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In the very near future, I will be moving forward with a DIY approach to a recondition and regulation of the action from my Yamaha G5 Grand Piano. For those of you who missed my other post regarding prior work done to the action, it can be found here..

For the first post, I will list some resources I have run across and plan to follow (overall) to help me along the way. The action will need new hammers and shanks but I unfortunately cannot afford that at the moment. So, I will be hoping to purchase those items in the next 6 months and revisit the action to work those in.

The book I purchased to help. Authur Reblitz Piano Service

Items to service the key bushings
Key Bushing Cauls - https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/piano-key-bushing-cauls/

VS ProFelt - https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/vs-profelt-treatment/

I plan to thoroughly clean the key bed and polish the pins with Flitz and a tool I made, which I'll post pictures of soon.


Videos to help along the way. Please let me know how you all feel about the quality of these videos.







Feel free to add any advice, video links or articles you feel will help the process.

Thank you!
Matt
Another good read for steps to prepare for regulation. - https://masterpianotechnicians.wordpress.com/tag/piano-regulation-step-by-step/
This is really interesting! I am planning myself to do the same thing and was gonna ask for general advices on this forum (I've been a regular participant on the digital piano sub-forum for many years but never here). I guess this thread will also help me, thank you!

A little bit about my project. I want to make a DIY MIDI controller from a grand piano action by using optical sensors. I managed to find an old (probably ~100 years old) 85-key grand piano action which is in a fairly good condition and here's a proof of concept:


I've been playing an acoustic piano upright since I was a kid and I've owned multiple digital pianos but never a real grand piano. I own a Yamaha AvantGrand N1X though, which is a hybrid digital piano with real grand piano action. So, I'm kind of creating a DIY competition to the Yamaha laugh Kidding aside, I'm more after the adventure of doing something like that myself rather than the actual goal. Which is why I'm also interested in reconditioning and regulating the action myself although I can use a skilled piano technician (who found the action for me). I'm relatively skilled with handcraft, etc and for the last year I've been studying in great details how the grand piano works. So, I also started with the Reblitz book. I think I need to replace the white key covers and have already purchased a set of new white plastic covers. Also, many keys (or rather the action parts of those keys) seem to be having something like a friction or rubbing against neighbors. So, I was gonna ask about general advices on how to approach that task and what tools I will need. I hope I can learn that from this thread here, so thanks again.
I'll use this post as the first one to illustrate the process I'm working through. Since I am not a tech, I will only post the items that I run into that I feel should need attention or where I seek guidance. Feel free to provide any advice or feedback that you feel could be beneficial to this endeavor.

The action out of the piano and ready for tear down
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From what I can tell, the shanks and knuckles have served their life. As I am unable to purchased new shanks/knuckles at this time, I will rework these in an attempt to gain a bit more life
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A little before and after comparison. This was the first knuckle I attempted to rework.
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Since the first knuckle came out ok, I went ahead and did all 88. The ones in the middle section of the keyboard are definitely worn more. Overall, I hope it makes a nice improvement.
[Linked Image]

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After the knuckles were done (which took around 3-4 hours), I removed the stack and popped a few keys off. The balance rail key pins are coroded and very sticky.
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I measured the balance rail key pins and the front rail key pins. Once the sizing was verifed, I ordered VS ProFelt and a box of 0.125 and 0.137 cauls to fit as soon as I apply the VS Profelt.
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How did you recondition the knuckles? On some of mine it seems the white core is broken/degrading. I’m wondering what the material of that core is and whether anything can be done or the entire knuckle needs to be replaced.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How did you recondition the knuckles? On some of mine it seems the white core is broken/degrading. I’m wondering what the material of that core is and whether anything can be done or the entire knuckle needs to be replaced.


Slowly worked the groves out using 500 grit sand paper. While taking extra care to maintain the round shape that the knuckle is supposed to have. Before the action goes back in, I will lightly agitate the leather and apply some PTFE powder. Once this is done, I will post pictures.

I'm not sure what is on the inside of the core. Someone more knowledgeable about the physical aspects of the knuckles can probably answer that question.
Hi there,

I tune and regulate my grand piano myself twice a year since quite a long time. Sorry but IMHO the price you paid for what you got recently was outrageous. Piano tuning and regulation is not rocket science, as you might be discovering while working on it. If you have good patience, meticulous attention to detail and if you're good at evaluate/criticize your work, you can fix as many things as you feel comfortable to do. Once you will have fixed the obvious problems (seen on your pics), I recommend you do a complete regulation, starting with bedding/positioning the keyframe, etc.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt


Slowly worked the groves out using 500 grit sand paper. While taking extra care to maintain the round shape that the knuckle is supposed to have.


??? They look thicker than the old ones...
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Hi there,

I tune and regulate my grand piano myself twice a year since quite a long time. Sorry but IMHO the price you paid for what you got recently was outrageous. Piano tuning and regulation is not rocket science, as you might be discovering while working on it. If you have good patience, meticulous attention to detail and if you're good at evaluate/criticize your work, you can fix as many things as you feel comfortable to do. Once you will have fixed the obvious problems (seen on your pics), I recommend you do a complete regulation, starting with bedding/positioning the keyframe, etc.


This is basically what I'm looking to do. Help identify what to do and how it's best to do each step. I plan to address all of the wear items (within reasonable budget) and get some help to go through a complete regulation to exactly match the Yamaha spec sheet they provided me.

Originally Posted by Andymania
Originally Posted by TurboMatt


Slowly worked the groves out using 500 grit sand paper. While taking extra care to maintain the round shape that the knuckle is supposed to have.


??? They look thicker than the old ones...


I agree...isn't that odd? The leather seems to have 'puffed' up some. I'm not sure if that's from the agitation effect from the sand paper? I plan to lightly brush them with a plastic bristle brush then apple some PTFE powder before the action goes back into the piano. Even as they are now, they are very smooth to the touch. Much better than how they were before the sand paper!
Adding these pictures just to continue through the process. Please provide feedback on anything you can identify that is in need of some attention.

I have ordered some polishing materials to address the balance rail and front rail key pins. I should be able to get to that in the next few days. Pictures will be added once that step is started.

Picture to illustrate the current whippen setup
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Picture to illustrate the current letoff button and jack
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Keyframe after vacuuming
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Keyframe again
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Balance rail after vacuuming
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Front rail after vacuuming
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Random cool pic of the front rail
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Keys stored on an adjacent table.
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Back rail cloth which appears to be in great shape
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Back rail cloth #2 which appears to be in great shape. Thoughts?
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Back rail close up
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Looking good! Maybe you could show us a side view of one knuckle resting on the jack like normal so we can see the alignment there.
Originally Posted by jsilva
Looking good! Maybe you could show us a side view of one knuckle resting on the jack like normal so we can see the alignment there.


Sure thing. Does it matter which knuckle/jack?

As a note, I will probably have a few more posts before I can get to that. I would like to have the key frame completely cleaned up and all of the pins polished before I put the keys in.

As well, I'm going to check the key frame in the key bed of the piano this evening and make sure it sits perfectly flat.
If you are going to bed the key frame be certain to have the action completely assembled.
Also, take the time to clean and polish the glides and be certain the wood they contact on the key bed is clean and smooth. Goes without saying the keybed needs to be very clean.
Just a thought: looking at your front and balance rail pins I’m a bit uncertain what caused the deposit/corrosion or whatever it is. It makes me suspicious that other action components may be contaminated thinking in this case about the glide bolt threads.
If your bedding the key frame they should turn smooth.
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
If you are going to bed the key frame be certain to have the action completely assembled.
Also, take the time to clean and polish the glides and be certain the wood they contact on the key bed is clean and smooth. Goes without saying the keybed needs to be very clean.
Just a thought: looking at your front and balance rail pins I’m a bit uncertain what caused the deposit/corrosion or whatever it is. It makes me suspicious that other action components may be contaminated thinking in this case about the glide bolt threads.
If your bedding the key frame they should turn smooth.


I just installed the key frame in the piano and checked it out. It was pretty far out from level. However, this is just the key frame. I can skip this step for now if that's the best procedure. A few videos I ran across stated that it's the first step?

The glide bolts turn very smooth actually. There is some mild corrosion on their surface but the threads look fine and turn smooth.

I took a couple of quick videos. I assume that I should revisit the bedding process after the action is complete and back together?

Initial check of the key bed


After initial adjustment


Key bed / key frame are flat. I should probably revisit this after the action is completed?


Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Sure thing. Does it matter which knuckle/jack?


I was just thinking that working on the knuckles will likely affect the jack alignment with the knuckle. A photo of any jack will do, as long as you check every one once everything is back together.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
However, this is just the key frame. I can skip this step for now if that's the best procedure.

The foundations of a house determines if it will be solid or not. For a complete regulation, this first step is actually vital as you will build everything else on it. I would actually wait to start your complete regulation only once you will have done other important work, such as cleaning up those rusty pins, etc.

Unless you have a particular action with special limits, after finding the optimal keybed position for sound (especially the treble end side - do this as many times as needed to be sure), install cheek blocks correctly to achieve this. Then you can start with empty frame and no bedding screws touching (beware of blind glide bolts on certain Yamaha models), then adjust screws starting with the back rail, etc. Once no knock, fine adjust with the usual slipping paper sheet trick. Then install most keys on frame except a few so you can still work to adjust bolts and with enough room for paper test, and verify/adjust everything. The key frame on keybed initial step should be done with optimal RH in the room as much as possible. Autumn time like right now should be OK. If done in dry or humid condition in the piano room, use a humidifier or dehumidifier to compensate, etc. Hopefully the procedure you have mentions most of this and more.
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
However, this is just the key frame. I can skip this step for now if that's the best procedure.

Then you can start with empty frame and no bedding screws touching (beware of blind glide bolts on certain Yamaha models), then adjust screws starting with the back rail, etc. Once no knock, fine adjust with the usual slipping paper sheet trick. Then install most keys on frame except a few so you can still work to adjust bolts and with enough room for paper test, and verify/adjust everything. The key frame on keybed initial step should be done with optimal RH in the room as much as possible. Autumn time like right now should be OK. If done in dry or humid condition in the piano room, use a humidifier or dehumidifier to compensate, etc. Hopefully the procedure you have mentions most of this and more.


It is important to include one more step in this procedure. After the keyframe is bedded to the key-bed, (and there are different approaches needed for differing stiffness found in various makers' frames), place the stack on the keyframe, without the keys, and install it in position. Check each mating of the cleats to the feet of the stack and shim so that all feet of the stack are equally seated on the key-frame. This is important because if you have a foot that is not touching, when you screw it down, a stress will have been created between the two assemblies and they key-frame can become weather sensitive, ie, it can knock in either dry or damp conditions, depending on its original installation .

regards,
Originally Posted by jsilva
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Sure thing. Does it matter which knuckle/jack?


I was just thinking that working on the knuckles will likely affect the jack alignment with the knuckle. A photo of any jack will do, as long as you check every one once everything is back together.


You are absolutely correct. I was pondering that exact thought as I was working them. The hammer and shank will sit closer to the jack now so that will need to be addressed.

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
However, this is just the key frame. I can skip this step for now if that's the best procedure.

The foundations of a house determines if it will be solid or not. For a complete regulation, this first step is actually vital as you will build everything else on it. I would actually wait to start your complete regulation only once you will have done other important work, such as cleaning up those rusty pins, etc.

Unless you have a particular action with special limits, after finding the optimal keybed position for sound (especially the treble end side - do this as many times as needed to be sure), install cheek blocks correctly to achieve this. Then you can start with empty frame and no bedding screws touching (beware of blind glide bolts on certain Yamaha models), then adjust screws starting with the back rail, etc. Once no knock, fine adjust with the usual slipping paper sheet trick. Then install most keys on frame except a few so you can still work to adjust bolts and with enough room for paper test, and verify/adjust everything. The key frame on keybed initial step should be done with optimal RH in the room as much as possible. Autumn time like right now should be OK. If done in dry or humid condition in the piano room, use a humidifier or dehumidifier to compensate, etc. Hopefully the procedure you have mentions most of this and more.


What do you mean by blind glide bolts? I did not measure nor monitor RH when I started this yesterday. Will it be sufficient to open windows for some time while monitoring RH outside? I have no way to monitor RH with a device inside my home. Should that be important, I will purchased a device to measure.

Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
However, this is just the key frame. I can skip this step for now if that's the best procedure.

Then you can start with empty frame and no bedding screws touching (beware of blind glide bolts on certain Yamaha models), then adjust screws starting with the back rail, etc. Once no knock, fine adjust with the usual slipping paper sheet trick. Then install most keys on frame except a few so you can still work to adjust bolts and with enough room for paper test, and verify/adjust everything. The key frame on keybed initial step should be done with optimal RH in the room as much as possible. Autumn time like right now should be OK. If done in dry or humid condition in the piano room, use a humidifier or dehumidifier to compensate, etc. Hopefully the procedure you have mentions most of this and more.


It is important to include one more step in this procedure. After the keyframe is bedded to the key-bed, (and there are different approaches needed for differing stiffness found in various makers' frames), place the stack on the keyframe, without the keys, and install it in position. Check each mating of the cleats to the feet of the stack and shim so that all feet of the stack are equally seated on the key-frame. This is important because if you have a foot that is not touching, when you screw it down, a stress will have been created between the two assemblies and they key-frame can become weather sensitive, ie, it can knock in either dry or damp conditions, depending on its original installation .

regards,


This makes perfect sense. Funny enough, I was thinking that the stack would absolutely tweak the key frame if everything wasn't perfect. As I'm working through this, I go back in my mind to all of the experience I have building engines (I'm an auto enthusiast). Thinking how precise valve adjustments have to be and comparing that to some of the regulation steps. Thinking about torqueing cylinder heads, main caps etc and comparing that to the key bed / frame relationship. Different worlds but similar approaches to proper technique and detailed steps.
SOP for keyframe bedding is to first look at the design. If the BR studs are accessible above the keys then then it was designed to be bedded with the keys and action in place (in most cases). Also, the FR will normally have a gap at each end near the keyblocks so as to be pulled down flat by the keyblocks. This gap can be exacerbated by improper BR bedding.

BR first, all studs turned up so there is knocking (action and keys on place keyblocks tight), turn number 2 stud (from the left) to just eliminate knocking, then number 3, 4, going back and checking earlier ones to make sure and readjust, then do the end studs by turning stud and tapping on the next stud in until knocking begins, then back it off till knocking ceases. Rinse and repeat. Then rinse and repeat again with both feet on the pedals with fairly hard pressure (testing to see if keybed flexes). Then start looking atbthe front rail. Should be ok though on that piano.

Others may add more details, but that is the basic idea.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
SOP for keyframe bedding is to first look at the design. If the BR studs are accessible above the keys then then it was designed to be bedded with the keys and action in place (in most cases). Also, the FR will normally have a gap at each end near the keyblocks so as to be pulled down flat by the keyblocks. This gap can be exacerbated by improper BR bedding.

BR first, all studs turned up so there is knocking (action and keys on place keyblocks tight), turn number 2 stud (from the left) to just eliminate knocking, then number 3, 4, going back and checking earlier ones to make sure and readjust, then do the end studs by turning stud and tapping on the next stud in until knocking begins, then back it off till knocking ceases. Rinse and repeat. Then rinse and repeat again with both feet on the pedals with fairly hard pressure (testing to see if keybed flexes). Then start looking atbthe front rail. Should be ok though on that piano.

Others may add more details, but that is the basic idea.

Pwg


Would it be helpful if I took a picture of the key frame from the bottom? As I want to make sure I do this correctly, I am open to the best advice to follow.

Thankfully, the key frame adjustment screws can be accessed with the action fully assembled. So, I can take care of the key bedding afterwards if that's the best way.
After looking over the key frame again, I see that 2 (out of 7) of the glide bolts are blind. Because of this, those 2 can not be adjusted once the keys are on the frame. I would assume I need to back all of them off then go through the bedding procedure while adjusting all 7? As well, because the 2 cannot be access while the action is assembled, I would also assume that the bedding is in fact the first step for my Yamaha?
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
After looking over the key frame again, I see that 2 (out of 7) of the glide bolts are blind.

Bingo. Yamaha often use those and I thought it could be your case. I personally like them out of the way (near flat with the key frame like the others) unless it creates a problem later in the regulation (aftertouch, etc.). If you want to adjust them, simply note their height first. You can always start over and it's an excellent way to learn and understand the whole regulation process. Also, indeed you must add the stack weight when you bed the action. I wanted to add it in my earlier post ("most keys" might not have been precise enough) but it seems that on PW one now has just a few minutes to edit posts - I found out it was too late just after 5 minutes or so.

For your question about RH in the piano room, no need for extremely precise values, a basic hygrometer at any hardware store will do. You mainly want to make sure that the RH inside the piano when you work on the action will be roughly the same as when you play it later in normal conditions. Action bedding should always be the initial step in a complete regulation, regardless of brand.
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
After looking over the key frame again, I see that 2 (out of 7) of the glide bolts are blind.

Bingo. Yamaha often use those and I thought it could be your case. I personally like them out of the way (near flat with the key frame like the others) unless it creates a problem later in the regulation (aftertouch, etc.). If you want to adjust them, simply note their height first. You can always start over and it's an excellent way to learn and understand the whole regulation process. Also, indeed you must add the stack weight when you bed the action. I wanted to add it in my earlier post ("most keys" might not have been precise enough) but it seems that on PW one now has just a few minutes to edit posts - I found out it was too late just after 5 minutes or so.

For your question about RH in the piano room, no need for extremely precise values, a basic hygrometer at any hardware store will do. You mainly want to make sure that the RH inside the piano when you work on the action will be roughly the same as when you play it later in normal conditions. Action bedding should always be the initial step in a complete regulation, regardless of brand.


I would like to make sure I take care of the next few things correctly. At the moment, I will be working on polishing the key pins. And I have to admit, I made a mistake and tipped the box over that had the bass section of felts and shims for under the keys. So, that section will now need to have the keys leveled...oops.

If I understand things correctly, I should finish polishing the key pins. Then temporarily place all the keys on the frame except for the few that block the blind guide bolts. Then install the stack and place the action back in the key bed to properly bed the key frame?

Sound correct?
Just a bit of an update with some pictures. I finished polishing the BR key pins as well as the glide bolts. I started on the FR key pins and hope to have those done by tomorrow evening.

If someone can, please take a look at my questions in the previous post.

Balance Rail before
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Balance Rail after polishing
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Glide bolts before
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Glide bolts after polishing
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Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
After looking over the key frame again, I see that 2 (out of 7) of the glide bolts are blind.

Bingo. Yamaha often use those and I thought it could be your case. I personally like them out of the way (near flat with the key frame like the others) unless it creates a problem later in the regulation (aftertouch, etc.). If you want to adjust them, simply note their height first. You can always start over and it's an excellent way to learn and understand the whole regulation process. Also, indeed you must add the stack weight when you bed the action. I wanted to add it in my earlier post ("most keys" might not have been precise enough) but it seems that on PW one now has just a few minutes to edit posts - I found out it was too late just after 5 minutes or so.

For your question about RH in the piano room, no need for extremely precise values, a basic hygrometer at any hardware store will do. You mainly want to make sure that the RH inside the piano when you work on the action will be roughly the same as when you play it later in normal conditions. Action bedding should always be the initial step in a complete regulation, regardless of brand.


I would like to make sure I take care of the next few things correctly. At the moment, I will be working on polishing the key pins. And I have to admit, I made a mistake and tipped the box over that had the bass section of felts and shims for under the keys. So, that section will now need to have the keys leveled...oops.

If I understand things correctly, I should finish polishing the key pins. Then temporarily place all the keys on the frame except for the few that block the blind guide bolts. Then install the stack and place the action back in the key bed to properly bed the key frame?

Sound correct?


Yes.

Nice work polishing. Too bad you messed up the punchings though. Extra work, but that won't happen again...😁

So now for initial adjustment with keys out (keyblocks screwed in and all studs backed off not touching keybed), adjust all of them such that you can just barely drag a strip of newspaper out from under them without it ripping. That will get you into the ballpark pretty well.

BTW, you can still adjust the "blind" ones with everything assembled with a screwdriver that fits in the action cavity (unless of course they are TOTALLY blind which implies that they are not intended to be adjusted after the initial newspaper adjustment).

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey

Yes.

Nice work polishing. Too bad you messed up the punchings though. Extra work, but that won't happen again...😁

So now for initial adjustment with keys out (keyblocks screwed in and all studs backed off not touching keybed), adjust all of them such that you can just barely drag a strip of newspaper out from under them without it ripping. That will get you into the ballpark pretty well.

BTW, you can still adjust the "blind" ones with everything assembled with a screwdriver that fits in the action cavity (unless of course they are TOTALLY blind which implies that they are not intended to be adjusted after the initial newspaper adjustment).

Pwg



Just for clarification, the paper test would be to slide it under each glide bolt where they touch the key bed? Or, use the paper at all points where the key frame rests on the key bed?

Thanks for the help!
Glide bolts (studs). Put the paper under and turn the bolt down to the point where it pinches the paper slightly...start pulling on the paper and adjust till you can just barely pull it without tearing it. Go to the next and repeat. Then go back and check each one again...adjust as needed.

When you get the weight on they will all be in contact (probably) and then you go around and check them all by tapping (listening for knocking sound) and adjust as needed. This is where you also put your feet on the pedals and press to flex the keybed (shift position and also sustain pedal...both) and adjust accordingly. IOW you want positive contact under all playing conditions but you don't want to crank the thing up into the air (we see this way too often). Its not rocket science, but it is a sensitive and very important setting.

I assume the blind ones are at the ends. Is this correct? I forget how Yamaha sets these up and it's very rare that they need adjustment.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Glide bolts (studs). Put the paper under and turn the bolt down to the point where it pinches the paper slightly...start pulling on the paper and adjust till you can just barely pull it without tearing it. Go to the next and repeat. Then go back and check each one again...adjust as needed.

When you get the weight on they will all be in contact (probably) and then you go around and check them all by tapping (listening for knocking sound) and adjust as needed. This is where you also put your feet on the pedals and press to flex the keybed (shift position and also sustain pedal...both) and adjust accordingly. IOW you want positive contact under all playing conditions but you don't want to crank the thing up into the air (we see this way too often). Its not rocket science, but it is a sensitive and very important setting.

I assume the blind ones are at the ends. Is this correct? I forget how Yamaha sets these up and it's very rare that they need adjustment.

Pwg


Thanks so much for the detailed response! I will get to this by the end of the week as long as I can finish polishing all of the pins.

The blind glide bolts are at positions #2 and #4 (counting left to right) as I recall. I will check when I arrive home later. I did e-mail Yamaha support to ask if they have a documented procedure for the keybed process. I will post that information when they respond.

Thank you,
Matt
Don't forget to send these pictures to the previous piano technician...
Looking for some feedback on key pin / caul sizing. I'm working on the key pin bushings using the VS Profelt and ran into some questions. The video explains it all.

Did I order the correct cauls?

Matt,

BR cauls should be same or .001" - .002" over the size of the pin, so you are good there. Your FR cauls should be .005" -.010" oversize (depending on various circumstances). They will come out TOO tight if you are only .001" oversize. They will work, but when the humidity changes they may bind.

Your bushings look dirty to me on the vid. Blow each one out with compressed air so they're clean before doing this. Also, you do not need more than a drip or two of PROFELT on each bushing to get the desired result. Put the drops right in the depression. Don't soak it.

I had a feeling this was going to happen when you said you had ordered the cauls, but by then it was too late.

If you have some shim stock around you can cut some very thin overlays to increase the size ofvthe caul tongues.

Pwg
Pwg,

Thanks so much for the feedback. My FR pins measure .124 (measuring left to right as they are oval). Based off of your explanation, I should order some .129-.134 cauls for the FR? I haven't set up any of the FR cauls so I don't mind ordering the correct ones. I just looked at the site where I ordered the other ones. I see .129 and .133 available. Any opinion on which ones I should go with?

The bushings had some of the powder PTFE in them from when the previous tech lubed them. I used a fine "straw brush" to agitate the area a bit and clean out the PTFE. I was going to use my compressor but I don't have a water separator on the output. I'll grab one tomorrow then do as you mentioned to blow them out.

Thank you,
Matt
Yamaha tends to like things fairly tight. I guess .129" should do the trick.

Do you have key easing pliers?

Also, were any front pins turned?

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yamaha tends to like things fairly tight. I guess .129" should do the trick.

Do you have key easing pliers?

Also, were any front pins turned?

Pwg


In that case, I'll order the .129 cauls.

I don't not have a set, however, I do recall seeing them online. Should I see how things fit then order them if they are needed?

No, and I don't see how you would turn then. I have read that you can turn the FR pins but I don't see how you would? The pins are oval and are driven into oval holes in the key frame.
Good that they are all straight ahead. I assumed it but just wanted to be sure. We often find FR pins turned to take up slop but its a bad practice.

Will be interested in how things come out here.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Good that they are all straight ahead. I assumed it but just wanted to be sure. We often find FR pins turned to take up slop but its a bad practice.

Will be interested in how things come out here.

Pwg


The .129 cauls are on order. They will probably arrive Wednesday evening so I'll update this thread then.
I'm back with a few questions.

I went ahead and tried some of the VS Profelt then installed some of the key bushing cauls in the balance rail key bushings.

Balance rail key pins measure 0.136 inch and the cauls I ordered measure 0.137 inch. My opinion is that the key bushings should be a bit more snug. Sharing this video to provide a more clear explanation.

Matt,

Try the PROFELT with no caul at all and see what happens. Just do one or two. It will expand and then contract, and may give you exactly what you want. Remember Just a drop or two at the point of contact.

Try one at the FR just for fun too.

Another little trick is to put the caul in for an hour or two, then remove it. It call depends on what the desired result is and the amount of wear and cloth in existence.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

Try the PROFELT with no caul at all and see what happens. Just do one or two. It will expand and then contract, and may give you exactly what you want. Remember Just a drop or two at the point of contact.

Try one at the FR just for fun too.

Another little trick is to put the caul in for an hour or two, then remove it. It call depends on what the desired result is and the amount of wear and cloth in existence.

Pwg


Ok, that's great to know. I will give that a shot on one where the key bushing is worn in one spot. I'l' give this a shot and let you know how it works.
TurboMatt, I would rebush the BR of those keys. I want the newly installed bushings to be too tight. Then I iron the bushings to densified the felt and create just enough free play.

Most technicians and piano factories want to have the key bushings sized by the cauls to create free play. I find this leads to rapid wear.

To use an analogous process as an example consider that action centers must be bushed with cloth that is too soft for proper solid pinning. The newly installed bushings are then sized or densified. Then the tolerances and spring rate of the felt become balanced properly for low friction but high wear resistance. The analogy from a IC engine would be if the rods have free play, (knock), then when one powers the motor under load, the rods are prone to breaking.

I find the same is true for keybushings. one must "overbush" the key slightly and then iron the felt with a heated tool. This will make an extremely wear resistant key bushing.
Ed,

I would agree with you entirely. I am thinking though that this may be beyond TurboMatt's level of ability (at present) to accomplish and make an improvement. My take on it is that he wants to "recondition" his existing stuff to the degree possible right now, perhaps saving replacement for the semi-distant future. I could easily be wrong here though, and stand ready to be corrected.

However, I am going to add your protocol to my MO as I think it is better (I have anecdotal evidence of my own to corroborate what you said). Thanks for bringing it out.

Pwg
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
TurboMatt, I would rebush the BR of those keys. I want the newly installed bushings to be too tight. Then I iron the bushings to densified the felt and create just enough free play.

Most technicians and piano factories want to have the key bushings sized by the cauls to create free play. I find this leads to rapid wear.

To use an analogous process as an example consider that action centers must be bushed with cloth that is too soft for proper solid pinning. The newly installed bushings are then sized or densified. Then the tolerances and spring rate of the felt become balanced properly for low friction but high wear resistance. The analogy from a IC engine would be if the rods have free play, (knock), then when one powers the motor under load, the rods are prone to breaking.

I find the same is true for keybushings. one must "overbush" the key slightly and then iron the felt with a heated tool. This will make an extremely wear resistant key bushing.



I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the rebush process. I'll look into that a bit over the next few days and see if it's something that I would be comfortable with. I did find a company that would rebush if I sent them the entire key set. Then my worry there is damage of the keys while in transit. Either way, I know using the .137 caul definitely made the bushing too loose.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Ed,

I would agree with you entirely. I am thinking though that this may be beyond TurboMatt's level of ability (at present) to accomplish and make an improvement. My take on it is that he wants to "recondition" his existing stuff to the degree possible right now, perhaps saving replacement for the semi-distant future. I could easily be wrong here though, and stand ready to be corrected.

However, I am going to add your protocol to my MO as I think it is better (I have anecdotal evidence of my own to corroborate what you said). Thanks for bringing it out.

Pwg


You are most likely correct in this being beyond my current capabilities. That's not to say that I'm against learning. I also agree that a rebush is most likely the best step to take. I'll take a look at the bushings this evening when I get home. I applied Profelt to one without any caul and another where I placed the caul for 1 hour then removed. I'll update this thread once I'm able to inspect them.

Thanks,
Matt
Matt, have you looked at this video from Howard Piano industries about rebushing? This one is part 2 about installing the new felts. Part one is about removing the old felts, which seems to me basically a matter of steaming them out. Given what you've done so far, replacing the rail bushings doesn't seem that difficult.

Matt - Despite how easy rebushing looks in the video, it's not something I would want to do for the first time on my own piano. It's the details that can get you.

- It does take some "technique" to be able to remove the old bushings without damaging the keys. You need to use the right tool(s), and those tools need to be sharp.
- Some keys, most probably in the higher usage areas of the keyboard, will have worn more than those elsewhere. Why care? You may need to use several different sizes of bushing cloth, not just different size cawls when rebushing. I just had my keyboard rebushed, and my technician told me he'd had to use THREE different size bushing cloths (and various cawls) to achieve a uniformly satisfactory result. I add that he is very experienced at action restorations, does them weekly. It takes time and a lot of practice to develop real skill.
============================================================
Sending the keyboard away to rebush: Please get some references and DO contact them before you do it. I wish I'd done that when I sent away my old keyboard and had a new one made... It is entirely possible that the people to whom you are thinking about shipping your keys to will do a great job for you, but please do mitigate the risk of an unsatisfactory job by checking references.
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Matt, have you looked at this video from Howard Piano industries about rebushing? This one is part 2 about installing the new felts. Part one is about removing the old felts, which seems to me basically a matter of steaming them out. Given what you've done so far, replacing the rail bushings doesn't seem that difficult.



I did see that video. Thank you for sharing it. Howard Piano is where I've been purchasing all of the items I've needed thus far.

Originally Posted by Seeker
Matt - Despite how easy rebushing looks in the video, it's not something I would want to do for the first time on my own piano. It's the details that can get you.

- It does take some "technique" to be able to remove the old bushings without damaging the keys. You need to use the right tool(s), and those tools need to be sharp.
- Some keys, most probably in the higher usage areas of the keyboard, will have worn more than those elsewhere. Why care? You may need to use several different sizes of bushing cloth, not just different size cawls when rebushing. I just had my keyboard rebushed, and my technician told me he'd had to use THREE different size bushing cloths (and various cawls) to achieve a uniformly satisfactory result. I add that he is very experienced at action restorations, does them weekly. It takes time and a lot of practice to develop real skill.
============================================================
Sending the keyboard away to rebush: Please get some references and DO contact them before you do it. I wish I'd done that when I sent away my old keyboard and had a new one made... It is entirely possible that the people to whom you are thinking about shipping your keys to will do a great job for you, but please do mitigate the risk of an unsatisfactory job by checking references.



You are correct in that it would require some technique to make this perfect. After I looked over the key bushings again last night, I'm not too comfortable with the idea of replacing them myself. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The two keys that I used ProFelt with no caul and a caul for only 1 hr came out great! The one where there was no caul used is a bit too tight. The key moves freely however it doesn't fall down to the FR felts on it's own.

Now, the key bushing that had the caul inserted for 1 hour came out perfect. There is no visible play in the balance rail bushing and it moves nice and smooth.

After I figured that out, I set up a few more keys to replicate the process for the one key that came out perfect so hopefully this next batch will be just as good.

I will post videos after the process is done.
I was able to get a few hours to work on the piano this weekend and wow, what did I find!? After closer inspection of the key bushings, I see the previous tech REALLY screwed up! Prior to this work, I apparently have not looked close enough at things. He broke 3 keys and damaged another. To say I'm extremely mad would be an understatement! I have no idea how someone could damage something like this and NOT say anything at all to the customer. Either way, I now have a few other issues to address.

For the repair, I picked up some high quality CA from my local RC hobby shop. I've used it on some RC builds and high-end helicopters I've built so I suspect it will work well. I plan to carefully open the area to apply the CA then compress with small wood working clamps. Still can't believe I need to do this....

As far a progress, I have successfully worked all of the key bushings, both BR and FR. The ProFelt seems to be fairly amazing stuff. I did have to re-work a few of the BR bushings after initially using a caul that was too large (.137) for the BR pins (.136). I ended up using a mix of .124 and.129 cauls which I set in place for a few hours then removed. This seemed to be the recipe for a perfect fitment. There is no play at the BR key pin and the keys move smooth without resistance. I'll get a video after I have the prior key damage issue resolved. Glad things are moving along!

A few damage pics from his 're-working' the key bushings...
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


A few random pics of the key bushings setting up after applying VS ProFelt and cauls (used a few different sizes based on wear).

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Honestly I think those little cracks are more likely to predate your previous tech than to have been caused by him. I find stuff like that all the time in pianos that have seen nothing but lots of playing, and on a grand piano you usually don't notice them unless you take the stack off and look. More likely your tech didn't repair the problem because he didn't notice it IMO. And yes, that would be something he should have noticed in a thorough reconditioning, but I think it's been established that the reconditioning was not thorough.
Originally Posted by AWilley
Honestly I think those little cracks are more likely to predate your previous tech than to have been caused by him. I find stuff like that all the time in pianos that have seen nothing but lots of playing, and on a grand piano you usually don't notice them unless you take the stack off and look. More likely your tech didn't repair the problem because he didn't notice it IMO. And yes, that would be something he should have noticed in a thorough reconditioning, but I think it's been established that the reconditioning was not thorough.


Unfortunately, those are from the previous tech. At the initial inspection, he stated that the key bushings were worn and advised that I replace them. The price he quoted to replace the bushings was far more than I would have expected (I think around $750?). So, he stated he could 're-work' the bushings for an additional fee on top of the regulation work. Those marks were not there prior to that. Either way, it's something I'll take care of.

Here is a pic before the action was touched.
[Linked Image]
The lines on both sides of the bushings were caused by using a "bushing tightener". You place the tool over the bushing and tap it with a hammer and it crushes the wood together making the bushing tighter. This tool ruins keys and never should be used. (It never should have been invented). I can't say weather your tech used it or someone earlier, but that is what caused the button to crack. You can see in the picture that it was used more than once because of the multiple lines in the top of the button.

I would use regular wood glue to repair the splits. CA will work, but if you get any near the bushing, it will soak it right up and ruin it.
Oh dear, my bad. I saw the little gouges but assumed incorrectly they had been caused by an exacto knife trimming the felt in a prior rebushing job. Yikes!
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
The lines on both sides of the bushings were caused by using a "bushing tightener". You place the tool over the bushing and tap it with a hammer and it crushes the wood together making the bushing tighter. This tool ruins keys and never should be used. (It never should have been invented). I can't say weather your tech used it or someone earlier, but that is what caused the button to crack. You can see in the picture that it was used more than once because of the multiple lines in the top of the button.

I would use regular wood glue to repair the splits. CA will work, but if you get any near the bushing, it will soak it right up and ruin it.


I can without a doubt say that it was recently done. There was zero indentations in the wood around the key bushings prior to the recent work.

What wood glue would you guys recommend? Any particular wood glue? I assumed medium CA would be far stronger than wood glue.

Thanks!
Greetings,
The proper techique is a squared-edge razor-thin blade cut straight down into the button, from the top, and then a VERY thin shim of veneer is inserted with a drop of hide glue. Done correctly, original felt or damaged mortises can be closed up to useable tolerances, and, as done by Bill Garlic, was almost invisible to see. We also did this when the original buttons were to be kept but some had been damaged. It can re-inforce the sides of a thin mortise.
However, If the pictures are as I think, your piano was in the hands of a quack. Nobody with any care or expertise would knife the buttons like this for tightening, and leaving damages in the process. Perhaps you are fortunate you didn't let the tech re-bush your keys.

In a slight contrast with Ed McMorrow's protocol, whereas he is into caloric control, I prefer to chemically compress. Wool can be compressed in multiple ways; heat, which contracts the fibers, making the bushing denser and harder, or chemical, which is basically using a fabric softener that lets wool fibers uncoil from one another and then coil back when drying, leaving the felt denser and harder. . I think both approaches end up at the same place, but the heat requires more expertise and finesse. Differing applications of it will leave differing amounts of clearance, so consistency has to originate in the hands of the tech. Using a wetting agent, (not unlike treatment of action center bushing), and cauls has become my go-to approach.

I rebush with cloth sufficiently tight so that there is definite drag on the key. Steinways usually take .050" or thereabouts. Usually, I can tell best thickness by using a caul the same size as the pin and feeling how much compression the felt offers as I push it in. I want some resistance. After a day to completely dry, I pull the cauls out, six at a time, and put no more than three drops of VSPro-felt on each bushing and re-install cold cauls the same size as the pins. After drying overnight, they felt has shrunk to the caul sized and they are loose enough to fall out on their own. Usually these keys will go on the frame, as is. Some may require a touch of the key-easing pliers, but that is back to the finesse and time thing. This chemical relaxation and then re-forming against the caul leaves all the bushing pretty much the exact same. That there is a touch of lubricant, (probably silicone), seems to increase longevity.

How loose? Depends on the use. In university practice rooms, over 38 years, I watched a number of my bushing jobs wear out and be re-replaced. I made adjustments in my glue thickness, spring tension(this was pre-caul days), etc. I was there long enough to re-re-rebush our early practice room instruments. I start these bushings off with as little tolerance as possible, as they will all be loosened up in the first 6 weeks of a term. In the living room, on the restored family piano that will be used for holidays and the occasional party, I leave the keys looser, as that is probably going to be as loose as they ever get.

A word about the key-easing pliers; Since time is money, I and virtually everybody I know uses them, but it is important to understand what is going on. Wool can also be compressed by pressure, but it takes a lot. Usually, a lot more than the delicate wood of a key mortise can withstand, so if I use them to open up a mortise, the fibers I am permanently crushing are wood, not wool. This is one way to reduce the drag on the key, but if the bushing is to be done more than once, it is not best practice. If moisture and heat were used to remove the old cloth, the wood of the mortise has probably expanded, and that is what is going to collapse first under the pressure of the pliers. That's why I prefer the alternative ways, whichever one chooses.
regards,
Greetings,
Hmmm, Those cuts don't look like the indentations from a bushing tightener to me. That "tool" usually makes blunter indentations. These slices look like the profile of a knife, as the cuts are all tapered from what would be a spine to the thin edge. Also, there is a picture with two cuts on one side and one cut on the other, which would be hard to do with a crusher..
Regard,s

Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
The lines on both sides of the bushings were caused by using a "bushing tightener". You place the tool over the bushing and tap it with a hammer and it crushes the wood together making the bushing tighter. This tool ruins keys and never should be used. (It never should have been invented). I can't say weather your tech used it or someone earlier, but that is what caused the button to crack. You can see in the picture that it was used more than once because of the multiple lines in the top of the button.
On the previous page there's a better picture of the keys. All the indentations have the same spacings. I have a bushing tightener in my shop that will leave the same marks so I'm pretty sure that's where they came from.

I rebush keys using the same protocol as Ed uses (because I "stole" it from him years ago after he posted about it). It works very well. I rarely if ever need to ease bushings afterwards.
Thanks for all the feedback in the past few posts!

The tool that the tech showed that he would use to re-work the bushings looked like a chisel. I'm not a woods crafty person but that's what it looked like. It didn't fit on both sides of the key. Had I know this could have happened, I would absolutely opted out of that work. I had no idea that the keys would get damaged.

As a note, I picked up TiteBond II wood glue to use for the repair. If this is the wrong product, please let me know.

Thanks
Matt,

TB 2 will work fine. Too bad this happened. HARDWOOD BR (which these are) buttons should never be treated this way. IMO the work I am seeing (overall) is that of an amateur, and not a very good one at that. The work you are doing is far superior.

I would tell this fellow to go on PW and read this thread, though assuring him that his name has not been published, and see if he wants to do anything about it in your behalf (obviously not more work on the piano but rather in the area of a refund) to protect his reputation.

I don't know what tool he used but he sure made a mess of it. 😞 Edit: though technically the keys probably should have gotten rebushed. HOWEVER I suspect that if he had done, it would not be a very good job.

Pwg

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

TB 2 will work fine. Too bad this happened. HARDWOOD BR (which these are) buttons should never be treated this way. IMO the work I am seeing (overall) is that of an amateur, and not a very good one at that. The work you are doing is far superior.

I would tell this fellow to go on PW and read this thread, though assuring him that his name has not been published, and see if he wants to do anything about it in your behalf (obviously not more work on the piano but rather in the area of a refund) to protect his reputation.

I don't know what tool he used but he sure made a mess of it. 😞 Edit: though technically the keys probably should have gotten rebushed. HOWEVER I suspect that if he had done, it would not be a very good job.

Pwg



I appreciate the kind words. I have been very pleased with the work I have done thus far. Everything is coming out much better than it was, so that is good. I will be extremely careful when I address the key repair glue work this evening.

The tech name was not mentioned and I don't plan on sharing it. I know at this point I was treated poorly and very much over charged for the work that was completed. The best thing to do is keep moving forward and make the best out of it that I can.

As far as the key bushings, I do know that they should have been replaced. When I was adding up cost when I initially started looking at the regulation work, I could see it getting out of hand. The tech quoted over $1000 for the regulation work. When I took that into consideration with new hammers/shanks and new key bushings I was over $3000. Seeing that I didn't pay much more than that for the piano, I couldn't justify that much without knowing if it would be money properly spent. At this point, I'm SO glad that I didn't spend that amount of money with him!
Originally Posted by P W Grey
The work you are doing is far superior.


Definitely!
I'm working on a things right now while following the Yamaha regulation manual they sent me.

I have a few of the initial steps taken care of and have run across a few questions. Per the Yamaha spec, it states that the key height is measured from the key bed to the bottom of the key top lip. Their factory spec is 64 mm and I measure 65.5 mm. I have ordered some balance rail punches to level all of the keys. However, I can't imagine by removing some of the existing ones that I will be able to drop front of the keys that much? Should I assume that I will need to replace or shim the back rail cloth to raise the back of the keys?

As well, the key dip has me a bit confused at the moment as well. I'm not sure if key is checking while playing the key just so the jack escapes the knuckle or if I'm supposed to push the key down into the front rail felt?

This video explains the key dip questions in better detail


Thanks!!
Matt
Key dip is all the way to the bottom. A firm mezzo-piano is probably sufficient...you don't need to mash it down, but it should be firmly seated on the felt. Yes, pulling out balance rail punchings can lower the key height. I'd also look at the keys with the front key slip in...you want the tops of the keys to be about 20 mm (I think) above the top of the key slip.
I just installed the key slip and measured. I recall Yamaha spec being 20 mm but I measure 21.4 mm. So far it looks like key height overall is too high. I'll go ahead and pull the action back out, remove the stack then remove the paper punchings to see what that does to correct things. If that doesn't work, would the next step be to somehow raise the keys at the back rail? Maybe try some ProFelt on it or needle it?
To lower the key height by 1.5 mm I'd estimate that you'd need to remove the equivalent of 3 blue punchings (0.030 inches) from the balance rail. Now that you mention it, the keys probably are high because the backrail felt compressed...I honestly don't know if needling/pro-felting it will be a permanent or even fix.
All of the paper punchings are white. Looking at them, I see far more than I've seen installed on other actions. I'm not sure if this was something that was done previously in the pianos life. I'll remove all of them and leave the single red felt at the balance rail and report back.
I don't recommend removing all of them! That's creating a lot more work for you if the keys are already fairly level. You want to be able to adjust it up or down. If you're just lowering the key hight accross the board, remove the same number of punchings from each key. If they are the thinnest type of white punching then the correct number to remove is about 10. Look up how thick the different colors of punchings are and do some math first. To lower the key height by 1.5 mm you want to pull out about half as much in punchings... 0.75 mm.
I may have to figure out how to properly raise the back of the keys. As there is not .75 mm worth of punchings at the balance rail.
I have some similar questions regarding a DIY regulation (as I said in the beginning of this thread) and wondering whether I should ask them here in this thread or create a new one? On one hand I don't want to spoil TurboMatt's thread, on other hand in the rules it's explicitly stated that this sub-forum is for technicians and not for DIY threads and I don't want to be a nuisance with just another DIY thread.
Matt,

Before you start yanking out punching you must be sure that your frame bedding is correct as this can significantly skew the key height parameter. Are there instructions from Yamaha for this?

Pwg
Is 1.5mm of extra key height going to make a difference in the action’s feel worth addressing on this particular piano? (Assuming everything else is regulated well enough.)
You can also just replace the back rail felt. It's not expensive. Honestly 1.5 mm of extra key height isn't something I'd bother fixing. The biggest impact is visual IMO...the profile each key makes above the key slip...how tall the little rectangles are. The bigger deal is whether they are level with each other and the dip is correct and consistent. I wonder if anybody has ever tried shimming up the backrail felt.
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

Before you start yanking out punching you must be sure that your frame bedding is correct as this can significantly skew the key height parameter. Are there instructions from Yamaha for this?

Pwg


The bedding is (as far as I can tell) perfect. The procedure is in the Yamaha manual and I followed it exactly as stated. I would be happy to take a video if you would like to see anything in particular.

Originally Posted by jsilva
Is 1.5mm of extra key height going to make a difference in the action’s feel worth addressing on this particular piano? (Assuming everything else is regulated well enough.)


That's a question that I cannot answer. Per Yamaha spec and what the tech e-mailed me, key height is supposed to be 64 mm with key dip at 10 mm.

Originally Posted by AWilley
You can also just replace the back rail felt. It's not expensive. Honestly 1.5 mm of extra key height isn't something I'd bother fixing. The biggest impact is visual IMO...the profile each key makes above the key slip...how tall the little rectangles are. The bigger deal is whether they are level with each other and the dip is correct and consistent. I wonder if anybody has ever tried shimming up the backrail felt.


The reason I am worried about it is from what I read in regards to different key dip and how pianist agree that too much key makes for a lack of control? Since I'm returning to learning again, I want to make sure I set this piano up correctly. Just for reference, I measured the key dip on my 1920's Chickering I also own. The key dip on that measures 10.20 mm.

I will try to install a temporary shim at the back rail cloth and see what that does.
My concern is the fact that Yams are very very consistent, and I know that there is always a REASON when these things don't work out. 1.5mm is significant. If it was SS I would not be concerned in the least. The most likely culprit is the balance rail.

However, are you measuring from the keybed per se (the wood where the action rests) or the area in front of that (where the key slip rests)? This COULD make a difference.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
My concern is the fact that Yams are very very consistent, and I know that there is always a REASON when these things don't work out. 1.5mm is significant. If it was SS I would not be concerned in the least. The most likely culprit is the balance rail.

However, are you measuring from the keybed per se (the wood where the action rests) or the area in front of that (where the key slip rests)? This COULD make a difference.

Pwg


I agree completely. There is no way this piano is THAT far out from factor spec. I've gone through and measured multiple times now hoping I would find something I'm doing wrong.

The Yamaha spec sheet and manual say to measure from the key bed right where the key frame rests to make sure you do not measure from the key slip bed. So, I just went a specifically measured from the key slip bed to the bottom side of the key top and measured 67.5 mm. The key frame to the key slip bed measures out at 2 mm. So, the numbers are all adding up.

I just looked over the action again and it seem like the most logical thing would be to raise the rear of the keys at the back rail felt. Just thinking out loud...
I just removed all of the balance rail paper punchings from keys 12, 40 and 60 leaving only the red balance rail felt punching.

Key 12 dropped 2.05 mm
Key 40 dropped 2.45 mm
Key 60 dropped 2.00 mm

Feeling a little lost on what to do now. I thought that I would have had to add paper punchings, not take them away to get into spec?
Wait, if you're trying to lower key height, and removing balance rail punchings does just that, didn't you simply remove too many punchings?
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Wait, if you're trying to lower key height, and removing balance rail punchings does just that, didn't you simply remove too many punchings?


Yes, removing the balance rail paper punches will lower the key height. However, I may have done something else wrong.

So, I just removed the key stack a few times. First time to remove a few paper punches then again to remove them all (from keys 12, 40 and 60). I re-installed the stack and think I was doing it wrong before. I'm not sure how this would have effected key height but I must have done something wrong.

On the keys where I did not change anything, key height on a few keys now measures out to 64.15 - 64.30 mm. I over-looked the section in the manual that the angled action bracket screws must be the first removed and last installed.

Per Yamaha manual:
"Angled action bracket screws: These should be removed first when taking off the action stack and installed last when replacing the action stack. If the angled screws are tightened first, the stack may be misaligned, that is, shifted back from it's proper position. This change of position will alter the regulation dramatically"

Lesson learned, read the manual multiple times!
So, now you need to make sure that you are consistently getting the action back in the exact "buttoned down" position every time, and start again.

I've been doing this nearly 45 years now and there are two specific areas that I have seen even seasoned pros make drastic errors on:

1) keyframe bedding, and

2) hammershank traveling/spacing.

I am not saying you have made an error...but since it's so easy to make an error in this dept (with long lasting results)...just double/triple check your procedure on the frame bedding.

Okay...from your last post it appears that you might have had an "oops". If you have corrected that and your measurements are closer to spec you can go ahead and level. Would you mind iterating how you intend to accomplish the leveling procedure?

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
So, now you need to make sure that you are consistently getting the action back in the exact "buttoned down" position every time, and start again.

I've been doing this nearly 45 years now and there are two specific areas that I have seen even seasoned pros make drastic errors on:

1) keyframe bedding, and

2) hammershank traveling/spacing.

I am not saying you have made an error...but since it's so easy to make an error in this dept (with long lasting results)...just double/triple check your procedure on the frame bedding.

Okay...from your last post it appears that you might have had an "oops". If you have corrected that and your measurements are closer to spec you can go ahead and level. Would you mind iterating how you intend to accomplish the leveling procedure?

Pwg


I'm glad you mention that. I will absolutely need to re-bed the key frame now. I obviously had something tweaked when I torqued down the action stack last time around.

When you mention leveling, are you referring to leveling the keyframe to the keybed or leveling the keys?

Matt
Leveling the keys.
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Leveling the keys.


My plans were to follow the Yamaha manual. I do not have it in front of me at the moment. From what I recall, it lists that you set proper height with keys 1 and 88. Then use a straight material to place across keys 1-88 and lower or raise the keys to match.

Now, I do not have a device to lock keys 1 & 88 at their exact height. So, I may need to create a tool for this or buy something if this cannot be easily done. For the straight edge, I bought a 48" x 1" x 1/16" piece of aluminum angle bar to lay across the keyboard.
Okay...after you are satisfied the the frame is properly bedded:

1) Make wood blocks with appropriate holes to go over front pins on 1 & 88 to solidly support them at the exact height you decide on (of course remove all punching from these so you have a solid surface...keep track of these punchings).

2) Since you probably do not have a set of lead weights for clipping on the backcheck, you'll need to have action in place. Take care of any keys that are too high first.

3) Sort your punchings by color and use a micrometer to record their thicknesses. First find a punching that fills the gap between key and straightedge and then use one HALF that thickness on the BR (2:1 ratio). Estimate a bunch and put the appropriate punching on the top of each key.

4) Remove the action, lift each key needing a punching, remove the cloth punching and put the paper punching underneath, reassemble. Repeat for all your estimated ones and then put everything back together to see how well you did.

5) Repeat as needed. Don't try to get it perfect in one pass, be conservative. Make sure you are doing all of the measuring INSIDE the piano in playing position.

6) For the sharps make two little wood blocks exactly 1/2" high and put them on 1 & 88 (still supported of course) and level the sharps the same way. The ratio is slightly different but you catch on quickly.

It's tedious and bothersome. Not the most fun job, but that's how we do it. (Yamaha has a laser contraption that reads the gap exactly and tells the operator the precise combination of punchings to add under each key...I think they do it in one pass...nice).

Pwg
Pwg - Check your PM's when you can, I sent you one.

I really appreciate all of the detailed help with your list!

For the wood blocks, I imagine this should be extremely exact pieces to hold the key height at exactly 64mm? If so, I have a good idea how I can make those.

For the sharps, I bought this tool - https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/piano-sharp-leveling-device/ which I already tried. Seems fairly easy to use but I haven't used it to actually adjust the sharps yet.

I can see how it will be a very tedious job. However, I also understand how important it is to have correct!
When I toured the Bösendorfer factory I learned about a cool trick they use. They drill two small holes about 6 inches apart in the wood in the front middle section of the action and screw a leather strap to when they need to keep taking the action in and out like doing voicing for example. The strap serves as a temporary drawer handle. It makes it much easier than not having a temporary handle. When I got home and checked mine sure enough there were two small holes. I made my own strap out of an old belt and two screws. When my technician came the next time I taught him something new smile
I recently discovered what I believe to be contributing to the noise I'm hearing in the action. I've found several keys that (as Yamaha describes in their manual) would be 'pully keys'. There is fore/aft movement in them basically. Most of the keys are ok but there are ~10 keys that make noise when you move them fore/aft.

As far as repairing, I've read it's best to mix TiteBond glue with water and soak the solution into the base of the key. What I would like to know is the best ratio (50/50?) to mix and how much to apply to the wood?
Yes, "pulley" keys will make noise that is hard to pinpoint. Good call Matt. You are referring to what w call glue sizing. 50/50 is a bit rich...more like 15% - 20% glue...just enough to try to lock the fibers in place after swelling. If you put the keys on the pins as they are drying (sane basic principle as the key bushings with cauls) that should get them right about where they need to be. You made need to polish those affected pins again afterward (no big deal).

Any errant movement in the keys also gets transmitted up into the action affecting the way the hammer strikes the strings (clean or messy). It amazes me how the tone of a piano clears up (not to mention control improvement) when pulley keys are eliminated (and esp when coupled with nice, solid bushing work).

No harm in treating even the ones that aren't yet flopping around but just slightly loose. A tight but fee fit is ideal.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yes, "pulley" keys will make noise that is hard to pinpoint. Good call Matt. You are referring to what w call glue sizing. 50/50 is a bit rich...more like 15% - 20% glue...just enough to try to lock the fibers in place after swelling. If you put the keys on the pins as they are drying (sane basic principle as the key bushings with cauls) that should get them right about where they need to be. You made need to polish those affected pins again afterward (no big deal).

Any errant movement in the keys also gets transmitted up into the action affecting the way the hammer strikes the strings (clean or messy). It amazes me how the tone of a piano clears up (not to mention control improvement) when pulley keys are eliminated (and esp when coupled with nice, solid bushing work).

No harm in treating even the ones that aren't yet flopping around but just slightly loose. A tight but fee fit is ideal.

Pwg


I think that's a great idea. I'll go ahead and treat most of the keys so I'm started with a good tight fit at the balance rail. The one video I found, they were using Q-tips to soak into the solution then set them in the bottom of key. Any practice to follow in regards to how much or how long to soak the solution into the key?
Just enough to swell the hole. No need to go bananas. Q-tip is a good idea.

Pwg
I’m dealing with pulley keys too. I found one pretty serious and no-compromise method of fixing it but it’s an overkill smile Anyway, here it is: http://pianomaker.co.uk/technical/pully_keys/

I read about another solution on this forum although I lost the link. You put fine wood dust and seal it with cyanocrilate. Then you file it with a fine ”needle” file. People say it makes it very hard and durable, fixing the inherent problem of soft sugar pine wood in the keys being prone to pulling.
Wanted to provide a bit of an update.

It took me several nights to figure out how to correctly address the pulley keys. At first I tried to use a dropper with a 6:1 ratio of water / Titebond wood glue. Using a dropper, I placed a drop on the surface of the key bottom where it rests on the balance rail. After waiting 24 hours, I placed the key back on the balance rail. I felt zero change and the same clunk was there.

For round 2 I tried again but used a bit weaker 10:1 ratio of water to glue. I was thinking the glue made it too hard for the solution to penetrate into the wood. Again applied and waited 24 hours. Again, no change. At this point I was worried that the keys could not be repaired. After finding an article stating that some keys are made from softer wood and only require a drop of water, I made one more attempt with a change since the Yamaha uses hard wood for the keys.

For round 3, I went back to the 6:1 ratio using warm water. Then I used Q-tips with about 50% of the cotton removed from the end. I dipped the end of the Q-tip into the solution then rotated it into the key pin hole and let it sit for 60 mins. I removed the Q-tips then waited 24 hours. To my surprise, it worked! The keys have zero play and the clunk is completely gone now!

The next night I removed ~20 keys and performed the same method and they all came out great. I was a bit worried to try to soak the keys as I did not want to damage them. Since the keys are hard wood, it's clear that they need more setup time for the solution to work. Time to do the rest now.
For what its worth:
I have in the past purchased predrilled inserts. Just rout out the existing balance rail hole and a bit of material around it and glue in the insert.
Its more of a permanent fix. Just takes a bit of skill to locate the hole properly so key spacing remains good.
I believe that Blackstone Valley Piano still sells the inserts.
They also sell inserts for front rail mortise replacement, felt included.
All of the balance rail holes have been treated on the keys. I'm looking for some feedback on how to handle the next few steps. Please take a look at the video.

Matt,


You are in GOOD shape! Nice job...could not ask for any better than that. The holes will "ease" up a tad anyway just with a few hours of usage.

You may now go on to key leveling, etc. 👍

Pwg
Peter,

That's great news! This step took quite a bit longer than I thought it would have but I'm happy the results are as good as I could expect! I'll go ahead and try to start on the key leveling later today.

Thanks!
Matt
Wanted to take a moment to provide a quick update for the thread. With the holidays over the past month or so, I did not have much time to dedicate to the piano work. Well, at least not as much as I would have wanted to.

I will upload some videos later today or tomorrow to illustrate some of the details in the post as well as a few questions I have.

So, I moved on to the key leveling and .....wow.... that was a lot more work than I thought it would be! I must have had 15+ hours in that step. I may have gone a bit overboard on how I went through the steps (using automotive feeler gauges, measuring to perfection etc) but I'm beyond pleased with the results. At this point, all of the black and whites are leveled absolutely perfectly. The action is sitting in the piano and ready to start on the actual regulation steps. I plan to make a few tools to measure hammer blow distance, let-off and drop with the action in the piano. After I have those measurements, I will come back to this thread for feedback.

Now for some good. After I finished leveling the keys I figured I would see how the action felt/sounded. The key noise in the pulley keys is gone. There is still some noise which may be normal when you release the key. I'll get a good video of this to illustrate exactly what I mean. Now the playing (and my playing is not good)....wow! Even with the regulation way off the piano plays worlds better! All of these proper foundation and cleaning/polishing has made a huge difference! I cannot believe how quiet I can play now! The overall dynamic control is hugely improved. It's so much better now that if I did not know the regulation was so far off, I would leave it as-is and be happy with the piano. I'll leave this post here for now and update more with videos and pictures in the very near future.

-Matt-
Matt,

Thanks for the update. You now know why many of us (not all though) have a distaste for leveling keys. Personally it is my least favorite operation to look forward to in action work, though once I actually get going with it that feeling wanes. Still, I groan every time I have to start. Looking forward to SEEING your work.

Pwg
Peter,

Yes, I can absolutely see why there would be a distaste for key leveling. This step took much longer than I would have ever estimated. The process of installing the action into the piano, taking key height measurements, removing the action, changing punchings, action back in...over and over. The professionals here earned a lot of respect from me throughout this step! Key leveling from scratch requires a huge amount of patience! You will see in the video that it's probably as good as I can set things up. However, feel free to let me know if anything I did with my amateur method was wrong, could be improved, etc.

The video is a bit long so I do apologize for that. Hopefully I explain everything that needed to be outlined.

Video description of the procedure I used to level the keys for my Yamaha G5 action
Video isn't working for me. Can you just post the YouTube URL so we can try viewing there? Thanks!
The video is a bit long so I do apologize for that. Hopefully I explain everything that needed to be outlined.

Video description of the procedure I used to level the keys for my Yamaha G5 action
Thanks Matt, video works now. I think your method is very good, using the wood cylinders was a great idea. Once everything is regulated, I bet things will feel pretty nice on that piano. Then you can go down the road I'm on of reducing strike weights and inertia. I'd be curious to see how you approach filing down hammers and cutting key leads, if you decide to do that.

Nice job man.
Matt,

Very nice work. As was expected! 😁

So, for the side to side gap equalizing there is a tool which fits over the front rail pin that allows you to bend the pins slightly to make things perfect (one uses this UNDER the cloth punching so as not to inadvertently nick the "business" portion of the pin). In your case I would not worry about it at this point.

Secondly, taper your "key dip block" slightly front to back to correspond with effect of the key arc. I don't know what the spec is on this from front to back but my guess would be roughly .010" or perhaps slightly more. That way you will get a more consistent "reading" with your finger, even if you slightly vary your position on the block. All of our dip blocks are tapered in this way.

For leveling the sharps (you did a fine job) one can simply make two 12mm blocks and set them on the end keys even with the sharp fronts (keeping the naturals supports in place) and just use the exact same procedure as for the naturals. That's the way I do it anyway. Your way is obviously fine also.

For determining what size punching at the BR, it's a 2:1 ratio so just as you used your feeler gauge, we stick a colored punching in there to fill up the gap, and then choose one HALF that thickness to put on the BR. Usually comes out pretty close. (So if a blue punching just fills the gap, a green punching goes on the BR, etc.)

Again, great work!

Pwg
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Thanks Matt, video works now. I think your method is very good, using the wood cylinders was a great idea. Once everything is regulated, I bet things will feel pretty nice on that piano. Then you can go down the road I'm on of reducing strike weights and inertia. I'd be curious to see how you approach filing down hammers and cutting key leads, if you decide to do that.

Nice job man.


I did your video about adjusting striking weights. Feel free to post a video sharing your ideas, plans and methods along the way.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

Very nice work. As was expected! 😁

So, for the side to side gap equalizing there is a tool which fits over the front rail pin that allows you to bend the pins slightly to make things perfect (one uses this UNDER the cloth punching so as not to inadvertently nick the "business" portion of the pin). In your case I would not worry about it at this point.

Secondly, taper your "key dip block" slightly front to back to correspond with effect of the key arc. I don't know what the spec is on this from front to back but my guess would be roughly .010" or perhaps slightly more. That way you will get a more consistent "reading" with your finger, even if you slightly vary your position on the block. All of our dip blocks are tapered in this way.

For leveling the sharps (you did a fine job) one can simply make two 12mm blocks and set them on the end keys even with the sharp fronts (keeping the naturals supports in place) and just use the exact same procedure as for the naturals. That's the way I do it anyway. Your way is obviously fine also.

For determining what size punching at the BR, it's a 2:1 ratio so just as you used your feeler gauge, we stick a colored punching in there to fill up the gap, and then choose one HALF that thickness to put on the BR. Usually comes out pretty close. (So if a blue punching just fills the gap, a green punching goes on the BR, etc.)

Again, great work!

Pwg


After I read your response here, I went back and tried my key block. I'm not comfortable using it anymore. Mainly because I feel if a tool cannot have 100% repetitive results, it's the wrong tool. There is too much "feeling if it's right or wrong" while using it. It's most noticed when returning to a key that I felt was right a minute ago. So, I will probably make a new block with a different method to also include the ramp measurement you mentioned.

As far as the key tilt. I will try to tilt the two keys so their visual appearance is best. On the leveling, I would say it's as good as I can get it.

So, now this for the purpose of this video. This whole process started with how noisy the action was. I fixed most of the noise with the worn / pulley keys. This video illustrates some other noises which I think is the jack resetting against the felt pad where it normal rests.



I'll post more as I continue through all of these steps.

Thanks for all of the help!
Matt
Yamaha may be willing to sell you an "official" key dip block for small money. That way you can be confident of your results. ☺

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yamaha may be willing to sell you an "official" key dip block for small money. That way you can be confident of your results. ☺

Pwg


I just e-mailed Yamaha tech support to see if I can order a key drop block. I will report back if they will sell it to me.

Any feedback or opinion on the noise in the last video I posted? I'm fairly certain it's where the Whippen Spoon contacts the Jack Regulating Button after the key is released? Maybe I should replace all of the Regulating Buttons? I'm not sure if this noise is normal?

[Linked Image]
Matt,

I think you are correct, though the rep lever may also be contributing. The way to find out is to adjust the jack. Do you have the regulating tool for the jack button? If so, just slightly turn the screw to the right enough to expose a slightly different profile of felt against the spoon. If that changes the sound then you know you're on the right track. It should minimize it.

If you don't have the tool (we call it a drop screw regulator), I'll bet you could make one. If they'll sell you a dip block they might also sell you a regulator. You'll need it anyway eventually.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

I think you are correct, though the rep lever may also be contributing. The way to find out is to adjust the jack. Do you have the regulating tool for the jack button? If so, just slightly turn the screw to the right enough to expose a slightly different profile of felt against the spoon. If that changes the sound then you know you're on the right track. It should minimize it.

If you don't have the tool (we call it a drop screw regulator), I'll bet you could make one. If they'll sell you a dip block they might also sell you a regulator. You'll need it anyway eventually.

Pwg


Peter,

I did purchase the regulating screw driver off of Amazon but for the life of me, I can't find it. So, I'll need to order another one. Can you let me know the best place or model to purchase? I will need it soon after I finish the key dip regulation work.

Maybe this one? I hope it's ok to post links here?
https://www.amazon.com/Yibuy-Silver...mp;psc=1&refRID=SRHYDE3NHBBRHZ2D8DFR

That's a great idea to turn the button and see what the results are.

Thanks!
Matt
That looks like my drop screw regulator. You'll definitely need one to adjust your drop when you regulate.

As for your key dip block, if your current block is the right depth, just sanding the block at an angle from the front to the back so the back is slightly shallower as Peter suggests should make your block just fine. Key dip is an inexact science anyway since as parts wear, your dip and hammer line will need to be adjusted to accommodate. Therefore even a Yamaha spec block may not give you the best key dip for your piano given the wear.

Also, the only other difference between your block and a "real" key dip block you buy is that a store bought one will have a top surface that feels like a keytop. I think you could achieve a similar effect by putting a few coats of polyurethane or lacquer on the top of your block. But, you'll have to decide if that's worth doing vs. buying a $5 block from Howard Piano Industries. wink
Good news, I just found the drop screw regulator! I knew I ordered one some time ago and glad that I found it. As for my key dip block, I may try to rework another one. If I can make one that sits right at the front of the key and has the proper taper, I'll be good. If not, I'll just order one.

Now, I have a few other questions. I'm fairly certain that the jack regulating button is the noise I'm hearing. Would you guys like for me to remove one of the wippens and make a video going over it? I'm not sure if there is a benefit to seeing it out of the piano?

Peter: I can't see anyway to adjust it on note 35 short of removing the wippen then reinstalling it. I'm ok with that but want to move with caution.

Any idea where I can find replacement regulating button felt? I will contact Yamaha to see if they will sell them separate. However Piano carries green and I would like to stick to red.
I just tinkered around on the piano and noticed I can feel the clunk fairly significantly up into my fingers. Would an over hard / compressed regulating button have this effect?
Not sure this is helpful, but on my Yamaha C7 (circa 1978), if you depress the key and release very slowly, and listen very closely, you can hear a very slight noise upon release. It is certainly not something that is anywhere near noticeable while playing normally, and you have to listen very intently and closely to hear it. It is not something I'm too concerned about, at least for now.

Fact is, I'm thinking that most all grand piano actions will make a similar noise when the key is depressed and released very slowly. But, again, it is not something that is noticeable while playing normally, although it may well be related to normal wear.

Good luck!

Rick
Originally Posted by Rickster
Not sure this is helpful, but on my Yamaha C7 (circa 1978), if you depress the key and release very slowly, and listen very closely, you can hear a very slight noise upon release. It is certainly not something that is anywhere near noticeable while playing normally, and you have to listen very intently and closely to hear it. It is not something I'm too concerned about, at least for now.

Fact is, I'm thinking that most all grand piano actions will make a similar noise when the key is depressed and released very slowly. But, again, it is not something that is noticeable while playing normally, although it may well be related to normal wear.

Good luck!

Rick



What you describe is what I would say is normal. The middle section of my G5 has more noise than the lower bass and upper treble sections. That's the only reason why I think that the felt is compressed (worn) on those specific keys. As well, this is the area of the keyboard where the pulley keys were. I'm happy to spend a bit of time in that area to reduce some noise and the clunking I feel in the keys. Granted, it is much better now that the pulley keys are repaired, I would like to work towards keeping it as quiet as possible.

BTW - I would love to have a C7! I hope to potentially sell my G5 in the next few years and purchase a low mileage C7.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
BTW - I would love to have a C7! I hope to potentially sell my G5 in the next few years and purchase a low mileage C7.

Yes, I love the C7, despite some wear for its age. I purchased it from a large Church that had built a new building and went to all digital pianos for their music program. The C7 had a few broken bass bichord strings when I bought it, but I used that as part of the negotiation process.

The Church had owned the C7 for several years, and the minister of music, who was in charge of selling the C7, didn't know much about the history of it. To show my lack of knowledge about pianos in general, I honestly thought the C7 had been rebuilt at some point in its life, due to the vibrant color of the gold paint on the plate, which I thought had been repainted (that is how good it looked), and the color and general appearance of all the felts, fallboard felt, string under-felt, mute strip felt, looked newish, compared to other used grand pianos I had looked at that were much younger than the C7. The strings looked newish, no rust, and the tuning pins looked newish. The varnish on the soundboard looked fresh and newish.

However, Sally Phillips, a well known concert piano tech, came to my home to do some regulation and voicing for me, and said the piano was all original and had not been rebuilt, although in excellent original condition. Boy, was I wrong about it having been rebuilt; I was embarrassed. The lesson I took away from that was that high quality pianos in general, are made with very good quality materials to begin with, and made to last a long time.

The C7 sounds fabulous, and plays great. I replaced the key-bushings a couple of years ago, just because there was a small amount of side-to-side play. That project went very well.

Fact is, I was doing some adjustment on the action una corda shift/movement, and Peter Grey helped me through that process. Peter is a great guy, and a great piano tech! I wish he were closer to my location. I would love to take him out to lunch and buy his lunch, as a gesture of appreciation for all of his help and advice! smile

Looks like he's been a big help to you here as well, regarding your extensive action regulation.

Also, it looks like you are doing a great job! You remind me of myself, ... a determined perfectionist, but much younger! smile

Rick

P.S. here is a pic of the C7 action after the key bushing job...
[Linked Image]
Matt,

Generally all you need to do is lift the shank a little, and fish around in there from the front with your tool to find the reg screw. Lots if light helps too.

Pwg
Rickster - Would you mind going into some details on the key bushings and how it was done? If my funds were better, I would have loved to replace all of them.


Peter - I'll yank the action out of the piano later today and see if that will work out. As always, I'll report back any good or bad findings to this thread.
Matt,

For a beginner you've done the best thing possible with the bushings.

Pwg
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Rickster - Would you mind going into some details on the key bushings and how it was done? If my funds were better, I would have loved to replace all of them.

Before I decided to do the key bushings myself, I got a quote from a reputable dealer/rebuilder north of Atlanta. They said they would do it for $375, if I brought the action to them and came to pick it up when finished. That sounded like a reasonable price to me.

I based my decision to do it myself on two factors, first, I hate driving to Atlanta, and/or the outskirts of Atlanta; the traffic is the worst in the US, as far as I'm concerned. Secondly, I decided this was something I needed to learn myself, for future restorations, if nothing else.

I watched several videos on replacing key bushings on YT. I ordered the proper size bushing cawls for the front pin mortise and the balance rail. I ordered 12 cawls of each size. I ordered two different thicknesses of high quality key bushing cloth. I used a small, soldering iron and a syringe to moisten the old bushings. The moisture and soldering iron worked great to loosen the old bushings and then remove them; the tip of the soldering iron fit inside the key bushing mortise perfectly.

I removed the keys from the action, and could only do 12 keys at a time, and let the glue dry before doing 12 more, so it took a while. I used regular, Tightbond wood glue, which is what I saw used on some of the YT videos. Once I figured out the best size bushing cloth to use, and how long a piece of bushing cloth to cut, I got a system going that went smoothly. The hardest part was waiting for the glue to dry on only 12 keys at a time.

Once all the keys were rebushed, I reassembled the action and started documenting the keys that needed easing. It took a couple of cycles of humidity changes to notice which keys needed easing. Out of 88 keys, I had to ease the bushings on maybe a dozen keys, mostly in the bass section.

After it was all done, I felt a noticeable difference/improvement in how well the action played. The action was not real sloppy to begin with, and the rebush job probably could have waited a bit longer, but a few keys could be moved side-to-side enough to touch the neighboring key. The thing about the Yamaha action is that the keys are pretty close together to begin with, which is a feature I like, a lot. Some pianos have a wider gap between the keys. I like a narrow gap between the keys.

Currently, there is still one or two keys in the lower bass section that could use easing a bit, depending on the humidity level. But that is a small inconvenience compared to the improvement in how the keys feel with the new key bushings.

One of the techs (maybe Peter?) mentioned that I could have used the next size larger cawls and would have had to do less key easing. But that is how we learn, by doing, even if we make mistakes. However, I don't think having to ease a few keys after the rebush job was necessarily a mistake. smile

Good luck!

Rick
Wow, sounds like quite the job that you took on. Part of me wishes that I went that route but I'm knocking things out a permitted by budget. For my bushings, the ProVelt seemed to work. However, we'll see how well that works once I get back to taking lessons and learning to play again! I had no idea that I would be rebuilding the action to relearn how to play piano again...ha!

Video showing the noise I think is too loud.
Excellent video on the action noise, and jack adjustment, Matt. This is something I probably need to look at, but it is not high on my list of priorities at the moment.

As for the key bushings and the Profelt treatment, I have read and heard very good things about this treatment. This treatment would have probably worked on my C7 key bushings, but the keys have new bushings now, so it is hindsight. Plus, I learned something in the process.

Keep up the great work, Matt! smile

Rick
Matt,

Yes, the lions share of that noise is in the jack reg felt. Changing it is a pretty big deal. I don't recommend it at this time. Here is what I would do first if it was under my care:

1) Notice the two hash marks on the top of the repetition levers. These represent the ideal position of the BACK side of the jacks (factory setting) which would ideally cause the top of the jack to align with the back side of the knuckle insert. (Look this up online) I would adjust the jacks to that position, OR SLIGHTLY ahead (toward the keys). This will do two things...provide a new felt profile against the spoon, and reduce the overall amount of jack travel (assuming of course that they are currently not aligned properly).

2) If that doesn't do the job enough (noise), I would get in there with a needle and fluff up the felt a little to ease the compaction. (Okay, you might reverse this procedure since it could affect the alignment but I would test it out first, preferring the more compacted felt for stability reasons...but you can probably follow my line of reasoning here).

3) You may need to look at the strength of the spring in the rep lever as well as the interface between the knuckle and rep lever...later.

4) VS-PROFELT will soften the felt also, but if it comes to this one must be very careful. Try the above first. (Edit: I forgot that you already know about this stuff)

The reason it sounds louder in the piano is because it is being amplified by the structure (you probably did a good job bedding the keyframe to the keybed so any sound is transmitted faithfully to the keybed, etc.) However, don't forget to put ALL case parts back into position and play in real time to determine if it is still too noisy. The fallboard and music desk will shield the noise somewhat. Additionally, some keybeds are more "lively" than others.

If all this does not solve the noise problem then replacement is probably in order. Not a job I would look forward to.

Pwg
If felt is noisy, needling helps.
Would you mind touching on the steps to replace it? From what I can see, all of the hammers would have to come off, then remove the front aluminum structure that the wippens attach to. Basically move everything out of the way to remove the wippens one by one.

Then(?)
Remove the jack button from the jack regulating screw
Remove the felt from the button (heat, razor ,etc?)
Glue/Attach new button felt
Reinstall jack button onto regulating screw

Does this seem correct?

While I only played the piano for a few minutes, I would say you can definitely feel the noise more than you can hear it. I know how to play most of Moonlight Sonata 1st movement so playing quietly you could only barely hear the noise. So I would honestly say that feeling it clunk/knock back into the keys was more annoying than anything.
With the right knife, you do not need to remove the button.
Ladies and gentleman, I do believe I have discovered a bigger issue. Watch the video and then see if you agree with my thoughts which I'll add under the video.



As you see, there is obviously a slight amount of binding in the wippen/spring. There is no way that this is normal. When I compare the regulating button noise between the wippen 35 & 79, it's minimal. So, What I envision is happening is that the repetition level spring is binding in the wippen then accelerates the jack button into the spoon faster than normal as the spring is 'released' from the grove in the underside of the repetition lever. At this point I will need to have a few of the wippens inspected to see if it's worth reworking the area where the spring rests in the underside of the repetition lever.

Thoughts?
Further Inspection. I've discovered a bigger issue apparently.

I don't have time to read everything previously here, but I would recommend to complete your regulation in its entirety first, then address problems found after. For example, from your video maybe some springs could be adjusted way too strong - and this is another important step of a complete regulation. I see regulation as interactive and also cumulative, in the sense that every time you complete all steps, everything becomes gradually more stable and at the right place. Then at the next regulation, all adjustments needed will be way less than previously, etc. About springs, on my grand piano I personally adjust them very light, almost weak, as I like my action to be. YMMV
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
I don't have time to read everything previously here, but I would recommend to complete your regulation in its entirety first, then address problems found after. For example, from your video maybe some springs could be adjusted way too strong - and this is another important step of a complete regulation. I see regulation as interactive and also cumulative, in the sense that every time you complete all steps, everything becomes gradually more stable and at the right place. Then at the next regulation, all adjustments needed will be way less than previously, etc. About springs, on my grand piano I personally adjust them very light, almost weak, as I like my action to be. YMMV


I would typically agree with this method. However, what I just recently discovered is a finding to put the brakes on. These wippens will need some wood working attention before moving forward.

Is this the best tool to remove and re-install the center pins?
https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/piano-center-pin-extracting-repinning-tool/
Further discoveries with the wippens. You may need good headphones or speakers to hear what I am. Looks like I will be getting up close and personal with the wippens now!

What I mean by this is you need to adjust the tension of the springs before repairing, because if some of them are set way too strong, you will continue to damage the wood where they end up touching. Do as you wish, but personally I would complete the regulation, and then proceed with the repairs noted during each step.
The repetition lever does not go down that far normally. The hammer is stopped by the cushion. Having it stop before it goes down too far is a good thing.
Matt,

You are spot on, and experiencing another piece of evidence that proves the fact that the designers KNEW that a piano has about a 30-40 year lifespan, at which point significant issues would need to be addressed. Simply a fact resulting from the materials used, and the methods of manufacture.

Yes, it is simply wear and tear. Your automotive (and obvious mechanical prowess) background is a good parallel.

Your proposed fix is a good one. Simply smooth out the "bearing channel", lubricate (sharp #2 pencil works pretty well but if you come up with something better I want to know), and reset the "bearing". However I suggest doing it WITHOUT de-pinning it. You'll need more tools and experience to re-pin than you probably want to get into.

Evidence would seem to indicate that the previous owner played the SAME tunes on the SAME keys MANY MANY times, wearing the daylights out of those notes. I would be willing to wager (if I were a betting man) that they correlate to the simpler keys using mostly naturals...C, F, G

Pwg
If you are going to go to all that trouble and be removing al the whips, you might as well plan on bolstering the whip cushion too, as that is often a significant noise generator in a heavily used action.

Pwg
I have read about setting spring tension. This is unfortunately something I do not know how to do correctly. If I had a tool to measure tension or torque of the spring, that would make life easier. Any tips on how to do it? I can say that all of the springs feel uniform as I slowly press them down.

Peter - I would feel more comfortable removing the repetition lever then inspect with a magnifying glass while repairing the spring groove. Is there something I could potentially damage by removing the pin? I have the pin tool sitting in my cart at Howard Piano so let me know for sure if I shouldn't go that route. For lube, the only thing I can think of is graphite or PTFE powder?
Originally Posted by P W Grey
If you are going to go to all that trouble and be removing al the whips, you might as well plan on bolstering the whip cushion too, as that is often a significant noise generator in a heavily used action.

Pwg


Is this the felt that rides on top of the capstan?
I must say that I find this discussion very interesting, and I feel like I'm learning something.

Also, I must say that of all the things I've studied and researched and read regarding grand piano regulation, I have never read or heard of this issue (spring grove bearing wear/indentation in the grove) discussed or mentioned, ever. I have read about adjusting the whippen spring tension as part of the regulation process.

Also again (:-), what about BDB's suggestion that the jack doesn't move that high inside the top whippen lever during normal play, which would mean the spring might remain in one spot in the grove, and not slide back and forth in the grove. It would seem to me that if that spring slides that much in that bearing grove, it would wear the dickens out of that grove in no time at all. Also, (a third time:-) I have never read that the spring bearing groove in the whippen is a common lubrication point that should be lubricated due to friction.

I'm afraid I'm from Missouri on this one... I would want to see how far the spring slides in that groove during normal playing travel of the whippin parts. It could be that the indention is where the spring resides all the time, and is part of the normal wear and tear process. The sliding back and forth in the groove is what I'm wondering about...

Just a few thoughts.

Rick
Rick,

I'm glad you are learning through this process. I for sure am learning quite a bit as well!

Looking at my #79 whippen while barely moving the repetition lever, I can assure you the spring moves in the groove. As soon as the lever goes into the motion, the spring starts to slide in the groove. If you like, I would be happy to make a video showing this.

I can understand that this is not normal to address. Apparently I purchased a piano with 200k miles on it...haha.
Great videos Matt, good job finding the problem. With respect to Peter, I don't think you'll have much difficulty removing and reinstalling the pin if you have that same pin removing tool from Howard that I have. I am in the process of repinning all the tight flanges on my 1927 Kurtzmann upright, and I am simply punching out the pin, reaming the felt, and reinstalling the pin. My only problem is if sometimes I ream the felt too much, the pin ends up a little loose. But without any reaming, I find replacing the pin results in things going back to how they were.

Worst comes to worst, the flange ends up too loose. In that case, just replace the felt with a new one, and it should be snug again. You've probably seen Howard's video on rebushing flanges, and it pretty much works the way he says. I think that risk is worth the much easier time you'll have working on the wood if you take the wippen apart.

Good luck!
Matt, I watched this video by Howard Piano showing how to adjust the butterfly type repetition lever spring; what I noticed was that when he depresses the key on the grand action model, the repetition lever doesn't move much at all. At least nowhere near as much as you demonstrated in your videos, which are great, I might add.

So, I'm still not convinced that the repetition lever spring moves/slides very much, if at all, in the spring bearing groove in the repetition lever. Also, and this is by no means a criticism, or disagreement, or argument whatsoever, but the way that you are pushing down on the repetition lever to make that spring slide back and forth in the bearing groove is not a normal motion or movement that the whippen assembly would follow during normal playing; or at least that is how it seems to me.

However, I could be wrong.

Here is the video by Howard Piano showing the grand action whippen assembly, and repetition lever going through the motions; I wish I could see the underside of the repetition lever spring bearing groove during this process to see how much it moves/slides in the bearing groove, if any... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q7OxnHkkM

Hey, we both may learn something here! smile

Rick

Rick,

So we can both answer our own questions, he is what I will do tomorrow.

1.) Install the hammer section back onto the action stack.
2.) Install the action stack back on the key frame.

Then I will measure how far the jack exits the repetition window with the key pressed all the way down. I will measure with my dial caliper.
Then I'll take it back apart and move the repetition lever to the point that was measured during normal keyboard movement.

No questions after that! :-)
Matt, I think you're doing a good job of locating the issues with this piano.

You don't need to put everything back together to determine the travel of the spring. The point of resistance is the end of the spring travel. This wear can effect performance if you make changes to the regulation that change the travel of the spring. For this reason I would definitely correct the wear.

I would avoid disassembling the wipppin if at all possible. I've reworked that grove many times and have never had to take them apart. The spring can be lifted out to the side giving you room to work. You'll have to figure out the best way to rework the grove. Be sure to re-lubricate the grove afterwards. Also make sure the the spring surface is smooth so that it doesn't quickly wear the grove again.

While the wippens are out I would treat the jack return cushion and the heal cushion with VS Profelt. The felt needs to dry without any spring tension on it. That will reduce a lot of noise.
Well...

Obviously something has caused extreme wear in the rep spring dept on this piano. Whatever is normal or abnormal is kind of not really an issue (at least to me). It needs to be addressed for proper function from here on out.

I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.

If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.


So, the groove needs to be smoothed to eliminate the depression, then cleaned and lubricated (graphite pencil), then use a moto-tool with brush to polish the loop on the spring, re-install and regulate. All this should be able to be done without disconnecting the rep lever. Re-pinning is not as easy as it "appears" (that is doing it properly), and I think you would be creating much more unnecessary work for yourself (unless of course you are planning to become a piano technician, but why would anyone want to do that?)

And if I was doing this I would absolutely bolster the whip/capstan cloth (yes Matt, you are correct on that) since it's already out. Remember that ALL parts have been subjected to heavy use here, not just one or two, but put your time in where it really counts (that's my viewpoint anyway), and if you really want to replace those jack punchings, do it while they're out and easily accessible.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Obviously something has caused extreme wear in the rep spring dept on this piano. Whatever is normal or abnormal is kind of not really an issue (at least to me). It needs to be addressed for proper function from here on out.

I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.

If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.

This makes a lot of sense, Peter, and seems to me to be the most logical explanation of the indention wear in the whippen assembly return lever spring groove. Also, and this is pure conjecture on my part, if that return spring traveled/moved back and forth in the groove bearing, as was demonstrated, there would be a longer area of wear in that bearing groove/slot than just a small indention in the wood in one spot. The wear pattern in the groove would be much longer, and deeper, most likely, and would mimic the travel pattern/distance in the spring groove.

You say that you have reworked and smoothed out this area on worn whippen assemblies/repetition levers many times over the years. I would think this would be a normal/routine part of rebuilding/refurbishing the whippen assembly. But I'm on the outside looking in. smile

By-the-way, I watched your YT video in your PW member signature, and I enjoyed watching it. And, since it was actually a TV station production/broadcast, you are a TV celebrity! smile

I always enjoy your posts, and your generosity in sharing your exceptional Piano Tech wisdom, skills, knowledge and experience with others here on PW!

Rick
I will try to address everyones comments in this response.

Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Matt, I think you're doing a good job of locating the issues with this piano.

You don't need to put everything back together to determine the travel of the spring. The point of resistance is the end of the spring travel. This wear can effect performance if you make changes to the regulation that change the travel of the spring. For this reason I would definitely correct the wear.

I would avoid disassembling the wipppin if at all possible. I've reworked that grove many times and have never had to take them apart. The spring can be lifted out to the side giving you room to work. You'll have to figure out the best way to rework the grove. Be sure to re-lubricate the grove afterwards. Also make sure the the spring surface is smooth so that it doesn't quickly wear the grove again.

While the wippens are out I would treat the jack return cushion and the heal cushion with VS Profelt. The felt needs to dry without any spring tension on it. That will reduce a lot of noise.


I started to work on one of the whippen spring groves using a very small Craftsman file. There are 6 different files in the set. I started using the rounded tip to blend the non-indented areas before and after the groove. After those were gone, I switched to a oval type and used it on it's side, as it's profile closely matches the groove. The wear in the groove is now gone, however I would like it to be smoother. I'm going to go crap some sand paper too hopefully end up with a very smooth surface. As far as lubrication, Peter mentioned #2 so that's all I know to use now.

Jack return cushion, you are referring to the jack regulating button? I apologize if I don't grasp all of the lingo. There is quite a bit more felt in those areas vs the key bushings. So, should I be using more than a drop?


Originally Posted by P W Grey
Well...

I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.

If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.


So, the groove needs to be smoothed to eliminate the depression, then cleaned and lubricated (graphite pencil), then use a moto-tool with brush to polish the loop on the spring, re-install and regulate. All this should be able to be done without disconnecting the rep lever. Re-pinning is not as easy as it "appears" (that is doing it properly), and I think you would be creating much more unnecessary work for yourself (unless of course you are planning to become a piano technician, but why would anyone want to do that?)

And if I was doing this I would absolutely bolster the whip/capstan cloth (yes Matt, you are correct on that) since it's already out. Remember that ALL parts have been subjected to heavy use here, not just one or two, but put your time in where it really counts (that's my viewpoint anyway), and if you really want to replace those jack punchings, do it while they're out and easily accessible.

With the whip/capstan. Are we you just talking about adding a few VS Profelt drops to the area? Maybe needle before or after?
I like the idea to polish the spring tip as well. Thank you for mentioning that as I would have overlooked it.
I will go through the repair and polishing first then circle back around with a clear video to help check the spring tension. Thank you for the explanation on how we are going to do that.

Pwg


Rickster - If you go back and watch my first video of the whippen/spring. You can clearly see the spring sliding in the groove. While it is not a lot of movement, it is there. There spring does not pivot which as that would cause the spring tension to move up and down as it's compressed and decompressed. When it slides, the spring tension would stay more uniform through the movement of the repetition lever.


Thanks everyone!!!
Would this powder graphite be an ideal lubricant for the area in questions? Or PTFE powder?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hillman-3-g-Powdered-Graphite-Lubricant-703185/100137063
Hi Matt,

I was just wondering if you are going to rework all 88 whippen assemblies/repetition lever spring grooves, or just the ones you notice the indention? Just curious.

I'm interested to know if this resolves the noise issue, or improves it, which is apparently the cause of the noise you want to eliminate, at least to some extent.

I just played my Yamaha C7 and I checked the key/action noise when depressing the key, and very slowly releasing it. I do hear that slight bumping noise on all 88 notes, though it may be more pronounced on some notes than others. But, again, it is not at all noticeable when playing normally, at least to me. I'm sure the whippin assemblies have some wear due to the age of the piano.

At some point, I may follow your lead and refurbish the whippen assemblies on my C7, but it is not something that seems to be pressing at the moment. I'm enjoying just playing it for now, and having a ball! smile

Good luck!

Rick
Originally Posted by Rickster
Hi Matt,

I was just wondering if you are going to rework all 88 whippen assemblies/repetition lever spring grooves, or just the ones you notice the indention? Just curious.

I'm interested to know if this resolves the noise issue, or improves it, which is apparently the cause of the noise you want to eliminate, at least to some extent.

I just played my Yamaha C7 and I checked the key/action noise when depressing the key, and very slowly releasing it. I do hear that slight bumping noise on all 88 notes, though it may be more pronounced on some notes than others. But, again, it is not at all noticeable when playing normally, at least to me. I'm sure the whippin assemblies have some wear due to the age of the piano.

At some point, I may follow your lead and refurbish the whippen assemblies on my C7, but it is not something that seems to be pressing at the moment. I'm enjoying just playing it for now, and having a ball! smile

Good luck!

Rick


Rick - Unfortunately for me and my personality.....if I find an issue in one piece of a machine, I won't be able to sleep if I skip over some sections. So, it's fair to assume that every single whippen will be coming off for inspection and attention.

The noise you describe is normal to an extent. I base this off of when I recently took a month or so of lessons. Which I stopped because I was unable to practice at home. Anyway, the pianos I was learning on were a recent Yamaha CFX and a Yamaha C6X (or whatever the newer model is). During my lessons, I ended up mostly focusing on how the action felt to take mental notes and less on the actual learning, ha! With that said, I will say that the bump felt from the jack escaping from the knuckle is normal and the slight bump when the jack returns to rest on the spoon is also normal. My piano had a significant clunk heard and felt in the key with the jack returned to the spoon. Definitely not normal!

As another note. I ordered the pin tool from howard piano just in-case I get in a situation where I will end up needing it.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Would this powder graphite be an ideal lubricant for the area in questions? Or PTFE powder?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hillman-3-g-Powdered-Graphite-Lubricant-703185/100137063

Matt, I have used that exact product before on door locks. It is not easy to apply, and goes everywhere (even where you do not want it to go) and makes a mess. I honestly think Peter's suggestion to use a basic #2 pencil is the better idea.

The powdered graphite will go everywhere, like dust in the wind, but the sharp pencil would be much more strategic, and stay where you put it... just my opinion.

All the best!

Rick
Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg


Is it this post, Peter?

Originally Posted by P W Grey
If you bolster, here's what I do:

1) Thinnest bushing cloth I have (about .033") ripped to a strip about 1/8" - 3/16" wide.

2) Taper one end (as if to rebush a flange).

3) Apply CA to the tapered end to harden it (this will become your "needle")

4) After curing hard, sand or file this end to almost a sharp point.

5) With action upside down, lift a whippen and begin inserting the bushing cloth between the whippen cloth and whatever other cushion was originally installed. This should be an unglued area in the center of the cloth. Make sure you hold the whippen body carefully to resist the side pressure you are applying with the bushing cloth (you DON'T want to damage the pinning). As the tapered end protrudes through the other side grab it with tweezers and pull it all the way through till the end is flush, then cut it with a razor blade and go on to the next.

6) Rinse and repeat 87 times


This can have a significant effect on the action as it gets rid of most (or all) of the dimple created by the capstans and restores proper geometry to that portion. It should reduce friction further. Lasts a long time too (usually).

I am assuming this is either a SS or similar with a properly set up whippen cushion. Some makers glued their cloth all the way and therefore this will not work.

Pwg
Thanks Ando,

Yes, that's the one. Makes a significant difference after years of compaction.

Pwg
You can take an appropriately shaped piece of metal and burnish the grove after filing to smooth it out.

Yes I'm talking about the jack regulating punching. For Profelt, I usually just fill the indentation. I do not saturate the punching. Let it dry overnight without any pressure on it. There is no wear on it just compressed felt so VS Profelt will go a long way to restoring it.
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg


I took a look at the cushion on the bottom of the whippen last night. I can honestly say, I can't see much of an improvement to be made there. As well, I don't think your described method will work for my scenario. However, I will take a video tonight to discuss what I think you are describing and illustate the condition of the whippen cushion.

I did use the profelt on two of the jack buttons and it restored them to an almost new looking condition. Very surprising! I will make sure to grab this on video as well.

Now about the worn area on the underside of the repetition lever. I used a very small file to taper the worn areas where the spring spent most of it's life. After that I used 400 grit sand paper, then 800 grit, then 1200 grit and finished it off with 000 steel wool. I think it came out great and will share some video footage in a later post for feedback.

Thanks,
Matt
Wanted to get some feedback on this. I have looked into the factory lubricant that Peter mentioned earlier (Emralon). As far as I can tell, Peter is correct in that is what was used on the Yamaha pianos in my pianos era. That product has since evolved and is now marketed and sold as Bonderite L-GP 323 Dry Film Lubricant.

Please take a look at this link and let me know what you guys think. Seems like the right thing to use for the underside of the repetition lever.

https://www.silmid.com/lubricants/dry-film-lubricants/bonderite-l-gp-323-300ml-aerosol/
Great video, Matt, as always! smile

Rick
Looking good Matt.

The treated wippen cushion looks good. It should work fine.
One point I did not mention before, when you redo the grove make sure the grove is a little wider than the thickness of the spring. You don't want the spring to bind in a too narrow grove.

Just in case you don't know, don't try to reinsert the old pin back into the flange. The pin has to have a tapered end to enter the bushing or it can bush the bushing out of the flange.
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Looking good Matt.

The treated wippen cushion looks good. It should work fine.
One point I did not mention before, when you redo the grove make sure the grove is a little wider than the thickness of the spring. You don't want the spring to bind in a too narrow grove.

Just in case you don't know, don't try to reinsert the old pin back into the flange. The pin has to have a tapered end to enter the bushing or it can bush the bushing out of the flange.


Thanks for the tip! The pin tool just showed up this afternoon but I don't plan to use it until this coming weekend. I can see on my pins that one end is a "finished" end and the other looks like it was cut. The finished end basically looks like it was machined to be smooth. So, what exactly do I need to do to the pin to re-insert it?
Matt, you could take some sandpaper or a fine file and slightly taper one end of your pin.

I agree with Bill about pushing the bushing out of place while repinning. I've done that before on an old upright messing around with a damper lever. Going through the first flange bushing facing you, and into the center bushing is not too difficult. Properly threading the outer bushing on the far side of the flange with the pin is not so easy, because you can't see what you are doing.

Maybe tapering the pin a little and using the repinning tool will help.

Good luck!

Rick
The standard procedure is to always use a new pin when repining. The pin has to fit snugly in the birdseye or it can slowly move out of position. Generally a half size bigger. The new pins are longer and have one end pointed. After confirming the fit to the birdseye, the pin is then fitted to the bushings by reaming. Once the proper friction is obtained, the pin is inserted and the excess is cut off. I'm sure there are U-tube videos on this.
Welp, got myself in a bit of a bind here. Now what? I don't know how to go about this now. Does it need to be rebushed by a professional?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
https://youtu.be/s7YlQwD-5jI
Originally Posted by AWilley


Thanks for the link. I guess I need to figure out what size felt I need to properly repair the bushing.
Note that it isn't felt. It is a woven cloth material, called "bushing cloth". Supply houses sell bushing cloth strips, of the right width and with a pointed end ready to be hardened with glue to push/pull through the hole.
Beautifully clear photos, by the way!
Now you know why we suggested not to unpin the parts! smile
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Now you know why we suggested not to unpin the parts! smile


You guys are the best, and give great advice! thumb

I was just thinking, if one had to rebush all the flanges on an acoustic piano action, that would be an enormous amount of work. I can see where the repinning process, using a slightly larger size pin and not redoing all the flange bushings, (unless necessary), would be the best approach to refurbishing an entire piano action.

Rick
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Originally Posted by AWilley


Thanks for the link. I guess I need to figure out what size felt I need to properly repair the bushing.

Matt, I've rebushed per Anthony's video and it works as described. I also bought the bushing cloth from Howard. It's far more than I need, so if you want me to cut off a piece and mail it to you, just pm me.
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Now you know why we suggested not to unpin the parts! smile


I absolutely see now! However, if I wouldn't have learned a thing if I never took the jump and tried to take on this massive job! Suffice to say, I don't play on unpinning any of the others ha!

Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Originally Posted by AWilley


Thanks for the link. I guess I need to figure out what size felt I need to properly repair the bushing.

Matt, I've rebushed per Anthony's video and it works as described. I also bought the bushing cloth from Howard. It's far more than I need, so if you want me to cut off a piece and mail it to you, just pm me.


Thanks for the offer! I was thinking about contacting one of the local piano shops (Piano Craft or Rick Jones) to see if they have any cloth they could sell. I'll report back if that does not work out.
Matt,

I hate to say "I told you so, but..."

Tools needed for this are:

Pin punch/inserter, reamers, burnishers, micrometer, various sizes of center pins, friction gauge, njshong cloth in various thicknesses, nippers, etc.

Many hours can be spent learning how to do this properly. Not a wise use of time when things are otherwise working acceptably.

Pwg
Matt,

Take the parts over to Rick Jones and ask him to put it back together. I'm sure he will. Tell him I sent you.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

I hate to say "I told you so, but..."

Tools needed for this are:

Pin punch/inserter, reamers, burnishers, micrometer, various sizes of center pins, friction gauge, njshong cloth in various thicknesses, nippers, etc.

Many hours can be spent learning how to do this properly. Not a wise use of time when things are otherwise working acceptably.

Pwg

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

Take the parts over to Rick Jones and ask him to put it back together. I'm sure he will. Tell him I sent you.

Pwg


I know I know. Lesson learned...darn it. I actually just spoke to the folks at Piano Craft. The quote he gave me to rebush and size it up was next to nothing (around $20). So, I will be meeting with them this weekend to have it fixed then continue on with the reconditioning. Rick Jones is about 1.5 hours from me and Piano Craft is around 40 mins so I figured I would try them first.

Since it's not worth it to spend the money on tooling for this one part. I'll leave this crucial step to the pros!
In an attempt to make some DIY lubricant for the area under the repetition lever, I came up with this very "scientific" method....ha. I was going to just mix them up but figured it may be of help to other folks if they end up in a similar situation. I'll post another video after things dry and I do a 2nd coat. As always, let me know if anyone has any pointers or tips to improve things.

Seems to me that DAG 154 already does this.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Seems to me that DAG 154 already does this.

Pwg


You are correct. However, I can't seem to find anywhere to purchase Bonderite products. At least from a consumer standpoint. I'll make another video tonight to illustrate my findings. Suffice to say, the CRC and 2:1 (alcohol to graphite) seem to work very well for this purpose. I'll probably go with the CRC as it appears to have penetrated a bit better into the wood grain.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.mypianoshop.com/store/Acheson-Dag-154-Graphite-Lubricant-USA-ONLY.html&ved=2ahUKEwigm_OpmannAhXPqlkKHag5DiMQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0sO2fgPyqalqw28CXca6PK&cshid=1580314333284


Oops, I don't know how to make it's a live link

Pwg
Copy and paste works just fine, so thanks. Now, I have to wonder how much better this stuff is than the CRC. I'll order it and apply it to the same piece of test wood as a comparison.
This is basically the stuff that was used for many decades before Emralon came along.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
This is basically the stuff that was used for many decades before Emralon came along.

Pwg


In that case, I would say it's probably best to skip my science project and just use the DAG 154.

As always, thank you.
Good evening all. I'm updating the thread because I need some further assistance. I will attempt to illustrate my question here as well as in the video.

So, the project has been moving along (slowly) and I become happier and happier with the outcome. However, I've run into an issue that I've read about more than a few times. With descriptions such as "This will depend on musician thoughts, depends on this or that, etc". So my question is ultimately regarding key dip, or will involve a decision to be made with it's adjustment.

After addressing all of the whippens, which were all removed, I re-assembled the entire action. The first step of the regulation was done by properly setting the hammer blow distance. This was set per Yamaha spec at 46mm on the dot. After that was set, I set let-off to be 2mm. The next item I began to regulate was key dip. I set 4 keys (F3, G3, A3, B3) to 10mm key dip as a test group to work from. After this was set, I noticed that after touch was basically lost. I stopped there and thought about things. If I set the entire piano to 10mm key dip, I will need to go back and reduce blow distance...correct? Ultimately loosing some power from the shorter blow distance?

On the keys that have not had key dip adjusted (it's around 10.5-10.7mm), after touch seems to be ok. So, do I chase exactly 10mm key dip with shorter blow distance, or keep things how they are with proper blow distance and adjust key dip to suite?

Please take a look at the video and let me know your thoughts.



Thank you!!
Hi Matt. I ran into the same issue on my piano. Opinions differ, but I went with the idea that increased key dip compromises the touch more, as key has farther to travel. Therefore I maintained a 10mm dip and decreased the blow distance so the keys would regulate.
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Hi Matt. I ran into the same issue on my piano. Opinions differ, but I went with the idea that increased key dip compromises the touch more, as key has farther to travel. Therefore I maintained a 10mm dip and decreased the blow distance so the keys would regulate.


My thinking would lead me in the opposite direction. I of course could be completely wrong, however, I would think more key travel ultimately would result in more 'resolution'. That is of course if the key dip is within an acceptable range. With that said, I am absolutely fine reducing blow distance to end up with a proper regulation. Just not sure what to do.
Both of the techs that have worked on my piano recommend not increasing dip above 10 mm. I think a search thru PW archives yields both opinions on the topic. My goal has always been to lighten the action and make repetition as fast as possible. Therefore shorter hammer and key travel would seem to achieve that more than the opposite. But, I suspect the difference is minor. The important thing is that the action properly regulates. Here's a good explanation of this by Nick Gravagne:


Seems either way works.
Well Matt...

Have you aligned the jacks to the knuckle cores AND adjusted the rep levers for proper interface with the knuckles? Along with this comes an initial regulation of the rep springs (they must be in the ballpark).

Gotta have the above before anything else has a chance to work. 😨

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Well Matt...

Have you aligned the jacks to the knuckle cores AND adjusted the rep levers for proper interface with the knuckles? Along with this comes an initial regulation of the rep springs (they must be in the ballpark).

Gotta have the above before anything else has a chance to work. 😨

Pwg


To the best of my knowledge, I have completed all of that. My apologies for not mentioning that in the previous post. While you do mention that, it brings up some other questions which I was going to address later.

Those being how jack position effects to smoothness of the keys in slower playing. I have noticed that a few of the bass notes felt a bit 'clunky' on slow depress of the key. So, I slowly moved the jack towards the keys and see that the feeling improved. So, I pulled the action out and see that the jack position is slightly forward of the inscribed lines on top of the repetition lever. I assume this is okay because the action feels better to the player vs the jack being exactly on the inscribed line?
Yes, that is okay as long as it does not "cheat" on any blow. There is wiggle room in that adjustment. You just never want the jack to be "behind" the knuckle core.

Bad as to interfacing...when you depress the heel of the jack you observe an ever so slight "wink" of the hammer. This shows that the rep lever is 'strong enough but not too strong to support the shank by itself (with spring) yet at the same time the jack is in CONTACT with 'but not supporting' the shank.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yes, that is okay as long as it does not "cheat" on any blow. There is wiggle room in that adjustment. You just never want the jack to be "behind" the knuckle core.

Bad as to interfacing...when you depress the heel of the jack you observe an ever so slight "wink" of the hammer. This shows that the rep lever is 'strong enough but not too strong to support the shank by itself (with spring) yet at the same time the jack is in CONTACT with 'but not supporting' the shank.

Pwg


Do you happen to know of a video that illustrates this wink aspect? I'm not sure what you mean?

Do you have any input on what should be done with the key dip vs hammer blow distance? I feel like I will need to sacrifice one setting to meet the other? As it stands right now, blow distance is set to 46mm and the key dip is around 10.5mm.
Matt, this video shows it. He calls it rolling the jack. It means the jack is slightly above the rep lever window so that when you move the jack, it pushes the knuckle a slight amount so the hammer "winks" or barely moves a bit. No movement at all, and the jack is too low.

That video really helps to understand things. I can understand more why it's important to set the jack height in relation to the repetition lever now. I did take some pictures when I was doing this. I'll upload then add them to this thread.
Here are some pictures I took when I initially set the jack / repetition lever. Yamaha manual calls for .100-.200 mm. I set it at .200 mm as seen in the pictures. However, I will go back through and follow the method that Peter suggested and the video shown by Emery.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Just took this video regarding what Peter stated and the video Emery shared. I think I have it wrong?

Matt,

You've got the right idea, but that looks like a little too much "wink". Looks more like a "blink". Jack is a shade too high in relation to the rep lever. The hammer should just barely move.

Pwg
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

You've got the right idea, but that looks like a little too much "wink". Looks more like a "blink". Jack is a shade too high in relation to the rep lever. The hammer should just barely move.

Pwg


Ah, ok. So I'm in the right area but a bit too much height on the jack? I'll pull the action tonight and go over this again. So I do want the hammer to drop slightly as I move the jack spoon?
Hi Matt. The jack on my piano is similar to the one in the video, it's an L-shaped piece. As I move the end of the L up and down, that causes the jack to move forward and back in the window. If jack is low, then the top of the jack never hits the knuckle, hence no hammer wink. In that case you'd adjust the rep lever button to lower the rep lever. As the rep lever lowers, the rep lever window descends onto the jack. Once it gets low enough, the jack protrudes a bit from the window. Since the knuckle rests on top of the rep lever window area, any protrusion of the jack top from the window will hit the knuckle, causing the hammer to rise a bit when you move the jack back and forth. The idea is to have the jack slightly higher than flush with the top of the window so there is minimal movement of the hammer when the jack is moved back and forth.

If adjusted right, the hammer will rise a little when the jack top hits the bottom of the knuckle then come back down, but it never goes down lower than it was.
Thank you for the clear explanation on how the jack is supposed to be regulated. My initial thinking was to adjust the let off button. Now that you explained it, it makes much more sense. I'll work on this later this evening to see if I can get this correct.
Okay, I'm back again looking for some assistance. I've spent most of the weekend working on the action and trying to get things perfect. I think I have things correct as far as the specs and settings. The only thing I'm really thinking is after touch could be a bit more perfect? If so, I would suspect I need to set hammer blow distance at 43-44mm and go from there? Please take look at the video and let me know what you guys are thinking.

A few notes:

1.) Key dip is at 10.25 mm
2.) Hammer blow distance is at 45mm
3.) Let off is at 2mm
4.) Drop is 'around' 2mm. This is much harder for me to measure correctly.

Matt,

Looks pretty good to me. Aftertouch is somewhat a matter of debate, but clearing the knuckle is an absolute, and not jamming against the cushion inside the rep lever is another absolute. Technically, anywhere in between can be considered "good". And in the final analysis judged by how the whole thing plays and feels to you the pianist.

Now if you want to play around with it to get the feel of "more" aftertouch vs "less" aftertouch, just raise the hammer line 2-3mm and play it. See what you think. This will give you more AT without having to mess with changing FR punchings. If you prefer that feel enough...change it at the FR. If not, go back to where you started. Or...compromise in between.

Personally, I would probably like what you have.

Pwg
Okay, that's great news! I'm glad things look close. I just went back through and re-checked drop and aftertouch on my table. I'm going to install the action back in the piano shortly and try to measure drop and correct as needed. It looks like drop should be around 4mm from the string.

After I am able to figure that out, I will try what mentioned to decrease or increase aftertouch. This almost seems crazy as I'm almost done....woohoo! This is one of those projects that I never thought would end.
Matt,
I'm not sure if you did this or not, but let-off has to be a little wider in the bass and low tenor. Let-off has to occur outside the the vibrating band of the string or unwanted noises will occur.
I did do that, as it was previously recommended. I initially set the bass at 2mm then backed the jack button off around 1/3 of a turn.

Some good news; I did play the piano some last night and wow, what a difference!!! I'm absolutely astounded at how different it is now! You can play soooo soft now! It's absolutely shocking at the level of control now. Hands down a completely different piano. Now I can focus on getting back into lessons soon and start learning.

Now some bad news. The hammers are obviously pretty bad and need to be replaced. The sound on some of the notes is almost like a toy music box. I'm hoping a tune can help some of that however I know that it's most likely because there is almost no felt on the hammer tips. Also, I have a few notes that are double playing with a very soft touch. I'll take a look at the repetition springs and double check let off.
You might as well try some voicing before you replace the hammers. Most people seem to be too conservative when it comes to needling hammers, having read that hammers can be ruined by too much needling. But if you are going to replace them anyway, perhaps they are hammers that are ruined by too little needling!
Originally Posted by BDB
You might as well try some voicing before you replace the hammers. Most people seem to be too conservative when it comes to needling hammers, having read that hammers can be ruined by too much needling. But if you are going to replace them anyway, perhaps they are hammers that are ruined by too little needling!


You're probably right about that. Since they are basically trash at this point, I suppose they couldn't be much worse! Does anyone know of any videos I could follow to give it a shot? As a disclaimer, I absolutely will be replacing the hammers/shanks when the funds permit. So for now, it's worth trying to help these old ones until then.
The best source of online instruction I've found is Jim Busby's Piano Technician Tutorials. Some videos are free on YouTube, but more are available if you buy his ebooks. The one on voicing does a great job of explaining how to voice and what tools to use, and also goes into string mating which must be right before voicing. I also bought his book on dampers, as regulating those was a complete mystery to me.
I just watched a few of his free videos on YouTube. This one is particularly interested to me, as I feel this when I play my piano very soft and slow. What he describes as 'shelf' I would describe as escapement or let off. All the same thing? Anyway, I'm going to have Noah from Piano Craft come out to my house soon to tune and inspect my amateur regulation work. It will be a few weeks before they can make it out though. I will report back the results once he spends a few hours on the piano.

Here is the video I described earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjW4hnjSeSY&t=336s

Thanks,
Matt
Wanted to see if I could potentially get some feedback or help. I've played the piano a few times this week to test things out. While I don't have much experience playing on a grand action, I feel like mine isn't perfect yet. One of the pieces I used to play is Beethoven Moonlight Sonata 1st movement. When playing the left hand chords soft / slow, I can feel the left off / escapement. This doesn't happen when playing the note/key every time. It seems to only happen when I play the key soft on very slow depress.

I double checked let off (a bit more than 2mm), checked that when moving the jack heel that the hammer barely moves and drop is around 4 mm.

Could it be possible that I need to move the jack a bit forward (towards the player)? I was also thinking it could be from the hammer blow distance being far from factory since the hammer felt has been shaved quite a bit and the knuckle leather was shaved down as well. I'm sure that changed the overall geometry. I do plan to purchase new hammers & shanks in the next few months. However, I would like to know if I have something a bit off in the regulation at this point.

Thanks for any help.
It's normal to be able to feel let off when you press the key slowly, whether you are on a grand or an upright. Try grabbing the front of the key top between your thumb and first finger and move the key all the way through its motion. As you depress the key, you will feel a tiny bit of lost motion (upright only) then you can feel the damper begin to lift, then you'll feel let off, and finally a little bit of aftertouch before the key bottoms out. If you do this slowly enough, the hammer will not even hit the strings. If you pull up on the key from its rest position, you'll get a little bit of motion before the key hits the key upstop rail (grand) or the nameboard felt (upright).

This all assumes the action is not too far out of regulation.
I would say that my action works as described in the above post. I slowly played the lower portion of the keyboard (A0 - G3) note by note. There are 4 keys that I labeled last night that don't play through as smoothly. While I did expect this seeing the level of work that I performed, I'm sure it's just a regulation step that needs a bit more attention on those keys. I'll pull the action out this weekend and take a look at those few keys that don't feel quite right.
Matt, I never notice letoff when I play soft passages. Could be you're more sensitive. Mechanically, I would think it has to do with the friction of the top of the jack against the bottom of the knuckle. Have you lubricated the knuckle? Rubbing PTFE powder onto the knuckles should smooth things out a lot.
I don't think that it's me. I play my other piano (antique Chickering) and don't feel it at all. The knuckles were treated with PTFE powder while I was re-assembling the action. I'm going to pull the action out in a few hours and inspect the few keys that I labeled. I have 4 that feel a bit different than the rest. I'll post my findings once I take a closer look.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Wanted to see if I could potentially get some feedback or help. I've played the piano a few times this week to test things out. While I don't have much experience playing on a grand action, I feel like mine isn't perfect yet. One of the pieces I used to play is Beethoven Moonlight Sonata 1st movement. When playing the left hand chords soft / slow, I can feel the left off / escapement. This doesn't happen when playing the note/key every time. It seems to only happen when I play the key soft on very slow depress.

I double checked let off (a bit more than 2mm), checked that when moving the jack heel that the hammer barely moves and drop is around 4 mm.

Could it be possible that I need to move the jack a bit forward (towards the player)? I was also thinking it could be from the hammer blow distance being far from factory since the hammer felt has been shaved quite a bit and the knuckle leather was shaved down as well. I'm sure that changed the overall geometry. I do plan to purchase new hammers & shanks in the next few months. However, I would like to know if I have something a bit off in the regulation at this point.

Thanks for any help.


I seem to remember that you sanded your knuckles to get rid of the groove/flat worn in by the jack tops.

It seems to me that sanding out the grooves in the knuckles would necessarily flatten the contact surface of the knuckle somewhat, resulting in a change from a perfectly round arc/path for the jack-to-knuckle contact point to a path more like a right angle. Even though the wear you corrected would have already done this somewhat, the sanding may have increased the loss of material from the knuckle surface. It seems like modifying the original contact point arc to a more flat-to-angle configuration could translate to a different feel during the keystroke. The initial part of the keystroke, where the jack top is traveling across the new flat, would be characterized by resistance. And this followed by a more sudden, letoff when the jack reaches the end of its new path. This might feel substantially different than the original, gradual movement of the contact point around the perfect arc of the original knuckle shape.

Perhaps, if your knuckles look noticeably flat from the sanding, you could exchange the wippen assembly with one from the end of the keyboard where sanding was likely a lot less (and the knuckle therefore, is much rounder, as original) and see if that does anything to restore the feel.
The knuckles are absolutely worn and need to be replaced. The hammers as well have surpassed their service life. At this point, my hope/goal was to get the piano to a point where it's far more playable than it was. With that said, I would say without a doubt that I have far exceeded my own expectations. The piano plays worlds better than it did when I purchased it.

So, at this point, I want to make sure that everything is as good as it will be until I can purchased and install new hammers & shanks. The noise is completely gone from the action which was pretty bad before. You could hear the mechanical aspect of the action over normal playing. Now the action is near dead silent and very smooth, aside from the few keys that have this odd let-off feeling, which very well may be the knuckles.

I have an appointment on March 23rd with Piano Craft to spend a few hours on the piano. I'm sure their tech will be able to put some solid work in and give me some feedback on how bad or good I did with the action reconditioning.
This post will most likely be one of the final ones in this thread. What a time it has been learning so much! First and foremost I would like to say THANK YOU(!!) to everyone that has helped me with this project. It has proven to be much more work than I initially thought. However, with the right DIY mindset and professionals to help along the way, anything is possible. So again, thank you!

Now to the update. Noah from Piano Craft came out for our scheduled appointment yesterday (March 23rd). When the appointment was set, we discussed that I would like a few hours of his time and if we make it to a tune, that would be good, however not necessary.

Noah arrived a few minutes early and we discussed the goals for the day. Noah is the tech who repaired my flange bushing so he was a bit aware of what was going on. Upon inspecting the action in the piano and measuring all of the critical items, I was pleased to hear that I did a really good job, especially for my first action. There were a few issues I left in place before the appointment as I didn't know what do. There were a few notes that were double striking and a few that felt clunky.

The first thing he noticed was I went a bit too tight on the key pin holes in the bottom of the keys. He eased most of the keys while showing me in great detail how it should be done. After that he pointed out the while I did work the knuckles, there were shot, which I knew. He bolstered one of them as a test and that particular key does play a bit smoother. He also pointed out the clunky feeling I feel in a few of the keys is absolutely the worn knuckles and no bit of regulation will make that feel right. Hands down it needs hammers and knuckles, again, which I knew.

The other thing he point out was I had a bit too much aftertouch on a majority of the piano. How he explained how you measure it made so much more sense than to just measure key dip. We measured around .070-.080 on a few test/sample keys. At which point he showed me how to properly set and check aftertouch along with key dip. The aftertouch being too much on a few keys was causing the hammer to rise too high after letoff, causing a double strike. That was resolved on the key where he showed me how to check and properly set aftertouch.

The last few things he mentioned was that letoff was perfect, drop was right and overall, everything looked really good.

So now I have a few items to set. Aftertouch will be set and done today. He advised that I soften up a few of the repetition springs as they were a bit too spirited. In the near future I will be purchasing new Yamaha shanks & hammers. I'm going to install them then have Noah come back for another appointment to voice the new hammers and tune the piano.

Thank again for all of your help!!
Matt
👍👍

Pwg
Matt, thanks for sharing your ongoing learning process. It has been incredibly valuable to me (and others, I assume).


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