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Posted By: missbelle sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 02:49 AM
Had a new student (yay!) and wanted to explain steady beat. The tick of a clock has always been my go to. Child had never heard a clock that makes noise. All is digital!!
I improvised and used windshield wipers for my example. We also march and clap side to side. Fortunately, she could keep a steady beat.

But, that made me think-
with digital everything nowadays, what can you use instead of the tick tock of a clock?

(plus, some random phrase overheard may think you are supporting the app of a similar name with security and privacy issues, so maybe saying tick tock is no longer good anyway?)

Suggestions?

Thank you!
I have an analog clock (i.e. with hands) in my theatre lobby. There are a great many kids and even teenagers/twenty-somethings who look at that clock and then ask me what time it is.
Posted By: Nahum Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 03:45 AM
The rhythm must be felt. The Seiko BU 10 metronome supplement is suitable for this purpose.

[img] https://i.ibb.co/6BLqFvq/seiko-bu-10.jpg [/ img]
Posted By: BDB Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 04:37 AM
If they have a 3.0 G processor on their computer, they can count 25,000,000 cpu cycles to a quarter note if the quarter note equals 120! smile
Originally Posted by missbelle
Fortunately, she could keep a steady beat.

You are lucky. Many kids are rhythmically deficient.

Originally Posted by missbelle
Suggestions?

YouTube. Dance videos. There's a school in China where the principal dances with the entire school. It actually looks like fun.
Posted By: zonzi Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 09:52 AM
60 bpm on a mechanical metronome is the sound of a clock
Originally Posted by missbelle
Suggestions?
Let her work with her body. Get her to stamp her feet at a steady beat, to march at a steady beat. Teach her a simple waltz. It is easier for kids when the whole body is involved than when they only listen.
Posted By: Nahum Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 10:13 AM
The metronome sound contaminates and distorts the piano sound; the feeling of the beat of the metronome pulse with the whole body is not heard, but it creates a rhythmic resonance. I have tested this on myself and my students.
Posted By: TimR Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 12:54 PM
The sound of a mechanical metronome or mechanical clock is not quite even.

To my ears "tick" almost but not quite equals "tock."

If you look at how they work, the evenness of tempo is produced by the natural frequency of the escapement, either controlled by a pendulum or a spring-mass-damper system. The escapement moves back and forth, arresting the movement in both directions. However one direction is against the driving spring tension (or weight tension in the case of a grandfather clock) and the other direction is with it.
Posted By: malkin Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 01:03 PM
Have kids sit quietly and find their pulse in their carotid artery in their neck.
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by missbelle
Suggestions?
Let her work with her body. Get her to stamp her feet at a steady beat, to march at a steady beat. Teach her a simple waltz. It is easier for kids when the whole body is involved than when they only listen.


The internalization of rhythm is the premise of Dalcroze methodology. You can find a lot of information as well as exercises on the internet. I have taken some lessons from a Dalcroze instructor but I believe Peter has experience as well. I hope he will reply here.
I am familiar with the Dalcroze method. We marched and clapped, and that is how I determined young student can keep a steady beat.

However, I have never had a student say they had never heard a clock. I thought of train tracks- click clack click clack...but trains are nowhere near here.

Yes, I do the heartbeat thing, in explaining tempo. (running = fast, resting = slow, but ALWAYS steady)

Pulling out a new shiny (metronome app, or an old fashioned swing arm) would be a distraction for a young child. Yes, I will give mom info on metronomes. But, I was looking for a quick, hey, let's march/clap steady, let's tap steady, let's bounce lightly on the keys steady...like the ticking of a clock...and then there was silence and confusion. "Clocks do not make noise! What do you mean? My mom has a watch, her tracker, should I get that?"

What else, in this modern world, keeps a steady and audible beat, to use at the first lessons for a small child?
Posted By: TimR Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by zonzi
60 bpm on a mechanical metronome is the sound of a clock

With either mechanical or digital, 60 bpm (or 60 MM) gives you seconds, which is a great way to keep track of time doing exercises like planks. Remember to start your count at zero not one.
Posted By: Nahum Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by dogperson
The internalization of rhythm is the premise of Dalcroze methodology. You can find a lot of information as well as exercises on the internet. I have taken some lessons from a Dalcroze instructor but I believe Peter has experience as well. I hope he will reply here.
Do you remember what prompted Dalcroze to create his system? What he saw at the festivities in Algeria. How many years have I been mentioning here "The African Path of Rhythmic Education"? In groups from almost zero age ...
TimR,
I am not planking during a lesson.
No.
(I'm not planking ever, really! lol)
(btw, this intro lesson was over Zoom, and I had removed my face clock's batteries months ago because the computer was picking it up.)

I have mentioned in other posts, I think, that when I get parents to join in the marching and clapping, that they sometimes struggle themselves.
(Look up Elaine's dancing on Seinfeld)

So, if a parent cannot demonstrate an internalization of rhythm, how can they help their child keep a steady beat for home practice?

The parent may not even understand what is needed. "Fast and loud, sounds good to me!"

The ticking of a clock was an easy go to. Some parents have never seen a metronome. Apparently, many kids have never heard a ticking clock.
I guess windshield wipers are my go to now, and then the heartbeat.
Hi Missbelle, I misunderstood your question. Maybe the ticking of a turn signal in a car or on the bus? Techno music? A dripping tap?
Turn signal is good! That's the kind of suggestions I was seeking! Real world examples of steady beat, but outside of actual music.
Turn signal is good! That's the kind of suggestions I was seeking! Real world examples of steady beat, but outside of actual music.
Dishwasher, washing machine?
Posted By: Nahum Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Animisha
Dishwasher, washing machine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ThSi1wbqU&t=127s
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Animisha
Dishwasher, washing machine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ThSi1wbqU&t=127s

I wonder what the cost of diesel is these days.
Posted By: Nahum Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/09/20 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Animisha
Dishwasher, washing machine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ThSi1wbqU&t=127s

I wonder what the cost of diesel is these days.

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/driving-costs/fuel-prices
Posted By: malkin Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/10/20 12:35 AM
There must be a cell phone ring tone or timer alert that is rhythmic, since there are zillions of possibilities.
Other electronics - ceiling fan, air conditioning unit, food processor? The clicking of knitting needles in the hands of an experienced knitter? Jump rope?
Posted By: TimR Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/10/20 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by missbelle
TimR,
I am not planking during a lesson.
No.
(I'm not planking ever, really! lol)

I have never planked in a lesson.

I do plank during a practice session. Every 5-10 minutes I stand up and stretch some part of my body briefly, and one of those stretches is a plank. It is not good for the body to remain seated for long periods.
Posted By: malkin Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/11/20 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by TimR
I have never planked in a lesson.

Certainly not, but I have blanked more times than I would like to admit.
Interesting observation.

We have an old Braun travel alarm clock. I'll dig that out and put it on my desk.
Posted By: barc Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/13/20 06:44 AM
missbelle, I'd like to suggest the pendulum, ages old to be sure. I think children intuitively count a back and forth swing as 1 unit of time.
Or a bouncing a ping-pong ball up and down with a paddle. The upwards motion to the apex and back down to the paddle also counts as 1 unit of time.
I know some old folks still have large clocks hanging on the wall. I look at the time on my phone. And for counting beats I downloaded a metronome app. You can set it to different ticking sounds.
I have a metronome app.

But, with a curious young child, I did not want my smart phone to be,
"oh, cool, my mom has a smart phone, too! What kind do you have? What's that app? Wait, Iv'e never heard that word- met- ro-nome? what else does it do? Can it go faster? Louder? other sounds? Ooh, I see it can blink in color- I like green. Can it do green?"

I just wanted the real life example of a steady beat.

Thanks, though. I did find an app that shows a grandfather clock with a pendulum, and a moving and ticking 2nd hand. So, I can jut show that.

But, I prefer not to bring it outside materials at the beginning, especially, when, all times before, I could say "tick tock like a clock" and they would understand.
Even though I am certainly old enough to remember mechanical clocks, no-one ever explained the idea of steady beat to me in terms of a clock ticking.

In the few lessons I had as a kid my teacher just turned on the wooden metronome and there it was, that steady beat, faster or slower as needed. No explanations or comparisons offered.

And that’s exactly what my modern young teacher does 50 years later. I’ve never thought of it as a clock or felt any need to although my logical adult brain is obviously able to make the connection.
Posted By: barc Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/14/20 05:22 AM
I just want to quickly elaborate on what I wrote before. By "pendulum", I meant an arm's length of string and any kind of weight. You hold the string at a fixed point and let the weight swing. Shorter fixed lengths are quicker and vice versa. It's a simple setup and easily leads to questions about the physical world (given any curious young students). I.E. an intuition of gravity as a constant. Students don't actually need to know the maths ofc.

A grandfather clock does work with a pendulum, although as mentioned by someone else earlier, these analogue time devices aren't exactly seen much these days.

Best.
Posted By: TimR Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/14/20 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by missbelle
I just wanted the real life example of a steady beat.

But it's hard for me to know what the real life experience of a child is today.

I would have said a marching band in a parade playing Stars and Stripes forever. But while I've done that myself, I'm not sure one of today's children have seen a parade or heard a Sousa march.

Some years back I was asked to demonstrate instruments in preschool, and I thought nursery rhymes would be a good choice. Wrong! Those children did not recognize the nursery rhymes I grew up with.
A preschool demonstration in my area would have to be Star Wars, Harry Potter, Frozen, and Baby Shark! Maybe I'd also ask the teacher ahead of time for some songs they sing in the classroom, then only after "hooking" them on familiar tunes, bring in something classical.

I too wonder if children actually know (through life, culture) the songs that are sung to and with them by the Kodaly teachers or if it's only through the Kodaly teachers that the songs aren't being (artificially) kept alive.
Originally Posted by mostlystrings
A preschool demonstration in my area would have to be Star Wars, Harry Potter, Frozen, and Baby Shark! Maybe I'd also ask the teacher ahead of time for some songs they sing in the classroom, then only after "hooking" them on familiar tunes, bring in something classical.

I too wonder if children actually know (through life, culture) the songs that are sung to and with them by the Kodaly teachers or if it's only through the Kodaly teachers that the songs aren't being (artificially) kept alive.
Star Wars, of course, has classical music all over. I did a keyword search and came up with this at random:

https://www.classicalmpr.org/story/2015/10/20/star-wars-john-williams-influences

So with SW you've already brought in something classical.'

And the themes going with each character are in fact Leitmotivs, so you've got classical music theory in there. I wish I were the clever one, but I got this from a teacher in a small study group I'm in.
You're right! JW did ste- I mean borrow from the white European classical history. I suppose I meant expose the young minds to sources and examples predating contemporary film score. Yes, that could be its own study unit though, how the music supports the story, action, characterizations, motifs and variations, how the use of these evoke certain emotions and associations in the viewer, etc. Harmonic structure, instrumentation, textures, all could be further topics of exploration for older students. Baby Shark is a standard chord progression and my students have used it for chord study and improvisation. For preschoolers, a few lines of the SW Main Theme, beginning of the Imperial March/DV theme, Hedwig's Theme, etc. would suffice!
Posted By: TimR Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 09/15/20 12:23 AM
Well, Rossini and Wagner made a very comfortable living writing for Warner Brothers cartoons, something I grew up with, but again probably not within the experience of today's children.
Small update-

the double difficulty was this is a young student, and , it was over Zoom.

We like to look at the other person's room setting.

Even in person, when I show my "old" metronome, or my modern one, or even one on my smart phone, it takes a few seconds away.

And, having taught in a music classroom (Boomwhackers for Star Wars is great for a stage performance) has shown me that there are still kids who have never heard of "The Force."
Unless I WANT to tap and clap and march to Baby Shark, I am not going to mention that.

saying, "tick tock like a clock" was an easy go to for side to side clapping and marching.

The good update-

I now visibly snap or clap side to side myself, extra pronounced, like a windshiled wiper, over the camera, while I am beginning to talk about the song. My speech becomes more like iambic pentameter (ok, maybe not) but. am more careful to speak in a rhythm.

Student copied me well when I asked them to. (Had to define the word "echo")

After a couple of lessons, I showed the app of the ticking grandfather clock with a pendulum and student mentioned grandmother's clock on vacation. Since we had now built some time, she knew not to go off on a tangent about grandma, as she might have done in the first or second lesson.

Anyway, windshield wipers for the win. And the metronome, eventually. And an app of a ticking clock. And demonstrating clapping and marching.

Bad update-
still all over Zoom. ugh
Posted By: MH1963 Re: sound of a clock- students no longer know - 10/16/20 02:46 AM
I like the windshield wiper comparison because they have different speeds, which may be helpful.
For beat, even the books I use mention heartbeat, but some kids are still not aware of that at age 4-6 years.

Most young children are visually stimulated, so seeing a clock or windshield wipers is beneficial.

The side to side cross across the body clapping is quite good for brain development. Keeping a steady beat in the feet is harder than you think, while the hands work on rhythm.
Originally Posted by missbelle
For beat, even the books I use mention heartbeat, but some kids are still not aware of that at age 4-6 years.

Most young children are visually stimulated, so seeing a clock or windshield wipers is beneficial.

The side to side cross across the body clapping is quite good for brain development. Keeping a steady beat in the feet is harder than you think, while the hands work on rhythm.
I saw my grandchild doing Baby Shark when she was two years old. The arms are opened wide - one up, one down - and clap together like a giant shark mouth - to the cue of the song. There's your windshield wipers. The song is quite rhythmic. (Since the kids seem to have this song as their staple).
The way I do side to side clapping I learned in pedgogy classes in college- (the Duckworth Method??)

crossing the midline is good for body and brain connectivity.

Keep the beat (quarter notes) in the feet.
The hands begin with side to side quarters, matching the feet. ONE ONE ONE ONE

Next, intro the half note. This is clap (hold) clap (hold). as you cross the midline, you still tap the foot, but literally hold the clap to the next side. Say "half-note nalf-note"

Next up, 4 march steps, and one held clap- "WHOLE-note-hold-it"

Eighth notes are "two eights two eights" with one foot march/step per two claps. "ONE and TWO and". "TWO 8s TWO 8s"

so it lines up as thus- (L R is for which foot)

L R L R
1 1 1 1 (4 quarters)

L R L R
1-2 1-2 (two half notes)

L R L R
1-2-3-4 (one whole note)

L R L R (ARGH< not getting it to line up right on the computer screen)
2 8s 2 8s 2 8s 2 8s (8 8th notes)


most fun is the dotted half note- I often hold off on this one until we get to waltz tempo/teaching time signatures
and invite the parent to dance with their child.

L R L R L R
1- 2- 3- 1- 2 -3- (two half-note-dots). HALF-note-dot HALF-note-dot. (CLAP-hold-hold CLAP-hold-hold)

I'll save Baby Shark for fun moments and application. Nothing much cuter that a two year old grandchild!!
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