Ok, I just got my first bottle of Protek CLP,
and I'm a bit disappointed that for $12.50
I only got a 4 fluid oz. bottle.

Or maybe this will last me longer than I think?

I refuse to believe that there isn't something a bit
cheaper per fluid ounce, that would work just as good...

You don't need to use more than a drop on one side of the flange.
Gaunt Industries sells a nice variety of hypo-oilers. I like the one with the 23 gauge needle.
It gives you a lot of control in applying Protek CLP judiciously.

This is the one I use most:

http://www.amazon.com/Gaunt-Industries-HYPO-25-Applicator-Weld/dp/B00EZRQOAY

While Protek CLP is my favorite centerpin lubricant, my other chemical of choice for loosening stiff flanges is distilled water and denatured alcohol 50/50 put into the hypo-oiler mentioned above. I usually only use this method with the action in the shop. It initially caused the action to seize up, which is very disconcerting at first, but once it dries it can really free things up, and you are not leaving any residues in the flange bushings.

I've thought about this also, Paul.

Protek is expensive because it uses a perfluorinated solvent. If you look up bulk prices for perfluorinated solvents, they are very expensive also from various sources. I do not know why.. possibly an inflated market for a rare solvent, or expensive synthesis reactions to create it.

Regardless, this type of solvent is necessary to effectively dissolve PTFE and related fluorinated substances. There are common solvents that do it, but not as well.

Another source for PTFE lubricants in a liquid carrier are in the machining and bike industries. There, you find the cost is much cheaper, but I do not know how the effect on wood and organic parts might vary in the long term.

Fear and ignorance can be powerful tools in cornering a market.. along with hiding your ingredient label. The piano market is for some reason, very inflated when buying absolutely everything, from tools, to parts, to common solvents.

Greetings,
If the price of pro-tek is a problem, you are not charging nearly enough for your time. That 12 dollar bottle should allow you to do at least $500 worth of problem solving. After seeing what happens after a mix of silicone and naphtha, baby oil in acetone, wd-40 sprayed, etc, Pro-tek is the cheapest thing I have seen used.
Regards,

How do you guys carry this into the field? This, and other liquid and glue-type chemical stuff? Thanks!

--Andy

Believe it, Paul. I order a gallon (around $200) every several years and swear by it. Like Ed said, it will solve a lot of problems. Chuck

"How do you guys carry this into the field? This, and other liquid and glue-type chemical stuff? Thanks!

--Andy"

I carry some of the caps that don't have a hole - you can buy them directly from Gaunt Industries. When I'm done using Protek, I remove the needle cap with it's plastic cover and replace it with the solid cap to keep it from leaking out. I carry my supply of lubricants in a clear plastic make-up bag. I carry powdered Teflon, Prolube, Protek, VJ lube (Vaseline, talcum powder, lanolin), and some Tri-Flow. No WD-40!
http://www.gauntindustries.com/1_1_1_4_and_2_oz_Tops-Small_Caps_Without_Hole.html

Wow, really?

I tuned and serviced 4 pianos in the last two weeks, which is a lot for a part-timer such as myself, so I need all the help I can get! Pretty good for only advertising on Craigslist...I think there's a decent market for techs here in Tucson!

Let me test it out on my Richmond first...

Yes, a 4 oz bottle goes a long way. When you only use a few drops at a time it can take quite a while to use the whole bottle. I just carry the bottle with me along with a hypodermic needle to apply it.

I carry a small plastic tube like the ones that come on carburetor cleaner cans and use it like a lab pipette.

When I'm regulating a grand or upright action, I routinely put a drop on every center pin bushing using a hypo oiler. Also, I put a drop on on both sides of both center pin and front rail pin key bushings for both grands and uprights and also the bushings on guide holes for grand dampers. In my opinion, it's good preventative medicine for any interface between felt and metal. I keep a quart container (available in the Schaff catalog) filled from the gallon can, and then fill the hypo oiler from the quart container. I've gotten good at filling it without a funnel without spilling any. For what they charge, it hurts to spill the slightest amount!

How about some on the capstans?

And on one of the videos I saw, the guy recommended putting
some where the hammer butt felts and the hammer butt springs
touch.

Thanks, Ry! I was thinking about a sewing caddy, something like this, with places for little bottles and big spray cans, and something that would sit flat on the floor:



But then, I was also thinking that it might be nice to have something where the supplies are enclosed. I have also been thinking that it would be nice to be able to carry the least number of totes and tool bags to get out of the house in the morning and then back into the house at the end of the day... As you can tell, I am having a little trouble developing my mobile workspace!

--Andy

Is Protek better for the Capstan surface and the Jack/hammer butt surface as compared to graphite materials?

Teflon powder is usually better for surfaces where graphite was traditionally used.

I HATE graphite!! Don't ever put it in a piano! Especially the powdered kind. AWFUL stuff. SMHaley is correct about the Teflon powder.

Finally!!
Something we can all agree on.

??

Spoke too soon?

Thanks!

Steve

Its a new year rxd. Why not revel in a bit of optimism until a little later in the year?

Ditto the comments on using CLP. If there were other options, people would be using them. Yes, you can use alcohol/water and other potions and they do work, but nothing holds a candle to CLP which normally works instantly and even makes headway against Steinway verdigris after a couple of minutes in many cases.

Also regarding price. Again agree with earlier poster -- if you think price is a problem, they you are way out of the ballpark in terms of what you are charging. For me, it's a total non-issue. I buy it, use it to make customers happy, get paid money and after a good long while buy some more -- happily paying whatever it costs at the time.

I store it in my tool case in a sample-size shampoo bottle (with the shampoo emptied out, of course).

The problem with most YouTube videos is that they either have some level of mis-information or are able to be construed incorrectly by novices. And that even goes for some official PTG videos.

In any case, do not put CLP on sliding felt/metal joints like capstans and keypins. It's great on action centers and on string bearing points, but the appropriate lubricant for sliding surfaces is a teflon-type film like McLube -- whose first intended application is as a mould release agent. Also, micro-fine powdered Teflon can be applied to the wippen heel felt as well as to the knuckle. CLP in sliding situations like keypins and damper wires can cause squeaks. (Not always but I've seen it happen more than once).

Just install WNG hard-anodized capstans and you have permanently ended the polishing/lubrication issue as well as making the action more responsive due to reduction of needless mass.

I have had very limited success with Protek on Steinway verdigris. It helps, but not a lot and the sluggishness almost always comes back. It seems to work better if you hit the flanges with a heat gun after applying the Protek. I usually use heat until the flanges start to smoke. I know that sounds terrible, but it helps to burn off some of the gunk in the flanges. I then will follow with another application of Protek. Make sure to warn the client about this before hand! Seeing you aim a gun like object at at their smoking Steinway action could elicit a number of untoward responses.

The last time I did this was to a music faculty's home piano - her families old Steinway L. She said it had always been sluggish. After the treatment she was amazed and very happy.

Yeah, well, with verdigris you just try to do what you can. New components are the best guaranteed fix. . .

Microwave also works -- and with less smoke. Just pop the component into the microwave and keep giving it 10 second shots until it's free. (Well, I'd give up after a half dozen, but usually notice improvement in 1 or 2.) The microwave mostly heats the pin rather than the wood.

Greetings, Mr Sowers or anyone really -

I saw these texts a few years ago and was wondering if there are any updates to the knowledge base around Goof-Off for the verdigris question. They are interesting reads, I think.

http://moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/2007-October/211806.html
http://www.mmdigest.com/Archives/Digests/200104/2001.04.06.08.html

Many thanks-

Knowing ONLY what I read in this forum about piano tech... an exaggeration, I don't understand much of it

I would be more than a little nervous of being exposed to Xylene on a regular basis.
The link in the post is dated 2007, but I was disappointed that solvents with Xylene were still on the market then - and may still be.

There are many solvents that can have a temporary effect on verdigris, but I wonder if any solvent based solution can last. The Xylene should eventually completely evaporate out, but all the crud will still be in the parts and I would guess they will eventually turn gummy again.

I have some goof off - I'll have to give it a try.

I wondered if Protek CLP really was developed and produced just for the piano trade, or if in fact it was something else re-packaged. If the latter, I thought, it might be cheaper to obtain it under its original packaging, for whatever market that was intended. It's hard to find out much about the proprietors of Protek CLP, or about its formulation, apart from basic information. I bought one or two other products with "CLP" in the name - non piano products. But they weren't the same at all. After a good bit oif looking and trying, I gave up and stuck with paying for the Protek CLP. It really is so useful.

Thanks for your comments, Mr Sowers,
So, I looked up Goof Off, and it is mostly Xylene as has been noted. The other active ingredient is a solvent with vapor pressure 1% that of water:

This stuff
Also know as
This stuff

So, it eventually evaporates, but slowly. Mark R (in South Africa) reported that Protek CLP dries down to nothing but a residue after some time too. I wonder what that residue looked like, i.e., some suspended lubricant particles (If they exist in it?) or just the less volatile components of the distribution you have in any petrochemicals.

Best regards-

I've used a product called TREWAX hardwood floor cleaner to rinse verdigris from old Steinway parts. It's inexpensive and available locally. I have only experimented on parts that I replaced with new. TREWAX seems to dissolve the verdigris. After a few applications no more green crud comes out. It has only been a year but the parts still have the proper amount of friction. I did not apply TREWAX as a lubricant but as a cleaner, more like hose it out. I had to repin after treatment due to wobbly parts. CLP resulted in wobbly parts also.

They are. You are probably right. In this day and age, there is no need, and it is not the best of ideas to use paint/lacquer thinner/stripper for the piano action application--one might accidentally strip some lacquer off of something. Still, the concepts of what and why the chemicals work or don't work is interesting.
Best wishes-

My understanding of what agent was applied to Steinway flanges that reacted to produce the "verdigris" is: the flanges were soaked with a paraffin and naptha solution. This reduces the amount and speed with which the wood can react to humidity changes. The typical application points were the hammer and whippen flanges. Occasionally you find actions with only the hammer flanges treated, or one with all the flanges treated.

Heating the flange with a heat gun until the oil smokes and boils out of the flanges can help restore playability. But this also loosens the pin in the flange so repining is often needed. And if you are going to repin you might as well replace the flange and just clean the bushing with a solvent like acetone when the flange is removed. Then when you push the new pin in to check the size you can use a rag to pick up the gunk squeezed out of the felt. Do each side separately before you push the pin into both bushings.

Normal "Teflon spray", that one can buy in automotive supplies, is indeed a suspension of fine Teflon powder in a propellant/solvent. When the solvent evaporates, the part is covered with fine Teflon particles.

But Protek CLP is different. It is not a suspension, but a solution of some perfluorinated polymer (i.e. a material similar to Teflon) in a perfluorinated solvent. When the solvent evaporates, what remains on the centre pin is not a powder consisting of particles, but a thin, homogeneous film of the polymer. The bushing cloth is also impregnated with the polymer residue, so these two solid films then glide over each other.

Side note: I haven't been able to get Protek CLP in South Africa. It's classified as a Hazmat...

Greetings, Mark R-
Thanks very much for your information.

By the way, here is your post about it drying up that I was mentioning:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2159441/Suitable_solvent_for_Protek_CL.html

You and others have written, "According to the manufacturer, the original solvent is a fluorinated polymer."
Just out of sheer curiosity, did you ever get the solvent you were looking for, and who is it that are your referring to, specifically, as the manufacturer, if you please.

Best wishes-

Hi phacke,

I have not actually tried to re-dissolve my dried-out Protek CLP. Never got around to those experiments... What put me off, is that the most promising candidate, MEK, is a very aggressive solvent for plastics and finishes.

I don't know who manufactures Protek. The information that I wrote here (namely that Protek CLP is perfluoropolymer dissolved in perfluorosolvent), comes straight from the bottle.

Alright, then what do you use instead?

I first try alcohol and water in two or three passes of varying strength. If that doesn't work, I burnish the bushing (preceded, if needed, by a light broaching/reaming) and re-pin it. Or, if the bushing is dirty and gummed-up, I would replace it outright. (Haven't done the latter often, really just for practice.)

I actually like re-pinning for the consistency that can be achieved, once one has caught onto it.

Or for what purpose. I can't imagine that it's been formulated and marketed just for pianos - a very niche market. I think it must be something else repackaged.

David,

When I read up on soluble perfluorinated polymers and suitable solvents, I came across Teflon AF (Du Pont), Cytop (Asahi Glass) and Hyflon AD (Solvay Solexis). They are used as optical (anti-reflective) coatings, photo mask covers, low-dielectric coatings on semiconductors, mould release agents, etc. - in other words, no run-of-the-mill applications.

I wouldn't be surprised if Protek CLP is the same stuff as one of these. This would also explain its price. Those soluble perfluoropolymers are expensive.

Mark, I found some of those too, after my last post! I wonder who got the idea of piano applications for such materials, and how. Interesting.

Well, I lubricated my Richmond's front key pins, balance rail pins, and all the capstans, with Protek CLP, and the difference is impressive.

Not only faster trilling, but smoother overall playing, and easier pianissimo ppp.

It's kinda like the difference between skating with old, beat up roller skates, and then going ice skating on a slick, smooth frozen lake!

Uhhh....well worth the $12.50, and I didn't use very much of it.

Ok, so I also got a hypo oiler from Howard piano, and I want to hit the flange center pins as well. The whippen flanges look inaccessible without removing the action. Can the jack flanges be lubed without removing each whippen, if you sneak the tip of the oiler between the parts? And can the hammer butt flanges be lubed the same way (although someone warned about too little friction being a problem there), or do you have to remove all 88 butts?

Brigham pianos recommended adding CLP to the damper lever felt where the damper spring is, for squeaking, but it's surely a friction point as well. I might add some to the hammer butt springs too.

Wow, I'll bet Teflon powder on the hammer butt leather would make
this Richmond REALLY fly!

Go ahead and pull the action and lubricate all the centerpins, and I think the spring cushions are a good idea too, especially the damper springs.

Another good spot to hit with the Protek is the damper levers where the spoons contact. You can use a small brush for this to conserve, and while you are at it brush some on the damper lift rod and put a little bit on the hanger bushings.

Of course you could just invest in a Protek dip tank!

Splosh it around liberally. We have to keep our suppliers in business. Think what we would have to do without them.

I had some for breakfast this morning with two pieces of hot buttered stringing felt.

Ok, it looks like the whippen center pins are the main reason
to pull the action, because with the hammer butt and jack pins, it
looks like you would still need to take each unit out (or at least
every other unit), to properly access the pins.

However, it looks like I might be able to reach each pin with my hypo oiler tip, by sneaking it between the flanges....

I should have bought this stuff at the beginning.

Now I like the dip tank idea. If that doesn't do the trick, you can use sheep dip. It is wool after all.

This thread is getting really dippy.

Yea, this thread has run into a wall. I think it was that rXd fella what done it.

I also buy it by the gallon... the most valuable thing in my tool case.

I use Pro-Tek on upright hammer springs when they are squeaking, but for damper levers, I use powdered Teflon. You can take the action out and very quickly run an artist's brush full of Teflon powder along all the damper levers and that will remove that annoying noise.

I am a chemist and a pianist (holding a doctoral degree in chemistry). I just bought a bottle of Protek CLP as well as the pure PTFE powder on Ebay and lubricated several tweaking parts inside my piano. The effect is fantastic; my instrument is silent now (except for the music I play).

From the information in the safety data sheet, it is obvious that the formulation of Protek CLP is simply 99 weight-% isoparaffins C12-C14 and 1 weight-% PTFE powder (polytetrafluoroethylene powder). There is nothing more in it than that, so the 4 oz bottle should be worth about 30 cents for the content plus 50 cents for the bottle.

Protek CLP bears the warning for aspiration hazard which is nothing to worry about as long as nobody drinks it. Ingestion and aspiration leads to chemical pneumonitis that often leads to death, especially in the case of children (keep away from children). The bottle therefore has a safety cap not expected to be opened by children.

As mentioned in this thread, Protek CLP is extremely expensive and hard to get in some countries for reasons unknown. So here are the alternatives:

1. Buy the pure and dry PTFE powder from this vendor in China and apply it with the help of an artist's brush. PTFE powder on Ebay

2. Protek CLP - DIY: dissolve between 1 and 10 weight-% of the PTFE powder in a nonpolar solvent you get in a hardware store. You may use a lamp oil such as this, the msds says it contains only paraffins C10-C14. The exact concentration of the PTFE is not important as long as there is a satisfactory lubricating effect. lamp oil paraffins C10-C14

Very interesting. As a chemist, what would you say is in wd40?

WD40 contains somewhat lower boiling paraffins (mainly C9-C11 in Europe, C9-C16 in the US) in which a small quantity of Vaseline is dissolved (plus a propellant to make an aerosol) and does not have good lubricating properties. The only lubricating effect that lasts a bit comes from the Vaseline; the other substances evaporate quickly. However, it has good cleaning properties and therefore re-activates lubricants that are already present on the surface but have lost their properties because of dirt. I would not recommend WD40 to be applied inside a piano because after evaporation of the solvent you get a film of greasy Vaseline. PTFE, instead, is completely dry and reliably adheres to the surface for a very long time.

Also very interesting, many thanks.
Nick

With caution I'll remind folks of ballistoil, a refined mineral oil.
I don't know the current practice, but this was commonly used in German pianos and was recommended by German manufacturers at least as late as the 1990s.
I've only used it on leather keybushings, but long ago I saw an old technician use it to lubricate hammer flanges.
I can't report on long term effects.
Ballistoil can be purchased from gun supply companies.

I make my own center pin Lubricant and share the recipe in the video below. It is silicone based. I prefer the silicone to Teflon because of its penetration attributes. Plus silicone as a lubricant has a long trusted history on piano actions. The ingredients are easy to get.
Enjoy!
-chris

Ballistol I believe. Just smells like a big wet dirty dog. Some people think it smells like pine trees...not to me it doesn't.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Many years ago we used to use cigarette lighter fluid which presumably had no lubricant at all. I imagine it just cleared dampness and cleaned because it used to work well

Basically naptha as I recall.

Other concoctions along that line were naptha and silicone, naptha and mineral oil, etc.


Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I just would like to point out that Naphtha (unlike paraffins) is usually classified and labelled mutagenic, carcinogenic and teratogenic (H340, H350 and H361 according to the GHS system of classification and labelling of substances and mixtures) and therefore it is not available to non-professional users (well, maybe you find a manufacturer or vendor who does not comply with the hazmat regulations).

Pianist685,
As you most likely are aware (or should be), the U.N.'s purpose is not your safety, it wants to remove your freedom.
I don't recommend drinking Naptha, you CAN use gloves if you wish (I don't when i pour it in a bottle from a can), nor am i against using something else. But Naptha and Silicone has been used for over 150 years on piano actions, because it works, and works well.
Of course you don't want to swim in it either. Its perfectly safe if you use your own common sense and take the precautions you're happy with. Here in the U.S. its readily available in every Hardware store, because its the main solvent for enamel paint.

-chris

Yes, it is available by the gallon at Home Depot, as is toluene and MEK. How's that for looking out for your health? Lol!

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I love this.

If I didn't have a [censored] chemistry teacher in high school, I would have pursued my passion and studied chemistry. I'm still happy with Biology.

I think you are a bit too hard on the UN.

Any material can be used in a safe manner with the appropriate precautions. And you are a professional user. That makes a difference. However, as far as I am aware, Naphtha is not available in European hardware stores, you only get more refined paint thinners that are classified less harmful.

I am also a chemist and a pianist with a PhD in chemistry.

I remember reading the Protek CLP data sheet a couple of years ago. The solvents are perfluorinated, not simple paraffins. (As a chemist, you should be well aware that PTFE will not dissolve in hydrocarbons. You need partial or full fluorination of the solvents.)

Sorry, but I see no chance of success for your recipe.

Thank you for that clarification, Mark R. Though not being a chemist, I did feel doubtful about getting Teflon powder to dissolve in lamp oil....

In another forum, there has been discussion about the use of PerFluoroPolyEther (PFPE) lubricant. Supply88 sell such a formulation. It is considerably more expensive than Protek CLP and Protek ProLube, however. But some have reported that it sometimes works better than Protek CLP.

I looked into making up a similar formulation (with generous help from Mark at Supply88) but found it impossible to obtain one of the needed chemicals, and in any case I think the result would be prohibitively expensive.

HOWEVER, I discovered that there is a UK supplier of PFPE lubricant (not PTFE) in aerosol cans. I obtained some, and have cautiously used it a few times, with good results.

I just used PFPE on a very stubborn set of (what appeared to be) Renner hammershanks (bushi gs of course). CLP did not work. PFPE worked much better, although not totally free as they should be.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

That's interesting, Peter, and reflects comments by Dale Erwin and others. PFPE lubricant doesn't work in absolutely every case, it seems, but sometimes it does get results when Protek CLP doesn't. And it seems to be safe for cloth, leather, wood etc.

Next time though I will use Chris Chernobieff's Ethyl Silly Nap. It will likely work even better. I had it in my bag but forgot about it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Peter, do let us know how Chris's Silly Nap works for you. Since I work on very few pianos and not for hire, I haven't gotten myself to buy the few quarts of chemicals to make his solution since I will likely ever only use a few ounces. But if it works as advertised, I may have to bite the bullet and head on down to Lowes.

Chris, do you think it would work as a bicycle chain lubricant? If so, that could tip the scale for me ;-)

Hey Emery,
It would be too thin in its current formulation as a bike chain lube. BTW, I believe teflon and silicone are roughly equal in slipperiness( maybe someone could verify), but i gave the nod to silicone because of its additional amazing property of travel. Literally, a little goes a long way!! The other solvents also have particularly favorable attributes. I noticed that when alcohol, acetone, lacquer thinner, mineral spirits, couldn't remove a stain Naptha would and gently. Ethyl acetate would remove waxy substances like makeup, and I noticed it had some effect on light cases of verdigris. I lucked out that the 3 mixed together and didn't explode (as i am not a chemist, just love to experiment though).

-chris

Oh, yes, you are right. Thanks for the correction. In another forum I read that Protek CLP contains fluorinated solvents. However, the msds on the German supplier's website must be completely wrong then because it says "98-100% isoalkanes" and I made the mistake to believe that information.
Wrong (?) Protek CLP Safety data sheet

...or is Protek CLP just a dispersion, not a solution?

Ich glaube, da hat entweder jemand geschlafen oder gepfuscht, oder im Schlimmstfall betrogen. Das deutsche Datenblatt kann so nicht stimmen. Ziemlich befremdlich, dass Meyne das so auf ihre Seite stellt.
(TGDR; Too German, Didn't Read: that German data sheet cannot be right.)

And no, CLP is not a dispersion, but a proper solution. The perfluoro-ingredients are precisely what make it so expensive. (Plus, I'm sure, a healthy mark-up.)

I still have a partial bottle of center pin lubricant that I got room Ford piano supply in NYC. It's pure silicone. Some of you old timers may remember Ford. I met him at a convention in North Carolina many years. He was teaching a class that amounted to stories about his experirnces with pianos. He was quite a story teller.

Me too, if the same.
"Center Pin Lubricant with Super Silicone"

And just in case anyone reading is not thoroughly familiar with the properties of silicone:

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER put it ANYWHERE that it might creep into a pinblock or other area that requires friction to operate properly.

We need to remember that this is a public forum in which readers from all forms of life and inexperience and impulsivity read and draw conclusions that may not accord with best practices.

Silicone is a "double-edged sword" that if used carefully in limited ways can do good stuff, but if used indiscriminately can create disaster situations.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Or get it onto the case if any refinishing is in the cards. Silicone would cause adhesion problems with any paint or varnish I suspect.