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Posted By: hotWings 5th finger - 03/07/08 01:54 AM
Although I don't have a weak 4th and 5th finger trill in my right hand, my goal has been to increase it so it equals the trill of my 1st and 2nd fingers. I have been working on it for a while now. I did make it increase a little bit, but I couldnt(and still cannot) make it go any faster than that.

How do you make your 4th finger and 5th finger trill equal?
Posted By: Mr_Kitty Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 02:05 AM
It's a long, long story. I've told it to several members on this forum via private message. I know JerryS88 is one of them.
I'm too busy to write it out again-it takes several hours.
You can make your 4th and 5th finger trill as fast as any other combination of fingers. It should take you about 2 or 3 years.
If you are really serious and you don't screw around you can actually do it. I'm not joking.
Maybe ask Jerry to cut-and-paste. I'm sorry, I can't type it all out again. It would take me hours.
It cost me $5000 and 2 years of my life to learn, but it sure as heck was worth it!
With patience and dedication you can do it too. I promise.
Posted By: Akira Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 02:13 AM
I'm sure if you pay Mr. Kitty the $5,000, he'll find the time to type it out for you (j/k). smile
Posted By: Fraggle Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 02:25 AM
That is irritating but I can`t quite put my finger on why?
Posted By: Cheeto717 Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 04:32 AM
I would really like to find out as well....perhaps a brief summary mr_kitty?
Posted By: tomasino Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 05:26 AM
If he can trill that fast with his 4th and 5th finger, why should it take him him so long to type it out?

Tomasino
Posted By: Mr_Kitty Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 05:34 AM
It's not a magical cure-all for developing uberfast 4/5 trills overnight.
It's an organized technical training regime.
Posted By: whippen boy Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 08:47 AM
Hmm... are you talking about Isidor Phillip?

That's how I improved 4-5 trills.

Phillip has to be done in moderation, else injury may result.
Posted By: Fleeting Visions Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 11:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
It's not a magical cure-all for developing uberfast 4/5 trills overnight.
It's an organized technical training regime.
I'd like to hear. Could you please type it out for a PM to me? I've been playing 10/2, and it's been valuable, but what you are saying should be of much greater value.

Daniel
Posted By: keyboardklutz Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 06:11 PM
Me too.

Meanwhile here's my exercise: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U

Worth how many Mr_Kitty-hours of typing?

Hold on. Is the the same Mr_Kitty who uploaded a Bach P & F?

Ah.., found it:
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
It's your trills - they're a bit ungainly. That's why finger strength is so important. They should be your point of sparkle. Also they have no closing notes.
Posted By: LisztAddict Re: 5th finger - 03/07/08 06:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
It should take you about 2 or 3 years.
Exactly.
Posted By: JBiegel Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 04:54 AM
Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.
Posted By: JerryS88 Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 05:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.
I find this really interesting, Jeff - really another form of holding exercise where one or more fingers are held down, in this case the thumb on the wood below the keys, while others get exercised. I have discovered how amazingly effective holding exercises are at developing the ability to move each finger independently and with great power since I started doing some six months ago. I believe it's because by holding one or more fingers down you are eliminating any rotation and weight transference from the equation - "forcing" the finger to be moved on it's own, i.e. in "isolation." I never would have believed how far you can develop each finger this way, especially the weakest 4th and 5th. I can now trill the 4th and 5th half-decently - a big improvement for me, although I have a ways to go and would not show it off to anyone just yet.
Posted By: keyboardklutz Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 06:11 AM
Jerry, where's the PM from Mr_K? We're all waiting to cash in.
Posted By: dannylux Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 01:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
Here's an exercise from the great Adele Marcus:
put your thumb on the wood below the keys. With your RH, stretch the 4th finger out toward the fallboard, not up, then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp. Continue on this way, climbing by half steps and separating the 4th and 5th fingers by Perfect fourths. Do same for LH, ascending, since it is easier to do that way. Put LH thumb on wood below keys, and start with pinky finger on G-natural (11 keys below middle c), and then 4th finger stretched out, not up, while pinky is in key, and then play 4th finger on C-natural a Perfect 4th above that G, etc. Just do 4 or 5 of these a day, no more. Shake the wrist out after.
This is one of Horowitz' stretching exercises for the 4th and 5th fingers.

It was Byron Janis who showed it to Adele Marcus, according to "Adele Marcus, Mechanism of Advanced Technique", August 1971 Clavier.


Mel
Posted By: LisztAddict Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 01:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
... then play G above middle C with the fourth finger strongly, and lift the pinky finger when you do that. Then, play the C above that ( a Perfect Fourth), and then lift the fourth finger again and play G-sharp, and lift the pinky, and then play C-sharp a fourth above the G-sharp.
Let me see if I get this right. Play with the 4th finger, hold it there, play with the 5th finger. Then hold down the 5th, play with the 4th on the next key up. Hold down the 4th, play with the 5th on the next key up, and so on. Am I about right?
Posted By: JBiegel Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 02:56 PM
Yes, of course it's the Horowitz exercise--I figured everyone would have known that by now. It's been reprinted in Clavier a few times, as well as in Dean Elder's 'Pianists at Play' book. Clavier is printing an interview with me in the April edition. Perhaps I should include this one in addition to the dminished seventh chord stretch. Space is limited, though.

OK--put your thumb on the wood below the keys. Raise all other fingers toward the sky on an angle, of course not straight up. Drop the fourth finger into the G, and, at the same time, then lift the 5th finger as the 4th is curved into the key, and count slowly 1--2-- per key. Drop 5th finger into the C above that, and stretch 4th finger again as the 5th is in the key. Then play 4th finger half-step higher on G-sharp, stretch 5th up and then play 5th on C-sharp above that. Etc.
Posted By: whippen boy Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 04:41 PM
These "holding exercises" are very similar to ones in the Isidor Phillip books I mentioned.
Posted By: John Citron Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 05:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by whippen boy:
These "holding exercises" are very similar to ones in the Isidor Phillip books I mentioned.
I noticed that too. In fact my piano teacher was a student of his, and gave me some of these exercises to work on in moderation. I still do these today along with the Schmitt exercises for finger independence.

John
Posted By: keystring Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 05:15 PM
Where is the thumb - across from C?
Posted By: JBiegel Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 05:50 PM
In between (or around) middle c and the G above it for RH (depending on the hand). For LH, just enough for your hand to feel the stretch from thumb on wood below keys to the 5th finger on the G 11 notes below middle c.
Posted By: JerryS88 Re: 5th finger - 03/08/08 07:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Jerry, where's the PM from Mr_K? We're all waiting to cash in.
I'm waiting to hear from MK if it's O.K. with him to post it here. In the meantime I'll PM it to you and anyone else who requests it, as he made it clear above that he would approve that. I think the program is excellent - the first part is actually a quite ingenious series of finger-mind "brain teasers," and what follows is essentially a program of a particular series of holding exercises, but so much is not just in the WHAT but in the HOW, which he describes in detail.

[Edit: OK, at least for time being we'll keep this to PMs - if anyone is interested, just PM me.]
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