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Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins

Posted By: HollowRiku

Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/16/18 05:05 PM

Hi! I'm from Spain, so sorry if my English is not perfect~

I bought a Kawai GL 10 piano back in 2016, two and a half years ago. They piano has been played almost everyday and tuned frequently but very gently. A few days ago one of the piano pins completely broke in two halves while I was tuning a key, I had no idea that could happen and I've never been violent while tuning, I'm always very careful.

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A professional piano technician has been trying to replace that pin with a new one, in the process he's checked the nearby pins and has noticed all of them are bent, have very noticiable marks on the places where the strings were attached, and the small hole where the string is attached is becoming bigger and bigger, the metal is deforming! That's the place where the pin started to break, the string went inside it through the hole and totally broke it as if the pin was made of butter.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
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I have no idea if this is related to the fact it's made in Indonesia, if it's something that affects all the GL models or if I was just unlucky and got a defective one. The technician said he's never seen something this bad before, my piano is now cursed and he has recommended I should get rid of it and get a new one, since repairing every pin in the piano wouldn't be worth it smirk

I was wondering if anyone has heard any experience like this, I haven't been able to find anything~ I'm pretty worried about it, any suggestions / tips are welcome, thanks for reading!
Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/16/18 05:10 PM

Did you buy it new?
If not how old was it and did you have a technician check it before buying?
Posted By: MarkL

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/16/18 05:12 PM

I have the same piano, I just took a look at all the tuning pins and don't see any pattern of wear like that. Mine is newer and has only had two tunings.
It's under warranty, have you contacted the dealer where you purchased it?
Posted By: Emery Wang

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/16/18 09:20 PM

Should have 10 year warranty, I'd try calling dealer as Mark suggests. Not sure if dealer is supposed to service, or if Kawai takes responsibility directly, but this definitely sounds like a warranty item.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/16/18 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by HollowRiku
Hi! I'm from Spain, so sorry if my English is not perfect~

I bought a Kawai GL 10 piano back in 2016, two and a half years ago. They piano has been played almost everyday and tuned frequently but very gently. A few days ago one of the piano pins completely broke in two halves while I was tuning a key, I had no idea that could happen and I've never been violent while tuning, I'm always very careful...


Have indeed heard of people breaking the pins when tuning, because they were bending them instead of turning them without understanding the importance of proper tuning method.
I have not ever heard of Kawai having this problem with tuning pins...
How often are you tuning the instrument (you say frequently)?
I am not saying you are responsible, but it is entirely possible that an improper tuning method has been employed and has ruined these pins. In fact, if all are this way-- it is highly possible, since I can definitely tell from the last image that your tuning pins are being destroyed- they are all chewed up by whatever tuning hammer head type/size has been employed for the job.
No way should tuning pins look that chewed up after only 2 years of tuning.
Also, those wear marks at the hole look like- bottom of hole is worn downward (from pulling back on the pin, instead of turning), and top left of pin is worn from another maneuver with the hammer that is not good...

I am not trying to accuse you or saying you did this, this is all just my observation of what I am seeing in the pics...

Perhaps for some reason Kawai has goofed? It does happen...
One piano manufacturer in more recent history has had problems due to the metal they used for their piano action frames-- cheap metal that expands with climate change (not global warming/cooling/whatever-people-now-say type)... This has caused many a headache for them as a company... So mfg's do make mistakes.
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 12:15 AM

I would deal with the dealer, or the distributor for your part of the world.
Posted By: HollowRiku

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hakki
Did you buy it new?
If not how old was it and did you have a technician check it before buying?


Yep it was totally new! Supposedly it was checked before being sent, I bought it from Thomann

Originally Posted by MarkL
I have the same piano, I just took a look at all the tuning pins and don't see any pattern of wear like that. Mine is newer and has only had two tunings.
It's under warranty, have you contacted the dealer where you purchased it?


Oh I see frown I've recently sent an e-mail to Kawai Spain and Thomann, where I bought it, let'see what they can do for me!

Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Should have 10 year warranty, I'd try calling dealer as Mark suggests. Not sure if dealer is supposed to service, or if Kawai takes responsibility directly, but this definitely sounds like a warranty item.


I've contacted both via e-mail, I'm just afraid they're just going to ignore me or not believe me frown I'll let you know what they say!

Originally Posted by Rick_Parks
I am not saying you are responsible, but it is possible a wrong tuning method has been employed and has ruined these pins. In fact, if all are this way-- it is highly possible, since I can definitely tell from the last image that your tuning pins are being destroyed- they are all chewed up by whatever tuning hammer head type/size has been employed for the job. No way should tuning pins look that chewed up after only 2 years of tuning.


I admit I used to use a very average lever, but I got a professional one a few months ago (both with the standard hammer size). I explained that to the piano technician but he said a cheap lever shouldn't be able to cause that (I guess the chewing up part is indeed because of it, I also noticed that). He also said those pins were incredibly tight, the tightest he's ever seen, and that he doesn't want to tune my piano cause he knows he'll break them. He feels the materials are super cheap and doesn't feel like a Kawai model at all, even if it has its name ;_;

I've always tried to turn the pin delicately instead of bending it, maybe they were so tight that they were being bent in the process? Could the strings mark be caused by a bad tuning method too? He's shown me +20 years tuning pins that were used for many tests while restoring pianos and that belonged to pianos tuned tons of times by many different tuners and they were perfectly straight with 0 marks, I'm not sure and I might be partially responsible, but I feel there's something wrong about these pins, like they are super easily deformable frown
Posted By: michaelopolis

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 01:24 AM

If the pins are crazy tight it may be a combination of things that has caused the problem .
A few questions
Would you have a pic of your "very average lever" and maybe a pic of the inside of its tip ? where did you get the lever from ? was the lever tip the right size for the pins ?
Not blaming you just trying to figure this out.

Also maybe a sideways pic of your lever tip sitting on a tuning pin would be helpful.
Posted By: kpembrook

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 02:11 AM

There are actually fake tools being sold. They are the $15-on-eBay kind of thing. They look like the real thing but in actual fact do not work. I have had a number of people report their experiences to me when they came my direction to buy a real tuning lever instead of a fake one. Some of them don't even grip the pin. Given the amount the pins are chewed up, you may have ruined a set of pins from being tunable with a legitimate tuning lever.

But that's not why they are breaking...

Tuning pins will normally break in the fashion of your photo when torque reaches around 300 inch/pounds (dunno what that is in newton/meters). I've done it when experimenting with tuning pin torque in various pinblocks. I think it happened once in an actual restringing job where the pins were too tight. Now, it may be that tuning pins from different manufacturers will have different levels of torque failure. But given that really tight-but-tunable pins would be around $150 inch/lbs, no pin should break if the assembly were done properly.

Also, the elongation of the becket hole is weird. I don't even know how that can be done in anything like normal stringing procedure. (Maybe stringing machine setup improperly?!?) Anyway...

This is clearly a warranty issue. Even if the piano was worked on by incompetent people using sub-standard "tools" , the tuning pin failure shown in your photos is not something that can be caused by any kind of post-delivery situation or service. (Well, I suppose if one applied CA to already tight tuning pins, maybe...) Bottom line: your dealer and manufacturer need to make good to you on what should have been a good quality and thoroughly satisfactory piano.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 02:12 AM

Extremely tight tuning pins is common on many new pianos...Sometimes they need to be worked back and forth, in order to "break them free" (not the sort of break that you've got there LOL- sorry)... There have been recent threads on the topic of tight tuning pins that you may refer to.
If the pins are super tight, and you are not aware of what you are doing, and you have a wrong size tuning hammer tip (the kind that make the tip sit on top of the pin instead of seating properly over it), you will indeed be in for a bad end.

Again, could be cheaper tuning pins...But, generally piano mfg's don't make their own tuning pins these days- they tend to be a more general supply for many different mfg's. I mean it is not like we are looking at Kawai hiring someone to make their tuning pins in Indonesia out of cheap Chinese steal, or something like that smile That does not happen.

I am afraid that this does strike me as a mistake on the part of the person responsible for tunings. That would be my guess at least.

Still, you might as well try Kawai service department, but don't be surprised if they have questions like these for you. They are not likely to just say bring it back when they hear the problem.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by kpembrook
But that's not why they are breaking...
Tuning pins will normally break in the fashion of your photo when torque reaches around 300 inch/pounds (dunno what that is in newton/meters). I've done it when experimenting with tuning pin torque in various pinblocks. I think it happened once in an actual restringing job where the pins were too tight. Now, it may be that tuning pins from different manufacturers will have different levels of torque failure. But given that really tight-but-tunable pins would be around $150 inch/lbs, no pin should break if the assembly were done properly.

Also, the elongation of the becket hole is weird. I don't even know how that can be done in anything like normal stringing procedure. (Maybe stringing machine setup improperly?!?) Anyway...

This is clearly a warranty issue. Even if the piano was worked on by incompetent people using sub-standard "tools" , this is not something that can be caused by any kind of post-delivery situation or service. (Well, I suppose if one applied CA to already tight tuning pins, maybe...) Bottom line: your dealer and manufacturer need to make good to you on what should have been a good quality and thoroughly satisfactory piano.


I respectfully disagree with this assessment, as repeated bending back and forth ("The piano has been played almost everyday and tuned frequently...")... Again, how frequent are these pins being moved? If pins are "extremely tight', and not turning but rather bending every time (as is evident by the tip damage on the pins), then constant stress would cause metal fatigue:
Quote
Fatigue
Material
In materials science, fatigue is the weakening of a material caused by repeatedly applied loads. It is the progressive and localized structural damage that occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading. The nominal maximum stress values that cause such damage may be much less than the strength of the material typically quoted as the ultimate tensile stress limit, or the yield stress limit.

I.E. - the pins are normally NOT supposed to break because of their strength... But, will if bent back and forth repeatedly for almost 2 years.
Posted By: kpembrook

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 03:06 AM

Quote
If the pins are super tight, and you are not aware of what you are doing, and you have a wrong size tuning hammer tip (the kind that make the tip sit on top of the pin instead of seating properly over it), you will indeed be in for a bad end.

Again, could be cheaper tuning pins...But, generally piano mfg's don't make their own tuning pins these days- they tend to be a more general supply for many different mfg's. I mean it is not like we are looking at Kawai hiring someone to make their tuning pins in Indonesia out of cheap Chinese steal, or something like that smile That does not happen.


Again, tuning pins have a breaking strength just as music wire does. When music wire exceeds its breaking point, it will break. Doesn't matter if you jerk or pull gently or even talk nice to it. It will break.

Same with tuning pins. If the force required to move the pin exceeds ~300 inch/lbs the pin will break. Doesn't matter how skillful or qualified the technician is who is turning the tuning pin. If this situation prevails in a piano it can only be factory responsibility -- whether in QC of tuning pin strength or humidity management or pinblock construction or whatever. The only conceivable exception would be sabotage -- as I mentioned earlier if someone applied CA to already tight pins.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by kpembrook
Quote
If the pins are super tight, and you are not aware of what you are doing, and you have a wrong size tuning hammer tip (the kind that make the tip sit on top of the pin instead of seating properly over it), you will indeed be in for a bad end.

Again, could be cheaper tuning pins...But, generally piano mfg's don't make their own tuning pins these days- they tend to be a more general supply for many different mfg's. I mean it is not like we are looking at Kawai hiring someone to make their tuning pins in Indonesia out of cheap Chinese steal, or something like that smile That does not happen.


Again, tuning pins have a breaking strength just as music wire does. When music wire exceeds its breaking point, it will break. Doesn't matter if you jerk or pull gently or even talk nice to it. It will break.

Same with tuning pins. If the force required to move the pin exceeds ~300 inch/lbs the pin will break. Doesn't matter how skillful or qualified the technician is who is turning the tuning pin. If this situation prevails in a piano it can only be factory responsibility -- whether in QC of tuning pin strength or humidity management or pinblock construction or whatever. The only conceivable exception would be sabotage -- as I mentioned earlier if someone applied CA to already tight pins.


If I bend a tuning pin back and forth continually for a long period of time it is going to break. Period. It is called metal fatigue. It has nothing to do with what torque the pin would NORMALLY break at. It is just like that silly little paper-clip thingy on a manila envelope... Normally they work, but when I bend it back and forth back and forth back and forth--- snap. It happens in all metals. And it is not related at all to the normal breaking strength-- tensile strength.
Take your piano string-- after talking nice to it smile - and bend it back and forth many times, then try to tune it to its normal tension. It's going to break before your stated breaking point. The string is weakened by the bending (metal fatigue). It is an obvious factor to consider here.
Posted By: Ralphiano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 08:21 PM

I am not a piano technician.

However, I wonder about those dark rings around the pin, visible in the OP's 3rd and 4th photos (from top to bottom). The similarity of their spacing to the thickness of pinblock laminations suggests that those lines correspond to either the layers of wood, or the layers of glue/adhesive in the pinblock.

And, to me, those dark rings look like burnt material. I have seen YouTube videos of "technicians" turning tuning pins with a power drill (for installation, if I remember correctly).

So, I have to wonder whether OP's pins were either installed by a high speed power tool, or, whether someone along the way has turned the pins at speeds sufficient to generate excessive heat, thereby causing the burning, and maybe even some metal fatigue in the pins.

To our experienced techs: Are those black, charred rings, normal?
Posted By: Ralphiano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 08:46 PM

I also note from OP's second photo that there is a lot of metal debris around the broken pin. I find the following observations curious:

1. In my experience, every episode of a metal bolt, shank, or pin breaking from being subjected to torque that exceeds the device's strength, has NEVER been accompanied by a debris field of small particles breaking off at the same time and then spreading around the area. They always break into two, or three at most, pieces.

2. The particles making up the debris field are not sharp edged, slivers that one would expect from tearing metal. They appear to be small arbitrarily shaped pieces, almost as if the metal had already lost much of its molecular bond, crystalizing perhaps, before the final torque incident.

3. The spread of the debris field is not what I would expect from just a tuning pin breaking under excess torque. Some of the debris is as far away as the adjacent pins, many pieces resting atop the wire coils on those pins. How odd that seems. Did the particles somehow become magnetized, explaining how they might have come to be perched in such an unusual position? The debris sitting on the plate tapers off before those neighboring pins. So, how did some parts of the debris have enough energy to travel beyond the end of the debris field and strike the adjoinging pins, and then, instead of rebounding from them, stay, and become perched on the very narrow top of those pins' coils?

4. The two main pieces of the pin do not show any sharp edges as usually appear when a healthy metal shaft is separated into two pieces by excessive torque. There is usually that one sharp point/edge, which is the final bit of metal to tear before the separation is completed. I am referring to the little point that looks somewhat like the very top of a soft serve ice cream cone. I do not see any of that here.

I am suspecting that this pin has been subjected to high heat, and its metal composition had been seriously compromised before breaking. What sayeth the rest of you detectives?
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/17/18 09:54 PM

I'd like to see more pictures including showing the model and serial number. Is it truly a Kawaii?
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 12:12 AM

Why am I seeing what looks like corrosion or other crud on the wires and around the tuning pins? If this is a two year old piano, that's a lot of oxidation. However maybe it's something else?

I am also seeing rings of rust on the threads of the tuning pin that would seem to correspond with the layers of pinblock internally. I have only that in really high humidity situations over a long period of time.


Pwg
Posted By: MarkL

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Why am I seeing what looks like corrosion or other crud on the wires and around the tuning pins? If this is a two year old piano, that's a lot of oxidation. However maybe it's something else?
Pwg

I thought that might be the nickel (chrome?) plating that is flaking off all the tuning pins in the photo. If there were a photo that showed the full length of the pinblock, I'm guessing those flakes will be everywhere.
Posted By: MarkL

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 01:11 AM

I took a photo of my tuning pins to compare with the OP, looks like the construction is the same even though mine is 2 years newer.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
I also note from OP's second photo that there is a lot of metal debris around the broken pin. I find the following observations curious.........


The debris you are seeing-- I noted when I first looked it over... It is metal debris (or chrome chippings, as MarkL suggests), from his/her chewing up the pins when tuning (I am almost 100% positive). The pins are chewed up by the tuning hammer, and as it happens the metal dust and frag's fall to the coil.
As for installation- Kawai is using the usual methods. You appear set to blame the manufacturer (I address this below)...

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Why am I seeing what looks like corrosion or other crud on the wires and around the tuning pins? If this is a two year old piano, that's a lot of oxidation. However maybe it's something else?

I am also seeing rings of rust on the threads of the tuning pin that would seem to correspond with the layers of pinblock internally. I have only that in really high humidity situations over a long period of time.
Pwg

Saw that too and questioned it, Peter. Has anyone confirmed that this was indeed purchased as a NEW instrument yet?


NOW-
We have established these facts:

1 The person tuned it themselves (not being educated as to how to do this)...

2 The pins are VERY Tight...

3 When the Professional tuner-tech was finally called for, he refused to tune the instrument when he saw that ALL THE PINS ARE BENT...

4 The pins show themselves to be extremely chewed up around the edges (only capable by tuning lever)...

5 The owner confesses to having tuned for 1.5 years?("I admit I used to use a very average lever, but I got a professional one a few months ago (both with the standard hammer size"), all this time with a cheap lever before changing over (hence the pins condition).

6) The break in the pin shows a metal that appears to have twists formed in it's material (if you examine the close up of the pin)... This would be from continued twisting of the metal above, while the pin is not moving below... Understanding the method that we use to tune might help one understand this point. A tuning pin must be broken free from any resistance, in order to TURN the pin. If this force is not overcome, all that will be accomplished is twisting/bending/anything-but-turning. The pitch will indeed change, for a short while, and then fall back out of tune as the pin tries to return to its normal state (hence my diagnosis of Metal Fatigue). It would be very interesting to know HOW OFTEN she/he found it necessary to "tune" or "adjust" the instrument (this could be very telling).

With all of these facts (fact #6 is the only iffy one as a "fact"), I think it is only reasonable to suggest (at the least) that it might not be manufacturing that is to blame here.
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 05:36 AM

this is a very soft metal of a pin that has no standard quality forging treatment (tempering). most often, Chinese manufacturers make similar products. I'm afraid that with subsequent tuning it's a problem must repeat. Returning yours piano to the dealer and let's must he retunrn your conpencacion
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 09:47 AM

I tuned a Yamaha grand for a lady a while ago. She is a perhaps unusual person, and had more or less single-handedly restored a remote cottage to live in.

She had bought for herself a tuning lever online of a type that I have seen on Ebay/Amazon. In the online photos it looks quite smart. She said she had found it wasn't a good fit, and out of interest I tried it on a pin. Boy was she right. I didn't even attempt to turn the pin with it; the fit just felt so awful. Quite weird - not simply loose and waggly, as with a too-large tip, but as if the internal shape of the tip was different from that of the tuning pins.

I don't know what the repeated use of such a lever would do to tuning pins.
Posted By: HollowRiku

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 01:32 PM

Thanks for the replies guys! I've been tuning it once every 4-5 months or so, here you are some more pics:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

(Model name, there is some dirt since the technician has been trying to remove the pin with no success, he's coming back today):

[Linked Image]

Serial number:

[Linked Image]

Old lever and newer lever:

[Linked Image]

Broken pin again:

[Linked Image]

I record piano covers in Youtube, you can listen to it here in case you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/hollowriku
Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 02:52 PM

Your videos are very nice.
Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: MarkL

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 04:47 PM

I enjoyed listening to your videos. Sorry this is happening to your beautiful piano. What is the humidity like in your part of Spain?
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 07:03 PM

Those do not look like grand tuning hammer tips.

Edit: Meaning, a grand tip should be much longer than those... How do you get clearance in order to turn the hammer?
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 08:32 PM

I have never seen such a mangulated pin in all the time I've been in this business. Incredible!

Pwg
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rick_Parks
Those do not look like grand tuning hammer tips.

Edit: Meaning, a grand tip should be much longer than those... How do you get clearance in order to turn the hammer?


There is nothing wrong with either of those tips. Clearance is a combination of length and angle, and those hammers have a decent combination.
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 09:09 PM

How in the world can anyone create such deep gouges in the sides if the pin? It looks like a jackhammer was used.

Pwg
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by Rick_Parks
Those do not look like grand tuning hammer tips.

Edit: Meaning, a grand tip should be much longer than those... How do you get clearance in order to turn the hammer?


There is nothing wrong with either of those tips. Clearance is a combination of length and angle, and those hammers have a decent combination.


That hammer on the right-- how with almost a perfect 90-degree short tip do you plan to properly tune a grand piano? The destroyed tuning pins are proof of my point! smile

The fracture up the side, the metal that looks twisted inside, the completely destroyed edges of the pin (any one still wonder where all that "debris" field came from?)-- it all points to someone basically destroying those pins. NOT the manufacturer!
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by P W Grey
How in the world can anyone create such deep gouges in the sides if the pin? It looks like a jackhammer was used.

Pwg


A tip that is either too small and grinds it round, or a tip that is too large and same results.
My guess is, since it goes down the entire length of the pin, that this was too wide a tip and the pins became ground-round in very short order!

Does anyone wonder why the tech, when he saw this, was flabbergasted? I think he politely bowed out as easy as he could on the client.

EDIT:
Anyone up to telling me right now that Kawai is putting cheap tuning pins in their piano?
Better back it up with something more than this thread!
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 10:45 PM

Both the tuning levers shown look to me like Chinese copies that can be bought on ebay.

The one on the right looks like a Fujan, but I think its one of the ripoff copies. I recently wrote to Steven Fujan about them.

I think it's unlikely that these would be fitted with the very high quality Jahn tips that Steve Fujan supplies for his levers. Poorly-made tips would fit badly, possibly chew the pins, and make it seem as if they are harder to tune than is really the case.

I enjoyed the music!
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 11:09 PM

The Fujan hammer, the one on the right, is favored by many people on this forum. I have tried it and it works, but it is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/18/18 11:34 PM

BDB what you see on the right is NOT, I believe, a Fujan lever.

It is a Chinese-made ripoff COPY of a Fujan. (Not the Schaff carbon fiber lever either). https://www.ebay.com/itm/Piano-tuning-maintenance-tools-Tuning-hammer-carbon-fiber-wrench/273594963565?hash=item3fb387d66d:g:flwAAOSwD4layhQA:rk:1:pf:0


I emailed Steve Fujan about this some weeks ago, with the link. Steve's levers have the Fujan name on the head. I have been using mine for a decade now (it was the first in Scotland, I think).

China is not strong on respecting intellectual property rights.
Posted By: Chernobieff Piano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 01:11 AM

I enjoyed the playing and the piece, but that piano ugh! In light of the tuning pin problem i'd return the piano and upgrade to a nicer piano to match your skill.
Maybe a Baldwin R or an L.
Although i have never seen it, it looks like the tuning pins are not hardened properly. The break on that Kawaii is horrible, the string/ hammer mating is poor, and the hammers need voicing. All of the things a dealer often neglects.
-Kind Regards
Chris
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by BDB
The Fujan hammer, the one on the right, is favored by many people on this forum. I have tried it and it works, but it is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.


I understand what type of hammer it claims to be... This does not change the fact that the tip is too short, and the angle is too close to 90-degrees for a Grand to be tuned properly.
I would think that it would be knuckle busting to try to use the setup shown on the right.

Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
......Although i have never seen it, it looks like the tuning pins are not hardened properly...

Chris, are you telling me that Kawai somehow, on this ONE piano, has fouled up the tuning pins (where would they have gotten this one set of faulty pins)?...
People, really- these pianos are not made by hand and one a year. They are mass produced. Meaning, IF the pins were faulty on this one, we would ALL know by now, since this would be showing up elsewhere!
As Peter said, he has never seen anything like this in all his time--- and I guess many of us are in agreement with that...As Chernobieff says here, "although I have never seen it, it looks like..."
I do not understand how the techs in here can even think to try writing this one off to a warranty issue, as if Kawai was responsible for poor quality control on this instrument in manufacturing.

The manufactures always chip the piano up in pitch, and many tune it...It then goes through quality control inspection. It then goes to showroom where a tech is going to go over it and tune it.
Where in this were these pins shredded?
Did they shred themselves?
Did they bend themselves?
Let us ask the poster if the pins looked nice and shiny when he got the piano--- he should know. I doubt he would have bought it with chewed up pins, and a metal shaving dust debris field!

MarkL showed us his Kawai- same make-- pins look great... Has he had any issue with tuners about it?
Have any of us been notified of problems from our customers?
Come on! You know what has happened here, and it ain't on Kawai!

Chris-- exactly how does it look to you that the tuning pin was not hardened properly- because it is broken? Can you please point out specifically what shows itself to you that it was not properly hardened?

Again (and this is my last time I'm saying it, cause it doesn't seem to be doing any good)-- I call this one against the customer... He has shredded, twisted, and bent ALL the pins- resulting in metal fatigue and failure of tuning pins. That's what all the evidence points toward at this point.
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 02:51 AM

Well, you are not the one to call it. It is up to whoever warranties the piano.

If the customer is much less than 200 pounds of solid muscle, I doubt he is responsible for that much damage. I have never seen a tuning pin broken like that, and cannot imagine the circumstances that would cause that.
Posted By: Chernobieff Piano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 03:27 AM

I was waying back and forth regarding metal fatigue and amateur tuning technique. Could be a little of both. But what makes me lean towards metal fatigue was the pin holes. Only with a non hardened metal could a hole warp like that i would think.
-chris
Posted By: Ralphiano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by Rick_Parks
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
I also note from OP's second photo that there is a lot of metal debris around the broken pin. I find the following observations curious.........


The debris you are seeing-- I noted when I first looked it over... It is metal debris (or chrome chippings, as MarkL suggests), from his/her chewing up the pins when tuning (I am almost 100% positive). The pins are chewed up by the tuning hammer, and as it happens the metal dust and frag's fall to the coil.


I think I agree with this. I looked at the pictures again and noticed that the greater the damage to any particular pin, the greater the amount of debris resting on that pin's wire coil. This suggests, as you noted, that the debris is from the chewing of the pins tops.


Originally Posted by Rick_Parks
As for installation- Kawai is using the usual methods. You appear set to blame the manufacturer (I address this below)...


I am not sure what I said that would cause me to be seen as set to blame the manufacturer. My two posts were focused on things I observed that had not yet been discussed in this thread as of the time I posted. I was sincere in seeking the input and comment of the many veteran technicians here on the two questions (high speed pin turning, and, the dark rings) I raised. I had no other intent.

I am still not satisfied that we know all the influences that contributed to the pin failure. For me, most of my doubt centers on whether or not the pin was subjected to high heat at some point. My experiences tell me that subjecting metal to high heat can weaken it. And, those, as yet, unexplained rings on the threaded portion of the pin, upon second look, also suggest high temperatures. The dark rings do not appear, to me, to be rust. If they were rust, the threads would still be visible; the threads would just be rusty, but still in the form of threads. In OP's pictures, the threads are not visible in the area of the dark rings. Rather, the dark rings appear to be coating the threaded shank, and the coating is thick enough to completely conceal the threads. It appears that there is something caked on top of the threads. The only candidate that comes to mind is the glue used between the wood layers in the pinblock.

Also, those caked on rings are about 5-6 threads in depth. The glue layer in the laminated pinblock would not be the thickness of 5-6 threads. Rather, it might be the thickness of one thread, at most, and probably just a fraction of one thread. If this was merely a case of some of the glue sticking to or miscoloring the pin due to its natural adhesive qualities, I would expect the dark ring to be only the same depth as the depth of the glue layer, approximately one thread deep.

To me, the appearance of glue smeared over a wide range of 5--6 threads raises the possibility that the pins were turned at too high speed and for too many revolutions, such that the glue in the pinblock was melted, and then smeared over 5-6 threads as those threads passed through the melted glue strata for 5-6 revolutions. So, I still wonder if the pins had been turned with help of some high speed machine(drill or otherwise), and/or for several continuous revolutions.

The application of a drill might also explain some of the extensive damage to the pin tops.

To the OP, did you ever turn the pins in a continuous manner for one or more revolutions without stopping? Or, turn them at high speeds? With the aid of any power equipment?

I hope no one abandons this inquiry. I think there is still much to solve, and I think there is much to learn from this episode.
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 04:24 AM

I think it was a bad batch of tuning pins.
Posted By: ando

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by BDB
I think it was a bad batch of tuning pins.

I agree. The internal structure of that pin metal doesn't look right at all. It doesn't have the appearance of quality high tensile steel. It has a crumbling appearance of poor cast iron. Maybe too much carbon in the matrix.
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB
I think it was a bad batch of tuning pins.

I agree. The internal structure of that pin metal doesn't look right at all. It doesn't have the appearance of quality high tensile steel. It has a crumbling appearance of poor cast iron. Maybe too much carbon in the matrix.

looks like sulimin
Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 09:41 AM


https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/

From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.
Posted By: gwing

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hakki

https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/
From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.


Clearly pins must be able to withstand rather more than half a dozen tunings to be fit for purpose but I wonder about the tuning methodology. Turning a pin normally should in no way exert stresses on the pin that approach the strength limits of the pin or again the design is not fit for purpose yet were normal forces exerted? If you lean down heavily on the hammer rather than just applying rotational force the pin bends and friction in the pin block increases, if you really go for it can you actually break a decent quality pin like that?
Posted By: Maximillyan

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hakki

https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/

From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.






I'm think that you are wrong. A pin (it's body) works only in the zone of elastic deformations. The plastic deformation of a pin if it's there must to destruction it's. By the way, a broken pin is the result of plastic deformation here
Posted By: Chernobieff Piano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 02:33 PM

The assumption was "High Strength Steel". I question the metallurgy of this batch of pins because all the bad tuning technique in the world is not going to distort the holes like that shown in the picture.
-chris
Posted By: N W

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 02:43 PM

Have to say I always prefer blue pins.... I've always thought chrome pins display more twist. I get a better tuning on blue.
Nick
Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 02:49 PM

I suspect a Japanese firm like Kawai would use tuning pins that would not satisfy their specs.
It is unlikely that tuning pins that is lower quality then their set specs pass the quality control checks and make their way to final assembly.
Posted By: KawaiDon

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 04:37 PM

I have contacted our international office in Japan about this piano. It is very bad that the owner has complicated the situation by damaging many tuning pins. Of course the tuning pins should not be this tight or have those brown stripes on them. Something is very strange about this piano.

If a tuning pin breaks it is normally at the becket hole - this is the weakest point. But as others have said, it's not very common. I've seen it before, usually caused by extremely tight pin fit combined with excessive bending motion with the tuning lever.

Tuning pins are not hardened or heat treated. They are a hard steel - but music wire is harder, and can leave marks on the pins. If the tuning pins are made to be as hard as the strings, then the strings will tend to break at the becket. So it is normal for the tuning pins to have a SLIGHT amount of rounding of the becket hole. The situation here is extreme - and like a few others here in the forum it does seem clear that the combination of very tight fitting pins, a very bad tuning lever, and mishandling of the tuning process by an inexperienced hand is contributing to the damage.

The owner should definitely be in touch with the dealer who sold the piano, and see what they can do. But again, warranty coverage is complicated by the damage done by the owner.
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 05:05 PM

Don,

Is it conceivable that the warranty could end up being voided under the "abuse or neglect" clause? Not that I am advising it...just asking.

Pwg
Posted By: Jitin

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 05:40 PM

Lets say, one does not have warranty, is pin damage like that, not repairable?
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 07:08 PM

One would need to repin at the very least...preferably restring completely.

Pwg
Posted By: Jitin

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by P W Grey
One would need to repin at the very least...preferably restring completely.

Pwg


I guess what i am asking is, if it is even possible to fix it, and at reasonable costs, since the OP, made it seem like it is end of that piano.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 11:01 PM

Was away all day... Few points I wanted to touch on:

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
[quote=Rick_Parks]I am not sure what I said that would cause me to be seen as set to blame the manufacturer. My two posts were focused on things I observed that had not yet been discussed in this thread as of the time I posted. I was sincere in seeking the input and comment of the many veteran technicians here on the two questions (high speed pin turning, and, the dark rings) I raised. I had no other intent.

I am still not satisfied that we know all the influences that contributed to the pin failure. For me, most of my doubt centers on whether or not the pin was subjected to high heat at some point. My experiences tell me that subjecting metal to high heat can weaken it......


I didn't mean you had a hidden motive or anything like that... I simply was meaning that with the Post Title itself and the comments around it, it is suggestive:
Title- "HUGE problem with the tuning pins" (not the tuner)
Then all of the suggestive comments such as, "high speed installation burning the pins", and words that we have seen from others- that this was most certainly "a warranty issue", "return it and get another", "bad batch of tuning pins" etc. etc. Just read the thread...
All of these comments are suggesting that Kawai should be considered to be under warranty obligation for something that, at least ONE of us (*clears throat importantly), was stressing was definitely (in this case) the owner's doing.

And I make the point again- Tight Pins have nothing to do with this situation.
Many of us face tight pins every day in new pianos.
This is a normal feature on many NEW pianos these days. In fact, there is another thread running on here, in which the techs are discussing the normality of this very issue- and how the tuner needs to work the pins back and forth sometimes to free them up a little...
Tight pins do not- of themselves lead to breaking. It is the tuner's responsibility to free them up properly, so that the piano may be able to receive a decent tuning.

Blue pins, nickel plated pins, DOES NOT lead to this situation either... Tuning pins are the least likely area a piano mfg is going to be shoddy. I don't even know where one can find a cheap "Indonesian" maker of tuning pins.

The piano is a complete loss. The re-string/re-pinning on this one MIGHT be a bit more costly, since there may be pins breaking off in the attempt to remove.

This said, I would like to be clear that I am not trying to pick on the Poster- HollowRiku - here... I think we all do things in life that we would like to take back afterward. I was simply trying to counter the tide of voices that were comforting and consoling and encouraging a warranty return as Kawai's responsibility. AND the fact that people WERE suggestive that Kawai was being shoddy in something when there was NO evidence of such a thing.

I am very glad that KawaiDon showed up (as I had thought he would eventually- LOL)... Kawai does care about their reputation, and the customer (as we have seen here). But, as I said- there are going to be hard questions to answer, if someone is thinking they will just blame this on warranty issues with the instrument. I doubt it will fly.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Don,
Is it conceivable that the warranty could end up being voided under the "abuse or neglect" clause? Not that I am advising it...just asking.
Pwg

Certainly a question that comes to mind. Came to mine as soon as I saw the chewed up pins. But there is always the point that Kawai (as others) sometimes are willing to do things above and beyond in order to receive the good will of their customers.


With this I'm done arguing these points. I think LOL smile
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/19/18 11:34 PM

It is certainly a thorny issue. I too, would have walked away from it as did the local tech. Too much risk involved. I must admit, when it comes to DIY I never would have imagined anythong like this. Now we can add it to our book of "this is why you call a professional" to do do this.

Unless of course there are other factors that we have not been apprised of yet...

Pwg
Posted By: HollowRiku

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/20/18 12:32 PM

Hi guys! The right hammer is a Jahn one, not chinese! It's a nice brand, but it's obviously almost identical design-wise to the Fujan one, I don't know if they just copied them (?): https://www.thomann.de/es/jahn_tuning_hammer.htm

I live in Mallorca, an island, humidity here is always quite high but the piano is in a well isolated (don't know if that's the word) room, I've had a Hosseschrueders upright piano for almost 20 years and it didn't have any major problem because of humidity~

The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins, some of them are more damaged than others (the 4th one looks a bit scary), here's a pic:

[Linked Image]

I'm not that strong at all and thought I would be okay tuning it with my older hammer, but I guess you're right that the old hammer could be damaging the pins. I've been quite happy with the piano besides that, according to my technician some of the materials used in this piano aren't up to the quality and standard of a Kawai, he knows how Kawais are made and says this doesn't look like one, but I repeat I don't know much about those things and I've played many amazing Kawai pianos, I do like the brand.

Thomann has told me to sent some videos and pictures and I'm waiting for their reply, but as some of you said it's a delicate case and the easiest thing to do in their case would be fully blaming myself for it. After reading all your posts I admit my part of the blame, specially for using a cheap hammer, but I still don't think it was all because of me :c
Posted By: Chernobieff Piano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/20/18 02:39 PM

They almost look like they were installed when the pinblock glue (between the layers) was still wet. Probably the combination of high torque and a low quality pin was causing you trouble to begin with.
No more flagpoling,
-chris
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/20/18 05:34 PM

Well HollowRiku,

At least you're willing to admit you may have a part in it. That's a good quality. Some would never admit the slightest fault.

Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify). If these are larger than that, that would argue that the piano was restrung/repinned somewhere along the line which might account for the excessive tightness. If so, it would be good to track down when, where, and who did it.

If you have a micrometer and know how to use it you can measure them yourself. Threaded portion, away from any bending.

Also, when you were "tuning" this piano, was there any "snapping" or "popping" of the pins in the process, or did they move smoothly? (Maybe a dumb question but do say anyway).

Pwg
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/20/18 11:25 PM

Quote
Hi guys! The right hammer is a Jahn one, not chinese! It's a nice brand, but it's obviously almost identical design-wise to the Fujan one, I don't know if they just copied them (?): https://www.thomann.de/es/jahn_tuning_hammer.htm



Thank you HollowRIku for the clarification about the carbon fiber lever. It did strike me, on looking at the photo, that the tip looked like the Jahn tip I have on my Fujan. The Chinese ripoff copies seem to have a different tip.


I imagine that Steve Fujan makes and supplies these levers to Jahn, without his name on them, for them to sell with their own branding. They are a reputable and established supply house, and would not infringe his intellectual property rights, I am sure. Plus, Steve would have mentioned it when he replied to me email about the ripoff Chinese copies.


So if damage by ill-fitting tuning lever tip is a factor with these tuning pins, the lever on the left of the pic would be responsible, not the Jahn-supplied carbon fiber lever.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by David Boyce
......So if damage by ill-fitting tuning lever tip is a factor with these tuning pins, the lever on the left of the pic would be responsible, not the Jahn-supplied carbon fiber lever.


He only switched to the other hammer more recently...
The one on the left is the one used for most of the tunings to date.

Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.
I don't see how the clearance is possible. I know when I was in a jam once I tried to use my short Hale #2 on a grand, and busted my knuckles a few times.
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
They almost look like they were installed when the pinblock glue (between the layers) was still wet. Probably the combination of high torque and a low quality pin was causing you trouble to begin with.
No more flagpoling,
-chris

Poor quality tuning pins, Chernobief? I suggest you take that up with Kawai, since you are determined they are faulty.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by HollowRiku
Hi guys!......The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins, some of them are more damaged than others (the 4th one looks a bit scary), here's a pic......
......I'm not that strong at all and thought I would be okay tuning it with my older hammer, but I guess you're right that the old hammer could be damaging the pins. I've been quite happy with the piano besides that, according to my technician some of the materials used in this piano aren't up to the quality and standard of a Kawai, he knows how Kawais are made and says this doesn't look like one, but I repeat I don't know much about those things and I've played many amazing Kawai pianos, I do like the brand.

Thomann has told me to sent some videos and pictures and I'm waiting for their reply, but as some of you said it's a delicate case and the easiest thing to do in their case would be fully blaming myself for it. After reading all your posts I admit my part of the blame, specially for using a cheap hammer, but I still don't think it was all because of me :c


The tight pins have a small role in this when all is factored in.
But, I am afraid that tuning method was bad. BUT, I do think Kawai will work with you on this...Give them a chance. Just be up front. You don't have to go laying all blame on yourself, just describe the situation to them honestly (don't discuss blame)- they will be the ones to decide.

Hope things work out for you with it.

Oh, and Peter is right-- it is a good quality in a person to be able to take blame. I know a lot of people who would be very demanding in this situation (even if they thought they were the cause)- thinking they would be able to get Kawai to do whatever...
Posted By: Bob

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 02:44 AM

I like to use pins with bluing on the thread. It's my experience that bluing along with slower, more careful drilling feels much better than what Indonesia and China are producing. Just a suggestion, Kawai and Yamaha...….
Posted By: BDB

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 05:42 AM

I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 09:40 AM

Quote
Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.



Yes, with just that tip, it would be very difficult, I think, to find a position for the lever, in some places. I have a long tip, and a tip extension for my Fujan, to cover the possibilities for grands.
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.



Yes, with just that tip, it would be very difficult, I think, to find a position for the lever, in some places. I have a long tip, and a tip extension for my Fujan, to cover the possibilities for grands.


My point in asking is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, IF the tips are the ones he used to tune, then one could imagine where the chewing took place- as he could not get clearance the hammer would move up and down and skip along the pin...


Originally Posted by BDB
I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.


It was not a one time event, BDB- that's what I am saying.
He says he tuned it at least 3-4 times a year for over two years. That's at minimal 6-8 tunings total (probably 10), NOT factoring in "touch-up" unison adjustments (which most people who play and tune for themselves also do quite frequently, when they hear slippage)...
My point is that if the harsh treatment is repeated and repeated- (the evidence for it is all there)- then I am quite sure one gets the result that we are all seeing.

When I get a chance sometime here, I am going to go to test out on an old pinblock piece and a new pin- will attempt to destroy the pin in a process that I am talking about (see just how much it takes to do so gradually)-- never thought to try it before.
I'll use a short tip as seen.

I would love to be able to see the tuning technique he uses-- visually. Perhaps I am wrong, but it would be interesting.
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 03:13 PM

I too would be interested in a real time video. How about it HollowRiku? Show us what you're doing. Need to see actual technique on several pins. Don't be embarrassed, this is diagnostics 101. The cure depends on an accurate diagnosis (as Dr. Sarno would say).

Pwg
Posted By: KawaiDon

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by BDB
I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.


BDB, this is because you have never had one break. :-) Have you never removed tuning pins and found them bent? It is very common for some piano tuners to bend tuning pins while tuning, and if they can bend them, the pins can also be broken. As I mentioned earlier, the becket hole is the weak point; with a tuning lever that is too high up on the pin, a very tight fitting tuning pin, and an inexperienced person not understanding what they are doing, the pins can be bent or broken.

If you sometime have a sacrificial piano that you can try it on, do so.
Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?
Posted By: Chernobieff Piano

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 06:03 PM

Kawaii Don,
One thing you said earlier that I have been thinking about was

" the tuning pin has to be softer than the music wire or else strings would break all the time".

This is true and also not true. I agree with the concept, but they shouldn't be so soft as to leave coil depressions around the pin as seen in the photos.
I've restrung hundreds of pianos and never saw that before. Perhaps that could warrant a discount on restringing for the OP?

BTW, I really enjoyed your visit and the class you gave in Knoxville.
-chris
Posted By: UnrightTooner

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/21/18 08:10 PM

I had a tuning pin break in the '70s on a Baldwin Studio. That piano also had a plate bushing missing (?!?!?) along with a broken bass note upper termination pin. I guessed it was a "friday" piano. I am inclinded to believe that bent tuning pins happen on installation. I have no proof one way or another, just my inclination.

I got one of those long tuning heads for grands, used it a few times and now just manuever myself so the handle of the tuning hammer points to the tail of the piano when needed. A longer head creates more flagpoling and can make it more challenging to render the string for best stability.

As far as the OP's original tuning head, I think the spec was like a mechanic's 8-point socket. Thos do not have a taper. Notice how the grooves in the pin get deeper and deeper as the taper widens on the pin?
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/22/18 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?


Hakki,

The information is not mentioned because it is ASSUMED that a professional tuner/tech will be servicing the piano (in fact I think that's actually recommended), and the pros don't need to be told what tip to use...they know.

So my concern is what size these pins are. If they are 1/0 (or nearest metric equivalent) then they are standard issue Kawai. If they are bigger than that I would want to track down exactly why...straight from the factory, or repinned elsewhere?

Pwg
Posted By: Rick_Parks

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/22/18 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?


Hakki,

The information is not mentioned because it is ASSUMED that a professional tuner/tech will be servicing the piano (in fact I think that's actually recommended), and the pros don't need to be told what tip to use...they know.

So my concern is what size these pins are. If they are 1/0 (or nearest metric equivalent) then they are standard issue Kawai. If they are bigger than that I would want to track down exactly why...straight from the factory, or repinned elsewhere?

Pwg


I certainly think this would not hurt to check on, in this given situation. One never really knows what could have happened between MFG and the sale.

I would also think that the MFGs would include a clause to free them of responsibility against DYI in the warranty stipulations!


Edit: In English that would also be known as DIY sheesh

Posted By: Hakki

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 12/23/18 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by HollowRiku
The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins


Did he replace the pins by original Kawai pins?
Posted By: Jitin

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 02/16/19 02:42 PM

Hello Just checking up, was the original poster able to fix this problem, and how much did it take to fix it (money?effort?time?)?
Posted By: Unequally tempered

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 02/16/19 04:03 PM

A most interesting thread.

It looks to me as though there might be a combined problem here. The marks around the pins do look like an interaction of glue with the pins and as such the pins could have led to an inexperienced tuner merely compounding the fundamental problem, that problem being with the manufacturer.

In my opinion and experience it seems to be good practice to let down a string slightly before taking it up. Then the string is working with you to break whatever sticking there is, and then one can bring the string up to pitch without forces compounding on the pin. That's where an inexperience in tuning might have put more pressure on the pins. One then brings the string to slightly above pitch to then settle down exact.

The second aspect of technique with a lever rather than a T hammer is in the rotation. That rotation has got to be a rotation without a leverage bending force. Therefore one may use the further end of the hand on the lever to do the pulling up but use the thumb end of the hand to counteract the sideways bending force. This can be painful on the hand but is best. Otherwise especially with stiff pins, pulling on the end of the lever will both rotate and bend the pin.

For this reason it looks as though wrong hammer technique may have been the deathknell for faulty manufacture, the faulty manufacture being normally hidden by the toleration of experienced tuners to very tight pins.

With proper setting of the pin, taking the string slightly above and letting it settle where it wants to be on pitch, the instrument might have been more stable and needing less frequent tuning. The frequency of tuning suggests inexperience.

The temperature and humidity variations in Mallorca might require more frequent tuning although I have tuned in South of France and Italy with great stability of result as well as in Malta.

Best wishes

David P
Posted By: Jitin

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 02/17/19 12:42 AM

So my question is , is something like this repairable? At reasonable price
Posted By: P W Grey

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins - 02/22/19 02:56 AM

I believe the tuning pins would need replacement at least. Personally, I would Want to restring the piano entirely...probably.

8-16 hours to re-pin. 30-40 hours to restring. Plus materials.

Pwg
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