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How far has ETD progressed ?

Posted By: Fazioli-Yang

How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 04:35 AM

The invention of smart phone with the ability to run apps seems to have removed completely ETDs that come in the form of a hardware. I remember Verituner used to have a hardware and the software was just an option. Now Verituner has done away with hardware completely.

How far have ETDs progressed ? I recall back then TuneLab was the most economical tuning software. To current TuneLab users, how far has this software progressed compared to 8 years ago ?

FY
Posted By: Miguel Rey

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 04:43 AM

What about Tunic OnlyPure. Appears to be the only ET that requires no set up besides selecting the pitch, everything else calculated automatically.
Posted By: Beemer

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Miguel Rey
What about Tunic OnlyPure. Appears to be the only ET that requires no set up besides selecting the pitch, everything else calculated automatically.

I note that the automatic version is more than twice the price of TuneLab.

Ian
Posted By: bobrunyan

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Miguel Rey
What about Tunic OnlyPure. Appears to be the only ET that requires no set up besides selecting the pitch, everything else calculated automatically.


Easy Piano Tuner refines the tuning curve as you add notes, so there is no need to enter a bunch of test notes in advance of tuning. Check out the Android version here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.willeypianotuning.toneanalyzer&hl=en
Posted By: KawaiDon

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 03:29 PM

Verituner works the same way - just start tuning on A, follow an aural sequence, and it creates the tuning as you go.
Posted By: Miguel Rey

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 03:47 PM

So it would appear that quit a few ET's have gotten much easier or limiting the need to fiddle so perhaps it would come down to price, user interface and convenience. Reyburn seems to be commanding the highest and Easy Tuner the lowest.
Posted By: prout

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Miguel Rey
So it would appear that quit a few ET's have gotten much easier or limiting the need to fiddle so perhaps it would come down to price, user interface and convenience. Reyburn seems to be commanding the highest and Easy Tuner the lowest.

The cheapest ETD is still the ‘ETD’ - Ear Tuning Device’ - Works like a charm, produces an infinite number of temperaments, requires no measuremet of iH, and is free.
Posted By: Fazioli-Yang

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/09/17 04:22 PM

What about Sanderson Accu-Tuner ? I can see the ads flashing on the right hand side of this page.
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 03:09 AM

Quote
The cheapest ETD is still the ‘ETD’ - Ear Tuning Device’ - Works like a charm, produces an infinite number of temperaments, requires no measuremet of iH, and is free.


Free? I don't think so. They're attached to this organic thing that ya gotta feed, bathe, exercise, take to the doctor and do a whole host of other things for. My ETA (Electronic Tuning App) just needs some electricity and update now and then. cool
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 03:20 AM

Quote
To current TuneLab users, how far has this software progressed compared to 8 years ago ?


Now, to actually answer your original question. TuneLab has improved a lot. You can sample as many notes as you want and it's using a different type of algorithm now. It's available for Android, iPhone and Windows. I'd encourage you to check out the free demo version here: TuneLab. It's fully functional. The only limitation is that it pauses every 14 notes for 2 minutes.

Easy Piano Tuner, that someone else mentioned, is also capable software. For only $20 it's worth checking out. It'll get the job done.

I also have Tunic OnlyPure and it's really incredible. Very simple to use but difficult to master. It will really challenge your hammer technique because it's so precise.
Posted By: BDB

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 03:22 AM

I have never heard of an ETD that did not require the same organic thing to tune a piano. If there were one that did not, Ed McMorrow would lobby against it!
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 04:14 AM

Nice to be mentioned BDB!

I would like to clarify things a bit though. I am absolutely against giving AI the right to determine what an in-tune state for a piano is. Only people who have passed the tests by using aural judgements should have that authority.

If AI could tune a piano, I would lobby for the thing to pay the same taxes a person doing the job it has taken would pay.

AI should never have the right to kill a person.

The debate really comes down to if people have the right to expect the heritage of human intellectual capital our ancestors created should work for everyone, or only the select few who can finagle ownership. Imagine if Eric Prince and Putin get a hold of killer robotics, they could poison/assassinate several billion people and inherit the world!
Posted By: Fazioli-Yang

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by That Guy
Quote
To current TuneLab users, how far has this software progressed compared to 8 years ago ?


Now, to actually answer your original question. TuneLab has improved a lot. You can sample as many notes as you want and it's using a different type of algorithm now. It's available for Android, iPhone and Windows. I'd encourage you to check out the free demo version here: TuneLab. It's fully functional. The only limitation is that it pauses every 14 notes for 2 minutes.

Easy Piano Tuner, that someone else mentioned, is also capable software. For only $20 it's worth checking out. It'll get the job done.

I also have Tunic OnlyPure and it's really incredible. Very simple to use but difficult to master. It will really challenge your hammer technique because it's so precise.


Thanks for the summary, Scott.

Glad you mentioned TuneLab. I can more or less understand how the ability of the software to chart its own tuning curve on different pianos works if sample notes are being registered at the outset.

But with Easy Piano Tuner and Tunic OnlyPure, where the software "tunes as it goes", just like the Verituner, is difficult to imagine.


Posted By: Ed Foote

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 10:34 AM

Greetings,
The machine is only a tool, and bears little discussion. The manner in which the tool is employed is a more profitable topic. All of the modern, programmable, machines, on a well scaled piano, will produce superior results to 90% of the aural tuners I have encountered. It will match 5% of them, and that last 5% will have a very small market that can tell their differences.

On the big pianos, the FAC tuning on my SAT has proven itself to a long list of world-recognized talent, in performance and recording, (tuners can get away with murder on performance tuning, it is under the microphones, in front of a producer, that things are totally unforgiving.) I had no qualms about using it, simply to test, for perhaps the world's number one cellist as the master tracks were recorded. It was very well received. I have an ear modified program for most of the pianos I see, and they have been tweaked here and there to match what I hear, rather than simple formulae from IH measurements. On a D, the difference between my "refined" template and the machine generated one is so small that it can be tossed into the moot basket and no one would notice.

It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off. There are situations where the machine is going to give an inferior result to even a journeyman level tech, and there are places that the best tech will have to strain to keep up .
regards,
Posted By: staveoff

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 02:05 PM

I find that one big advantage of an ETD is that it limits my ear fatigue. Sometimes I start with the ETD to get me close to in tune and then I can fine tune to my liking while I am fresh. Also, I often put in ear plugs in the beginning of tuning session and just follow the ETD, especially when the piano needs more than just a touch up. Then I remove the plugs and fine tune everything from there.

On the AI front, Tunic Only pure seems to win the prize as it apparently can tune the entire piano, unisons and all, without any listening from the tuner. Those who have it claim that it does a great job, though. But as was written before, it comes at a high price. In that sense it comes down to how much control you want over your tuning. With Tunelab and Verituner you can change a lot of settings including trying various temperaments and stretches. But, there is a lot of experimentation with that, especially for each new piano that you tune.
Posted By: staveoff

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 02:09 PM




How does it Tunic Only pure do with false beats? Do you just look for a best fit or is there always an obvious target that you are trying to hit?
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by BDB
I have never heard of an ETD that did not require the same organic thing to tune a piano. If there were one that did not, Ed McMorrow would lobby against it!


You are correct but, we were talking about the device only. My device is not attached to me and therefore requires no organic matter to exist. Ears cannot exist without organic matter attached to them.
Posted By: BDB

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by That Guy
Originally Posted by BDB
I have never heard of an ETD that did not require the same organic thing to tune a piano. If there were one that did not, Ed McMorrow would lobby against it!


You are correct but, we were talking about the device only. My device is not attached to me and therefore requires no organic matter to exist. Ears cannot exist without organic matter attached to them.


Sure they can. All you need is the proper size hole saw!
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 05:11 PM

Quote
Sure they can. All you need is the proper size hole saw!


Well, I guess you're right! I stand corrected...or actually I'm sitting right now so, I sit corrected... laugh
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ed Foote


It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.



OnlyPure, Verituner, and CyberTuner have no particular problem tuning small pianos. The modern ETD's tune lesser scales just fine. Of course, when the tuning is done, we still hear the lesser scale as a lesser scale, but it is a lesser scale that is quite in tune. 8^)

Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by Fazioli-Yang
The invention of smart phone with the ability to run apps seems to have removed completely ETDs that come in the form of a hardware. I remember Verituner used to have a hardware and the software was just an option. Now Verituner has done away with hardware completely.

How far have ETDs progressed ? I recall back then TuneLab was the most economical tuning software. To current TuneLab users, how far has this software progressed compared to 8 years ago ?

FY


Hi,

I am not an expert with ETD's at all, the only one I tested was the VT-100 Yamaha in the 80's.

I too am interested to know how they have progressed. For instance, I remember that then, the mid-range was pretty approximate, but bass and trebles were a bit all over the place. Now thinking about it, it was pretty much the same with another expensive ETD dated 2009.

Not really comparing aural tunings, since the individual ear may or may not be able to discern or appreciate a difference, referring this to both the tuner and a customer with their own ear limits... But how are ETD's doing with those ranges nowadays?

To those colleagues who own and use more than one ETD, have you compared/cross-checked their "tunings" of a particular stretch scheme, how similar/consistent they are across the keyboard and in those critical ranges, how they match or do not-match with each other and with a particular scheme?

Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Chris Leslie

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 09:57 PM


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"

The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.
Posted By: prout

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/10/17 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Foote


It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.



OnlyPure, Verituner, and CyberTuner have no particular problem tuning small pianos. The modern ETD's tune lesser scales just fine. Of course, when the tuning is done, we still hear the lesser scale as a lesser scale, but it is a lesser scale that is quite in tune. 8^)
’...quite in tune.”

There’s the rub.

Who or what decides when a piano is ‘quite in tune’? What aspects of the tuning make it ‘quite in tune’ or ‘not quite in tune’? Is it a binary decision or is there a ‘range’ of different, but all equally ‘quite in tune’ tunings for a given piano? If the latter, then how is the ‘range’ defined. This line of reasoning of course could go on for ever.

We all purport to know when a piano is in tune, and yet, there have been endless discussions on defining something ‘as simple’ as ET. Words like ‘harmonious’, ‘organ-like’, ‘minimal entropy’, and the like are used as if they were objective, scientific terms.
Posted By: Ed Sutton

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 12:09 AM

What is the list of conditions for which we can reasonably say "This piano is not in tune?"
If none of those circumstances are met, then perhaps we can say "this piano is quite in tune."
Even if we don't like it.
Posted By: Agent88

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 02:35 AM

Pfft. This just has to be easier than you guys let on. I looked at Tunic OnlyPure in the App Store and it says it’s for ages 4+! Poor Ed M’s world is going to be destroyed by an army of toddlers.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Foote


It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.



OnlyPure, Verituner, and CyberTuner have no particular problem tuning small pianos. The modern ETD's tune lesser scales just fine. Of course, when the tuning is done, we still hear the lesser scale as a lesser scale, but it is a lesser scale that is quite in tune. 8^)
’...quite in tune.”

There’s the rub.

Who or what decides when a piano is ‘quite in tune’? What aspects of the tuning make it ‘quite in tune’ or ‘not quite in tune’? Is it a binary decision or is there a ‘range’ of different, but all equally ‘quite in tune’ tunings for a given piano? If the latter, then how is the ‘range’ defined. This line of reasoning of course could go on for ever.

We all purport to know when a piano is in tune, and yet, there have been endless discussions on defining something ‘as simple’ as ET. Words like ‘harmonious’, ‘organ-like’, ‘minimal entropy’, and the like are used as if they were objective, scientific terms.


Wise words. I'm trying to insert a "tumbs-up" icon but it seems broken.

Data we have from PTG ETD/Aural showdowns indicate ETD tunings are at least as good as aural tunings. But that was probably on "nice and easy to tune" instruments. Only way to settle this is to compare ETD /Aural tunings on "low end" pianos, and have an expert panel evaluate them blind.

I know you have a "high end" piano, have you ever compared an ETD tuning (probably executed by yourself) with an aural tuning by a "top notch" aural tuner, if you managed to find such a person?

Kees
Posted By: prout

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 12:48 PM

I had Michael Ierullo from Toronto tune the piano (aural, open string method) three times when it was new, then I started tuning it myself, both aurally for UTs and using TuneLab, then Dirk’s Tuner for ET. My own tech wanted to try his new SAT 4 on my piano, so I let him.

I can honesty and very subjectively say that I could not tell the difference amongst the ETs from a musician’s perspective. I did not count beats or check the progression of intervals.

My experience three grands ago with my sub 5 foot version was very different. I had one aural tuner whose tuning I much preferred over anyone else (The piano had lived with me in N.H., and 5 places in Ontario over a period of 40+ years and several rebuilds.) He seemed to make the best out of a not-very-nice piano.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 02:38 PM

Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 02:45 PM

In the interests of punctuation sticklers, I think it should be André Watts's piano, or possibly André Watts' piano would be permissible.

The pianist's name is André Watts, not André Watt.
Posted By: Bernhard Stopper

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!


The best pianists usually started playing at age < 4...
Can´t see why this should be wrong for tuners wink


Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/11/17 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings,
The machine is only a tool, and bears little discussion. The manner in which the tool is employed is a more profitable topic.


I would agree.


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

All of the modern, programmable, machines, on a well scaled piano, will produce superior results to 90% of the aural tuners I have encountered.


Hmm... Ed, I am not sure if what you are saying is meant to prize ETD's, or the aural tuners you have encountered.


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

It will match 5% of them, and that last 5% will have a very small market that can tell their differences.


Does that mean that tuning aurally would give little or insignificant advantage where you work?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

On the big pianos, the FAC tuning on my SAT has proven itself to a long list of world-recognized talent, in performance and recording, (tuners can get away with murder on performance tuning, it is under the microphones, in front of a producer, that things are totally unforgiving.) I had no qualms about using it, simply to test, for perhaps the world's number one cellist as the master tracks were recorded. It was very well received.


Did you have to readjust bass and trebles?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

I have an ear modified program for most of the pianos I see, and they have been tweaked here and there to match what I hear, rather than simple formulae from IH measurements. On a D, the difference between my "refined" template and the machine generated one is so small that it can be tossed into the moot basket and no one would notice.


Which is the D you mention? Where do you need to tweak most often?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.


What would you say is the percentage of "well scaled" and "inferior scaled" pianos around, in your area?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

There are situations where the machine is going to give an inferior result to even a journeyman level tech, and there are places that the best tech will have to strain to keep up .
regards,


Yes, you said that at the beginning, it depends on "...The manner in which the tool is employed". So, in your experience, do ETD's still need some "aural" tweaking?

Thanks for sharing your know-how.

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Agent88

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/12/17 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!


The best pianists usually started playing at age < 4...
Can´t see why this should be wrong for tuners wink




Well played.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/12/17 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.
Posted By: kpembrook

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.


Well, yes but that doesn't get us to objective data.

ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data. They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program. Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary. It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at. It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA.

Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 01:38 AM

Quote
Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.


I agree, although the A could also stand of "App" as in Application. The Device thing was started because at one time the ETA's were stand alone devices. Now most tuning programs are apps that are put on a device, although there's still the Accu-Tuner and TLA that are stand alone devices.
Posted By: That Guy

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 02:01 AM

Quote
What about Sanderson Accu-Tuner ? I can see the ads flashing on the right hand side of this page.


It is the granddaddy of modern tuning devices. I haven't used one but if you want a stand alone device this would be the way to go. In my mind it would be good for people who don't have a smartphone and just want to have a device that tunes pianos. One advantage is that the battery lasts a long time, like days, if not weeks, depending on how much you use it. Compared to other apps it is a little limited and a down side would be the size. It's also rather expensive, especially compared to Easy Piano Tuner ($20) that even has a pitch raise feature and can save unlimited tuning files.
Posted By: daniokeeper

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 02:13 AM

Is TLA still manufactured? After visiting the website, there are no prices listed, not even in Euros. There also doesn't seem to be any contact info.
Posted By: DoelKees

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by prout
I had Michael Ierullo from Toronto tune the piano (aural, open string method) three times when it was new, then I started tuning it myself, both aurally for UTs and using TuneLab, then Dirk’s Tuner for ET. My own tech wanted to try his new SAT 4 on my piano, so I let him.

I can honesty and very subjectively say that I could not tell the difference amongst the ETs from a musician’s perspective. I did not count beats or check the progression of intervals.
Interesting, that is a data point.
Originally Posted by prout
My experience three grands ago with my sub 5 foot version was very different. I had one aural tuner whose tuning I much preferred over anyone else (The piano had lived with me in N.H., and 5 places in Ontario over a period of 40+ years and several rebuilds.) He seemed to make the best out of a not-very-nice piano.

Did the "anyone else" use an ETD?

Kees
Posted By: prout

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 12:30 PM

No one, to my knowledge, ever used an ETD on my sub 5 foot grand.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/13/17 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.


Well, yes but that doesn't get us to objective data.

ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data. They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program. Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary. It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at. It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA.

Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.


Hi Keith,

Thanks for your comment.

You wrote: ..."ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data.".

Yes, I agree, especially "final data" (!!), ETA do not (because they cannot) "guaranty" what you will hear at the end of "their" tuning. If not "..scientific..", what could the word be?

..."..They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program."...

Yes, agreed.

..."Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary."...

Perhaps not for all of them, have you checked the EPT?

..."It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at."...

I thought that some ETA (can't remember which) was able to do that.

..."..It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA."

Hmm... for instance, it wouldn't make sense checking the discrepancies between the various ETA "pure 12ths" stretch schemes that are available today, is that what you mean?
.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by kpembrook

ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data. They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program. Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary.


This morning I found this, a very detailed description by David Carpenter. The Sanderson and the Reyburn methods also are addressed at the beginning:

https://www.google.sr/patents/US20040025672

How far those ETA have progressed since then, I am not able to say, especially for what concerns the tuning of unisons, bass and trebles.

At [0199] we read:

"In the preferred embodiment, to determine the tuning corrections that will benefit the most important intervals, an interval prioritization table is set by weighting various interval types for each note in the piano, for example, as shown in Table 10..."...

I am not sure I understand that. Could someone help and say what we should understand?

Regards, a.c.
.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 03:33 PM

Frequency and pitch are not the same thing. Pitch is the way humans describe certain frequencies, (usually within a musical construct), so it takes a human auditory response to characterize it.

Measuring anything always entails error. No measurement is absolute.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"In the preferred embodiment, to determine the tuning corrections that will benefit the most important intervals, an interval prioritization table is set by weighting various interval types for each note in the piano, for example, as shown in Table 10..."...

I am not sure I understand that. Could someone help and say what we should understand?

.


Each note of the piano forms an interval with every other note of the piano, but for purposes of piano tuning, some intervals are more important than others, so the various intervals are prioritized.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"In the preferred embodiment, to determine the tuning corrections that will benefit the most important intervals, an interval prioritization table is set by weighting various interval types for each note in the piano, for example, as shown in Table 10..."...

I am not sure I understand that. Could someone help and say what we should understand?

.


Each note of the piano forms an interval with every other note of the piano, but for purposes of piano tuning, some intervals are more important than others, so the various intervals are prioritized.


Thanks, Kent, I appreciate.

I find that feature intriguing, as it involves the way we listen to and evaluate a tuning, beat perception relative to some "important" intervals and the sense of "in tune" as a whole.

Is the user enabled to modify the way intervals are prioritized?
.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Is the user enabled to modify the way intervals are prioritized?



Yes, to a limited extent. In the style files, three intervals can be chosen in each octave and weighted in relation to each other.

However, overall, the user is given quite complete control of the amount of stretch through the scale.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Is the user enabled to modify the way intervals are prioritized?



I don't think so. Too complex. However, that said, the user is given quite complete control of the amount of stretch through the scale.



Complete control of the amount of stretch is (IMO) useful. When I think about partials matching, I realize I have no idea about which partials end up playing the most important role in my aural tunings, never figured that out. As for intervals, meaning "important" intervals, I wonder what the result would be with a different priority table.

There, they use this:

Octave Octave Octave Fifth Fifth Fourth Third Third Tenth
..4:2 .....2:1 .....4:1 ...6:4...3:2 ..4:3 ....5:4 ..6:5 ...5:2

Edit: And I wonder if that table was "assumed" or what.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 10:28 PM

I have corrected my previous post.
Posted By: alfredo capurso

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/14/17 10:35 PM



Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
I have corrected my previous post.


Thanks.

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Is the user enabled to modify the way intervals are prioritized?



Yes, to a limited extent. In the style files, three intervals can be chosen in each octave and weighted in relation to each other.

However, overall, the user is given quite complete control of the amount of stretch through the scale.


Meaning that those three intervals are within the octave, that they cannot be wider than an octave?
.
Posted By: Kent Swafford

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/15/17 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


Meaning that those three intervals are within the octave, that they cannot be wider than an octave?



No. The styles are organized by octave, but the individual intervals that are referenced can be various coincident partial pairs of octaves, 12ths, double-octaves, triple-octaves, etc., depending upon which part of the scale is being tuned.
Posted By: David Boyce

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/29/17 05:24 PM

Fazioli-Yang, have you made any decisions on the basis of the replies here? Did you decide to go for a particular tuning software? How is it working out for you?
Posted By: Fazioli-Yang

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? - 10/30/17 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Boyce
Fazioli-Yang, have you made any decisions on the basis of the replies here? Did you decide to go for a particular tuning software? How is it working out for you?

I am going to try Easy Piano app for sure because it's just $20. I need to buy a hammer before I can try it out.

And many thanks to That Guy who provided a really good update on the subject of this thread.
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