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Do judges count off for.. (?)

Posted By: nocturne152

Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 11:37 AM

Do judges count off for wrong fingering? If the score dictates you play 3 on this note and 2 on this note etc.. how much would they take off? Also, I understand that there are sometimes expectancies to play specific fingerings in bars where the fingerings are not dictated. For those bars, would they count off if you used your own fingering even if it didn't run with the "usual way" of playing those bars?

Grazi.
Posted By: RonaldSteinway

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 11:42 AM

What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.
Posted By: stores

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.


Then your teacher is either a) trying to get you to pay closer attention to the fingering you're choosing, or b) completely clueless.
Posted By: Keith D Kerman

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 12:04 PM

There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1 that if a judge notices you are using you will probably get penalized. There is passage work that may be written for one hand that is much easier with two hands, and if a judge sees you doing this, and thinks it is wrong, you might get penalized.
But if a score indicates you use your second finger and you prefer to use your third finger, no judge will penalize you.

However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1 that if a judge notices you are using you will probably get penalized. There is passage work that may be written for one hand that is much easier with two hands, and if a judge sees you doing this, and thinks it is wrong, you might get penalized.
But if a score indicates you use your second finger and you prefer to use your third finger, no judge will penalize you.

However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


Thanks for the advice!
Posted By: Kreisler

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 01:25 PM

+1


Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.


Then your teacher is either a) trying to get you to pay closer attention to the fingering your choosing, or b) completely clueless.
Posted By: Piano*Dad

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


[Linked Image]

I'd feel for the next person to play ...


In truth, for most pieces the judges would not really be in a position to observe fingering with any particular accuracy. They're not sitting or standing near the pianist like they might be in a master class environment.

In addition, for many other works there are several very different ways to grab certain passages. I'm thinking of Beethoven's Tempest sonata, for instance. In the first movement there are multiple options for a certain section. You can use opposite hands from what other pianists choose and it's all fine.
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Quote
However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


[Linked Image]

I'd feel for the next person to play ...


In truth, for most pieces the judges would not really be in a position to observe fingering with any particular accuracy. They're not sitting or standing near the pianist like they might be in a master class environment.

In addition, for many other works there are several very different ways to grab certain passages. I'm thinking of Beethoven's Tempest sonata, for instance. In the first movement there are multiple options for a certain section. You can use opposite hands from what other pianists choose and it's all fine.


I was mostly referring to major competitions where the cameras are on their faces and hands.
Posted By: WhoDwaldi

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 01:50 PM

Yes, in certain auditions where scales are required, fingering counts.
Posted By: rocket88

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 02:02 PM


Honest question: Are there ever any judges who are blind, and thus must judge solely on the sound?
Posted By: DanTheMan14

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 02:38 PM

This is what i don't understand about the fingering ruling. Wouldn't that actually be a skillful thing if somebody ending up having a fingering that is better? Sometimes i get fingerings on sheet music that is usually made toward the hand size of the arranger. What if somebody has small hands and can't reach or preform that written fingering and has to make their own? That doesn't seem very fair to me, speaking that you can get a piece to sound exactly the same whither you use different fingers are not. I know that from my Hands because my fingers are medium but my palms are not that big. I have even seen talented pianists with extremely small hands. Can somebody explain why? I am referring to being ( unable ) due to technical reasons that are uncontrollable.
Posted By: BruceD

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 03:59 PM

I can't think of any competition where judges would be worried about fingering; to begin with, they are rarely in a position to view fingering closely and there are too many other things for them to judge. They are judging the musical and artistic quality of a performance.

Any intelligent judge knows that we all have different sized/shaped hands and that there is rarely any "one fingering fits all" that could be applied in serious competitions. Perhaps, as others have suggested, if you are taking an examination where scales are part of the process, you might be poorly judged if your fingering doesn't produce clean, even scales. Even there, it should be the results that count.

Regards,
Posted By: Arghhh

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by rocket88

Honest question: Are there ever any judges who are blind, and thus must judge solely on the sound?


It is standard for orchestral auditions for the judges and participants to be separated by a screen so that neither can see the other. I don't know how prevalent this is for piano competitions.

The only time I can think of where judges would be looking at fingering is on scale and arpeggio playing in a graded examination.
Posted By: rocket88

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 04:10 PM

Thanks!
Posted By: Mark_C

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.
My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.

Absolutely wrong, except maybe for the rarest of exceptions, like if your fingering means you're "cheating" in some way.

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1....

Exactly the first thing that popped into my mind.
I have a fingering where you never have to stretch more than a 7th. ha

Lostaccato: What do you mean by "wrong fingering" anyway??
And, I'm wondering if this is one of those instances, of which I'm sure there are more than we ever find out, where the teacher is being misquoted or taken badly out of context. Anyone else wondering if the teacher really said this incredibly stupid thing? I'd guess that he/she didn't. It's just too stupid.
Like, for example, I can imagine that a student used a particular bad fingering and the teacher said if you do that, you won't be able to play it musically and then you'll stink, and then you'll be 'counted off'....

But as presented? I'm very skeptical.
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.
My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.

Absolutely wrong, except maybe for the rarest of exceptions, like if your fingering means you're "cheating" in some way.

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1....

Exactly the first thing that popped into my mind.
I have a fingering where you never have to stretch more than a 7th. ha

Lostaccato: What do you mean by "wrong fingering" anyway??
And, I'm wondering if this is one of those instances, of which I'm sure there are more than we ever find out, where the teacher is being misquoted or taken badly out of context. Anyone else wondering if the teacher really said this incredibly stupid thing? I'd guess that he/she didn't. It's just too stupid.
Like, for example, I can imagine that a student used a particular bad fingering and the teacher said if you do that, you won't be able to play it musically and then you'll stink, and then you'll be 'counted off'....

But as presented? I'm very skeptical.


You're right - I presented the situation horribly now that I look back. Now that I think about it, I remember it WAS about some sort of "cheating". At the end of op9 no2, I played them with two hands since I can't yet perform it with one hand. (yet!!) and she told me about that, but she also commented about how, in op9 no2, I played the top notes of the left hand chords with my THUMB instead of my pointer. I understand how that could make problems regarding legato. Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?
Posted By: Mark_C

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by lostaccato
....I presented the situation horribly now that I look back....

Thanks for clarifying yourself.
She didn't mean you'd be penalized for the fingering, but for not playing well.

Note to everybody: When someone makes a teacher sound stupid, they're probably not telling it exactly how it was.

Originally Posted by lostaccato
....Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?

What's this whole thing about "taking off points," anyway? Why aren't you rather worrying just about playing well, and whether it sukks or not? ha

And no, they wouldn't "take off points," if you can play it well that way. If it's a fingering that makes you play unmusically or badly, they'd take off points, but more importantly, you'd be playing badly.
Posted By: BruceD

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by lostaccato
[...] Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?


I still say: No, s/he wouldn't; in most cases the judge can't see your fingerings; it's the sound and tone production that matter. By the way, how many competitions are monitored with cameras throughout, anyway? Even those that are don't constantly and consistently aim at the pianist's hands. At the stage of competitions, festivals, and even most examination contexts, I think the question of being marked on fingering is a non-issue if what is produced is musically appropriate.

Regards,
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:42 PM

Thanks guys!
Posted By: drumour

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by BruceD
...Perhaps, as others have suggested, if you are taking an examination where scales are part of the process, you might be poorly judged if your fingering doesn't produce clean, even scales. Even there, it should be the results that count.

Regards,



As far as I know, with the two major exam bodies in the UK, it is preferred that scale-fingering be consistent and systematic; it definitely doesn't have to accord with any historic orthodoxy. But I think more than that it is the results that do count.

John
Posted By: Mark_C

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 05:55 PM

BTW, in that example you gave at the end of the Chopin nocturne, I can't imagine exactly where you're talking about, but whatever it is, it doesn't sound like that's a place where there would be such a problem. It seems like you could do it musically as you described -- and then IMO it would be fine. Maybe you want to say more specifically what you're talking about....
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 06:27 PM

[img]http://postimage.org/image/myjivzflb/[/img]

I played it with two hands because I can make it MUCH more lovely doing it that way. But I guess that's "cheating" and points would be taken off..
Posted By: Mark_C

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by lostaccato
I played it with two hands because I can make it MUCH more lovely doing it that way....

I DOUBT IT. smile

It's bad not because it's cheating, but because it's very unlikely you'd be able to play it as well as with just the R.H.

And BTW, IMO, if someone has trouble playing that passage with the RH alone, they will certainly (certainly) have loads of other problems with the piece -- which will be the main issue, not what fingering they use on that last riff.

The plot thickens. ha

The issue was never what was stated in the OP.
Posted By: nocturne152

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by lostaccato
I played it with two hands because I can make it MUCH more lovely doing it that way....

I DOUBT IT. smile

It's bad not because it's cheating, but because it's very unlikely you'd be able to play it as well as with just the R.H.

The issue was never what was stated in the OP.


How does that make it "bad"?

And no, there aren't any other technical problems for me on that piece. May I inform you that I CAN play that last riff with my right hand alone it's just that with TWO hands I can make it sound more like I want it to sound. (i am practicing with my right hand every day though)

Posted By: The Hound

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 08:44 PM

The fingering is usually written to provide the player with what the publishers believe to be the optimal way to play the piece in question, unless I'm mistaken. In certain situations an individual may prefer to do it slightly differently. What matter should that be to anyone as long as the accuracy and all the other elements are there? The fingering is not intended as a restriction.

I guess there are exceptions to this thinking, though. For example, if you were to play Alkan's etudes for right hand only and left hand only but used both hands for each you would be defeating the concept of the pieces and the intended challenge therein. In that situation it would obviously be reasonable for a judge to take issue.
Posted By: Mark_C

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/05/12 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by The Hound
The fingering is usually written to provide the player with what the publishers believe to be the optimal way to play the piece in question, unless I'm mistaken. In certain situations an individual may prefer to do it slightly differently.....

Or very differently.
That's fine too.
Posted By: SamXu

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) - 05/06/12 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by The Hound
The fingering is usually written to provide the player with what the publishers believe to be the optimal way to play the piece in question, unless I'm mistaken. In certain situations an individual may prefer to do it slightly differently. What matter should that be to anyone as long as the accuracy and all the other elements are there? The fingering is not intended as a restriction.

I guess there are exceptions to this thinking, though. For example, if you were to play Alkan's etudes for right hand only and left hand only but used both hands for each you would be defeating the concept of the pieces and the intended challenge therein. In that situation it would obviously be reasonable for a judge to take issue.


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