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Posted By: pianorigami Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 02:54 AM
I just wanted to create a thread where we can all post our "dumb" questions we have about music, especially for questions that don't have Google-Type answers.
For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?
Also- please post any other questions like this/ questions you don't want to ask your teacher laugh
~pianorigami
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.
Posted By: pianorigami Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.

Well, other than that.
And it's not "good" music, it's "amazing" music laugh
Posted By: jazzyprof Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by pianorigami

For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?

Western European Art Music.
Posted By: pianorigami Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by pianorigami

For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?

Western European Art Music.

Doesn't have to be!
Russian is a thing, no? And eastern European (Liszt, Dvorak)?
What about it stylistically? smile
Posted By: Bobpickle Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Classical music is generally considered to be the period of tonal music, from the Renaissance to the advent of atonality...


There are a great couple posts addressing the question (as well as how to study it via the Great Composers' works) superficially here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2110071/1.html
Posted By: Dwscamel Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 04:32 AM
Why do we use words like 'color' to describe sound? Why do people talk about 'key color' when most of us have pianos tuned in ET?

Why are there pieces for piano called 'tone poems,' 'symphonic poems,' and other grandiose names that don't make any sense? It sounds like a load of canal water to me. (Scriabin's stuff is entertaining usually, but his 'tone poems' don't remind me of words at all!)

What, really, is a prelude? There is no 'prelude form'.

Similarly, what is a fantasy?

Why do we have different symbols for different kinds of accents? I mean, can you really hear the difference between them?

Why is rhythm so hard to identify in so much of classical music?

How does a composer get to become 'great' and well-known? It's incredible that the piano has such a vast literature, filled with names and pieces that most of us have never heard.
Posted By: Kreisler Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
Why do we have different symbols for different kinds of accents? I mean, can you really hear the difference between them?


Lots of great questions here, but I think I can tackle this one.

Composers (with editors and engravers) tend to treat notation the same way that writers (with editors and typesetters) treat language:

A writer has certain words and approaches to grammar and punctuation that he or she feels more comfortable with or which is deemed most appropriate to the style or message they're trying to convey. Then it goes through an editor and typesetter who check for errors, consistency, and clarity, as well as decide on the look and feel of the final product.

Music works much the same...composers will have their favorite way of notating something that might be personal or idiosyncratic, and it goes through editors and engravers who create the final look. The different personalities and styles involved in all these stages are the reason for why different notational approaches exist.
Posted By: FSO Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 06:04 AM
Classical music is, to me, any form of music that tries to transcend the limitations of being a form of entertainment and project a message through a medium *other than lexically*. It's difficult though, I'll agree, to begin defining as it is simply, in and of itself, very vague; as are most genres of music. Um...why use words like "colour"? Metaphor...it's called metaphor. Tone poems etc. exist for the impressionistic of us; some of us genuinely hear stories, or have sharp images, vivid scenarios...um...if you don't, well, then you don't. Some of us *do* though and, I speak from experience, compositions with titles such as "tone poem" or "Reflections in the Water" may either be aural descriptions or internalised soundscapes that are so personal that *of course* the composer will be the only one who truly sees it...but, um, I digress laugh There *is* a prelude form; repeating patterns...look at WTC I i; once you spot the pattern it's easy to understand the form of a prelude...just like a nocturne, it can be flexible; it's not a fugue, but there's still form. Um...a phantasy/fantasy/fantasie/fantasia/.... is a free form composition for, usually, a single instrument; it's an impromptu, essentially (though the implication regarding context is clearly different; impromptus are of the moment, impromptu smile Um...phantasies are phantasy; a divergence of the mind as it goes where it may....it amounts to the same thing, really, but there *is* the difference there)...symbols Kreisler fielded....though I must admit I'd have answered differently, I'm sure he's far more in tune with what's correct ^_^ Um...some people find the rhythm really easy to find....I mean, Beethoven symphony 7, 2nd movement...is the rhythm hard to find? Sometimes the rhythm is very complex (6+2+pi/sqrt lastbar) and so, naturally, it will be harder to find. Maybe you're not that good at finding rhythm. I know I'm not; rhythm doesn't come into my mind at all.... frown Um...how does a composer become great and well known? Well...environmental fortune would probably be a prime factor (Bach's degree of greatness relative to his time-period?), but really, if anyone knew the sure-fire conditions...well, they'd be a great and well known composer, wouldn't they? laugh Um...my only questions would be...is music served best by the audience or musician? And is there a perfect musical expression and, if there is, is it transitory in nature?
Xxx
Posted By: Michael Sayers Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 06:39 AM
Originally Posted by Dwscamel

What, really, is a prelude? There is no 'prelude form'.

Maybe in piano music it is connected to pianists preluding before they would perform, with the Prelude being preluding formalized into a music composition.


M.
Posted By: griffin2417 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by pianorigami

For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?

Western European Art Music.


This leaves out a whole lot of non western classical music such as Indian classical music (ICM).

Posted By: wr Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by griffin2417
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by pianorigami

For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?

Western European Art Music.


This leaves out a whole lot of non western classical music such as Indian classical music (ICM).



True. I wonder how those non-Western cultures that have a "classical music", define it for themselves.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/21/13 12:39 PM
An an inveterate traveler, I've encountered a lot of indigenous music from many cultures around the world. But what often confuses the issue is the fact that only Western classical music has a consistent notated tradition which makes it easy for us, several centuries later, to know exactly what notes were played or sung (even if not the way they were played/sung) at the time the music was composed, and also (usually) who the composer was.

Whereas in most other cultures, there isn't the tradition of musical notation, so music was handed down orally from generation to generation, and inevitably changed according to the traditions of the prevailing time. So, when we hear classical Indian raga music now, we don't know if this is anything like the way it sounded in centuries past. The same applies to Tibetan music, whether it's the chanting or the distinctive sound of the dungchen (nowadays of course hijacked by New Age enthusiasts..). Even in the Himalaya, where trekkers overnighting in Tengboche are woken up early in the mornings by the loud droning of monks playing the Tibetan long trumpets, it's difficult to ascertain really how 'traditional' the playing is.
Posted By: ChopinAddict Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/22/13 02:01 AM
Classical music = Breath of life, Prana
Posted By: Cinnamonbear Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/22/13 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
[...] Why do people talk about 'key color' when most of us have pianos tuned in ET? [...]


I'll take this one.

Some of us surmise that, if you have your piano tuned to something other than ET, a "Well Temperament," tuned well by someone who knows what he or she is doing, you will begin to hear "key color," and understand that way of describing it. If you *do* have another way of describing it, then, by all means, do!
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/22/13 06:10 AM
Classical music is the art music produced in, or rooted in, the traditions of Western music (both liturgical and secular), encompassing a broad period from roughly the 11th century to present times. The central norms of this tradition became codified between 1550 and 1900, which is known as the common practice period.

European music is largely distinguished from many other non-European and popular musical forms by its system of staff notation, in use since about the 16th century. Western staff notation is used by composers to prescribe to the performer the pitch, speed, meter, individual rhythms and exact execution of a piece of music. This leaves less room for practices such as improvisation and ad libitum ornamentation, which are frequently heard in non-European art music and popular music.

The term "classical music" did not appear until the early 19th century, in an attempt to "canonize" the period from Johann Sebastian Bach to Beethoven as a golden age. The earliest reference to "classical music" recorded by the Oxford English Dictionary is from about 1836.

-

Wikipedia
Posted By: Steve Chandler Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/22/13 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
[...] Why do people talk about 'key color' when most of us have pianos tuned in ET? [...]


I'll take this one.

Some of us surmise that, if you have your piano tuned to something other than ET, a "Well Temperament," tuned well by someone who knows what he or she is doing, you will begin to hear "key color," and understand that way of describing it. If you *do* have another way of describing it, then, by all means, do!
but each key is different in terms of fingering. D minor feels very different from B minor.
Posted By: Michael Sayers Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/22/13 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
but each key is different in terms of fingering. D minor feels very different from B minor.

Exactly! With a piano each key lays under the hands differently and suites best a different range of emotional expression. Tuning and pitch are less important.

The first movement of Mozart's Sonata K. 545 would feel very different played transposed into the warmth and colours of B Major, for instance.


M.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by pianorigami

For example, what IS classical music? Some guy asked me, and I didn't have a definitive answer.
It's not really time period, so how would you define it?

~pianorigami


I'll take two- very different- stabs at answering this:

1) Classical music is music produced in the tradition of Western Art Music, consisting predominantly- but not entirely- of music produced on instruments contained in a modern symphony orchestra and other western instruments that traditionally accompany such instruments. Such music can often include instruments and musical traditions from non-western or "folk" sources, so long as the music in question aspires to be a part of, a continuation or, or an extension of the Western Art Music tradition. Moreover, non-western composers frequently write "classical"music as well, but the intent of such work is usually the folding of non-western traditions into a Western Art Music context.

Classical music is almost entirely "score based" and it is typically, though not always, "through composed" (exceptions include: the basso-continuo in Baroque music, the Cadenzas of Classical and Romantic concerti, and the aleatoric instructions in some 20th century experimental works.) In performance, while individual musicians strive to reveal the meaning inherent in the score- in a manner similar to a textual "exegesis"- strong emphasis is placed on the intent of the original composer rather than the creative extension of a work by a performer. In other words, the performer of Classical music is generally considered to be a vehicle for the expression of interpretation (whether "faithful" or, conversely, "idiosyncratic") of a "platonic ideal" of a score rather than the performer's unique qualities being the main emphasis. Once the performer becomes the predominant emphasis, the music is generally considered to be an exemplar of another "popular" stream of music. Exceptions exist, but these are typically well grounded stylistically within the traditions of Western Art Music.

The style of "Classical" is, more than anything, understood by its continuous evolution from the religious music of Medieval Europe, through various streams of styles through periods now referred to as Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and Modern music. A work of "classical" music is understood to be such when it appears to be an exemplar, continuation or extension of this tradition, and the intent seems to be not merely to "make reference" to such previous work, but to contribute a new voice to an ongoing exploration of the possibilities of "score based" work.

Many other tradition streams dubbed "classical" (Indian classical, Chinese classical etc,.) exist, and some intermixing occurs- but, in the Western word "classical" by itself typically means that tradition which includes those musical streams which grew out of the European sources mentioned above, and most of these other tradition streams are not understood to be a continuation of the Eurpoean Art Music tradition barring any intermixing of styles.

2) Defining genres is a futile effort. Dividing "classical" from "popular" music involves arbitrary and, often, biased distinctions and stifles creative exploration.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.


I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.


I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

I've never heard of any of these people, and somehow I don't feel like it would be worth my time to investigate the matter further.
Posted By: FSO Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:41 PM
Really? You've not heard of The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Miles Davis....I mean, I don't particularly indulge in them but to say I hadn't heard of them would be akin to saying I hadn't heard of Africa. Um...I really would recommend all Thom Yorke has to give; not that you'll take such a recommendation into consideration... frown
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.


I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

I've never heard of any of these people, and somehow I don't feel like it would be worth my time to investigate the matter further.
Hmmm... how did you know that Chopin was worth it then? wink

[/troll post]

Really though I will have to agree more or less with Brad on this!

Have a listen, if you can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2VzLn6DMCE

or this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ulvBCyXbig

and lately for me this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsixWMdScUI

(also check the videos, since they are part of the song now. Don't "just listen")
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:44 PM
Utter trash, all of it.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.


I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

I've never heard of any of these people, and somehow I don't feel like it would be worth my time to investigate the matter further.


Wow. I am truly surprised that names like Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones or Jimmy Page don't ring a bell. (The others are less familiar, I'll grant.) These names are so common and familiar, and the artists so widely regarded, that it would seem to me that it would require a concerted effort to >avoid< hearing about them, at least in passing.

I take you at your word, and, as such, am truly curious. Could I get a brief sense of your bio to learn how this kind of thing came about? To me, not knowing Jimi Hendrix, for instance, is more or less the equivalent (at least in Today's world) of not knowing the name Beethoven.
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Utter trash, all of it.
And here ladies and gents is where we catch a troll at work! grin

You see, you posted 2 minutes after I posted, which means that:
a. You already know the songs and are trolling above.
b. Didn't listen and posted the precise thing to get us going further...

Gold clap?

Gold clap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6v4T3VT7I

grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Utter trash, all of it.
And here ladies and gents is where we catch a troll at work! grin

You see, you posted 2 minutes after I posted, which means that:
a. You already know the songs and are trolling above.
b. Didn't listen and posted the precise thing to get us going further...

Gold clap?

Gold clap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6v4T3VT7I

grin

I listened to maybe 30 seconds of each link you posted, not the whole thing. That was about all I could stand.

By the way, it's "golf clap" not "gold clap".
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianorigami
For example, what IS classical music?

Good music.


I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

I've never heard of any of these people, and somehow I don't feel like it would be worth my time to investigate the matter further.


Wow. I am truly surprised that names like Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones or Jimmy Page don't ring a bell. (The others are less familiar, I'll grant.) These names are so common and familiar, and the artists so widely regarded, that it would seem to me that it would require a concerted effort to >avoid< hearing about them, at least in passing.

I take you at your word, and, as such, am truly curious. Could I get a brief sense of your bio to learn how this kind of thing came about? To me, not knowing Jimi Hendrix, for instance, is more or less the equivalent (at least in Today's world) of not knowing the name Beethoven.

Well, I've heard of Miles Davis, and I might have heard of Hendrix in passing at some point. No clue who Jimmy Page or the Rolling Stones (?) are.
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
I listened to maybe 30 seconds of each link you posted, not the whole thing. That was about all I could stand.

By the way, it's "golf clap" not "gold clap".
Aha!

That's why youtube was playing hard to get then! grin at least the video is right! :P

But really, can you judge from the first 30 secs of a work what it's all about?

In any case kudos for sticking to your guns and not having heard rolling stones (!!!!?!??!?!!)
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Nikolas
But really, can you judge from the first 30 secs of a work what it's all about?

With a three-minute popular song, yes. And it wasn't the first 30 seconds; I listened to an excerpt from the middle.
Posted By: PianoStudent88 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:16 PM
Polyphonist, is there any popular music that you think is not trash?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:19 PM
I have yet to find it.
Posted By: PianoStudent88 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:26 PM
And what makes music trash?
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

They may be considered classic, but their Å“uvre does not fit into the "Classical" tradition.
Posted By: FSO Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 04:46 PM
Polypoos...if one were to hear even the first couple of minutes of Penderecki's Polymorphia you would have to describe the work as quiet, monotonous and uninteresting. Um...I think that Mozart is trash; I have though, at least, had the decency to listen to many pieces in their entirety before coming to that conclusion. The same is true of jazz; but, to come to that conclusion, I've spent many hours sampling it *and* paying attention. You either do not mean what you say or are so short sighted that, were you to come across a piece of "popular music" that you would enjoy you would write it off or, alternatively, deny liking it to maintain your myopic interpretation of the world....in my opinion laugh Um...seriously though, I wouldn't have recommended Radiohead if they didn't have some musical merit...if you...if you can't see it, fine....but if you don't *allow* yourself to see it, if you can't spare ten minutes (because, contrary to what you'll have surmised, there's a great deal of variation in their songs), well....then I feel sorry for you... frown
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 05:01 PM
Don't argue with people like Polyphonist. It isn't simply that they do not like modern music, it's that they do not want to like it. These kind of people are sadly limited by their own bias and will dismiss anything you might show them on the account of their own prejudice. You just have to let it be.
Posted By: PianoStudent88 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 05:22 PM
I'm trying to figure out the limits of trash, in Polyphonist's opinion.

Polyphonist, more questions, if you would be willing to indulge me. Are you familiar with any genres or types of music outside of classical and enough pop to declare all the examplars you've heard as trash? If so, are all the other genres you have encountered, trash? Some examples (but by no means feel restricted to these, this is just what occurs to me off the top of my head): Folk? Blues? Jazz? Gospel? Indigenous music of other countries (perhaps some are not trash, some are)?

Is there any trash inside of classical music?

What elevates music above the level of trash?
Posted By: bennevis Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 05:33 PM
Unless one was brought up in a very exclusive environment, it's impossible not to be exposed to at least some pop music if you live in a Western country.

When I was at boarding school, the other boys had 'Top of the Pops' on every week (BBC Radio 1, the pop radio station), so I always got to hear the latest pop songs, whether I wanted it or not. The vast majority of the songs passed through my ears, which registered them either as 'noise' or 'OK tune, shame about all that rubbishy percussion' grin. My taste had changed once I got to hear lots of classical music via BBC Radio 3 - just a few years before, I'd have been an avid Top of the Pops listener (when the only music I ever got to hear was pop).

But one day, a particular song caught my attention - the tune was quite unlike that of typical pop songs, with melodic and harmonic quirks which made my ears prick up. I enjoyed listening to it week after week while it remained in the Top 10. Then on one occasion, the DJ mentioned that the tune came from Saint-Saëns's 'Organ' Symphony........ cry

Presently, I have 43 pop songs in my iPod Classic (out of a total of 17127 'songs' i.e. tracks) from Elton John, Bob Dylan, The Beatles/Lennon & McCartney, John Denver, Bee Gees, Abba and Simon & Garfunkel. I scoured far and wide to find pop songs that I liked - and quite a few of them I've played (and sung) before, accompanying friends on piano or guitar. But the only one I'd still listen to regularly is 'Bridge Over Troubled Water'.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
I'll be sure to let Jack White, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Bjork, The Fleet Foxes, Ben Folds, The Rolling Stones, and Thom Yorke know their respective Oeuvres are now considered "Classical."

They may be considered classic, but their Å“uvre does not fit into the "Classical" tradition.


To explain, I did not mean to imply that the work of these artists should be considered "Classical", but that, if the criterion is solely "Good Music" to determine what is/is not classical, then quite a lot of music that we don't normally consider such would fall under that that term.

Conversely, I know that I'd rather listen to any White Stripes album than pretty much any of the music of, for instance, Edward Elgar- and, excepting the Enigma Variations, I would defend the former as much more interesting as the latter. But I certainly don't think The White Stripes should be considered "classical" and Edward Elgar not.
---
In the "pet peeves" thread, I was hesitant to list "dismissal of entire genres of music out of hand" as one of my pet peeves, since we all have our own personal tastes (I, for instance, have never been particularly fond of traditional Irish music) and it's difficult to judge whether or not another person has given something a fair shake. It is perfectly okay not to like something.

That said, I have encountered a number of people who don't "get" popular music in, in my estimation, the same way non francophones don't "get" french poetry- that is, they haven't learned the language. Popular music, as a language, is not the same thing as classical music by and large and cannot (or should not) be judged in the same terms. Its art stems largely from the personality of the artist(s), creative use of timbre, instrumentation and recording techniques, and a response to an entirely different set of "musical streams." Tom Yorke and Radiohead, say, is "good" not by the same standards that we judge, say, Beethoven. He is good because his work is an exceptionally creative response to a number of popular music threads from recent decades. Those who "understand the language" of popular music "get" what he is trying to do.

So, I'm of a forgiving mindset when someone doesn't like a piece of music from a genre with which they have no or only a passing familiarity. As with any work of art, appreciating it requires some background. I can't imagine someone not steeped in Western Classical music to be able to appreciate even a small kernel of the depth of, say, the late Beethoven piano sonatas. Appreciation doesn't come from nowhere.




Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 06:31 PM
To do my part to bring the thread to somewhat back in the direction of the Original Poster's intent, I offer up a question that my father- non classically educated, but a lover and avid consumer of rock/pop- posed to me back when I was in music school:

"What is opus?"
Posted By: the nosy ape Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
To do my part to bring the thread to somewhat back in the direction of the Original Poster's intent, I offer up a question that my father- non classically educated, but a lover and avid consumer of rock/pop- posed to me back when I was in music school:

"What is opus?"

This is Opus.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:09 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by the nosy ape
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
To do my part to bring the thread to somewhat back in the direction of the Original Poster's intent, I offer up a question that my father- non classically educated, but a lover and avid consumer of rock/pop- posed to me back when I was in music school:

"What is opus?"

This is Opus.

[Linked Image]


Ha-ha! That's what I said, at first. Then I gave a long, boring explanation of music publication and music historians and their attempts at cataloging the complete works of a composer. To which the response was:

"Why don't they just say 'piece number'"?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Conversely, I know that I'd rather listen to any White Stripes album than pretty much any of the music of, for instance, Edward Elgar- and, excepting the Enigma Variations, I would defend the former as much more interesting as the latter.

Don't let Jason get on your case about that. grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Are you familiar with any genres or types of music outside of classical and enough pop to declare all the examplars you've heard as trash?

I have heard jazz, pop, country, blues, rock, etc...none of which I found remotely pleasant, interesting, or meaningful except for some of the jazz.

Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Is there any trash inside of classical music?

Yes, although this depends somewhat on one's definition of trash.

Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
What elevates music above the level of trash?

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:40 PM
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by La_plus
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by La_plus
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin

Have you two ever approached the royalty to apply for the position of Court Hair-Splitter?
Posted By: FSO Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 07:58 PM
Sometimes I find litter quite moving...interesting and certainly engaging; does this make it not trash?
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by La_plus
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin

Have you two ever approached the royalty to apply for the position of Court Hair-Splitter?


He's not splitting hairs. You made a very big claim. You said that those musical selections where are trash. We're saying they are not, by your very own definition.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by La_plus
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin

Have you two ever approached the royalty to apply for the position of Court Hair-Splitter?


He's not splitting hairs. You made a very big claim. You said that those musical selections where are trash. We're saying they are not, by your very own definition.

Trash means different things for different people. In the case of my definition, of course it means whether it's interesting, engaging, etc, for ME.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by La_plus
Quote

Music should be interesting, engaging, and convey some emotion or other. If it doesn't do those things (which go hand-in-hand most of the time) then it's bad music, aka trash.


Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin

Have you two ever approached the royalty to apply for the position of Court Hair-Splitter?


He's not splitting hairs. You made a very big claim. You said that those musical selections where are trash. We're saying they are not, by your very own definition.

Trash means different things for different people. In the case of my definition, of course it means whether it's interesting, engaging, etc, for ME.


Fair enough. This reminds me, however, that one should be careful and make one's qualifications clear.

Just as an aside, are all musical judgements subjective? Or can we confidently agree that Brahms is better than Brittany?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by La_plus

Then by your definition, trashy music does not exist.
Indeed, since if it appeals, engagins and conveys any emotion or other to any person (even a single person) then it can't be trash! grin

Have you two ever approached the royalty to apply for the position of Court Hair-Splitter?


He's not splitting hairs. You made a very big claim. You said that those musical selections where are trash. We're saying they are not, by your very own definition.

Trash means different things for different people. In the case of my definition, of course it means whether it's interesting, engaging, etc, for ME.


Fair enough. This reminds me, however, that one should be careful and make one's qualifications clear.

Just as an aside, are all musical judgements subjective? Or can we confidently agree that Brahms is better than Brittany?

Brittany? Who's Brittany? I looked on the Petrucci list of composers, which is pretty complete, and found a Bristow and a Brito, but no Brittany.

Anyway, whoever they are, Brahms is better. grin
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:26 PM
I assume he means Brittany Spears. Is one better than the other? Being that art is subjective, I wouldn't say so. If we could make even the tiniest of objective rankings, then there would have to be some sort of logical or mathematical criteria for judging the value of art, and would be equally as applicable to Brittany vs Brahms as Brahms vs Beethoven. So who is better, Brahms or Beethoven? Isn't it a silly comparison?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by La_plus
I assume he means Brittany Spears. Is one better than the other? I wouldn't say so.

Brittany Spears? Is that another pop artist? Oh, yes, she's equal to Brahms, all right. Ever heard the Spears Third Piano Concerto? It's a great piece, let me tell you.
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:29 PM
The postings are starting to look like Op Art.

Is it trash?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:30 PM
Op Art? In what way?
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by La_plus
I assume he means Brittany Spears. Is one better than the other? I wouldn't say so.

Brittany Spears? Is that another pop artist? Oh, yes, she's equal to Brahms, all right. Ever heard the Spears Third Piano Concerto? It's a great piece, let me tell you.


Yes, she's a pop artist, though I would think the word "artist" is generous. Which was my point.
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 08:59 PM
It's Britney not Brittany.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
It's Britney not Brittany.


Ahh, thank you.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
It's Britney not Brittany.


Ahh, thank you.

It doesn't matter - she doesn't deserve to have her name spelled right. laugh
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
It's Britney not Brittany.


Ahh, thank you.

It doesn't matter - she doesn't deserve to have her name spelled right. laugh


I guess you're right Polifonyst. laugh
Posted By: griffin2417 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:11 PM

It's a shame that a few destructive individuals can so easily ruin what was otherwise an enjoyable thread to read. Up until now I felt it was comfortable enough to actually raise a few questions without having to be concerned about offensive attacks or ridicule.

It's clear to see where this is all heading. Oh well! On to other things for me.

PS: I did appreciate the discussion on the first page of this thread, however.

Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by griffin2417

It's a shame that a few destructive individuals can so easily ruin what was otherwise an enjoyable thread to read. Up until now I felt it was comfortable enough to actually raise a few questions without having to be concerned about offensive attacks or ridicule.

It's clear to see where this is all heading. Oh well! On to other things for me.

PS: I did appreciate the discussion on the first page of this thread, however.


Well, this IS supposed to be a dumb thread, right? laugh
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by griffin2417

It's a shame that a few destructive individuals can so easily ruin what was otherwise an enjoyable thread to read. Up until now I felt it was comfortable enough to actually raise a few questions without having to be concerned about offensive attacks or ridicule.

It's clear to see where this is all heading. Oh well! On to other things for me.

PS: I did appreciate the discussion on the first page of this thread, however.


Well, this IS supposed to be a dumb thread, right? laugh


Hahaha I was going to say that!
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by FSO
Really? You've not heard of The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Miles Davis....I mean, I don't particularly indulge in them but to say I hadn't heard of them would be akin to saying I hadn't heard of Africa. Um...I really would recommend all Thom Yorke has to give; not that you'll take such a recommendation into consideration... frown


Last Flowers by Radiohead is one of my favourite songs.
Posted By: Auntie Lynn Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:25 PM
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Op Art? In what way?

Go back to where you posted this question and then go back a few more postings. The quotes are boxes within boxes within ...

It reminds me of Op Art.
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...

Clara Schumann trying to quiet, or keep quiet about, the baby!

(Me nasty)
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Op Art? In what way?


In that quotes of quotes of quotes (etc,.) make a strange "nested pattern" of brown rectangles a-la Frank Stella.
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:31 PM
Another Dumb Question once asked me (in so many words):

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Another Dumb Question once asked me (in so many words):

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"

Any hope for our civilization is quickly fading.
Posted By: Damon Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Unless one was brought up in a very exclusive environment, it's impossible not to be exposed to at least some pop music if you live in a Western country.


There are some exclusive environments. I had a roommate who had never heard of the Beatles (1980). I fixed that. smile
Posted By: Damon Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"


We can, but nobody likes them.
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Op Art? In what way?


Well, reading some of these comments is making me feel a little dizzy...
Posted By: La_plus Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by bennevis
Unless one was brought up in a very exclusive environment, it's impossible not to be exposed to at least some pop music if you live in a Western country.


There are some exclusive environments. I had a roommate who had never heard of the Beatles (1980). I fixed that. smile


And exactly which large boulder was he living under his whole life?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by jmcintyre
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Op Art? In what way?


Well, reading some of these comments is making me feel a little dizzy...

laugh

Useless and unproductive argument is actually a very refined form of art. grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by bennevis
Unless one was brought up in a very exclusive environment, it's impossible not to be exposed to at least some pop music if you live in a Western country.


There are some exclusive environments. I had a roommate who had never heard of the Beatles (1980). I fixed that. smile


And exactly which large boulder was he living under his whole life?

I didn't know who they were until a few months ago, Damon.
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...

Clara Schumann trying to quiet, or keep quiet about, the baby!

(Me nasty)


Don't you think "Der Kindervater" lacks the snap of "baby daddy"?
Posted By: pianorigami Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Another Dumb Question once asked me (in so many words):

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"

I didn't mean THAT dumb wink I meant things like, "How did Prokofiev's trips outside Russia influence his compositions?" Things that are hard to Google (Bing!).
To those arguing about Pop-Music, as much as I agree with you (in a super broad sense- I do NOT hate all popular music), this is neither the time nor place.
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Useless and unproductive argument is actually a very refined form of art. grin


No need to tell me. I live just outside our nation's capital. grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/23/13 11:59 PM
I wouldn't call politics an art; more of a science. "What can I say right now to provoke the longest and stupidest discussion?"
Posted By: Orange Soda King Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...


I will play Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto, in B-flat minor, by... by... by all means...
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...


I will play Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto, in B-flat minor, by... by... by all means...

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?
Posted By: Orange Soda King Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Auntie Lynn
Oh, I thought you meant dumb music questions like: who wrote Brahms' Lullaby...


I will play Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto, in B-flat minor, by... by... by all means...

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?


That was a Victor Borge quote. smile

I don't "hate" it. I'm just not a fan. It's got beautiful melodies, but all the flashy arpeggios and octaves and runs just lose me... I've heard it done convincingly, and I really enjoyed it, but overall I'm just not a fan of the piece, and I don't feel compelled to play it (though I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto, actually; that's another story).

I've never been much of a fan of Tchaikovsky in general, save the ballets.
Posted By: argerichfan Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?

I don't know that he particularly hates it, I suspect he is more online with my feeling: I'm just damn tired of the empty warhorse!

I need -and am taking- a timeout. Maybe a year... a decade... a century. wink And btw, I know a number of people, both in person and in cyberspace, who totally agree with me!

Edit: OSK got in earlier than me...
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by OrangeSodaKing
I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto...

You don't want to learn the Alkan concerto? grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?

I don't know that he particularly hates it, I suspect he is more online with my feeling: I'm just damn tired of the empty warhorse!

I need -and am taking- a timeout. Maybe a year... a decade... a century. wink And btw, I know a number of people, both in person and in cyberspace, who totally agree with me!

Edit: OSK got in earlier than me...

I wouldn't go so far as to call it an empty warhorse, but I'm not a big fan of the piece either. One reason for this is that the first movement drags on far too long with vapid technique and not enough music. The last movement is great, though, if a bit lacking in substance. It IS a showpiece, after all.
Posted By: pianorigami Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?

I don't know that he particularly hates it, I suspect he is more online with my feeling: I'm just damn tired of the empty warhorse!

I need -and am taking- a timeout. Maybe a year... a decade... a century. wink And btw, I know a number of people, both in person and in cyberspace, who totally agree with me!

Edit: OSK got in earlier than me...

I wouldn't go so far as to call it an empty warhorse, but I'm not a big fan of the piece either. One reason for this is that the first movement drags on far too long with vapid technique and not enough music. The last movement is great, though, if a bit lacking in substance. It IS a showpiece, after all.

I find that the difficult techniques only add to the piece, as they make it an even more incomprehensible wonder. I can't wait until the day I'm able to learn the piece; I find it's melodies and nuances to be out of this world.
But I also love the Tchaikovsky Violin concerto, so maybe I'm just a sucker for his idiom wink
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Why do you hate the Tchaik 1 so much?


I don't "hate" it. I'm just not a fan.


I happen to know you have a special place in your heart for Argerich's rendition that's on YouTube, OSK. wink
Posted By: Orange Soda King Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by OrangeSodaKing
I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto...

You don't want to learn the Alkan concerto? grin


"Hardly" wink
And that's a solo piano piece like Bach's Italian Concerto smile

The biggest reason I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto is because I don't see myself ever having an opportunity with an orchestra any time soon! If I do, it would be with a baton. smile

Of course, if somehow or another I did somehow ever get a legitimate change to play with an orchestra, I will definitely learn almost any concerto the conductor would ask me to play (within my abilities). smile
Posted By: bennevis Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
The biggest reason I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto is because I don't see myself ever having an opportunity with an orchestra any time soon! If I do, it would be with a baton. smile


I'll never get an opportunity to play with an orchestra in this lifetime (maybe when I'm re-incarnated grin, I will), and the only time I wield a baton is in front of a mirror.

But that's never stopped me learning concertos, because I just play the piano part plus the orchestra part when the piano isn't playing (and add the orchestral parts to the piano when both are playing, if I've got fingers free....), because there're some things you get in concertos that you'll never find in the same composer's solo piano music. Especially in Mozart, whose piano writing in the concertos is often more adventurous than in his piano sonatas.

In fact, the same applies to Tchaikovsky, and quite a few other composers.
Posted By: wr Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by pianorigami

But I also love the Tchaikovsky Violin concerto, so maybe I'm just a sucker for his idiom wink


It's a phase that many of us go through.

Actually, I would still love much of Tchaikovsky if I hadn't heard it a megabazillion times. It just doesn't survive extreme over-exposure for decades all that well, IMO. But then, how much music does? Very little, I think.
Posted By: Michael Sayers Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
The biggest reason I don't feel compelled to learn hardly any concerto is because I don't see myself ever having an opportunity with an orchestra any time soon! If I do, it would be with a baton. smile

Don't let that be a discouragement. Learn the concerto(s) then find the opportunities.


M.
Posted By: Cheeto717 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 02:13 PM
Music for the sake of dancing is something that's been with us humans since the most primitive times in our history. Pop music lets us fulfill that primal urge to shake our booty! I find it incredibly pretentious that people call it trash, although it hardly surprises me.
Posted By: wdot Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 02:33 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted, but how can something be an intermezzo if it isn't in the middle of anything? Brahms wrote a beautiful set of three intermezzi. But the first and third were, by definition, not in the middle of anything. Or am I missing something?

I know. I'm just being a crank. But perhaps somebody should write a sonata with a first movement entitled "Finale."
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 02:38 PM
I just love the visual concept of 'shaking one's booty' when dancing a gavotte while dressed in panniers.
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by wdot
Sorry if this has already been posted, but how can something be an intermezzo if it isn't in the middle of anything? Brahms wrote a beautiful set of three intermezzi. But the first and third were, by definition, not in the middle of anything. Or am I missing something?

I know. I'm just being a crank. But perhaps somebody should write a sonata with a first movement entitled "Finale."


i don't think Brahms cared much for titles. In the words of Cole Porter: "anything goes".
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 08:22 PM
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?

As stores is not here right now I will post for him grin:

"Of course you can't do that. That would violate the composer's intention. Do your homework, Brad."
Posted By: PrestoConFuocco Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P
Posted By: bennevis Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P


Playing a scherzo is no joke (especially if it's one of Chopin's.....).
Posted By: PrestoConFuocco Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P


Playing a scherzo is no joke (especially if it's one of Chopin's.....).


You can't just decide to play an intermezzo in the middle of everything.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P


Playing a scherzo is no joke (especially if it's one of Chopin's.....).

It is if you play like this.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P


Playing a scherzo is no joke (especially if it's one of Chopin's.....).


You can't just decide to play an intermezzo in the middle of everything.

Personally, I like to have my intermezzo first, my finale next, and my introduction last.
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:28 PM
A one night stand?
Posted By: patH Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Another Dumb Question once asked me (in so many words):

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"

Some people, even on this board, seem to think that this is not a dumb question.
The answer is: The premise is not true. The score may be written out, but the intent of the composer not necessarily known.
And anyway, even if it was: The performer is the one giving the recital, not the composer. So if the performer decides to take creative liberties, he/she is allowed to do so.
Posted By: patH Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?

Can I play a march in September?

Sorry, could not resist. grin
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?

Can I play a march in September?

Only March-Andre Hamelin is allowed to do that.
Posted By: Damon Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?

Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?


The latter, I think. grin
Posted By: Orange Soda King Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/24/13 11:37 PM
There's an old thread about Rubinstein and Reuben sandwiches, haha..
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?



Sadly, I knew without even looking.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by jmcintyre
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?



Sadly, I knew without even looking.

The infamous Cindy Elizondo strikes again, along with all her brilliant insights into the mind of "ChoPAN, the greatest composer."
Posted By: pv88 Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by jmcintyre
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?



Sadly, I knew without even looking.

The infamous Cindy Elizondo strikes again, along with all her brilliant insights into the mind of "ChoPAN, the greatest composer."


I must say (and please forgive my critical review) that was the absolute worst performance I have ever heard for this piece. frown

What an embarrassment it must have been although the audience apparently seems to love it!

Did the pianist study the work before attempting to play it?
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by pv88
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by jmcintyre
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?



Sadly, I knew without even looking.

The infamous Cindy Elizondo strikes again, along with all her brilliant insights into the mind of "ChoPAN, the greatest composer."


I must say (and please forgive my critical review) that was the absolute worst performance I have ever heard for this piece. frown

Did the pianist study the work before attempting to play it?


My guess is no. (There's a Youtube comment that's pretty hilarious under the video: "I think you people making fun of this should be ashamed. First, consider that she must've been very nervous playing the piece for the first time. Second, she was obviously wearing boxing gloves while playing, and that didn't improve her technique. She actually makes the piece sound very modern, like Cecil Taylor or an experimental piece with a distressed opossum running across the keys." grin) Don't worry, my comment about "brilliant insights" was sarcastic. This is a notoriously awful performance, and has been discussed here before, in various guises.

What always gets me most is the announcer at the beginning: "MUSIC IS THE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE, AND SHOPAN WAS THE GREATEST COMPOSER OF THIS LANGUAGE. HERETOPERFORM SHOPAN'S SHERZO NUMBER ONE IN B MINOR OPUS TWUNNY, IS CINNY ELIZONDO MISS GULF COAST!!!!!"
Posted By: Orange Soda King Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:58 AM
Gotta love the crowd reaction... Both before, AND after her playing!
Posted By: ChopinAddict Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 05:50 AM
She probably had to play standing because of her dress at the competition... laugh
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Another Dumb Question once asked me (in so many words):

"Why, if the score is written out and the intent of the composer is known, is there a performer at all? Shouldn't we be able to put all this information into a computer and get a 'perfect' performance?"

Some people, even on this board, seem to think that this is not a dumb question.
The answer is: The premise is not true. The score may be written out, but the intent of the composer not necessarily known.
And anyway, even if it was: The performer is the one giving the recital, not the composer. So if the performer decides to take creative liberties, he/she is allowed to do so.


In all seriousness, I wouldn't characterize it as "taking creative liberties" as that would imply an "ideal" performance that the performer is deviating from.

To me (at least), it is clear that there is no one "platonic ideal" of a piece that a performer is attempting to produce- there may be many, there may be an infinite number. This is because the idea of a composer's intent is nebulous. A composer generally has a good idea of what he/she wants, but that idea is not, and cannot be, exact. Moreover, written communication is inexact, so, even if a composer has an exact intent (which I doubt), we cannot know what it is. The written score, therefore, is more of a "map of possibilities" that the performer explores and, perhaps, adds to. (The map may be confined to a small territory.)

Great performers push the map into terra incognita, expanding the piece and revealing nuances, depths, and new musical places that the composer may not have even considered.

Does this make sense?
Posted By: Brad Hoehne Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

It is if you play like this.


Hmmm... Is it Double Lang or is it the Share-zo video?

Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by PrestoConFuocco
Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Can I play a nocturne during the daytime?


I don't know, can you play a scherzo if you're not funny? :P


Playing a scherzo is no joke (especially if it's one of Chopin's.....).

It is if you play like this.



Sounded like the "wild west bar piano" version played by a drunk. Thatth one hellava' share-zoe, pardner...
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:02 PM
About that gal... Ok, so Chopin is rolling in his grave... okie... And we definitely know better!

But, from my end, even if 1 person wondered "what is this? Sounds interesting" then it's a win-win situation! She got 4th place and someone learned about Shopan!
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:35 PM
Well, the sharezo was a beast and beauty won.
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Nikolas
About that gal... Ok, so Chopin is rolling in his grave... okie... And we definitely know better!

But, from my end, even if 1 person wondered "what is this? Sounds interesting" then it's a win-win situation! She got 4th place and someone learned about Shopan!

She got 4TH PLACE?

Maybe there were a lot of people who played just as badly, then, if that's even possible. crazy

"HERETOPERFORM SHOPAN'S BALLID NUMBER 1 IN G MINOR OPUS TWUNNYTHREE..."
Posted By: TheHappyMoron Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
About that gal... Ok, so Chopin is rolling in his grave... okie... And we definitely know better!

But, from my end, even if 1 person wondered "what is this? Sounds interesting" then it's a win-win situation! She got 4th place and someone learned about Shopan!

She got 4TH PLACE?

Maybe there were a lot of people who played just as badly, then, if that's even possible. crazy

"HERETOPERFORM SHOPAN'S BALLID NUMBER 1 IN G MINOR OPUS TWUNNYTHREE..."



4th place isn't that good when there was only two people in the competition
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/25/13 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Nikolas
About that gal... Ok, so Chopin is rolling in his grave... okie... And we definitely know better!

But, from my end, even if 1 person wondered "what is this? Sounds interesting" then it's a win-win situation! She got 4th place and someone learned about Shopan!

She got 4TH PLACE?

Maybe there were a lot of people who played just as badly, then, if that's even possible. crazy

"HERETOPERFORM SHOPAN'S BALLID NUMBER 1 IN G MINOR OPUS TWUNNYTHREE..."


4th place isn't that good when there was only two people in the competition

ha
Posted By: albumblatter Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/26/13 03:03 PM
I have a question.
Why did some composers try to move away from "programme" music while some seemed to promote their composition as such?
I'm thinking of Chopin and his etudes, preludes, and valses without much 'subtitles' (except for Raindrop, Winter Wind, and Revolutionary, and I believe those names weren't attributed by Chopin himself?) against Liszt, who, along with Berlioz, matured the form of symphonic poems.
Is one form inferior to the other? If one were to give a title to Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 1 "Polish Departure", would it make it less artistic?
Posted By: Nikolas Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/26/13 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by albumblatter
I have a question.
Why did some composers try to move away from "programme" music while some seemed to promote their composition as such?
I'm thinking of Chopin and his etudes, preludes, and valses without much 'subtitles' (except for Raindrop, Winter Wind, and Revolutionary, and I believe those names weren't attributed by Chopin himself?) against Liszt, who, along with Berlioz, matured the form of symphonic poems.
Is one form inferior to the other? If one were to give a title to Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 1 "Polish Departure", would it make it less artistic?
There's no huge difference there...

some composers work better with 'pictures' or 'images' or something... Others work better with more abstract ideas... One may need a poem, and an extro-musical idea to compose, while someone else may be fine with a great melodic idea, or something...

no biggie I think
Posted By: patH Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/26/13 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
It is if you play like this.

That was a brilliant performance by Ms. Elizondo!

Any great pianist can play Chopin and make it sound like Chopin. But it takes the audacity and cleverness of a beauty pageant participant to turn it into a Free-Jazzy performance, which sounds like she was playing with her fists and elbows. A truly original performance, and much nicer to my ears than the singing of Florence Foster Jenkins. Too bad the video doesn't show her playing.

Plus, her performance is only 2 minutes long. Just enough to make her point.
Posted By: BruceD Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/26/13 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]
She got 4TH PLACE?

Maybe there were a lot of people who played just as badly, then, if that's even possible. crazy
[...]


Since this was a "beauty pageant" with demonstration of "talent" as only one of the components, it's quite possible that none of the other contestants played the piano as their "talent" segment.

Regards,
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/26/13 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]
She got 4TH PLACE?

Maybe there were a lot of people who played just as badly, then, if that's even possible. crazy
[...]


Since this was a "beauty pageant" with demonstration of "talent" as only one of the components, it's quite possible that none of the other contestants played the piano as their "talent" segment.

And what did the others do for the talent segment? Play a round of golf in 1500 strokes?
Posted By: jmcintyre Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/27/13 03:43 AM
Miss Illinois juggled flaming batons. I think her name was O'Leary or something like that.
Posted By: ChopinAddict Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/27/13 04:04 AM
The idea is interesting (I mean that they have to demonstrate some talent too), but it is better to be good at something non-intellectual than to be bad at something intellectual!
Posted By: Polyphonist Re: Dumb Music Questions - 09/27/13 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
The idea is interesting (I mean that they have to demonstrate some talent too), but it is better to be good at something non-intellectual than to be bad at something intellectual!

How true.
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