I would like to get an idea on how many piano teachers belong to any sort of teacher's organization/guild, and whether you attend annual conventions (ie, MTNA or MENC or MYC and so forth).

With these new Lomence pianos we represent across North America, would it be worthwhile to exhibit and attend any teacher gatherings that take place throughout the continent?

Thank you in advance for your input.

i used to be a waitress at a restaurant near a convention hotel.. Let me tell you the MTNA conventions were the best.. the happiest participants ever. They were so fun to wait on because they were so excited and having fun.

What's the price point on Lomence pianos?

Looking at them briefly, it seems they have an unusual construction, which means teachers (who are on a budget) are going to be wary of purchasing them, especially if they're expensive.

If they're not priced competitively with Yamaha and Boston, it's going to be a tough sell to teachers.

That being said, MTNA is probably the largest convention, although NCKP gets a decent number to attend.

MENC is largely made up of public school teachers, many of whom make purchasing decisions regarding pianos, so if Lomence pianos are inexpensive and rugged enough to survive in a public school, it may be worth attending.

Thanks for the input!
Sounds like the conventions might be a great route to help build brand awareness and let teachers get a feel of the piano and its quality.

The pianos are priced between $8995 to $9995 as MSRP and are either 48.5" or 50". Slightly lower than Yamaha U1's I believe.

Schools are definitely a significant market for Lomence pianos.
If you've seen a few of the pictures and think about young children in a music class setting, why on earth would a school use a black or brown traditional-looking piano? In every classroom, the walls are saturated with visuals that are appropriate according to the level of the students in that room. Why not have a piano that will keep kids excited about going to music class and wanting to get their own chance at trying out the cool piano.

The larger conferences generally have piano displays. We even have them at the state level conferences. However, your best bet may be to head to NAMM and if your firm has a European rep, Musikmesse.

FWIW, looking at the current offerings of Lomence pianos, I consider none of them suitable as a serious studio teaching instrument. Of course, the instrument has to be a quality instrument, but only a few makes offer a case configuration which is amenable to teaching. By this I mean, the piano desk configuration. The ideal is the one Steinway came up with and implemented in their Boston model UP-118S. Music, notes, paper, pencils, markers, etc., can be supported the full width of the instrument. A few other manufacturers make similarly useful instruments.

Thanks John

We did in fact, debute these pianos at NAMM this past January!
See photos at www.facebook.com/lomencepianos and check the photo albums.

I understand your input on the piano desk configuration. It is difficult to identify, but the music rest shoulder is quite deep, enough to easily accommodate a hymn book even. You probably refer moreso to the length not running left to right a more substantial distance, and this has been addressed with changes coming down the pipes so to speak.

As for quality, some of the 'piano greats' of the PTG (Pianos Technician Guild) sat down at NAMM 2012 to give them a try, and they were given stamps of approval in every case as capable, decent instruments.

Any others? Comments. Teacher convention feedback?

Thank you.

Not questioning the build quality, but as I will be at the Frankfurt Musikmesse in just a few short weeks, I'll certainly try one.

The piano market for teachers is very small compared to the overall market. Our needs are somewhat different, which is what I was addressing. BTW, I like to use my pencil to tap rhythms and beats on the arm of the piano as the student is playing. This causes spot wear and tear on the instrument. I suspect a teacher would be unlikely to feel quite so free with a "pretty" furniture type finish.

You might also check into MTAC's annual convention in California. It's pretty big and there are always piano dealers there. This year it will be in San Diego, end of June for 5 days.

www.mtac.org

I'd like to know from John what the Frankfurt Musikmesse is all about. Is it like NAMM? Or an MTNA Convention? That's a far distance to travel for a music convention.

In general, it's more of a trade show than anything else. I haven't attended any NAMMs so I cannot offer you a comparison between the two. I like to attend the Messe because it was something I frequently did while living in Germany. The emphasis in recent years has leaned more and more to stage production, so if you're a performing musician who gets into the technical aspect of production, or have a side business in the recording arts (as I record school groups, mostly as a favor to friends) this is a great place for getting ideas. But I suspect NAMM could serve the same purpose.

Last year, I was bitterly disappointed as the major European piano makers had boycotted the Messe. Why, I don't know. I was really nice to get hands on with all the brands, in all the different sizes. Hopefully, they'll be back this year. And this year will probably be my last, as long distance travel is becoming difficult for me. I also spent the better part of one day just perusing the music publishers. Lots of editions you've never heard of, with music from all over the world.

In general, my opinion is the average American or Canadian teacher would be better served making it to a state level or national level pedagogy conference, where the focus is strictly on the art of teaching. Many of these conferences have at least decent representation from N. American publishers and distributors of the larger European, S. American and Asian publishing houses.

Oh, I should probably add for newer PW members that I have family near Frankfurt, so my expenses aren't much more than traveling within the USA.

John, I'm intrigued by this comment since I'm forever dropping my pencils on the floor and joking that someone needs to invent a pull-out 'piano desk' for people like me! I had a look online at pictures of the UP-118S but can't tell what you're referring to; do you mind clarifying?

John, this is what I mean about the piano desk. As you can see, from right to left: students assignment notebook. Music we're working on. Wise saying by Bach. Plenty of room on top for necessary junk to entertain parents and siblings.

BTW, my teaching piano is just to the right; you can see my student syllabus guide in the lower RH corner of the pix.

I'm not at all interested in how a piano looks. All I'm interested in is how it functions and how it sounds.

Hi dumdumDiddle

The Frankfurt Musikmesse is Europe's version of the NAMM show.
There are actually three such shows covering the globe with a fourth initiating itself for the first time this year:
Europe - Frankfurt Musikmesse
North America - Winter NAMM Show (Anaheim, CA)
Asia - Shanghai Music Show - (Shanghai, China)
...and starting this year - NAMM Musikmesse Russia (Moscow)

I believe the USA NAMM Show is the only one which does not include any days at all for the general public. All the others offer 1 or 2 days open to anyone and everyone.

There is very little, if anything, directed specifically for instrumental teachers/instructors at any of these shows. It is more about the actual musical products, new models being introduced and seminars on the industry and doing business in the music industry.

Without intending any offense whatsoever, can I play devil's advocate and ask you Minniemay:

If you were to buy your child a bicycle would you also be 'not at all interested in how it looks?' Would your child adopt it conceptually as their own, be drawn to ride it often, and get the maximum enjoyment and satisfaction if it had no appeal to them as a child whatsoever?

In a general sense, why has the piano industry dug its heels in with no cosmetic evolutions for over 100 years? Why are we seeing so many other activities catch the interest of our children? For their functionality? .....or are these other activities more attractive then grandma's old clunker or that shiny black piano that a child perceives as the fine dining room furniture that no one is allowed to touch?

Back 100 years, pianos were cool - in the eyes of children also! Today, yes, many things compete for our children's attention. If pianos want to survive, they better be packaged in such a way that children of today will see them as fun and cool. If this happens, these children will grow up and purchase the more refined black grand piano. If this doesn't happen, a generation from now there will be no market for the traditional piano because no one knows or cares how to play it.

I'm not really interested in students who see the piano as a novel toy. Students who experience the wonder of music-making are the ones who stay in lessons. They don't need something fancy-looking to do that.

I get what you're saying.
I guess I am left wondering one thing - Assuming quality and price are equivalent, if a student were to come along who stays in lessons because they experience the wonder of music-making, but desires a piano that to them is very appealing because of its aesthetics, would this be alright in your eyes?

I really do appreciate this dialogue as I consider it an opportunity to obtain information much like a focus group would provide.

I wonder would parents think that it might be a gimmick and that the child might tire of what they might view as a "novelty" instrument?
I'm just thinking of a fad for coloured violins which happened when my daughter was learning violin. It didn't seem to last, where I am, anyway. Of course there wasn't the element of seeing inside. Not that there's much to see inside a violin.

When I was a kid, all I cared about was how fast my bike went and what I could DO with it.

Musicians care about what their instruments sound like. You are pandering to people who care more about furniture than music.

Your pitch is never going to impress serious musicians. So get over it.

I've been reading two threads. In one there is the implication that having a piano with an unusual color will make a child feel it is his very own, and that this will cause a child to practice. What gets a child to practice are:
- good guidance by a teacher, which makes practicing rewarding since there are cumulative small successes / enjoyment
- the right kind of support by parents
- an attitude by the child, which to some measure springs from the first
- a well functioning instrument
As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities. In recommending an instrument, I expect the teacher to be talking about durability, responsiveness to the touch of the young pianist, ease of maintenance. Now that window with the visible hammers: that is actually something which is both useful and interesting.

Then here, and in the classroom:

I'm trying to find the words why this bothers me so much. Are kids that shallow? Is the attraction to music mainly through bright shiny appearance? In addition, the problem is not that of trying out the piano, but of continuing to do things with that piano. The main thing again probably is maintenance and function: if it continues to work well, then it will remain attractive. Is durability mentioned anywhere? What keeps kids going probably consists of things such as a good program, enough quality instruments, small enough classroom size, good instruction by a competent teacher who gets proper support by the community and institution.

Visuals, in the classroom, are there for the purpose of instructing or remembering. The charts and whatever will have bright colors to highlight things. Desks and things students work with are more neutral. In some corners there is also a rethinking of this, because our young people are overstimulated, which is part of the reason for ADHD and hyperactivity. Does everything have to be "exciting"? How about engrossing?

What about the priorities of teachers and maybe the students and parents they serve? (What in fact are they?) Maybe this piano has features that match those priorities. It is a cool looking piano, and since pianos are not exactly invisible in the room, their appearance does play a role. But that's not all there is to a piano, and things such as practicing don't depend primarily on the appearance of the instrument.

I would just tell the teacher that s/he is exactly the kind of teacher I would avoid at all costs and leave it at that.

This thread is a total waste of time.

I find this absolutely fascinating and appreciate the honesty of everyone.
The reason why I am very interested in everyone's opinion on this is obviously to see if a viable market exists for such a piano.

Some information on the piano industry as a whole:
So many piano manufacturer's could not survive and have had to shut down. Others had no alternative but to allow themselves to be bought out by other companies to continue operating. The only reason for this is a weakening demand for the instrument.
Naturally if demand is diminishing, there is negative growth in this industry which suggest fewer people are buying pianos and taking lessons.

Yet, all of us are fully aware of the inherent benefits that are directly associated with learning to play the piano as plenty of studies have proven this over the years. North Americans have a heightened awareness of today's educational systems and that perhaps they could be improved - so generally parents with young children are indeed concerned about the academic and social growth of their kids. But still this new generation shows no interest in the common piano.

Am I correct in understanding that most of the replies have been coming from teachers who are perhaps very successful with a very low student turn-over rate..... but are quite stringent to begin with on who they accept as a student..? Only those students with a good support system from their parents and who personally appreciate music and enjoy it are being introduced and given a chance at the piano.
This is a diminishing group and so small compared to the total population that they would not even register as a percentage of the total.

What about those children whose parents overlook a traditional piano because they see it as old fashioned, and the children themselves who simply overlook a traditional piano because they've never been properly introduced to the creative artistry of music (whether classical, jazz, blues, pop, whichever)? How many musicians are out there but have never touched an instrument? Is there room to attract these people at a young age, thereby increasing the appreciation for music 20-30 years from now?

What other industries are doing well that still market a product that has not changed since the early 1900's and that still utilizes the same marketing approach? I dare all of you to give this some serious thought?
As teachers you may not be as involved in knowing how many pianos are bought and sold each year - that is not your primary concern. But it does help give some suggestions on what the market will be like 10-20-30 years from now for those in the music business.

I cannot believe that none of your points include that the child them self have fun while they are taking lessons. Your first point mentions enjoyment as a result of cumulative small successes, but as a grown professional, you could have cumulative small successes at your workplace which promote some sense of satisfaction - while actually really being very unhappy because your job is simply something you do not enjoy. You will either look for somewhere else to work or be miserable.
These students will quit lessons as soon as their parents allow them to.



What if it were true?

Gary I really want to make a connection between your vocation and what goes on in the piano industry.
Parents come in all the time and say "We're looking for a piano for little Johnny, but we don't want to spend much money because we don't know if he will like it or not".

Right here there is a huge problem, because like you, I recognize that the proper nurturing environment for the child to typically succeed is absent. But we are making a HUGE assumption and doing a disservice to the child by assuming on their own, they will never last and this simply is not necessarily true.
What I have come to realize is that for those types of buyers, it is only fair to the child to give them a piano that the child will take the most interest in. Anything less and they may stop because their peers think they are a geek for playing the piano (which they would never tell their parents, they would just say they don't like the lessons). Or they may stop right at the beginning because the piano was basically, excuse my language, a piece of junk to begin with.
Conversely, if their friends came over and saw a really cool piano, and the kid showed them what they've learned so far, and their peers encourage them and envy what they are doing - hmmm, a completely different result would be achieved.

I welcome all thoughts and comments. Please go easy

A child having fun is not contingent on the colour of his piano. Part of what creates that fun in the long run is having a good instructor who knows how to make that happen, and a good instrument so that he is not struggling with a piece of junk. The priorities of quality, maintenance, durability are still there. And these are the points that you are not mentioning at all. The colour being attractive certainly has merits, but not as the ONLY thing. A piano is an instrument - a device that you do something with - like the bicycle that you were writing about, or like a baseball bat, roller skates, hockey skates, art supplies. If they are well made then the child can do things with them and get better and better. If they are shoddy then the child experiences disappointment and frustration. If they are too expensive then they are inaccessible. If high maintenance then there is a problem too. Indirectly all of these things impinge upon fun. These qualities should be mentioned because they matter.

If this teacher does not believe that good guidance, and therefore success, is part of what creates practice habits, then the additional fact of piano colour would not take away from the lack of the first.

John, the telephone rings in the studio. A parent has just purchased a "piano" and wants lessons for Claudia. Partly curious, and partly professionally, I ask, "What did you get?" Do you know what I'm expecting to hear? Some brand of piano. Do you know what I generally hear? Some brand of electronic synthesizer. Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99. What exactly am I supposed to do? Tell them the salesman lied, this isn't a piano? Probably not a good idea, even though piano sales men and women have been hawking trash for five decades (at least). I should probably not be so harsh, as there are both good and not so good teachers (as this forum and many students who come here to gripe amply attest), but my experience is that piano salesmen come in all flavors, from highly professional, like at the Steinway dealership, to snake oil salesmen (I won't mention any brands).


Speaking for myself and myself only, I will take any and all students who commit to paying the tuition. However, it is true that my tuition point is such that it automatically weeds out unserious students. That's not the purpose of my tuition point. My tuition is set to cover my expenses and provide me with a living, not to encourage/discourage students, but the unintended consequence of having a professional salary for yourself is that you do become selective.

When you first posted on this forum, I assumed that you were interested in learning what piano teachers needed in the way of instruments. Obviously, I was mistaken. You'd probably get more helpful responses over in the pianist or beginning pianist forums.

John (newgeneration), as a piano I'd say it's kind of dorky, but also whimsical. Not great design, but the ability to see the hammers is fun. Good luck selling it.

We piano teachers can't comment further without playing it and hearing it. Call us old-fashioned and out of touch with youth.

If you want to drag one down to NYC at the end of the month for the MTNA convention, we'll try it.

It's pretty rare for us to learn Claudia's new piano sold around $10,000 with tax. If I learned a family spent that much on a first piano, I'd be ecstatic. And no doubt I would forget to ask what color it was, and whether the sharps were made out of lucite! (I'm sure I speak for piano teachers in Olympia, Washington as well.)

Peter, that wasn't my point. Just to be clear, the piano makers/sellers have brought this situation on us by selling non-pianos as pianos AND by telling parents that the student's first piano doesn't need to be quality. In fact, the better the instrument at the start, the more likely the student is to enjoy their studies. BTW, I have enjoyed referrals from S&S and other dealers of quality pianos in the area, so it actually does happen, but not as often as either of us would like.

I would be interested if the piano comes with adjustable pedals, a lever/bar for the wrists, a built-in metronome, a computer screen for scrolling music, adjustable legs for the tall/short folks, a computerized tuning system that makes the piano stay in tune forever, an adjustable bench that goes high/low enough for people 3 feet to 7 feet tall, and a practice pedal in addition to a sostenuto pedal.

I drive the piano purchasing decisions for 90% of my students, and most have either Yamaha T-118s or U1s. I pick pianos based on quality, trusted brand, and resale value, in order to provide the maximum value. Newer brands - especially ones out of the ordinary - may pose issues, especially with resale. I would not be comfortable with my student spending $10,000 on a piano, and not having a local dealer to support any potential maintenance issues (there is no Lomence dealer in Texas).

I would consider recommending a brand like Lomence if it was an overall modern brand - not just in looks, but also incorporating technologies like those in Yamaha's Disklavier line.

Yes, I misunderstood. John is absolutely correct, that the better the piano, the more successful the piano study experience.

By the yardstick of the $99 Costco keyboard, however, a Lomence is no doubt a worthy upright. Its unusual colors and the goofiness of its cabinet might carry a student through a month of lessons, but hardly years. In short this is a pricy gimmick piano, imo. I can't imagine who the target market might be: well, probably affluent Chinese in China.

It is far too expensive to fly in N. America.

I don't want this thread to go anywhere near trying to be an advertisement for the brand so I won't mention anything more than what I already offered:



I can't disclose who some of these were because in more than one instance, they are design engineers of other brands (!)

At the route of it all, I am trying to understand why 100% of adults would all love to be able to play the piano, yet interest is diminishing to the extent that piano makers are closing their factories, and piano showrooms are going out of business.

It seems like some are developing the impression that I am only about promoting, even forcing these modern looking pianos into the market.
I am trying to decide if a market exists here.

Please note that at the other end of the spectrum, my corporation represents Steingraeber & Sohne for the Canadian market. We deal with one of the world's best, most prestigious, elite European pianos and many of the finest pianists that travel the globe. It is indeed an odd extreme of a spectrum - Steingraeber - tradition at its finest, and Lomence - modern like no other.
I personally see it as Lomence attempting to re-capture interest back to what it used to be, where a piano complimented and suited the average home whether it is used regularly or not - and Steingraeber being the matured pinnacle of defined achievement and appreciation for quality and rare craftsmanship.

We are all on the same team.



Absolutely agree.

Peter, you are in Toronto, we are in Richmond Hill.
Cosmo Music is a retailer and you can see these pianos in person for yourself. Actually, I also have one downtown at an interior designers showroom on King St E.
If interested, swing on over and give it a try.

As for the target market - this is precisely what is being evaluated. I can tell you the first to land in North America was sold to a semi-retired couple living in in a renovated, lakeside home. They purchased the white 123 and requested the PianoDisc player system be installed.
The next went to a public school whose principal allowed the students to choose the colour. It is the 'students' piano, not just some school piano now.
The next was a teenage girl who was taking lessons but also for pure enjoyment dabbling with Alicia Keys and other pop star musician's music.
And so on....
It appears the market might be significant, but we are interested in doing more research and so all your feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Peter I suppose you have traveled to China in order to suggest the comment you offered.

Fair enough.

I am in South Florida, right in the middle of a place that has been severely hit by the economic meltdown. It is rare that I get beginners who came from musically sophisticated families. Usually the kids who start with me have very little knowledge of music of any kind. Their parents have some vague idea that playing a musical instrument could be a good thing, and usually they pick up one of those 61 key DPs that most people here swear about.

My philosophy is very different from other teachers who actively post here. In about four decades of teaching I have seen countless kids who came from families with a lot of money, "all the advantages", who had no more than average ability and less than average interest in music. There are exceptions, of course. But most of the students who have been my favorites have either come from poor families or have come from families with nearly zero knowledge of music or pianos, and about anything I teach.

I never turn anyone away who comes to me with a good attitude and what looks to be interest in music. I educate both young students AND their parents on the fly. When a kid knows nothing, a cheap digital does not seem to be a problem. Would I prefer every student to start out with an excellent instrument?

Of course.

And if a family were looking at instrument A and instrument B, same price, and instrument B had a "cool" look, I certainly would have no objections. Why would I?

However, BECAUSE most of my kids start on "starter" instruments, my thrust is to develop skills so fast that it becomes evident to the parents that their cheap Casio (or Yamaha) does not have enough keys and is limiting in a thousand ways. I work with the families.

A typical example:

A little more than a year ago I started working with a young student who was playing on a Casio, no touch-sensitivity, no sustain pedal. You get the idea. But he was fascinated with the whole idea of keyboards from day one (meaning keyboards of ALL kinds), and I was able to advance him so fast that within about six months it was obvious to his family that he had talent, and we were able to find an instrument that allowed him to grow. It won't be the last one. If he continues to explode in ability as he is now doing, he's going to be dreaming of something that will have that powerful and subtle sound all talented, developing musicians want. And here, again, my students must be atypical, because all of them would kill for a grand and find uprights a huge step down. As a kid, the moment I played on a great grand, that was the only thing I dreamed about having, of playing on. Basic black, as big as possible, because those were the instruments that sounded the best to me.

My students don't seem to care about color or any gimmicks UNLESS those gimmicks come as extras on instruments they love, for the sound, but that may be because mostly they don't have a chance at such an instrument until they already play very well.

You son is cute, and I enjoyed watching him play, but the idea of having parents who would buy such an instrument to START on would be beyond belief for most of my students. For them it would be another world, a privileged world, a world they only see "up close" on TV.

I could tell you story after story of students who started with instruments that were really quite awful, but their drive to play, the pure love of music kept them going until their families were able to get them a good instrument.

There are also students who start out with decent instruments who are motivated and above average in talent, but what gets ignored again and again here, what is dismissed as a non-factor, is the fact that these cheap digital instruments give poorer students a chance to start, students who would never have had a chance to discover all this a couple decades ago.

Two decades ago for such kids, playing the piano, discovering "classical" music, was about as practical and possible as joining a golf club or a tennis club.

This means that parents who would never have considered buying a piano, just on the CHANCE that a son or daughter might have the talent and desire to take advantage of it, will often do it later, when a child has demonstrated real interest after STARTING on something that richer "folks" would sneer at.

And by the way, there is a HECK of a lot of sneering done in this forum.

There are two outcomes from today's reality, very opposite:

1) A huge percentage of people who would have felt forced to buy a "real piano" now feel free to buy a DP. This is horrible for your business if this is as far as they go.

BUT:

2) If there were more teachers out there truly motivating young players and effectively teaching them so that they gain real skills, there would be a counter-balancing tendency for familes to make the leap, coming into stores selling quality acoustics, and that would be GOOD for your business. I love DPs. Everytime I say this, I am ready to duck, since to say such a thing in a "tradionally classical" world is a good way to get stoned. But the flip side of this is that if you play really well, no DP on the market comes close to the indescribable sound of a fantastic grand.

In my opinion the decline in piano sales is two-fold. DPs cut into your market hugely, and that is simply a fact. However, the REAL problem is that incompetent piano teachers are so great in number that the vast majority of potential purchasers of quality instruments never get good enough to realize WHY they are quality instruments, no matter what the color or how cool the instruments look.

It is likely that not one teacher who posts in this forum will agree with much of anything I said. But that is my experience, and I do NOT get most of my students from "privileged familes". So I guess I just have a different view of teaching and why young students eventually become fine musicians - or don't.

Do you really believe the "product" has not changed since early 1900's? Have you ever heard a Steinway dealer tell about improvements in design or read about Kawaii's technology to improve action? And hear about the latest technology Roland is using in their DP's?

Do you have any clue as to why teachers steer parents clear of buying spinets?

Piano's and DP's have changed and some are better built than ever. And others are following an old recipe, and they limit use of technological improvements to those that improve "price point".

In my experience "the new wears off" after a short time. It's the quality of sound that will continue to inspire a student over time.

For example, when you get a bargain on a purchase, there is the initial thrill of getting the low price. That wears off a short time later, and then you only get gratification if it was a good quality purchase.

I think crystal pianos would make a fun Christmas tree ornament or an ornament to sit on the real piano.

Do you really believe marketing hasn't changed? Our Steinway dealer has expanded to include a recital room. They focus on networking with teachers and their students. I'd say that for SOME dealers, marketing has changed a great deal.

Gary thanks for that thoughtful post.
I don't see DP's as the real cause for the downturn in piano sales, because as you mention (and I agree), the price point of the DP is so much less than an acoustic piano.
In that vein it is a wonderful situation that if DP's didn't exist, maybe some children would simply never get the chance of taking up lessons because it is simply too expensive to get involved with buying an acoustic piano.
My only caution for clients is that like you point out, these keyboards have limitations (and gizmo distractions) and ultimately are like buying a computer - if a person buys a half decent DP, their money is gone and as a financial investment (just in case Suzy isn't seriously interested) they can't sell it for anything close to what they paid for it. A new model with new electronics has come out 6 months later and the electric DP they bought is already outdated.

I like the quote in your signature. I wonder if it applies to me in my situation with Lomence.

Yes, pianos have barely evolved at all! The carbon composite parts in Kawai's does not change much for the consumer. If it was a bit of superior evolution/change, the very best piano manufacturer's would have switched to it. Why are Tier 1 pianos still primarily using wooden parts and outperform the rest?

Think of a car for example, performance has improved, handling, safety, ergonomics - everything. You cannot take parts today and insert them into an automobile from decades ago (or vice versa). With a piano, generally speaking you can.
The so called 'changes' that we see in pianos has NOT come from the consumers, but from the engineers in their back rooms trying to offer something new to market in a dying industry.
Let me provide a truly innovative evolution that Steingraeber has available: carbon fiber soundboards. A soundboard that doesn't 'age' and is much more stable from climate to climate because it doesn't react with humidity differences. This changes the playing field. The engineering of the pianos construction has to be altered and had to be re-designed so it is not like a traditional piano has always been.
Wooden parts vs plastic parts, and all the arguing that goes on within the industry about it - who cares? The consumers don't - otherwise the market would demand it for all brands.
This is what I meant.

And Steinway, don't get me started. A company that signs up artists and then tries to manipulate them and disavow them should they perform on anything but Steinway, sheesh, in any other industry today do you know what type of critisism that would receive... com'on.
Steinway is the king of marketing. Think about it, if you ask the general public what is the best piano in the world, the majority response is Steinway. You ask the same question to a piano technician or rebuilder, (someone inside the industry without anything to gain from their response) and you would hear some other brands in likely much greater percentage.

Their marketing strategy also has not changed. ie: Find a young person who is a piano prodigy, woo them early and lock them in as an artist. Then say to concert halls, "well if you do not have a Steinway at your hall, no Steinway artists will be able to perform at your venue."

Most noteworthy piano dealers these days have a miniature performing hall (or have access to one), network with teachers (to drive traffic to their stores), but very few (and there are some amazing ones) do anything positive for actually fostering a thriving piano industry 10-20-30 years from now.

In regards to DP's, I was forced into getting one partly because of price, partly because with thin walls and floors and ceilings bordering on 4 neighbours, "silent practice" some of the time was the only guarantee of being able to practice at all. I got an instrument that comes as close as possible to allowing me to develop the technique which will transfer over to a good acoustic at some point.

The arrangement that I have been given is that I will be able to trade this DP in, possibly at full value, toward an acoustic piano. I would pay on top of it to get an instrument that is superior - again my priorities are function. I am mentioning it because this goes into the "DP encroachment factor". Maybe there is something useful in that.

What we see is that high quality piano builders focus on technology that will improve sound. It sounds like newgeneration is bent on convincing the uneducated buyer that pianos are all the same quality and you might as well go for bling. Minimizing advancements that affect sound and stability and durability of pianos.

The bling set focus on looks of a piano. The builders who get teachers respect focus on sound.

newgeneration's response was well rehearsed, but he ignored the content and tried to minimize my points. I'm still unconvinced.

We piano teachers are interested in sound. Your piano cases do not impress us. Perhaps your "product" is what some call a PSO. Piano shaped object. When you only focus on the shape/look of your piano, I'm guessing that your disguising a thin, tinny sound that will not hold a candle to a rich resonant sound of a better instrument. It does not take an advanced pianist to hear the difference. Shoppers just need to listen. Play some arpeggios and listen to what you hear.

Just a comment on piano improvements the past century. My son is a professional violinist. As far as I can ascertain, there have been no improvements in violin making since Cremona in the 1600s. Strangely, no violinist seems upset with this sad state of affairs.

There were actually some changes, John, but most of them had a reason involving music itself. The music that was written changed, standard pitch was raised, and performances were in larger halls/orchestras requiring greater volume. They were not frivolous reasons, and I think they were probably suggested by musicians, and made for musicians. The changes were not made to attract lay people or their children.
See middle section: Baroque to Modern Form

That's a good point, John. Takes the debate away from proving advancements and returns it to the real issue which is quality.

All the OP can say about his product is "Polly has a pretty case. Polly has a pretty case. Polly has a pretty case".

The whole sales pitch is based on trying to convince buyers that all pianos are alike other than case. And he will do alright. Someone will believe him.

My parent used to believe that about cars...that they're all the same and it's just bad luck if you get a lemon. In the 70's they had Chryslers that wouldn't start...forever etched in my memory is the sound of igh yigh yigh yigh yigh...and Mom turns the ignition trying to start the car. After many attempts and swearing it would start.

Then it was trouble with Dodge Horizon. As a teenager I tried to convince them to at least buy a Japanese car. Nope. Back out and traded one lemon Dodge Horizon for another Dodge Horizon (which also turned out to be a lemon). By the early 80's they went for Japanese cars and have mostly had a carefree time of it ever since.

KS, not to nit pick, but aren't these all changes to meet changing performance requirements, not "improvements" in the sense of better tone, etc. In the piano world, we went from wooden frames to iron, for the same reason luthiers used heavier bass bars. We went to a wider keyboard compass for the same reason they extended the neck and fingerboard.

Oh, and as he lives and performs in Austin, he took his mom's old fiddle, added a pickup of some kind, and amps it for most of the live nightclub performances. It's not a better violin now, but darn sure louder!

I think that we're on the same page, John. Whatever changes were made to the violin were made for solid reasons because of what was happening in music. They were fueled by the requirements of musicians who knew what they were doing, and the luthiers, who also understood music, responded to them. They were not done for the sake of sales to attract lay people who did not know where the needs were.

We seem to be forgetting strings. There have been many, many changes to the making of violin strings, and with the exception of violinists who specialize in baroque performance practice, they all take advantage of modern string technology.

Also, there are changes made in piano construction all the time. They just tend to be minor and invisible. These Lomence pianos have a radical change on the outside, but I'm assuming much of the action, pinblock, and soundboard (in other words, everything that actually matters where the sound and feel are concerned) aren't that new at all.

The pitch for these Lomence pianos seems about the same as those Pearl River butterfly pianos of several years back (and, prior to that, Baldwin custom Artist Grands). I think all you really have to do is look at how well those pianos sold, and who they appealed to, and you'll have a good idea of how the Lomence will do.

I am still very appreciative of everyone's input.

Ann in Kentucky - You are bent on making the assumption that the Lomence piano is not at all a decent instrument. I started this thread not at all trying to sell the piano to you.
I am interested on the discussion regarding specifically the look and I am receiving excellent feedback on it.
But, please don't make any suggestive comments regarding its quality as that is definitely a case for libel. I was not seeking anyone's input on quality for the OBVIOUS reason that these pianos are so new, hardly anyone can go anywhere to try one. (They debuted in the USA this past January for the first time ever).

I am a second generation technician, having done plenty of piano rebuilding myself. I am an instructor to various accomplished technicians across North America at various piano conventions. My company J.D. Grandt is regarded as the best (sorry for the lack of modesty but I am trying to offer some credibility), again, the best source for quality, accuracy and tone regarding the piano bass strings we supply for technicians around the WORLD. We service all of Yamaha Canada's bass string warranty claims as well as Yamaha Corp USA and Bosendorfer USA.
I have a very complete understanding of tone, and the vast dynamics that contribute to creating good tone in a piano.

I refuse to make this an advertisement for Lomence, except to say that if there were any deficiencies in tonal abilities or mechanical performance of the Lomence piano, you can be assured I would be the first to stay away. The fascinating thing is that they do perform at the same level as any Yamaha or piano in this category.

So please, restrain yourself from addressing anything regarding the quality of Lomence, at least until you have touched one or more and had the chance to justly address any of these concerns you might have.

There are hundreds of viewers of this thread. Are there none that think maybe it is ok to bring some fun to the world of acoustic pianos? I will stand beside you, ok in front of you, as the stones continue to be hurled from those that insist the diminishing interest in pianos cannot be because the piano as we know it appears to children like everything they otherwise are scolded for touching (fine dining room, fancy dishes and glassware, valuable household electronics, etc).
Is there any market for a piano that children might be proud of in front of their peers and be the cause for envy? Is this wrong?

At this point I don't think Ann will believe me, but for the record, the latest 'improvement' by the better piano manufacturer's of today - is actually reverting back to the hammer felt that was used 100 years ago. I acknowledge the piano engineers are seeking to improve sound quality, but very little on the side of innovation that will create 'new' interest for the piano industry is occurring.

Regarding pianos, yes, there is a demand for a stronger bass then a century and more ago, and piano manufacturer's have adjusted to provide for this modern taste. But that is no innovation or evolution.

And again, there is SO MUCH that differentiates a good quality instrument from one that is not. But this thread is not about that.

UNEDUCATED BUYERS, please, please, do your due diligence before purchasing a piano, but speak to piano technician's - they are the ones who work in the trenches, they are the 'pit crew' so to speak who know the mechanics and performance of a piano better than anyone. (A race car driver can do things with their car that amaze people, but they don't know how or why they are able to do it. The pit crew does though). A technician can give you the pros and cons of a piano, what the capabilities are of a piano. A teacher is an excellent resource also but they will only comment on a piano with regards to how competent the technician was that set the piano up. Take for example the very cheapest of cheap pianos (whatever it is) knowing a teacher is coming in to evaluate a piano for their student, a dealer can have this piano prepped to the hilt and it sounds wonderful an hour later when the teacher arrives. Little does anyone know (except the technician) that there is no way it will stay in tune for any length of time, there is no way it will stay regulated for any length of time, and the amount of voicing on the hammers to make it sound half decent has essentially destroyed the hammers in that it sounds great today, but within a few months the brand new hammers will be shot and the piano will sound like a tin box.

Please with all sincerity - teachers forgive me and don't get on my case. You are wonderful and vital and offer MUCH resources for your students and contacts. My last paragraph recognizes your gift of piano teaching and playing. This is different from someone whose gift is not teaching and playing, but repairing and rebuilding - two very different vocations.

I almost said something about this, and bows as well, but as violins are normally considered separately from strings and bows, I kept silent about it. Of course, $280 for a set of premium strings on a violin is one thing, it's many thousands of dollars on a piano, so isn't lightly exchanged!

Actually, it's not. We're in the USA, as is the server. We enjoy freedom of speech and the right to express our opinion. Something which I understand has been severely curtailed in Canada. If true, that's regretful. But Ann has a right to her opinion and to express it. FWIW, in the USA, to prove libel, you have to prove intention to inflict harm. There is nothing in Ann's comments which remotely suggests that's her motive, at least, IMO.

If freedom of speech has been curtailed in Canada, then it's news to me. And in my experience, we don't usually go around threatening potential customers. It's sort of bad for business.

Haven't you heard about Ann Coulter? While I seldom find common areas of agreement with her, I understand the provincial government is trying to convict her of "insult" or some such nonsense because she spoke out on an university campus against a number of Sharia practices.

Actually no, there is something called 'defamation per se' strictly within American law.

...just saying, no comments should be made regarding quality if you've never personally been in contact with it, or heard any feedback with regards to it.
If your definition of American Freedom of Speech and the right to express your opinion disagrees, then we will have to agree to disagree. I will be pleased to be called Canadian, travel the world with my Canadian flag, and you can do the same as an American with your American flag proudly displayed.

We're back to the case yet again.

Aww, now he's Dorothy with those trees throwing rotten apples at him.

Ahh yes, the emoticons have begun.

Yes, thanks! I love the chance to use them. So much more fun than if you had just paid for an ad.

OK. I would say that of the last 100 students I have started, probably 90 of them have begun with cheap DPs. And unlike many people in this forum, I do NOT have a problem. Why? Because I am absolutely opposed to children getting anything they want, often very expensive things, before they have proved that they DESERVE those things.

Now, if students come to me and already have good instruments at home, for obvious reasons I am very happy. But if they have touch sensitivity and a sustain pedal on a starter DP, I can get them going. (I'm talking about beginners, true beginners coming to me with zero knowledge.)

Do they notice a big difference between what they play on at home and what they use in lessons, with me? I'm not sure it is more than a little important to them AT FIRST, while they are basically mapping out the keyboard, naming keys, learning to name notes on the page. But with each step forward they make, they become more aware of the small DP limitations. As we all know the most crippling thing about these cheap DPs is the action, so I am always pushing, quietly, to move towards something better, and that almost always happens in a reasonably short period of time. I described one such situation last night.

Now, the NEXT step is the part that I think impacts acoustic piano sales. Where do people go next? Will they move up to a weighted 88 key DP? Or move to an acoustic? Well, what you people who live in more open areas always forget is the absolutely absurd lack of space that those of us in very metropolitan areas deal with. What I WANT is a very large house with one big room for a pool table. I'm serious. Then another for a grand, and I want the grand to be just under concert grand in size. I'd like a lot of things. During the years when I was still performing seriously, I was used to PERFORMING on concert grands, and I also lived in places that had room for bigger pianos, where I could practice - without someone calling the police.

But now I am in a condo, a small place, neighbors on both sides, a neighbor above. When do I have most of my free time? AFTER MIDNIGHT. After teaching more than 40 students each week, the desire to practice things strikes me in the wee hours, and if it were not for DPs, I would not have an opportunity to work things out. I have a Yamaha CP1, and with earphones I am able to get to about 85% of where I need to be to make the adjustment to a fine acoustic.

Now, having said that, I have a lifetime of experience playing on fine pianos, so it takes me a very short time to make the adjustment back to an acoustic. Usually my biggest problem is not having lost my "feel" from the lack of an acoustic (being ruined by a DP) but rather stepping DOWN to some piece of junk that is unregulated, out of tune, and not capable of doing anything subtle even if it WERE "as good as new".

You are a tech. You have to know what I am talking about.

And on that note, I need to mention that recently I helped a family get a steal on a used grand. How? By talking them into checking out a couple instruments with a local tech. I told them under NO circustances to buy anything without having a fine technician play-test it.

Don't forget the size problem. In a perfect world people would have enough money to have a great acoustic AND a DP, side-by-side, because they do different things. Not all people live in mansions with sound-proofed rooms and the opportunity to play 24/7. A good DP is always a fall-back for odd hours and for privacy. Case in point: last night there were six of us in our tiny place, three grandchilden staying the weekend. I wanted to nail something down, just simple memory work, and I did it effortlessly between 2 and 3 AM, earphones. Everyone else was sleeping. No one was bothered. During the day if there are a couple computers and three game machines being used, no problem. I plug in, I have privacy.

Good points, and for precisely this reason I try to push all my students in the direction of a quality acoustic instrument. Having said that, we are both painfully aware of the ignorance of most people re pianos, so unless piano teachers make special trips to the homes of their students, they don't find out how badly most of them play. If you think most students' parents listen to us, the teachers, think how often the student's listen to you, the tech.

These are all factors. DPs are what they are. Acoustics only play very well when they are regularly serviced by first-rate techs.

Another factor is the ever decreasing amount of spending money available to families. With the triple factors of rising health, housing and education costs, many of us stay home and use our "gadgets" because we can no longer afford to do anything else. My wife and I are in this situation. The piano you are showcasing is close to half the price of a new car. Does that mean it is not worth it? No. Is it possible that the cost and quality is competitive with more traditional looking isntruments? On that my mind is open. I am simply saying that ANY truly first-rate piano, NEW, is a HUGE investment for the parents of students I teach. If they have close to $10,000 to play with, I am going to work hard to find them a rebuilt grand.

And before you say it, you can get really hosed on buying such an instrument if you are not working with a really good tech.

That's weird. I can't see the quote. It must be turned off.

I just looked it up. Apparently students protested her planned appearance because the values we hold in this country include not inciting hatred toward any group of people. The protesters got their wish. There was no legal action or government action from what I read.

Someone being hounded by a protesting mob after telling a student to "go ride a camel" does not seem to have much bearing on what legal attitudes exist in regards to pianos, and opinions on pianos.

I heard a far different story, but as it doesn't apply to pianos, let's agree to let it die.

You may quote me accurately or not at all. Thank you.

Your threats have me singing a different tune: "Chantilly lace, and a pretty case, and a pony tail, hanging down."

If you wanted to control the content of this ad, you should have paid for advertising.

As you very well know, I am in a similar situation. There are a lot of us around, and we get intimidated by people who have more money and larger homes. To admit that we have less, materially, is practically an admission of failure, and to admit that we freely work with and support other people who also have less is usually looked upon as a FURTHER sign of failure.

Twenty years ago 99% of my students were white. Now nearly half are African-American or Hispanic, and more than a few of these kids (and adults, sometimes) are among the best students I have ever had.

That's what people don't get. And it really tees me off. Ask WASPS about the good old days in America and you will hear raves of how wonderful things used to be in the "good old days". Ask minority parents who are getting something closer to a fair deal, for the first time, what THEY think and you will get an entirely different viewpoint.

I have no quarrel with John re the "cool" piano. If it plays well and a family with means has the money to buy it, why not? And I do agree it is unfair to make a judgment re the quality or sound of the instrument with having played it. Which obviously I am not going to have the opporunity of doing.

But I do not find that "cool looking" is a factor for MY students. For them it is more about "something cool to play for their friends", and that means "selling" what they play wherever they play. For me that's really the bottom line. For performers there is always an audience, and the more versatile the performer, the greater potential audience is out there for him/her, even when young.

Thanks Gary for your honest and thoughtful posts.

Sorry to Ann and John for getting into some nonsensical bickering. From the honest concerns that come through your posts, you are dedicated teachers and that is commendable.

If we do cross paths at a convention somewhere, someday, let's all be friends and promote a strong future for the piano industry and the love of music in general.

If others care to throw in anything more, please by all means.

"Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99. What exactly am I supposed to do? Tell them the salesman lied, this isn't a piano?"

Costco, a salesman?

John, in bed with Ann Coulter?

Ann in Kentucky, silenced by a libel suit?

My jaw just can't drop any further.

In bed with Ann? She's a bit skinny for me, and besides, I fear we'd have too many arguments!

I missed this:


I never know what is going to happen next. I am teaching two students who have only some kind of organ at home. I have no idea how they manage to take what I give them, somehow manage to adapt it to this organ (which I hear is not very big), then come back and play for me. But I think the real point is that both of them are doing very well, not as pianists (that will come later) but at sight-reading, chords, rhythm, etc.

I think I have a 50/50 chance of having a good little conference with the parents and working out a way for them to get something I would be more happy with, as a teacher, for obvious reasons.

But those 48 key things, man, I think I am pretty open-minded, but I'm out of that range in almost no time, so there are not even enough KEYS there for the music I write. This does not even touch upon the problem of no touch sensitivity and no sustain pedal...

Jeff, I was really trying to stay out of continued posts on this thread, but your post tickled my funny bone.

My point was that if I had to say something nice, all I could say is "nice case" (referring to "Chantilly lace, and a pretty case"). I am using the word "case" to refer to the piano cabinet, but not sure if this is an accepted use of the word "case".

Just like if you see a play that is a total flop, you may hear people say what great costumes the production has. Or a piano performance that is disappointing, you may hear what a great dress the performer wore.

Edit: In other words, I was just kidding about changing my tune. I wasn't really silenced by the threat, just silenced by the tedium of the thread.

Edit again: You know a joke failed when you find yourself explaining it. Oh, well, some jokes bomb.

As a child, (when my parents were not around) I used to love taking off the top and bottom panels, also the fallboard, just to see all the mechanics.
I even went so far as to put drawing pins in the hammers, to give a 'honky tonk' sound.

A little perspex window, would have been boringly tame by comparison.