Piano World Home Page

Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help!

Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 06:55 AM

Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Please advise.

And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other one? What are his problems in this piece?

I will appreciate ANY COMMENTS!

For listening simply click on link.

Petzold Minuet in G-Major

Student A https://yadi.sk/d/i8xMLWtrL2xmww

Student B https://yadi.sk/d/UQMQpsne4qnnPQ



Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir
Posted By: Blague

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 08:09 AM

Student B sounds better. I'm a (very new) student, not a teacher, so I can't provide a whole lot of feedback. Student B flows better. Sounds like A just needs to practice more, and remember not to drop bits at the end of notes. It's like s/he's adding a bunch of mini rests throughout the piece.
Posted By: Eric399

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 08:22 AM

I wonder what you are really trying to achieve with this and the thread before. Why can't you simply ask?
Posted By: Blague

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Eric399
I wonder what you are really trying to achieve with this and the thread before. Why can't you simply ask?


New teacher? Doubting his own judgement? I'd be interested in hearing him answer his own question as perhaps a better way to start a discussion.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Blague
Originally Posted by Eric399
I wonder what you are really trying to achieve with this and the thread before. Why can't you simply ask?


New teacher? Doubting his own judgement? I'd be interested in hearing him answer his own question as perhaps a better way to start a discussion.


" In English "Since I doubt, I think; since I think I exist" -Descartes
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Blague
Student B sounds better. I'm a (very new) student, not a teacher, so I can't provide a whole lot of feedback. Student B flows better. Sounds like A just needs to practice more, and remember not to drop bits at the end of notes. It's like s/he's adding a bunch of mini rests throughout the piece.


Thank you very Much!

It is so interesting to hear from you.

What about these two renditions of the same piece?


A . https://yadi.sk/d/y-eS8tTmBHS64w



B. https://yadi.sk/d/uQiphKUxwhtufg



Which pianist out of these two do you prefer?

What are your reasons for your opinion?

What would you fix in the way of playing of another pianist?


Thanks in advance!

Vladimir
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Eric399
I wonder what you are really trying to achieve with this and the thread before. Why can't you simply ask?


Well, let us bargain! I answer all the question honestly but not free.

You and everyone interesting should answer first my LAST question on this topic:

In the well known to everyone song "Happy birthday to you!" which note should be louder: on "TO" or on "YOU"?

Thank you in advance!

Vladimir
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin


And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other one?


reverse mitosis?
Posted By: TimR

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.

Ditto.
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Please advise.

And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other one? What are his problems in this piece?

I will appreciate ANY COMMENTS!

For listening simply click on link.

Petzold Minuet in G-Major

Student A https://yadi.sk/d/i8xMLWtrL2xmww

Student B https://yadi.sk/d/UQMQpsne4qnnPQ



Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir

B is better, but glaring weaknesses in both.

I don't believe this is a student. I think you are playing both times, highlighting different articulation. Or someone else is playing both, same thing.

The weaknesses are not common student weaknesses. Same tempo for both. Both are rushed. Why? The LH is weak in comparison to the RH, so LH is underplayed. Ornaments are non-standard. I don't like them.
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.

Ditto.

Ditto. He is jerking our chains...
Posted By: Andamento

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.

Ditto.

Ditto. He is jerking our chains...


I think so, too. Back in 2005 on this thread, he claims to have experience as an adjudicator...

Quote
Judging from my experience as an adjudicator, this �self-expression� instead of knowledge of basics of music is a real problem for teaching nowadays.


and that he's been

Quote
...gathering and testing these rules for more than 40 years...


Interesting replies, too, to his other thread from 2005, like this comment:

Originally Posted by pianocliff
He actually posted the same thing to like 20 online forums. Anything from Math or Physics to Piano...This guy really needs a vacation ...heehee

~pianocliff


If he's had as many years of experience teaching, adjudicating, "gathering and testing" [musical data] as he's claiming (I have my doubts), then he doesn't need to be posting the sorts of questions he's been asking here lately.

Vladimir, what's the truth? Who are you, and what do you want from us?

And what's up with your posting history? Your first six threads that you started were over the course of 13 years, beginning in 2005, and you never responded to any reply you got until July 2018. The remaining 48 posts you've made in this forum have entirely been in that month and this.

First it was post, then cut and run; now it's bombard us with post after post, basically asking us the same thing over and over, with only slight variations.

"Please, help!"??

Please be honest about yourself and your intentions. I have never known an adjudicator to be as desperate for information on evaluating performances as you appear to be. Your "credentials," as put forth in your posts from 2005, look highly suspect now.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 07:22 PM

All the playing in both threads sounded to my ear like they were being done by the same person, and in the "three students" thread Mr. Dounin stated at one point that it was so for those students. I think his actual goal is to eventually bring across some ideas he has about what should be stressed about playing, or something like that. This is a laudable goal. I'm sure that all here would be open to hearing those ideas and considering them, if this is so. But what we're getting is a scenario about a teacher needing to make decisions about students and performance placements.

I don't usually write in riddles, but I did last night with this post:
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other one?

reverse mitosis?


Mitosis is the splitting of one cell into two, and I was alluding to the idea of one single person generating two performances. If both performances come from the hands of one same individual, then to fix the playing of "student worse", just go back to the original player who has all the necessary skills. i.e. unsplit the split. If there are actually different students, then I was wrong to post that.

If a teacher wishes to explore ideas with fellow teachers, then many would be up to it, when they have the time. Otoh, if a teacher needs help with a situation, there is an urgency to that which makes colleagues drop everything to help with that emergency - and if the scenario is not real this bothers me. The Internet requires a certain degree of trust because we are strangers meeting in a sea of words.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 07:55 PM

As an OT, while checking that I had the word "mitosis" right I discovered that there "reverse mitosis" actually exists and holds some exciting medical promises.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
As an OT, while checking that I had the word "mitosis" right I discovered that there "reverse mitosis" actually exists and holds some exciting medical promises.

But, alas, I'm afraid such medical advancements won't be helpful for Students A & B.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.


All these forums are just kind of game. I am within the rules of game. I do not insult anyone. Why do you call me "offensive"?

Please, read my post on BOURLESQUE. I am absolutely open there.

All the best!

Vladimir
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by keystring


If a teacher wishes to explore ideas with fellow teachers, then many would be up to it, when they have the time. Otoh, if a teacher needs help with a situation, there is an urgency to that which makes colleagues drop everything to help with that emergency - and if the scenario is not real this bothers me. The Internet requires a certain degree of trust because we are strangers meeting in a sea of words.


All these forums are just a kind of a fun game. I am within the rules of game. I do not insult anyone. I am just playing with you like with partners in a card game.

Please, read my post on BOURLESQUE. I am absolutely open there.

The next will be the "Sweat Dream" by Tchaikovsky (as soon as I get score).

All the best!

Vladimir
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Andamento
Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by TimR
[quote=Vladimir Dounin]Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.

Ditto.

Ditto. He is jerking our chains...


I think so, too. Back in 2005 on this thread, he claims to have experience as an adjudicator...

Quote
Judging from my experience as an adjudicator, this �self-expression� instead of knowledge of basics of music is a real problem for teaching nowadays.


and that he's been

Quote
...gathering and testing these rules for more than 40 years...


Interesting replies, too, to his other thread from 2005, like this comment:

Originally Posted by pianocliff
He actually posted the same thing to like 20 online forums. Anything from Math or Physics to Piano...This guy really needs a vacation ...heehee

~pianocliff


If he's had as many years of experience teaching, adjudicating, "gathering and testing" [musical data] as he's claiming (I have my doubts), then he doesn't need to be posting the sorts of questions he's been asking here lately.

Vladimir, what's the truth? Who are you, and what do you want from us?

And what's up with your posting history? Your first six threads that you started were over the course of 13 years, beginning in 2005, and you never responded to any reply you got until July 2018. The remaining 48 posts you've made in this forum have entirely been in that month and this.

First it was post, then cut and run; now it's bombard us with post after post, basically asking us the same thing over and over, with only slight variations.

"Please, help!"??

Please be honest about yourself and your intentions. I have never known an adjudicator to be as desperate for information on evaluating performances as you appear to be. Your "credentials," as put forth in your posts from 2005, look highly suspect now. [/quote]
Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Please advise.

And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other one? What are his problems in this piece?

I will appreciate ANY COMMENTS!

For listening simply click on link.

Petzold Minuet in G-Major

Student A https://yadi.sk/d/i8xMLWtrL2xmww

Student B https://yadi.sk/d/UQMQpsne4qnnPQ



Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir

B is better, but glaring weaknesses in both.

I don't believe this is a student. I think you are playing both times, highlighting different articulation. Or someone else is playing both, same thing.

The weaknesses are not common student weaknesses. Same tempo for both. Both are rushed. Why? The LH is weak in comparison to the RH, so LH is underplayed. Ornaments are non-standard. I don't like them.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Andamento
Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by TimR
[quote=Vladimir Dounin]Two of my students want to play the same Petzold Minuet in G Major at a school concert. I do not know which of these two to choose for public performance?

Vladimir


Vladimir,
You have lost my trust, so I will not participate.

I do not believe you really have two students who want to play.

If you said, "here are two renditions of a piece of music that I would like feedback on," if you were simply honest, then I would be willing to give feedback.

I find setting up fake concerts and fake students to make some kind of point, a point you are unwilling to share explicitly, offensive.

If that is not the case, if you really are in a quandary over two real students at a real concert, then I abjectly apologize.

Ditto.

Ditto. He is jerking our chains...


I think so, too. Back in 2005 on this thread, he claims to have experience as an adjudicator...

Quote
Judging from my experience as an adjudicator, this �self-expression� instead of knowledge of basics of music is a real problem for teaching nowadays.


and that he's been

Quote
...gathering and testing these rules for more than 40 years...


Interesting replies, too, to his other thread from 2005, like this comment:

Originally Posted by pianocliff
He actually posted the same thing to like 20 online forums. Anything from Math or Physics to Piano...This guy really needs a vacation ...heehee

~pianocliff


If he's had as many years of experience teaching, adjudicating, "gathering and testing" [musical data] as he's claiming (I have my doubts), then he doesn't need to be posting the sorts of questions he's been asking here lately.

Vladimir, what's the truth? Who are you, and what do you want from us?

And what's up with your posting history? Your first six threads that you started were over the course of 13 years, beginning in 2005, and you never responded to any reply you got until July 2018. The remaining 48 posts you've made in this forum have entirely been in that month and this.

First it was post, then cut and run; now it's bombard us with post after post, basically asking us the same thing over and over, with only slight variations.

"Please, help!"??

Please be honest about yourself and your intentions. I have never known an adjudicator to be as desperate for information on evaluating performances as you appear to be. Your "credentials," as put forth in your posts from 2005, look highly suspect now. [/quote]


How to play and sing "Happy Birthday"?
I am so frustrated with all this unexpected criticism that I forgot: how to play with both hands and all five fingers.
Now I study again and play with only one finger.

Please tell me where my music is better, and where is worse:
on "A" versions or on "B" versions?

Thanks in advance!

Vladimir

https://yadi.sk/d/H8ODGg42DujdWg HP

https://yadi.sk/d/qii0SlGGmBUrqg HN

https://yadi.sk/d/5k3Ip0terBDr1Q LP

https://yadi.sk/d/JFLFrAEqCPjjgQ LN


https://yadi.sk/d/tl3dW9vNMrNt2w HN
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Andamento
[quote=Gary D.][quote=Morodiene][quote=TimR][quote=Vladimir Dounin]

Vladimir, what's the truth? Who are you, and what do you want from us?

And what's up with your posting history? Your first six threads that you started were over the course of 13 years, beginning in 2005, and you never responded to any reply you got until July 2018. The remaining 48 posts you've made in this forum have entirely been in that month and this.

First it was post, then cut and run; now it's bombard us with post after post, basically asking us the same thing over and over, with only slight variations.

"Please, help!"??

Please be honest about yourself and your intentions. I have never known an adjudicator to be as desperate for information on evaluating performances as you appear to be. Your "credentials," as put forth in your posts from 2005, look highly suspect now.


I do research on methods of teaching INTENSITY in nowadays schools and ability/disability of modern musicians to detect differences between different, opposite patterns of INTENSITY in MELODY (all the rest in music is out of my focus at the moment).

In the past it was impossible for me to post music along with my posts. So, all discussions were senseless. Now I have this opportunity and learn: how to communicate with other musicians on this topic?


How to play and sing "Happy Birthday"?


I am so frustrated with all this unexpected criticism that I forgot: how to play with both hands and all five fingers.
Now I study again and play with only one finger.

Please tell me: where my music is better, and where is worse:
on "A" versions or on "B" versions?

Thanks in advance!

Vladimir

https://yadi.sk/d/H8ODGg42DujdWg HP

https://yadi.sk/d/qii0SlGGmBUrqg HN

https://yadi.sk/d/5k3Ip0terBDr1Q LP

https://yadi.sk/d/JFLFrAEqCPjjgQ LN


https://yadi.sk/d/tl3dW9vNMrNt2w HN
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:36 PM

Sorry, forgot letters in front of versions^

A1 https://yadi.sk/d/H8ODGg42DujdWg HP

B1 https://yadi.sk/d/qii0SlGGmBUrqg HN

A2 https://yadi.sk/d/5k3Ip0terBDr1Q LP

B2 https://yadi.sk/d/JFLFrAEqCPjjgQ LN


B3 https://yadi.sk/d/tl3dW9vNMrNt2w HN
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Eric399
I wonder what you are really trying to achieve with this and the thread before. Why can't you simply ask?



I do a research. I need statistics on following topics: Do modern teachers know anything about INTENSITY or not? Can they detect and describe different, opposite patterns of INTENSITY, can they choose an appropriate INTENSITY for given kind of music and explain their reasons for their decision? And so on.


How to play and sing "Happy Birthday"?


I am so frustrated with all this unexpected criticism that I forgot: how to play with both hands and all five fingers.
Now I study again and play with only one finger.

Please tell me where my music is better, and where is worse:
on "A" versions or on "B" versions?

Thanks in advance!

Vladimir

A1 https://yadi.sk/d/H8ODGg42DujdWg HP

B1 https://yadi.sk/d/qii0SlGGmBUrqg HN

A2 https://yadi.sk/d/5k3Ip0terBDr1Q LP

B2 https://yadi.sk/d/JFLFrAEqCPjjgQ LN


B3 https://yadi.sk/d/tl3dW9vNMrNt2w HN
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/11/19 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gary D.

B is better, but glaring weaknesses in both.
The weaknesses are not common student weaknesses. Same tempo for both. Both are rushed. Why? The LH is weak in comparison to the RH, so LH is underplayed. Ornaments are non-standard. I don't like them.



Could you, please, give us a chance to listen to your or somebody else proper performance of this Petzold Minuet in G Major?

Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
All these forums are just a kind of a fun game. I am within the rules of game. I do not insult anyone. I am just playing with you like with partners in a card game.

I tried to indicate in your first thread with the "work on the Internet" title that I suspected that you have a communication problem, and don't yet know how to communicate in forums with colleagues on the Net. This is why you are getting bad reactions which perplex you. In forums for professionals, the norm is honesty and mutual respect. Yes, there will be "hucksters" coming in selling their wares, like "snake oil salesmen" of the "wild west" but they don't get respected. You must understand this in order to communicate.

If somebody comes in saying he is a teacher, and has a hard decision to make about his students, then colleagues will believe this is a true and maybe urgent situation. They may drop everything in order to sincerely help. If it turns out to be a game: there are no students, there is no concert, there are no problems, then the trust of honesty is broken. The others were not playing games, and took you seriously. You must understand this.

Consider, also, that we are meeting from many cultures, countries, and languages. communication consists both of words and unspoken convention. It is important to write with as much clarity as possible. If you play games, then you add layers of confusion. It leads to misunderstanding and resentment.

Your "Bourlesque" thread is finally going in the right direction, in that you have defined what you are talking about, and what the goals are to your thread. This should at least minimize miscommunication. I don't know if you still have trust of the members here, due to the first misadventures.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

I do a research. I need statistics on following topics: Do modern teachers know anything about INTENSITY or not? Can they detect and describe different, opposite patterns of INTENSITY, can they choose an appropriate INTENSITY for given kind of music and explain their reasons for their decision? And so on.

I am not a teacher, and will be reading this thread, rather than participating for the most part. I will limit myself to the following:

I think that by "intensity" you are referring to something like dynamics -- one note being played louder than another note. I saw some of your old videos some time back. In one you refer to rules which I think are of the kind: 4/4 = loud soft middle soft, 3/4 = loud soft soft - which would create a very mechanical and artificial way of playing. In that video you liken it to a funny sounding sentence, if we did the same thing. Is this going in the right direction in regard to what you mean by "intensity"?

Quote
Do modern teachers ....

I see a possible problem here - there is no overall trend across the world, or even in any single (western) country. I know that in the former Soviet Union, there was one school (maybe two?) which had one standard, one norm, and in such a world one can see what the trend is. But if you expect a similar model worldwide, it may not exist. At best, you might find a variety of general patterns.

(leaving floor to teachers)
Posted By: malkin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

Please advise.


Here is my advice to you:
Stop pretending that you want advice.
If you want something, ask specifically for what you want.
If you are advertising your services, pay for advertising.

My advice to the forum:
Don't feed the troll.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
[quote=Vladimir Dounin]

Quote
Do modern teachers ....

I see a possible problem here - there is no overall trend across the world, or even in any single (western) country. I know that in the former Soviet Union, there was one school (maybe two?) which had one standard, one norm, and in such a world one can see what the trend is. But if you expect a similar model worldwide, it may not exist. At best, you might find a variety of general patterns.

(leaving floor to teachers)


Here is an obvious for me clash between the Western propaganda and the bitter reality in all known to me Western countries.

In Music they are much-much more totalitarian than in the former USSR.

Only one example (beyond the "soldiery" accent on beat "one" of ALL Western classical pianists and even of the majority of vocalists):

In Canada, there is only one for all of Canada, not at all PUBLIC, but an ordinary privately owned school - a monopolist, which is only allowed to conduct examinations throughout Canada. Why was this privately owned school given such a privilege, in what exactly is it better than any other school in the country?

When I wanted to rent a concert hall from them for my recital, the Deputy Director suddenly told me: "You will lose your money, if you rent our concert hall". I asked: "Why?!"

He answered: "Because everyone knows that our music is very bad and never will come for your concert in our hall".

I was very thankful for his warning and rented George Weston concert hall instead.
Posted By: ebonykawai

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 07:12 PM

I think Daylight Savings Time threw us into some weird, parallel dimension, LOL.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/12/19 11:53 PM

Alexandr, I'll give this a try, and hope you'll give a try for understanding.

Suppose I'm in a new place and want to find out what their drinks are like. I walk into a paint shop, taste brown paint, and report the chocolate milk here tastes horrid and makes you sick. The wrong question in the wrong place will yield strange answers. smile

It seems that you have been looking for where there are central standards, central examinations, and you found one single one - I suppose the RCM. Some people want to go to a "standard" and so they work with this. But nobody has to go to any standard, and so the rest don't. Any knowledge I have is from direct experience. Of the people I know who got into music at the university level:
- One got educated in the far north, where one teacher took it upon herself to bring music to students. There were not central exams, no programs. He auditioned at a small university on one reed instrument, and was persuaded to enroll with another that he also played, because it was more rare - few students played this instrument.
- Another got into an arts magnet program by audition. University entry again was by audition. In that school, the RCM program was discussed and so I heard the opinions. Generally it was seen as impractical, and the theory part not reflecting the reality of music.

My own experience with music can be summarized as a big fat zero. How do you think I ended up trying to learn to read music, learning my "alphabet", in my mid-fifties, when I have had had a lifelong interest in music? When I taught public school in the early 1980's, I can't remember more than "appreciation" for music - having children sing some Christmas songs. Later with Harris' reform there was some token recognition of music. But I had to go on-line and hunt up a trombonist from some American orchestra to help the neighbour kid who got to lug home a trombone, but his "music teacher" had no idea how to play it. And then was asked to teach another neighbour girl who was keen on music, but the "recorder education" they got didn't go past memorizing fingers.

There is no central standard of any kind here. There are people with all kinds of backgrounds trying to teach, or trying to make a living teaching who have no business teaching, and some who actually know something. The students being "taught" by the inept teachers become the next line of teachers. And vast numbers of kids never, ever, have a chance for any kind of private lessons.

In regard to "Canada" - it is a vast country. In fact, Ontario itself could swallow up several European countries. Toronto has a way of appearing to be the center of the universe, and if you're there, you think it's all of Canada. Have you gone to the far north? Have you been out west, or in the eastern provinces. Are you sure that you know what is going on in this country - or more likely, just your corner, and the people you encounter.

For "propaganda" to exist, there has to be a central narrative that is officially put forth. There is NO narrative. If you seek to find a standard anything, then you are tasting brown paint trying to find the flavour of chocolate.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/13/19 01:48 AM

Correction to my last post- That should be Vladimir - not Alexandr. No idea how that came about, sorry.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/13/19 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by keystring


There is no central standard of any kind here. There are people with all kinds of backgrounds trying to teach, or trying to make a living teaching who have no business teaching, and some who actually know something. The students being "taught" by the inept teachers become the next line of teachers. And vast numbers of kids never, ever, have a chance for any kind of private lessons.

In regard to "Canada" - it is a vast country. In fact, Ontario itself could swallow up several European countries. Toronto has a way of appearing to be the center of the universe, and if you're there, you think it's all of Canada. Have you gone to the far north? Have you been out west, or in the eastern provinces. Are you sure that you know what is going on in this country - or more likely, just your corner, and the people you encounter.

For "propaganda" to exist, there has to be a central narrative that is officially put forth. There is NO narrative. If you seek to find a standard anything, then you are tasting brown paint trying to find the flavour of chocolate.


There is Internet now and official info from RCM and educational authorities. So, I do need to travel across the Canada to know the situation with music exams.

If you want to get an extra credit for university you are forced to go to only RCM exams. Nothing else is recognized for credits except Oxford college (UK) but it is only one time a year and more expensive. If government wants to set standards then these standards should be set for teachers rather than for students.

In USSR any diploma of any school had officially equal rights and value. Of course, Diploma of Moscow conservatory made better impression on potential employers than Diploma of some unknown to them school. But no one dared to discriminate you if you had education credentials from some other school. By default it was meant that your personal ability to do job is above any Diploma and can be verified easily without paper work.

In 51 year since 1968, my Diploma with Distinction from Moscow conservatory was seen and read ONLY ONE TIME by the rector of the named above Conservatory Mr. Sveshnikov , when I asked him to give me some paper for Military service. Never before and never after. I never met any person, who wants to look at paper instead of listening to music.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/13/19 06:37 PM

This is for members reading the confusing "information" about Canada.

All universities anywhere in the world will have admission requirements - prerequisites - because without the necessary background, you will be unable to follow your professors or complete assignments. Typically for university music programs such as a performance degree, students will have to audition, their academic grades should be good, and "sufficient knowledge of theory" is asked for. The theory part can be ascertained through an exam. In fact, both people I know who were admitted to university for music, wrote a theory exam in situ the day of their audition. Imagine someone starting course work for a music degree, who cannot located C on a staff. Sadly, that is quite possible. This is only common sense, and I am sure the same everywhere.

There are high school credits (in Europe they are called ECs and seem to have become standardized), and the RCM exams do count as a high school music credit, which is unusual. However, it is not mandatory for admission to university. I did notice one Toronto university (York?) made RCM mandatory as admission prerequisite, but one institution does not indicate policies within one country or even province.

The "diploma" from the Moscow Conservatory would likely be considered a university degree --- the word "diploma" is often mistranslated. You cannot mix together credits counting toward university admission, and graduation from a conservatory being equivalent to graduation with a music degree. They are different things.

In terms to admission to such conservatories in Russia, it would be good to hear from people in that country (presently or formerly). I know that very often children were vetted very early for talent, and attended the "arts gymnasium" (a "gymnasium" is a special kind of public school in many European countries, tending toward more academic subjects leading to eligibility to study at university, rather than apprenticeships, or "technical colleges - arts gymnasium specializes toward the arts.). Having spoken to people from the former Soviet Union, even those who did not attend arts gymnasium seem to have had a much fuller education in the arts, including, music, then we have here. As I mentioned, I had a vivid interest in music from an early age, and was 55 years old before I learned to read music. In this country it is necessary to specify at admission that students have some knowledge of music theory, or you can indeed end up with applicants who, when seeing sheet music with one sharp, won't know that it can represent G major or E minor.

This has gone way off topic, but if information is given, it should be more or less correct.

-----------
Yes, you can get information about the RCM on the Internet. But if you are going to inform people about students are taught throughout a country, you first have to have an idea about this, and you will not get that on the Internet.
Posted By: AZNpiano

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/13/19 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If government wants to set standards then these standards should be set for teachers rather than for students.

That makes no sense to me. Standards ARE for students. It's up to the individual teacher to do the teaching. Some teachers teach TO the standards (coverage only), and other teachers teach MUSIC, which will include the standards--maybe not in the prescribed order.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
In 51 year since 1968, my Diploma with Distinction from Moscow conservatory was seen and read ONLY ONE TIME

You need to get out more. Or maybe you should just enjoy your retirement.
Posted By: malkin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by keystring

This has gone way off topic....


While I am never one to oppose a good off topic tangent, in the case of this thread it seems particularly beneficial. In fact, I would say that the further from the topic of the original post, the better.
Posted By: AprilE

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 04:26 AM

This is my favourite of all the PianoWorld forums, but I’ve never laughed so much with it as in the past couple of weeks. It seemed to start with Gary's "this place is really dead" post....
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by keystring

This has gone way off topic....


While I am never one to oppose a good off topic tangent, in the case of this thread it seems particularly beneficial. In fact, I would say that the further from the topic of the original post, the better.

Could not agree more. wink
Posted By: Blague

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

I do research on methods of teaching INTENSITY in nowadays schools and ability/disability of modern musicians to detect differences between different, opposite patterns of INTENSITY in MELODY (all the rest in music is out of my focus at the moment).

In the past it was impossible for me to post music along with my posts. So, all discussions were senseless. Now I have this opportunity and learn: how to communicate with other musicians on this topic?


What does this have to do with you lying to us all in your original post about a couple of students going to a concert? I'm still waiting on you to give your opinions on the various songs you link, and start a proper discussion. C'mon, now.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by keystring

-----------
Yes, you can get information about the RCM on the Internet. But if you are going to inform people about students are taught throughout a country, you first have to have an idea about this, and you will not get that on the Internet.


I am talking not about the admission to Music department of universities. The parents of music students of school age are interested first of all in School Credits for university (any faculty) admission. If all the rest kids have 13 credits after their High School program, the music students, who managed to pass grade 8 have an extra credit, and for grade 10 - another one.

In this way, you can get 15 credits instead of usual 13 credits thanks to your piano classes. I had students, who immediately got scholarship, FREE accommodation at hostel and even two meals a day in USA just for their 15 credits.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:55 AM

[quote=Blague

What does this have to do with you lying to us all in your original post about a couple of students going to a concert? I'm still waiting on you to give your opinions on the various songs you link, and start a proper discussion. C'mon, now.
[/quote]

1. I used a typical language and style of textbooks for Math ('Two my friends went with me for fishing. Peter caught 3 fishes, John caught two times more than Peter, and I caught three times less than two my friends together. What is our summary catch?")
As you know, math was just PART OF MUSIC according to Pythagoras. And Math is substantial part of Music nowadays.

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?

2. You have surprised me with your words: " you to give your opinions on the various songs you link". i was asking for YOUR opinion on these links to start discussion because I am pretty sure that for many musicians rough accent on beat "ONE" is a norm. For me it is a "cancer tumor" in modern classic performing that diverted public from classical music.

The same people were standing many days and nights to listen to new oratorio by Handel or new opera by Verdi. I saw (and took part in it for small money - all students did it substituting somebody in a queue in night time) THREE YEARS long queue (simply on the street, without any roof and wind protection) for Cliburn's concert in Moscow. People can not change their mind towards great music so fast. But musician can and did it with this sad result.

Which kind of opinion do you want from me? I will answer ANY questions.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If government wants to set standards then these standards should be set for teachers rather than for students.

That makes no sense to me. Standards ARE for students. It's up to the individual teacher to do the teaching. Some teachers teach TO the standards (coverage only), and other teachers teach MUSIC, which will include the standards--maybe not in the prescribed order.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
In 51 year since 1968, my Diploma with Distinction from Moscow conservatory was seen and read ONLY ONE TIME

You need to get out more. Or maybe you should just enjoy your retirement.


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.
Posted By: pianist_lady

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.
Posted By: NobleHouse

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by pianist_lady
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.


Amen to that sentiment, pianist lady!
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

This is all backwards. YOU have everything backwards. First of all, there are "hand positions", not "posture of your hands", but this is about English, and I don't fault your use of English, which quite obviously is strained.

There is NOTHING I spend more time on with all students than getting the hands and body right, because without this you can damage your hands and body, so no matter how well you play ultimately you may not be able to play at all, because of crippling habits.

If you assume from that that I or any other teacher ignores everything else, the music, you are simply wrong.

If you are suggesting that there are a lot of "teachers" who really know very little and who harm students, I could not agree more.
Quote

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

That's pretty obvious. It's also impossible, because the average teacher is average.

When an extremely talented student is in the hands of an average teacher, the results are unfortunate, but that's just the way the world works.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by pianist_lady
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.


Why then you do not want and do not let me TO HELP OTHER MUSICIANS? Is it only your monopoly? Why do you discriminate me in this case?

I never wanted TO TEST YOU. I do not know and will never know YOU, so you personally do not exist for me. However, I wanted TO TEST MY METHOD PUBLICLY with YOU together. Not because of your personality but because of your FUNCTION here as my opponent.

Call your self in any way, tell any story about your self - it does not matter. Only one thing is important: that you are an expert in music education and you CAN test and comment on my method. I repeat: who are you, where are you etc. - it does not matter in our situation.

I do my job - I brought here my method. You are skeptical - this is wonderful, because I have a lot of enthusiasts around me. Therefore all of them are not credible, when you ARE CREDIBLE for me and anyone else in the world. Just because you hate this idea - thank you very much for your hatred, and let us start test.
Posted By: AZNpiano

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

You missed my point completely.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

I disagree. You can have THE MOST FANTASTIC piano teacher on Earth working with THE DUMBEST kids and THE MOST IGNORANT parents, and the results will be equally putrid.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

This is all backwards. YOU have everything backwards. First of all, there are "hand positions", not "posture of your hands", but this is about English, and I don't fault your use of English, which quite obviously is strained.

There is NOTHING I spend more time on with all students than getting the hands and body right, because without this you can damage your hands and body, so no matter how well you play ultimately you may not be able to play at all, because of crippling habits.

If you assume from that that I or any other teacher ignores everything else, the music, you are simply wrong.

If you are suggesting that there are a lot of "teachers" who really know very little and who harm students, I could not agree more.
Quote

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

That's pretty obvious. It's also impossible, because the average teacher is average.

When an extremely talented student is in the hands of an average teacher, the results are unfortunate, but that's just the way the world works.


1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

2. I saw several young girls with their 4th and 5th fingers
bent in the direction of the thumb.

If I had been the parent of these girls spoiled for life, I would have brought their piano teacher to court.
It was he who disfigured them, forcing their immature fingers to "keep beautiful, like in the picture"
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/14/19 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

You missed my point completely.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

I disagree. You can have THE MOST FANTASTIC piano teacher on Earth working with THE DUMBEST kids and THE MOST IGNORANT parents, and the results will be equally putrid.


I had and have a few autistic students who are unqualified for public schools. They are considered mentally handicapped.
One of them brought the calendar with his face proudly (Printed by some medical society in Swiss). He got 2nd place in local piano competition. ALL of them can be taught with the right approach.

i do not say the same about the parents, of course. Here I am on your side.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/18/19 06:08 PM

I was super busy when these posts came in, and wanted to respond in general.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

We cannot tell someone's teaching through a few words in an ad, and we can easily project on the writer what we think he wants to say. As a student I'd contact this teacher and ask, "Can you explain why you said that?" and listen carefully - then have a trial lesson, watching and listening carefully. The other way around, I'd find it very difficult to set out in a few words what I do and how I work. I am interested in music teaching and have learned from various teachers about what they do. It can take months (at least) to even get an idea. An ad won't tell us much.

Your imaginary advert has a few possibilities:
- It may be, as you fear (from your later example), that this teacher wants to mould students into "hold a ball" strict shapes, possibly crippling them.
- It may also be that this teacher finds guidance in the physical side of playing to be sadly lacking, and has seen unfortunate results through this.

I would avoid the first teacher, but would want to know more about the second. Many people teach, but few do it well. There are many sides to learning to play the piano, and many skills to acquire.

What you are actually trying to promote is hard to get at, and nobody can be "against" you method, because we can't really get at what that is. By reading here and there I've gotten the idea the "correct notes in correct time" -- playing what's on the page rather than a vague imitation via Youtube -- is one of your ideas. Then there is "intensity" which is not just dynamics, but something more subtle that you have not managed to define, but may have elements such as articulation and other technical things we can do with music to lend it expression. I want to bring this back to skills.

If as a student I work with you, and you want me to bring out certain notes in a given way, then I must be technically able to do so. The use of the body ("posture of hands" as a single thing is silly) is part of it. I need to be able to have a sense of counting and timing, and this has to be developed. If you started to learn as a young child you may take this for granted, like holding a pencil is a thing we take for granted. If, as you suggest somewhere, a student is to follow a score while listening to his own recording, that student first has to be able to read music and understand all of it: pitch,timing, meter etc. CONVERSELY - if a student here submits his or her playing, you have to know what that student's abilities are. If any of those underlying skills are missing, because of how they have been taught, or where they are in their development, this has to be taken into account.

That, in summary, were my thoughts.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/18/19 06:13 PM

I have not run into any teaching that says you must always stress beat one in any measure of any music. The only thing a bit related is that when studying basic theory, simple meter will be taught in the manner of 4/4 = strong weak middle weak - as a kind of generic idea. But in actual music, I don't think a good teacher would push this kind of thing for every piece of music: it depends on what is in the music. You have mentioned this "beat one" idea in many posts. I don't know how common this actually is.
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/18/19 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

I believe he did. I believe he was able to play so well because he was a genius. He did so in spite of horrendous habits. And I believe he learned those habits from someone, or someone did not tell him early that there was a better way to play. I believe his physical habits shortened his life.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/18/19 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

I believe he did. I believe he was able to play so well because he was a genius. He did so in spite of horrendous habits. And I believe he learned those habits from someone, or someone did not tell him early that there was a better way to play. I believe his physical habits shortened his life.

I think it is dangerous to look at how someone else did something that was unique to them and assume that if you copy that, you'll be just as good.

Each person has a unique physiology and while there are certain basic techniques that are used for playing piano, there are other things that vary from person to person - like bench height and fingering, and even what their hands look like when playing something.

A good teacher knows how to assist a student in finding what works best for them without risk of injury.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/19/19 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
I was super busy when these posts came in, and wanted to respond in general.
[quote=Vladimir Dounin]When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".


What you are actually trying to promote is hard to get at, and nobody can be "against" you method, because we can't really get at what that is. By reading here and there I've gotten the idea the "correct notes in correct time" -- playing what's on the page rather than a vague imitation via Youtube -- is one of your ideas. Then there is "intensity" which is not just dynamics, but something more subtle that you have not managed to define, but may have elements such as articulation and other technical things we can do with music to lend it expression. I want to bring this back to skills.



That, in summary, were my thoughts.



I published these my rules a few times already in 2006-2007. However, I lost any interest to spend my time after I understood that everything that I suggest will be reduced to verbal exchange only. Now, after 12 years it so easy for everyone to make and send recordings.

Imagine that this is a medical site. I suggest testing my new headache treatment device, assuring that the headache disappears within 2 minutes of using the device.

In response, no one wants to test the device. Without any test, they just vote that the device is useless.

I have already explained several times that I have a very effective TEACHING method. But I never said that I have a set of magic words that replaces the work on the student and on his/her music. No one set of magic words can substitute playing and listening to real music.

To demonstrate the method and its impact, I need a real student (without a name, address, appearance, etc. - I absolutely do not need it). Only in this case will the effect of the method be seen. Here should be student's playing BEFORE the lesson, and then playing AFTER the lesson (when short but effective assignment is done).


In my ads, I indicate: "Immediate result during a one-hour lesson or you do not pay at all".
But I do not promise anyone any result from simply reading my last post on "piano forum"
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/19/19 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
I published these my rules a few times already in 2006-2007. ....

You quoted part of what I wrote in sincerity. You then copied over your response to Vmishka on Pianostreet. That person provided you with a recording. What you posted here obviously is not a response to me, since it's a copy of your message to someone else.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=65596.0 (reply no. 24)
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/19/19 12:53 PM

I was responding to your imaginary teacher advertising "hand posture", and thoughts about that. If you wish to respond, please respond to what I wrote about. They are legitimate concerns.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/19/19 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by keystring
I was responding to your imaginary teacher advertising "hand posture", and thoughts about that. If you wish to respond, please respond to what I wrote about. They are legitimate concerns.

Keystring, I always appreciate your reasoned responses. However, I think this may be misplaced. Copying and pasting a response to another person in another thread is not a way to engage in conversation on a forum.

In fact, I think the OP has made it very clear he's not here to really engage in discussion at all, except to talk about what he thinks is the only right way to do things.

I understand completely having personal convictions about something and wanting to share what you feel is very important with others. But who, when they see a great movie, says to his acquaintances, "You must love this movie and no other is acceptable. No, I will not talk about a movie you love, only the movie I want to talk about," and receives any positive response?

There is a clear lack of respect for anyone in this forum who dares to ask questions, let alone disagrees with the OP. Which is unfortunate, because perhaps it is indeed a very good "movie," but no one will see it now because of his heavy-handedness.
Posted By: keystring

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/19/19 02:47 PM

Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?

Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?


Dear Keystring,

No 1.

If person A says that 2+2 makes 7 and person B says that 2+2 makes 7 as well, why I can not answer both of them with the same words stating that 2+2, in my opinion, is very close to "4"?

I was polite enough to change name of the site. It is a pity that I can not address to you by the name on this forum. I can not understand: what people are afraid of? Why they are hiding there real names, if they do not do and say anything malignant?

Our problem is our opposite goals. I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good and I am also a very bad person.


What are you afraid of? I do not persuade anyone to lose their virginity, sell drugs or rob banks. I suggest to make a recording of ANY music and bring here. For example, "Mary had a little lamb", or the anthem of your country played by the ONE FINGER, as I showed it recently as an example in "Revolutionary New Interpretation". I played for you "Happy Birthday" with one finger for clarity - answer me with the same.

I DON'T NEED your GOOD performance. In the case of a perfect performance, I simply cannot correct mistakes due to the fact that they simply do not exist in this performance. I NEED a BAD performance to demonstrate my method.

No 2.

I know about your suffering because you "know what to do, but you cannot do for purely physical reasons." I sympathize with your torment, but I do not believe you.

Because 99% of my students came to me with exactly the same suffering as yours. And 100% of my students forgot about these torments forever, when they learned what exactly they should do during the performance of given musical work.

Let's agree on a deal:

You bring here your recording of the hymn of your country played with one finger. Play AS BAD AS YOU CAN. I give you instructions and you follow them.

If you say here at least once that you understand my instructions, but you cannot fulfill them for purely physical reasons, I publicly apologize for everything written here and solemnly announce that I do not understand anything in music and in teaching.


Take a deal?

I invite EVERYONE to this deal.
Posted By: Suni

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 08:40 AM

Sorry for butting in, but maybe you need to find students, not teachers for your experiment. There is a seperate adult beginners forum.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?

Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?


Dear Keystring,

No 1.

If person A says that 2+2 makes 7 and person B says that 2+2 makes 7 as well, why I can not answer both of them with the same words stating that 2+2, in my opinion, is very close to "4"?

I was polite enough to change name of the site. It is a pity that I can not address to you by the name on this forum. I can not understand: what people are afraid of? Why they are hiding there real names, if they do not do and say anything malignant?

Our problem is our opposite goals. I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good and I am also a very bad person.


What are you afraid of? I do not persuade anyone to lose their virginity, sell drugs or rob banks. I suggest to make a recording of ANY music and bring here. For example, "Mary had a little lamb", or the anthem of your country played by the ONE FINGER, as I showed it recently as an example in "Revolutionary New Interpretation". I played for you "Happy Birthday" with one finger for clarity - answer me with the same.

I DON'T NEED your GOOD performance. In the case of a perfect performance, I simply cannot correct mistakes due to the fact that they simply do not exist in this performance. I NEED a BAD performance to demonstrate my method.

No 2.

I know about your suffering because you "know what to do, but you cannot do for purely physical reasons." I sympathize with your torment, but I do not believe you.

Because 99% of my students came to me with exactly the same suffering as yours. And 100% of my students forgot about these torments forever, when they learned what exactly they should do during the performance of given musical work.

Let's agree on a deal:

You bring here your recording of the hymn of your country played with one finger. Play AS BAD AS YOU CAN. I give you instructions and you follow them.

If you say here at least once that you understand my instructions, but you cannot fulfill them for purely physical reasons, I publicly apologize for everything written here and solemnly announce that I do not understand anything in music and in teaching.


Take a deal?

I invite EVERYONE to this deal.

The problem - one of them - is that first of all, you have been asked very specific questions about your technique, and challenged on them. But instead of further explaining and defending your method, you then accuse people of trying to "not give you the opportunity to show your method in action." What have you been doing this whole time with your recordings? We listened and disputed what we feel is out of line, and agreed with what we felt was correct.

This is all a very common tactic used by people who are narcissistic. They have the only True Answer to everyone's problem with ______. Anyone who does not listen to them and follow them like a puppy is deemed an idiot, crazy, or a part of some conspiracy to keep the True Answer from getting out and actually helping the world with ______.

How about be respectful of people who have minds that think for themselves and are rightfully asking questions to understand and perhaps we all can arrive at a clear picture of what you're saying - and <gasp> you might learn something from what others have to say as well! That's what a forum is all about.
Posted By: Andamento

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 02:29 PM

Vladimir,

Some of the problem may be a language barrier, but you are still doing what Ken Knapp warned you against. This is taken from a thread of yours in the Pianist Corner, where you quote Ken Knapp's message to you:

Quote
Yes, I CAN HELP everyone. I followed your link and invited this poster to take from me a public lesson (as it was described many times already).

However administrator of this site prohibited me to do so.

I quote him below:

"Self Promotion [by Ken Knapp]

Hello.

You might not be aware but there are forum rules against promoting your business on the forums. While we sometimes allow people to share things related to their business they are giving away for free, I believe your offerings are crossing the line.

While you offer your services for free, I also see you want to use the forum for those lessons..

Quote

I invite you to take on line lessons from me right HERE, on this forum. My advantages:

1. I teach FREE (it is just demonstration of my NEW for you and other teachers way to teach..

2. You get the results IMMEDIATELY in a very first 30-60 minutes.

Details in my numerous posts here and on other sites.


These forums are hosted at considerable expense and are not here to provide a means for people to conduct their business, free or otherwise. They are here for discussion and paid advertising.

Thank you!"


Note especially the part of the quote I put in bold print:

"These forums are hosted at considerable expense and are not here to provide a means for people to conduct their business, free or otherwise. They are here for discussion and paid advertising."

Even after that warning of Ken's, you are still trying to conduct business here. You are attempting to strong-arm people into taking your tests, and labeling people as opponents (your response to PianistLady on March 14):

Quote
I never wanted TO TEST YOU. I do not know and will never know YOU, so you personally do not exist for me. However, I wanted TO TEST MY METHOD PUBLICLY with YOU together. Not because of your personality but because of your FUNCTION here as my opponent.


...insinuating people are scared to do what you want them to do (your response to Keystring last night):

Quote
I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good... What are you afraid of?


...and implying that I (and presumably others) are people who don't love beauty in music because we're not submitting to your teaching and/or are not giving the answers you want to hear (your reply to me in the Pianist Corner March 12):

Quote
Is an ability to play beautifully and being loved by audience is not important for you?


Of course aesthetic beauty in music is important, but neither you nor any other individual has the one true method for achieving beautiful tone.

Stop trying to teach here. You reposted Ken's warning to you on March 15, but since then, you've shown that you are still trying to teach forum members, anyway, as evidenced by your reply to Keystring yesterday:

Quote
I have already explained several times that I have a very effective TEACHING method. But I never said that I have a set of magic words that replaces the work on the student and on his/her music. No one set of magic words can substitute playing and listening to real music.

To demonstrate the method and its impact, I need a real student (without a name, address, appearance, etc. - I absolutely do not need it). Only in this case will the effect of the method be seen. Here should be student's playing BEFORE the lesson, and then playing AFTER the lesson (when short but effective assignment is done).


In my ads, I indicate: "Immediate result during a one-hour lesson or you do not pay at all".


[Bold emphasis mine.] We are not your students, and Piano World is not a place to be testing your methods. Period.

Posted By: thepianoplayer416

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 05:36 PM

Do the 2 students have to play the same G Major Minuet? You can probably get the 2 to take turn playing the Major and the Minor Minuet 1 after another. The original Petzold G major & minor Minuets were written as a pair so you can get the 2 to work on both pieces. The one who sounded better playing the G Major will play that piece. The other will get the G Minor.
Posted By: Morodiene

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Do the 2 students have to play the same G Major Minuet? You can probably get the 2 into taking turn playing the Major and the Minor Minuet 1 after another. The original Petzold G major & minor Minuets were written as a pair so you can get the 2 to work on both pieces. The one who sounded better playing the G Major will play that piece. The other will get the G Minor.

Not a bad compromise, if the thread were actually involving two students. But it was the OP's attempt to compare two versions of his own playing for other reasons. No students with duplicate pieces were harmed in the making of this thread.
Posted By: Gary D.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/20/19 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Andamento

[Bold emphasis mine.] We are not your students, and Piano World is not a place to be testing your methods. Period.


I'd like to echo that a thousand times. This "noise" makes things so uncomfortable for everyone that I think no one wants to post.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/23/19 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Suni
Sorry for butting in, but maybe you need to find students, not teachers for your experiment. There is a seperate adult beginners forum.


Thank you for your advice. But I do not need students because they are flexible and always agree with me. I need teachers, preferably angry and aggressive towards me in their believe that I am wrong.

Only with such opponents I have chance to prove my way to teach in convincing for everyone way. I need some hard skeptics for test.
Posted By: Vladimir Dounin

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/23/19 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Andamento
Vladimir,

Some of the problem may be a language barrier, but you are still doing what Ken Knapp warned you against. This is taken from a thread of yours in the Pianist Corner, where you quote Ken Knapp's message to you:

Quote
Yes, I CAN HELP everyone. I followed your link and invited this poster to take from me a public lesson (as it was described many times already).

However administrator of this site prohibited me to do so.

I quote him below:

"Self Promotion [by Ken Knapp]

Hello.

You might not be aware but there are forum rules against promoting your business on the forums. While we sometimes allow people to share things related to their business they are giving away for free, I believe your offerings are crossing the line.

While you offer your services for free, I also see you want to use the forum for those lessons..

Quote

I invite you to take on line lessons from me right HERE, on this forum. My advantages:

1. I teach FREE (it is just demonstration of my NEW for you and other teachers way to teach..

2. You get the results IMMEDIATELY in a very first 30-60 minutes.

Details in my numerous posts here and on other sites.


These forums are hosted at considerable expense and are not here to provide a means for people to conduct their business, free or otherwise. They are here for discussion and paid advertising.

Thank you!"


Note especially the part of the quote I put in bold print:

"These forums are hosted at considerable expense and are not here to provide a means for people to conduct their business, free or otherwise. They are here for discussion and paid advertising."

Even after that warning of Ken's, you are still trying to conduct business here. You are attempting to strong-arm people into taking your tests, and labeling people as opponents (your response to PianistLady on March 14):

Quote
I never wanted TO TEST YOU. I do not know and will never know YOU, so you personally do not exist for me. However, I wanted TO TEST MY METHOD PUBLICLY with YOU together. Not because of your personality but because of your FUNCTION here as my opponent.


...insinuating people are scared to do what you want them to do (your response to Keystring last night):

Quote
I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good... What are you afraid of?


...and implying that I (and presumably others) are people who don't love beauty in music because we're not submitting to your teaching and/or are not giving the answers you want to hear (your reply to me in the Pianist Corner March 12):

Quote
Is an ability to play beautifully and being loved by audience is not important for you?


Of course aesthetic beauty in music is important, but neither you nor any other individual has the one true method for achieving beautiful tone.

Stop trying to teach here. You reposted Ken's warning to you on March 15, but since then, you've shown that you are still trying to teach forum members, anyway, as evidenced by your reply to Keystring yesterday:

Quote
I have already explained several times that I have a very effective TEACHING method. But I never said that I have a set of magic words that replaces the work on the student and on his/her music. No one set of magic words can substitute playing and listening to real music.

To demonstrate the method and its impact, I need a real student (without a name, address, appearance, etc. - I absolutely do not need it). Only in this case will the effect of the method be seen. Here should be student's playing BEFORE the lesson, and then playing AFTER the lesson (when short but effective assignment is done).


In my ads, I indicate: "Immediate result during a one-hour lesson or you do not pay at all".


[Bold emphasis mine.] We are not your students, and Piano World is not a place to be testing your methods. Period.



If "Piano Teachers Forum" can not test piano teaching method, according to you, what is the value of its members in your opinion?
Posted By: Andamento

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/26/19 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If "Piano Teachers Forum" can not test piano teaching method, according to you, what is the value of its members in your opinion?


I don't determine the rules at this forum, so it's not "according to [me]" that this forum isn't the place to administer tests.

Someone suggested you start a website. An excellent idea. You can set up all the testing you want there, for those who voluntarily come to your site.

The value of the members at this forum lies in, among many other things, the varied perspectives presented on approaching musical matters. There is no one-size-fits-all aspect to musicianship or other things we discuss.

If you come here with an I-know-it-all-and-you-need-to-learn-from-me perspective, you will gain nothing of value.

But take time to read others' thoughts and consider them, and I am confident you'll find the valuable gems here. smile
Posted By: Andamento

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! - 03/26/19 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Andamento

[Bold emphasis mine.] We are not your students, and Piano World is not a place to be testing your methods. Period.


I'd like to echo that a thousand times.


Thank you very much, Gary. I appreciate your words more than I could ever convey.
© 2019 Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums