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Posted By: mps989 Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 01:39 PM
I quick google search ended up in nothing so I'll ask something that has been bothering me a bit.

I don't intend to play the piano as a professional, but I'd want to be "as good as possible". There seem to be few good level amateur recordings of some advanced pieces, I think Chopin Etudes were mentioned in another thread. My question is: can amateurs be anywhere close to pros? If not, what's the missing ingredient?
I feel stupid asking this, but hey, that's why I dont use my real name here :p
Posted By: D4v3 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:17 PM
I would think that the difference can be either a result of genetics or what I call distractions.

Are you willing to forgo a family? To be considered a shut-in because you spend most of your day practicing? To perform infront of large groups of people that are expecting perfection?

Do you realize the commitment it is to be a pro, the price you must pay? I think there's a reason the saying is true that says: "It's lonely at the top".

Most of the truly gifted pianists I know are in-fact shut-ins who dont know how to socialize because they are on a completely different level and have alot of oddities.
Posted By: GrouchoMarx Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:21 PM
Wouldn't an amateur who has reached the same level as a pro, be considered a pro him/herself? Isn't the difference between professionals and amateurs that one does it as a pastime hobby and the other as a career?
So in that sense the closest an amateur can come to a pro is the point where he/she becomes one. I reckon the difference in sheer ability might be small in some cases. Hard question to answer.

Posted By: bennevis Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:29 PM
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

I was at a concert last week where the pianist played Liszt's Sonata in B minor as part of her program. It was a totally no-holds-barred performance, no playing for safety at any point (the octaves near the end were taken at breakneck speed), yet she only made 3 miss-hits throughout the entire performance. How long had she practised the work for (- she was playing this work for the first time in public)? Would any part-time pianist have the inclination to work on one work till he/she could get it to this level (assuming that it's within his technical grasp)?
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:31 PM
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

That sounds good to me.

Posted By: RealPlayer Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

I wonder if you could elaborate on that. I consider myself professional but never quite made that particular distinction, at least consciously.
Posted By: ando Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 03:41 PM
A pro follows a path of studying music with highly qualified teachers. It is through eliminating as many technical issues as possible, having unbiased critiques of your skills and musical values, as well as putting in an enormous amount of time and effort that elevates a certain few people with the requisite inherent ability to reach professional level.

It is necessarily out of reach for all but a select few with the right combination of supportive upbringing, financial means, genetic capability and extreme work-ethic. Having said that, the level of enjoyment and satisfaction in one's musical life can operate quite independently of the level you reach. I know professionals who have a torturous relationship with music - to the point where you'd question if they even like music or whether it's just an obsession with perfection which they could have pursued in any field. I know other people who love to just bash away at the piano for an hour each night and they have a ball.

In a musical sense, pros tend to be more attuned to the finer skills within a piece. They are not only technically more skilled, they are able to manipulate sound in very subtle and precise ways.

I have an particular interest in this question because I am a professional guitarist. I studied at great conservatories around the world and with great teachers. I can relate to what it takes to be a pro on guitar. On piano though, I am just an enthusiastic amateur. I am aware that I won't be able to reach the same level of proficiency on piano. There just aren't enough hours in the day and there are too many other things which occupy my time. I honestly couldn't go through it all again anyway. It is a very tough life, believe me. It emotionally challenging and you experience a lot of self doubt. Perfection is very hard to achieve, yet that is what you are aiming for as a pro.
Posted By: JdhPiano924 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

I was at a concert last week where the pianist played Liszt's Sonata in B minor as part of her program. It was a totally no-holds-barred performance, no playing for safety at any point (the octaves near the end were taken at breakneck speed), yet she only made 3 miss-hits throughout the entire performance. How long had she practised the work for (- she was playing this work for the first time in public)? Would any part-time pianist have the inclination to work on one work till he/she could get it to this level (assuming that it's within his technical grasp)?


I like your distinction as well. Another good way to think of it, A professional gets a paycheck.
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

That sounds good to me.



don't agree, professional practices (not "practises" Dave) to be able to cover up mistakes which are inevitable anyway.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

I was at a concert last week where the pianist played Liszt's Sonata in B minor as part of her program. It was a totally no-holds-barred performance, no playing for safety at any point (the octaves near the end were taken at breakneck speed), yet she only made 3 miss-hits throughout the entire performance. How long had she practised the work for (- she was playing this work for the first time in public)? Would any part-time pianist have the inclination to work on one work till he/she could get it to this level (assuming that it's within his technical grasp)?
So the woman in your second paragraph wasn't a professional because she did make mistakes?

I've heard plenty of professional pianists makes mistakes. Both Rubinsteins made a lot of mistakes. Cortot wasn't a professional?

I think it goes without saying most amateurs would make more mistakes on a given technically difficult piece than a good professional since most pros have better technique. I think the distinction between practicing to reduce the number of mistakes vs. to avoid mistakes highly artificial...the aim for both is no mistakes.
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 04:49 PM
everybody makes mistakes, make no mistake about it laugh
the art and professionalism is to use your mistakes to your advantage.
Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 04:51 PM
How good you are has nothing to do with if you're a professional or amateur. I've heard some "amateurs" that play tons better than some "professionals" I"ve come across. It's just about who does what for a living.
Posted By: musica71 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 05:18 PM
I agree absolutely with the last post...some amateurs are incredible...but do not make a living with it.
Posted By: natty_dread78 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 05:32 PM
To me, it's pretty much like sports.
The practical difference boils down to:

- a pro practices several hours a day, it's (part of) his job
- an amateur (at least in my case) practices a few hours per week, mainly because he has a job

But a pro may have succeeded because of several reasons: his natural abilities (if that exists), his amount of work and dedication, his relationships/contacts in the music industry, chance, etc etc
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I mentioned it before on a similar thread, but a well-kmown pianist put the difference succintly: an amateur practises in order to reduce the number of mistakes, but a professional practises in order to avoid making mistakes.

That sounds good to me.



don't agree, professional practices (not "practises" Dave) to be able to cover up mistakes which are inevitable anyway.


motif, if you're going to correct someone, do it accurately.

Firstly, I didn't write everything in that quote, only what was not italicized. Secondly, practises is perfectly fine for British spelling.

It really does seem that those who make the most noise have the quietest profiles. Why is that, you think? laugh

(motif, remember, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you. smile )
Practice/practise follows the same rule as advice/advise in British English. "It is important to develop good practice habits when you practise."

End of OT grammar lesson. wink
Posted By: JGonzalezGUS Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 06:56 PM
Several thoughts:
1) an amateur practices until he/she gets it right; a professional practices until there's not a chance of getting it wrong (of course, they're also human wink
2) on any given day, an amateur could play as well as a professional and a professional could have an awful day and play horribly (thoug that shouldn't happen often)
3) in addition to technique, a professional has 'control' of the sound; he/she has a good idea of what sound he wants, has learned to listen to the sound coming out of the instrument and adjust accordingly
4) any given musical passage when an amateur wants it to sound a certain way, it will sound that way more or less half of the time; a professional will make it sound THAT way literraly 100% of the time - in other words, a professional will be more consistent

Like I said, my thoughts....
Posted By: sophial Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by JGonzalezGUS
Several thoughts:
1) an amateur practices until he/she gets it right; a professional practices until there's not a chance of getting it wrong (of course, they're also human wink
2) on any given day, an amateur could play as well as a professional and a professional could have an awful day and play horribly (thoug that shouldn't happen often)
3) in addition to technique, a professional has 'control' of the sound; he/she has a good idea of what sound he wants, has learned to listen to the sound coming out of the instrument and adjust accordingly
4) any given musical passage when an amateur wants it to sound a certain way, it will sound that way more or less half of the time; a professional will make it sound THAT way literraly 100% of the time - in other words, a professional will be more consistent

Like I said, my thoughts....


+1
Posted By: PaulaPiano34 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 08:16 PM
A friend of mine and her teacher were actually discussing this the other day. The teacher was saying that although my friend is very talented, he subtly hinted it's time for her to "make the bridge" and start playing with more professionalism quote: "You don't want them to just think oh, that's a very talented young pianist; you want them to think: that person is a professional". One thing they also discussed is how professional musicians generally play broader and bolder with interpretation. They also discussed the fact that professionals don't usually make little mistakes like fingerslips, etc... because they practice their piece until it's impossible to make a mistake that way. When professionals do make a mistake (memory slip or something) they can usually patch it up and improvise around it so it looks/sounds to the ordinary ear like it never happened. Just my input...
--Milana
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

It really does seem that those who make the most noise have the quietest profiles. Why is that, you think? laugh


FYI, your profile is even more empty then mine, but you'll never understand this.


p.s.
you're not British , remember? or not...
Professional by definition is that they make they're money as a musician. Amateur by definition only means that they do something ELSE for a living.

"Practice" is correct spelling in American English, but I'm pretty "practise" is fine in England, kind of like "colour"/"color".
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

It really does seem that those who make the most noise have the quietest profiles. Why is that, you think? laugh


FYI, your profile is even more empty then mine, but you'll never understand this.


p.s.
you're not British , remember? or not...


motif, can't you read and comprehend? I didn't write what you ascribed to me.


Posted By: dolce sfogato Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 09:41 PM
all answers read, I miss this: am's love the music, pro's live the music.
Posted By: JdhPiano924 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 09:47 PM
I think a big problem with saying Pros live the music is it brings up to many philosophical arguments.

What about composers such as Schumann who wrote a lot, does this mean he was an amatuer?
Posted By: Drunk3nFist Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:33 PM
Professionals get paid, do it for a living, so they are expected to have higher standards. What makes this even easier for professionals is that they have literally their whole lifetime to practice and improve. Amateurs mostly don't get paid, and only make their piano playing a part-time occupation,, thats why most people think they will never reach the same standards of a professional. But with a good mix of talent and hard work, I believe an amateur can also play at a 'professional' level.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
all answers read, I miss this: am's love the music, pro's live the music.


When it comes to the arts, most people have romanticized notions.

Just like any profession, you have those who live and breathe their work, others who are equally great and devoted to their craft but treat it like a job, and everything in between.
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
all answers read, I miss this: am's love the music, pro's live the music.


When it comes to the arts, most people have romanticized notions.

Just like any profession, you have those who live and breathe their work, others who are equally great and devoted to their craft but treat it like a job, and everything in between.


you cannot treat art as a job, once you do you're only craftsman not an artist, hence no better then pianola.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
all answers read, I miss this: am's love the music, pro's live the music.


When it comes to the arts, most people have romanticized notions.

Just like any profession, you have those who live and breathe their work, others who are equally great and devoted to their craft but treat it like a job, and everything in between.


you cannot treat art as a job, once you do you're only craftsman not an artist, hence no better then pianola.


Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.

Posted By: Lingyis Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:53 PM
what i'm more interested in... is whether, for a given piece, an amateur can play better than professionals.

perhaps even world-class professionals.

right now i tend to think it's possible, at least for less ambitious pieces. like, i imagine, many amateurs play "fur elise" better than professionals... i think many chopin waltzes and perhaps nocturnes are within reach for good amateurs.

gilbert kaplan, economist by trade, became the foremost authority on Mahler's 2nd symphony. the thing is, he's a one-trick pony--said symphony is the only piece he has ever conducted (at least up till a few years ago). so, at least when it comes to interpreting, "amateurs" can do better than professionals. but when there are such technical requirements at the piano, i wonder.
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.


I'd rather be poser then pianola.
whistle
Posted By: david_a Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/26/10 11:07 PM
There is no either-or in treating art like a job and treating it like something you love. If it is indeed your job, then it's always both, and the only question is "how much", not "if".

And a dedicated amateur could conceivably treat it LIKE his job, i.e. seriously and without excuses, even if it wasn't what people paid him to do.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.

Curious ... are all those Mp3's on your site covers Dave? If so, that ain't art either.
Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:44 AM
Let's please not get started on what's "art" and what isn't, because I may just throw my laptop out the window in rage this time.

(and I like my laptop)
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.

Curious ... are all those Mp3's on your site covers Dave? If so, that ain't art either.


Oh wonderful, now I'm being critiqued by a New Age musician.


Create Your Own Beautiful New Age Piano Music Now ... Even If You've Never Touched A Keyboard In Your Life!


Easily SIGN UP NOW with Safe Secure PayPal!
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.


I'd rather be poser then pianola.
whistle


Whatever you are, you are most definitely silent. (Of course I meant musically silent, not verbally silent. smile )
Posted By: mps989 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 10:47 AM
I was aware the first thing to come in mind would the payment issue, that's why I chose to ask "can amateurs be anywere close to pros" instead of "What's the dif between ams/pros". But the answers made me feel a lot better and feel like there's a point in practicing after all.
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by mps989
the answers made me feel a lot better and feel like there's a point in practicing after all.


Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice. You do it because the passion inside of you won't allow you NOT TO. Now you won't always FEEL like practising, but that's not the point. You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 11:09 AM
Stores, don't be so romantic. Professional musicians practice even when they don't want to because they have very high standards. I won't accept a job when I come back from vacation since I'm not in shape. Being a professional musician is much like being a professional athlete. You're always in training.
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Stores, don't be so romantic. Professional musicians practice even when they don't want to because they have very high standards. I won't accept a job when I come back from vacation since I'm not in shape. Being a professional musician is much like being a professional athlete. You're always in training.


Who's being romantic? I meant every word I said.
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Stores, don't be so romantic. Professional musicians practice even when they don't want to because they have very high standards. I won't accept a job when I come back from vacation since I'm not in shape. Being a professional musician is much like being a professional athlete. You're always in training.


Well, he would know. wink

My teacher and my former teacher say the same thing, as well as the other professionals I meet/have met.

And yes, I practice even when I don't want to, but I find inspiration WHILE practicing and end the end, enjoy it like I did before!

For example (and even if this is off topic, I still want to share), if I need to practice Mozart but don't want to, I'll listen to one of his string quartets or something like that... Mozart gives me some unique feeling of joy and bliss, and when I hear it from his string quartets, it renews my inspiration and makes me want to produce that same feeling in the sonata I'm playing
Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Stores, don't be so romantic. Professional musicians practice even when they don't want to because they have very high standards. I won't accept a job when I come back from vacation since I'm not in shape. Being a professional musician is much like being a professional athlete. You're always in training.


I think stores knows what it's like to be a professional musician, seeing as he is one.

I didn't find his speech romantic - it's true. What you said is true as well - although I did have to accept a gig right after I got back from "vacation" because I had to.. so I had about 2 days to get back into shape and learn the damn thing..
Posted By: apple* Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by stores
You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!


it's wonderful isn't it?

-apple, definitely an amateur
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.

Curious ... are all those Mp3's on your site covers Dave? If so, that ain't art either.


Oh wonderful, now I'm being critiqued by a New Age musician.

As if Jazz is all that great. Seriously Dave - where's your art?
Posted By: apple* Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:13 PM
frown
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:28 PM
As if Jazz is all that great. Seriously Dave - where's your art?

Create Your Own Beautiful New Age Piano Music Now ... Even If You've Never Touched A Keyboard In Your Life!


Easily SIGN UP NOW with Safe Secure PayPal!


Not that's ART! grin

Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:46 PM
Nice diversion Dave. But I'm afraid you're evading. Or are you just a poser?
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Nice diversion Dave. But I'm afraid you're evading. Or are you just a poser?


eweiss, I searched your site but could not find any examples of your playing. Am I not looking in the correct place?

Since I've made my living by performing, you know, by playing in real time on a piano with real people listening - and paying to listen, somehow I thought that excluded me as being labeled a poser. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

Where could I catch you performing ... live, that is? I have friends in your area. I'd love to fly over and hear you play ... and please provide links to your playing. smile

Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:58 PM
Dave, you called 'motif' a poser for not showing his art. I'm simply wondering if you have anything to show other than cover tunes.

Some of my stuff is over at http://www.youtube.com/user/edwardweiss

I used to perform live. Not anymore. When I did, it was my own material. Yes ... believe it or not, people paying to hear New Age piano live.

So where's your art? smile
Posted By: jazzyprof Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss

So where's your art? smile

You are becoming an annoyance on this board.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by eweiss

So where's your art? smile

You are becoming an annoyance on this board.

Don't you mean I'm becoming an annoyance to you? You won't silence me nor will those who don't like me or what I have to say. Don't like it? Click away.
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by eweiss

So where's your art? smile

You are becoming an annoyance on this board.


Becoming? Old Ed has been an annoyance long before now, but he's not a bad guy...he just likes to run his mouth from time to time, but then I run my mouth a little too often sometimes too.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:13 PM
Wow ... thanks for vetting me Stores. And 48 ain't that old. smile
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Wow ... thanks for vetting me Stores. And 48 ain't that old. smile


Shhhhhhh...you'll ruin my image!
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Dave, you called 'motif' a poser for not showing his art. I'm simply wondering if you have anything to show other than cover tunes.

Some of my stuff is over at http://www.youtube.com/user/edwardweiss

I used to perform live. Not anymore. When I did, it was my own material. Yes ... believe it or not, people paying to hear New Age piano live.

So where's your art? smile


eweiss, I've listened to your Rain Forest and am now seriously considering selling both my pianos. I'm thinking of having a keyboard designed for me that only consists of diatonic tones. I realize now how much of my musical life has been wasted by spreading myself over 12 chromatic tones when seven diatonic tones are all that are really needed to create satisfying, organic music.

I see my musical life making a complete circle. I started by playing purely diatonic music even before I could read music and then expanded my horizons harmonically to include chromaticism. I can now return to the music of my infancy and complete the circle of life and the circle of music at the same time.

Thank you so much for sharing this with me - it was so organic. I now feel truly grounded.

I did notice a strange nearly constant rain like noise which competed with your piano playing. Perhaps that is some kind of internet anomaly or electrical interference.

Good luck with your art.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:27 PM
Fascinating analysis Dave. But even though you may not like what I've done here, your response is not unexpected as it is with all who put down others but have nothing to show themselves.

Again Dave, where's your art? Or are you just a poser? I'm assuming the latter since you have nothing to show except old cover tunes.
Posted By: rocket88 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by apple*
frown


I second that emotion.
Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 05:59 PM
Wtf is going on?? You people call that new age crap art?

I'm sorry, I had to say it. In the words of someone, don't like it - click away.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Wtf is going on?? You people call that new age crap art?

I'm sorry, I had to say it. In the words of someone, don't like it - click away.

Of course it's art pogo. As is your Beethoven, Chopin, etc. Except the difference is they created it. Believe it or not, the title of this site is Piano World - not classical Piano World.

Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 06:19 PM
Ok. I guess we can call many things art.

I thought you didn't think interpretations were art? I'm glad you changed.

Also there is a non-classical pianist corner.
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Until you provide us with your art, you're just a poser.

Curious ... are all those Mp3's on your site covers Dave? If so, that ain't art either.
I've listened to these mp3's - Dave's a damn fine artist.
Posted By: Andromaque Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/27/10 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by apple*
Originally Posted by stores
You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!


it's wonderful isn't it?

-apple, definitely an amateur


smile
apple, I love your posts.. Gracious, brief and to the point.
I am most definitely an amateur, and I can pick the best of them in any crowd.
Posted By: Frozenicicles Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 04:54 AM
Amateurs either weren't successful at trying to be professionals or didn't want to be professionals. The average professional will be better than the average amateur, but of course there exists amateurs who are better than an average professional. A top level amateur is probably not as good as a top level professional. I would think of them as being overlapping distribution curves, with amateurs being more skewed towards the unskilled side and professionals skewed largely towards the skilled side.

Originally Posted by mps989
...My question is: can amateurs be anywhere close to pros? If not, what's the missing ingredient?...

The missing ingredient is enough time, energy and motivation to devote wholly to the instrument.
Posted By: wr Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by PlebiousPianist
Practice/practise follows the same rule as advice/advise in British English. "It is important to develop good practice habits when you practise."

End of OT grammar lesson. wink


That's the way I learned it, too. But in the US, not Britain.

Posted By: wr Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by stores
Old Ed has been an annoyance long before now, but he's not a bad guy...


He has tried at least twice that I know of to intimate that kbk had an anti-Semitic intent for posting "Arbeit macht frei" in response to a Goethe quote (which was directly related in meaning to that phrase). These were both at times when kbk wasn't allowed to post responses. So I have to wonder a little about "Old Ed" and his position in the good/bad guy spectrum - attacking someone who can't respond, over something that is not even necessarily meant in the way he is taking it. Not to mention that right before the first instance, IIRC, the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.
Posted By: mps989 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by mps989
the answers made me feel a lot better and feel like there's a point in practicing after all.


Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice. You do it because the passion inside of you won't allow you NOT TO. Now you won't always FEEL like practising, but that's not the point. You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!


Yea, I had a bad day yesterday (the piano wouldn't do what i wanted it to do...), but now I started a new Chopin Waltz and couldn't agree more with you ^^
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


You're a little more than odd...just sayin'. But it's not that "I wish"...if money, ego, or fame were my motivation I'd probably have either quit or done myself in many moons ago.
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


But I think there may be a slight difference between people making deeper, complex, very emotion evoking art and being an entertainer controlled by the industry...
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


But I think there may be a slight difference between people making deeper, complex, very emotion evoking art and being an entertainer controlled by the industry...


I don't know, listen to Alejandro very nice melody that actually it could be theme to a piano concerto.
How do you define deeper or complex art?

[video:youtube]crYDOdZ2LC4[/video]

BTW I heard many nasty stories about hate, envy and unhealthy competition in classical, concert pianist world...so where is the love of what they're doing...

Posted By: boo1234 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 04:05 PM
It's the same thing that separates pro athletes from amateurs. Either you have it or you don't. While there may be some amateurs that can play as well as some professionals, a lot of luck also has to be factored in... like being born to parents who will help to nurture your abilities... having access to good teachers... knowing the right people to advance your career.. etc
Posted By: sophial Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Lingyis
what i'm more interested in... is whether, for a given piece, an amateur can play better than professionals.

perhaps even world-class professionals.

right now i tend to think it's possible, at least for less ambitious pieces. like, i imagine, many amateurs play "fur elise" better than professionals... i think many chopin waltzes and perhaps nocturnes are within reach for good amateurs.

gilbert kaplan, economist by trade, became the foremost authority on Mahler's 2nd symphony. the thing is, he's a one-trick pony--said symphony is the only piece he has ever conducted (at least up till a few years ago). so, at least when it comes to interpreting, "amateurs" can do better than professionals. but when there are such technical requirements at the piano, i wonder.


Why would you think that? all the skills that professionals work to develop apply just as much to "simple" pieces like "Fur Elise"-- phrasing, control over dynamics and rubato, tone coloration, interpretation. A great pianist can make a piece like Fur Elise sound as if you're hearing it for the first time, in ways you never may have thought about it. Listen to what Horowitz does for "Traumerei" compared to your average amateur.... there is no comparison.

Sophia
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by wr
...the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.

Defenseless? Now that's really funny. FYI, he had ample opportunity to defend and/or explain himself but chose to remain silent - somewhat like what a martyr might do.

Of course I had to Google the phrase as I don't speak German. But after translating - discovered the meaning. You'd have to be really obtuse not to get the 'gist' of what he wrote. But maybe I am wrong. I don't know what he 'really' meant since he never explained himself. The door's still open for that.

Posted By: keyboardklutz Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by wr
...the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.

Defenseless? Now that's really funny. FYI, he had ample opportunity to defend and/or explain himself but chose to remain silent - somewhat like what a martyr might do.

Of course I had to Google the phrase as I don't speak German. But after translating - discovered the meaning. You'd have to be really obtuse not to get the 'gist' of what he wrote. But maybe I am wrong. I don't know what he 'really' meant since he never explained himself. The door's still open for that.
Alright, I think I'm owed a chance to defend myself here. I got an email from a poster saying I was banned, it mentioned Ed, I emailed back - these are my actual words - "Ed's OK, he's got his own thing." Now is this something an Ed hating anti-semite would write? It's only later I discovered Ed had made all the fuss in the first place - obviously my opinion of him has changed! Of course Ed knows all this cause I emailed him during my banishment.
Posted By: eweiss Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:30 PM
Never got an email from you klutz. Not saying you never sent one. I never recieved it. And it still doesn't explain why you wrote what you did in German.
Posted By: keyboardklutz Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:33 PM
Go back to the thread. Plenty worked that out. As for why I didn't respond - while you were posting your complaints it was 3am here. I was banned before I was even out of bed! (not the first time either)
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:49 PM
Jesu Christi! You two are STILL yapping about that crap? Ed, Klutz...LET IT GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Posted By: keyboardklutz Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:52 PM
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!
Posted By: stores Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/28/10 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p
Cmon I don't think you have the right to call him that which I believe you did.
Inb4lock.

Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p
Cmon I don't think you have the right to call him that which I believe you did.


Well, if he does, that really means something, haha!!

Jk stores wink
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/29/10 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Since I've made my living by performing, you know, by playing in real time on a piano with real people listening - and paying to listen, somehow I thought that excluded me as being labeled a poser. Perhaps I'm wrong though.


well, people are paying for the dinner, music is just a background for better digestion... Have you ever played recital with 80% of your original material where people paid just for music???
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/29/10 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Since I've made my living by performing, you know, by playing in real time on a piano with real people listening - and paying to listen, somehow I thought that excluded me as being labeled a poser. Perhaps I'm wrong though.


well, people are paying for the dinner, music is just a background for better digestion... Have you ever played recital with 80% of your original material where people paid just for music???


motif, you know, you have a very quiet profile. It's so quiet that no one has heard you.

Please provide us with .... something.

motif, delirium, Robert Urban - where is your CV?, your mp3's?, your YouTube's? .... quiet, very quiet.

Again, as always, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you. laugh


Posted By: frida11 Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/29/10 08:13 PM
There are many classes of professionals and many classes of amateur. If the definitive definition is accepted to be separating those who make an income from performing (professional), and those who do not (amateur), these are my observations from my experience as an amateur, knowing a few professional classical pianists.

A professional will have every skill at a high level that amateurs may not have. These include sightreading, memorization, and a knowledge of a wide repertoire, among other things. The professional may not necessarily produce a better finished product than some amateurs, but he/she must have these skills. Many professionals also have a good organizational ability and a talent for self-promotion. If the professional is a soloist, they will need the requisite skills to play major repertoire. If the professional is mainly engaged in accompaniment, or possibly ensemble, he/she may be less capable than some amateurs in playing very virtuosic pieces.

Finally, the professional will have had the experience of performing starting as a child, even if only in small town recitals for a local teacher. This performance experience will, by the time he/she enters a professional career, set his skills on a different plane.

IMO musical sensitivity, "art," or other subjective measures have less to do with the distinction between amateur and professional than the skills that can be quantified.
Posted By: Roger Ransom Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/29/10 11:33 PM
You guys sound like a bunch of immature middle school kids on the playground. Keep it up, it's hilarious to read though.

In response to the OPs question:

Pros get paid, amateurs don't. It's as simple as that.
Posted By: Pogorelich. Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/29/10 11:52 PM
Who are you talking to?
Posted By: motif Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/30/10 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Again, as always, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you. laugh


only counts who is laughing last.
Posted By: Dave Horne Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/30/10 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by Dave Horne

Again, as always, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you. laugh


only counts who is laughing last.


You provide us with proof that you actually can play and I'll take back everything I ever wrote about you.

You can't provide us with a small sample of ......... ANYTHING? smile ...... ANYTHING?

It doesn't even have to be a mp3, it can be a midi file that you can tweak, polish, and bring up to tempo. ANYTHING!

It's bad enough you hide behind various names, it's simply amusing how you continue to avoid providing us a sample of your creative mind.


ANYTHING? smile
Posted By: MrLiszthoven Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/30/10 09:12 AM
Amateurs don't get paid for it. And perhaps if you can play well enough to be a professional then consecutively you become one.
Posted By: bennevis Re: Difference between amateurs/pros? - 11/30/10 11:49 AM
A professional has to produce the goods each and every time: unless you're already a big name (and even if you are) you're only as good as your last concert. Once the audience starts dwindling or you get bad reviews one after the other, the engagements dry up. And unless you're Michelangeli or Argerich, you can't just cancel because you don't like the hall or the piano or the weather or the smell of the audience or...

In other words, you have to be at the top of your form all the time, and never miss out on your practising. An amateur plays to suit himself; he doesn't have to please anyone else. Hence he can splatter wrong/missed notes all over the place (cf the quote I posted earlier) and only practise when he feels like it.

That's why very few amateurs ever reach the standard required of a professional.
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