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3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism

Posted By: Nahum

3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 05:39 AM


https://bulletproofmusician.com/three-different-types-of-practice-strategies-which-one-works-best/

All these and similar tips are shooting past students at retirement age. Is required development of area of geronto- pianism !
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum

https://bulletproofmusician.com/three-different-types-of-practice-strategies-which-one-works-best/

All these and similar tips are shooting past students at retirement age. Is required development of area of geronto- pianism !


I read the article. It seems rather limited in terms of practising strategies, tbh. What I didn't get is the "shooting past students in retirement age" comment. What do you mean?
Posted By: Groove On

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:38 AM

Personally I agree with his conclusions and I think the practical advice we students normally hear, line up with his conclusions.

1. Block practice seems to be more effective for learning new material.
(a.k.a. - go slow, be mindful, be accurate, and repeat)

2. Learner-adapted practice seems effective for rounding out a large set of material.
(a.k.a. - focus on the hardest/difficult parts, move through the easy material quickly)

3 Random practice seems more effective for sewing it all up and tying up the loose ends.
(a.k.a. - interleaved practice, come at it from different angles)

I like the way he showed that managing piano practice is more like calculus than algebra; not a simple plug and play equation but an equation with multiple changing variables to account for..



Re: Gerontology
I'm not sure it's particularly aimed at an ageing student. Could be effective for younger students as well.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
What I didn't get is the "shooting past students in retirement age" comment. What do you mean?
The piano technique has existed for over 400 years, has been developed by more than any other musical instrument, and has historically been used and continues to be used by many tens of millions of teachers. However, the whole methodology was built and is still aimed primarily at educating children from the age of 5; teenagers; and "adult" students - we usually have after military service, i.e. at the age of 24- 35 years. Students of retirement age never was not taken into account ; what refers to group statistical studies and, as a result, to the choice of training strategies . I know that not everyone is pleased to read about it; however, while I am alive, I have touched and will touch on this topic.
Posted By: Animisha

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
The piano technique has existed for over 400 years, has been developed by more than any other musical instrument, and has historically been used and continues to be used by many tens of millions of teachers. However, the whole methodology was built and is still aimed primarily at educating children from the age of 5; teenagers; and "adult" students - we usually have after military service, i.e. at the age of 24- 35 years. Students of retirement age never was not taken into account ; what refers to group statistical studies and, as a result, to the choice of training strategies . I know that not everyone is pleased to read about it; however, while I am alive, I have touched and will touch on this topic.

Very interesting point Nahum. Do you have any ideas about how geronto-pianism could or should differ from child/young adult pianism?

Also, evidence like this is always tricky, and not only because of the generalization from taking shots in basketball to learning to play the piano, which is a rather big one, but also because all results are on group level. There maybe individuals who learn better with an approach that is not the most effective for the group as a whole.
We all can read these kind of articles and try to test new approaches, but in the end, we have to decide if this approach works for us, now.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 07:44 AM

I primarily consider my own age changes at the 74 as an experience in which I study as a pianist and as a teacher. This is a completely different situation than a student-child, teenager, or adult returning to the instrument after a break of 10 years. For example: the ability to read from a sheet has decreased several times, the signs of alteration and fingering often are forgotten - which requires signs on almost every note, learning a difficult place requires 250-300+ repetitions instead of the usual 20 ; there are appeared signs of dyslexia, which I did not have before, when the parts of both hands are confused with each other. And this is only a part, and only in my case ...
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 08:17 AM

The thing with methodology - there are so many ways done by different teachers and in different countries. My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.

Not sure about that.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 09:43 AM

Repetition is important but "how" to repeat is more important. Mindlessly repeating until you get something right is considered a "brute force" type of method which is inefficeint compared to mindful practice with using a practice method strategies. Some strategies only rely on slow practice which sets up a trap since sometimes people will do incorrect movements they can get away at slower tempo and thus increasing the tempo becomes problematic. There are many tools one can use such as controlled pausing, rhythmic alterations, simplification of the score and gradual addition, understanding the fingering art logic, pattern observations etc etc. Certain specific analysis will act as a catalyst for the individuals progress and help them overcome challenges they may face. Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"
Posted By: Animisha

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
For example: the ability to read from a sheet has decreased several times, the signs of alteration and fingering often are forgotten - which requires signs on almost every note, learning a difficult place requires 250-300+ repetitions instead of the usual 20 ; there are appeared signs of dyslexia, which I did not have before, when the parts of both hands are confused with each other. And this is only a part, and only in my case ...

This sounds quite bad Nahum. How brave of you to keep on with the piano.

Originally Posted by Nahum
I primarily consider my own age changes at the 74 as an experience in which I study as a pianist and as a teacher.

It would be very interesting if you would develop some foundations of geronto-pianism.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 10:10 AM

Nahum
Sorry, but your article from Bulletproof Musician addresses different practice strategies.... but nowhere in this article does it address teaching or practicing strategies related to geriatric musicians. We all age differently, including how we learn. I have not read anything that generalizes this process based on age. ..... and a generalization frankly seems short-sighted.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by dogperson
Nahum
Sorry, but your article from Bulletproof Musician addresses different practice strategies.... but nowhere in this article does it address teaching or practicing strategies related to geriatric musicians. .

The article is not mine, only one of the comments)).
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
My position is that if a young student is being taught well in the way I see "well" (don't want to go into what that entails), that is how I want to be taught as an adult.

Not sure about that.

First we have to define what "taught well" means. The "traditional" ways may not be "well" for any age.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.
Posted By: malkin

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.


Lost--Nahum is expressing doubt about what you wrote. He disagrees with you.
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 01:34 PM

I think there are two separate conversations here.
One is about effective practice strategies without considering the effects of age.

The other is about adapting practice strategies specifically for the older adult. That one is interesting to me, because I am one, and nearing retirement when I may have more time to practice, and less ability to improve.

I don't know how fully sports analogies apply to piano. However, back in the 1940s and 50s Paul Bertholy was one of the leading innovators for golf instruction, and actually started the idea of specific drills. He firmly believed that the best way to teach a child was goal directed modeling, somewhat like Inner Tennis which hadn't been invented yet, but that these methods did not work for adults. Adults needed a much more method oriented specific drill approach because they didn't have access to that childhood learning skill.
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 01:37 PM

malkin,
Nahum is 74, Lost is 38. Two different worlds. (Nahum has been teaching for almost twice Lost's lifespan.)

I'm 66 and having some memory difficulties. Will they interfere with learning something new? Unknown. I'm going to test it soon, maybe guitar or ukulele.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Just getting something right once or twice or twenty times actually is not very useful unless it you can demonstrate multiple controlled repetitions in a row. You need to at least get 3 or so repetitions in a row which are controlled and accurate. One also has to consider how they are learning their music, whether they are trying to put it all into muscular memory or are indeed using reading skills combined with muscular memory since both have different strategies.
This method, which seems to you to be unmistakable, at some stage ceases to be reliable. Many years ago, the famous Moscow piano methodist wrote: "It’s no longer possible to make a mistake!" This stage simply disappears, giving way to some statistical events: "Am I mistaken this time or not?"

I don't follow what you are trying to say here sorry.


Lost--Nahum is expressing doubt about what you wrote. He disagrees with you.

It is all strange his response. Who is this "famous Moscow piano methodist", what is the stage which causes what I said to be unreliable and why is multiple correct repetitions IN A ROW a wrong method and just being able to do it ONCE is enough despite how many failures it required before hand to get it? It all seemed a smoke and mirror response to me. The article also does not relate to HOW to practice rather just a brute force mentality which is inefficient. If he is saying you just have to do it right once that is crazy talk im afraid.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
malkin,
Nahum is 74, Lost is 38. Two different worlds. (Nahum has been teaching for almost twice Lost's lifespan.)

Then with such experience he should be able to express what he disagrees with with something more than "just believe me" type response. Logically being able to do something multiple times in a row is better than just achieving it once, that proves that there is less chance for error. He also did not content with the "how" to practice which I touched on, someone with many years experience would know this inside out and be able to expand on the point. It is not just about repetitions, it is important HOW you repeat and what tools you use with your practice craft all of which is absent in the response.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
Repetition is important but "how" to repeat is more important. ......

This and more expresses what I was trying to say earlier.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/20/19 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder

. Who is this "famous Moscow piano methodist"
, If you are interested - Gregory Kogan, in his book "The Work of Pianist", which became the bible of the Soviet pianism.
The basic idea is that after a period of "correct" work on some technical difficult place of piece , the pianist comes to such a state that he can repeat many times almost without errors; and even more: he is unable to intentionally play with errors.
For me, this does not make sense: long work, starting from a certain point, does not statistically reduce the number of errors. This is due to the weakening of different types of memory, plus uncontrolled hand movements.
When I was a teenager, I did not prepare for piano lessons, but just read at lessons prima vista , made the minimum of mistakes; although I never read the book of this G. Kogan.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 03:31 AM

Thanks for mentioning Kogan for me. The idea of repeating many times, I wonder what "many" represents. When I am talking about repetitions I am talking about small sections of the score that is under study not the entire piece. Surely if you have to do something like 100+ times this is an utter waste of time I even think 20 times is bordering on a waste of time also or evidence you are learning something too difficult. When practicing often a large majority of the piece we are studying is doable without much difficulties but there will be certain parts which are problematic. If someone studies a piece which is far beyond their capabilities then of course you are doing to fall into problems where you have to pay attention to every single bar and deal with excessive attempts, this is not an efficient way to study music as we should build our experience up to a point where the bar is raised as to what becomes manageable for us. So repetition needs often to be done in parts which are challenging and this is usually a small phrase or even parts of single bars. So the amount of repetition is focused in small parts and demonstrating correct repetitions in a row of these small parts is quite important as an indicator of success with it. Of course the tools in which we use to practice as I indicated in my first post here need to be developed and used effectively and this from my experience teaching 70-80+ year olds is still quite effective. It does depend on the individual though, learning new skills is tough if your brain has slowed rapidly in older age though if skills were learnt when you were younger even at old age if the brain is slowing these can still be used and I have noticed this with more mature aged students I have dealt with. There is also an interesting documentary of a man with the worst case of amnesia, a 7 second memory is all he has, he has like half a brain functioning yet his skill at the piano is still preserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO-3Ruw61Sg
It is also interesting to know where the ability to play piano comes from and this article also might be of interest: https://www.theage.com.au/national/...lets-you-play-piano-20181122-p50hlm.html
Posted By: AZNpiano

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 05:35 AM

On the subject of aging.......

If at some point in my life I find myself needing 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, I will simply quit playing piano. It might be more enjoyable to watch live performances at that age.

With the advent of Youtube, there are now far, far too many performances to enjoy--I don't think I will ever get through even a tenth of what's out there.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
. Surely if you have to do something like 100+ times this is an utter waste of time I even think 20 times is bordering on a waste of time also or evidence you are learning something too difficult. When practicing often a large majority of the piece we are studying is doable without much difficulties but there will be certain parts which are problematic. If someone studies a piece which is far beyond their capabilities then of course you are doing to fall into problems where you have to pay attention to every single bar and deal with excessive attempts, this is not an efficient way to study music as we should build our experience up to a point where the bar is raised as to what becomes manageable for us.

Your ready-made strategies are undoubtedly good for average students; however, for example, in my case it simply does not work. It is not a matter of misunderstanding music or a lack of piano technique; but the issue of muscular memory disorder leading to inevitable blunders. Multiple repetitions reduce their number to some extent. This phenomenon is not rare for very adults, but in healthy young people it simply does not exist.
Here is the task: to find a method of working with these phenomena, without using multiple repetitions. The neurological problem can't be fixed, but maybe is possible in some way go around.


Originally Posted by AZNpiano
On the subject of aging.......

If at some point in my life I find myself needing 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, I will simply quit playing piano. It might be more enjoyable to watch live performances at that age.

.
In Israel it was said that A. Rubinstein closed the piano at the age of 91, when his hands lost stability (he stopped giving concerts before - due to the development of blindness ). I accompanied him in a symphony orchestra in 1976; He sometimes missed notes, but this did not interfere.
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder
. Surely if you have to do something like 100+ times this is an utter waste of time I even think 20 times is bordering on a waste of time also or evidence you are learning something too difficult. When practicing often a large majority of the piece we are studying is doable without much difficulties but there will be certain parts which are problematic. If someone studies a piece which is far beyond their capabilities then of course you are doing to fall into problems where you have to pay attention to every single bar and deal with excessive attempts, this is not an efficient way to study music as we should build our experience up to a point where the bar is raised as to what becomes manageable for us.

Your ready-made strategies are undoubtedly good for average students; however, for example, in my case it simply does not work. It is not a matter of misunderstanding music or a lack of piano technique; but the issue of muscular memory disorder leading to inevitable blunders. Multiple repetitions reduce their number to some extent. This phenomenon is not rare for very adults, but in healthy young people it simply does not exist.
Here is the task: to find a method of working with these phenomena, without using multiple repetitions. The neurological problem can't be fixed, but maybe is possible in some way go around.

I use the practice techniques mentioned before with my older students as well with success as well as lower functioning students of all types, they can be modified to deal with whatever challenges they may face. Repetition also works well for severly low functioning austistic students I have taught, some of which cannot even speak, repetition and routine is essential for their development. So I don't see how age can factor in to such an extent that MINDFUL repetition with many practice tools becomes obsolete. If there are other skills you are suggesting (which you still have not yet elaborated or mentioned) they can use then these skills would also be able to help "able minded" students a great deal also, I don't see how there could be a mutually exclusive nature between them so too do I not understand a mutually exclusive relationship between the few practice techniques I have mentioned.

I personally don't see how one can get around a certain amount of reptition, are you suggesting it can be a mental exercise, just think about it in a certain way and then you can do it, this still would require an amount of reptition to become ingrained woudl it not? I feel that studying the piano is unavoidably a repetitious activity and acknowledgement of repetitious ideas found in previous pieces can be used to solve new pieces one may study. Once certain ideas have been understood in the past you do not have to "recreate the wheel" when seeing it in something new you acknlowedge the repetition, simply build upon your experience base thus future pieces become easier if they contain similar ideas you have solved before. Repetition in this manner becomes essential, we will work with pieces which repeat similar ideas from before and thus there is not this need to learn it from scratch or take as much time as it took before to learn similar pieces which used similar ideas. One needs to also become very familiar with certain ideas within a safe controllable space and use mindful repetitions until it is solved well otherwise when they are found in future pieces if they are not known well enough wasted time may be used again to try and solve it as if it is a new idea.
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
On the subject of aging.......

If at some point in my life I find myself needing 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, I will simply quit playing piano. It might be more enjoyable to watch live performances at that age.



But, could you teach someone who needed it?

This thought occurred to me: there may be a huge neglected market for teachers who specialize in geriatric piano students. These students have time, disposable income (and realize they have to pay for quality), and the motivation to learn. Unlike kids they don't have soccer tournaments and dance recitals getting in the way, and they don't graduate from high school and move away, so you might lure them in for the long term.

Of course we know that adult students can be a risk, dropping out early when they realize how hard and slow progress is. But if as Nahum suggests we specifically tailor instruction differently, with what works for the older adult, there might be an audience up there that makes up for the decline in child students.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 12:57 PM

This blog is a good starting point —- he has addressed this need for forty years. Please note that there a number of adults starting lessons late or coming back late in the ABF

http://www.musicalfossils.com/wpmf/
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
On the subject of aging.......

If at some point in my life I find myself needing 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, I will simply quit playing piano. It might be more enjoyable to watch live performances at that age. .....

If indeed you felt that you "needed" 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, then you'd be using ineffective means for solving playing problems. It means that in your youth you could get away with stuff, but were probably missing things all along which are now showing up. What you'd do, if you possessed any wisdom, is have a second look at how to do things, maybe consult someone, and change things. If you were an aging teacher, rather than a teacher in the prime years of your life, you might then become an even better teacher because of these new elements and insights.

I doubt that you yourself would come into that situation, because I think you know practice and learning strategies, and you'd never fall into something as weak as repeating something over and over - surely you already advise your own students otherwise even now.

Some of us here are "at that age". It is not "enjoyable" to watch someone else do what you want to do, if you've given up in such a way - it would be painful. I myself am a learner so I'm in a different situation. Older ("elderly" if you will) musicians I know who have found this or that ability waning, generally have a careful look at how they do things, to find more efficient ways, weak areas in their playing or practice strategies, and generally work in a better manner. Nobody I know would simply resort to hammering out the same passage hundreds of times in the hope of nailing it. Neither would you, I'm sure. smile
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
This thought occurred to me: there may be a huge neglected market for teachers who specialize in geriatric piano students. These students have time, disposable income (and realize they have to pay for quality), and the motivation to learn....

My worry would be about the perception the teacher "specializing", of what a "geriatric" piano student is. I already got burned once (at least) in the perception of "adult" students, and teaching that goes toward that perceived person - which I am not. I don't want the perception of "geriatric" added to that.

If you are a student past middle age, and you want to be able to play more than a recognizable simplified Blue Danube that your earless friends can hum along to ..... you need some things. Efficient, good ways of moving at the piano. A grounding in some "theory" things, but tied to the physical nature of the piano and the ear. Proper practice strategies, both for getting at pieces themselves, and for acquiring the underlying skills. The teacher who gives that may also be one who is good at truly teaching young people. Not one who hothouses kids for exams and recitals with glory pieces in order to appease parents, or one who blindly follows old tradition and figures all the students who don't make it "lack talent". But someone who actually, really knows how to teach in a real way, and isn't afraid to do so if the student is willing to work.

If you are an older student you also don't want to waste your time with something that turns out to be part nonsense, because your time is limited.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by dogperson
This blog is a good starting point —- he has addressed this need for forty years. Please note that there a number of adults starting lessons late or coming back late in the ABF

http://www.musicalfossils.com/wpmf/


bumping Excellent resource. I know this one well and go back to it from time to time.
Posted By: AZNpiano

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
If indeed you felt that you "needed" 200 repetitions to get one passage correctly, then you'd be using ineffective means for solving playing problems. It means that in your youth you could get away with stuff, but were probably missing things all along which are now showing up. What you'd do, if you possessed any wisdom, is have a second look at how to do things, maybe consult someone, and change things. If you were an aging teacher, rather than a teacher in the prime years of your life, you might then become an even better teacher because of these new elements and insights.

No, if I ever needed 200 repetitions to learn a passage, that means my brain has gone bonkers. Is it even worth my time to consult an expert and try to fix what potentially is unfixable?

Originally Posted by keystring
Some of us here are "at that age". It is not "enjoyable" to watch someone else do what you want to do, if you've given up in such a way - it would be painful. I myself am a learner so I'm in a different situation. Older ("elderly" if you will) musicians I know who have found this or that ability waning, generally have a careful look at how they do things, to find more efficient ways, weak areas in their playing or practice strategies, and generally work in a better manner. Nobody I know would simply resort to hammering out the same passage hundreds of times in the hope of nailing it. Neither would you, I'm sure. smile

I'm not that attached to stuff. It would not be painful for me to watch people play piano. Maybe if I go completely deaf. But I can still pull a Beethoven and play symphonies in my head.

I think the more important thing is to be able to change one's perspectives and enjoy life.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/21/19 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
No, if I ever needed 200 repetitions to learn a passage, that means my brain has gone bonkers. Is it even worth my time to consult an expert and try to fix what potentially is unfixable?

That is my point. If someone tells you that due to age they now have to do 200 repetitions to learn a passage, that "strategy" alone suggests that there are things they never learned. If things were not learned, anyone at any age can make a big leap forward, and it will be especially useful for an older person, because when young you can get away with more foolish things, and suboptimal whatevers.
Quote
I think the more important thing is to be able to change one's perspectives and enjoy life.

I'm having a problem with that, because you are coming from a position of youth looking at what age may look like. One really major problem is where those we consult have already written us off. If a younger adult has a problem, you go see the source of the problem. If an older person has the same problem, you don't even try because this "old" thing causes everything always. That is wrong. Does this make sense? (The "you" is a generic you.)

If one truly cannot do something, then you let go. But the first thing is to check whether that is so. Frankly, sitting back and watching others is not my idea of "enjoying life".
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder

. So I don't see how age can factor in to such an extent that MINDFUL repetition with many practice tools becomes obsolete. If there are other skills you are suggesting (which you still have not yet elaborated or mentioned) they can use then these skills would also be able to help "able minded" students a great deal also, I don't see how there could be a mutually exclusive nature between them so too do I not understand a mutually exclusive relationship between the few practice techniques I have mentioned.

I personally don't see how one can get around a certain amount of reptition, are you suggesting it can be a mental exercise, just think about it in a certain way and then you can do it, this still would require an amount of reptition to become ingrained woudl it not? I feel that studying the piano is unavoidably a repetitious activity and acknowledgement of repetitious ideas found in previous pieces can be used to solve new pieces one may study. Once certain ideas have been understood in the past you do not have to "recreate the wheel" when seeing it in something new you acknlowedge the repetition, simply build upon your experience base thus future pieces become easier if they contain similar ideas you have solved before. Repetition in this manner becomes essential, we will work with pieces which repeat similar ideas from before and thus there is not this need to learn it from scratch or take as much time as it took before to learn similar pieces which used similar ideas. One needs to also become very familiar with certain ideas within a safe controllable space and use mindful repetitions until it is solved well otherwise when they are found in future pieces if they are not known well enough wasted time may be used again to try and solve it as if it is a new idea.

You just do not understand me: I do not deny the method of repetition at all; I am talking about something else: where 10 repetitions were required in youth, now it requires more than 150, and not at all because of pianism errors, but errors of an aging brain. Just the ability to mental exercises is greatly reduced - due to a decrease in concentration tone. There are additional factors: it is clear that the work should be carried out on very small fragments, which are further combined; however, confusion sometimes arises between them - the right hand plays one piece, the left hand another. Those doing this work inevitably require more time and effort than in youth; and precisely these forces are becoming less .
Posted By: Colin Miles

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 07:30 AM

The study that Nahum referred to was a very small sample. If repeated, which any decent scientist would do, the results could be quite different. As for learning strategies everyone is different and they will respond differently to any aging issues. I'm a little older than Nahum and am fortunate in still being able to improve. There are no easy answers to learning at any age, we all have to find what is right for us.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 07:33 AM

Nahum
I understand exactly what you are saying about aging; my only thought is to slow down the age-related deterioration as long as possible by continuing to exercise those brain cells in-spite of the frustration. I have a pianist friend who is over ninety who is still learning new music and practicing daily, continuing in spite of the challenges. She has just accepted that the process will be slower. We will all be at that place at some part and will need to adapt and be grateful for what we can do. Not easy to accept.
Posted By: Colin Miles

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 09:45 AM

If you were to take all the different facets involved in playing/learning/memorising the piano and tested everyone you would find a continuous spectrum of abilities which varied from person to person. Whether it is aural, visual or muscle memory, analytical ability, etc., everyone will be different so different strategies are needed. My right hand muscle memory is very good, my left hand muscle memory almost non-existent, so I have to consciously learn and memorise the left hand.

Aging is just another issue to deal with and again people differ in how they age and their attitude towards it. I always remember back in the fifties with our local cricket team. My parents and their peers were saying they were too old and giving up playing. This was completely at odds with how they were actually playing. But that was how they thought in those days. Once you got to a certain age you didn't do certain things.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Colin Miles


Aging is just another issue to deal with and again people differ in how they age and their attitude towards it. I always remember back in the fifties with our local cricket team. My parents and their peers were saying they were too old and giving up playing. This was completely at odds with how they were actually playing. But that was how they thought in those days. Once you got to a certain age you didn't do certain things.


Aging is not just another issue , but THE ISSUE that affects everything that you have devoted so much time of your life. !
Posted By: Lostinidlewonder

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Lostinidlewonder

. So I don't see how age can factor in to such an extent that MINDFUL repetition with many practice tools becomes obsolete. If there are other skills you are suggesting (which you still have not yet elaborated or mentioned) they can use then these skills would also be able to help "able minded" students a great deal also, I don't see how there could be a mutually exclusive nature between them so too do I not understand a mutually exclusive relationship between the few practice techniques I have mentioned.

I personally don't see how one can get around a certain amount of reptition, are you suggesting it can be a mental exercise, just think about it in a certain way and then you can do it, this still would require an amount of reptition to become ingrained woudl it not? I feel that studying the piano is unavoidably a repetitious activity and acknowledgement of repetitious ideas found in previous pieces can be used to solve new pieces one may study. Once certain ideas have been understood in the past you do not have to "recreate the wheel" when seeing it in something new you acknlowedge the repetition, simply build upon your experience base thus future pieces become easier if they contain similar ideas you have solved before. Repetition in this manner becomes essential, we will work with pieces which repeat similar ideas from before and thus there is not this need to learn it from scratch or take as much time as it took before to learn similar pieces which used similar ideas. One needs to also become very familiar with certain ideas within a safe controllable space and use mindful repetitions until it is solved well otherwise when they are found in future pieces if they are not known well enough wasted time may be used again to try and solve it as if it is a new idea.


You just do not understand me: I do not deny the method of repetition at all; I am talking about something else: where 10 repetitions were required in youth, now it requires more than 150, and not at all because of pianism errors, but errors of an aging brain. Just the ability to mental exercises is greatly reduced - due to a decrease in concentration tone. There are additional factors: it is clear that the work should be carried out on very small fragments, which are further combined; however, confusion sometimes arises between them - the right hand plays one piece, the left hand another. Those doing this work inevitably require more time and effort than in youth; and precisely these forces are becoming less .

You are saying repetition doesn't work as you age which I disagree with from experience teaching a number of older people. Though what is more important is that if you state that repetitions are not efficient as you get older you need to then explain what then can they do instead? It seems to me that this would be a revolutionary idea if you can practice piano without the need for repetition, or are you simply stating that as you age you might as well give up piano? 150 repetitions for a older students is ridiculous and I have never seen that that amount is required they certainly can do it with much less from my experience. If repetitions are done mindfully and effectively you should be able to do it no matter what age. I have seen it work with people with disabilities and a brain that is much more restricted than merely old age. Of course if we are talking about people with dementia or alzheimers thats another story and I don't think anything can help them learn piano, they would much more benefit from listening to music which they love, that will awaken their mind in a much more beneficial way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyZQf0p73QM
Posted By: Colin Miles

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Colin Miles


Aging is just another issue to deal with and again people differ in how they age and their attitude towards it. I always remember back in the fifties with our local cricket team. My parents and their peers were saying they were too old and giving up playing. This was completely at odds with how they were actually playing. But that was how they thought in those days. Once you got to a certain age you didn't do certain things.


Aging is not just another issue , but THE ISSUE that affects everything that you have devoted so much time of your life. !

Nahum. This is obviously hitting a nerve - apologies.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 07:41 PM

The idea of "age" for approaching any aspect of piano learning or playing doesn't work for me, because it's not like having any particular attribute. I have a developing cataract and can't adjust focus from near to far in the way I used to. My hearing is fine. Memory is better than ever, because I've learned a lot of efficiency and focus things. Another person may have perfect eyes, poor ears. Another still may have no problems in any of those areas. If your playing is linked to reading, then memory may not be an issue etc.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
The idea of "age" for approaching any aspect of piano learning or playing doesn't work for me, because it's not like having any particular attribute. I have a developing cataract and can't adjust focus from near to far in the way I used to. My hearing is fine. Memory is better than ever, because I've learned a lot of efficiency and focus things. Another person may have perfect eyes, poor ears. Another still may have no problems in any of those areas. If your playing is linked to reading, then memory may not be an issue etc.


Nahum has a specific age-related issue Which is why he wrote the thread.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/23/19 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by dogperson
Nahum has a specific age-related issue Which is why he wrote the thread.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. It's also causing confusion, because folks are thinking that this is about age, and that can lead to an idea of approaches for all elderly people. This is actually also the point. If an elderly person ends up having a specific problem, then the teaching or new approach to playing has to address that problem. But the problem that an older person has will be different from person to person. There is no such thing as "age" as a problem - only problems that arise due to age. The fact of losing abilities one has always had, however, that is probably common to most people when they age.

Maybe this thread should be toward the specific problem that Nahum is experiencing, which btw sucks. Or maybe it is now already heading in that direction.
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/24/19 12:20 AM

There may be another factor that affects us as we age, and this is probably not related to Nahum's difficulty.

However, I've talked to a teacher who feels that particularly for brass players (which is his main specialty) incorrect technique can catch up with you. When young, talent and effort can produce great playing even with poor technique, but at some point the mechanism fails. This is often diagnosed as a dystonia, but he doesn't like to define it that way (though his retraining in correct technique is similar to the approach of some of the dystonia specialists.)

Nahum's issue sounds more neurological than that, and i don't know how much this would apply to piano anyway.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/24/19 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by TimR
There may be another factor that affects us as we age, and this is probably not related to Nahum's difficulty.

However, I've talked to a teacher who feels that particularly for brass players (which is his main specialty) incorrect technique can catch up with you. When young, talent and effort can produce great playing even with poor technique, but at some point the mechanism fails. This is often diagnosed as a dystonia, but he doesn't like to define it that way (though his retraining in correct technique is similar to the approach of some of the dystonia specialists.)


This goes to something that I was suggesting. If you are considering teaching older students, or if you are an older student considering learning, then things of efficiency become even more important. That is why I said earlier that I'd want a teacher who teaches young students very well, but not in the sense of parent-pleasing or reputation-earning prize winners via a few select awesome pieces, but really solid foundations. That means things like learning to move well, practice effectively, and getting underlying tools of understanding in a practical way.

What we see in some "specialists in adults" is things like shortcuts in order to get at tunes you love fast, "advance" quickly etc., which does not go in that kind of direction. I'd be afraid of a new breed of teachers going after the "geriatric market" of the "aging boomers" (boomers have always been a market) would be thinking of things like "easy non-challenging songs bringing back fond memories of youth, and help wile away the long retirement hours", which might be fine if the aim is still to give those foundations I wrote about. But I don't think that is always a given and may actually be less likely.

Nahum is actually generally on track with the idea he started with: better and more efficient ways. That is the gist of the opening article.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/24/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by keystring

Nahum is actually generally on track with the idea he started with: better and more efficient ways. That is the gist of the opening article.
Exactly ! It would be interesting to see the results of 36 basketball players aged 65-80 years with an experience of playing at 1 year. Unfortunately, no one gives grants to this ...
I encountered the categorical lack of understanding of age problems for the first time at the age of 61, when I finally sat down at a computer. The first problem was the study of the alphabetic keyboard, and attempts to switch to a blind method. For this, I acquired a textbook of the sequential method, which, as it turned out, did not help at all - within three months. I turned to the author of the textbook, who assured that within a few weeks I would start typing blindly. Thirteen years have passed since then; I cannot type blindly at all; and the speed of printing by the sighted method has significantly decreased, and the number of errors has increased significantly. Nobody is engaged in the creation of relevant statistics. This is what is called an unfriendly method.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/24/19 09:41 PM

Yes, but ............. There isn't one single thing that happens to "the aged". Different aging people will have different things going on.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/24/19 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by TimR
There may be another factor that affects us as we age, and this is probably not related to Nahum's difficulty.

However, I've talked to a teacher who feels that particularly for brass players (which is his main specialty) incorrect technique can catch up with you. When young, talent and effort can produce great playing even with poor technique, but at some point the mechanism fails. This is often diagnosed as a dystonia, but he doesn't like to define it that way (though his retraining in correct technique is similar to the approach of some of the dystonia specialists.)


This goes to something that I was suggesting. If you are considering teaching older students, or if you are an older student considering learning, then things of efficiency become even more important. That is why I said earlier that I'd want a teacher who teaches young students very well, but not in the sense of parent-pleasing or reputation-earning prize winners via a few select awesome pieces, but really solid foundations. That means things like learning to move well, practice effectively, and getting underlying tools of understanding in a practical way.

What we see in some "specialists in adults" is things like shortcuts in order to get at tunes you love fast, "advance" quickly etc., which does not go in that kind of direction. I'd be afraid of a new breed of teachers going after the "geriatric market" of the "aging boomers" (boomers have always been a market) would be thinking of things like "easy non-challenging songs bringing back fond memories of youth, and help wile away the long retirement hours", which might be fine if the aim is still to give those foundations I wrote about. But I don't think that is always a given and may actually be less likely.

Nahum is actually generally on track with the idea he started with: better and more efficient ways. That is the gist of the opening article.
.

I’m not seeing how these two posts are related to a skilled pianist/teacher who posts that he is now having problems with not being able to learn as quickly. This is not a beginning pianist who has a teacher who wants to rush through because he is an adult. I don’t understand the OT digression that talks about poor technique and poor teaching.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 12:00 AM

The topic introduced is teaching older students in general. BOTH topics are in there mixed together. We have someone who has taught piano for a long time and played piano and other instruments for a long time, and that particular situation, and we also have the topic of teaching any older students -- the idea of geronto etc. in general.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
The topic introduced is teaching older students in general. BOTH topics are in there mixed together. We have someone who has taught piano for a long time and played piano and other instruments for a long time, and that particular situation, and we also have the topic of teaching any older students -- the idea of geronto etc. in general.


Your post 24 hours ago stated this post should get back in topic to the original question from the OP..., which is a specific age-related topic. It was not about poor teaching of older students.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 01:38 AM

You must have misunderstood any implied "should".

If we are discussing both topics, meaning the other topic of teaching older students in general, then one factor would be good or bad or appropriate teaching. Please, let everyone make their contribution their own way. If something I say interests you, good. If you disagree with an idea - mine or someone else's - feel free to express that disagreement. But saying what one should or shouldn't post is just confusing and a bit disheartening.

I will not be discussing what I or anyone else should post.
Posted By: dogperson

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
You must have misunderstood any implied "should".

If we are discussing both topics, meaning the other topic of teaching older students in general, then one factor would be good or bad or appropriate teaching. Please, let everyone make their contribution their own way. If something I say interests you, good. If you disagree with an idea - mine or someone else's - feel free to express that disagreement. But saying what one should or shouldn't post is just confusing and a bit disheartening.

I will not be discussing what I or anyone else should post.
.

You are so right..,, the explicit word ‘should’ can be easily misunderstood
Posted By: malkin

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Colin Miles


Aging is just another issue to deal with and again people differ in how they age and their attitude towards it. I always remember back in the fifties with our local cricket team. My parents and their peers were saying they were too old and giving up playing. This was completely at odds with how they were actually playing. But that was how they thought in those days. Once you got to a certain age you didn't do certain things.


Aging is not just another issue , but THE ISSUE that affects everything that you have devoted so much time of your life. !



I have 2 points to make in response to this post.
First, while everyone is aging, "age" is NOT (yet) an issue for people who are under 30 or possibly under 50.

Second, since people experience different degrees of deterioration in various areas, there is no single effect of aging. As keystring noted previously, individuals will experience the effects of aging on vision, hearing, cognition, motor skills, daily living skills, etc. in varying levels. While age does affect everything, it doesn't do so evenly within or across individuals.

Perhaps in addition to "pedagogy" and "androgogy" the area of "gerontogogy" needs to be developed, not just as pertains to the teaching of piano, but to the all teaching to older learners.
Posted By: Animisha

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by malkin
Second, since people experience different degrees of deterioration in various areas, there is no single effect of aging. As keystring noted previously, individuals will experience the effects of aging on vision, hearing, cognition, motor skills, daily living skills, etc. in varying levels. While age does affect everything, it doesn't do so evenly within or across individuals.

When I read this, I thought about how children also develop in greatly varying levels. For some, motor development is much faster than language development, for others the other way around. There are huge differences in the ability to concentrate, to memorise, to understand abstractions, etc. When I compare to when I was a child, and that was ages ago, school teachers have become more aware of these differences and try to meet each individual's needs.

Originally Posted by malkin
Perhaps in addition to "pedagogy" and "androgogy" the area of "gerontogogy" needs to be developed, not just as pertains to the teaching of piano, but to the all teaching to older learners.

Yes, that would be very interesting! And I think gerontogogy could find a lot of inspiring ideas in pedagogy for special needs kids, but would need to develop these ideas in its own direction.
Posted By: Colin Miles

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 06:57 AM

There are indeed two issues involved here, that of learning a new discipline or set of skills when no longer 'young', and the effect of aging on learning within an already learnt discipline.

With the first problem, consider learning a new language. An infant is programmed to learn language, any language, and most people lose that natural ability once they are into their teens. When we moved to Wales some 17 years ago we decided to learn Welsh. It is a very difficult language but the process wasn't helped by the kind of teaching that we encountered. We were not infants exposed 24/7 to the language and the approach needed was entirely different from that with infants. And basically there are no easy answers or ways of doing this, or indeed any new set of skills.

The second problem is learning something new within a discipline you have already 'mastered', or developing within that. As mentioned above, different people age at different rates and the physical effects of that is something that can only be mitigated by the way we live, diet, exercise, etc - basically healthy living. But I say again that attitude is also a factor on all of this. Mind over matter. Nicki Lauder springs to mind.
Posted By: keystring

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/25/19 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by dogperson
You are so right..,, the explicit word ‘should’ can be easily misunderstood


I found the quote:
"Maybe this thread should be toward the specific problem that Nahum is experiencing, which btw sucks. Or maybe it is now already heading in that direction."

There is a "maybe" in front, and it starts with a quote of you, where you were stating that the thread was about Nahum's problem - so that "maybe" statement is referring to your opinion, that maybe folks might indeed want to go in the direction ........ or maybe what you seemed to say we should do, maybe that might be the way to go. I don't usually tell people what they "should" do so I was surprised that I would have done so. Apparently the word "should" can be misunderstood. wink
Posted By: hello my name is

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/30/19 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
What I didn't get is the "shooting past students in retirement age" comment. What do you mean?
The piano technique has existed for over 400 years, has been developed by more than any other musical instrument, and has historically been used and continues to be used by many tens of millions of teachers. However, the whole methodology was built and is still aimed primarily at educating children from the age of 5; teenagers; and "adult" students - we usually have after military service, i.e. at the age of 24- 35 years. Students of retirement age never was not taken into account ; what refers to group statistical studies and, as a result, to the choice of training strategies . I know that not everyone is pleased to read about it; however, while I am alive, I have touched and will touch on this topic.


Hi Nahum, this is a very interesting topic! There is definitely a need. I taught very briefly a retirement-age student, and I recognized quickly that I did not know what to do with her. Definitely age changes things. In her case, her fingers shook and had difficulty with faster passages, and there was also her lifespan to consider. How much longer could she enjoy piano? Sorry, not pleasant, but true. Have you read the book Being Mortal? You might enjoy it, I found it very enlightening. My particular student's husband had also passed away a few years ago. She had stopped playing certain pieces because they made her sad because she used to play them for him. She brought with her many stories and many books, and often spent much of the lesson time just talking to me and showing me what she liked. She also had difficulty taking direction. I was treated more like a granddaughter with some extra skills that could help maybe give her a tip or two and motivate her and give her company. She was happy to throw money at me and was the only student I ever had to tell me specifically to charge her when she cancelled. She had a particular piece (Chopin Nocturne) she loved and wanted to learn. It was a little beyond her skill level, but because of her age, I figured, why not? In my time with her, she only got through the first page or so, and not without mistakes though not ones that would hinder her enjoyment too much (substituting notes that are still within the particular chord). To my surprise she would also tell me that she was busy doing many things and sometimes did not have time to practice as much as she would have liked (quite contrary to my view of what retirement would be like)... so I guess that doesn't change...

I get what you're saying about the repetitions. I found that to be the case for her too. It was .. a slower process. I think, philosophically, acceptance could be key here. But perhaps a part of not accepting is the drive to think outside the box and think about hey, is there something else I could do here because this repetition thing is not getting me to perfection anymore. However, I suspect that the deterioration of our body is going to cause us to not be able to achieve perfection, without much exception. Hey, I don't even achieve perfection as a young person for various reasons (super random error that I've never made before happens during our performance because anxiety? lol).

Keystring and others lol~ I think it's fair that we should learn to approach each individual as an individual, but I think specializing (this person is old, perhaps they may have trouble with x, y, z which many more old people have trouble with compared to young people) can be very useful and great as starting points, as long as we don't limit ourselves to them. I think communication is key to avoiding the problem you are describing. As for the benefits of a piano teacher educated in geriatrics, I learned in the Being Mortal book that one of the most dangerous things to an elderly person that will affect their independence is having a fall. Also, there are some things that are practically universal about aging. Your brain literally shrinks. By seventy, you've lost some gray matter that leaves about an inch in space. Your lordosis of your spine tips forward (that's why elderly people choke so often while eating). I would have had no idea, and now I know what to watch out for with my grandma. Also, the author found geriatric medicine is extremely beneficial. A study found high risk elderly patients who went to a geriatric doctor instead of just their usual physician were a "quarter less likely to become disabled and half as likely to develop depression. They were 40 percent less likely to require home health services." Wow! It's good to know. Now I know what to watch out for with my own grandma as she ages. People like me (young, never have dealt with aging directly) have no clue about these things. Clearly there is some benefit to the geriatric population to work with a doctor who specifically studies geriatric people! I would like to venture a guess that geriatric pianists might benefit from something similar.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/30/19 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by hello my name is
[ Clearly there is some benefit to the geriatric population to work with a doctor who specifically studies geriatric people! I would like to venture a guess that geriatric pianists might benefit from something similar.
It is safe to add, "the teacher in certain areas " .
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/31/19 03:00 PM

I found some interesting articles here:

https://newhorizonsmusic.org/research/
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/31/19 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
I found some interesting articles here:

https://newhorizonsmusic.org/research/

Thanks , Tim; it is very interesting ; and yet hidden from the radar of international music sites. I never heard of NHIMA, and nevertheless apparently there are those who wouldn't like to hear about it.
I wonder if anyone has the experience, similar to mine, to teach improvisation to very adult musicians (75-82) - from zero?

I want to introduce teachers to another topic for thoughts: the influence of age-related changes on the mechanism of coordination between the hands. In the process of studying the reasons for my own inaccurate sloppy play, I came across at the moment of transitions from playing one hand to playing both, when it became clear beyond doubt that the motoric engrams“flow” periodically from one hemisphere to another ; which, at best, causes the fingers of every hand to slide off the correct keys; and at worst, the other hand starts to play with similar fingers. And this after many years of performance of various music, including polyphony. When playing with only one hand, the number of mistakes decreases several times. This suggests, IMO, is worthy of a study that motor engrams, created as a result of repeated training, create also a specific isolated neural network; what allows to play at the same time different parts in both hands; however, age-related changes partially eliminate the boundaries of their separation.
Posted By: TimR

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/31/19 06:08 PM

Nahum,
That is interesting about the hand application.

I had an experience a couple of years back that may be relevant.

I'm primarily a trombone player. One of the things I taught myself during a period overseas when practice time was quite limited was to be familiar with all key signatures. I did this by taking one key a week and working it every day note by note - two notes at a time for my entire range, then three, then four, etc. This built motor memory (I hate that term, it's really in your brain, but we know what I mean) separately for each key. This is good on trombone, because there is often a choice of position for a given note, and a scale in one key signature may use very different choices than in another. The trombone is an asymmetric instrument where some half steps are close and easy, others very hard. The advantage of this exercise was that no key signature became intimidating, and I could sightread music in longer phrases rather than note by note.

Then I injured my right shoulder. No problem, you can put a trombone together left handed just as easily.

Except, the scales were gone. Not from muscle memory, where I expected some impact, but from theoretical memory. I could no longer remember what notes were in a B major scale without stopping to think. Or in an Eb major scale that I've probably played many thousands of times.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/31/19 06:32 PM

Improving Cognitive Function in Older Adults: Nontraditional Approaches
https://academic.oup.com/psychsocgerontology/article/62/Special_Issue_1/45/2965150

IMPROVING COGNITION THROUGH ACTIVATION OF AUTOMATIC PROCESSES

One area that has received a great deal of attention in improving everyday function of older adults is the area of medical adherence. This is a particularly salient issue for older adults, given that the cognitive declines that accompany normal aging ) may affect adherence by impeding older adults' ability to perform desirable health maintenance behaviors. A substantial literature on medical information processing indicates that older adults may have more difficulty comprehending, remembering, and following physician instructions compared to younger adults . One approach to improving medication adherence has been to train the component processes thought to underlie medication adherence, such as speed of processing, reasoning, and memory. Ball and colleagues demonstrated that although training on component processes improved performance on those component processes, the improvement did not transfer to activities of daily living (e.g., medication adherence). Another major approach has not involved training, but rather has relied on the provision of external cues and reminders ( or the reorganization of medical information to make it more memorable . These nontraining approaches have been relatively successful in facilitating adherence behavior.

Nevertheless, it is not always possible to rely on external cues or restructuring of information, and it would be very desirable to develop effective training or instructional techniques to foster improvement that rely on improving some aspect of cognitive function within the individual. One successful strategy for improving cognition in older adults might be to rely on cognitive processes that remain intact with age in the service of a particular goal, rather than attempting to train declining function.
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 05/31/19 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
,

Then I injured my right shoulder. No problem, you can put a trombone together left handed just as easily.

Of course you need a trombone for left-handers. During the period of military service, I began to play Dixieland on trombone; and it is exactly sewn on my character. But ... you cannot grasp the immensity! laugh
Posted By: Nahum

Re: 3 Different Types of Practice Strategies and geronto-pianism - 06/10/19 06:28 PM

I think that the readers of this topic will be interested to know how, depending on age, changes the time spent on studying and transferring to the keyboard polyrhythmic construction of West African music - only by ear, without notes.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/sFFMJQNsSL8?feature=player_detailpage&autoplay=1

- pattern of 6/4 from 0: 25

In youth, it could take me approx. 40 minutes . At this days , it took me 4 ,5 hours - three times for an hour and a half.
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