A3-E4: OK.
The rest: has progression. This is not CHAS. The feeling is very tense. The beat rate may be ET fifth, the feeling is not fifth.

Correction:
Better to tune again from ground.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/11/12 08:42 PM

You are welcome, Weiyan.

My comment (in brackets):

The base:
A3-E4: beats faster than 1bps, too fast (yes)
E4-A4: beats ok (yes)
A3-D4: Ok (not wide enough)
D4-A4: 1bps, too fast (re-listen, D4-A4 is Ok, both D4 and A4 want to go up)

A3-A4 too narrow (yes)

Thirds:
A3-C#4:Ok (yes, a hair slow/sweet, more normal for G3-B3)
A#3-D4: OK (slow, slower than A3-C#4)
B3-D#4: slow (not bad at all)
C4-E4: faster than previous interval, may ok. (slower/sweeter than previous, slow)
C#4-F4: has progression, may ok (yes)
D4-F#4: slower than previous interval (yes)
D#4-G4, E4-G$4, F4-A4: has progression, has a feeling of too tense. (D#4-G4,(sweeter than previous) E4-G$4,(tense) F4-A4 (sweet))

- . - . - . -

You say "too tense"... In general, let's consider that thirds and all F-BI's get very tense (progressively, (going up the scale)), and that is how "variable tensions" can neatly translate into "variety of color"; F-BI's get "too tense", that is why (going up the scale) we check wider intervals (F-BI's), like 6ths, 10th and 17ths, easier to "read".

At this stage, do not ask yourself to order D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4. Instead, start comparing 6ths, first A3-F#4 and B3-G#4, and then the other two. Use "tone-distance" also for comparing very fast thirds, it gets easier ((?)let me know).

- . - . - . -

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (not wide enough)
The rest: seems progressive, but the feeling is too tense. (C4-F4 and C#4-F#4 sound Ok, play (and rec) a little longer; D#4-G#4 beats much faster, I'm sure you can hear that)

Fifths:
A3-E4: OK. (too fast, make it calmer)
The rest: has progression. This is not CHAS. The feeling is very tense. The beat rate may be ET fifth, the feeling is not fifth. (tune A3-E4 closer to "Just", avoid beating like C4-G4, tune D4-A4 narrow-just)

- . - . - . -

I need to say that Chas (s=1) works as a reference only; your tunings will stand for yourself and you are doing very well.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 06:38 AM

Thank you.

Today has a net term "tone distance", what's this?

Tuning better, like playing piano and writing calligraphy is for personal enjoyment. Not all piano can tune to the precision required by CHAS.

Tune again today.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan

Today has a net term "tone distance", what's this?



Example: The "distance" between E and F is a semitone; the "distance" between C and D is called a "tone"; B-C, C-C#, C#-D, D-D#, D#-E, E-F, F-F# etc., are semitone distances; B-C#, C#-D#, D#-F etc. are tone distances.

Two "tone-distance" thirds example: C-E, D-F#.

Enjoy your tuning, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/12 01:39 PM

Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?

Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".

Kees
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 09:11 AM

This is second pass of previous tuning. Move a tiny hair if possible. I play the note while pushing up or pulling down the. In most case I can hear crack sound and feel the pin move. Not sure if this technique is stable. Confirm the direction of interval by slightly pushing up twisting the pin, then set back.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
B3-D#4 sounds strange
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
D#4-G#4 sounds strange
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
A#3-F4 seems very fast.

The perception of beat rate not the same between recording and the piano. Sometimes there are many "layers" of beats. Should I listen to the fundamental only?

Happy weekend.
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
[quote=Weiyan]Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


Hi Weiyan,

My comment (in brackets) follows your review:

The base:
A3-E4: OK (hmmm... lots of movement)
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed. (yes)

A3-D4: Little bit slow (yes)
D4-A4: OK (tune it closer to just)
A3-A4: too wide (I'm not sure, inverted?)

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK (a bit sweet)
A#3-D4: Ok (yes)
B3-D#4: slow (yes)
C4-E4: Ok (very very tense)
C#4-F4: ok (sweet)
D4-F#4: slow (very tense)
D#4-G4: slow (Ok)
E4-G#4: slow (yes)
F4-A4: ok. (a bit sweet)

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow (yes)
A#3-D#4: fast (yes)
B3-E4: OK (a hair slow)
C4-F4: fast (yes)
C#4-F#4: little fast (yes)
D4-G4: Slow (yes)
D#4-G#4: slow (yes)
E4-A4: seems ok (slow, tune it around 2-3 bps, double check the base-intervals side)

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK (lots of movement)
A#3-F4: OK (yes)
B3-F#4: fast (yes)
C4-G4: fast (yes, very fast)
C#4-G#4: ok (yes, a hair too just)
D4-A4: wavy, too fast (yes)


Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is second pass of previous tuning. Move a tiny hair if possible. I play the note while pushing up or pulling down the. In most case I can hear crack sound and feel the pin move. Not sure if this technique is stable. Confirm the direction of interval by slightly pushing up twisting the pin, then set back.


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-13-oct-2012

A3-A4: inverted?
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Too just
A3-D4: Little bit slow
D4-A4: Tune it closer to just

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
..."B3-D#4 sounds strange"...

Very good, you have improved your previous tuning, nothing wrong with B3-D#4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
..."D#4-G#4 sounds strange"...

D#4-G#4 is too just, as for the rest I'll wait for your review.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
..."A#3-F4 seems very fast."...

Very good, A#3-F4 is a bit too narrow, check C#4-F4... sweet. If you like, review this too.

..."The perception of beat rate not the same between recording and the piano."...

Yes, good training.

..."Sometimes there are many "layers" of beats."...

True.

..."Should I listen to the fundamental only?"...

In general, follow the main beat, the louder, the most evident: so doing, depending on the interval, you'll be listening to the matchings of the smallest partials.

To All, have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/12 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Today's tuning.

It seems worse than previous tuning because this is first pass. I am learning to trust my ear and hand.

Will review it tomorrow.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-oct-2012


The base:
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: Seems beats ok, seems too just. The interval may reversed.

A3-D4: Little bit slower
D4-A4: OK
A3-A4: too wide

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Ok
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: ok
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: slow
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4: ok.

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow
A#3-D#4: fast
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: fast
C#4-F#4: little fast
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: seems ok

Fifths:
A3-E4; OK
A#3-F4: OK
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: wavy, too fast

Follow the tuning sequence fine tune it with respect to the wrong intervals.

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?

Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".

Kees


Although I am interested in following Weiyan's progress with aural tuning, I agree with DoelKees about email contact being more appropriate for this kind of detail. Weiyan, please inform us of your general progress from time to time.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Although I am interested in following Weiyan's progress with aural tuning, I agree with DoelKees about email contact being more appropriate for this kind of detail. Weiyan, please inform us of your general progress from time to time.

Thanks for the support.

To get M3's to be progressive has nothing to do with CHAS, even if CHAS existed (which I argue does not).

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.

Kees
Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 02:47 PM



Originally Posted by DoelKees

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?
Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".
Kees


Originally Posted by DoelKees

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.
Kees


Alfredo and Weiyan are entitled to communicate in this thread however and whenever they like just as anyone else is entitled to ignore the thread if they dislike the content.
No member of this forum is forcing anyone else to endure reading anything at all. If you are of the opinion this thread 100% spam why are you commenting here? Most people I know ignore or delete spam. They do not return repeatedly to read more.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/14/12 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos


Originally Posted by DoelKees

Perhaps email would be more appropriate for this conversation?
Only purpose I see to dump this interarction here is to get hits on the keyword "CHAS".
Kees


Originally Posted by DoelKees

I consider this thread to be 100% SPAM.
Kees


Alfredo and Weiyan are entitled to communicate in this thread however and whenever they like just as anyone else is entitled to ignore the thread if they dislike the content.
No member of this forum is forcing anyone else to endure reading anything at all. If you are of the opinion this thread 100% spam why are you commenting here? Most people I know ignore or delete spam. They do not return repeatedly to read more.

Quit stalking me, Silverwood.

Kees
Posted By: Chris Storch

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 12:26 AM

It's really pretty easy...

Click on the user's name...
Click on "View Profile"..
When their profile comes up, there are four options above their profile information...
Click on "Ignore this User"

I've been CHAS - free ever since!

Do it. It's very empowering.

Chris S.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Storch
It's really pretty easy...

Click on the user's name...
Click on "View Profile"..
When their profile comes up, there are four options above their profile information...
Click on "Ignore this User"

I've been CHAS - free ever since!

Do it. It's very empowering.

Chris S.

Thanks for the suggestion. Problem is that I am still interested in CHAS discussions, which is why I follow this thread.

All I see here is what should be private emails between a student and his teacher, covering very basic things like hearing beats. It has nothing whatsoever to do with CHAS.

If it's really of interest to anyone else they should make a special "teaching" thread.

Alfredo had a habit of taking posts from other threads and replying to them in some CHAS thread. I believe this is done to
create the impression CHAS is an active topic of discussion. I think the recent content of this tread is a manifestation of the same practice.

Kees
Posted By: Forrest Halford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 01:45 AM

This from a rank beginner.

Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?

They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.

This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.

I do appreciate this thread.

Forrest

Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by woodog
This from a rank beginner.

Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?

They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.

This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.

I do appreciate this thread.

Forrest


Great. Put it in a thread without a misleading title.

Kees
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 03:29 AM


I am sorry for making some members not happy.

In my understanding, talking about practical method is the original intention of this thread. Its state on the first post.

I began practice this tuning method and keeping on nearly daily post some months ago, no one told me my posts are spam.

Tuning thirds progressive is not the only objective of C.HA.S. In C.HA.S, thirds and fourths are progressive, fifths are regressive to near pure. Its near Pythagorean tuning. This is an novice understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 04:38 AM

Quote

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012
..."B3-D#4 sounds strange"...

Very good, you have improved your previous tuning, nothing wrong with B3-D#4.


A3-C#4 OK,
A#3-D4: slow
B3-D#4: OK
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F3: slow
D4-F#4 OK
D#4-G4: OK
G4-G#4 slow, near pure
F4-A4 slow

A3-A4 may too narrow.

Quote

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012
..."D#4-G#4 sounds strange"...

D#4-G#4 is too just, as for the rest I'll wait for your review.


A3-D4 ok.
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast.

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow.
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer.

Quote

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012
..."A#3-F4 seems very fast."...

Very good, A#3-F4 is a bit too narrow, check C#4-F4... sweet. If you like, review this too.


A3-E4 OK
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third
B3-E4: same as above
C4-G4: near pure, too just
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow
D4-A4: OK, but reversed.

Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 07:10 AM

Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.
Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/15/12 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by woodog

This from a rank beginner.
Do you realize how wonderful it is for the novice to have daily lessons on hearing intervals, keeping track of subtle differences?
They sure don't post the like over on the pianist or piano corners of the forum.
This is the place I come for that, and it's extremely valuable for me to hear these things... ear training, a lesson a day.
I do appreciate this thread.
Forrest


There is no reason to justify why you are here Forrest. Just continue to learn in the way that you wish to, by reading here and comparing your work. I am sure there are others doing the same but remain silent.

Originally Posted by Weiyan

I am sorry for making some members not happy.
In my understanding, talking about practical method is the original intention of this thread. Its state on the first post.
I began practice this tuning method and keeping on nearly daily post some months ago, no one told me my posts are spam.
Tuning thirds progressive is not the only objective of C.HA.S. In C.HA.S, thirds and fourths are progressive, fifths are regressive to near pure. Its near Pythagorean tuning. This is an novice understanding. Correct me if I am wrong.


It is not necessary for you to apologize to anyone for your postings Weiyan. Just ignore the postings from the self-anointed moderators of the world who have nothing constructive to offer.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/17/12 09:13 AM


Thanks for your clearity, Dan.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your own review, my comment in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012

A3-C#4: OK, (yes, it sounds Ok but it is sweet, more tipical for a lower third)
A#3-D4: slow (faster/better than previous)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: Slow (Ok)
C#4-F4: slow (slow/sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4 OK (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes)
G4-G#4 slow, near pure (check, it's only sweeter than previous)
F4-A4 slow (yes)

A3-A4 may too narrow. (yes)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012

A3-D4 ok. (slow, too close to just)
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast. (not progressive, A#3-D#4 is much too fast)

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow. (fast)
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer. (yes, too slow, also E4-A4)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012

A3-E4 OK (yes, very nice)
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third (simply a little fast)
B3-E4: same as above (Ok, nice)
C4-G4: near pure, too just (Ok, nice)
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow (check second (simultaneous) playing... quite nice)
D4-A4: OK, but reversed. (yes, little too narrow)

You wrote:..."Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone."...

Yes, slowly move your hammer... follow the beat-rythm, feel the pin, its torsion, how it is bending... you want to evaluate and control those forces in order to counter-charge each pin.

Next:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.


The base is much better, D4 is a little high, which is good (!), you would remember that and adjust it later. The same for A4, it is a little too wide and you would adjust that later.

The thirds progression is quite impressive, very good indeed... "Hair" review the above, a nice challenge.

- . - . - . -

Forrest, if you like, you too can be active here.

- . - . - . -

Have a nice day, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/24/12 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Thanks for your clearity, Dan.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your own review, my comment in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-13-oct-2012

A3-C#4: OK, (yes, it sounds Ok but it is sweet, more tipical for a lower third)
A#3-D4: slow (faster/better than previous)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: Slow (Ok)
C#4-F4: slow (slow/sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4 OK (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes)
G4-G#4 slow, near pure (check, it's only sweeter than previous)
F4-A4 slow (yes)

A3-A4 may too narrow. (yes)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-13-oct-2012

A3-D4 ok. (slow, too close to just)
A#3-D#4, B3-E4, C4-F4: progressive but too fast. (not progressive, A#3-D#4 is much too fast)

C#4-F#4: OK, may be too slow. (fast)
D4-G4, D#4-G#4 sloer. (yes, too slow, also E4-A4)

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-13-oct-2012

A3-E4 OK (yes, very nice)
A#3-F4 very fast, better say its third (simply a little fast)
B3-E4: same as above (Ok, nice)
C4-G4: near pure, too just (Ok, nice)
C#4-G#4: Move too soon, too narrow (check second (simultaneous) playing... quite nice)
D4-A4: OK, but reversed. (yes, little too narrow)

You wrote:..."Need to improve hammer skill. Keeping steady slow move can hear the change in tone."...

Yes, slowly move your hammer... follow the beat-rythm, feel the pin, its torsion, how it is bending... you want to evaluate and control those forces in order to counter-charge each pin.

Next:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Hi,

This is the third pass. I had micro moved some pins. Wait until tomorrow to check the stability.

The octave interval named base to avoid the irritating key word CHAS.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

I found keep a longer distance from the string to my ears, I can hear voices of two notes blended together.


The base is much better, D4 is a little high, which is good (!), you would remember that and adjust it later. The same for A4, it is a little too wide and you would adjust that later.

The thirds progression is quite impressive, very good indeed... "Hair" review the above, a nice challenge.

- . - . - . -

Forrest, if you like, you too can be active here.

- . - . - . -

Have a nice day, a.c.


Listen to the sound file again, still need to improve a lot.

BASE:
A3-E4, E4-A4 too just.
A3-D4, D4-A4 OK
A3-A4: OK.

Thirda
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: fast
B3-D#4: OK
C4-E4: seems slow. May be the string has problem, not easy to hear.
C#4-F4: OK
D4-F#4: Slow
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: OK
F4-A4: slow.

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: Slow
B3-E4: OK
C4-F4: OK
C#4-F#4: slow, beats same as above.
D4-G4: Slow
D#4-G#4: OK
E4-A4: slow

Fifths:
A3-E4: too just
A#3-F4, B3-F#4, C4-G4, C#4-G#4, E4-A4 OK.

Hammer skill. A major obstacle need to overcome.

Thanks.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/25/12 02:07 AM

Micro adjusted some interval yesterday.

Hear to the piano directly. The sound file have different perception and there may some pitch change in these few days.

This exercise aimed at the micro hammer technique.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-24-oct-2012
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/30/12 01:00 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see your self review, my comment in brackets:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-oct-2012

BASE:
A3-E4, E4-A4 too just. (A3-E4 is Ok, E4-A4 is a bit wide)
A3-D4, D4-A4 OK (A3-D4 is a bit wide, D4-A4 is Ok)
A3-A4: OK.(a bit wide, perfect to begin with)

Thirds
A3-C#4: OK (yes)
A#3-D4: fast (Ok)
B3-D#4: OK (yes)
C4-E4: seems slow. May be the string has problem, not easy to hear. (Ok, tense)
C#4-F4: OK (Ok, sweeter than previous)
D4-F#4: Slow (yes)
D#4-G4: OK (yes, tense)
E4-G#4: OK (yes)
F4-A4: slow. (yes, a little bit)

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (yes)
A#3-D#4: Slow (yes, too just)
B3-E4: OK (yes, a little too wide - see C4-E4)
C4-F4: OK (yes, a little slow)
C#4-F#4: slow, beats same as above. (yes)
D4-G4: Slow (not sure)
D#4-G#4: OK (yes)
E4-A4: slow (yes, A4 has gone down)

Fifths:
A3-E4: too just (this is Ok)
A#3-F4, (too just - see F4-A4) B3-F#4 (Ok), C4-G4 (a hair too just), C#4-G#4 (Ok), E4-A4 OK (a hair too narrow (*)).

(*): Try to invert the above fifths progression.

- . - . - . -

As you can see, you have done very well. I'm very impressed and I would say... Do trust your ear, compare (as a reference) the beat rate of adiacent intervals, relate your hammer and whole body to beats. "Hammer skill" takes time, micro-adjustements will help for both beat-curves and unisons.

If you like, you could add the recordings of higher octaves and 10ths, like A3-C#5, up to the first 12th (A3-E5). Make sure the outer strings are well-muted. And train your "beat-map" memory, so that you may be able to correct two (or more) intervals with only one move.

Next:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Micro adjusted some interval yesterday.

Hear to the piano directly. The sound file have different perception and there may some pitch change in these few days.

This exercise aimed at the micro hammer technique.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-24-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-24-oct-2012


You wrote:..."there may some pitch change in these few days."...

Actually, pitch changes occour also while we are tuning, for this reason you may prefer to stay a little bit... higher... as long as you remember where.

When ever, you may review the above.

Best regards, a.c.
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/01/12 06:28 AM

Sorry for not review last tuning.

For preparation of higher octave, retune the temperament and add two more test.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012

Four sixths within A3-A4. They should be progressive.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Not review above tuning yet. Going to higher octaves and post tenths later.

Thank you.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/01/12 07:14 AM

Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012


Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/14/12 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Sorry for not review last tuning.

For preparation of higher octave, retune the temperament and add two more test.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012

Four sixths within A3-A4. They should be progressive.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Not review above tuning yet. Going to higher octaves and post tenths later.

Thank you.


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see the above recordings:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012

Yes, A3-A4 is a bit too wide, but it is better a-bit-too-wide than any narrow octave. Nice A3-E4 (a hair too narrow), E4-A4 is fast but... you would remember that and adjust A4 later. A3-D4, make it a hair wider... D4-A4 might be reversed.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012

All together you have done well, please listen to the first five thirds and comment.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012

Ok, in general. I am sure you too can spot fourths that are too close-to-just or too wide. Do you want to try?

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

Nice job. You can hear they are quite similar.. (apart from A3-E4 and D4-A4) now it gets challenging, you want to hear that both fourths and fifths are progressive. Fourths progressive-wider, fifths progressive closer to "just". Let these intervals "sound" a little bit longer and do not hesitate, evaluate how the interval's sound evolves and, in case, make your correction. To get it "dirty" or "exact" takes the same time! Stay a hair on the "tense-salty" side and map your small pitch approximations in your mind.

You wrote:..."A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012 "...

I never compare intervals in that way, I evaluate every single interval's beat-curve and its chromatic progression. Of course, D4-F#4 will be faster than A3-C#4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Well, not bad. Would you like to comment (faster/slower)?

Tomorrow... 10ths and your latest posting.

When will those lovely birds be back?

Have a nice day, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 11/15/12 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.


Hello,

Let's see:

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Well done, in general. If I were to refer to my musical ear, I may say that none of the above octaves sounds offensive. In fact, also with octaves, our ear is fairly good-tempered and may not complain for small approximations. But then, when we play complex chords.. approximations can/will add up, so reducing the harmoniousness of the whole. Let's focus on how the beat appears, on "when" beats show up; you may check from F3-F4 to C4-C5 and let me know what you hear.

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

G3-B4 is much faster than previous, G#3-C5 is slower than previous... I am sure you can hear that. Would you like to review the rest?

From C4-E5, where beats get very fast, you may evaluate sweet/calm // sour/tense. Normally, when I get to E5 I stop comparing chromatic 10ths and evaluate the first 12th (A3-E5): considering centre-string, we want the octaves and 10ths "correct" progression lead to/confirm A3-E5 "just" (as a practical/general case), i.e. apparently no-beating. 12ths are not difficult to evaluate and can indicate the stretch-curve we are choosing. You only need to remember that, after left/right string unisons, you may get a variation in pitch. Try to anticipate that variation by choosing the appropriate stretch for all intervals.

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

I do not think we need to review that. Now I'd rather say this: when expanding my partition towards the bass, I mainly relate 4ths, 5ths and octaves and check the thirds and 10ths progressions. When expanding towards the trebles, I use octaves (and perhaps fifths) up to C#5; then I relate C#4-C#5 (and previous octaves) to A3-C#5, this works as the first octave-stretch indication; then octaves and 10ths, up to E5; then octaves and 12ths, up to A5, where I can also check the 12th/15th relationship.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/31/12 03:03 PM

Thank you.

I am still improving my tuning.

This is my last tuning for the year 2012:
forget to record the base.

A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.
F4->C4,
D4->G4,

Best wishes and have a year with harmony.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/12/13 06:13 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...

Originally Posted by Weiyan


A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.



A3-A4, the M3/m6 test does not help my practice; go for beat spead and hammer control; tune A4 like D4, a hair wider;

B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4, (add: place B3-F#4 in between A3-E4 /!/ D4-A4);
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4 (place F#4-C#4 in between A3-D4 /!/ E4-A4); do the same with all other ready-available (but temporary) intervals.

The Chinese New Year is February the 10th, I've discovered, more joy to come.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/29/13 12:32 PM

Thank you.

Harmony seems too far from here. The Gini coefficient is very high. The house price is sky high for a tuner. 27 tunings for 1ft sq floor area(gross, net useable area should at least discount 30%). For a 600 ft sq 20 years old apartment, 16200 tunings. If 1000 tunings per year, 16.2 years non stop working, no food, no drink, no traffic, no medicine, no inflation, then I can afford a flat.

For the CHAS tuning, I think its time to try different pianos. For on site tuning, the psychological state and the quality of the piano play important role.

Today I tuned a aKwai and have surplus time to take record. Will post on next post.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/29/13 01:36 PM

today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 01/31/13 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Hi Weiyan,

In general, you have done a very good job.

Before we go on with other details, I need your answer (from my previous post, third line):

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...




If possible, let me know if you can hear what I hear. Let me know what you do not notice, and if some intervals are easier (for you to evaluate) than others. This will help me decide how and where to direct your attention.

About the Gini coefficient, also in Milan, perhaps like in Paris or London, it is pretty hard... Anyway, perhaps that is only.. outer harmony.

Regards, a.c.
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/09/13 01:01 PM

Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/10/13 02:38 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I wish you and your family all the best, and... be this '13 "snake's" a very special year for all of us.

I will soon be back to your technical comments.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/14/13 12:50 AM

Hi Alfred,

Happy New Year and best wishes in this year of Snake.

Regards
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/13 06:38 PM

Hi Weiyan,

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財


Fourths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps (yes)
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps (yes)
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps (please note, this is slower than A3-D4)
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow. (C#4-F#4 is much faster than C4-F4, E4-A4 is much faster than D#4-G#4)

Thirds (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

A3-C#4: OK (yes)
A#3-D4: Slow (yes)
B3-D#4: fast (yes)
C4-E4: Ok (this is sweet/slow - it sounds sweeter than A3-C#4
C#4-F4: Fast (yes, very much)
D4-F#4: slow (yes, sloweer than C#4-F4, but quite Ok)
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval (yes, quite Ok)
E4-G#4: Ok (Ok)
F4-A4: Ok (sweeter than E4-G#4)

Fifths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider (E4 should go "a hair" up, you also improve C4-E4 and E4-A4)
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth (yes, near perfect, this is how 5ths should sound; this one is quite good)
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4 (please, double check, this is quite good, perhaps B3 can go up a bit, as E4)
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive (please, double check,
almost 2 bps, C4 can go down a bit?)
C#4-G#4: OK (check, slower than C4-G4 but too narrow - G#4 can go up a bit?)
D4-A4: ok (too much movement, too narrow, this really must be "near perfect")

- . - . - . -

Very good, Weiyan. Now, in general, we will remember that "progressive" must be "smooth", and chromatic intervals "progress" differently. The beat rate of chromatic Thirds, for example, accelerate sensibly between F3-A3 and C4-E4.

And now, if you like, we can also address wider intervals, like 6ths, octaves, 10ths and 12ths. Be confident, your ear can "read" beats very well, and you want to refine your "eye" for drawing a wider beat-map and correct consequently. So doing we will temper the form.

Next:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Thank you. Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/19/13 09:01 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Let's check:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing."...

That's fine. As mentioned, I do not use the M3/m6 test.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat."...

The octave is Ok;
A3-E4: almost 1 bps, can be closer to just; if possible, record longer (for both of us and others), double the time; lower partials are louder and here they are slower than high partials (3 bps, like E4-A4);
A3-D4: too just, no beat
D4-A4: inverted? Double check, always;

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

Weiyan, right now I must leave, but I'll be back soon.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/20/13 07:27 PM


Hi Weiyan,

Here we go (my comment between brackets):

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

A3-C#4 OK (yes)
A#3-D4 OK (slower than A3-C#4, I know you can hear that)
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval (yes)
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually it's too slow (yes, a bit sweet)
C#4-F4 fast (yes, fast-Ok)
D4-F#4 ok (yes)

Missed: D#4-G4... (Ok, sweeter than D4-F#4)

E4-G#4 fast (Ok)
F4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013

A3-D4 ok (too just)
A#3-D#4 little bit slow (too just, like A3-D4)
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow (yes, no beat as above)
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording (well done)
C#4-F#4 OK (slow, make it a little bit faster than 1 bps)
D4-G4 OK (slow)
D#4-G#4 slow (better than D4-G4)
E4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013

A3-E4, refer to base (commented yesterday)
A#3-F4 OK (yes, F4 down a bit, as you did, all these fifth must "breathe")
B3-F#4 OK (as above, a hair too just)
C4-G4 fast (please, record fifths for longer time, 4 secs each)
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave????? (yes, it beats about 2 bps)
D4-A4 OK (see previous post)

- . - . - . -

Few words, in general: be strict with the base, if you tune A3-E4 too narrow and A3-D4 too just... you cannot use two main references; beyond that, you are doing great and you are able to compare beats, even for "insidious" intervals.

On this, I suggest you to expand beyond the first 13 notes span, without expecting some "static perfection". On purpose, evaluate and make use of some approximations (on the "higher" side) - no more than what you can trace - and move up towards the trebles, double checking also the notes you have just tuned. Stay a little bit (a hair) higher, and remember that.. especially between C4 and C6 the pitch will more likely go down/flat.

Once you have tuned a larger span, you will be able to evaluate more easily how beats progress and their coherence, by checking intervals like chromatic 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths. More intervals make the beat-map more complex, and this is why I suggest you to exercise and refine your "wider" eye, try to visualize the beat-geometry in your mind.

I do not think a set of sounds can be "transferred" on a piano like if it was a decal (decalcomania), simply because the piano's structure and the strings are continuously moving, say "adjusting" in force of new tensions and loadings (and playing), especially during the act of tuning. I think I am dealing more with a dynamic phenomenon, with a growing form, something that is "becoming" under my eyes. I prefer to consider all the "adjustments" (that are going to take place) as part of a game… "who will have the last word" over the form?

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/25/13 03:49 PM

Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/26/13 03:14 PM

Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow.
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-E4: fast

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: Slow
C4-F4: OK (begin to progressive, considered slow)
C#4-F#4: OK
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: fast
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK(compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive
B3-F#4: OK
C4-G4: OK
C#4-G#4: OK
D3-A4: fast

Overall impression:
This is more likely a stander ET than C.HA.S.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/01/13 03:03 PM

Hi Alfredo,

Re-arrange the tuning sequence. Tune temperament from F3-A4.
Firstly,
A3->E4, A3->D4,
then E4->B3,
Tune the F temperament. Then tune the octave, align fifths to regressive br after A3-E4. I found F temperament is easier to tune. The strings in F temperament is longer so have larger hammer movement.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-mar-2013

Fifths from F3-C4 to D4-A4. The br progressive then regressive.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f-2-mar-2013

Octaves F3-F4 to A3-A4, octaves are marginal, not solid.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/02/13 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Below your "self critic" and my comments (between brackets):

Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow. (yes)
A3-E4: OK (yes, try to make it closer to just)
E4-A4: slow (yes)
A3-D4: OK (slow, try to make it wider, 1 bps)
D4-A4: fast (yes)

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (slow, see base)
A#3-D#4: OK (slow)
B3-E4: Slow (yes)
C4-F4: OK, begin to progressive, considered slow; (OK)
C#4-F#4: OK (slow)
D4-G4: fast (yes)
D#4-G#4: fast (yes)
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK, compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps; (slow, next time go for 2.5 bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK (play/record fifths for longer... easier to evaluate, fifths must breathe, no real beating)
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive (correct)
B3-F#4: OK (too just, no breathing)
C4-G4: OK (fast, beating)
C#4-G#4: OK (as above)
D4-A4: fast (better than C4-G4 and C#4-G#4)

- . - . - . -

I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 09:08 AM

Quote
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 11:12 AM

Weivan, I am sorry to interfere in your discussion, but let me suggest that you need to master the tuning pin better, (work your unisons more).

I suspect that what you record and what you tuned may differ as you are not setting the pin well enough (so the wire and the pin may move immediately, and you record something different from your initial intention)

Learn first to set the pin really firmly and precisely, even on a not perfect unison aint the problem.

You must be able to bump on the hammer handle, relatively firmly) and have the note spring back exactly where it was (or eventually not move at all).

I see you feel some pin setting , but it is not well related to the wire work.

ALl the best. You seem to progress on intervals anyway...
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/03/13 11:51 AM

Issac,
Thank you.

I agree need to improve hammer skill.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 08:05 AM

Today's C.HA.S tuning session.

1. Use new hammer skill. Fast stroke and listen to attack. Push the lever until it has high friction. Then play again to evaluate beat rate with emphasis to attack. If not satisfy re-do the process.

2. Fourths have faster br.

3. Tune A3 from A4, not care the width of the octave. Correct A4 after finishing the intervals.

4. Follow the C.HA.S procedure, A3-A4 temperament. Then tune octaves down to F3. Evaluate beat rates of F temperament and make adjustment.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/05/13 10:41 AM

This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/06/13 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Olek
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one

Compare the base with last tuning, latest one is cleaner. Not sure this is due to firmer pin setting or better interval.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/06/13 03:18 AM

This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Some words about hammering. When push the lever to a high friction point, evaluate the br. Then push with added force again, the pin may turn, or have crack sound. But the br change is none to little. The sound quality is cleaner. In some case the br change drastically need to retune.

Thank you
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/08/13 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Quote
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Following yours, my comment (between brackets):

A3-C#4: OK (fast)
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect (slow, about 5 bps)
B3-D#4: same as above (faster than A#3-D4, about 7 bps)
C4-E4: fast (a hair sweeter/slower than B3-D#4)
C#4-E#4: slow (yes)
D4-F#4: slow (OK!)
D#4-G4: fast (sweet/slow)
E4-G#4: slow (yes)
F4-A4; slow (yes)

- . - . - . -

..."There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?"...

Yes, in a way. In fact if three thirds, f.e. A3-C#4-F4-A4 were "just", we would get a very narrow octave. In this sense, a narrow octave may induce and push you towards slow thirds; in other words, any wrong octave will either crush or over-stretch other intervals. And this works also the other way around, any wrong interval may cause a wrong octave. You understand that our tuning form is inter-related in absolute terms.

Tomorrow we will check your latest recordings and will deepen on sequence and hammer/pin control.

Isaac, thank you for partecipating.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/13 04:14 PM


Hi Weiyan,

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.



Regards,
Weiyan


First, you flatten A3... good;
- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;
- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat;
at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time;
at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);
at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;
the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;
at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";
at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;
at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;
between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/09/13 05:38 PM

Hello all nice description on the moves, Weyan, I am too lazy to do such work , but this is very important, and I don t see how tuning learning could be better controled (without being on site)

It is amazing how we can understand what is going on, just by looking and listening, while not tuning ourselves...

About control, would not it be easier if Weiyan recorded the 5th abd 4 th cycles of the temperament ? I suggest we tend to leave some intervals larger. I know for instance I had problems with g5 for a long time, just an ear sensitivity question probably.

On all 4th and 5th temperaments I find differences depending of the tuner or the sequence, I was not able to investigate a lot but this was evident.

Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings

Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/10/13 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Olek
...........


Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings



There is a reason for colleagues not speaking of tuning techniques, styles, etc.

Whenever anybody has mentioned anything remotely about tuning in this forum, take a close look at your reply.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 12:48 PM

Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/14/13 09:47 PM

Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?


Chris Leslie, a joined this thread years after the starting of this thread.

The sequence:
A4->A3
A3->D4 1bps(D4-A4 near pure)
A4->E4 1.5beats/2sec (E4-A4 2bps)
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

Tne octave and first two intervals are call base.
Thirds and fourths progressive br.
Fifths regressive br. That begins at A3-E4 1.5b/2sec to near pure at D4-A4.

Pls. correct it if any mistake.

Regards,
Weiyan

Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 09:31 AM

Thanks Weiyan. I was just wondering if you use 3rds and 6ths as checks and guides during the sequence, or just to test afterwards. What does CHAS say about this?
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 09:39 AM

Similar relations, testing on FBI "proofs" of course allows to get the temperament.

correlations are to be well known, as for any tuning


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 09:54 AM


Hi Chris,

You can visit:

http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40&Itemid=38&lang=en

and download:

The Harmonic Temperament - C.Ha.S. - Aural Preparatory Tuning - Sequence Flowchart

Yes, also during the sequence you have to compare 4ths, 5ths, 3ds and (possibly) 6ths. Have a look at the flowchart (edit: Thanks to Ernest Unrau and Isaac Oleg) and let us know.

Weiyan,

Now I'm going to listen to your latest recordings and post some comments.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/15/13 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.



Regards,
Weiyan


First, you flatten A3... good;
- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;
- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat;
at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time;
at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);
at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;
the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;
at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";
at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;
at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;
between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.


Originally Posted by Weiyan
Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.


Hi Weiyan,

Thanks for your feedback, try to relax your ear and do Not think "trust", your ear will refine "in time"; in general, concentrate more on your (most natural) breathing and arm/body posture.

Let's go on with the "base" video/recording for some addings.

A3-E4:

at 0:59 you raise E4... good; you then go towards the spot, but... is E4 flat? Remember, while charging the pin you must (slowly) pass the (pure/just) spot, so you make sure that E4 is flat;

at 1:10 you go onto A3-D4;

when you move your hammer, try to play only one time;

at 1:15 you flatten D4... good, be more delicate, you only need to uncharge the pin, and then raise;
at 1:17 you hear the spot and feel the pin, very very good!! you raise D4, good;
from 1:21 to 1:24/25 you charge the pin... good, next time make that slower; follow the beat closely, how the beat slows down.. until you can count/sing the beat, while still charging the pin, get the just-spot and release the hammer, check D4 (at least) 1/bps sharp; in that video is too close to just.

Please, have a look at the Pre-sequence (linked above)... A3-E4 is very little narrow, and after A#3-F4, I tune D4-G4 (close to E4-A4, in between the two adiacent fourths), and relate C4 to G4 and F4.

Next:

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan


Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 06:10 AM

Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 06:55 AM

I also wonderr that
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/16/13 10:48 AM


Hi Weiyan,

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.

Thanks, Chris and Isaac.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.


Surely do FBI checking when available. The first available is A3-F#4 sixth, then A3-C#4, B3-G#4, B3-D4. The progressiveness of these FBI not guarantee the intonation of the tuning for all of them are depend on B3-F#4. So there is always left the gap of C4-F4, C4-G4. Analysis these gap to decide if F#4 is too high or too low.

In coming days will focus on the base.

Should you share some of your experience?
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 02:33 AM

Thanks. Keep up the good momentum with Alfredo.
I would also establish a progressive sequence of M3rds, F3,A3,C#4,F4,A4, because that gives another base that works well as handles with your sequence. But that is just my preference.
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 03:19 AM

I believe the inconsistancies we her are due to Weyan just gttin the felling or pin setting lately. Good pin setting make the tone more pure, it is then easier to listen for beats.
So now it is taking place for you, Weyan.

You are right to work on temperament base, that first octave have to shine, it is not easy to get a feel for that.

(the standard test M3 M10 can help you at last to be sure he octave is in the good direction if you are unsure , but we take the habit to tune octaves directly, and look more in progressiveness than comparative checks that are sometime surprising (and make the ear tired sooner)
Any FBI is helping to be sure of tge slow intervals and octave.

Yes ladder of M3 is easier for listening to pogressiveness, but gives no idea of the octave size, which seem to be wher the trouble is.

Even with 4 th and 5th the octave can be secured, and it is particularely necessary with Chas, due to the pivot point .

Greetings
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.

Thanks, Chris and Isaac.

Regards, a.c.
.


That is how the base, i.e. five beat-rates interweaved "all in one", help me define one more fundamental interval, the tone, in this case D4-E4.

In other words, the tone is the result of precise "proportions", the beat relations I have established between five beat frequencies, strictly interlaced.

These proportions involve 2:1 (the octave), 3:2 (the fifth) and 4:3 (the fourth), and those small numbers are employed in the Chas equality: (3-Delta)=(4+s*Delta)

From these premises - interweaving all intervals (and beat progressions) inside and outside the A3-A4 octave - you are enabled to reduce approximations and choose/adopt the most convenient pre-Form, whatever the size of the piano.

Thanks Isaac and Chris, I hope to be back this afternoon.

Have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 01:59 PM

Thank you for the comments.

This is 15-Mar, Friday's tuning. The tuning is prior to above comments.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-mar-2013

Below are interval from F3 to A4
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirdsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourthsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifthsf-15-mar-2013

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: Olek

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/17/13 05:41 PM

the octave is too short, seem to me (without headphones)

upper 4th no beat Lower 5th too much
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/22/13 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Weiyan

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-A4: fast

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3:D4: OK
B3-D#4: slow
C4-E4: Slow
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval.
D4-F#4: OK
D#4-G4: OK
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd!
F4-A4: slow

Fourths
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: slow
C4-F4: slow
C#4-F#4: slow
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: slow
E4-A4: slow

Fifths
A3-E4: ok
A#3-F4: too just
B3-F#4: slow
C4-G4: fast
C#4-G#4: ok
D4-A4: fast

Raise A4, F4, G#4,
Drop C4

The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Let's proceed with your self-correction above (my comments between brackets), this is how you can develop and gain authonomy; we will check your March 15th recordings later on.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013

The Base:
A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 (Yes!)
A3-E4: OK (Yes, nice and very slow beat rate, always check.. narrow side)
E4-A4: slow (Yes)
A3-D4: OK (Slow, make it abour 1 bps)
D4-A4: fast (Yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK (Yes, a little slow)
A#3:D4: OK (Yes, a bit fast, you want a smoother progression)
B3-D#4: slow (Yes, slow, about 7 bps)
C4-E4: Slow (?? let's check C4, I hear it too wide)
C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. (Yes, slow, about 6 bps; faster than previous?)
D4-F#4: OK (Yes, Temporarely)
D#4-G4: OK (sensibly more tense than previous)
E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! (Yes, only slow/sweet)
F4-A4: slow (?? let's check F4)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013

Fourths
A3-D4: OK (Slow, see base)
A#3-D#4: OK (Fast, about 2 bps, ask YS, is this why A#3-D4 was fast?)
B3-E4: slow (I hear about 4 bps)
C4-F4: slow (Quite OK)
C#4-F#4: slow (Yes)
D4-G4: fast (Yes, about 4 bps)
D#4-G#4: slow(Faster than previous, about 6 bps)
E4-A4: slow (Yes, see base)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013

Fifths
A3-E4: ok (Yes, nice and correct)
A#3-F4: too just(Nice, as above)
B3-F#4: slow (Yes, shy, check narrow side and 5th breathing)
C4-G4: fast (Yes, check narrow/wide side, check C4-E4 as mentione above)
C#4-G#4: ok (Yes, always check narrow side)
D4-A4: fast (Yes, see base)

Raise A4, F4, G#4, (Yes, also A#3)
Drop C4 (Before that... correct D4, Double check G4 comparing also A3-F#4 and A#3-G4)

- . - . - . -

Very good, Weiyan, I see that most of your Self-critique is correct.

I will ask you to record the sequence in a different way.

Now, try to work on fourths: for instance you can compare three fourths on the same interval, by muting the three strings of the same note in turn.

For example, tune A3-D4, D4's mid-string, D4's left string muting the other two strings, and D4's right string;

On one string (remember which), tune A3-D4 pure, one close to pure/wide, and one close to pure/narrow;

Compare those three samples by listening to one sample at the time, this may help developping both "taste" (sweet/sour) and beat rate recognizing.

Now in Italy is spring... are those lovely birds coming back at yours anytime soon?

Regards, a.c.

Edit: From your latest post: ..."...Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval."

For the time being, do not think about attack/sustain, go simply for the louder/most evident beat.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 03/26/13 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Thank you for the comments.

This is 15-Mar, Friday's tuning. The tuning is prior to above comments.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-mar-2013

Below are interval from F3 to A4
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirdsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourthsf-15-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifthsf-15-mar-2013

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat has cleaner interval.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Let's listen together to the above recordings.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-15-mar-2013

In general, considering beat rates, D4 and A4 may be both on the wrong side and, beat-wise, they would sound OK; remember always to make sure that the base-intervals are on the right side, wide octave and fourths, narrow fifths.

Let's see the thirds:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-mar-2013

Much better than previous tunings; please notice that A#3-D4 is much slower than A3-C#4, and D#4-G4 and F4-A4 are sweeter than previous 3rds. These are all clear indications that some other intervals can be improved as well. Then we have to check our tuning again, and in this case we have to first check A#3, D4, D#4, G4, F4 and A4.

A#3 may be too high (in pitch) (*)
D4 may be too low

D#4 may be too high
G4 may be too low

F4 may be too high
A4 may be too low

Let's check the sequence and map the beat rates, you would start refining the intervals that, more than others, sound wrong and/or improvable:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-15-mar-2013

B3-E3 is a bit fast... check B3-D#4... and D#4-G#4, this is beatless; here you would also compare with D4-G4 and E4-A4.

You know that, if D#4 is too high, perhaps A#3 will be too high ((*) see above); if A#3-F4 is just (check fifths), F4 will be too high; check C4-G4, it beats too much... and so on.

During the sequence, remember to compare the proceeding intervals - step by step - with your base-beat-references and interlace M6ths and thirds as soon as you can. Soon you will learn to compare intervals more strictly, you will be able to tune A#3 and notice if A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 and B3-D#4 are fairly progressive, otherwise you would go back and check again all previous steps.

Next time, if you like, when you record the sequence you can play also the "already tuned" intervals, for instance:

E4-B3, play (and compare) also A3-D4
B3-F#4, play (and compare) also A3-E4; play and evaluate A3-F#4
F#4-C#4, play also E4-B3 and E4-A4, so you can place that fourth (and 4ths progression) more correctly; evaluate A3-C#4 etc.

Regards, a.c.
.

Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/02/13 01:19 AM

Thank you.

In coming days will focus on 5th and 4th. Tune each of the three string to fifth, as suggested in previous post. I found that my B3-F#4 are usually reversed. May need refinement on the hammer control.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/02/13 09:00 PM


Yes, Weiyan, "hammer control" and pin-charge Vs string-tension relationship.

Remember to be aware of your body posture, when you over-raise the pitch... be willing (in your mind) to make use of all your body.

Relax your ear, the beat will show up and tell you what to do; play together, in time with the beat, on the beat, and concentrate onto the pin: turn the pin clock-wise gently, evaluate pin torsion and bending, over-raise the pitch and charge the pin anti-clock-wise; better if you can stabilize the (temporary) pitch with a Forte blow.

What about those singing birds I heard at yours?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/05/13 02:00 AM

The birds are migrating here now. There are some birds singing. Make have more birds singing in next post. Cicadidae will sing in two months later. Few people can enjoy this music now.
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/09/13 05:05 AM

This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/09/13 09:31 AM


Well done, Weiyan.

I will be back as soon as possible.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/10/13 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.


Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/17/13 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.


Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:
ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:
ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

Regards,
Weiyan
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/24/13 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is the result of a two days tuning session.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-apr-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-apr-2013

EDIT
The first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.


Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c.
.


Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:
ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:
ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Please find my comment below (between brackets):

The thirds:

OK............/slow..../ok.........../slow..../ok........../slow......../ok../ok../ok
(Ok-sweet//slower//Ok-sweet//slower//Ok-tense//Ok-tense//Ok//Ok//sweet)

fifths:
ok........./pure........./ok/pure(seems tense)/ok............../ok
(beating/almost just/Ok/faster, 1bps.+...../about 0.5bps/as previous)

fourths:
ok...../same as previous/ok......./ok........../ok../fast/pure..../ok
(slow/slow................./Ok-fast/fast 2bps/slow/fast/Ok-fast/Ok)

- . - . - . -

As you see, in most cases your self-correction is quite... correct! You can trust your ear and expand the first octave; keep in your mind (and map) any doubt, try to remember (perhaps) 2 or 3 intervals that you hear you may improve and check them by expanding more fifths, octaves and 10ths, 12ths....

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-9-apr-2013

The octave is too just;
A3-E4 too narrow;
E4-A4 Ok, next time raise both;
A3-D4 just;
D4-A4 too beating (reverse?)

..."The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning."...

That's good.

..."The difficulties:
The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny.
Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction."...

Yes, hammer-control and stable-pitch come with time, no problem. More important, concentrate on the pin, on its torsion, bending and turning, and going anti-clock-wise relate pitch with pin-charge with no hurry, follow the beat as it slows down and get to the spot.

Next time, if you like: base, fourths (up to F4-A#4), octaves, 10ths and 12ths.

Lots of bird singing here too..

Regards,

Alfredo
Posted By: MU51C JP

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/24/13 06:30 PM

Hi weiyan - although I have not been active with you on this thread, I have none the less been following your progress. It is such a pleasure to see someone so dedicated to improvement as your good self ....never giving up and trying to achieve perfection.

I think you can be very proud of how far you have come, and further more ....... how good you have become! There are not many tuners about that could attain your new found skill standards. Well done ..... you have but a short way too go to achieve perfection ..... and I think ..... you will !!

Sincere best wishes,
John
Posted By: Weiyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 05/03/13 06:38 AM

John, thank you for your words of encouragement.

Alfredo, thank you.
I am back and will submit new tuning next week. I had rhyroplasty operation last week. Its 90% success, the remain 1% still make me silent. Will have follow up operation one or two months later.

The whether is not stable it. Its supposed to be hot in this season, but its cold. The birds flue in China make people fear of birds singing.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 05/03/13 03:54 PM


Hi Weiyan,

I hope it was not too painful, my eldest son had to go through a similar thing and I know that is a very sensitive area.

My best wishes for a fast recovery,

Alfredo
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 01:42 PM


Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.




Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 02:56 PM

Alfredo, again, you lift my post out of one thread and put it in another with a different context.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

All to resurect a thread that all have lost interest in since your last posting eight months ago. That sounds desperate.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be attempting to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 04:05 PM


rxd,

Let me quote my post:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.


And here is your reply:

Originally Posted by rxd
Alfredo, again, you lift a thread out of one context and put it in another to gain brownie points for your own ends.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread and I am still resisting. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be trying to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.



I hope you re-read the above and understand that:

a) I have already got my "points" and do not need to gain anymore (here);
b) I never think I should evaluate other readers' intelligence, as that (for me) it is simply arrogant;
c) I do understand what the thread I quoted above is about, as well as what you wrote;
d) Times may come, when we manage to focus on theoretical and practical issue as one, despite (or aside) the Topic;
e) You, like any other poster, may be involved in this thread (or any other) on the basis of what you write, provided you can manage your own obsession and be respectful;

f) That's true, it might look like I am recruiting "...people" for a "...cause" of mine; actually, I am peacefully trying to share my experience and some results that may concern the "cause" of ours;

..."...publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable."

Well, rxd, you decide, but (as mentioned) try to take it easy, nobody here is undermining your authority.

My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.
.





Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/26/13 08:50 PM

Dearest Alfredo.

I have answered the questions in your latest post in my post immediately before it. But I will expand on it. Expand being a poor choice of words as will soon transpire. .

Much of my work consists of tuning the same 15-20 9' grands. Sometimes it is my lot to tune the same 9' piano 12 times in four days. Now, the accepted way to tune a piano is from the middle outwards.

I can choose, for the last 8-9 of those tunings to check the piano from the outer octaves inwards towards the middle. Or to see how it works out from the fifth or sixth octave outwards and inwards

For some kinds of musical situations I will begin with a narrow third octave and tune both ways out from there. I never put in an interval in the temperament range, however large I want make it or whichever range I want to tune it, without considering how it will invert or transfer into all different parts of the instrument.

I have thus luxury. I can either do a touch up tuning or a refinement tuning starting wherever I feel appropriate. If I am on attendance, I can hear how the piano is being used. If I am only called for the tunings, I arrive early so that I can hear a few playbacks. I prefer to call it refinement rather than touch up.

After so long doing this class of work, beatrate memory has to kick in. I would be a fool to ignore it and not use it as another tool.

No tuning is ever scheduled for any more than an hour and sometimes some of the initial tuning is cut short waiting for the piano to arrive, traffic being the way it is. They always arrive reasonably in tune and within pitch parameters, Often coming direct from another engagement or having been properly tuned before despatch from the basement.
An accurate beat rate memory and the ability to work from the most in tune sections of the piano is very helpful when time is limited.

I have never been the sort of person who blindly follows rules so I can't possibly ever get bored with my lot. But I do know that not considering the whole piano when setting the temperament area will slow down the tuning.

What's this to do with other tuners? Most tuners have access to a 48" uprite that has standard beat rates (or a 6' grand) that they can give a half hours attention a few times over a week to practice making refinements to a piano that is already, to all intents and purposes, in tune. Get away from the idea of touch up tuning and think refinement. The more refined the tuning, the more upkeep it takes.

We're talking about fast beating minor thirds being difficult to hear and so many don't use them in tuning but fast beating major thirds in the fifth and sixth octaves should be concentrated on because the are almost always ignored. Perceptive people and fine microphones perceive too fast a M3 in the fifth and sixth and seventh octaves as a screaming in the tone. Most all regular tuners ignore these.

Of course, anything too fast in the upper octaves has its genesis in the temperament octaves so any unevenness there will become intolerable to the finer ear higher into the treble. Any tendency to over stretch will soon be exposed with this test. of course, 17ths must conform and pianos can be very accommodating with the twelfths in the treble. Fifths, of course, definitely tempered but sounding cleaner with all six strings.
My colleagues seem to prefer the single octave purity over the double octave purity whenever there is a choice.
I prefer just a liitle warmth toward the bass but only if I'm scheduled to see the piano again in a few hours.

Tone regulation in the middle octaves is very important. It is harshness there that can give the perception of flatness in the treble. As can habitually listening to over stretched pianos. This can come from early efforts in tuning that are not controlled by a mentor who is not also caught up in over stretching.

If a piano screams out to be stretched!!! it can be done if all the aforementioned parameters are met.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 12/27/13 07:33 PM


Hi,

Thank you, rxd, for expanding on your practice, I hope that other readers will find that stimulating as I do.

Also in my case, here in London, the time window I am given is one hour and, as you say, many times it gets even less... Anyway, back to my point, it is my opinion that a 12-tones temperament (ET or WT) cannot describe our tunings, for reasons that are mainly related to having/wanting to tune the whole piano.

Leave theoretical issues aside, it is (also) for practical purposes that I would suggest to enlarge the usual "temperament" (and beat-references) to (at least) 19-tones, so including 12ths, and even better if young tuners could have double-octaves as a "check"... Don't you (and All) think that this would be more adherent to our modern practice, that this would enable to keep control of intervals (including 17ths) into all different parts of the instrument?

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/20/14 10:28 PM


Hi All,

I would like to address a special acknowledgment to Grandpianoman. With his 'amateur' dedication and will to improve his expertize, GP has been able to point out a dynamic issue, something that (IMO) all professional Piano Tuners should be aware of:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2259968/1/What_causes_3_strings_to_be_fl.html

To All, Happy Easter. a.c.
.

Posted By: Grandpianoman

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 04/22/14 04:42 AM

Well thank you Alfredo.

I could not help but think if one were to have many of these 'flat' notes after tuning, it would not sound ideal.

Next time I tune my pianos, I am going to pay particular attention to this phenomenon, and try to minimize it with the suggestions in that posting.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/15/15 03:15 PM


Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.






Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/16/15 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

...............
My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.


Alfredo, this is what we call a loaded question. I can hear barrister Rumpole standing on his hind legs and saying, sotto voce; "Oh, don't lead, old darlin'". It's a bit like asking "when did you stop beating your wife?". Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Many of your questions are of this nature.

It would be most unkind but it could be read as a reflex question or even a silly question but there are no stupid questions- only stupid answers.

However. I will answer it from the point of view of someone who is currently tuning a two octave temperament with;

"Quite frankly, in a word,... No!".

Doesn't it depend on who tuned it and how and with what intention for the rest of the piano?
An electronically set 5 adjacent notes can offer the greatest flexibility for the whole piano. Anybody ever tried that? Hybrid temperament sets all the typical tuning notes at their stated pitches (A,Bb&C. If anyone measures it, everything will be precise. Free Tuning apps are common these days. Often incorrectly read but commonly used by anybody, nonetheless. (with a well laid temperament this happens anyway).

I experiment all the time. I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes.

I can stretch to the max. Any fool can do that, most fools do as somebody has said. I can make a cogent argument that it might be best ( more reliably?) done by machine.

I have been elevated and called an ivory tower tuner but doesn't the tuner of domestic pianos have a duty get to know how to tune different ways when members of a musical family play other instruments that may be used in collaboration with the piano and still be within the bounds of ET.

I still want all my options open. Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that.

This week, I attended four masterclasses over the past two days given by principal players of the Berlin Phil. So I am highly elated. I attend orchestralasterclasses regularly, have done ever since I was involved with high level music education. mostly given by principals of international orchestras but this was something special.

Because of the last minute fly in fly out nature of these classes and the constant room usage, we had to use week old tunings with ten minute refinements on each at 440. Whenever the brass players demonstrated on their own instruments fresh out of their cases, they were beautifully in tune with the piano but when I heard them on TV tonight I didn't catch the tuning note but they were an average of 15c sharp which indicates 444-operating pitch,( rarely the same as tuning pitch in any orchestra). I had to leave early in each case do I didn't get a chance to talk.

I am continually immersed in collaborative music making with the piano. I briefly checked the 10ths and 17's on a professionally tuned harp today by a top flight orchestral harpist. They were almost exactly the same size that I aim for in piano collaborative work. That is as narrow as practicable . I was there to refine the piano it was being used with and I had permission to check pitch. Normally it's the other way round, the piano is tuned before the harpists come in.

My point is, there is no one way to tune a piano. To attempt to condemn one method as archaic is to attempt to call what the Berlin Phil is doing as archaic. The principles are still the same as when I was studying music full time. In fact my joy today comes from that. (OK, there are those who condemn the whole concept of a symphony orchestra as archaic)

Beethoven to Wagner articulation for trumpets is tha same with the Berlin as I was taught fifty years ago. Most trumpet players currently adopt a sloppy imprecise style, even with major orchestras. I had a long discussion about this with a well known conductor, being careful not to reference a recent recording where this was evident.

Thats what makes the Berlin so great. Calling something archaic in this way is a perjorative use of the word that can easily be overlooked when answering. Same with unreliable. Unreliable for what? As I have said and you have quoted, a temperament is set with forethought to how it works with the rest of the piano. It helps to be familiar with the make and model of the piano and even the idiosyncracies of a particular piano such as the winding tensions of a particular set of bass strings. These things are noticed when tuning the same make and model every time and hopefully rembered for each piano.

Having said that, larger pianos are more similar fhan different and smaller pianos will develop this own optimum tuning If tuned regularly by the same conciencious tuner.

There. Another long post. Sorry. It wasn't a simple question

Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/15 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.

This attention to distance between partials may not be as spaced out as it seems at first glimpse. There is certainly a difference in perception for me that does depend on which direction I approach 'in tune' from. There was some work done in the 70's that was reported in the American PTG magazine that gave measured numerical evidence of a physical change in the pitch of the partials caused through hammer voicing. these experiments are worth replicating, both in voicing and directional approach in tuning if anyone has the time, equipment and skills.

The difference I have perceived in whence I approach 'in tune' from are now incorporated into my tuning habits. I habitually set pins downwards when going out of the standard temperament area and stop at the first hint of smoothness in the octave then check the thirds and fifth for acceptability. This will put me where I want to be first time. If it doesn't, a little resetting. This works for me and i haven't noticed a difference whether the long steels are very sharp and the lowering distance is long or if they are not and I might need to bring the pitch 1Hz. Or so above and drop down onto pitch. I will certainly look for a difference in the future. Anyway, This gives me the narrowest octaves that I want in that area in a default general purpose tuning. Pin setting direction takes priority with any covered strings in that section.

Covered strings take a similar approach but the pin setting and NSL take priority over the direction of approach. I find here an upward setting is safer, particularly on uprights where the angles tend to be more acute.

The treble I often tune by tenths and seventeenths and check by octaves and fifths, etc. the direction of set varies greatly between the three pins of each unison but I generally feel much safer with an upward spring set of the pins are tight enough or an upward turned set with thumb pressure on tje lever at twelve o'clock.

The general principal in all this is to use as few moves as possible both for efficiency and to avoid heating up the string at the friction points. (part of the problem with a pitch raise, even of just a couple of Hz. Is the heat generated by the initial pull and so working too quickly can be disadvantageous. A leisurely pull is more efficient in the long run because there are fewer corrections for drift to make as the heat dissipates. I am always surprised how much less time a more leisurely general approach to a time limited pitch raise takes.

Now, would the heat generated at one end of the string cause a temporary physical difference in the partials? Worth taking into account in the experiment?

In the final analysis, it makes no difference to my methods whether the slight changes in perception have a physical cause or a psychological cause, it's the end result that matters.

Like the other discussions in this forum, while it may seem unnecessarily nitpicking, is worthwhile for the discoveries made that we can incorporate into our general tuning habits.

I always tune so that I'm making the next tuning easier and so that any pianist in the meantime can do their damnedest and it makes no difference. I remember walking off a stage after tuning and the pianist playfully said, as he walked on that he would knock it out again to which I replied, "I defy you!". I should start taking bets.

Addendum.
This localised heat generation and it's dissipation really brought itself to my attention after a student had spent a long time trying to get one string in tune and remembered about the friction and found the heat generated was tangible. I could feel it with my finger on the string and on the pressure bar. Finer degrees of this have to affect the ultra finesse that is part of tuning. It is for this reason that I object to unnecessary movement of the string, including the relatively recent ritual of lowering the string, sometimes by an alarming amount in the hope of preventing string breakage. I could make a case that excessive lowering or any extra movement of the string may be a major cause for at risk strings to break.

I might flex the pin in a downward direction but this is more to check the set of the pin. Certainly no turning is involved, but a well set pin will not release the string when flexed in this way but the flex has to be accompanied by a flex in the other direction even if the string didn't move and I didn't feel the pin string back. Either by a pull or a slap on the lever handle.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/17/15 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

...............
My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.


Alfredo, this is what we call a loaded question. I can hear barrister Rumpole standing on his hind legs and saying, sotto voce; "Oh, don't lead, old darlin'". It's a bit like asking "when did you stop beating your wife?". Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Many of your questions are of this nature.

It would be most unkind but it could be read as a reflex question or even a silly question but there are no stupid questions- only stupid answers.

However. I will answer it from the point of view of someone who is currently tuning a two octave temperament with;

"Quite frankly, in a word,... No!".

Doesn't it depend on who tuned it and how and with what intention for the rest of the piano?
An electronically set 5 adjacent notes can offer the greatest flexibility for the whole piano. Anybody ever tried that? Hybrid temperament sets all the typical tuning notes at their stated pitches (A,Bb&C. If anyone measures it, everything will be precise. Free Tuning apps are common these days. Often incorrectly read but commonly used by anybody, nonetheless. (with a well laid temperament this happens anyway).

I experiment all the time. I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes.

I can stretch to the max. Any fool can do that, most fools do as somebody has said. I can make a cogent argument that it might be best ( more reliably?) done by machine.

I have been elevated and called an ivory tower tuner but doesn't the tuner of domestic pianos have a duty get to know how to tune different ways when members of a musical family play other instruments that may be used in collaboration with the piano and still be within the bounds of ET.

I still want all my options open. Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that.

This week, I attended four masterclasses over the past two days given by principal players of the Berlin Phil. So I am highly elated. I attend orchestralasterclasses regularly, have done ever since I was involved with high level music education. mostly given by principals of international orchestras but this was something special.

Because of the last minute fly in fly out nature of these classes and the constant room usage, we had to use week old tunings with ten minute refinements on each at 440. Whenever the brass players demonstrated on their own instruments fresh out of their cases, they were beautifully in tune with the piano but when I heard them on TV tonight I didn't catch the tuning note but they were an average of 15c sharp which indicates 444-operating pitch,( rarely the same as tuning pitch in any orchestra). I had to leave early in each case do I didn't get a chance to talk.

I am continually immersed in collaborative music making with the piano. I briefly checked the 10ths and 17's on a professionally tuned harp today by a top flight orchestral harpist. They were almost exactly the same size that I aim for in piano collaborative work. That is as narrow as practicable . I was there to refine the piano it was being used with and I had permission to check pitch. Normally it's the other way round, the piano is tuned before the harpists come in.

My point is, there is no one way to tune a piano. To attempt to condemn one method as archaic is to attempt to call what the Berlin Phil is doing as archaic. The principles are still the same as when I was studying music full time. In fact my joy today comes from that. (OK, there are those who condemn the whole concept of a symphony orchestra as archaic)

Beethoven to Wagner articulation for trumpets is tha same with the Berlin as I was taught fifty years ago. Most trumpet players currently adopt a sloppy imprecise style, even with major orchestras. I had a long discussion about this with a well known conductor, being careful not to reference a recent recording where this was evident.

Thats what makes the Berlin so great. Calling something archaic in this way is a perjorative use of the word that can easily be overlooked when answering. Same with unreliable. Unreliable for what? As I have said and you have quoted, a temperament is set with forethought to how it works with the rest of the piano. It helps to be familiar with the make and model of the piano and even the idiosyncracies of a particular piano such as the winding tensions of a particular set of bass strings. These things are noticed when tuning the same make and model every time and hopefully rembered for each piano.

Having said that, larger pianos are more similar fhan different and smaller pianos will develop this own optimum tuning If tuned regularly by the same conciencious tuner.

There. Another long post. Sorry. It wasn't a simple question



Hi rXd,

Thank you for your posts, I read them with care and could see myself in some of the things you said. In a way you have been reassuring, as I can share a fair part of the sceneries you describe,.. does getting old make us well experienced or, it is experience that makes us old? :-) I am joking.

Say the truth, you do not like the word 'archaic'. :-)

I used it with the meaning of "marked by the characteristics of an earlier period; no longer applicable", in light of temperament models of these days and addressing an issue that too often is put aside: we need to temper the whole piano. In our case, the 'principle' is not the same as it was in the past, temper an octave and expand by copying octaves, the principle now is different: temper the whole piano and use larger intervals (x,y) as a reference. I have nothing against traditions, be it music, dance, etc., though now we are experiencing a different concept: also intervals larger than an octave need to be tempered, and perhaps the octave does not need to be 2:1.

You may be right though, that question of mine was perhaps 'loaded', maybe I should have said "I think that a one_octave_temperament is archaic and unreliable nowadays, what do you think?".

You wrote:..."I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes."...

Hmm..., that is you today, but... what was it like when you started tuning? I hope we can help beginners and young tuners, those who are going through what we had to go through, help them with the right information, considered that perhaps a whole life (in this field) is not enough.

You wrote:..."Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that."...

I would have a question there, :-) am I allowed? I will be back and comment also your other post. Thank you for describing so many details.

Best Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/15 05:03 AM

I love all words. I love the word archaic in all it's connotations. How do you get these ideas on the likes and dislikes of another?

Again, you make inferences and then ask questions based on your inference or interpretation. What you are doing is questioning your own inferences. Those are questions nobody can answer. Only you can.

Your after the fact explanation of how you used archaic is not convincing because you coupled it with the words "and unreliable".

"Archaic" coupled with the words "and unreliable"? You rephrased your question but still coupled these two words.

I write in long and hopefully coherent thoughts. You take one sentence out of context and question your inference from it. Since when have tenths and sevemteenths, implying ther connection to the third, of course, automatically form a 2-1 octave? Yet that is what you infer. Are you not denying your own knowledge and intelligence in order to make the is outrageous assumption?

I just got thru saying that there are many options yet you attempt to pin me down to just one while you attempt to promote your one way. This is classic projection.

My advocacy of a complete and thorough familiarity with all the interactions within a chosen temperament range you challenge as somehow not helping students. Would you teach chess without advocacy of mastering all the interconnected moves?

Every statement you make is of this nature. My words are taken with no thought to earlier contexts. Is it your memory, your comprehension or, maybe your agenda is overriding your intelligence. Why else would you attempt to revive your own dead or dormant thread in this deceitful and devious way if it weren't to keep your pet project alive when all others have long ago lost interest and abandoned it?

My posts from other threads have been used many times now in this abusive way to resurrect your capital threads from twelve months of obscurity . I notice nobody else has responded to your attempts at resurrection. Only I feel the need to correct your glaring misapprehensions. Only because it is exclusively my posts that you are taking, literally, out of context. To put it plainly, taking my post from another thread (context) and using them in each case, to bring back "life" your own agenda. By the notable absence of other posters here, nobody is interested. Least of all me. Let these posts die peacefully. As of right now.

I have been very patient with you, even overlooked your abusive and puerile name calling.

If this happens again, I shall refer the matter directly to the moderators for some sort of action. It is patently an abuse of the forums. Not only what you do but the way in which you repeatedly do it.

Maybe I should be flattered by the attention but I find it quite creepy.

I am grateful for the experience in dealing with cybercreepies on line in preparation for if I ever meet them in real life. So far I've managed to avoid them.

If other aspects of your life include stalking like this, it certainly adds credence to the option on these forums to be and remain anonymous.

Now. Either present your own fresh approach to keep your threads alive or let them die peacefully before I lose my patience.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/15 06:54 PM


Hi,

Back to what I would like to investigate, about which I wrote three days ago.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.


I got some help and hope to be able to share some progress.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/15 08:50 PM

Do you mean, for example:

Tune A5 to A4 coming from above and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch A at A5.
Tune A5 to A4 coming from below and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch B at A5.
What is the difference between pitch A and pitch B?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 02/18/15 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Do you mean, for example:

Tune A5 to A4 coming from above and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch A at A5.
Tune A5 to A4 coming from below and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch B at A5.
What is the difference between pitch A and pitch B?


Yes, Chris, that is one type of test we could do, although we might be exposed to a variable, i.e. "when the octave first sounds beatless". That is why I was mentioning a non-aural device.

In the above case, we would then compare two pitches, pitch A and pitch B.

A second test might focus onto the partials, measuring how the individual tone's partials end up being spaced.

In this second case, together with A4(-A5), we may consider one more 'bottom pitch', say F4(-A5), or a note further down for a wider interval, like D4 or F3, and perhaps test the 'above/below' combinations between three pitchs and their partials' configuration?

Please, consider that I am in the "I wonder.." zone.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 07/02/17 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Alfredo,

Yes, I would like you to try putting it into words. I'm not sure I can change habits that have been developed over 40 years (and that seem to work reasonably well) but it is always good to expand one's base of understanding.

Pwg


Hi,

the post above comes from this thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2644274/11.html

I am posting my reply here in order to keep some information together.

We were talking about "pin setting", Peter. Perhaps you have already found some info in this thread or elsewhere, in any case I will expand further and.. keep my word.

My experience started on very very old pianos, they were ready for refurbishing and then I could only deal with very loose pins. There I needed to rely on some forces that could be left onto the pin, and the feeling that the foot of the pin was in the ideal position.

The principle is different then, you do not move the pin to find the correct pitch, you actually pull the string to "set the pin". Reading/feeling the occurring forces while you are pulling the string, allows you to set the pin and, as a result, get the pitch you wanted.

The execution is fairly straightforward, in the best case - nice pin-pin-block-string rendering - it is one move only CW, one move CCW.

You can start pulling the pin where you find it, or loose the pin CCW and zero old tensions.
Start pulling the string CW, feel the torsion and the bending taking place while you figure out where the spot is. That is all the information you need and you can now over-pull the string CW.

The latter move refers to a precise amount of forces that you will have read/felt - pin bending, torsion and rotation + string rendering - and that now you want to invert.

We may say that the above sequence is "tuning the pin", what comes next is "setting the pin-string system".

You go CCW, perhaps putting the hammer in a different angle, do not rush and consider that matter adjusts in time, release all the CW forces and "charge" or load the pin with CCW forces, enough to re-find the spot you heard before, making sure that the pin and the string are now pulling each other in opposite direction, making a tight-united system, where the pin is more willing to pull the string - check that a tiny CW force would raise the pitch - than ready to give.

As mentioned, make sure that about 3/10 points of force CW would sharpen the pitch, against about 7/10 points of CCW forces for lowering the pitch.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Kind regards,

a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/18/17 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Kees,

There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. I am not addressing basic notions, whole tone octave purity, or iH as it is understood. I was trying to reason on beat perception in order to understand whether Bernhard, while mentioning pure 12ths, is actually achieving close to pure 12ths.

This interest of mine comes from a recent conversation I had with Kent where, mentioning pure 12ths, he would suggest to call them "clean" 12ths.

And because Bernhard has mentioned "minimum_overall beating", I wonder how that beating sounds to him, if wide or narrow.

Perhaps some differences in our practice become significant, for instance tuning mid-strings first on a wide range, which allows the tuning of perfectly still/beat-less 12ths (as demonstrated recently at a convention in Canada) or unisons as you go, but beyond that, I wonder what is left there of an original (edit: theoretical) pure-interval strech scheme.

Apologies for some background noise.
.


Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

for instance tuning mid-strings first on a wide range, which allows the tuning of perfectly still/beat-less 12ths (as demonstrated recently at a convention in Canada)


Dear Alfredo,

this is the goal with pure twelfths.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

And because Bernhard has mentioned "minimum_overall beating", I wonder how that beating sounds to him, if wide or narrow.
Minimal overall beating means clean to me. I use that description (minimum overall beating) to make clear that if speaking of a pure or clear interval on a piano, there are generally all but at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency, but are tuned to a target, where they sound perfectly clean, still, beat-less, same as you possibly demonstrated successfully in Canada.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Perhaps some differences in our practice become significant, for instance tuning mid-strings first on a wide range, which allows the tuning of perfectly still/beat-less 12ths (as demonstrated recently at a convention in Canada) or unisons as you go, but beyond that, I wonder what is left there of an original (edit: theoretical) pure-interval strech scheme.


I see a serious gap between what you do in practice (essentially a pure twelfths temperament) and what you have theoretically build around about that as Chas theory:

You tune pure twelfths on the middle string over a vast part of the piano (pure twelfths equal temperament).

On a second step you tune unisons and claim by pitch sagging or coupling of the tree strings the pitch drops exactly for the specific amount that after tuning the unisons, the resulting twelfths are exactly of Chas twelfths size.

This contradicts my understanding of the physical relativity principle.

- Think about the lower note when tuning the unison, it drops too, right? If the dropping is the same, is the resulting twelfth logically not of the same size as before? Are you aware that pitch dropping from coupling does not occur on every note? How can you expect then that the resulting twelfth will land exactly on the Chas size twelfth, with your own claimed precision of 0.01 cts over an octave, that is required to be classified as a Chas interval?

- Let´s assume ideally that exactly the required pitch drop occurs from whatever effect, when starting with unison tuning : What will happen when tuning the unisons downward from the temperament region where the unisons are already tuned (and thus do not drop anymore): must not the lower note stay exactly where it was to obtain a Chas size twelfth? Or let´s assume the upper note dropped only half the amount required to obtain a Chas size twelfth: Must not climb the lower note toward the upper note then?

- Let´s proceed with finishing unisons upwards from the temperament region in the treble on the first twelfth above the temperament twelfth (i.e. D3-A4), AFTER completing the unisons over the temperament twelfth. If the pitch dropped over all notes by unison tuning in the temperament twelfth, all twelfths of the middle string in the second twelfth section above the temperament are wider of pure of an amount of the pitch drop of the notes of the temperament twelfth. Must not the notes drop then two times the pitch drop of the temperament twelfth to obtain a Chas size twelfth? And must not the notes in the twelfth above the second twelfth above the temperament twelfth drop three times the amount of the drop in the middle region?

Frankly, to me your concept of obtaining a Chas tuning by tuning unisons from pure twelfths temperament on the middle string is wishful thinking. What you get after tuning unisons after a pure twelfth temperament on the middle strings instead is more or less a pure twelfths temperament (which as a result sound wise is not wrong at all wink.

If you want a Chas tuning, you may preferrably do something Bill Bremmer does with mindless octaves, what would probably represent more a Chas tuning than your actual approach.


Hi,

A few considerations based on Bernhard’s recent comments. Hope this can clarify some points, also for other colleagues, before it gets… confusing. I have moved this reply from Toni's thread for obvious reasons. The original thread is here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2670882/10.html

I wrote…”Perhaps some differences in our practice become significant, for instance tuning mid-strings first on a wide range, which allows the tuning of perfectly still/beat-less 12ths”…

Bernhard, you replied: “..this is the goal with pure twelfths.” …

Now, the goal for you, correct me if I am wrong, seems to be “minimum overall beating” 12ths all across the keyboard. My own goal, Bernhard, is to tune a beat-curve that may anticipate any pitch drop. We may have to tune pure 12ths or pure 5ths at some points, that - for me - depends on the individual piano.

I believe that our experience takes us onto different observations. Depending on the piano, I may decide to tune pure or close_to_pure 12ths in some ranges and compensate for a possible pitch sagging. Considering that, every time I need to tune pure 12ths on middle strings, the end result is what I like, i.e. 12ths with a minimum narrow beating. Later on you will understand how.

I wrote: ..” And because Bernhard has mentioned "minimum_overall beating", I wonder how that beating sounds to him, if wide or narrow.”

You replied: ..” Minimal overall beating means clean to me.”…

Also to me, though “clean” simply does not mean “pure” (to me). And it is not clear whether you hear narrow-beating or wide-beating. Perhaps for you that does not really matter?

… ”I use that description (minimum overall beating) to make clear that if speaking of a pure or clear interval on a piano, there are generally all but at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency, but are tuned to a target, where they sound perfectly clean, still, beat-less, same as you possibly demonstrated successfully in Canada.”…

For me “minimum overall beating” cannot be represented by a “pure” stretch scheme. Strange how you do not get this contradiction in terms, and when we say "clean" it sounds so vague, to the point that an "overall beating" might sound "clean" subjectively, without being objectively "minimum".

For me there is a difference that can be heard distinctly on centre strings, pure is pure, i.e. still, perfectly beat-less, something I demonstrate on centre strings; “clean” meaning “minimum overall beating”, think of it, could also apply to the pure 5ths stretch scheme, in fact aren’t “clean” 5ths nice as well? Aren't we all targeting "clean" octaves, clean 5ths and clean 12ths? Can they all be " pure" at once?

Hence my question, if there is “..at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency..”, why talking about pure intervals? Wasn’t it understood that any “pure” interval would go to the detriment of all the other intervals?

In my practice, very luckily 12ths will be as I like them after unisons - and other intervals will not sound sour (hopefully) – “clean” 12ths, sure, on the narrow side, and clean 5ths too. If I demonstrate (and mention) pure 12ths on middle strings in a specific range, it is in order to show how we can use that check and have control over the tuning curve and settlings.

You wrote: … ”I see a serious gap between what you do in practice (essentially a pure twelfths temperament) and what you have theoretically build around about that as Chas theory:.”...

Let’s see.

…” You tune pure twelfths on the middle string over a vast part of the piano (pure twelfths equal temperament).” …

The part of the piano is not really vast, and the tuning curve will be a bit steeper of some degree for all intervals, not only 12ths. In proximity of / in the range C5-C6 we may need to tune 12ths very “clean” or even pure, as I say, depending on the piano.

… “On a second step you tune unisons and claim by pitch sagging or coupling of the tree strings the pitch drops exactly for the specific amount that after tuning the unisons, the resulting twelfths are exactly of Chas twelfths size.” …

The end_tuning_beats for all intervals need to be anticipated, and of course this requires some experience. But it is handy: while we do unisons we have plenty of intervals that we can check and that actually tell us how the individual piano is reacting, as we go. Then we can still adjust the tuning curve and make sure that our target is always in the viewfinder.

What is weird for me, in these days, is the idea of tuning “clean” 12ths with a spanner, for instance, and expect that - at the end of the tuning - all the intervals progress harmoniously. I would see no point in gaining one single “pure” interval out of “brute force”, octaves, 12ths or whatever, for how important it is to interlace all intervals, as in a whole. You can surely tune with a spanner but the progressions, in my experience, will all be broken.

You mention “whole tone purity”, you go for “clean” 12ths but you support a “pure” scheme. Isn’t this a bit odd?

… “Frankly, to me your concept of obtaining a Chas tuning by tuning unisons from pure twelfths temperament on the middle string is wishful thinking.” …

Yes, it would be, I agree, if things were as you describe them, but they are not. I thank you for being frank, this is how we can progress faster.

12ths can well serve as a reference when we expand the temperament, as much as many other intervals, I hope they will never get "unapproachable" wink

… “What you get after tuning unisons after a pure twelfth temperament on the middle strings instead is more or less a pure twelfths temperament (which as a result sound wise is not wrong at all smile .” …

Please note, I speak about 12ths that are really pure, when and where it is the case. In my experience, what we get at the end of our tuning does not depend on one single interval (how strange that I have to say this here), it will depend on how carefully we temper the first octave, on how carefully we expand the temperament, and on how carefully we check the “temporary” results, while tempering, while expanding and while we execute the unisons.

On Chas theory, as soon as I have some time.

Bernhard (and All) please do not hesitate to let me know if you would like me to expand further.

Kind regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 08:48 AM

Again this talk of sagging pitches.

If you are referring to the so called wenreich effect, this can so easily be dealt with as, when and if it appears by simply tuning from completed unisons. 3-10-17 as you go becomes second nature, particularly when, as all pro tuners have to occasionally, you are in a noisy environment . You will soon spot anything and everything that is the least suspect usually in the tenth as you are comparing the 3rd and the 17th.

Not "clever" enough for you?

Twelfths will either look after themselves if the fifths are secure or, since you tell us that you, personally, can't tell whether they are wide or narrow, (you could if you used the external checks) what's this whole thing about if you aren't at some level projecting your own problems onto others?

If, as some would have it, the resonance is increased with puréed 12ths. Why doesn't the increased resonance tell you how accurate the twelfth is? It just might when you stop worrying it. Dogs have been shot for less.

Of course you do know that worrying a string will heat up the bearing points and also destabilise it.



Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


You mention “whole tone purity”, you go for “clean” 12ths but you support a “pure” scheme. Isn’t this a bit odd?


I find it odd to find this odd.

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by rXd
I had thought when this stuff first started that it was harmless crackpot stuff ..

In my opinion C.HA.S.^(R) theory is total nonsense, based on a lack of understanding of basic piano physics, in particular inharmonicity.

Kees


Not only inharmonicity. There seems to be a lack of understanding of the basics of interval beating in different ET sizes as well. ET´s without iH (s=0 as Alfredo says) progress with all intervals perfectly, no matter what ET-size is choosen (except if a pure interval was selected as base interval where this interval would be beatless throughout the scale.) I figured out already in a review of Alfredo´s paper when he came up with his theory some years ago here, that he did not understand this basic principle, as he claimed that only in Chas ET all intervals do progress. Seems he refused to understand these basics within the time that has gone since.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by rXd

Again this talk of sagging pitches.

If you are referring to the so called wenreich effect, this can so easily be dealt with as, when and if it appears by simply tuning from completed unisons. 3-10-17 as you go becomes second nature, particularly when, as all pro tuners have to occasionally, you are in a noisy environment . You will soon spot anything and everything that is the least suspect usually in the tenth as you are comparing the 3rd and the 17th.

Not "clever" enough for you?

Twelfths will either look after themselves if the fifths are secure or, since you tell us that you, personally, can't tell whether they are wide or narrow, (you could if you knew the external checks) what's this whole thing about if you aren't at some level projecting your own problems onto others?

If, as some would have it, the resonance is increased with puréed 12ths. Why doesn't the increased resonance tell you how accurate the twelfth is? It just might when you stop worrying it. Dogs have been shot for less.

Of course you do know that worrying a string will heat up the bearing points and also destabilise it.





Rxd, I do not have any problem with 12ths, accuracy, interval checks, resonance or else. Thanks for checking.

..."..since you tell us that you, personally, can't tell whether they are wide or narrow..."...

You misunderstood. In Toni's thread I was actually asking Bernhard if he could tell us anything about the "minimum overall beating" he was talking about, whether it would be heard as narrow beating or wide. We got no reply on that, he just said that there will be ..."..at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency..".

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


You mention “whole tone purity”, you go for “clean” 12ths but you support a “pure” scheme. Isn’t this a bit odd?


I find it odd to find this odd.

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by rXd
I had thought when this stuff first started that it was harmless crackpot stuff ..

In my opinion C.HA.S.^(R) theory is total nonsense, based on a lack of understanding of basic piano physics, in particular inharmonicity.

Kees


Not only inharmonicity. There seems to be a lack of understanding of the basics of interval beating in different ET sizes as well. ET´s without iH (s=0 as Alfredo says) progress with all intervals perfectly, no matter what ET-size is choosen. I figured out already in a review of Alfredo´s paper when he came up with his theory some years ago here, that he did not understand this basic principle, as he claimed that only in Chas ET all intervals do progress. Seems he refused to understand these basics within the time that has gone since.


I do not think I have ever stated that "..only in Chas ET all intervals do progress".

Oh, Bernhard, the basic Chas algorithm version is with s = 1

Time has passed, this is true, apparently you need some more.

Arguments, gentlemen. Otherwise, you could start your own thread and denigrate as much as you like.

Regards, a.c.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Oh, Bernhard, the basic Chas algorithm version is with s = 1


typo, sorry.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think I have ever stated that "..only in Chas ET all intervals do progress".



Ok i see a need to precise this. You stated that in Chas ET intervals progress.
In your tractat you presented some other ET then, where fifths or other intervals invert at some point.
This is factually wrong with no iH or s=1

My guess is, that this misunderstanding (that intervals do invert in some ETs which are not Chas) leads you the interpretation, that after tuning pure twelfths on the middle string, they get progressively smaller after tuning the unisons.

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Oh, Bernhard, the basic Chas algorithm version is with s = 1


typo, sorry.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think I have ever stated that "..only in Chas ET all intervals do progress".



Ok i see a need to precise this. You stated that in Chas ET intervals progress.
In your tractat you presented some other ET then, where fifths or other intervals invert at some point.
This is factually wrong with no iH or s=1

My guess is, that this misunderstanding (that intervals do invert in some ETs which are not Chas) leads you the interpretation, that after tuning pure twelfths on the middle string, they get progressively smaller after tuning the unisons.



No other ET was discussed, if not marginally, in the Chas paper, I would then say that your guess is wrong.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


No other ET were discussed, if not marginally, in the Chas paper, I would then say that your guess is wrong.



I quote from your initial paper page 76 (http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf
):

"f in a semitonal logarithmic scale we wanted to fa
vour partial 5, we would have to take
value 5 and position 12+12+4 = ordinal 28, so the f
ormula will be
5^(1/28) =
1.059164008
...In this scale, as incremental ratio of degree 9 of
the
scale (element 14),
we find the 5^(1/2) component of the gold section.
In distances of octaves, (5*2)^(1/40),
(10*2)^(1/52) etc. this ratio modifies towards
2^(1/12).

If in a different logarithmic scale, we wanted to f
avour partial 3 we would have to take
value 3 and position 12+7 = ordinal 19, so the form
ula will be
3^(1/19) =
1.059526065
... This ratio, too, in distances of octaves, (3*2)^(
1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
modifies towards 2^(1/12).
The formula 2^(1/12), at distances of octaves (posi
tion+12) does not change: 4^(1/24) =
8^(1/36) = 16^(1/48) =
1.059463094.."

You mentioned pure twelfth ET explicitely, and claimed that this ratio modifies towards 2^(12) which is pure nonsense. The correct octave in pure twelfth is not (3*2)^(
1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
but correctly 3^(1/19), 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19) etc.

My guess seems indeed right, just from your misinterpretation of pure twelfth temperament beat rates you falsely came to the conclusion that pure twelfths converges to smaller twelfths when finishing the unisons.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 08:32 PM


Bernhard,

Frankly, I do not understand what is wrong there. But even if something were wrong, it would have nothing to do with my observations from tuning practice.

In fact, I consider theory and practice separately as much as I can, you may have well noticed that.

Your guess on unisons, again, is banal and simply wrong.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Bernhard,

Frankly, I do not understand what is wrong there. But even if something were wrong, it would have nothing to do with my observations from tuning practice.



If you don´t understand what is wrong there, i can´t help you further. There are serious scientists who noticed what your theory is (many thanks to professor Kees van den Doel).
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 09:32 PM


lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/19/17 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.


.


If the frog notice that the water is hot, it is too late to jump out.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 12:54 AM

Since C.H.A.S. isn't really about tuning a real piano, I don't think this link is really OT. Some of you will understand:

Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Is this supposed to add credibility?

The self-published article "HARMONIOUS PROPORTIONS IN A PIANOFORTE - THE C.HA.S.® TEMPERAMENT" with author listed as "Professor Nicola Chiriano", who is actually a high-school teacher if you Google him, starts off with this first sentence:

"In 1691 the German organist Andreas
Werckmeister discovered an ingenious
way of tuning instruments, the closest
ever achieved to an equal temperament
[1], that is to say, to a tone system where
the distance between semitones (two
successive notes in the chromatic scale)
is constant."

which is nonsense. He then goes on to describe Werckmeister, but gets the number of narrow fifths (4, not 5) wrong, as well as the amount by which they are narrow (1/4 of a Pythagorean comma, not 1/4' of a syntonic comma).

After that it is stated that "Werckmeister’s scale was extremely successful because of J. S. Bach’s use of it in his “Well-tempered Clavichord”" which is also nonsense.

That was just the first paragraph...

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.


.


If the frog notice that the water is hot, it is too late to jump out.


Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think I have ever stated that "..only in Chas ET all intervals do progress".

Oh, Bernhard, the basic Chas algorithm version is with s = 1

Time has passed, this is true, apparently you need some more.

Arguments, gentlemen. Otherwise, you could start your own thread and denigrate as much as you like.

Regards, a.c.





That saying fits the case: your guess was wrong, so you attack the theory... lol
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


No other ET were discussed, if not marginally, in the Chas paper, I would then say that your guess is wrong.



I quote from your initial paper page 76 (http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf
):
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

"f in a semitonal logarithmic scale we wanted to fa
vour partial 5, we would have to take
value 5 and position 12+12+4 = ordinal 28, so the f
ormula will be
5^(1/28) =
1.059164008
...In this scale, as incremental ratio of degree 9 of
the
scale (element 14),
we find the 5^(1/2) component of the gold section.
In distances of octaves, (5*2)^(1/40),
(10*2)^(1/52) etc. this ratio modifies towards
2^(1/12).

If in a different logarithmic scale, we wanted to f
avour partial 3 we would have to take
value 3 and position 12+7 = ordinal 19, so the form
ula will be
3^(1/19) =
1.059526065
... This ratio, too, in distances of octaves, (3*2)^(
1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
modifies towards 2^(1/12).
The formula 2^(1/12), at distances of octaves (posi
tion+12) does not change: 4^(1/24) =
8^(1/36) = 16^(1/48) =
1.059463094.."


You mentioned pure twelfth ET explicitely, and claimed that this ratio modifies towards 2^(12) which is pure nonsense. The correct octave in pure twelfth is not (3*2)^(
1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
but correctly 3^(1/19), 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19) etc.

My guess seems indeed right, just from your misinterpretation of pure twelfth temperament beat rates you falsely came to the conclusion that pure twelfths converges to smaller twelfths when finishing the unisons.


I have to correct a typo in my statement:
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

You mentioned pure twelfth ET explicitely, and claimed that this ratio modifies towards 2^(12) which is pure nonsense. The correct octave in pure twelfth is not (3*2)^(
1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
but correctly 3^(1/19), 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19) etc.

should be:
"You mentioned pure twelfth ET explicitely, and claimed that this ratio modifies towards 2^(12) which is pure nonsense. The correct octave in pure twelfth is not (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc,
but correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc."

So to sum up again: My guess is that exactly this wrong model about pure twelfth ET that you have in mind is what leads you to the wrong guess that a pure twelfth ET over the whole piano can shrink to a Chas ET just by tuning unisons, which is not possible (i second also what Amanda had to say about pitch sagging) if there is no pitch raise, as every twelfth would need to shrink by 1,23 cents (the difference between a pure twelfth ET twelfth and a Chas twelfth), this required shrink would even increase linearly with every stacked twelfth, as i was figuring out with my questions earlier. The truth for me is, that in your tuning practice you are selling something else (a pure 12th ET temperament) under a wrong label (Chas theory).
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.


.


If the frog notice that the water is hot, it is too late to jump out.


Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think I have ever stated that "..only in Chas ET all intervals do progress".

Oh, Bernhard, the basic Chas algorithm version is with s = 1

Time has passed, this is true, apparently you need some more.

Arguments, gentlemen. Otherwise, you could start your own thread and denigrate as much as you like.

Regards, a.c.





That saying fits the case: your guess was wrong, so you attack the theory... lol
.


I don´t see what is wrong in attacking a wrong theory.
Arguments please. Only saying my guess is wrong isn´t an argument. In my view my guess is proven as it correlates with the wrong model you have in mind about pure twelfths ET (not only about pure twelfths ET, but also the pure thirds ET model you mentioned in the same section. This proves to me that there is a lack of understanding of the basics of equal temperaments). The misinterpretation of ET is what makes you believe that Chas ET is superior over other ones. This of course needs some attack.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 08:03 AM


Pathetic.

As for "lack of understanding", let us know whether the "minimum overall beating" you hear is narrow beating or wide.

Lol
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Pathetic.

As for "lack of understanding", let us know whether the "minimum overall beating" you hear is narrow beating or wide.

Lol


I should not answer with that additional laughter but if this is just your intention or if it helps to evaporate your frustration, so i will do anyway. I just ask you politely to leave out such emotions. I have nothing against you personally, nor do i find anything wrong with your Chas stepsize, nor do i question your skills as a professional tuner.

I just correct what is objectively erroneous in your interpretations in ET´s in general and your conclusions from this wrong interpretations to what happens when tuning unisons. I agree that when you tune your unisons over the previously tuned pure twelfths on the middle strings, that you hear a beating in the twelfths then from not so perfect still tuned unisons. Did not talk Isaac Oleg about your "smiley" unisons? I have to agree that if one does not tune unisons as still as possible, the resulting interval tuned pure on single strings before can´t be pure anymore with full tuned (smiled) unisons by nature. (Amanda was addressing this too already with octaves) But this does not cramp the whole tuning into another ET size in the magnitude you need to transform pure 12ths ET into Chas ET.

So now to your question: Neither narrow nor wide, just right, as pure as possible aurally. Beating alone does not indicate if an interval beats wide or narrow. This does not mean that an educated and experienced tuner can´t hear if a beating interval is narrow or wide, but then other interpretation skills are involved beside interval beating alone.

Now would you please address the erroneously interpretation of ETs in your paper.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 10:01 AM


Bernhard,

You come up with more guessing, now on the quality of my unisons. You may be an expert of emotions, please understand that if I laugh it is for the absurdities you come up with. Check my unisons in one of many recordings available in the Web and let me know.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Bernhard,

You come up with more guessing, now on the quality of my unisons. You may be an expert of emotions, please understand that if I laugh it is for the absurdities you come up with. Check my unisons in one of many recordings available in the Web and let me know.


I do not question your unisons. I was quoting what Isaac Oleg said about them. (Patrick Wingren too btw). They say they are beautiful. I do not question this. I was also commenting your tunings that they are fine some years ago. (No wonder for me, as pure 12ths on middle strings is the base of the tuning). You call objective facts as absurdities when i address objectively wrong claims. But you refuse to debate them seriously.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 11:19 AM


Guess, Bernhard, I am working right now. I shall tell you more, do not rush your conclusions, just wait.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/20/17 10:47 PM


Bernhard,

The first thing I need to say is that you seem to be obsessed with "pure" 12ths, never mind if you notice a "minimum overall beating" that makes the 12th not pure, but "clean". lol

Perhaps as a result of your obsession, you believe that I confuse the tuning I do with a "pure" 12ths tuning where 12ths, you say, would necessarily exhibit a "minimum overall beating". Here, again, you are wrong: when I tune, if the 12ths, the15ths and all the other intervals exhibit a specific "beating" is because I am "drawing" a specific tuning curve, do you understand this? Not one single interval, but all intervals as in a whole. You cannnot do that with a spanner, nor can you have me say that I like a pure-12th tuning, as RBIs sound too "salty" to me, and so off-putting.

You wrote: …” ..You tune pure twelfths on the middle string over a vast part of the piano.."..

As mentioned in a previous post, that is, again, wrong. Go back to that post and see how many wrong conclusions you had come to, only two days ago:

#2676140 - September 18, 2017 10:41 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]

In the post above I omitted your final suggestion:

..."If you want a Chas tuning, you may preferrably do something Bill Bremmer does with mindless octaves, what would probably represent more a Chas tuning than your actual approach."...

At that stage, yours could not be ignorance, as in a previous post, in Toni's thread, I had well explained why Bill's method for tuning octaves, like with a double spanner, has nothing to do with my own practice, nor with an ET stretch scheme such as pure 26ths.

You then wrote: ..."..There seems to be a lack of understanding of the basics of interval beating in different ET sizes as well. ET´s without iH (s=0 as Alfredo says) progress with all intervals perfectly, no matter what ET-size is choosen (except if a pure interval was selected as base interval where this interval would be beatless throughout the scale.)..."...

The above is nonsense.

And ..."..I figured out already in a review of Alfredo´s paper when he came up with his theory some years ago here, that he did not understand this basic principle, as he claimed that only in Chas ET all intervals do progress."...

The above is wrong again, I never stated what you wrote.

And then you wrote: ..."..In your tractat you presented some other ET then, where fifths or other intervals invert at some point. This is factually wrong with no iH or s=1"...

The above is false.

..."..My guess is, that this misunderstanding (that intervals do invert in some ETs which are not Chas) leads you the interpretation, that after tuning pure twelfths on the middle string, they get progressively smaller after tuning the unisons."...

That was your guess, hilarious.

And you wrote: ..."..My guess seems indeed right, just from your misinterpretation of pure twelfth temperament beat rates you falsely came to the conclusion that pure twelfths converges to smaller twelfths when finishing the unisons."...

The above was even more hilarious.

And more: ..."..There are serious scientists who noticed what your theory is (many thanks to professor Kees van den Doel)"...

Well, It sounds like you and the Professor you cite have already understood everything.

Then you corrected a typo in your statemement and wrote: ..."..So to sum up again: My guess is that exactly this wrong model about pure twelfth ET that you have in mind is what leads you to the wrong guess that a pure twelfth ET over the whole piano can shrink to a Chas ET just by tuning unisons,..."...

I had already said that that is not the case, in fact I do not tune "..a pure twelfth ET over the whole piano..", that is wrong, again, and you do not seem to acknowledge what I say and what I do.

..."..which is not possible (i second also what Amanda had to say about pitch sagging) if there is no pitch raise, as every twelfth would need to shrink by 1,23 cents (the difference between a pure twelfth ET twelfth and a Chas twelfth)"...

On a real piano there is not exact number, you need to check what is going on... as you go.

..."..leads you to the wrong guess that a pure twelfth ET over the whole piano can shrink to a Chas ET just by tuning unisons,..."...

I have already explained how we need to check the whole tuning curve, 12ths and all intervals, even while we are tuning unisons.

..."..which is not possible (i second also what Amanda had to say about pitch sagging) if there is no pitch raise, as every twelfth would need to shrink by 1,23 cents (the difference between a pure twelfth ET twelfth and a Chas twelfth).."...

On a real piano there is not exact number, you need to check what is going on... as you go.

So, your idea: ..." The truth for me is, that in your tuning practice you are selling something else (a pure 12th ET temperament) under a wrong label (Chas theory)."...

I hope you understand why that is still hilarious.

Today you wrote: ..."In my view my guess is proven as it correlates with the wrong model you have in mind about pure twelfths ET (not only about pure twelfths ET, but also the pure thirds ET model you mentioned in the same section. This proves to me that there is a lack of understanding of the basics of equal temperaments)."...

You may need to re-read that section more carefully.

..."..The misinterpretation of ET is what makes you believe that Chas ET is superior over other ones."...

Never said that the Chas harmonic temperament is superior, I am careful with that and always talk about "my favorite tuning". The Chas ratio tempers all intervals, no interval is "pure". Chas describes a whole, a purely "non-pure" whole. Perhaps you would say "clean".

..."..This of course needs some attack."...

Yes, of course lol

And you wrote: ..."..I have nothing against you personally, nor do i find anything wrong with your Chas stepsize,.."...

I see, you stated that you know what Chas "...theory is (many thanks to professor Kees van den Doel)", but you find there is nothing wrong with the "Chas stepsize"?

..."..I just correct what is objectively erroneous in your interpretations in ET´s in general and your conclusions from this wrong interpretations to what happens when tuning unisons."...

From your wrong conjectures to the theorem that should explain my own "wrong interpretations"? Should I cry?

...".. I agree that when you tune your unisons over the previously tuned pure twelfths on the middle strings, that you hear a beating in the twelfths then from not so perfect still tuned unisons."...

Can I laugh?

..."..Did not talk Isaac Oleg about your "smiley" unisons? I have to agree that if one does not tune unisons as still as possible, the resulting interval tuned pure on single strings before can´t be pure anymore with full tuned (smiled) unisons by nature."...

I guess you ought to teach me how to tune unisons... lol. You cite Isaac Oleg but you do not remember his comments after we met in Paris. You can look for them somewhere in this forum.

..."..But this does not cramp the whole tuning into another ET size in the magnitude you need to transform pure 12ths ET into Chas ET."...

You said it, "..magnitude..", order of magnitudes, that is where you need to investigate a bit more.

..."..So now to your question: Neither narrow nor wide, just right, as pure as possible aurally."...

I see. I guess we started from different aural potentialities and you stopped when - to you - it seemed impossible.

..."..Beating alone does not indicate if an interval beats wide or narrow."...

Nonsense. In order to establish whether an interval beats wide or narrow, we have plenty of checks.

..."..This does not mean that an educated and experienced tuner can´t hear if a beating interval is narrow or wide, but then other interpretation skills are involved beside interval beating alone."...

You said it, "..other interpretation skills are involved..".

..."..I do not question your unisons. I was quoting what Isaac Oleg said about them. (Patrick Wingren too btw). They say they are beautiful. I do not question this."...

Read above, you understood that my unisons are not "..as still as possible..". lol

..."..I was also commenting your tunings that they are fine some years ago. (No wonder for me, as pure 12ths on middle strings is the base of the tuning)."...

You are wrong again. You are still in the "pure" mode, and yet you tune "clean". Please, do not abuse the word "pure" anymore. In that sense, the base of the tuning could be clean octaves, for those who have worked with octaves, or clean fifths, or clean 19ths, or 26ths. What is then (for me) "..the base of the tuning? It is thinking in terms of "base, height, depth and.. beat-timing", it won't be one single interval, but all intervals interlaced together.

Last, you wrote: ..."..You call objective facts as absurdities when i address objectively wrong claims. But you refuse to debate them seriously."

Conjectures, Bernhard, cannot be reported as "objective facts". As for that section, everything is fine numerically. Perhaps you misunderstood those results.

In any case, in order to abandon the idea of one "pure" interval and in order to work with smaller orders of magnitude, let me guess, I think you need another five years.

Cheers,

Alfredo
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 04:17 AM

Fact is, Alfredo does not understand the difference between a 3:1 and a 6:2 12th, let alone something in-between.

Kees
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 05:47 AM

Since we have access to such rarefied once in a lifetime expertise, will the combatants please colaborate on an answer for me.

Given that few new piano trios have been written by major composers over the last hundred years, the reason given is that the piano, as an instrument has become overpowering for violin and cello, one result is that Schoenberg has written for more powerful winds being combined with the weaker regions of the piano leading to flute and clarinet interacting in the fifth and sixth octaves while the piano part is written including the sixth and seventh octave. Simultaneously, bassoon in the second octave with piano in the first and second octave.
In the same program, Harrison Birtwistle, equally respected these days but more contemporary, has written for standard instrumentation, piano, violin, 'cello but using similar compositional techniques.

What would be the ideal stretch for this situation? Given the lack of iH in the winds and strings and this discussion has used a 0 iH model, Should I adjust the basic pitch in order to accommodate the instruments involved so that I have greater flexibility of stretch?

Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.
Posted By: BDB

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 06:57 AM

The amount of inharmonicity in most other instruments is overwhelmed by the lack of accuracy and stability in their pitch.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by rXd
Since we have access to such rarefied once in a lifetime expertise, will the combatants please colaborate on an answer for me.

Given that few new piano trios have been written by major composers over the last hundred years, the reason given is that the piano, as an instrument has become overpowering for violin and cello, one result is that Schoenberg has written for more powerful winds being combined with the weaker regions of the piano leading to flute and clarinet interacting in the fifth and sixth octaves while the piano part is written including the sixth and seventh octave. Simultaneously, bassoon in the second octave with piano in the first and second octave.
In the same program, Harrison Birtwistle, equally respected these days but more contemporary, has written for standard instrumentation, piano, violin, 'cello but using similar compositional techniques.

What would be the ideal stretch for this situation? Given the lack of iH in the winds and strings and this discussion has used a 0 iH model, Should I adjust the basic pitch in order to accommodate the instruments involved so that I have greater flexibility of stretch?

Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.


I was looking for well considered sound advice from the acknowledged international experts in the field but I will of course, this being a public forum, consider a well meaning best guess. I am talking about some of the finest musicians with refined breath control and fine well maintained reliable pianos. Not some smeary bleary saxophone player at two in the morning in an establishment where the pianos continually fall apart. wink
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by rXd
Since we have access to such rarefied once in a lifetime expertise, will the combatants please colaborate on an answer for me.

Given that few new piano trios have been written by major composers over the last hundred years, the reason given is that the piano, as an instrument has become overpowering for violin and cello, one result is that Schoenberg has written for more powerful winds being combined with the weaker regions of the piano leading to flute and clarinet interacting in the fifth and sixth octaves while the piano part is written including the sixth and seventh octave. Simultaneously, bassoon in the second octave with piano in the first and second octave.
In the same program, Harrison Birtwistle, equally respected these days but more contemporary, has written for standard instrumentation, piano, violin, 'cello but using similar compositional techniques.

What would be the ideal stretch for this situation? Given the lack of iH in the winds and strings and this discussion has used a 0 iH model, Should I adjust the basic pitch in order to accommodate the instruments involved so that I have greater flexibility of stretch?

Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.


I was looking for well considered sound advice from the acknowledged experts in the field but I will of course, this being a public forum, consider a well meaning best guess.


Sure, here is a guess. Just like the radio satisfied the need for the home piano, especially player pianos, (making them less and less popular) so too did quality recordings satisfy the need for small ensembles such as piano trios. Parlor music, where a small ensemble could fit into a home and a full orchestra could not, was replaced with hi-fi recordings and equipment.

Myself, I dislike piano trios. Only the piano is in tune... Somehow it is different with a large ensemble. The average pitch of the large sections seems to be better, or perhaps just indeterminate.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 02:04 PM

Amanda, Alfredo,
i´m at work right now, no response before week end from my side...
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I would like to dedicate this Topic to practical Chas ET aural tuning. In my hope, this may eventually help to gain Chas beating whole.

This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency. It is meant as the long-distance “handing on” of my approach, what may substitute a personal directioning of mine for sharing Chas Theory's Temperament.

Please, do not expect regular posting. I will most appreciate any kind of feedback from aural tuners and/or music involved people, through PM or e-mail. In this Topic then, we may talk about individual progress details.


Best regards, a.c.



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009) :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html


Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



...This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency...


May i remind you that you redirected us from Toni´s thread. (Now really off until weekend)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



...This thread is not intended for discussing different tunings or techniques, nor sequencies efficiency...


May i remind you that you redirected us from Toni´s thread. (Now really off until weekend)



I redirected you, Bernhard, since you sounded a bit confused about our practice.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Alfredo,

Yes, I would like you to try putting it into words. I'm not sure I can change habits that have been developed over 40 years (and that seem to work reasonably well) but it is always good to expand one's base of understanding.

Pwg


Hi,

the post above comes from this thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2644274/11.html

I am posting my reply here in order to keep some information together.

We were talking about "pin setting", Peter. Perhaps you have already found some info in this thread or elsewhere, in any case I will expand further and.. keep my word.

My experience started on very very old pianos, they were ready for refurbishing and then I could only deal with very loose pins. There I needed to rely on some forces that could be left onto the pin, and the feeling that the foot of the pin was in the ideal position.

The principle is different then, you do not move the pin to find the correct pitch, you actually pull the string to "set the pin". Reading/feeling the occurring forces while you are pulling the string, allows you to set the pin and, as a result, get the pitch you wanted.

The execution is fairly straightforward, in the best case - nice pin-pin-block-string rendering - it is one move only CW, one move CCW.

You can start pulling the pin where you find it, or loose the pin CCW and zero old tensions.
Start pulling the string CW, feel the torsion and the bending taking place while you figure out where the spot is. That is all the information you need and you can now over-pull the string CW.

The latter move refers to a precise amount of forces that you will have read/felt - pin bending, torsion and rotation + string rendering - and that now you want to invert.

We may say that the above sequence is "tuning the pin", what comes next is "setting the pin-string system".

You go CCW, perhaps putting the hammer in a different angle, do not rush and consider that matter adjusts in time, release all the CW forces and "charge" or load the pin with CCW forces, enough to re-find the spot you heard before, making sure that the pin and the string are now pulling each other in opposite direction, making a tight-united system, where the pin is more willing to pull the string - check that a tiny CW force would raise the pitch - than ready to give.

As mentioned, make sure that about 3/10 points of force CW would sharpen the pitch, against about 7/10 points of CCW forces for lowering the pitch.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Kind regards,

a.c.
.


Actually, ......

this thread was dead two years when Alberto resurrected it with the above post which has nothing whatever to do with preparatory tuning.
Alberto has a habit of taking other people's posts entirely out of context in order to dredge up his own old CHAZ stuff. He tried that with me only a page or two before this when the thread was four years old. Is this against some forum rule or other?

Now he has the nerve to lie about it

Doesn't that make him some kind of control freak?

It's very rude and manipulative. Stop it!!!

When Alberto feels embarrassed or cornered, he switches to another of his threads often in this manner it's amusing to observe.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/21/17 07:42 PM


lol
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/17 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol
Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.

This paper however does seem to support the idea that the optimal stretch should sacrifice the sacred octave in favor of the balanced 12th and 15th, and is not devoid of meaningful content.

Nevertheless I have some doubts about their conclusion, which is that it will sound better to stretch the octave (in a no IH case), by an amount which is between pure 12ths (Stopper tuning) and CHAS (in-between 12th and 15th) but is close to CHAS.

1) They assume the "entropy" which is a mathematical formula hypothesized to be relevant to human hearing should be minimal. It is not clear that this "entropy" is in fact doing that.

2) They model the piano as a set of fundamental frequencies, plus partials (n=2,3,4,..) which have energy that decreases exponentially with n, with a parameter called lambda which they guess. Clearly this does not cover most of the piano, for example in the tenor/bass, the fundamental is actually weaker than the partials.

3) When they compute and minimize the "entropy" using the partials of all notes, the solution is standard ET, with a perfect octave.

4) They then argue that the peaks in the Fourier spectrum (sharp peaks at the partials) should be replaced by wider peaks, widened by another parameter called sigma which is in cents. Then it is claimed that this is somehow related to the human frequency discrimination, which they set at the "realistic" value of 5 cents. This does not make much sense to me, as 0.5 cent difference is audible not directly, but as a change in beat rate of intervals.

Finally they find values for the tweak parameters of their unrealistic piano sound model (lambda and sigma) such that the entropy minimum is no longer at the perfect octave. The value they find is larger than the CHAS ratio, but not by much.

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.

Nevertheless, it is an interesting article which does support the idea of stretching the octave beyond what is required if you buy their assumptions.

Kees
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/17 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Since C.H.A.S. isn't really about tuning a real piano, I don't think this link is really OT. Some of you will understand:



Cast of Characters:

Tar Baby: C.H.A.S.

Fox: Alfredo

Bear: Bernard

Rabbit: Amanda

The rest of us are in the audience.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/17 10:15 PM

Quite funny, Jeff. Thanks.

If possible, you could post similar stuff in this other Chas thread:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2076930/Re:_C.HA.S._Model_-_Climates_a.html

In fact, I started this thread 'cos I would like to help others gain my favorite tuning.

And you can still tune your favorite tuning and perhaps avoid weighing this thread with whatever comes into your head.

I would guess that the rabbit is you, why would you still be here?

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/22/17 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol
Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.

This paper however does seem to support the idea that the optimal stretch should sacrifice the sacred octave in favor of the balanced 12th and 15th, and is not devoid of meaningful content.

Nevertheless I have some doubts about their conclusion, which is that it will sound better to stretch the octave (in a no IH case), by an amount which is between pure 12ths (Stopper tuning) and CHAS (in-between 12th and 15th) but is close to CHAS.

1) They assume the "entropy" which is a mathematical formula hypothesized to be relevant to human hearing should be minimal. It is not clear that this "entropy" is in fact doing that.

2) They model the piano as a set of fundamental frequencies, plus partials (n=2,3,4,..) which have energy that decreases exponentially with n, with a parameter called lambda which they guess. Clearly this does not cover most of the piano, for example in the tenor/bass, the fundamental is actually weaker than the partials.

3) When they compute and minimize the "entropy" using the partials of all notes, the solution is standard ET, with a perfect octave.

4) They then argue that the peaks in the Fourier spectrum (sharp peaks at the partials) should be replaced by wider peaks, widened by another parameter called sigma which is in cents. Then it is claimed that this is somehow related to the human frequency discrimination, which they set at the "realistic" value of 5 cents. This does not make much sense to me, as 0.5 cent difference is audible not directly, but as a change in beat rate of intervals.

Finally they find values for the tweak parameters of their unrealistic piano sound model (lambda and sigma) such that the entropy minimum is no longer at the perfect octave. The value they find is larger than the CHAS ratio, but not by much.

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.

Nevertheless, it is an interesting article which does support the idea of stretching the octave beyond what is required if you buy their assumptions.

Kees


Hi Kees,

Thank you for sharing your opinion on Professor Haye Hinrichsen's paper.

If possible, please restore the original quote, I have never written lol above that link.

You wrote :... "This paper however does seem to support the idea that the optimal stretch should sacrifice the sacred octave in favor of the balanced 12th and 15th, and is not devoid of meaningful content."...

I agree, though I do not see "..balanced 12th and 15th.." mentioned in that paper.

..."..Nevertheless I have some doubts about their conclusion, which is that it will sound better to stretch the octave (in a no IH case), by an amount which is between pure 12ths (Stopper tuning) and CHAS (in-between 12th and 15th) but is close to CHAS."...

The amount of stretch, according to those figures, seems to be closer to pure 26ths than Chas (from my calculations).

..."..1) They assume the "entropy" which is a mathematical formula hypothesized to be relevant to human hearing should be minimal. It is not clear that this "entropy" is in fact doing that."...

I believe they got some encouraging feedback from the Entropy Piano Tuner.

..."..2) They model the piano as a set of fundamental frequencies, plus partials (n=2,3,4,..) which have energy that decreases exponentially with n, with a parameter called lambda which they guess. Clearly this does not cover most of the piano, for example in the tenor/bass, the fundamental is actually weaker than the partials."...

They were addressing non-iH tones, a piano is a different thing.

..."..3) When they compute and minimize the "entropy" using the partials of all notes, the solution is standard ET, with a perfect octave."...

Yes, we may also say that that result depends on one parameter.

..."..4) They then argue that the peaks in the Fourier spectrum (sharp peaks at the partials) should be replaced by wider peaks, widened by another parameter called sigma which is in cents. Then it is claimed that this is somehow related to the human frequency discrimination, which they set at the "realistic" value of 5 cents. This does not make much sense to me, as 0.5 cent difference is audible not directly, but as a change in beat rate of intervals."...

I remember that they changed some parameters, but the results were robust, meaning that they didn't change significantly.

..."..Finally they find values for the tweak parameters of their unrealistic piano sound model (lambda and sigma) such that the entropy minimum is no longer at the perfect octave. The value they find is larger than the CHAS ratio, but not by much."...

Hmm... One could believe that they tried to match those results with what they wanted. Nope, if I remember correctly, there was a change only on one parameter, what was it, beats or no-beats for the octave?

..."..Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."...

Hmm... They said clearly (three times) that that research is on non-iH tones, and in fact they compared "raw" scale ratios. I am not that suspicious, in any case, you would be saying that that is a falsification.

..."..Nevertheless, it is an interesting article which does support the idea of stretching the octave beyond what is required if you buy their assumptions."...

What is there left then? One might buy their assumptions, others might buy your silly idea that Chas is crack-pottery, some others might get stuck, like Jeff.

lol

Regards, a.c.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/23/17 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.


Here the full quote at Alfredo's request.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/23/17 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.


Here the full quote at Alfredo's request.

Kees


That's better, Kees. Thank you.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

lol

I see, you were addressing the whole theory, not unisons... lol.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.


Here the full quote at Alfredo's request.

Kees


That's better, Kees. Thank you.


Hopefully this will enhance general understanding of the harmonically resonating tensorial fractal isomorphisms of your C.HA.S.®.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 12:23 PM


Actually, the "general understanding" of the Chas theory and practice is not a problem, Kees.

So far it has been understood by the piano makers Fazioli (Italy) and Paulello (France), by the developers of Pianoteq and Scala, by the authors and the revisers of the articles listed below and by Professor Guerino Mazzola, and it has already been understood by very many colleagues in Italy, in France and more recently in Canada.

And we all know our PianoWorld colleague Kent Swafford, who has developed some ET styles for Verituner, including Chas ET.

Professor Haye Hinrichsen describes Chas with few and simple words:

..."..the semitone ratio is defined by the implicit equation

(3 − ∆)^(1/19) = (4 + s∆)^(1/24)

with two construction-specific parameters s and ∆, where the special case of c.ha.s corresponds to setting s = 1."...

Now that I have understood what is wrong with Bernhard, the question might be how to enhance my understanding of what is wrong with you, today again.

Have a nice Sunday

Edit: I would have a suggestion, why don't you take it all out, once and for all, and perhaps we can sort this continuous poisoning of yours? If you like, you could post here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2076930/Re:_C.HA.S._Model_-_Climates_a.html
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 02:39 PM



Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Actually, the "general understanding" of the Chas theory and practice is not a problem, Kees.

So far it has been understood by the piano makers Fazioli (Italy) and Paulello (France), by the developers of Pianoteq and Scala, by the authors and the revisers of the articles listed below and by Professor Guerino Mazzola, and it has already been understood by very many colleagues in Italy, in France and more recently in Canada.


I was in contact with Prof. G. Mazzola some years ago, where he mentioned that he has been contacted by you trying to elicit some confirmation of your Chas theory. His comment to me was: "I won´t touch this"

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


And we all know our PianoWorld colleague Kent Swafford, who has developed some ET styles for Verituner, including Chas ET.


By the way, can you predict to what ET size a Chas temperament done by an ETD on the middle string would migrate when completing the unisons? If your theory about pitch sagging from cramping a pure twelfth ET in to a Chas ET by completing the unisons would be correct, the result would an inverted ET, with octaves smaller than pure...

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Now that I have understood what is wrong with Bernhard, ...



are you sure? more later.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Actually, the "general understanding" of the Chas theory and practice is not a problem, Kees.

So far it has been understood by the piano makers Fazioli (Italy) and Paulello (France), by the developers of Pianoteq and Scala, by the authors and the revisers of the articles listed below and by Professor Guerino Mazzola, and it has already been understood by very many colleagues in Italy, in France and more recently in Canada.

And we all know our PianoWorld colleague Kent Swafford, who has developed some ET styles for Verituner, including Chas ET.

Professor Haye Hinrichsen describes Chas with few and simple words:

..."..the semitone ratio is defined by the implicit equation

(3 − ∆)^(1/19) = (4 + s∆)^(1/24)

with two construction-specific parameters s and ∆, where the special case of c.ha.s corresponds to setting s = 1."...

Now that I have understood what is wrong with Bernhard, the question might be how to enhance my understanding of what is wrong with you, today again.

Have a nice Sunday

Edit: I would have a suggestion, why don't you take it all out, once and for all, and perhaps we can sort this continuous poisoning of yours? If you like, you could post here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2076930/Re:_C.HA.S._Model_-_Climates_a.html

I read somewhere (maybe in that article by the school teacher "professor") that you have even bothered poor Benoit Mandelbrot with your stuff shortly before he passed away.

Chas was debunked by me and others years ago, but your strategy seems to be to wait and then start peddling it afresh for a new audience.

Please refrain from personal insults, even though it must be frustrating that you can't refute my (and other's) objections because you apparently can't understand them.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 05:05 PM


Kees, you wrote..."I read somewhere (maybe in that article by the school teacher "professor") that you have even bothered poor Benoit Mandelbrot with your stuff shortly before he passed away."...

Is it that detail that annoys you?

..."..Chas was debunked by me and others years ago, but your strategy seems to be to wait and then start peddling it afresh for a new audience."...

Yes, I do remember that a few posters, including you, here in PW decided to ridicule my sharing since the beginning, but so what? What has that to do with sharing my finding? I have no "strategy", sharing Chas, for me, is simply a pleasure.

..."..Please refrain from personal insults, even though it must be frustrating that you can't refute my (and other's) objections because you apparently can't understand them."...

Well, recently I could understand Bernhard's objections very well, and I hope I could clarify many points. I also understood Chris objections and I replied extensively on that too. To you, I believe I have already said all I could say, though you do not seem to understand that the Chas model is simply one of many ET representations.

Mind you, no insulting intended, but please be careful when you share your idea that Professor Haye Hinrichsen .."...looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.". You see, that would be called "scientific misconduct", and perhaps you understand all the implications. If you want to act as a whistle-blower please go ahead and contact the institutions; otherwise please stop acting as a defamer.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Toni Goldener

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper



By the way, can you predict to what ET size a Chas temperament done by an ETD on the middle string would migrate when completing the unisons? If your theory about pitch sagging from cramping a pure twelfth ET in to a Chas ET by completing the unisons would be correct, the result would an inverted ET, with octaves smaller than pure...



In my experience, pitch sagging happens. I tested it with the Verituner and TunicOnlyPure, witch gives btw very nice unisons. If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by rXd
Since we have access to such rarefied once in a lifetime expertise, will the combatants please colaborate on an answer for me.

Given that few new piano trios have been written by major composers over the last hundred years, the reason given is that the piano, as an instrument has become overpowering for violin and cello, one result is that Schoenberg has written for more powerful winds being combined with the weaker regions of the piano leading to flute and clarinet interacting in the fifth and sixth octaves while the piano part is written including the sixth and seventh octave. Simultaneously, bassoon in the second octave with piano in the first and second octave.
In the same program, Harrison Birtwistle, equally respected these days but more contemporary, has written for standard instrumentation, piano, violin, 'cello but using similar compositional techniques.

What would be the ideal stretch for this situation? Given the lack of iH in the winds and strings and this discussion has used a 0 iH model, Should I adjust the basic pitch in order to accommodate the instruments involved so that I have greater flexibility of stretch?

Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.


I was looking for well considered sound advice from the acknowledged experts in the field but I will of course, this being a public forum, consider a well meaning best guess.


Sure, here is a guess. Just like the radio satisfied the need for the home piano, especially player pianos, (making them less and less popular) so too did quality recordings satisfy the need for small ensembles such as piano trios. Parlor music, where a small ensemble could fit into a home and a full orchestra could not, was replaced with hi-fi recordings and equipment.

Myself, I dislike piano trios. Only the piano is in tune... Somehow it is different with a large ensemble. The average pitch of the large sections seems to be better, or perhaps just indeterminate.


Thanks, Jeff. I did say "'given' the few new piano trios....."..the classical world here exists outside the real world. I cannot enjoy many piano trios either. It is a very difficult art form with three illusionists. Where else do illusionists appear together? Part of my job is attending concerts so I know it can be done but rarely. You have to kiss a lot of frogs. Welcome to my briar patch, by the way.
My main question was about where some serious tuning rubber hits some serious toad. (That's my spellcheck guessing the context again). This afternoon I heard on the radio a German orchestra (Germany,where the piano tuners are trained to death and the singers allowed to sing out of tune if they do it loud enough). There was a beautifully in tune held woodwind chord spoiled by an orchestral piano arpeggio that finished horrendously sharp. The engineer clearly heard it and relegated it into the background which I think made it sound worse.
Well, I don't want anything like that happening in my briar patch and so I asked the question.
The broadcast in the original question happened and worked well but was a pre-curser of tonight's LSO /Rattle /Stravinsky concert. Double woodwind and Eb clarinet. Since the clarinet registers at the twelfth and all other woodwinds register at the octave, there is a parallel here but nobody seems to have picked up on it. Woodwinds officially have no inharmonicity but they do have idiosyncrasies that can resemble inharmonicity.

There was a comedy radio panel game here called simply; "Does the team think?"

So, having just tuned an orchestral piano, does the team think there should be any difference in tuning for a concerto piano out front and an orchestral piano situated between the harps and the woodwind?

Supplementary question,

Has the team any idea what the divil I'm talking about?

Does the piano need to be overstretched in preference to the imagined requirements of those in the cheap seats at the back or is it wiser to favour the very real pitch requirements of the finest musicians in the world surrounding the piano?

Does CHaS have any bearing on this particular reality?

Does reality lighten up the situation?

(One of the violinists goin on stage just saw me backstage waiting for the intermission and played minor thirds like an emergency vehicle and played them progressively flatter as he strolled by me with a broad grin on his face.). It's like monty python For musicians back here. The situation is always light..

This is the LSO. The finest orchestra in the world. I would include the Berlin but I just heard their "Planets "on the radio using a Wagner tuba ( a sort of baritone horn with a French horn mouthpiece instead of the more robust wide bore Bb tenor tuba (euphonium) that it was written for.

Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 07:56 PM

So it all worked as planned. After some serious hammering with the brass and xylophone, an arpeggio downward from a good unison with the picc in the 7th octave to another good unison with the cor anglais in the third octave proving what I have always said about tuning high notes using upward arpeggios only. If all music were written upwards, the pianist would finish up a few yards to the right of the piano.

This, of course is the root of the problem with any tuning that advocates excessive stretching.

What about a piano being used for a movie score that is with a symphony orchestra in one measure then with electronics in the next.

What does CHaS and his friends have to say about that?

There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation.

And yet, and......Yet. there is an app for tuning violins in some kind of patented stretch. Look in your App Store now.
Not only that, they're asking some serious money for it!!! Who would possibly buy it???people learning the violin without a competent teacher???? A DIYer?? Just like a DIYer piano tuner might think that a designer tuning would solve all their problems.

It won't

Rant over.

Look at me

All covered in pitch.

No pun intended, either way
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 10:17 PM


Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.


Hi Kent,

Good to see you here.

In my experience, the amount of sagging is never the same, that depends on the individual piano. Yes, I too think that some experimentation would be interesting, also taking into consideration different/small orders of magnitude.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/24/17 10:30 PM


Rxd, you wrote:

..."..There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation."...

I tried to explain what you are saying above to a PW poster that named himself as Tunewerk. I was not successful.
.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/25/17 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Rxd, you wrote:

..."..There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation."...

I tried to explain what you are saying above to a PW poster that named himself as Tunewerk. I was not successful.
.


Oh! dear, oh! dear, oh! dear, if we care to look back in these threads, we will find that it was you, Alfredo, who didn't understand the realities of the situation. I'm happy to learn that now, some 7-8 years later, that you are showing some glimmerings of a more gestalt understanding of this whole tuning situation.

I have a foot in both camps. The intensely practical side of the finest of music making and the often pretentious suppositions that lie elsewhere.

All the tuners in our team are not only encouraged to hear the results of their work in real life, we are actually paid to attend the concerts that we tune for whether there is an intermission tuning or not. The music profession in London has a vested interest in the training and, above all, education of its tuners unlike anywhere else in the world. It's teamwork. Supported by the piano manufacturer who of course, also has a vested interest and survival instinct. The tuner that tuned tonight's piano at two o'clock this afternoon, was not me, I was at a Rolls Royce owners gathering.

I have been accused of living in some kind of ivory tower but I've done my share of plastic elbows too.

Some 7-8 years ago, when I made the simple statement of truth that the treble of the piano, if tuned entirely 2:1 octaves was already sharper than any other musical instrument in common western use, it was painfully obvious by your usual questions that you had no inkling of what I was talking about. (It's all in the archives). Do you have a grasp of this aspect now?

You were not alone, you were polite about it. Others weren't. Thank you.

The piano is Primarily a musical instrument and is subject to the same illusions of other musical instruments. The 90 musicians last night would give short shrift to a tuner that blunders in there with their own imaginings of how they think it should be.

I have no pretensions to being some kind of sensitive genius, I merely have the combined experience passed on to me from the generations before me who, over the years, evolved to create this incredible team work that is what was heard all over the world last night. This experience I have found duplicated elsewhere in a different way.

In what way is being of service to the finest musicians in the world any different than reproducing that same service to budding musicians? At what point does the science behind the art get left behind so that the art has a life of its own?
(In reality, the science never gets left behind, it simply begins to deal with the parameters that always got left out of the equations, the open secrets, if you like).

I ask my questions of you in a Socratic way, knowing that you don't yet have the answers. After 7-8 years, (the length of the old apprenticeships), now you are ready to learn something more. We all are.

What you are doing is valuable. But will what goes on in the privacy of a living room between a tuner and their clients piano stand up to the audible glare of an international concert hall?

What is happening here is a refinement of your own idea of the same old suppositions and religiously held credos of the average piano tuner of limited experience.

In attempting to do so, you have opened up the subject to many others and, like me, opening yourself up to the brickbats of those who also now seem to be learning something. An invaluable service for which I thank you 😊 .

Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/25/17 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Rxd, you wrote:

..."..There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation."...

I tried to explain what you are saying above to a PW poster that named himself as Tunewerk. I was not successful.
.

The piano is Primarily a musical instrument and is subject to the same illusions of other musical instruments. The 90 musicians last night would give short shrift to a tuner that blunders in there with their own imaginings of how they think it should be.

I have no pretensions to being some kind of sensitive genius, I merely have the combined experience passed on to me from the generations before me who, over the years, evolved to create this incredible team work that is what was heard all over the world last night. This experience I have found duplicated elsewhere in a different way.

In what way is being of service to the finest musicians in the world any different than reproducing that same service to budding musicians? At what point does the science behind the art get left behind so that the art has a life of its own?
(In reality, the science never gets left behind, it simply begins to deal with the parameters that always got left out of the equations, the open secrets, if you like).

I ask my questions of you in a Socratic way, knowing that you don't yet have the answers. After 7-8 years, (the length of the old apprenticeships), now you are ready to learn something more. We all are.

What you are doing is valuable. But will what goes on in the privacy of a living room between a tuner and their clients piano stand up to the audible glare of an international concert hall?

What is happening here is a refinement of your own idea of the same old suppositions and religiously held credos of the average piano tuner of limited experience.

In attempting to do so, you have opened up the subject to many others and, like me, opening yourself up to the brickbats of those who also now seem to be learning something. An invaluable service for which I thank you 😊 .


Thanks rXd for yours message
octaves it's "our's ALL"? Or if have any exception? What?
Mr. Stopper see it's right process when all gaps of an area = 5, but his octave is weak and bad for our ears
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/25/17 12:43 PM

Amanda, I'll respond to you outside the brier patch. wink

I enjoyed your posts because of the odd over-lap between what you wrote and my past experience. I once was a trombonist for circus bands, a VERY humorous environment, but also very demanding for a 'bone player. But my main instrument was euphonium in marching and military bands.

You muse about how a piano should be tuned. Out of personal preference, I tune it to sound best with itself, which I believe is very close to pure 12ths. The piano is considered the King of Instruments. Should a King bow to the will of fickle commoners?
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/25/17 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Rxd, you wrote:

..."..There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation."...

I tried to explain what you are saying above to a PW poster that named himself as Tunewerk. I was not successful.
.

The piano is Primarily a musical instrument and is subject to the same illusions of other musical instruments. The 90 musicians last night would give short shrift to a tuner that blunders in there with their own imaginings of how they think it should be.

I have no pretensions to being some kind of sensitive genius, I merely have the combined experience passed on to me from the generations before me who, over the years, evolved to create this incredible team work that is what was heard all over the world last night. This experience I have found duplicated elsewhere in a different way.

In what way is being of service to the finest musicians in the world any different than reproducing that same service to budding musicians? At what point does the science behind the art get left behind so that the art has a life of its own?
(In reality, the science never gets left behind, it simply begins to deal with the parameters that always got left out of the equations, the open secrets, if you like).

I ask my questions of you in a Socratic way, knowing that you don't yet have the answers. After 7-8 years, (the length of the old apprenticeships), now you are ready to learn something more. We all are.

What you are doing is valuable. But will what goes on in the privacy of a living room between a tuner and their clients piano stand up to the audible glare of an international concert hall?

What is happening here is a refinement of your own idea of the same old suppositions and religiously held credos of the average piano tuner of limited experience.

In attempting to do so, you have opened up the subject to many others and, like me, opening yourself up to the brickbats of those who also now seem to be learning something. An invaluable service for which I thank you 😊 .


Thanks rXd for yours message
octaves it's "our's ALL"? Or if have any exception? What?
Mr. Stopper see it's right process when all gaps of an area = 5, but his octave is weak and bad for our ears


That's entirely correct, Max. Octaves and unisons are the same. An octave should sound like a unison. As immutable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians. This will point out any errors in the temperament.

Except. That's so easy to say about large pianos where the vagaries of string winding are not so noticeable. Nevertheless,
Octaves should sound as much like a unison as possible taking care that the intervals inside the octave don't suffer.
In extreme cases I set the temperament a fifth or even an octave lower.

But we've done that to 💀 in other threads.

Later.
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/25/17 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Rxd, you wrote:

..."..There's a lot of misguided imaginings. This thing that string players tune in perfect fifths! They can't. Not the professionals, it's far too impractical. Don't t forget they have the same problem that we do. Exactly the same.

From 'cello C-G-D-A through to violin g-d-a-e, the cello C to violin e is Pythagorean. They have to temper. The studio musicians that I associated with daily temper their intervals more than we do. Of course they rarely play open strings but to have a string that is sharp in the first place limits flexibility of intonation."...

I tried to explain what you are saying above to a PW poster that named himself as Tunewerk. I was not successful.
.

The piano is Primarily a musical instrument and is subject to the same illusions of other musical instruments. The 90 musicians last night would give short shrift to a tuner that blunders in there with their own imaginings of how they think it should be.

I have no pretensions to being some kind of sensitive genius, I merely have the combined experience passed on to me from the generations before me who, over the years, evolved to create this incredible team work that is what was heard all over the world last night. This experience I have found duplicated elsewhere in a different way.

In what way is being of service to the finest musicians in the world any different than reproducing that same service to budding musicians? At what point does the science behind the art get left behind so that the art has a life of its own?
(In reality, the science never gets left behind, it simply begins to deal with the parameters that always got left out of the equations, the open secrets, if you like).

I ask my questions of you in a Socratic way, knowing that you don't yet have the answers. After 7-8 years, (the length of the old apprenticeships), now you are ready to learn something more. We all are.

What you are doing is valuable. But will what goes on in the privacy of a living room between a tuner and their clients piano stand up to the audible glare of an international concert hall?

What is happening here is a refinement of your own idea of the same old suppositions and religiously held credos of the average piano tuner of limited experience.

In attempting to do so, you have opened up the subject to many others and, like me, opening yourself up to the brickbats of those who also now seem to be learning something. An invaluable service for which I thank you 😊 .


Thanks rXd for yours message
octaves it's "our's ALL"? Or if have any exception? What?
Mr. Stopper see it's right process when all gaps of an area = 5, but his octave is weak and bad for our ears


That's entirely correct, Max. Octaves and unisons are the same. An octave should sound like a unison. As immutable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians. This will point out any errors in the temperament.

Except. That's so easy to say about large pianos where the vagaries of string winding are not so noticeable. Nevertheless,
Octaves should sound as much like a unison as possible taking care that the intervals inside the octave don't suffer.
In extreme cases I set the temperament a fifth or even an octave lower.

But we've done that to 💀 in other threads.

Later.


Thank you very much
It may sound strange. But for me it was fundamentally important to hear such an exhaustive and at the same time a short answer exactly from you
Thanks again.
We look forward to hearing from you answer an testing about the test through the lower octave
regards, Max
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/17 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Mind you, no insulting intended, but please be careful when you share your idea that Professor Haye Hinrichsen .."...looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.". You see, that would be called "scientific misconduct", and perhaps you understand all the implications. If you want to act as a whistle-blower please go ahead and contact the institutions; otherwise please stop acting as a defamer.


Thanks for the advisory note. Based on 35 years of experience in research, I think a slight bias in an investigation is far from "scientific misconduct", which is more related to faking your data, or claiming you are a "professor" when you are actually a school teacher, and I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism.

To return the favor: I hope you are aware that it is illegal in many countries to use the "circled R" symbol (indicating a registered trademark) unless the trademark was applied for and approved by an appropriate IPO protection agency?

Kees
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/17 05:09 AM

Hi. Max,
Thank you. Since this is Alfredo's thread and he is very specific as to what should be discussed on each of his threads, as if any aspect of tuning can be compartmentalised, I was brief.

I agree with your perception. Everybody loves a powerful bass even when it doesn't balance the treble. Compromising the octave destroys some of that power and resonance. Even in the '30's, Alfred Howe in his book says "there shall be no flattening of the bass to create a "deep" effect". Often casual melodic perception leads to excessive stretching.

Stories abound where a client, perceiving a bass note to be sharp is asked to tell the tuner to stop lowering the note when it sounds in tune as an octave. Usually it is at 7-8 Hz or more. Lowering the pitch even half a beat will make a difference that makes no difference

Inharmonicity is almost always blamed for this phenomenon.

The zero iH model found here has merit.
There was a time when I had unlimited access to a Hammond organ and I spent hours listening to th sounds, harmonically and melodically of piano tuning intervals. I found this invaluable in realising in practical terms what would happen without iH and learned quite thoroughly on a very practical level how much inharmonicity changed the situation. (The Hammond is not perfect because of the difficulty of having a percentage of a tooth on tone wheels all spinning on the same shaft at the same speed but comes extremely close for practical purposes).

Inharmonicity gets a bad rap for more than it is responsible for in these pages.

Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/17 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Amanda, I'll respond to you outside the brier patch. wink

I enjoyed your posts because of the odd over-lap between what you wrote and my past experience. I once was a trombonist for circus bands, a VERY humorous environment, but also very demanding for a 'bone player. But my main instrument was euphonium in marching and military bands.

You muse about how a piano should be tuned. Out of personal preference, I tune it to sound best with itself, which I believe is very close to pure 12ths. The piano is considered the King of Instruments. Should a King bow to the will of fickle commoners?


We have discussed this befor, but I played trumpet with a circus band during the summer and Easter breaks when I was still in school. We brought in military musicians for the television shows. They had some stories. Village brass band training. I used to write arrangements of the hymns of armistice day and wrote soaring euphonium countermelodies for the last verse.

More to the point here, I forgot to mention that I sometimes asked the pianist to leave out the odd note here and there to make the violin and cello lines more playable in tune when I was involved in rehearsing and recording piano trios.

I actually played in a silent movie orchestra from the original commercial orchestrations from the years before talkies. Violin, cello, clarinet, piano and I used a cornet for blend and historical accuracy. A violin and cello can play the same line in double octaves with a lot of stretch and get away with it. Often the cornet part was written the same line in the middle octave between them. It was impossible to be in tune with them both so I discreetly made up my own line to avoid the situation. Clarinet had the same problem but he didn't have the improvisational skills to skate round it. We traveled the USA with a projectionist at film festivals in the '90's.

I refined my tuning style independently through all these and other experiences plus my traditional training . That's why I fit in immediately with the studio requirements in LA and in London. The tuners here work as a team, stability being the key and any tuner who creates extra work for them simply gets dropped from the team and doesn't get any of the more well paid work. We should be able to walk into a tuning and be done in twenty five minutes or so. The pianos are tuned that often. It only takes one tuner to get too clever and that time more than doubles and the stability in that piano that we have all carefully built on over the tunings, suffers. We don't let them near the good stuff unless they have proven themselves on the less good stuff. I treasure the text I got from the head London concert tuner after he was the next to tune after the first job I did for them. He said that if I continue tuning so well we shall all become gentlemen of leisure!
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/17 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Mind you, no insulting intended, but please be careful when you share your idea that Professor Haye Hinrichsen .."...looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.". You see, that would be called "scientific misconduct", and perhaps you understand all the implications. If you want to act as a whistle-blower please go ahead and contact the institutions; otherwise please stop acting as a defamer.


Thanks for the advisory note. Based on 35 years of experience in research, I think a slight bias in an investigation is far from "scientific misconduct", which is more related to faking your data, or claiming you are a "professor" when you are actually a school teacher, and I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism.

To return the favor: I hope you are aware that it is illegal in many countries to use the "circled R" symbol (indicating a registered trademark) unless the trademark was applied for and approved by an appropriate IPO protection agency?

Kees


Kees,

I am glad you say .."..I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism."

You see, "criticism" is one thing, what you wrote in your review sounded completely like a different thing.


Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.

This paper however does seem to support the idea that the optimal stretch should sacrifice the sacred octave in favor of the balanced 12th and 15th, and is not devoid of meaningful content.

Nevertheless I have some doubts about their conclusion, which is that it will sound better to stretch the octave (in a no IH case), by an amount which is between pure 12ths (Stopper tuning) and CHAS (in-between 12th and 15th) but is close to CHAS.

1) They assume the "entropy" which is a mathematical formula hypothesized to be relevant to human hearing should be minimal. It is not clear that this "entropy" is in fact doing that.

2) They model the piano as a set of fundamental frequencies, plus partials (n=2,3,4,..) which have energy that decreases exponentially with n, with a parameter called lambda which they guess. Clearly this does not cover most of the piano, for example in the tenor/bass, the fundamental is actually weaker than the partials.

3) When they compute and minimize the "entropy" using the partials of all notes, the solution is standard ET, with a perfect octave.

4) They then argue that the peaks in the Fourier spectrum (sharp peaks at the partials) should be replaced by wider peaks, widened by another parameter called sigma which is in cents. Then it is claimed that this is somehow related to the human frequency discrimination, which they set at the "realistic" value of 5 cents. This does not make much sense to me, as 0.5 cent difference is audible not directly, but as a change in beat rate of intervals.

Finally they find values for the tweak parameters of their unrealistic piano sound model (lambda and sigma) such that the entropy minimum is no longer at the perfect octave. The value they find is larger than the CHAS ratio, but not by much.

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.

Nevertheless, it is an interesting article which does support the idea of stretching the octave beyond what is required if you buy their assumptions.

Kees


When I read your post (above), I could ignore your demolition tone, but I was a bit shocked by this sentence of yours:

..."Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."

Now, I am not English mother-tongue, so I can only be wrong, but I asked myself, is Kees saying that "..they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."?

I misunderstood then, I thought you were saying that (for you) they put those parameters together, in order to derive the conclusion that they desired.

Below is one of many sites where one can read about "scientific misconduct":

https://www.enago.com/academy/10-types-of-scientific-misconduct/

At points 6 and 7 we read the following:

6 - Violation of Generally Accepted Research Practices – this can include the proposal of the research study, manipulation of experiments to generate preferred results, deceptive statistical or analytical practices to generate preferred results, or improper reporting of results to present a misleading outcome.

7 - Falsification of Data – rather than manipulate the experiments or the data to generate preferred results, this transgression simply fabricates the data entirely.

My apologies, now I understand that you meant "..a slight bias in an investigation..", and that sounds different by all means. But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

For your information, in Italy and perhaps in Austria, "Professor" is used indifferently in secondary schools and university environment.

The Chas logo is registered in compliance with the law.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/26/17 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Mind you, no insulting intended, but please be careful when you share your idea that Professor Haye Hinrichsen .."...looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.". You see, that would be called "scientific misconduct", and perhaps you understand all the implications. If you want to act as a whistle-blower please go ahead and contact the institutions; otherwise please stop acting as a defamer.


Thanks for the advisory note. Based on 35 years of experience in research, I think a slight bias in an investigation is far from "scientific misconduct", which is more related to faking your data, or claiming you are a "professor" when you are actually a school teacher, and I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism.

To return the favor: I hope you are aware that it is illegal in many countries to use the "circled R" symbol (indicating a registered trademark) unless the trademark was applied for and approved by an appropriate IPO protection agency?

Kees



Kees,

Following what I wrote in my post (right above this post), there is one more thing that is not clear to me.

You wrote: ..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research, I think a slight bias in an investigation is far from "scientific misconduct", which is more related to faking your data,..."...

There again I might misunderstand. Could you clarify "who" is faking data, and specify "what", which "data" you are referring to?
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/17 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Actually, the "general understanding" of the Chas theory and practice is not a problem, Kees.

So far it has been understood by the piano makers Fazioli (Italy) and Paulello (France), by the developers of Pianoteq and Scala, by the authors and the revisers of the articles listed below and by Professor Guerino Mazzola, and it has already been understood by very many colleagues in Italy, in France and more recently in Canada.
I was in contact with Prof. G. Mazzola some years ago, where he mentioned that he has been contacted by you trying to elicit some confirmation of your Chas theory. His comment to me was: "I won´t touch this"




Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/17 08:16 AM


Kees,

I have tried my best and politely asked you to stop acting as a defamer.

Again, be more careful with what you write and what you do and stop spamming this thread with whatever comes into your head.

I see that you quoted Bernhard statement: "I was in contact with Prof. G. Mazzola some years ago, where he mentioned that he has been contacted by you trying to elicit some confirmation of your Chas theory. His comment to me was: "I won´t touch this"."

Kees, you could mention "..slight bias.." when you commented Professor Haye Hinrichsen's paper, now you could think of "heavy" bias and be serene. Bernhard is the one who wrote about "cello scrotum" and mistakes of all kind, don't you remember?

From my previous post, where I wrote: "My apologies, now I understand that you meant "..a slight bias in an investigation..", and that sounds different by all means. But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?"

Tell us about yourself.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/17 12:03 PM

Many "understand" C.H.A.S. That is, they "understand" C.H.A.S. is a way for Alfredo to gain notoriety. Unfortunately it has not produced the type of notoriety he intended.

As far as human bias, that is just part of being human. Otherwise there would be no fans of sports teams nor political parties. Perhaps not even families. Surely without human bias this Forum would be dead! smile
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/27/17 08:44 PM


Jeff, you are almost there... I just happen to be the way for Chas to gain notoriety. In this sense, this ET model is very happy wherever I take it with me.

I like your innocence, and I like your humanity, and yes, "human bias,... is just part of being human.", that thought of yours is very profound.

And you are correct, one has to take this Forum as it is smile

Kees,

From my previous post, where I wrote: "My apologies, now I understand that you meant "..a slight bias in an investigation..", and that sounds different by all means. But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?"

Tell us about yourself."

Regards, a.c.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Kees,

From my previous post, where I wrote: "My apologies, now I understand that you meant "..a slight bias in an investigation..", and that sounds different by all means. But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?"

Tell us about yourself."

I'm unable to parse your quotation marks.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 07:21 AM


I see. lol

You are unable to remember what you yourself wrote in this thread? Take some rest, Kees, and be careful when you write.

From my previous post, where I wrote: ..."But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

Tell us about yourself."

Regards, a.c.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Jeff, you are almost there... I just happen to be the way for Chas to gain notoriety. In this sense, this ET model is very happy wherever I take it with me.

...


You claim altruistic motives, that you are doing all this for the sake of Chas and not for yourself? Your actions speak otherwise, shaman.

Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it. If this was not true, he would not have pulled the trickery regarding inharmonicity in his paper, showing a linear graph in one instance and showing non-linear results in another. In discussing Chas, if he were truly altruistic, he would be delighted that others have also used equal beating 12ths and 17ths to produce their own, optimum stretch. Likewise, he would have been overjoyed when shown more elegant mathematical ways to obtain the Chas theoretical stretch number and enthusiastic to see that it could be done whether the common note was on the top or the bottom. Further, being an aural tuner, he would have embraced the value of having the common note on top because of the aural checks involved.

None of this happened. At first, years ago, he would become indignant, showing his true self. This was counter productive, so now he is using a soft approach pretending innocence. And yet it still comes through the cracks. Here he is now questioning Kees' credentials, which really doesn't matter; trying to shift the conversation away from himself; trying to change the focus from what is right to who is right.

Folks, this is a case of someone creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him through that idol. And watch out if you question this!

Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
From my previous post, where I wrote: ..."But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

Tell us about yourself."
Still does not parse. Does the first quote mark pair up with the second, or the fourth, or what?
I suggest you use the
Code
[quote=name of author]Letters of author[/quote]
feature provided by this forum.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 06:28 PM

Jeff,

Thank you for sharing your reasoning. I guess your interpretation may have something to do with your bias, and if that was the case, like for fans of sports teams or political parties, I would have no reason for trying to change your opinion. But at least I can reply and try, as usual, to clarify on your points.

You wrote: ..."You claim altruistic motives, that you are doing all this for the sake of Chas and not for yourself? Your actions speak otherwise, shaman."...

I do not understand if "shaman" is to be understood as a compliment or what. Anyway, yes, I am sharing the Chas theory and practice for other colleagues' benefit.

..."..Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it."...

For what I know, a theory cannot be "a fake", it can be correct or incorrect, depending on how well it describes reality.

..."..If this was not true, he would not have pulled the trickery regarding inharmonicity in his paper, showing a linear graph in one instance and showing non-linear results in another."...

You are talking about graphs that correctly "represent" the relative (correct) figures, no more, no less. For you that is a trick, but fact is that those graphs are mere representations. In general, graphs may contain an error, but the validity of a theory has nothing to do with errors of that kind.

..."..In discussing Chas, if he were truly altruistic, he would be delighted that others have also used equal beating 12ths and 17ths to produce their own, optimum stretch."...

I do not see what difference it would make onto the Chas theory if I were selfish or altruistic, anyway... I was happy when I learned that Bill was using 12ths and 15ths for tuning octaves, and I was positive about that method, I said that it could provide a handy rule for expanding the temperament. Perhaps you could be "delighted", personally speaking I don't expand the temperament by tuning octaves only.

..."..Likewise, he would have been overjoyed when shown more elegant mathematical ways to obtain the Chas theoretical stretch number..."...

I do remember your formula, perhaps more "elegant" in your eyes, and I was happy seeing that you could eventually elaborate on that. I remember saying that that formula calculates the Chas ratio, but does not represent the reality I wanted to represent with the Chas algorithm and the relative parameters.

..."..and enthusiastic to see that it could be done whether the common note was on the top or the bottom."...

Sorry, I cannot see what that has to do with being altruistic and the validity of Chas. I am enthusiastic when I share my own experience and I mentioned that, when I expand, I do not use a spanner nor a double spanner. All intervals, with their beat-rates, contribute to shaping a "form", I think I said a beating-whole?

..."..Further, being an aural tuner, he would have embraced the value of having the common note on top because of the aural checks involved."...

For me, the "practical" value is when we interrelate all intervals, that is what I do and that is what I can share when it comes to practice.

..."..None of this happened. At first, years ago, he would become indignant, showing his true self."...

I believe we may show more than one "true self", perhaps depending on the insults, on the insinuations and on the mockery, and on deceiving and/or hijacking attempts we get from different types of posters.

..."..This was counter productive, so now he is using a soft approach pretending innocence."...

Let me say that that is your own conjecture, perhaps you would like to be depicted as a person that pretends something? I think you have a different person in mind.

..."..And yet it still comes through the cracks. Here he is now questioning Kees' credentials, which really doesn't matter; trying to shift the conversation away from himself; trying to change the focus from what is right to who is right."...

Hmm... With Kees the story is a bit different. I can ignore his arrogance, his ignorance when it comes to piano tuning practice, his bias, even him stating that Chas is crack-pottery like a broken record, I can do with that. But recently he made a serious statement that could defame a researcher, that I cannot tolerate. On the other hand, I look forward to shifting this conversation away from my psychology, from you and from Kees, and focus on what I would like to share.

..."..Folks, this is a case of someone creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him through that idol. And watch out if you question this!"...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
From my previous post, where I wrote: ..."But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

Tell us about yourself."
Still does not parse. Does the first quote mark pair up with the second, or the fourth, or what?
I suggest you use the
Code
[quote=name of author]Letters of author[/quote]
feature provided by this forum.

Kees


Hi Kees,

Thanks for that. Please find below our recent original posts:

Originally Posted by DoelKees

Thanks for the advisory note. Based on 35 years of experience in research, I think a slight bias in an investigation is far from "scientific misconduct", which is more related to faking your data, or claiming you are a "professor" when you are actually a school teacher, and I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism.



My reply:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Kees,

I am glad you say .."..I have no doubt Haye has produced an honest and valuable paper, which is however not above criticism."

You see, "criticism" is one thing, what you wrote in your review sounded completely like a different thing.



Below you can re-read what you had written:


Originally Posted by DoelKees

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.



And my comment and question on what you wrote in the first place and after, about "bias in an investigation":

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

When I read your post (above), I could ignore your demolition tone, but I was a bit shocked by this sentence of yours:

..."Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."

Now, I am not English mother-tongue, so I can only be wrong, but I asked myself, is Kees saying that "..they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."?

I misunderstood then, I thought you were saying that (for you) they put those parameters together, in order to derive the conclusion that they desired.

Below is one of many sites where one can read about "scientific misconduct":

https://www.enago.com/academy/10-types-of-scientific-misconduct/

At points 6 and 7 we read the following:

6 - Violation of Generally Accepted Research Practices – this can include the proposal of the research study, manipulation of experiments to generate preferred results, deceptive statistical or analytical practices to generate preferred results, or improper reporting of results to present a misleading outcome.

7 - Falsification of Data – rather than manipulate the experiments or the data to generate preferred results, this transgression simply fabricates the data entirely.

My apologies, now I understand that you meant "..a slight bias in an investigation..", and that sounds different by all means. But, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

..."..Based on 35 years of experience in research..".., are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

.
Posted By: BDB

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 10:12 PM

I keep wondering how many pianos could have been tuned in the time wasted on this topic!
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/28/17 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by BDB
I keep wondering how many pianos could have been tuned in the time wasted on this topic!


Well, BDB, I tuned six pianos today in a school. How about you?

I am not sure this time is wasted, for me it is time that I allocate myself.
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
..."..Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it."...

For what I know, a theory cannot be "a fake", it can be correct or incorrect, depending on how well it describes reality.

Statements can be 1) true, 2) false, 3) true of false but we don't know, or 4) meaningless.

Simple (educational) examples:

1) 1+1=2
2) 1+1=3
3) Every even integer greater than 2 can be expressed as the sum of two primes.
4) Apple + square root = banana.

More realistic examples:

1) The earth orbits the sun.
2) The earth is donut shaped.
3) Black holes evaporate.
4) The chas model may open the way towards further research both in relationships between energy, sound and matter, and in those areas where resonance, beat, spin and other phenomena related to waves are studied. We see here the helix effect and the torsion of the set (section 4.9) determined by the natural interweaving of the differences from harmonic partials 2, 3 and 5.

Kees
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by BDB
I keep wondering how many pianos could have been tuned in the time wasted on this topic!


Well, BDB, I tuned six pianos today in a school. How about you?.......

.


With a chas preparatory tuning on each one.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
..."..Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it."...

For what I know, a theory cannot be "a fake", it can be correct or incorrect, depending on how well it describes reality.

Statements can be 1) true, 2) false, 3) true of false but we don't know, or 4) meaningless.

Simple (educational) examples:

1) 1+1=2
2) 1+1=3
3) Every even integer greater than 2 can be expressed as the sum of two primes.
4) Apple + square root = banana.

More realistic examples:

1) The earth orbits the sun.
2) The earth is donut shaped.
3) Black holes evaporate.
4) The chas model may open the way towards further research both in relationships between energy, sound and matter, and in those areas where resonance, beat, spin and other phenomena related to waves are studied. We see here the helix effect and the torsion of the set (section 4.9) determined by the natural interweaving of the differences from harmonic partials 2, 3 and 5.

Kees


Kees, I still hope that the chas model "..may open the way towards further research...".

Try your own educational point 1) 1+1=2 and guess what, together with the rest, inspired the "Revising the musical equal temperament" paper.

I thought you would parse your triviality above. Tell us, what tells you that a researcher that is not you yourself would admit a bias in their investigation?

Based on your 35 years of experience in research, are you saying that where you work that is common practice?

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by BDB
I keep wondering how many pianos could have been tuned in the time wasted on this topic!


Well, BDB, I tuned six pianos today in a school. How about you?.......

.


With a chas preparatory tuning on each one.


With the best I could do in the given time-window.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.


This is the only part of your response worth commenting on. I am showing respect to other posters by warning them about how you are deceiving them, which of course is being outrageously disrespectful on your part. I also devoted much time to you, until I realized that you were being deliberately deceitful. That is very different than merely being unknowing or confused.
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/29/17 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.


This is the only part of your response worth commenting on. I am showing respect to other posters by warning them about how you are deceiving them, which of course is being outrageously disrespectful on your part. I also devoted much time to you, until I realized that you were being deliberately deceitful. That is very different than merely being unknowing or confused.


Jeff,

Here is one more "true self" of mine.

If you (and Kees - I believe), for some reasons want to warn other posters on Chas being a fake or crack-pottery, you ought to equip yourselves with other tools and sort out a better strategy.

You state that Chas is a fake, yet... you could grasp numerically the Chas scale ratio, you could also graph some simulations and even acknowledge that there is a difference if 12ths and 15ths have the common note at the top or at the bottom. That is (I learnt today) because you "..devoted much time" to me (??) and look, you are still alive.

Yes, I understand that in your mind, if I were "truly altruistic", I should have been "..delighted that others...", in your mind I should have been "..overjoyed when shown...", and "..enthusiastic to see..." (see post below), and I should have"..embraced the value of...", but that didn't happen (sob) and for you that proves that I am not "truly altruistic". So, you conclude that I am "..creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him (edit: read myself) through that idol."

Please, do not lol.

Chas is a fake (see graphs regarding iH), so I am deceiving other posters, "..which of course is being outrageously disrespectful..", the proof being that I am not "truly altruistic". That is why you warn posters, stating that Chas is a fake.

Oh..., that will cost you one more pint. smile Though, honestly, that is a disaster. You could say that you do not like the results, that you do not like those intervals the way they are tempered or, staying more on the fake side, that I brag about things that I cannot put into practice. Something like that, you may post your own tunings, I think that some posters may trust your ear and perhaps your skill better than your pirouetting.

Ah, yes, I should not forget to say that, IMHO, you and Kees seem to underestimate people's intelligence. That can be a serious mistake.

Kees says continuously that Chas is crack-pottery, yet... he could see that a German colleague of his was able to compare 12th-root-of-two with other modern ET's using a different model, and was able to add on today's common understanding on equal temperament. What could he tell posters about? About "bias in investigation". No way, too clumsy, how can posters take his educational 1+1=2?

And all the others, in PW or elsewhere, with whom I have already shared... How can you and Kees possibly think that your insults will keep posters safe from this scourge? smile

To All, have a nice w.e.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 12:02 AM


Appendix:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Jeff,

Thank you for sharing your reasoning. I guess your interpretation may have something to do with your bias, and if that was the case, like for fans of sports teams or political parties, I would have no reason for trying to change your opinion. But at least I can reply and try, as usual, to clarify on your points.

You wrote: ..."You claim altruistic motives, that you are doing all this for the sake of Chas and not for yourself? Your actions speak otherwise, shaman."...

I do not understand if "shaman" is to be understood as a compliment or what. Anyway, yes, I am sharing the Chas theory and practice for other colleagues' benefit.

..."..Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it."...

For what I know, a theory cannot be "a fake", it can be correct or incorrect, depending on how well it describes reality.

..."..If this was not true, he would not have pulled the trickery regarding inharmonicity in his paper, showing a linear graph in one instance and showing non-linear results in another."...

You are talking about graphs that correctly "represent" the relative (correct) figures, no more, no less. For you that is a trick, but fact is that those graphs are mere representations. In general, graphs may contain an error, but the validity of a theory has nothing to do with errors of that kind.

..."..In discussing Chas, if he were truly altruistic, he would be delighted that others have also used equal beating 12ths and 17ths to produce their own, optimum stretch."...

I do not see what difference it would make onto the Chas theory if I were selfish or altruistic, anyway... I was happy when I learned that Bill was using 12ths and 15ths for tuning octaves, and I was positive about that method, I said that it could provide a handy rule for expanding the temperament. Perhaps you could be "delighted", personally speaking I don't expand the temperament by tuning octaves only.

..."..Likewise, he would have been overjoyed when shown more elegant mathematical ways to obtain the Chas theoretical stretch number..."...

I do remember your formula, perhaps more "elegant" in your eyes, and I was happy seeing that you could eventually elaborate on that. I remember saying that that formula calculates the Chas ratio, but does not represent the reality I wanted to represent with the Chas algorithm and the relative parameters.

..."..and enthusiastic to see that it could be done whether the common note was on the top or the bottom."...

Sorry, I cannot see what that has to do with being altruistic and the validity of Chas. I am enthusiastic when I share my own experience and I mentioned that, when I expand, I do not use a spanner nor a double spanner. All intervals, with their beat-rates, contribute to shaping a "form", I think I said a beating-whole?

..."..Further, being an aural tuner, he would have embraced the value of having the common note on top because of the aural checks involved."...

For me, the "practical" value is when we interrelate all intervals, that is what I do and that is what I can share when it comes to practice.

..."..None of this happened. At first, years ago, he would become indignant, showing his true self."...

I believe we may show more than one "true self", perhaps depending on the insults, on the insinuations and on the mockery, and on deceiving and/or hijacking attempts we get from different types of posters.

..."..This was counter productive, so now he is using a soft approach pretending innocence."...

Let me say that that is your own conjecture, perhaps you would like to be depicted as a person that pretends something? I think you have a different person in mind.

..."..And yet it still comes through the cracks. Here he is now questioning Kees' credentials, which really doesn't matter; trying to shift the conversation away from himself; trying to change the focus from what is right to who is right."...

Hmm... With Kees the story is a bit different. I can ignore his arrogance, his ignorance when it comes to piano tuning practice, his bias, even him stating that Chas is crack-pottery like a broken record, I can do with that. But recently he made a serious statement that could defame a researcher, that I cannot tolerate. On the other hand, I look forward to shifting this conversation away from my psychology, from you and from Kees, and focus on what I would like to share.

..."..Folks, this is a case of someone creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him through that idol. And watch out if you question this!"...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 03:26 AM

Alfredo can't produce any counter arguments to the criticisms offered here, and is resorting to character assassination and quoting himself.

I think most readers of this thread are intelligent enough to draw the right conclusion.

Kees
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes
Posted By: Toni Goldener

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 10:08 AM

I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by DoelKees

Alfredo can't produce any counter arguments to the criticisms offered here,


If only you were able to "offer" some reasonable criticism, Kees... You can only produce serious insinuations, continuously. That is what Alfredo can see.

Originally Posted by DoelKees

and is resorting to character assassination and quoting himself.


Whatever Alfredo is doing, you must stop defaming people.

BTW, one poster had lamented the activity you mention, I am not sure about his name, was it Phil "the cycling tuner"? Anyway, he lamented exactly the "character assassination" that you and two others had been performing then, and that was some years ago. Same story, same insults, same insinuations, same rubbish, no constructive criticism whatsoever. In fact, what type of "criticism" can go on for such a long time?

Originally Posted by DoelKees

I think most readers of this thread are intelligent enough to draw the right conclusion.

Kees


That is the least. More important is that also in a Forum you behave like a responsible adult.

Please, clarify what you meant with "..bias in investigation.." when commenting Professor Haye Hinrichsen's results, explain how you can call that "criticism".

Originally Posted by DoelKees

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.

Kees


Let us know how scientific researchers can look "..for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.".
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 01:39 PM


Yep, it was Phil D., the cycling tuner, November 27th, 2011, when Ian Russel, Jake Johnson and I were discussing some issues.

On November 19th, 2011, I had received this positive feedback in the first Chas thread:

Originally Posted by ChickGrand

Alfredo,

I just read your paper "A NEW MODEL OF INTERPRETATION OF SOME ACOUSTIC PHENOMENA CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM – C.HA.S."

Having spent some 25 years editing some hundreds of chemical engineering technical papers, I'm well acquainted with such tables and graphs. It's interesting to see your elegant approach to the whole point of distributing those semitones to create coherence in *difference* of the partials. I really like the notion of self-ordering (and the analogy of the fractal) and applying that form of math to the geometry of sound to achieve coherence. If that requires scrapping the 2:1 octave, I'm convinced enough about the beauty of your thinking to want to give it a go in tuning my piano (9-footer, low inharmonicity). So do we have instructions on how to go about tuning from scratch here? (Forgive me if I've missed that here). I could sort it out for myself, since you've provided the math (and I might approach it from that perspective anyway first, as I think it'd be instructive). The concept of the "chorale" seems to me to be the whole point and your effort to describe that mathematically is fascinating.

Rick



But the "..character assassination", in that first thread like in other threads, had started right from the beginning.

Here is the link, November 22nd, 2011:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1194874/62.html
.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes


You are right, Max. Nobody would attempt that.
I asked it as more of a rhetorical question, the politest form of the lowest form of humor and I apologise to you.
Posted By: rXd

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max


All checks are good if they are used appropriately and in conjunction with other checks. Certainly not at the expense of other checks The example you cite is useable provided the narrow minor third bets faster than the wide major third and you are using them as a sort of comparison so that if anything wildly different you would know that somethings wrong somewhere in the previously tuned notes . I will often use the major third that you cite instead of taking my hand off the lever to reach a M10th or 17th. The minor third also in comparison with its major sixth ‘reflection ‘.

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Checks are essential to make the piano provably in tune. I have pointed out to conductors and producers intonation differences in ensembles. If you are asked to advise in this capacity, I don’t know any real musician who would accept, “no, well, yes. Er, -um you see, well, I tuned it to the twelfth you see.....”. I would be heartily laughed at. Musicians are educated these days and I am part of that education. They know what an octave is, everything it means an d how it functions.

By the way, Max, somewhere you mentioned string players going sharp upwards of the fifth octave. The good ones don’t. Some old famous ones did and some of the current crop did when they were younger but we don’t have to be good to be famous, do we?

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 09/30/17 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.


I apologize. The theory has nothing to due with the sound, which is what you are striving for. I wish you luck. There have been many tuners that others have tried to emulate, and even with the best instructions, it just doesn't turn out that way. Bernard Stopper comes to mind along with that story with the "Schubert" tuning. Alfredo may be another.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.
Well, if you can't be bothered to spend an hour or so scanning the 500 or so posts in this thread, maybe you should ask Alfredo where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament in this thread and if he has not produced such posts himself in this tread, ask him why not.
Originally Posted by TheTuner
Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
That is entirely the fault of Alfredo who decided to copy some replies in another thread over here (bad manner IMHO) and continue the "discussion" here.

Kees
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes


You are right, Max. Nobody would attempt that.
I asked it as more of a rhetorical question, the politest form of the lowest form of humor and I apologise to you.

I'm take yours apologise
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max


All checks are good if they are used appropriately and in conjunction with other checks. Certainly not at the expense of other checks The example you cite is useable provided the narrow minor third bets faster than the wide major third and you are using them as a sort of comparison so that if anything wildly different you would know that somethings wrong somewhere in the previously tuned notes . I will often use the major third that you cite instead of taking my hand off the lever to reach a M10th or 17th. The minor third also in comparison with its major sixth ‘reflection ‘.

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Checks are essential to make the piano provably in tune. I have pointed out to conductors and producers intonation differences in ensembles. If you are asked to advise in this capacity, I don’t know any real musician who would accept, “no, well, yes. Er, -um you see, well, I tuned it to the twelfth you see.....”. I would be heartily laughed at. Musicians are educated these days and I am part of that education. They know what an octave is, everything it means an d how it functions.

By the way, Max, somewhere you mentioned string players going sharp upwards of the fifth octave. The good ones don’t. Some old famous ones did and some of the current crop did when they were younger but we don’t have to be good to be famous, do we?

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?

Thank you, rXd.
I hope that with 10 I do something like this yours, as you say, "mirrored reflection" to 6 sixth
The fact that the stringers always try to climb their upper is their right, I suppose. They depend and are in captivity from the design of their violins. I do not blame them for trying to take upper, if it's sharp key tonality. The old school does not allow such " horse's quick splashes"
As for the sharpness, I'm a supporter of classical traditions in music. They must be unshakable, I suppose. Anyone who wants eats dishes with hot pepper and Persian garlic should prepare their in other restaurants
regards,
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.

Your pupil TheTuner is complaining that there is no information on how to tune the Chas temperament aurally in this thread, despite the title. Content free off-topic posts like this undoubtedly contribute to his judgement.

Maybe you could explain to him how when you tune Stopper temperament on single strings, this gets magically transformed in to C.HA.S.Ⓡ when you tune the unisons.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.


I apologize. The theory has nothing to due with the sound, which is what you are striving for. I wish you luck. There have been many tuners that others have tried to emulate, and even with the best instructions, it just doesn't turn out that way. Bernard Stopper comes to mind along with that story with the "Schubert" tuning. Alfredo may be another.


Well, Jeff, let me say that in this case it is the sound, I mean the final result, that has to do with the theory. I understand what you say about instructions, but you may agree that your experience is... your experience.
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/01/17 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.

Your pupil TheTuner is complaining that there is no information on how to tune the Chas temperament aurally in this thread, despite the title. Content free off-topic posts like this undoubtedly contribute to his judgement.

Maybe you could explain to him how when you tune Stopper temperament on single strings, this gets magically transformed in to C.HA.S.Ⓡ when you tune the unisons.

Kees


I believe Toni has complained about something else, but... never mind.

I do not tune Stopper temperament on single strings, Kees, and I would never use "StopperStimmung duodecime tuning tool", bear this in mind, otherwise it might get confusing.

The Chas preparatory tuning curve, when tuning center strings in a certain range (more often the "cantabile"), may overlap steeper ET curves, as in a continuum. Those who need some "pure" examples may think of pure 26ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 12ths or even pure 5ths, if that can help anticipating any pitch settling in a particular range.

No magic then, just physics, like acoustics, like optics. Some snails are so small that a careless eye could see them motionless but, in fact, perhaps they are moving. And a biased eye could even miss them altogether and... step on them. As I have said, different orders of magnitude matter.

Please, Kees, do not worry if I go off-topic sometime, I am confident that I can keep this thread on track. And do not worry about the amount of information in this thread, think about quality instead.

You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.

You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.".
.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf

.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.
You keep repeating that like a broken record. It's called a "loaded question", like when I'd ask you "how do you manage beating your wife in your marriage". Obviously I'm not going to answer.
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."
The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about. I have no intention or ability to simplify it even further if you still don't understand it.

Kees
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.
You keep repeating that like a broken record. It's called a "loaded question", like when I'd ask you "how do you manage beating your wife in your marriage". Obviously I'm not going to answer.
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."
The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about. I have no intention or ability to simplify it even further if you still don't understand it.

Kees


Kees, do not worry about readers who may lack some technical background, in case wait for them to ask.

Be more careful when you write on a public Forum, your words (quoted above) sound like an absurd insinuation.

If possible, write your own stuff somewhere else.
.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 07:45 AM

What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Nothing wrong with that for pitch raises, this is all well known. And by the way, initially the preparatory tuning in this thread was not described as a first pass tuning to be completed with all strings (including unisons), followed by a second pass, but was described as the tuning form to be tuned for the middle strings, before the unisons are to be completed.

At the beginning of this thread, Alfredo claimed to tune "apparently pure" twelfths on the middle string from A3 upwards (this IS a pure twelfth ET for the said region if intervals progress correctly; and IF extended coherently, it is also a pure twelfth ET down into the bass region, resp. over the whole range of the piano) here is what he wrote:

Quote

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.


No distinction here at all that on some different amount of pitch raises one would require something other than pure twelfths to achieve Chas Et finally.

Later, (possibly when he understood that he had a wrong theoretical pure twelfth model in his mind*) he opted to throw pitch raising into his arguments (which indeed requires further stretching curves)... Too me, a simple try to mangle well known pitch settling from pitch raising into the discussion to jump out of the cooking water pot.

The question is: Does a ready tuned equal temperament tuning has a different size of intervals when measuring it on single strings or when measuring it on free unisons (which would be equivalent to tuning middle strings first and completing unisons later, if no pitch raise is required). Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or by using advanced tuning software (i know at least one who can just deal with that...) Definitively does a pure twelfth ET on the middle strings not shrink into a Chas ET by just measuring middle strings vs full unisons.

*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Thanks, Chris, for your feedback.

Perhaps we should say that there are different methods, different techniques and routines. I believe that those differences will somehow affect the final result. Some factors that come to mind (nothing new):

How the soundboard is loaded with more tension, from bass to treble or from the middle range to the other ranges;
If tuning with a strip-mute or not;
If tuning aurally, with an ETD or hybrid ;
If playing while tuning or not;
If pounding or not;
How the string is put in tension;
How the string is stretched and stabilized on the NSL;
How the pin is set;
The number of intervals used as a check, while expanding;
Unisons as you go or not;
Quality of unisons;
Accuracy, in general.

You mention "minor pitch raises", and if you mean some 3-5 Hz on A4 it would be what I often encounter on pianos that are not tuned every six months, plus weather and bla..bla.. That is quite normal for me (I guess for many colleagues too), and perhaps I too would call that a minor pitch raise, fact is that in those cases I do not tune a first pass and a second pass, I normally tune one pass only. This, on its own, could be enough to explain why I address pitch sagging. Maybe we actually expect the same phenomenon, after the first pass (for you), after the only one pass for me.

The other issue worth mentioning is "orders of magnitude": in my experience, all there is in between minus 5 Hz (on A4) and zero, and above (in case) needs to be considered, even if we would have to call that a very, very tiny pitch raise. In fact, A4 might be at 440, but the rest of the piano? That is what I address as well, so, also in those cases when possibly you would do only one pass, also then I expect a (relative) very, very tiny pitch drop, or sagging.

The difference between a beat less fifth and a very, very slightly narrow fifth is incredibly thin, likewise the difference between a beat-less 12th and a 12th very, very slightly narrow. And it is the same with all the other intervals, either on their own or when we interrelate them together, those are the very very tiny differences I normally address.

Kind regards

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Nothing wrong with that for pitch raises, this is all well known. And by the way, initially the preparatory tuning in this thread was not described as a first pass tuning to be completed with all strings (including unisons), followed by a second pass, but was described as the tuning form to be tuned for the middle strings, before the unisons are to be completed.

At the beginning of this thread, Alfredo claimed to tune "apparently pure" twelfths on the middle string from A3 upwards (this IS a pure twelfth ET for the said region if intervals progress correctly; and IF extended coherently, it is also a pure twelfth ET down into the bass region, resp. over the whole range of the piano) here is what he wrote:

Quote

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.


No distinction here at all that on some different amount of pitch raises one would require something other than pure twelfths to achieve Chas Et finally.

Later, (possibly when he understood that he had a wrong theoretical pure twelfth model in his mind*) he opted to throw pitch raising into his arguments (which indeed requires further stretching curves)... Too me, a simple try to mangle well known pitch settling from pitch raising into the discussion to jump out of the cooking water pot.

The question is: Does a ready tuned equal temperament tuning has a different size of intervals when measuring it on single strings or when measuring it on free unisons (which would be equivalent to tuning middle strings first and completing unisons later, if no pitch raise is required). Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or by using advanced tuning software (i know at least one who can just deal with that...) Definitively does a pure twelfth ET on the middle strings not shrink into a Chas ET by just measuring middle strings vs full unisons.

*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.




Hi Bernhard,

Beyond tuning, temperament theory, practice and whatever we may discuss, I would like you to be polite. Then you can ask whatever you like.

I would like to reassure you about the fact that I do not talk about pitch-raise. I address very very tiny differences, yet aurally detectable. Nobody here is trying to "jump out of the cooking water pot.", I hope you understand.

You quoted a part of the flowchart I shared, I can confirm what I wrote:

"...I draw the form with SBI and RBI."...

That means that I do not use only 12ths.

"...To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.".

With that I meant to give a general guideline to those who might want to try the sequence I use and the steps relative to the expansion of the temperament.

Beat-less 12ths as an average-convenient interval and a "reliable check" to be used in combination with 5ths, octaves, double octaves and 17ths. This should reassure you on the fact that I do not expand by using only one interval, like with a spanner; 12ths have the same rank as any other interval and are tuned "temporarily" like all the other intervals. Beat-less 12ths is not the final result I look for, I would like you to bear that in mind.

As for theory, I do not have any issue, I have already replied on that and we would be going in circle.

You mentioned some relevant factors: " ..Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or..."...

I would also add "tension balancing in the string lengths", "bridge tilting", "sound-board loading-and-sagging", and perhaps a few other factors related to specific procedures.

In any case, it is those "..rather small differences (if present at all).." that I address, very rarely could I proceed on center strings and have the pleasure to hear what I like, there and then, only on pianos that were being used in competitions, tunings that I would refine day after day.

Perhaps I ought to repeat that between a beat-less 5th and a 5th with a tiny tiny narrow beat the difference is incredibly small, likewise between a beat-less 12th and a 12th with a faintly narrow beat. Those are the differences I address.

I get the impression that your idea is that I actually tune what you are spreading, i.e. a "pure 12ths" stretch scheme (where 12ths have a "minimum amount of beating"). Perhaps I can reassure you saying that the stretch scheme that I adopt in practice is "s" variable (see the Chas algorithm): I may decide to use beat-less 5ths when I expand on middle-strings, or beat-less 12ths or a stretch that might be more similar to pure 19ths or anything in between two of those schemes: the stretch will depend on some factors that need to be managed attentively, in order to get as close as possible to our (final) target.
.
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 08:02 PM

Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/02/17 09:09 PM


Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown


Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

Look, this is quite correct, .."..It could be pure or tempered anything".

On the other hand, this is not correct, .."..done in any matter whatever!.."...

Selfish as I may be, I will explain you a couple of other things, I am sure you will grasp the concept even better, in time.

RBI's can only be (and sound) "tempered", also 4ths and 5ths can only be (and sound) tempered, please note, to some extent.

When you tune 5ths, interrelating them to other already-tuned intervals, if you are tuning middle strings only - say - from D4-A4 up towards the treble, make 5ths sound closer and closer to beat-less. Check them carefully, because 5ths are crucial when playing melodically.

Octaves too need to sound tempered, though in the mid-register you ought to tune them so "compact" that their very slow beating can hardly be perceived.

Tuning center strings,12ths and double octaves, together with RBI's, octaves and fifths, will indicate if your tuning curve is getting too "salty" or too "loose".

If, on the other hand, you have understood "..done in any matter whatever!..", hmm.. perhaps you need to tell me where you read that or double-check your bias and make sure that it is still... human smile

Oh... C'mon... I am joking, I know you were only being... Jeff.
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/03/17 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.
Interestingly, that elementary error has not been corrected in that chas paper. I guess he doesn't care that it's wrong.

Still, being wrong is better than being meaningless, like when he writes:

"The fundamentals, with the differences related to harmonic partials 3 and 4, determine helixes of differences on a third plane. These helixes cause the torsion in this kind of set. The equal proportion 2:1, with its monotone differences curves, blocks this phenomenon."

Kees
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/03/17 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown

If you search pianoworld for the many previous chas threads (google chas pianoworld) and scan them it should be obvious that this "theory" has been thoroughly debunked many years ago. I guess creating new "chas" threads not referencing all these past refutations is Alfredo's way of keeping the myth alive.

So we are asked to believe we have a theoretical chas theory, a practical chas theory, which is something completely different and undefined, then recognize theory and practice are "completely different" (which is nonsense), and then realize the theory of the practical chas is also just a pre-form or whatever, and its theory is also just theory and so on and on until someone falls for all the gobbledygook, tunes a piano decently after reading some of the chas stuff, then claims it is a"chas" tuning.

And anyone stating this or similar things gets accused of "disrespect".

Kees
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/03/17 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/03/17 04:50 PM


Hi Bernhard,

Coming back home, I saw that you had posted. Where is your post gone?

Cheers
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 10:35 AM


Hi Bernhard,

I would like to make sure that you have actually understood why your whole review was erroneous.

Let me guess what happened then. In the Chas paper, section 4.5, you read this:

"... In distances of octaves, (5*2)^(1/40), (10*2)^(1/52) etc. this ratio modifies towards 2^(1/12)."

For some reason you misunderstood and thought that I was addressing the scale octave_values relative to those ratios.

Actually, I was addressing different scale "pure" ratios, in order to check how they progress, octave after octave.

So, there I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1.

I have also re-checked Table 6 and section 4.6 and I confirm, all the figures and the relative graphs are correct.

Please, let me know if now you have grasped those sections. If not, I did a screen-shot of your latest post, the one you deleted, and we could look at those individual points together.

I am sorry, you thought that wrong formulas could take me to wrong theoretical conclusions and to wrong expectations in my practice.

Have a close look also at Table 6, those comparisons are really eloquent.

Regards, a.c.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 03:23 PM


Hi Alfredo,

just to understand your interpretation of "pure scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Chas does not, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 ?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 05:12 PM


Sorry, Bernhard, what are "pure scaleETs"? What do you mean? Pure-ratio ET scales?
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 05:40 PM


Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 06:02 PM


I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.



Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 06:59 PM


I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/04/17 08:19 PM

Bernhard, if you see that we are going in circle, please try to make an effort, wording your question in a different way.

The Chas algorithm (as you have certainly noticed) uses two partials of the harmonic series. As a consequence, the resulting scale ratio does not lead to one integer partial somewhere across the scale. That is why I wrote "I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation."

Edit: I have seen that you had posted more. Here below is your latest post:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?




Help me understand, Bernhard, were you checking my expertise?
.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/17 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.

Wise decision. I'm following suit.

Kees
PS Just to correct some disinformation A posted after copying my posts here to yet another thread. He states 4 people "defamed" him (including me of course) over the last 8 years.

However if you check A's profile and browse his posts and see who "defamed" this chas "theory" you'll get a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/17 05:28 AM

Kees,

Please post your comments here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1916609/1/c-ha-s-model-climates-and-comments.html
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
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Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/17 06:53 AM


Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1

You say (here and in your Chas paper) that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1


my questions was/is:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
[/quote]

your latest response was:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
As a consequence, the resulting scale ratio does not lead to one integer partial somewhere across the scale."

I was not asking if Chas ratio does LEAD to one integer partial somewhere across the scale, but

Does Chas, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1 or not? (Like you said that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1)
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/05/17 12:59 PM


Bernhard,

My reply is the one above. If you have a point (and I hope you do) just make it.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/06/17 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.

Wise decision. I'm following suit.

Kees
PS Just to correct some disinformation A posted after copying my posts here to yet another thread. He states 4 people "defamed" him (including me of course) over the last 8 years.

However if you check A's profile and browse his posts and see who "defamed" this chas "theory" you'll get a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years.


Hi Kees,

Perhaps you thought I would let you get away with that nth deceitful post of yours, but I can't. This is how “true” I can be, being a piano tuner.

You report "...a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years...", and you state that they would have acted like a slanderer, meaning like you.

I remember only a few others that didn't seem to approve: Bill and BDB - at some point - thought my sharing was a meaningless effort, two others didn't like my verbiage or my opinion on pure 12ths. Actually, right at the beginning one poster (Roy123) helped me solve an issue, though complaining that the paper was difficult to read and it could have been "much shorter, crisper, and more lucid.". I am still grateful for that help.

In any case, all posters were fairly respectful and never carried out a systematic defamatory action as you did. Other posters were grateful, but this is another story.

Having said that, it is no problem with my sharing, but I believe you owe an apology before you leave, no, no to me, to the researcher you insulted when you wrote “…Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.”.

In a later post you explained: “The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about.”

Now, you call that “plain-language”, but it insinuates unequivocally a case of "scientific misconduct". Haye's paper was not "..really about.." that.

The sooner you apologise, the better, then go.
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Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/07/17 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?




Hi Bernhard,

It took me a while to understand your last question, perhaps due to our lexicon.

You were asking: …”Does Chas, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1 or not? (Like you said that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1).”…

In my paper I had compared “pure-interval” ratios describing their trend correctly, and you asked me about the Chas incremental ratio, so that (I guess) I would say that also the latter converges on 2.

I could not understand your question because, actually, one could well grasp the answer from Table 6, or from the Conclusion: …“This system sheds light on a harmonic sequence, the series of n/n+1 values (section 4.5) which the harmonic partial values 3 and 5 also (edit: read also) converge towards in their respective logarithmic scales.”…

As a consequence, I do not really understand the point you wanted to make (let me know), and I get the idea that you may not have understood my point yet (let me know).

It is relevant that all ratios ≠ 2^(1/12) converge on 2, they will produce some “differences” close to the n/n+1 sequence shown in Table 6.

“Differences” is what I have focused on, and “differences” is what the Chas model is about.

About one recent post of yours:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

I don´t see what is wrong in attacking a wrong theory.
Arguments please. Only saying my guess is wrong isn´t an argument. In my view my guess is proven as it correlates with the wrong model you have in mind about pure twelfths ET (not only about pure twelfths ET, but also the pure thirds ET model you mentioned in the same section. This proves to me that there is a lack of understanding of the basics of equal temperaments). The misinterpretation of ET is what makes you believe that Chas ET is superior over other ones. This of course needs some attack.



Well, as you have seen, you were wrong. Do not worry, I am not asking for your apologies.

I am sorry that eight years have gone since my first sharing, and during all this time you may have been misled by your own wrong interpretation of the figures contained in the Chas paper. It is evident why, as a result, you concluded that there were errors in that paper, and that I had been misled by those errors when interpreting my tuning practice.

So, I may have to clarify that – first - I approached practice, only afterwards theory. Not too many, but good 27 years of practice for achieving what I wanted to hear, and some three years of theory and numbers for sharing it.

If possible, I would appreciate if you could confirm that you have understood why the Chas algorithm addresses not one but two “pure” partials and "differences", instead of one "pure" interval.

I would also appreciate if you could rectify your statement about Chas being a wrong theory, or a wrong model, or a wrong ratio, possibly avoiding – in the future – more insinuations and/or statements that you cannot prove true.

I hope a new season will come, with further experimentation and more... respectful sharing.

Regards, a.c.
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Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/17 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.


Hi Kent,

Good to see you here.

In my experience, the amount of sagging is never the same, that depends on the individual piano. Yes, I too think that some experimentation would be interesting, also taking into consideration different/small orders of magnitude.
.


Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.


Hi Bernhard,

In a different thread you wrote: ..."Minimal overall beating means clean to me. I use that description (minimum overall beating) to make clear that if speaking of a pure or clear interval on a piano, there are generally all but at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency, but are tuned to a target, where they sound perfectly clean, still, beat-less, same as you possibly demonstrated successfully in Canada."...

Please, bear in mind that pure 12ths is one possibility. When tuning center strings, we may choose to tune even pure fifths, or a milder stretch like pure 26th, that depends on the condition of the piano and on the range we are tuning, and it may vary depending on how we expand the temperament.

I was hoping to get a reply from you, after the storm you created.

Regards, a.c.
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Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/12/17 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.



Your procedure would demonstrate only a tuning that is not yet complete, nothing more.

I tune unisons as I go, and go back to refine and correct errors as needed.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/13/17 03:52 PM


Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.



Your procedure would demonstrate only a tuning that is not yet complete, nothing more.

I tune unisons as I go, and go back to refine and correct errors as needed.



Hi Kent,

I am trying to address one issue at a time.

The first issue is this one: depending on a certain procedure, we may observe a pitch drop while we are tuning.

The above does not address the end result or the number of corrections we would have to make, nor the number of passes we are ready to do.

The one I submitted is one procedure I may use, and it is only meant to reproduce a scenary that may explain why I use steeper stretch curves.

If, looking at that procedure, you can already "hear" the pitch drop I talk about - even on pianos that are "close to pitch" - we may skeep the experimentation and address a second issue. (Edit: Let me know)

On the other hand, that could be a starting point for those wanting to experiment and experience pitch drop at different orders of magnitude.

Regards, a.c.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/23/17 10:36 PM


Naa, this is not the right time, I guess, for trying to sort this out...

I am asked to believe that the theoretical ET "pure" 12ths scheme - in practice - it means only "clean" 12ths.

Bernhard Stopper explains that "clean" is because (*) "...there are generally all but at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency, but are tuned to a target, where they sound perfectly clean, still, beat-less,...". (*)

And we have learnt that (*) "...If speaking of aurally pure 12ths, meaning that the overall beating (sum of beats) among the involved partials caused by non-linearity ( iH, damping, etc) is reduced preferably to the minimum, certainly yes." (*)

That means that the theoretical "pure" 12ths ET will give us - in practice - a "...minimum overall beating..", and we still have to understand whether it will be an aurally narrow or a wide beating.

Perhaps it is to early now... In order to really understand what all that is about we may have to wait another couple of years smile

Kent, you say that you tune unisons as you go, and I would have a sincere/plain question for you, and for any other colleague that tunes the "pure"12ths scheme with an ETA, and for colleagues who tune aurally and may want to join in:

Have you ever heard a 12th that really is "absolutely" beat-less on center strings, meaning pure as... "Pure"?

Thanks in advance.

(*) From this thread: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2670882/1.html
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Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/24/17 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Have you ever heard a 12th that really is "absolutely" beat-less on center strings, meaning pure as... "Pure"?




Why do you ask? Since I tune unisons as I go, I would rarely if ever listen to center string 12ths.

And...

Why do you ask? Since we expect inharmonicity to make it impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously, we would not expect absolutely pure unisons. That is, even if they sounded pure, careful measurements might show some offset in the coincident partials.

And...

Why do you ask? Assuming you are considering the problem of tuning pure 12th equal temperament, the 12th is only one interval. In a real world situation, the aim is to tune a best-fit compromise, so in a real sense, one cannot tune any one interval until one knows how the other intervals are faring in the sea of inharmonic inconsistency.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/25/17 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Have you ever heard a 12th that really is "absolutely" beat-less on center strings, meaning pure as... "Pure"?




Why do you ask? Since I tune unisons as I go, I would rarely if ever listen to center string 12ths.

And...

Why do you ask? Since we expect inharmonicity to make it impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously, we would not expect absolutely pure unisons. That is, even if they sounded pure, careful measurements might show some offset in the coincident partials.

And...

Why do you ask? Assuming you are considering the problem of tuning pure 12th equal temperament, the 12th is only one interval. In a real world situation, the aim is to tune a best-fit compromise, so in a real sense, one cannot tune any one interval until one knows how the other intervals are faring in the sea of inharmonic inconsistency.





Thank you, Kent, for your reply.

…“Why do you ask? Since I tune unisons as I go, I would rarely if ever listen to center string 12ths.”…

You are right, I could have deduced that, but I preferred to double-check. Our practice/procedure is pretty different, though I could not exclude that you knew already about different results, and I ask because I wonder if you have an idea of how “pure”, meaning perfectly beat-less a 12th can be, on center strings, and how they sound, quality-wise.

This conversation we are having, in my idea, may explain our early divergent comments on the pure 12ths scheme, remember some years ago? Well, I am tempted to conclude that we were and we are talking about two different tunings, and that might be why our opinions were (and are) different.

Remember how we could believe that our tunings are a “variant” of 12th-root-of-two, due to iH and all the rest? Hmm… To offer you an anticipation, with pure 12ths we could be facing a similar case… At the end it might be the other “variant”, due to iH and all the rest wink

Anyway, let us take one thing at a time.

..."..Why do you ask? Since we expect inharmonicity to make it impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously, we would not expect absolutely pure unisons.”…

I’d better clarify, I am not asking how “pure” a unison can sound, I wonder if you know how “pure” a 12th can sound, on center strings, and what that particular stretch sounds like, musically speaking, in a span of four octaves.

In general, I do consider what you wrote above, adding that it is “..impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously..”, I do not see any meaning in a theoretical ET scheme that suggests one pure interval.

…“That is, even if they sounded pure, careful measurements might show some offset in the coincident partials.”…

As I am not sure what you mean with “..if they..”, I do not know any more if you are talking about 12ths or unisons. I am sorry. Would you clarify that for me?

..."..Why do you ask? Assuming you are considering the problem of tuning pure 12th equal temperament, the 12th is only one interval.”…

I agree, in this present case “pure 12th” is meant to be “the one” interval that should denote that particular “equal temperament” stretch scheme.

In my idea (and daily experience), “pure” means pure, i.e. beat-less, perfectly still; now I hear you saying “clean”, recently I have read about “minimum overall beating”, and I feel like I may have lost (and we may lose) the common theoretical reference as well as the practical, objective (and easy) check.

Take the 12th-root-of-two stretch scheme - for example - would you describe that as an octave with “minimum overall beating”? Take “pure 5ths”, would that be fifths with a “minimum overall beating”? And pure 19ths or 26ths?

Where is the gap, I wonder, is it between theory and practice, as Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra would suggest, or between what we actually hear (plus our human bias, as a PW friend would suggest) and what we try to describe/represent (name, call, denominate, how to say?)?

...“..In a real world situation, the aim is to tune a best-fit compromise, so in a real sense, one cannot tune any one interval until one knows how the other intervals are faring in the sea of inharmonic inconsistency.”

Hmm… Maybe this is where our reports may differ, based on our individual experience, and I am sincerely happy to know about your “real world”.

In my real world, my target is not a “best-fit compromise”, every single time I aim at a very precise ET “form”, like a network. Sure, inharmonicity and other things (read weird scaling, pitch sagging etc.) can somehow modify the form, but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme, that would be unfortunate, I would consider that to be my fault.

Back to my point, in my experience, on center strings, we can well achieve an ET-curve with aurally (perfectly) beat-less 12ths in a range of four octaves or so, then we could judge that theoretical scheme (aurally/musically) regardless of unisons or else, and then we could decide whether we like that stretch or what. That is why I was proposing my procedure a few posts ago.

What do you think, could that be a valid double-check?

Regards, a.c.
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Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/25/17 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford


Since we expect inharmonicity to make it impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously, we would not expect absolutely pure unisons.




Typo. Sorry. Should have said:

Since we expect inharmonicity to make it impossible to tune 3:1 and 6:2 and 9:3, etc. to be pure simultaneously, we would not expect absolutely pure 12ths.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/25/17 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


In my real world, my target is not a “best-fit compromise”, every single time I aim at a very precise ET “form”, like a network. Sure, inharmonicity and other things (read weird scaling, pitch sagging etc.) can somehow modify the form, but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme, that would be unfortunate, I would consider that to be my fault.

Back to my point, in my experience, on center strings, we can well achieve an ET-curve with aurally (perfectly) beat-less 12ths in a range of four octaves or so, then we could judge that theoretical scheme (aurally/musically) regardless of unisons or else, and then we could decide whether we like that stretch or what. That is why I was proposing my procedure a few posts ago.



"but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme."

So, which is more important, the overall progression of the temperament, or tuning the specific intervals that denote [your] favorite scheme?

I say the progression is more important as denoted by the relative beat speeds of the various tuning intervals. To make individual intervals more important would surely introduce errors elsewhere in other intervals.

I see no benefit to evaluating the stretch with only center strings. (A drawback though would be that I thought you said you tuned center strings more steeply than your end result. So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?) A piano has trichords; I check tunings with all strings tuned and sounding.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/25/17 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


In my real world, my target is not a “best-fit compromise”, every single time I aim at a very precise ET “form”, like a network. Sure, inharmonicity and other things (read weird scaling, pitch sagging etc.) can somehow modify the form, but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme, that would be unfortunate, I would consider that to be my fault.

Back to my point, in my experience, on center strings, we can well achieve an ET-curve with aurally (perfectly) beat-less 12ths in a range of four octaves or so, then we could judge that theoretical scheme (aurally/musically) regardless of unisons or else, and then we could decide whether we like that stretch or what. That is why I was proposing my procedure a few posts ago.



"but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme."

So, which is more important, the overall progression of the temperament, or tuning the specific intervals that denote [your] favorite scheme?

I say the progression is more important as denoted by the relative beat speeds of the various tuning intervals. To make individual intervals more important would surely introduce errors elsewhere in other intervals.

I see no benefit to evaluating the stretch with only center strings. (A drawback though would be that I thought you said you tuned center strings more steeply than your end result. So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?) A piano has trichords; I check tunings with all strings tuned and sounding.


I wrote: .."...but not the specific intervals that denote my favourite scheme."

Hi Kent, you wrote: ...“So, which is more important, the overall progression of the temperament, or tuning the specific intervals that denote [your] favorite scheme?”

They are equally relevant, progression to denote ET and specific intervals in order to denote the model.

…“I say the progression is more important as denoted by the relative beat speeds of the various tuning intervals. To make individual intervals more important would surely introduce errors elsewhere in other intervals.”…

The two things are strictly interrelated when you think in terms of “form”, the progression stands for ET, some individual intervals denote the model.

...“I see no benefit to evaluating the stretch with only center strings. (A drawback though would be that I thought you said you tuned center strings more steeply than your end result. So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?) A piano has trichords; I check tunings with all strings tuned and sounding.”…

Hmm… Are we missing the point? I do tune steeper curves, depending on the piano condition, brand, age, depending on how it reacts while I am tuning etc… But I was inviting you to evaluate pure 12ths on center strings, because on center strings you/we can actually tune truly “pure” 12ths, and tell how we like them. Was not that clear above?

…“..(… So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?)…

That is not so difficult, with a bit of experience you can anticipate the dynamics of the piano you are tuning. And you can always double-check, before and during unisons, and correct where needed.
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Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/26/17 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

They are equally relevant, progression to denote ET and specific intervals in order to denote the model.

…“I say the progression is more important as denoted by the relative beat speeds of the various tuning intervals. To make individual intervals more important would surely introduce errors elsewhere in other intervals.”…

The two things are strictly interrelated when you think in terms of “form”, the progression stands for ET, some individual intervals denote the model.

...“I see no benefit to evaluating the stretch with only center strings. (A drawback though would be that I thought you said you tuned center strings more steeply than your end result. So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?) A piano has trichords; I check tunings with all strings tuned and sounding.”…

Hmm… Are we missing the point?



You make your points and I'll make mine. Thanks.

The width of ET can only be determined by the pattern of beat rates, not by an individual interval.

If you wish to understand why some techs can be so overwhelmingly resistant to following your prescriptions for executing tunings, become adept at tuning with an ETD.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/26/17 06:55 PM


Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

They are equally relevant, progression to denote ET and specific intervals in order to denote the model.

…“I say the progression is more important as denoted by the relative beat speeds of the various tuning intervals. To make individual intervals more important would surely introduce errors elsewhere in other intervals.”…

The two things are strictly interrelated when you think in terms of “form”, the progression stands for ET, some individual intervals denote the model.

...“I see no benefit to evaluating the stretch with only center strings. (A drawback though would be that I thought you said you tuned center strings more steeply than your end result. So how does listening to only center strings evaluate your chosen stretch?) A piano has trichords; I check tunings with all strings tuned and sounding.”…

Hmm… Are we missing the point?



You make your points and I'll make mine. Thanks.

The width of ET can only be determined by the pattern of beat rates, not by an individual interval.

If you wish to understand why some techs can be so overwhelmingly resistant to following your prescriptions for executing tunings, become adept at tuning with an ETD.



Hi Kent,

You wrote: "The width of ET can only be determined by the pattern of beat rates, not by an individual interval."...

We may need a clarification. For how fundamental beats are, I worked on a ET model based on beats, in this sense we may project the very same scenery, you call it "pattern", I call it "web", or network, or beat-whole, ET as a beat-geometry.

On the other hand, an ET model requires only a scale ratio, and the latter could be referred to only one interval, like 12th-root-of-two, or other "one-pure-interval" ratios, as we have seen. One thing you may notice is that those "pure" ratios actually brake the beat "pattern", since they favor an individual zero-beating interval.

..."..If you wish to understand why some techs can be so overwhelmingly resistant to following your prescriptions for executing tunings, become adept at tuning with an ETD."

Hmm... Perhaps we misunderstood. The procedure I posted recently was meant to address one issue: why I tune steeper ET curves. I thought you and Bernhard (and perhaps others) wanted to understand, and so I offered one procedure on which you could elaborate further, even taking measurements with your ETD's and perhaps report on pitch sagging of different magnitude.

Then I asked you: Have you ever heard a 12th that really is "absolutely" beat-less on center strings, meaning pure as... "Pure"?

Now I know that you tune unisons as you go, nevertheless I think it could be interesting if you gave yourself the chance to listen only to center strings, you might be able to check the 12ths you tune (and all the other intervals) much more precisely, hear (or measure) whether those 12ths are actually beat-less, perhaps you could play a beat-less_12ths _ET-scale - on center strings, for once - and let me know how you like it. Above I posted the reason:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

This conversation we are having, in my idea, may explain our early divergent comments on the pure 12ths scheme, remember some years ago? Well, I am tempted to conclude that we were and we are talking about two different tunings, and that might be why our opinions were (and are) different.

Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/27/17 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Now I know that you tune unisons as you go, nevertheless I think it could be interesting if you gave yourself the chance to listen only to center strings, you might be able to check the 12ths you tune (and all the other intervals) much more precisely, hear (or measure) whether those 12ths are actually beat-less, perhaps you could play a beat-less_12ths _ET-scale - on center strings, for once - and let me know how you like it.



You make it very difficult to answer respectfully.

I am a fully qualified aural tuner. I know what it sounds like to listen only to center strings.

I do not believe that I am the one here who needs to broaden my tuning experience.

You would do well to become familiar with visual tuning techniques, but I already suggested that.

I'm done. Bye.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING - 10/27/17 08:37 PM


Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Now I know that you tune unisons as you go, nevertheless I think it could be interesting if you gave yourself the chance to listen only to center strings, you might be able to check the 12ths you tune (and all the other intervals) much more precisely, hear (or measure) whether those 12ths are actually beat-less, perhaps you could play a beat-less_12ths _ET-scale - on center strings, for once - and let me know how you like it.



You make it very difficult to answer respectfully.

I am a fully qualified aural tuner. I know what it sounds like to listen only to center strings.

I do not believe that I am the one here who needs to broaden my tuning experience.

You would do well to become familiar with visual tuning techniques, but I already suggested that.

I'm done. Bye.



Hi Kent,

I am really sorry, I do not understand what is wrong with what I wrote, I would like you to trust me when I say that I try to communicate in the most simple way, trying to be clear and straightforward, never doubting about your expertise and your knowledge.

Possibly, what you wrote or how I happen to misunderstand English could take me to a certain idea. Be sure, the last thing I would do is to show little respect.

My apologies, if I misunderstood it was not intentional.

The reply of mine you quoted above follows that question of mine: "Have you ever heard a 12th that really is "absolutely" beat-less on center strings, meaning pure as... "Pure"?", and your reply: "Why do you ask? Since I tune unisons as I go, I would rarely if ever listen to center string 12ths.".

Now you write: "..I know what it sounds like to listen only to center strings."...

Well, I wish you had told me that straightaway, my reply would have been different.

Today it was a killer, many challenging pianos and a concert prep right at the end... More later on...

Regards, a.c.
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