I don't know if this is possible, but if it is, I was thinking it would helpful to know some advice on what music topics/skills lend themselves to being more easily learned while being self taught versus identifying topics/skills that are more suited to learning while taking lessons. I am currently approx at a late elementary - early intermediate level. I may be entering the self taught phase for a while and wonder what skills are more suited to self taught versus what skills are best left to lessons.

For example, it believe I can do a fairly decent job learning the notes of the staff on my own.

Thanks.

Any music theory can easily be self-taught. A book I recommend is Alfred's Essentials in Music Theory. It comes in 3 volumes, so you can decide where you'd come in (or you can buy all 3 in one book).

You may also be able to do scales, chords and arpeggios, at least get the basics. As long as you have the correct fingering, that can be self-taught as well (I believe there are several books that show the fingerings for all key signatures).

Choosing repertoire may be a little harder at your level. I would say that you should choose music that looks like it is something you can play. There's nothign wrong with stretching yourself a bit, as long as it's not too far from what you are capable of doing now. The only proble is that wehn self-teaching, you may develop some bad habits or get stuck, and frustration will set in. If at all possible, try and find a teacher who would be willing to let you "check in" every once in a while, say, once a month or so if regular weekly lessons aren't possible for you. They can at least keep you on the right track.

I agree that theory can be easily taught without instruction. Pieces can be memorized and fingering can be worked out.

However, I disagree with the idea that technique is a good thing to try on your own. You will be able to memorize notes and fingerings, but that is only one part of technique. If you are serious about learning the piano, then tone production is the goal of technique, and this is frustratingly difficult to learn...even with a professional instructor.

If you are not serious about learning the piano, then just have fun with music, nothing wrong with that.

If it is a financial issue, then really zero in on the theory, and listen listen listen to good pianists untill you are in the place where music can be a priority.

I tried to teach myself 8 years ago, for about 4 years...and I was disciplined. When I got fed up and began taking lessons, I had moments every lesson where something completely clicked, and I could not imagine how I managed without this new information. I learned more in one year than the previous 4.

Don't set up any barriers for yourself. Get a teacher(preferably registered) If you don't you'll never know what you may have been capable of!!

Norwegianforest wants to fly ... bravo!

Knowing how highly individual each and every pianist measures up to the formal teaching regimen ... it is a brave and exciting stage to throw off the apron-strings and take responsibility to "go it alone".

In everybody’s secret heart is a wish to master a keyboard favourite ... why not use the bountiful help of the Forum to attain this goal.

All this teacher-taught, self-taught stuff. I really don't get it. I had one of the best teachers around and still learned most things myself. Teaching is one side of a process. Learning the other. A teacher presents the material (leads the horse to water). The student learns the material. Any student who waits to be lead won't get far. Any teacher who does not self-teach themselves (ha,ha) is a poor teacher.

Teacher, student, who's who? I know it's very 70's, but we're all in the same boat.

Is someone who takes advice from Piano World still a self learner? Is someone who uses a book? Is someone who uses a textbook in school one?

Or sadly, is it just financial?

anything can be self-taught, so does the piano playing, because there're plenty of resources you can use to do just that: internet, youtube, books (theory/technique/music) and anything. the only hard things left are self-discipline and follow through, and the only thing that one who self-taught cannot get is 'feedback' or 'judging yourself' part, even with aid of video/audio recording, because one cannot always tell a certain technique is good or bad unless watched by a professional.

i had self-taught before, and would do it again if i have to, but in the mean time i treasure my teacher greatly for his advices and help.

As this is the "Piano Teacher's Forum," it's not very likely that teachers are going to line up and tell you to learn the piano on your own. However, it is true that it is the student who does the learning, not the teacher. Of course, there is lots for you to study on your own. You can start learning about musical history, and the history of the times when composers lived. You can start learning music theory. There are numerous texts available, written at easily understandable levels. You can learn about musical forms and nationalistic forms. You can learn music aurally, that is, by listening to recordings, so that you become acquainted with different styles (we used to call this music appreciation when it was taught in elementary and secondary school).

What about self-teaching an instrument? Of course, it's possible. How do you think we got to where we are today? But why on earth would you want to reinvent the wheel, when it's so much easier to learn piano with the help of a qualified teacher? Chopin and Liszt developed very advanced playing techniques, but they based it on a very solid foundation, which they learned from their teachers. When you self-teach from scratch, you have to learn what Bach and Scarlatti learned, then add to it what Mozart, Beethoven and others added to it, then discover what Chopin and Liszt added to it. In the end, it's a decision you have to make - Do you want to become a top notch player in a reasonable amount of time, or do you want to spend your entire life trying to rediscover what's already been learned?

Forgive me for finding the foregoing diatribe just so much flagrant piano teacher propaganda.

It is high-handed subterfuge to lace the pro-teacher argument with a Bach/Chopin potted history... when the nitty-gritty aim of every young hopeful is a secret wish ... to freely play keyboard favourites independent of frills or apron-strings .

Teachers conveniently hide the fact that the inherited antiquated notation never allows this to happen ... with the rare exception of the few with freak aural memories (concert pianist material) ... by comparison 99.9% of us are reduced to laboured sight-reading ... hours of endless practice to come close to mastering a keyboard favourite ... but this we can do at home ... and perhaps reach out in a supportive emergency to the Forum.

If only piano teachers could guarantee a full and rich keyboard life to their students after they’ve done with them ... but in making a
living at $40 a lesson ... why spill the beans?

Sorry chaps ... stirring!

John, btb is right. If only I could find a teacher who could hand me down Mozart, Bach, Chopin I'd travel half the world. To paraphrase btb - it's taking advantage of the youngster's innocence offering such things (Jack and the Beanstalk?).

$40 a lesson? I charge $60!

I'm a senior in high school, and I've done both, flown solo and studied with teachers. On the whole, they're right. I can tell you three of my teachers were absolutely useless and not worth studying with, and that's why I don't study with them anymore. My first teacher seemed to think I would have to stay with her if I wanted to continue study, but she found out that you might want to try assigning interesting pieces before your student leaves. My current teacher serves a couple of purposes: 1) She gets me into competitions, and she puts her students in two recitals a year. It is ALWAYS preferable to have a performance and a deadline to really streamline your practice. Also, she is helping me to prepare, finacially and music-wise, a senior recital before I go to college. 2) I am responsible to her every week, even if it's one of those hectic ones where life seems to be whirling around you. Yeah, everyone says it's easy to get yourself to do something, even something you love, but it's not. Read about all the novelists out there who love to write but find themselves procrastinating. Of course, like us, when they find themselves stretched for time, they devote all their free time to writing, as we do to practicing. 3) My teacher guides me into keeping up a varied repertoire. I can say I would be able to do it, but I know after a year by myself all the pieces I could play well would probably be by Debussy. 4)This is not a reason I stay, but I'll tell you I've been playing for ten years, and without the foundation that I got in the beginning, I would have gotten nowhere. Maybe you can drop a teacher by the time you can play Fur Elise, let's say, but before then someone's got to show you where to put your hands, and someone's got to really show you the difference between piano and forte, and you need that feedback.

So, if you can't afford a teacher, I'm sorry. I basically played on my own. I kept up in the jazz band at school, so there was always something to practice. I just played whatever I could get my hands on, chorus music, the few pieces I owned at the time. You can do it, but as a student I would say teachers aren't just advertising, they do play an important role in your studies. They know what they're talking about. As for what everyone else is talking about, I wouldn't bother with history. Yeah, it's nice, I took the course and I loved it. But no matter how history goes, if you simply put pieces in a chronological order, like Bach->Beethoven->Chopin, etc. you can see how technique and style developed over the years and that's all you'll really need. Theory is wonderful to me, but I'm a composer and a singer. Are you going into these too? Scales you should study, be sure to get the correct fingerings for all of them, major, harmonic minor, melodic minor. Make sure you have a metronome (I know I probably don't need to point that out). And do your best. Read widely. If there's anything you're not sure about, it's your job to find out about it. You don't have a teacher to get you that kind of info. As always, the decision comes back to you. I don't know how much you like that, sometimes I hate to make decisions. But everything's in your hands now.

I hope you have the best of success. In the end, the music reigns supreme, whether the musician is self-taught or had a teacher. Focus on the music, and you'll be heading in the right direction.

2008, an ideal teacher will also practice their art. Liszt famously gave up practicing but I kinda get his point. For the rest of us mortals...

Hi klutz,

At today’s conversion rate of R7.24 to the Dollar ... your fat $60.00 piano lesson fee would be equivalent to a Pretoria R434.40 ... and imagining standing in your plutocratic shoes ... working on 10 lessons per day and 20 working days per month ... with 20 students that would haul an annual income of R208,512.00 ... enough here to buy a brand new BMW ... and a tankful of petrol if Bush doesn’t invade Iran.

But don’t you think you might be charging too much ?... I know that you have risen in posh society ... to become Her Majesty’s Royal Musician at Buckingham Palace ... what’s the grub like at the Palace?

btb, I used to charge 50 bucks an hour but a mature student insisted, as she'd just got a raise, in paying 60. I gave the extra 10 back but she insisted.

Any established teacher in London who thinks a lot of themselves charges at least $90. I charge less than 60 for a friend's kids.

I just gave my Golf GTI away. I had to choose between an extra pupil or losing the car. I'm very selfish with my time.

btb, why do you insist that teaching is a racket? Most teachers I know have the student's best interests at heart, and don't get rich off of teaching. I charge $18/half hour lesson. I teach my students improvisation, composition, theory, sight-reading, and while giving them repertoire to help them progress, I always try to find at least one piece they will enjoy working on at any given time.

You obviously have been burned, and so it is probably best that you study alone. I studied alone for 10 years until I realized that I was stuck, and then returned to lessons. No one can learn everything from one source/teacher, and so I expect that all of my students will move on at some point, and that is fine. No one is held captive at my studio through guilt trips or any other manipulative techniques. I only want students who want to be here.

Even if you think that I charge too much, you must understand that your calculations are off. You do not consider how expensive it is to live in certain places. If the cost of living is a lot higher, then prices in general are higher. The average median income for women in my area is $24,303. On a good year I'm lucky if I make $20,000, and that includes playing/singing for weddings, accompanying vocal competitions, accompanying at churches, etc. I'm not complaining, but I am pointing out that you cannot compare apples to oranges. It costs more to live in large cities. Students drop out over the summer, cutting one's income down by 1/3. Students graduate and go off to college. There are so many factors that are taken into consideration. I know of no piano or voice teacher who can afford to drive fancy cars on their income. We do it becuase we love it. Are there bad teachers out there? Sure. But don't lump the good in with the bad.

For most teachers it is a racket.

Do you know most teachers to make such a statement with any accuracy? I would think not. The best you can say it most teachers you know are or aren't something. And most teachers I know, as I stated before, have their student's best interests at heart, and continue to learn and try different songs to keep their interest, refer them to another teacher when they've done all they can with a student, and encourage their students so that they can enjoy the process of learning.

In the United States, that would mean an annual income of just under $30,000. After taxes, that leaves $20,000. Enough to by a nice Honda Civic, provided you don't eat and live in a box for a year.

Somebody must be doing something right in piano teaching, because many of us have students who have been with us for a long time. I have 3 with 7 years, and 2 with 5 years that have continued in study with me although we moved last October. It is a longer driving time one way than most of us would put up with for piano lessons, the distance is only 7 - 9 miles, but on roads that become gridlocked during commuter time a one way trip can be 30 - 45 minutes, which affects anything after 3 PM weekdays. I did lose 2 students during the past winter because of the traffic and weather conditions.

My students pay my rates faithfully - paying for a quarter, half year, or year in advance has been the "norm" over the years in my previous location. Is this a sign of "disgruntled" clients?

I am rebuilding my piano studio and hope to have the same statistics at this location.

I would wish for everyone who teaches with integrity and has given value to their students to not think of the mockery some here would like to make of our chosen career. I find some of this detestable when generally assigned to all teachers.

When you find a music teacher not to your liking, you vote with your feet, any bad mouth applies only to your own bad experiences, and does not transfer to those of us who are held in esteem by our clients and our peers. It is specific between you and the teacher you are talking about.

We don't earn the money you think we do, as expenses for business operation and maintenance, and music activities and supplies take a chunk, as do taxes and putting money away for our retirement. It is not a walk in the park. I think most of us manage our money with careful consideration.

It seems to come down that most of the ranters think it's about money. It's about love of music, dedication, hard work, and forgiving those who trespass on our reputations without knowing us. I know an insult when I hear one, and they are being passed out wildly today. If what I am saying here today is insulting to you, so be it.

I am not trying to depend those who are poorly prepared for piano teaching, or unorganized, or not giving much for the money spent, or just plain detached, dull, cold, or sour in their demeanor.

"Great Students Deserve Great Teachers!"

Betty Patnude

Are you sure they're not taking a sneeky look in their pocket books much of the time?

A "sneeky look"? Where did that come from? By racket, it is usually a term meaning that the person is a con artist. Making promises and not delivering with the intention to be fraudulent. Taking a "sneeky look" has nothing to do with it. Many people of all professions are concerned about monetary issues, putting food on the table, roof over their head, etc. And yet it's piano teachers who are singled out as somehow racketeering? And all this coming from a teacher. Perhaps it is more a reflection on oneself than anything else, since you do not offer lessons for free. :rolleyes:

Have you ever heard: "My lessons are free, it's my time you are paying for"?

I must object to the insufferable, irrascible, provoking comments being made here. It is offensive to me.

In your small little corner of the world, are you part of the solution or part of the problem?
My small little domain is my sanctuary, what is yours to you?

Are you equally capable of giving a sincere compliment as much as you can supply scathing criticism?

Betty Patnude

I could settle for a Honda Civic ... Kreisler.

My beef with piano teachers is that they don't deliver the prime goods ... as earlier stated

"the nitty-gritty aim of every young hopeful is a secret wish ... to freely play keyboard favourites independent of frills or apron-strings."

Please forgive the sharp return to the battle at Yorktown ... at no time could I ever suggest that piano teachers were money-grubbing con-artists .. but talking frankly ... they can be terribly, terribly "nice" ... and in the isolation of their
well-meant piano lessons tend to lose the plot .. the whole object of the exercise should be to graduate fully capable, enthusiastic and confident students.

btb said:

"...the whole object of the exercise should be to graduate fully capable, enthusiastic and confident students."

I can very much agree with that, btb.

Betty

btb, whole heartedly agree. There seems to be some raw nerves out there. The music profession has always, since time immemorial, had it's share of charlatans.

Morodienne, remember the road to heck is paved....

I am self taught in almost everything I play. I also teach. But, I know what I am capable of and what I am not capable of. I am extremely honest with my students and parents about my expectations and capabilities. I keep my fees low based on my level of training and inform my students that I am a stepping point for the next level of their training. I do not presume to tell my students that I can make them into a Mozart or any other prodigy. I am always prepared to pass my students along to the next level, which is always a requirement for learning new aspects of the field.
Most extremely professional teachers would never take on a beginner student anyway,unless they showed extreme promise! My main goal in teaching music is to instill a strong love of the arts, whether it be music, art, dance or theater that my students choose to go on to as their main goal. Most students are diverse in their studies and ultimately end up doing something else. I do not care what they choose. The arts are all relative and one hand helps the other. The reason for doing any kind of music is for enjoyment and self expression. So long as my students develop a passion for music, I know that they will have everything they need for continuing through the boring part of drills, theory or history.
Because they have a passion for it and strong desire to learn!!!
We can't direct the wind we can only adjust the sails and harness it's power.

On another subject. I would like to know a general opinion from most people about piano's stored in houses by the ocean. How does this affect their long term playability? If the piano does not hold a tune for more than a year does it mean there is slipping in the tunning pegs based on the constant moisture, bad strings or could something be wrong with the sound board?? How do you tell when something is wrong with the soundboard? I would have to assume it has something to do with the way that it resonates & aplifies? I previously owned a

You neglected to quote the rest of what I said in the same sentence: "...and continue to learn and try different songs to keep their interest, refer them to another teacher when they've done all they can with a student, and encourage their students so that they can enjoy the process of learning." Which qaulifies that it is not only best of intentions, but they also do whatever they care capable of to follow through on those intentions. Please try to keep things in context when you quote.

On another subject. I would like to know a general opinion from most people about piano's stored in houses by the ocean. How does this affect their long term playability? If the piano does not hold a tune for more than a year does it mean there is slipping in the tunning pegs based on the constant moisture, bad strings or could something be wrong with the sound board?? How do you tell when something is wrong with the soundboard? I would have to assume it has something to do with the way that it resonates & aplifies? I previously owned a wonderful upright that was completely rebuilt. It was an exciting learning experience to watch. But, I would never want to have to pay for all that work just to have a cheap piano! I am currently looking at a Koler & Campbell baby grand 20+ years in the situation I stated above and don't want to waste my time if it will need a complete overhaul can you help? P.S. My teaching salary would never allow me to purchase a Steinway or any good piano brand new so I have to resort to cheap ones or throw aways! Ah, what I wouldn't give for my old rebuilt one!It had wonderful sound and action and was so easy on the hands!

arpeggio: it all depends on the humidity fluctuation. I would just be careful that you try to keep humidity constant. I use a damp-chaser drying bar on my grand and a room humidifier in the winter when needed. Still, I do need to have the piano tuned 6 months to a year. I'm very sensitive to when my piano is out of tune, so perhaps I'm picky. But I've heard once a year is common.

To find out if something is wrong with the soundboard, all you need ot do is look at it. It shoudn't have cracks, but if it does it may not be the end of the world. My current pianos both have cracks, but they are minor and don't affect the sound, and really, an old piano is bound to have some.

What's your budget? I would recommend buying a refurbished Yamaha. They are very inexpensive, and if you keep the humidity under control, you'll be very happy with them. I paid about $7k for my 6' grand.

Keyboardklutz:

Definition of Charlatan: Imposter, Fake, Fraud, Swindler, Con Artist, Quack, Counterfeit, Pretender, Sham.

Which musicians or piano teachers are we talking about here - since "time immemorial"?

We can disagree with philosophies and interpretations of music and be polite about it, but to go as far as you have in "charlatan" causes a reaction in me.

Exactly under what conditions do you label someone a charlatan? And, who gets to label charlatans...a court of law? If we were to find a charlatan, what would our recourse be?

Betty

Keyboardklutz
Good thing this is not Gary Indiana in the era of the Music Man. We all would have been tarred and feathered! LOL!!

Arp, on this point you may well be correct. But it is just these teachers, the best, that beginners SHOULD have.

Hi klutz,
Fond memories of a 4 year post-graduate sojourn in London has me envying your ability at this time of year to sit on a bench overlooking
the Thames ... preferably with a good view of the newly built Globe Theatre ... and eating fish-and-chips ... in my day they wrapped the tasty goods in newspaper.

But don’t you think we should cool our heels regarding the merits of piano teachers ... before we get sent to Coventry by our US chap-esses.

You are quite right in holding your ground ... that bright young piano aspirants deserve top qualified teachers.

Things seem to have started being taken personally, which is a shame. No one is pointing fingers. All that all of us want is a concert pianist on every corner.

London is still a great place to live.

I don’t think there are many people capable of learning an instrument by themselves, especially if we are talking about learning from scratch with no previous experience. A good teacher does so much more than simply suggest repertoire or even show you how to play something. If you teach yourself, what do you do when you get stuck? How do you know you are getting it right? A teacher will provide feedback which is an essential part of the process. It may be true that the student does the learning by way of practice between lessons. Nothing motivates more than having that lesson each week to prepare for. Without it most people will put the practice off until another day.

I find this suggestion that we deliberately withhold secrets in order to string people along and keep them paying laughable. Last term I said goodbye to a couple of fantastic students who reached an advanced level and are going away to college. Yes, I was sad to see them go but pleased that they achieved what they did. I have new students ready to take their place next week. With a lengthy waiting list it makes no sense for me to string anyone along.

As for the cost of lessons, my hourly fee is neither high nor low. I feel it is very reasonable for one to one tuition with a qualified professional. If I charged too much I would not get enough business. I am not rich by any means, in fact I would say that my annual wage is very average but I enjoy what I do and love working for myself and the freedom that it gives me. I can think of plenty of other things we pay for that offer far less value for money. Last month I took my humble ford focus for a service. I paid £150 for what was no more than a couple of hours work. Later, I found out that work was carried out by a 17 year old trainee who forgot to refit the oil cap!

i would think that if a student, after 5-7 years with a teacher, still cannot live without his/her teacher, then something is very wrong there. by that time, i'd assume the student should be good enough to learn and play on his/her own. it's really sad that a teacher cannot make their students independent enough to leave them some day, which should happen.

btb and keyboardklutz,

So what and where is Coventry?

Some of your "US chap-esses" do take issue with the poking about "charlatans".

It feels like a "witch hunt" to me, and the place that is so famous here in the US in the early formation of our country, was Salem, Massachusetts, where witches were burned at stake.

"Coolin' our heels" is a good idea for all of us who participate in that kind of confrontation.

Betty

Sigma said: "i would think that if a student, after 5-7 years with a teacher, still cannot live without his/her teacher, then something is very wrong there. by that time, i'd assume the student should be good enough to learn and play on his/her own. it's really sad that a teacher cannot make their students independent enough to leave them some day, which should happen."

Independance for our students is a joy for all of us!

That is not the situation you describe here, and I assume you are talking about me since the numbers 3 and 5 came up.

My students are independent and have been since their first year, they keep making progress into new music, and can prepare their way well. We don't spend much time in making corrections of their pieces, we work on analysis for form and difficulty areas together, and then on expression-interpretations and memory. they follow my instructions well, I don't have to deal with problematic students. It's understood they are welcome here is they are willing to do the work.

They stay with me because we are not only increasing their level of music continuously but we are also widening it.

Two of my students "want" to be music teachers, these two take joy in everything they approach, they also practice diligently and faithfully.

In fact, the younger one (11) prepared 2 pieces from "New England Suite" on her own (her mother's music) and played without error at her lesson Monday.

The older girl (14) was discussing what she wants to do new in September and not only had some valid suggestions, but said, she was starting on her Christmas music soon, as she wanted to have a big program to play this year for our community performances.

These kids are enterprising, responsible, and excited about their music. Since they have stayed so long already, I think I will have to coax them out the door when it's time for another teacher to take over....but, we are not there yet.

Besides, both girls "love" me, as do most of my students, and I "love" them, too. Don't misapply the word "love" please.

I have good relationships with my students because I think students do better with their piano teachers if they feel they can trust them, confide in them, and be real with them. We have to at least like each other and be willing to work together. It really cuts through the "crap" and "pretenses" quickly.

Betty

Coventry is a trades union practice.

With respect Betty,
It is when you ask a question like “where is Coventry” ... that some of us across the Pond hold up our hands in sheer amazement at US ignorance spilling over into superior arrogance ... that apparent indifference to what touches the lives of the rest of the world ... excuse the generalisation .

The idiom “being sent to Coventry” means “to ostracize, to refuse to talk to”. It would be a pity, as pointed out by klutz, if whatever is debated is taken personally to cause rancour.

My link with Coventry is particularly poignant ... imagine being fortunate as a newly graduated architect to be part of the team to prepare working drawings for the new Coventry Cathedral designed by Sir Basil Spence.

In World War II Hitler’s invasion plans were blunted by the heroic deeds of the defending young Spitfire pilots ... out of sheer malice ... the Nazis (under Goering) used the Luftwaffe to flatten the total city of Coventry ... amongst others gutting the 13th century Cathedral (even links to Lady Godiva).

“Its beauty was reduced to ruins in one air raid during the night of Thursday, 14th November, 1940. Coventry suffered on that night the first and the longest air-raid of any one night on any British city during the 1939-1945 war.”

Here’s a picture of all that was left of the Cathedral after the raid ... what touches the lives of one of us ... touches all.

web page

btb, I don't suppose you worked in the GLC's architect dept in the 50's?

klutz,
If GLC is Greater London Council ... no ... Basil Spence was one of 5 private architectural firms
who put up with me.

It's just that my block of flats (from the 50's) was one of their cheaper takes on Le Corbusier.

Well, in Betty's defense, I, too, did not understand the reference to Coventry. I knew it was a town, but you cannot expect everyone to understand idioms that are particular to a region of the world. We have our own here that perhaps you would not know or understand, but I wouldn't hold it against you and call you ignorant and arrogant as a result. Perhaps that is the difference between you and me.

Can't fault your Great Gates and Tempest ... both
on my piano at the moment.

The music teachers I've met have almost without exception sincerely tried their hardest. They vary widely in teaching ability, personality, etc., obviously. But I haven't met any that are taking the money without an attempt to provide value in return.

There is possibly another side to it though.

The phenomenon of students who take lessons for many years and never learn to play is not apocryphal. It appears to be more common than we would like to admit.

Given dedicated teachers, and students who at least make an attempt to do some practice, it seems reasonable to ask why this should be true.

UK? Just a 'region of the world'? And there was I thinking we had some punch above culturally.

Why is this true?

Now who is taking offense at every turn? I consider the US a region of the world as well. Same with Uruguay. I know, it may be tough for you to accept that you're not the center of the universe :p

I don't know. That's why I asked. But it does seem to be true, and it seems to be mostly true for piano as opposed to other instruments.

I have some theories.
1. Perhaps piano is intrinsically harder to play (yes I know, we wish it were impossible)

2. Perhaps it is the fact that most people take piano lessons without ever intending to perform. The closet practicer is unique to piano.

3. Perhaps it is that pianists practice disconnected from time more than others.

TimR:
I do nto think it is unique to piano. I also teach voice, and every once in a while I'll get a student who says they wish to sing, and yet they do not practice, do not make attempts to do as I say, and do not perform. I generally think that students like this are very insecure, so much so that they are afraid to even practice. Their desire to get better and their passion for music must override their initial fear of making noise and possibly sounding bad. I think that for some people, they may not be emotionally ready to study an instrument (the exact same thing happened to me when I had my first voice lesson at the age of 15, even though I had by then had 10 years of piano, I was extremely intimidated by voice lessons. I loved singing, however, and by the time I was in college, I was able to take lessons).

Another factor may be that the teacher/student combination is not right. With so many personalities out there, it's a very real possibility that there may be some "oil and water" combinations in this relationship, in whcih case, any kind of progress may be very difficult (though not impossible). Those ar emy thoughts on it, anyways.

I could just about go with that one changed to - It's the most counter-intuitive instrument to play. That's where teacher/student paradigms lie.

btb Quote: "But don’t you think we should cool our heels regarding the merits of piano teachers ... before we get sent to Coventry by our US chap-esses."

btb Quote: "The idiom “being sent to Coventry” means “to ostracize, to refuse to talk to”.

btb Quote: "It would be a pity, as pointed out by klutz, if whatever is debated is taken personally to cause rancour."

Your mention of "Coventry" when I was reading seemed to me to be a reference to a place where one would receive an unpleasant experience or bad outcome. I wanted to understand your message, and did not know about "Coventry" - therefore the question. "Where is Coventry?"

About being taken personally to cause rancour: You said it, not me. To me, piano teachers are frequently being josted, and recipients of tongue in cheek references from people having superior and arrogant attitudes who give "stop the music" putdowns to us on Piano World Forum.

I understand this is your style, and I sometimes detect you as being being witty, well read, and chiding. It is not always received negatively.

Now, if you can take my words less than personally, and not have rancour with me, you will prove to me it is possible to read and not be jolted by what you are reading. I still get jolted when something is very pointed or unkind or seems to be mocking.

I can understand the devastating wartime experiences you have had in England. The picture says a million words effectively as does your story.

This is not the word perfect response here, but I would very much like to be able to post here myself without receiving what are (to me, and not just by you) provoking comments being made toward piano teachers at any given opportunity.)

I, of course, need to not respond to every comment that comes my way, and ultimately, I have the choice of not to participate at all.

Your "merits" of piano (US chap-resses) teachers tends to be disparaging.

Betty

I'm sorry, I just got to reading what this thread has become now, and I am, along with all the other teachers here, highly offended at being called a racketeer and a fraud.

When it comes to recital or competition time, I routinely offer my students the equivalent of two lessons a week for one month, at no extra charge.

I always give more time than what is paid for.

I go above and beyond the call of the baseline piano teacher. I buy music for my students. I violate copyright by letting them copy my editions - sometimes multiple editions, for comparing reasons. I call and remind them when they have lessons, if I've canceled or they've had a long break. I share with my students snippets of my personal life and listen to them when they have problems. If there comes a day when a student's repertoire becomes more difficult than mine, we have a personality clash, a disagreement in ideas, I will refer that student to a teacher better suited for him or just tell him to self-study for a while. All because I have a passion for teaching and I want to impart my love for music - in all forms! - to my students, when music in America has taken such a turn for the worse.

How dare the people on this thread make such terrible accusations.

Re: the original topic, I think theory is a good subject to study on one's own, though when you have questions who can you ask? I've said it before and I've said it again: I think a teacher is good for laying the foundation of piano. Once you've learned how to read notes, understand rhythms, count, all those basics, you are free to fly off and try things solo.

Pretty much any endeavor in life can be learned with or without a teacher. The reason teachers and schools appear in most fields of learning is they make it easier and faster for the student to learn. Anyone who has self taught themselves a skill via books, internet research, trial and error, etc., will likely relate to this … it can certainly be done, but it generally does take longer to learn … sometimes much longer … also, you can end up learning some things incorrectly.

Re calling all piano teachers frauds … this is plain silly. There are good and bad teachers, engineers, construction workers, etc. in any field. Why label the industry?

rightly so.

We have long since dumped mention of piano teachers being frauds ... we know that they try to do their best ... the real issue at hand is
whether NorwegianForest has been given sufficient
sight-reading skill to go it on her own.

but....

(and please don't anyone take this personally)

Congratulations klutz,
Our "stirring" has pushed this thread to an
impressive 50+ ... how I would like to have you over for a cold beer ... or a whisky and soda ...
whatever your pleasure ... "name your poison" ...
I'm a brandy and soda man.

poison?

If I stir a little, is there a budwieser in your fridge?

Back again. I just had to comment on this. I took approximately 3 lessons in piano/voice as a child and had to give it up as my single mom could not afford it and decide to focus mainly on my voice (due to my extreme interest from a very early age & advice she got from other people). I have always been drawn to the piano and had one ever since I was a child.

Self teaching is extremely hard especially if no one else in your family plays. I learned from the following:
I took the 3 days of lessons at 6-7yrs old in which I learned scales and crossovers as well as some left hand sight reading, which just confused me and applied it to the main methods below:

1.)experimenting (which every young child is good at)
2.)flute lessons (good for learning treble clef)
3.)a guitar chord sheet which helped me learn all the bass chords, but not how to read bass clef in high school. I finally figured out bass clef through an old song book I found with one hand written note above a G which said B and realized that bass clef is transposed from treble by essentially two whole steps. So that g becomes b, b becomes D, D becomes F and so forth.
4.) I listened to a lot of music so that I can pick things up by ear to play.
5.)finally after about 13 years worth of chorus,musicals, talent competitions, professional voice and sight singing lessons (with an incredible voice teacher and careful observation of her husband an accomplished pianist as well as other professional pianists from the local area professional scene(Some from the B.S.O. and radio gigs). I was a truly able to read and play well.

By the time I got out of high school I could play most choral, Broadway and pop songs. I was not able to play very hard classical pieces, which I dreamed of playing. I took one laughable semester of piano in college from a teacher who taught a group of beginning students, (which I was not) how to play moonlight sonata (the easy version). I learned a lot more by reading a used text/score book, which covered the subject of fingering position, which was extremely helpful.

I stopped playing for a while after my first child was born, but started teaching a year after. Now I have been teaching music and voice for 10 years.
My playing is at an all time high and I have even started finally writing down some of the pieces I composed starting from high school to now.

Summary:So as you can see self taught can be done with a lot of hard work and practice, but look how much time it took! I often wonder had I had the resources available to me what I could have accomplished sooner in this field. Thank god I had the drive and passion,(Some would say obsession)to keep going. By all means re-invent the wheel, but why if you can afford to buy one? And yes I did have a few teachers in band and school chorus who did their personal best, but could have been better. So I do feel that children should get the best from the beginning,if only it truly could be that way for every hungry starved musician in the world. However, in the meantime there are still a few of us who are so hungry would take the scraps off of anyone's table.

Unique, no, but I think somewhat more prevalent on piano.

It may be a chicken and egg thing. Since it is more acceptable to be a closet pianist, we keep people who are not successful that would have dropped most other instruments.

But I think part of the learning process is inhibited by the "private hobby" mindset.

I am new to piano but have played in community bands and sung in church choirs all my life (I'm 55). When I came to these forums and realized there are a lot of people who take lessons, practice, and own quality instruments but never ever intend to play for any other person I had a hard time wrapping my mind around it. That was an alien concept that I've only slowly accepted. Trombone players join a band. Then they realize they'll do better if they get some lessons and practice more efficiently. There has never been a case of a hobby trombone player who played only for himself, as far as I know.

I think practice with the intent to perform focuses the learning process more efficiently than practice with the intent to become good. We've had that discussion on other threads.

Musicians who play together make much greater gains than your 'private hobbyist'. To mention a few - sightreading (you CAN'T stop), imitation (suiting YOUR phrasing to others' (is there a word for that?)) and learning to play as a wind/string/voice (REAL legato).

Saying all that, for centuries the keyboard has been the musician's calculator for those that have been interested in exploring and studying the theoretical aspects. Also much piano music (esp 17th and 18th century) is written for private study. Public performance is a fairly recent phenomenon - last 200 years - previous to which it was certainly NOT a gentil activity.

So - you pays your money and takes your choice (I never force students to perform).

I did not mean the term "private hobbyist" to be disparaging, I just couldn't think of a better name for the "solitary searcher" at the moment. Of course something doesn't have to be practical or relevant to be worth doing.

Sightreading is not the only thing that benefits from playing in strict time. The forced randomization and the synchronization improves all learning. Pianists are often focused on slow practice, which theoretically could still be done in strict time, but most commonly gets disconnected from time. Guitar players, even beginners, do a lot of practicing with others or with CDs or the radio. They are forced to play in tempo even if they miss notes. Piano players get all the notes but miss the tempo. So when you hear beginner pianists you hear the halting hesitations very reminiscent of a stutterer, whereas beginning guitarists miss some chords but get the gist of the song.

Almost all guitar players will play along in public very quickly, and only a minority of pianists ever have the nerve to do so, and i think it is largely the practice in time that makes the difference.

At least, that's my theory today. Tomorrow could be different, I guess. Off to practice - with a metronome!!!

Group piano has always been a part of piano playing. We've really emphasized solo piano, and I am really sad to see that, because since the piano's been invented there have been piano duets, trios, music for 8 hands. If I could get myself a second piano in the place I hold my recitals I'd have my students do 8 hand pieces.

Our version of a band are our duets and trios. I've recently bought some duet books that have primo and secundo parts appropriate for the same level students, ie they do the duet, not the teacher and student. I'm very excited to get my students to work together! Partially because they get to learn how to count off and look at each other for cues, but also because I don't have to do so much work once I get the ball rolling. Heh.

I've been to a student concert where they used a digital piano + grand piano for 8 hands. Worked fine.

The question is, keyboardklutz, where exactly am I going to get a comparable digital piano? Hmm.

arpeggio4

Most extremely professional teachers would never take on a beginner student anyway,unless they showed extreme promise! That's not true at all -- I love to teach beginners. (and I am a very well-trained, qualified, and professional piano teacher). Good foundations are VERY important. Unless the subsequent teachers want to spend months (sometimes years) undoing the inadequate teaching of a student's previous teacher! (which happens all too often). More often than not, students with inadequate beginning instruction lack the dedication to work hard enough to correct bad habits and fill in the cracks of a weak foundation -- these students end up quitting and never reaching their potential. Its quite a shame.

sorry for the late response!

Minaku, I sometimes practice on my Yamaha P60. It only cost $1000 new and fits in a car easily. I wouldn't be surprised if one of your students had something similar.

kritta:
I agree wholeheartedly! Sometimes I just cringe when I hear transfer students play for me, especially at the intermediate and above levels. It's frustrating, because there are issues stemming from not learning to count out loud while playing, resulting in an inability to figure out rhythms and keep a steady beat. Also I find other issues such as their reading is inefficient, or they have collapsing joints in their fingers and other technical problems. All of these things can be corrected easily in the elementary levels of playing, but is so much harder to correct after 3 years of doing it incorrectly!

Such drama on the piano teacher's forum!!! Isn't keyboardklutz a teacher? What do his/her accusations say about him/herself? Why would anyone say such things about their own chosen field? If you see a problem, don't just complain about it -- change it!

As Minaku was, I also was very outraged when I saw the degradation of the profession that I love and have dedicated my life to (accepting the many trade-offs --such as financial affluence-- to do a job that I am passionate about). But then I thought -- who the heck cares what people who would say those things feel about my profession? I am a great teacher, and am constantly striving to become better in every way possible. My students and colleagues know how to recognize quality in myself and in other good teachers -- and those are the only opinions that would matter even a little to me. At the end of the day, I only need to do my best to measure up to the high standard that I have set for myself. This standard is born out of a passion for music and for the advancement of quality musical instruction, and is most assuredly shared by fellow music teachers of good quality.

That's a strange logic there kritta. Who else would know better about the piano teaching profession than a piano teacher? And since when are they disallowed from commenting on the efficacy within this trade? And what can be done to improve it?

Don't say join a professional association. They seem to let anybody in. In my previous job as a teacher I HAD to have both a degree and post-grad. Our 'profession' seems open to anyone who hangs a sign outside their door!

Boy, am I in trouble now!

You might just be tripping over top-heavy qualifications klutz ... and falling right into the jolly old "rancour" frying pan.

Forgive me if it is suggested that qualifications don’t make a quality piano teacher ... in my experience at university level ... most of the Doctorate staff tend to hide in a dusty niche behind a dull speciality ... boring!!

But then it is equally true at the other end of the scale ... that many chap-esses get into the business through a passing interest in picking up the location of notes on a stave ... and after working up a spare repertoire ... find themselves ahead of the game ... and are influenced at first to offer piano advice and later daringly teach ... (“put a sign over the door”.)

The result is the push-through piano teacher ... the one who teaches the so-called "basics" ... which anyone can pick up over a week-end ... and
cosily retain pupils within the limits of their well-meaning competency .

Scrubbing round all the do-gooders ... who boringly quote snippets of teaching lore and gush about how they love their job ... how do we raise the standard of teaching?

IMHO this will only occur when schools regard musical literacy as equally critically important to human survival as that of literature .

Hope you are fully aware that “I’m all right Jack!!”... nothing personal.

A professional association with certain stringent requirements should be a must. My ONE BIG BEEF is poise (for want of a better word) at the keyboard. I've lost count of the number of master classes I've attended where nearly every grad student had ridiculous amounts of tension - obviously aquired in their early years. I've also lost count of the number of pianists who tell me neither they nor their students have tension only to see obvious problems even before their hands get to the keyboard.

In my perfect piano world this would be addressed. Other aspects, which are also often badly taught, can be addressed later if need be but poise YOU BECOME STUCK WITH. Poor teachers LITERALLY (and I mean LITERALLY) damage people.

As you say btb, there seems to be little difference on either end of the scale .

Excuse me for playing the devil’s advocate klutz,

But how can you possibly relate your beef to grad students’ masterclass POISE ... based on the giveaway trait of “ridiculous amounts of tension” ... and summarize by putting the shortfall at the doors of poor teachers.

Yours is a fascinating take of an all too familiar scenario ... but IMHO wide of the mark ... the performance of grad students is naturally tense because of having to rely on trying to sight-read an inscrutable notation system ... it is common cause that if they were sure of the notes (in spite of endless hours of hard practice) ... confidence would evaporate tension.

Can’t blame the teachers ... or the students ... for this weakness ... has anybody really
looked at how outdated our format of keyboard notation in the Computer Age?

btb,

Why do all the great people in their respective positions have teachers, coaches, mentors and systematic practice routines (built by others) if going it alone is the quickest path to mastery?

If you are on to a revelation why waste it in the small cosmos of the piano teacher?

I could not agree more about the importance of music literacy. I must say I am surprised by this quote. If you feel that music literacy is critical then why do you continue to rubbish it? Congratulations on the design of Coventry Cathedral though, it is an impressive building.

I now understand what keyboardklutz means about those unqualified and unskilled teachers who feel that giving piano lessons is a better option to stacking shelves. I do know a few of these in my area and it makes the lives of serious professionals more difficult. IMO it is very dangerous to send your child for piano lessons without thoroughly checking the teacher out first. There is no law to stop anyone from charging for private tuition and I for one think there should be.

I do find the talk about independence a bit ironic. Often, those who choose to learn by themselves are the least independent. Take these online programs which offer to teach piano for example. I looked at one mentioned in this forum recently. It consists of a video showing you how to play a song. The idea seems to be that you just copy the guy in the video. There is no explanation of theory or technique and obviously no feedback if you just don't get it. If you ever learn that particular song you have no knowledge of how to learn anything else. Where is the independence in that?

Someone said that you should be independent after about 5 years. Well, are our students not independent from the start? If they spend an hour a week with us then they spend 167 hours a week without us. During this time they have to get on with it by themselves. To be honest, if after several years you can't play anything without the help of your teacher then you don't really want to play the piano anyway. Those with the desire to play will develop independence naturally. This doesn't mean that they can't still benefit from lessons with a good teacher. I have played for nearly 30 years and am fully independent but I know I could still learn from the right teachers. You would be quite arrogant to think you had nothing more to learn and if this were the case lessons would be a waste of your money.

Self taught all the way for me, playing self taught for 3 years from scratch, and take a look for yourself


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-4lxr6yoJU


thank you.

Ardley, you misspelled remember really bad.

Is that video a joke, satire, or for real?

Are you trying to say you're happy with being self taught for 3 years?

Going it alone is the quickest path to mastery? Really? Are you serious?

Ardley, I don't think the you tube video you selected shows the best of your playing. Before being too harsh I would say that anyone else should use your 'Listen to my music' link.

There are lots of good things about your playing. I love your enthusiasm and it is clear that you spend a lot of time at the piano and enjoy what you do. You have a good ear for harmony to say that you have had no training and your technique seems to work well for the music you play. However, all of your improvisations sound the same after a while. They contain some nice ideas but seem to degenerate into a cacophony of fast and loud chords and arpeggios.

If I could offer some constructive criticism, you need to think of ways to structure your compositions and give them a sense of direction. You say that you do not listen to other music which I think is a shame. If you listened to a broad range of piano music you would see some similarities between some of what you do and the great composers. In your playing I could hear some Beethoven, Rachmaninov, Bartok and stravinsky. Do some listening, it doesn't mean that you have to copy anyone else and I am sure your music will retain its individuality.

I would also encourage you to learn to read music. I know you are happy as you are at the moment but I can't help feeling that you will become frustrated in the future. I see so many adults who play quite well by ear but regret not learning about notation when they were younger. You mention keys on your website and I am sure you would find the theoretical side of music interesting and useful.

You have a great deal of potential. Imagine what you could achieve with the right guidance. Try not to play on the fact that you have never had a lesson. People will be impressed on the surface but I believe you can do better than this.

Sorry ardley, your wrists are sticking up and your elbow is stiff. This isn't your fault. If you had a teacher it would be their's. If you had a good teacher your wrists and elbows would be fine and there would be much more 'flow' in your music. Thanks for sharing that. Too many on this forum are all talk and no show. Thanks again.

btb, you'll be pleased to know this was also Padereski's view. The tension I'm referring to though, is the tension the student's been allowed to hold whilst practicing.

Here's the simple test. Say 'freeze' to your student while they are playing. Keep them frozen while you ask them if they are comfortable in that position. Are they holding anything? They shouldn't be - apart from backbone and biceps.

Keyboardklutz,

Trying your "freeze!" I came abruptly about from a comfort zone of reading the forum and my entire being tensed and held tightly to the stance as to me it is a word of alarm and danger. And, I held my breath, and my ears perked up to listen acutely, and my stomach lurched.

There's got to be a better word to use for people like me. Like "float!" or "disengage" then I can stop and hold the position lightly as you are suggesting.

Piano playing, to me, is a constant dimension of in and out of just enough tension and relaxation.

How are you on Alexander Technique?

Betty

I also have a dark past as a drama teacher. Freeze is one of our tools.

I know plenty about Alexander and have read F Mathias Alexander not to mention Dr Barlow. I've been unimpressed by a singing teacher's session on me and don't agree that manipulation by others is helpful in the long run. I've also read and had Feldenkreis and Grindea. I had a private Tia Chi teacher (a doctor from Biejing) for a few years and have always done yoga (last 25 years). I can really recommend yoga - the real secret is that it's about balance - stretch is secondary.

Betty, you and your pupils need to see and more importantly feel the poor position they habitually hold BEFORE they adjust to non-tension. That's why freeze must be sudden.

Dear Teachers, No wonder there is so much trash in music these days. Where is the respect that all of you piano teachers deserve? I wonder the age-maturity backing some of these ignorant remarks? Sandy B

Keyboardklutz,

I'm just saying that for me "freezing" was very uncomfortable. I am constantly trying to work on removing stress from my life, and one of the most important tools is for me to watch my mental response to things and to employ deep abdominal breathing. I am normally a shallow breather. Does breathing enter into what you are telling us about in removing tension? Is it the first place to start?

Are there other ways to see this "bad" position you are talking about. I am doubting that a beginning student can learn this, I feel they have to approach the piano as they are, and over time - quite a bit of time - we are continuously learning how to operate this student's body conscious thought.

Just yesterday, an 11 year old boy came for an interview, and the first things I noticed were his tensions, and strange placement of hands at the piano while we were doing some prechart music and getting oriented to the keyboard - we had to address posture and poise. He is a give-his-all soccer player and his large muscles are well developed. His back was aching from a game the night before, and it showed on him.

His dad is a bear of a man in physique and graceful in movement. I'm expecting that the boy is going to grow quickly and share his fathers frame.

This was something we gave a lot of attention to - which is not usually among the things I address at the interview. (I demonstrate what it is like to have a lesson - communication - content - and response of the student).

So, I am a little concerned about how he is going to feel about what we need to do (kinesthesiology)and his response to it.

I also showed keyboard choreography to him (chromatic Mirrored D in contrary motion) which worked fine - I wanted to give him an idea that he could approach the piano and do something that feels and sounds "spectacular" at the first lesson.

His discomfort may make him feel limited in the beginning - it was a very tactile experience for him, but his visual and aural faculties were in place also. He seemed to enjoy it as he fully cooperated and could do the things we talked about, but his body was giving him some problems in the attempt.

I would like to know more about your quote "you and your pupils need to see and more importantly feel the poor position they habitually hold BEFORE they adjust to non-tension."

You were helpful to my granddaughter (and others) recently with the "scratch" idea, and she went on to learn "New England Suite" by Catherine Rollin (I think)by herself and played it (2 of 3 pieces) for me last week just beautifully. Her doublejointedness was minimal, and the sound and appearance of her hands on the keyboard were noticable improved. I think the scratch really calls attention to their touch and the sound combination as well as the tension problems it reduces.

Always learning!

Betty

I also applaud you for your confidence in giving this for us to see, but I would caution you to not brag about "being self-taught" In fact, you do not even need to say it, everyone knows from listening.

It's not bad music, but it's only a start. I am sure that many people say you play really well, and I am definitely impressed with your ability to communicate despite your admittedly poor hand positions. I just always had the feeling that you were saying the only thing that you knew how to say on the piano. I was interested for a little while, but then I wanted to hear something different in texture. If you do not want to take lessons, that's great, but listen listen listen (especially to yourself)and I would love to hear what you could do when you can say precisely what you want to say at the piano.(not just fall into the groove that you happened to fall into)

Keep up the good work, and enjoy the journey

Chris H,

My understanding of being literate is being able to read and write.

When did you last come across anybody (including yourself) who could perform any piece of keyboard music off-the-cuff ... and out of sheer joie de vivre compose a minuet by teatime.

We have all been given the tools to record our daily journal ... or write a sonnet ... and yet ... why can’t we (the man in the street) do the same with music?

Sir Paul McCartney can’t read music ... and has to rely on others to clothe his haunting guitar melody “Yesterday”... how he wished he could sight-read music ... do we write him off as a Beatle-brain ? ... as a callow youth who didn’t apply himself ... as unmusical, untalented,
lacking the guidance of a good mentor, inartistic ... we could go on ... if we can’t blame the Knight or mentor for the shortfall ... WHO?

Wonder if Sir Paul does yoga.

That is also my understanding of being literate.

Most people I know can sight read some keyboard music off the cuff. It depends on their ability doesn't it? If that music is at an appropriate level then they can sight read it. I know that you mean taking the most difficult repertoire and trying to sight read it. In this case the music may be beyond your technique and understanding. It's not quite the same as reading literature as you have to convert the notation instantly into music on your chosen instrument. It is this process that pianists have problems with rather than understanding the notation.

I think composition plays an important role as well. Too many pianists do not write music which is a mistake. Learning to write music will speed up your comprehension of it no end. I could compose a minuet by teatime. The results would be similar to me composing a sonnet. I doubt it would be that good as the creative side of composition was never my strong point. Getting the notation on paper would not be a problem though.

I quite agree. The reason is that the man on the street was never given the tools to read or write music.

This is not a witch-hunt Chris H,

with Spring in the Pretoria air ... I’ve just included in my daily journal "There is a heady smell of jasmine in the air" ... I am fortunate to have banks of flowering jasmine covering stone walls ... the haunt of the bibbing tiny malachite Sunbird .

Literacy gave me tongue to wax eloquent ... right off the top of my head ... my eternal thanks go to my first school teacher at the age of 6 who put me on the path to eventually savouring “Hamlet” and “David Copperfield” .

Why can’t piano teachers provide the same bountiful legacy?

betty, the freeze technique is to help a student who has developed tension but is unaware of it. A beginner, as long as he/she is carefully directed, won't have this problem. I've never had to do it with students I have taught from scratch.

It's also a handy technique to analyze a student's pedaling. If you 'freeze' them straight after a bad pedal (ask them to freeze with foot down), you and your student have all the time in the world to listen to the effect just brought about.

That is what most of us try to do.

The sun is shining here also. I can sit in my music room overlooking the garden and reach for any book on the shelf to play whatever takes my fancy. I owe this in part to the wonderful teachers I have had over the years. It's also down to the amount of time I have invested in playing and practicing the piano. You owe your literacy skills to all the books you have read throughout your life.

I know what you are saying and I agree with you on quite a few points. Music literacy should be available to everyone. The way many people teach it (if at all) is not always satisfactory. I just think you are barking up the wrong tree in blaming the notation itself. I can't read or write in any language other than English. This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with other languages. It is simply that I have not been exposed to them and have not spent the time with them.

We also have the same sun here in Nova Scotia (I'm on holiday).

Sadly, the problem ultimately comes down to the lack of respect for music-as-art in our society. There was a time it was valued as part of a well-rounded education. Now it's mostly considered a commercial enterprise. Still - the Tao that has respect is not the real Tao.

ChrisH,

You give thanks to wonderful teachers over the years ... but add the personal effort made ... "the amount of time invested in playing and practising the piano."

Other than my first school teacher who put me on the path to book literacy ... there was no need for further teachers to get me started ... one year at school and the doors were magically opened to the infinite library of literature masterpieces ... at the cost of a brand new Mercedes most piano students never progress in five years of weekly lessons to more than a meagre repertoire of hackneyed keyboard works ... not a good return on outlay!

I wish I could buy a shiny Mercedes for my first school teacher... how incredibly beholden we are to those who gave us the skill to read a book and write a poem.

btb, learning to read is not learning to comprehend - your first school teacher could have told you that.

The obsession with Mercedes automobiles is curious.

Your right about the hackneyed keyboard works.

klutz,
Hope you’ve got your feet up at Halifax enjoying a cold Budweizer in your patch of holiday sunshine ... the Merc happens to be our familiar
coin of tender ... I still drive my trusty old Ford ... the point I was trying to make was that once literate (within a year) ... I made my separate reading way without the need or cost of a teacher ... fantastic what you can do on your laptop ... continue talking this drivel at the other end of the world ... cheers!!

Moi aussi but not always with enough comprehension (not that many schoolteachers had much to share).

I think Jonny Cochran has got a vacancy for you klutz ... I rest my case!! ... pass a beer over.

and my local pub for you!

btb, that beer must have clouded your memory. You did not learn to read in a year. Over here English is a core subject in our schools. All children study English for several hours each week up to the age of 16. On top of this, almost every other subject involves the use of the English language. Then, every time you speak you are practicing converting the language into sound. This is why you can't compare the two. The poor piano student might practice for 30 mins a day. Very little of this time is spent reading new material. Actually, teaching someone to understand the pitch and duration of notes on the stave can be done in a day, let alone a year. Unfortunately, as we all know, this does not mean you can play the piano. You would like to see a notation system which enables a novice to play the most advanced works at sight. Well, it doesn't exist and never will.

You make it sound as though England schools have suddenly become aware of the importance of literacy and have adopted a revised strategy to boost language skills.

Having been fortunate to have enjoyed the best of English model school tuition ... I am quite sure that the Victorian competitive tenet of "Devil take the hindmost" still holds good in schools today ... why change a winning game plan?

Teachers have the responsibility of presenting the school curriculum in context ... but it is up to the students to burn the midnight oil and acquire an ever widening vocabulary to remain competitive ... we don’t need to memorize or practice our vocabulary ... once registered ... the new word, it’s meaning and spelling ... become pigeon-holed in the mind for instant recapture ... the same can’t be said for keyboard music without constant refreshing practice.

That's because playing keyboard music requires physical dexterity and coordination. Reading does not. The refreshing practice you mention has little to do with the ability to read the music.

A musician does not need to memorise or practice recognising notes on the stave. Those who say they can't sight read are perfectly capable of working out what the notes are on the score, they just lack the skill of translating the notation into music. To prove a point, I play the piano extremely well and can read music fluently. However, if you asked me to sight read 'twinkle twinkle little star' on the flute I could not do it. The fault does not lie with the notation.

You have the perception that it is more difficult to play keyboard music because of physical dexterity and coordination ... IMHO it is far more
difficult to read and write ... the difference is mental dexterity and coordination ... we advance
our skills over a lifetime ... but peter out with
our fragmented piano playing skills.

You say "I play the piano extremely well and can
read music fluently" ... but can you sight-read a fresh piece of music (my choice) and play fluently?

Dependent on the difficulty of the music, yes. Some people are better sightreaders than the rest. I know my own ability can take me to intermediate-advanced level, at an acceptable tempo. I have friends who read music far better than I and can sightread most anything. I once asked him to sightread some Rachmaninoff Etude-tableaux he'd never seen before and he read them all at tempo, with barely any missed notes. My facility in sightreading only increases with my familiarity of the style of music.

I think you are mistaken, btb, but I think it is your background that makes you talk this way. You claim that when we learn a new vocabulary word it is automatically registered and we are able to recall it without fail. This is false. Like anything else, we must practice and continually refresh our knowledge so that it does not go away. The memory store is not a warehouse where things are catalogued, and, once retrieved, need only a dusting before they are usable again. Rather, it is more like a toybox. Knowledge and memories are the toys you take out every day to play with. The more you take them out, the more they end up on top of the pile - easier to access.

I recall learning words, but when I see them again years later I can only infer what they mean through context, though once I knew the exact definition. Without proper practice and refreshing even our language skills grow weak. Ask yourself why the educated are more apt at picking up new concepts, especially vocabulary, than the non-educated, or those who stopped their education. They are practiced at the process of committing something to memory and refreshing it, and even then without active reminders of how to use it, and what to use it in, this knowledge fades, often within hours. Give me enough time and I can dig up some published psychological papers for you - or we can politely ask our resident psychology professor to chime in.

Looking back on your posts I do not think you and Chris are in disagreement, but somehow you continue to stand and deliver posts that, to me, smack of indifference and belligerence. By all means, make your point, but when there is nothing really to argue, do not continue the argument or throw in a straw man for our debating pleasure.

Sir Edward Elgar is often referred to as being "self taught" but has his parents owned a Music Shop in the City of Worcester, England, I find it hard to believe he didn't get just a little help along the way. Although, it could have been that, at the time, anyone taught outside of one of the Royal Music establishments was considered "self taught".

Here's just one of a few Websites trying to explain the origins of the term "...sent to Coventry".

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cov1.htm

Hi Chris,
The new kid on the block doesn't think we're in disagreement ... we'll have to do something about that ... without a difference of opinion this whole show would go to pot ... so there you have it ... the stung novice openly admits to sub par sight-reading, tends to forget words, and likes to dictate how we go about our business ... it's just not cricket you know Chris! ... by the way ... had you noticed that India have clawed their way back to 2-3 against England in the current ODI cricket series? ... if India can level at the Oval on Wednesday ... the prospect of a grand finale at Lords on Saturday will be a humdinger ... wish I had a posh members seat ... and with it the rare chance to cast an eye
over wondrous past records in the Long Room.

Hi redcoat,
Your non de plume is a dead giveaway of a true-blue Brit. Thanks for the Coventry stories going back to 1647 ... and self-trained Sir Edward Elgar in his father’s music shop at Worcester ... my favourite English composer ... you haven’t got any spare tickets to Lords have you?

originally posted by btb:
Sorry btb, I don't follow cricket, we never win and I'm a bad loser.

We most certainly are in disagreement!

However, I am going to leave it now as this thread is way off topic.

Until the next time.

I suppose I just must be a 'way off topic' kinda guy.

We were kicking around the topic ... "self-taught or teacher" ... and redcoat threw into the mix the hugely interesting notion that Sir Edward Elgar (born in 1857 at Broadheath ... some 3 miles nw of Worcester UK) was self-taught ... redcoat doesn’t credit this amazing possibility largely because he had discovered that Elgar hadn’t attended any recognized Music Schools ... and as such, in the posh society of the time ... might well have been written off as a poor cousin ... just as well his musical acumen in formative years drove him to master a number of instruments.

How wrong we get things at times ... and to think that Elgar’s music has come down to us as arguably the most patriotic English music ever ...
... “Land of Hope and Glory” has us all saluting the flag ... while the “Enigma Variations” is a unique assemblage of seemingly fuddy-duddy (but hugely respected) friends ... brilliant English under-statement ... nothing like it.

So chaps ... there’s every indication that Sir Edward didn’t use a formal piano teacher at Worcester way back in 1967 ... wonder what piano teachers then charged for a half-hour lesson.

Elgar was not totally self taught on piano or violin but he himself says he was in composition. Though I 'm not much of a fan of his music, he is to be admired as having 'done good'.

If you'd like to attack me next by all means go ahead; I've been weathering my share lately. The fact that the only response you have to my argument is a dig at my abilities to remember and read - and you, sir, do a fine job of making it sound as if I'm really freakin' stupid - then I know who the idiot is around here.

Alas, we are not all superhuman, with IQs over 150 and minds like steel traps. Sometimes, I cannot remember where I put my car keys. I must really be slumming it in the intelligence department.

When I read it Chris said it wasn't notation that was the issue, it was practice and familiarity with the piano. btb then also said that without constant practice people forget how to play. Hmm. Lambast my reading comprehension if that is what went wrong. Leave the revisionist glasses off when reading my posts.

Ho, hum!

I was really enjoying my absence from the provoking minds (that is not a compliment) that egg us on until we revolt! So, here we go again. Minaku and Kritta and Betty...Chris and others have stood their opinions here.

Several of us "uniting" against the balderdash and circuitry of misusing our words again us and then tightening the knots. Our choices are to pound away, vote with our feet, or laugh until we get it out of our system. Each to his own.

I'm going to say this once: If I ever win the lottery - bigtime of course - I am coming knocking on each and every door of the friends I've made here, and the foes. We will either hug or "haggle". And, I challenge everyone to either playing duets of "Heart and Soul" or "Chopsticks". From there maybe we can get to the more serious music and intelligent discussion. Squelch the aggressiveness and clamor.

And, I will want to see Coventry.

Thank you RedHat for the link!

Betty

Does anyone know the origins of the term "Sarcasm is the lowest form of Wit"?

Could it be that Elgar lived before CDs and the internet, when necessity forced a more common level of musical skill? When most educated people would have played a little piano?

The current thread is about the current state of piano instruction, which traditionally has been heavily oriented towards mechanical acoustical instruments playing the music of white guys dead 200 years, with the ultimate goal to play with a symphony orchestra, which is a highly specialized and expensive organiztion dedicated to playing the music of dead white guys on specialized and expensive instruments. That's not intended to be critical, it is a worthy endeavor and has produced some stunning music, but...........

We should probably spend at least a little time wondering about the next 20 years, a time when the trend suggests digital pianos will supplant acoustic ones and symphony orchestras will disappear. And, not coincidentally, most current piano teachers will have retired.

The assumption that the current methods of piano instruction "work" may or may not be valid. The assumption they can survive unchanged into the near future is surely not valid.

Have to jump in here.

Ardely thanks for sharing... It sounded like how I played before I took lessons. Actually, I sounded more like Ravel.

Self Taught or Take Lessons?

Are teachers stealing your money?

I think some are.

I think a lot are not and have their students best interest at heart.

The thing is regarding lessons (and this is me speaking as a teacher,) is that the ability to play can be learned very quickly if taught correctly by a good teacher. And then less (teaching) is more. If that makes sense.

In other words, I don't believe in compulsory education. I believe in sharing knowledge. Now I suppose I am making money sharing my knowledge with others. When I teach I enjoy making music with my students, they do learn, they do love their lessons. And yes they are paying me. But heck, why not make money at what you love to do, especially if you are good at it. It beats working at a grocery store.

Most of the times the actual teaching part is easy. And it should be. This means your good. The other stuff like typing up calendars, bookkeeping, dealing with schedules, parents, recitals, etc... is the boring/work stuff, for sure. Wish I could just teach. If I wasn't teaching though I would be spending time composing. So that is why I expect to be paid, because it is my time that is being used so that others can learn, where I could be doing and learning something else for myself.

Simple as that.

I, as a student, enjoy feedback, constructive criticism and/or accolades or how perhaps I could do something better. The social is a wonderful thing too. Performing is fun and a good teacher has opportunities available for this to happen.

I am currently teaching myself voice. I need help with my vocal technique and am looking for a teacher. I cannot go on any longer without one. I need feedback to make sure I am doing things correctly. It will also be fun to touch base with a human being once in a while with a common interest in learning to sing.

Minaku,

Your "Alas, we are not all superhuman" hits the nail on the head .

But why apologise for sub-par sight-reading when NOBODY CAN DO ANY BETTER ... all 25,000 of us ... we're all in the same boat ... even Prof.Kreisler ... the years might help speed up the preparation period and performance mastery ... but each fresh piece of music involves the same laboured process (note identification, fingering, practice and memory).

It is my finding that everybody sadly carries a hyper-sensitive image of their limited sight-reading skill ... and secretly tries to avoid exposure ... but suffers an endless self-inflicted paranoia ... the tortured mind keeps alive the vain image of sight-reading perfection ... which is a myth.

Why suffer a warped figment of imagination ... your sight-reading is fine.

On the question of forgetting things ... join the club ... we all have minds like sieves ... this makes us uniquely individual ... it's as though our untidy minds enjoy the random placing of things ... my artistic work station suffers the
horror of some house-proud wanting to tidy the apparently haphazard order or things ... only dull coots like concert pianists, accountants, quantity surveyors and medical doctors (cramming for exams) cut corners with rare photographic memories ... to amaze us peasants ... if only the corner-cutters with their orderly pigeon-hole minds could occasionally let their hair down
and share the zany flair for living of us "Salt-of-the-earth" forget-ters ... now where have I left my keys?

My apologies if some of the debate seemed a bit robust ... but look how much marvellous territory we have covered with a dab of anti.

You're the one who was saying my reading was subpar. My reading is not the best but it suffices for what I need to do. If I were to become a concert pianist with a vast repertoire it'd need to be better. There are plenty of people out there who can read at a much higher level than I. Out of my limited pool of musical friends, the ones I went to school with, I can safely say that they all sightread better than I do. When a student asks that I sightread a Rachmaninoff concerto then I'll be in trouble.

Your image of me being pained by my sightreading isn't correct, unfortunately. And even the best of geniuses forget where they've put their keys, and have to put their underwear on one leg at a time. I'd say pants, but you can easily jump into your pants and put both legs on at the same time.

It's not the notation that's wrong. Sightreading involves the kinesthetic mechanism as well as the visual and the aural. My aural and visual are fine. It's my kinesthetics that can't keep up with the speed of my reading. I bet that's the same for a lot of other people out there. So, perhaps we should all learn to play piano blindfolded instead.

Now that I've ventured into the realm of the faintly ridiculous, I should leave the thread, since it's been derailed, gone through the underbrush, and fallen off the cliff.

Don't you think this is a bit of a generalisation? It is the kind of comment I would expect from someone who has either never had lessons or has had a bad experience with one teacher and given up on it.

The ultimate goal is not for every student to play classical music with a symphony orchestra. Most of the teachers here just want their students to get as much enjoyment out of learning the piano as possible. Yes, our methods need constant revision and that is usually what happens. I am always updating my resources and materials in order to suit the student of today. Although I do love much of the 200 year old dead guys music I can assure that that the majority of piano students are not restricted to it.

99% of piano teachers would not intend to rip anyone off. I just don't think that giving piano lessons is high up on the average hustlers list of ways to con people out of their savings. I could list so many things I pay for on a weekly basis which are far more of a rip off. Council tax, fuel bills, clothes, even food and drink. The difference is you are not forced to pay for piano lessons. If you feel they don't offer good value for money then don't take them. You would be in the minority based on the fact that I have to turn people away almost every week because I have no spaces. My customers are not stupid, if they did not think it was worth the money they would not come. I am sure this is the same with most of us teachers. If you really want to avoid being ripped off the simple solution is to go on recommendation.

I don't want to bang on too much about the digital/acoustic thing as it has been done to death elsewhere. Digital pianos are fine but they still have a very long way to go before replacing the acoustic. Go into the piano forum and read the words people use to describe the sound of their acoustic. Bright, vibrant, mellow, warm, rich, dark, colourful etc. These things will never be said about digitals. The best you can hope for is 'it sounds just like a real piano!'. Great if you don't have space for an acoustic but otherwise just a cheap imitation (although the better ones are far from cheap).

Must disagree there Chris! In light of my recent purchase I wished I'd thought of buying a clavichord years ago. For those who can't make noise or don't have the room, it's art at its best!

Couldn't you just use the clavichord setting on the digital? I hear it is just like the real thing. And......it doesn't even need tuning!

Well, you'll have to show me the bebung button.

Nice bit of batting there ... Chris old chap ...
you knocked klutz for a six or two.

It needs a young maverick like TimR to write off the "dead guys" and predict the end of the Symphony Orchestra ... to remind us of what
a golden age we have inherited ... but how do we counter the pervasive iconoclastic bleat of the rappers ... and make sure that all the doomsday predictions are total rot ... those of us who can empathise with the wonder of sitting in on the like of the International Tchaikovsky Competition ... won by van Cliburn in 1958 ... are already there ... but
has the CD taken away the marvel of attending a symphony concert.

I've responded in my time to jazz, swing, boogie woogie and the rest ... but nothing can match
the hush in the Festival Hall when Ashkinazy plays the opening measures of the Appassionata Sonata ... or cannons roar and bells peal in the 1812 Overture ... or the sun comes out in all it’s splendour at the close of the first movement of Debussy’s tone-poem “La Mer”... such moments of
heady rapture are reminders of some of mankind'ssuperlative creations.

Nearly as good as attending the ODI cricket test match on Saturday at Lords.

We saw off the Jitter-buggers didn't we? We're not all out for six yet.

You should have saved your money up for the new Yamaha multiclavier 2000 which allows you to switch between hammer, quill and tangent. It is all the keyboard you'll ever need.

You should have saved your money up for the new Yamaha multiclavier 2000 which allows you to switch between hammer, quill and tangent. It is all the keyboard you'll ever need!

But, does it have BEBUNG? I bet not.

Well, you may be speaking for your own sightreading ability, btb, and for your feelings about it, but you're not speaking for mine, or that of many many pianists I know.

Yes, it's next to the zither switch. You can also play it with a joystick for all those kids who feel the keyboard is a bit 'sad'.

Ha, those guys at Yamaha. Unbelievable. Next they'll have the keyboard play the music for you!

Don't you think this is a bit of a generalisation? It is the kind of comment I would expect from someone who has either never had lessons or has had a bad experience with one teacher and given up on it.

[/QUOTE]

Frankly I don't understand the hostility of the reaction.

My comments were in no way a criticism of current piano teachers. I confess to never having had a bad experience with any music teacher, though I've heard plenty of stories. The teachers I meet have been enthusiastic and trying to learn and maintain skills. Part of that is selection - aside from my children in school, which is luck of the draw, the music teachers I am likely to meet are on a gig with me.

Symphony orchestras. None make a profit, anywhere in the world, and it gets worse every year. All manage only with heavy subsidy, and one has to wonder about the long term future.

Digitals. You sniff at them. That suggests thinking that is somewhat close minded and rooted in the past. They have a place, and acoustics have a place, and we can't completely predict what either is, but I'll make a suggestion. Pianos will continue to survive forever as a niche instrument for those whose goal remains "to play the acoustic piano." Digitals will completely take over the market for those whose goal is "to make music."

I happen to really like Dixieland. To me it is the highest embodiment of species counterpoint, in real time! And dead, dead, dead, except for a few oldtimey cover bands. Music moves on.

England 48/2 in 10 overs ...

The big question should really be ... in having a whack at non- profit making Symphony Orchestras is ... what fields which touch our daily lives do run ... AT A PROFIT?

Governments has to subsidize pretty well everything ... army, police, space endeavours, agriculture, schools, health, gas, even airlines ... where does it end?

And yet some might quibble about helping our forum of peak musical endeavour (Orchestras) to share in a survival subsidy ....
but then youth must have it’s say ... we know that with the years ... they eventually grow up.

England going good on 67/2 ... Bell is socking it to them ... think I'll order a brandy and soda.

I teach in the inner-city. Do you want to tell me how subsidised Symphony Orchestras touch MY students lives daily?

My 2 cents regardless of who cares to hear it.

Regarding the previously posted Quote: Classical and symphony music is dying.

I think that in this fast paced world music is doing what it has always done reflected the time and people around it. People live for the fast pace (in my opinion die from the fast pace). The young energy in todays popular music stems from being straight laced and reserved all these years. It is an out cry for expression that suits each individuals needs.

But, like fast food and junk cereal people are slowly coming back to the organic way of doing things. There are lots of reasons for this. People who are getting sick younger are looking for ways to calm and soothe the soul. Taking yoga eating healthy and listening to music that calms the mind and the body,can do this. I believe that there will always be a modern music to express what is happening mainstream, yet still a place for the soul to feel refreshed in the beauty of classical.
For me classical is to nature as modern is to man and commercialism. Man may like to think he can do very nicely without bees and forests, but we all know what happens in the end without them. The balance would be upset and the world would be in chaos!

This being said I never said that self taught is best only that it can be done.

I also didn't mean to say that every extremely professional teacher would never take a beginning student. What I said was that most of the extremely busy conservatory teachers I know feel overbooked and limited in their ability to take on a new more experienced student, when they also take on a student that needs to be taught the earliest fundamentals.

I agree a student would be better off if they got the best teacher early on. Especially if that teacher has the time, patience and commitment to do so.

I my situation a conservatory teacher approached me to teach all of her beginning students, because she knew I was fantastic at teaching young students, was extremely patient,and had years of experience in doing it. She also knew the level of what I could teach.

I only hope that students don't give up trying to learn, because they can't afford lessons or the best teacher in town. Most parents want their child to try something first before they put out huge amounts of money for lessons. What's wrong with seeing if you like something before making a bigger investment.

Regarding the earlier quote: That some teachers are con-artists and overcharge.
Just out of curiosity what kinds of discounts and scholarships do you offer your students? I am sure there are lots of teachers here in this forum that have them and offer them so how can they be con artists. Also, how many of you have outreach programs with financial assistance from your local governments?