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Questions Without Answers

Posted By: all thumb

Questions Without Answers - 03/16/02 05:53 PM

All Forums of this nature must have at least one post of this type - so here goes:

Reading a number of Posts it seems that a lot of people hear are religious or (even better) spiritual. Anyway I myself am a believer in a divine being and do not believe in evolution (at least not a Darwinian view). My proof of a God would simply be " I think therefore I am and if I am then He is"

So if we believe in a God then you probably read or have a Bible. Now I just want to ask a couple of questions WRT the Bible.

1. In Genisis during the creation when God says "Let there be light" where is this light coming from? The sun, moon, stars are not created until later.

2. Assuming the story of Adam and Eve are literal. Where did Cain (or Abel - cant remember which was killed) get a wife from if Adam and Eve are supposedly the only beings around and the origin of the entire human race? It seems that they weren't the only people around.

These are but a couple of obvious questions which cannot be definitively answered and are interesting (at least to me). Please add any other thought provokers you may think about each and every day.
Posted By: aznxk3vi17

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/16/02 11:39 PM

To answer that second question, the theory is that God first created Lilith as the first human woman, and wasn't subservient enough for Adam, so she was banished, and Eve was then created from his rib. Later, Cain, who was banished, found Lilith, and they had children, which is a theory that Mankind originated from an unpure offspring, explaining how we are so evil.
Posted By: Matt G.

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/17/02 03:17 AM

As I recall, there is no mention made that Cain and Abel were the *only* children of Adam and Eve. Feel free to draw your own conclusion.
Posted By: Penny

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/17/02 05:53 AM

To answer the first question (and I agree with Matt G.'s interpretation in the second question): God Himself in a preincarnate Jesus, who is often referred to as the "light." I mean, if He is God, He's definitely powerful enough to be His own light source, isn't He?

Posted By: all thumb

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 02:59 AM


I believe that there most definitely were other people around that are not mentioned in the Bible, early in Genesis, whether descendants of Adam and Eve is probably a moot point. I tend to believe in a factual/literal interpretation of the Bible – FOR THE MOST PART – based on what archaeology has proven, it's quite amazing!

I don't buy that we are “unpure offspring” though. There were no laws against what we now call incest initially and probably human physiology at that time would allow this without the physical consequences that occur today. It would have to be this way in order to populate the earth initially. Eventually – as part of G-d's ultimate plan – this type of relationship was deemed unnatural and a sin, probably so that we would be forced to wander further abroad in search of a suitable mate and populate the whole earth (much the way the “Tower of Babel” story would lead to distinct cultures. I believe that when this judgment was made G-d altered our physiology/ genetics so that if people engaged in this sort of behavior there would be undesirable consequences.

I also agree with Penny that the light that is being referred to is probably more of a “spiritual or awareness of existence” light and not a physical thing. I believe that G-d and Jesus are separate entities though. The Bible refers to countless angels and beings which he created that are immortal so why not a separate “Jesus”. He created Lucifer who was second only to G-d himself. I always wonder if these angels and beings simply exist in a different dimension or simply in a part of the light spectrum that we cannot perceive and keep notes on each and every one of us from birth to death?

As an aside it is clear that G-d is perfect. If he is perfect then he can only create perfection, which is what he did create according to the Bible. However, it is quite clear that the universe is not a perfect place there is quite clearly mass destruction and damage done on a monumental scale. Is this evidence that the story in Psalms about Lucifer and a 1/3 of the angels rebelling against G-d in heaven proof that there was a struggle which caused huge destruction throughout the universe (possibly destroying a previous Earth – and the dinosaurs) which then required the creation of another Earth?

So what is the purpose of man/womankind. I most definitely do not believe that we are destined to go to “heaven” and bow to G-d and eternally praise him, that sounds oh so boring!!. This is what angels do. The Bible is clear in saying that the Earth will exist forever. It is our home and where we are meant to be. I believe that our time of ruining ourselves and the Earth is nearing an end and G-d or Jesus will return and force us to follow the path that we seem incapable of following on our own – we most desperately need divine intervention – if we have learned nothing else in 6000 years we have learned that we cannot rule ourselves. People do not seem to understand that we do not own the Earth, it was given to us to look after and enjoy and we have failed most miserably in this. I believe that very soon we will be forced to return this Earth to a pristine state and maybe in the future be allowed to explore (and maybe repair) the entire universe. We will be given a spirit body which can still enjoy the pleasures of life but will not “need” food or rest to live but can indulge in them as “pleasures”. Of course you first have to prove that you are worthy of eternal life.

I find the hardest thing to get my mind around is that G-d has always existed – with no beginning and no end. That's phenomenal and yet it must be true because we exist.

I don't believe there is a great mystery to the meaning of life, it's quite simple. Be nice, apply the Golden Rule and have a good heart. Anything else will not get you were you want to go.

All right I'm off the soap box. Sorry for the rambling. Other views please.
Posted By: T2

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 03:40 AM

Problem of evil, teleological argument, ontological argument, cosmological argument. Previous philosophers and theologians have run through that already such that I have little to add. The conclusion from both the skeptics such as David Hume and believers such as Aquinas is that the existence of God can neither be proven or disproven by pure reason. This was standard curriculum for undergrad philosophy last time I checked.

Have fun in your discussion. I hope it doesn't turn into a nasty brawl. Lots of passion any time you question somebody's religion...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 04:49 AM

All Thumb --

Why do you believe all of this? What has led you to these conclusions?
Posted By: all thumb

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 06:15 AM

Hi George,

I just find other possibilities interesting compared to standard theological thinking. I do not care for religions that have done more harm than good to mankind, which is pretty much all of them. How many have died in the name of religion? It's insane how people have murdered/tortured/deceived in the name of the same G-d. It is such folly how so many millions will go to a place of worship religiously (couldn't resist) each Sunday/Saturday but not give G-d another thought at any other time. And why would I want to confess my sins to another human I don't even know (and who is probably a bigger sinner than I)? A relationship with G-d is on an individual level, it has to be as only you will be accountable for your actions.

The only things I truly believe are the existence of a supreme being, that we are living in dangerous times and that our actions/motives while alive will determine whether we will be allowed the opportunity to exist eternally. I think it would be cruel of a supreme being to bring us into existence, to let us experience all the joys and beauties that life has to offer and then have us cease to exist? It would not make any sense, it would be better to have never existed. Let's face it, our time on Earth is over in the blink of an eye, relatively speaking. Why give us a taste of what existence has to offer if not for the opportunity of having it forever? Having said that I'm sure many would probably not want an eternal life – but they would be missing the point – who would not want life in perfect health and state of mind? Our biggest failing as a western society is how we have let so much of the world suffer while we spend absurd amounts of money and time in preparing for war. We have reached the point where we will not advance any further as a species unless the world is brought under one government and I'm not talking about a human led government either.

I guess a lot of what I think may be true is based on biblical prophecies. I see the events shaping up quite nicely for the “end times”. Although I am not a bible thumping doomsday proponent I do believe that a war is going to happen very soon (10 years?) between Israel and Russia/China which will be the 3rd World War.

Now more points to ponder! It's amazing how many people actually believe that Jesus was born on Christmas Dec 25th and yet don't realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday that existed long before Jesus ever showed up and the same is true of Easter. If people are going to defend to the death their beliefs then should they not know as much as they can about their religion? Why blindly accept what they are spoon fed? Isn't Jesus's death infinitely more important than his birth? But then again Christmas has very little to do with religion anymore.
Posted By: DT

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 01:05 PM

Yes, Jesus's death is more important than His birth but His victory over death is the ultimate. That is what we celebrate at Easter and the fact that there was a pagan holiday for the goddess Oestre is just one of these red herrings folks throw out. If you worship the Easter bunny, then you're going back to Oestre. If you're celebrating Christ's resurrection, then you're doing something completely different. Many of the practices within the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, were adapted from pagan rites to help the pagans accept Christ. The meanings behind the rites were changed to represent the Church's beliefs and supplant that of the pagans. It's like beating swords into plows where the metal has taken on a new, useful purpose and lost its old destructive one.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 01:59 PM

Thanks, Thumb.

I understand what you are saying about where you are in your thinking. However, why have you chosen a particularly Christian slant to this and why have you chosen the Christian Scripture to base your expectations of the end times on?
Posted By: Matt G.

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 06:22 PM

Originally posted by DT:
The meanings behind the rites were changed to represent the Church's beliefs and supplant that of the pagans. It's like beating swords into plows where the metal has taken on a new, useful purpose and lost its old destructive one.

DT, what a great analogy! That one's a keeper!
Posted By: Samejame

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 07:11 PM

...Christmas is a pagan holiday that existed long before Jesus ever showed up and the same is true of Easter.

I believe Christmas was supplanted around the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, for Christians to counter the pagen rituals of that time. Actually, some pagen rituals for that time of year have carried over into the Christian holiday. The christmas tree - the candles (originally) were part of the pagen ritual of celebrating the end of the longest night at solstice, and the star of Bethlehem was incorporated into the pagen candle ritual to evolve into what we now know as the Christmas tree.

But I can't racall what Easter was designated to "compete" against. Christ was killed at the time of Passover, and the fact that Christianity's most sacred feast coincided with the pre-Christian feast of Passover is of significance, but what pagen event occured at Easter?

Posted By: Penny

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/18/02 07:47 PM

All Thumb wrote:

I also agree with Penny that the light that is being referred to is probably more of a “spiritual or awareness of existence” light and not a physical thing.

I didn't say that! I said God was the source of the light! It was a real light! Again, if He is all-powerful enough to create the world, He is omnipotent enough to provide the light source. Not a huge issue for me. Besides, how else could have plants sprouted before the sun and moons and stars were created on the fourth day?

All Thumb, are you Jewish? You write G-d like many other practicing Jews.


Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/19/02 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Samejame:

But I can't racall what Easter was designated to "compete" against. Christ was killed at the time of Passover, and the fact that Christianity's most sacred feast coincided with the pre-Christian feast of Passover is of significance, but what pagen event occured at Easter?

The celebration of Easter is close to the beginning of spring. March 21st is the beginning of spring and also happens to be the longest day of the year. In that respect it's the counterpoint of Christmas.
The name Easter comes from the germanic(or was it nordic?) goddess Ostera who was worshipped in pagan times at the beginning of spring. I think Ostera was a/the goddess of fertility.
What is still left from the pagan feast in the christian celebration of Easter is the Easter egg and the bonfire lit on Easter sunday.
The egg was a symbol for fertility and a bonfire ended almost every pagan feast.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Nici ]
Posted By: Charles68

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/19/02 08:12 AM

I'm a Christian, and, being one, believe that philosophy is good, and conjecture is your own thing.
I also believe that the scripture can be interpreted in thousands of ways.
God told Moses, "I AM" If He's omnipotent, omniscience,omnipresent, etc, He doesn't have to have a reason OR a source for anything He did/does.
The mere fact that He decided to create Heaven and earth is sufficient unto itself. How can we presume to know His mind, or speculate on His resources?

Free thought is a gift given by Him. So, exercise it!!
Posted By: Samejame

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/19/02 01:17 PM

Sorry Nici, but March 21 is Spring Equinox - (equal day and night), and the first day of spring. June 20/21 is Summer Solstice, and the longest day of the year.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/19/02 03:42 PM


really? If so I did (again) mix up equinox with solstice. I can't seem to remember which is which wink
The rest of the story, I believe, is true - unless I was told total nonsense in school.
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/21/02 07:08 AM

Here is something to consider; While in Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal, and lived hundreds or perhaps thousands of years, and had countless children before Cain and Able. If you recall, after their original sin, God decreed that "they would surely die". The Bible may imply that they may have lived a very long time with death not being possible. Only after sin did death become a reality. If a light from Heaven suddenly lit up your livingroom and the voice of God said; 'Because you have broken the speed limit in a school zone you shall surely die.' You would think to yourself...Well duh..... of course... as if I was immortal anyway, so what is the downside? But if you WERE immortal, then death would take on a whole new meaning. Eve was also cursed with pain during childbirth. If Cain and Able with Eve's first children, the pain of their birth would seem irrelevent. If Eve had given birth in Eden without pain, and perhaps even with pleasure, then post Eden childbirth with pain would be a very real reminder of what the consequences were to sinning against God. So IF Adam and Eve were immortal in Eden and lived hundreds of years or more, and gave painfree birth to hundreds of children, then Cain would have had little problem finding other children or their decendents to take as a wife.
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/21/02 08:24 AM

Now about seven day Creationism and Darwinism. First off, just how long is Gods day? And how would you measure it if there is no sun and earth? The account of Genesis was written in an era when there was no knowledge of atomic matter, DNA, dinosaurs, or that the earth revolved around the sun instead of viceversa. The account is a simplistic statment that says; "Everything is here because of God." The mechanics of HOW things were created is really of little concern to people living hundreds of years ago, who did not know of atoms and DNA. Suppose you deside to buy a new Ford, and get a chance to see it being manufactured. It takes seven hours to build your car. "In the third hour was your engine... and you said 'It is good'. After seven hours your car is created, but did it really take seven hours? No. The main components were assembled in seven hours, but the creation of your car actually took millions of years, starting with a prehistoric forrest that would later become the oil that would lubricate your engine, gas to make it go, and the plastic of your dashboard. The iron ore is mined, forged into steel, shaped into nuts and thrown into a bin where they wait to be attached to your engine. The list goes on and on. Ever consider how the door lock button is created? Probably not. Most people don't really care. They just want the button. Henry Ford did not build your car, but he did set into motion a chain of events that led to your new Thunderbird. The style of cars as well as the manufacturing techniques to build them EVOLVED over time. Horses were once three toed animals the size of a dog. They EVOLVED. So why couldn't humans? God could have set a chain of events in motion that caused a protein chain to become a single cell animal. Which evolved into multicelled animals and eventually humanoids. Adam could have been the first human to understand right from wrong. Perhaps God gave him this knowledge. God would then have "created" Adam, to be different than the other animals, and thus have a soul. The Bible does not give us the mechanics of exactally HOW Adam was created, (bellybutton or not?) It simply states Adam was the "first" man, perhaps to have a soul. Making him different than other humanoids. We don't know exactly how man was created, much like most of us don't know how the wires of our car were created. The bottom line, mankind exists, and can buy a new Ford. Darwinism may not be that far from the truth. The seven days may only refer to the "main componants" of Heaven, Earth, and life in general. Simplistic. Easy for people of any generation to understand. Just like your car and its components. A day may mean "Era". Each era had something new added, or evolved. How doesn't matter. The Bible says 'Everything is here because of God', and isn't that all that really matters?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/21/02 02:49 PM

I always find it interesting that creationists and other Bible literalists have so little belief in the omnipotence of God that they limit God's ability to create to that which was written to explain the origins of the world and how it works to uneducated, ignorant nomads -- as it was orginally handed down and interpreted for hundreds of years of oral tradition and then written and re-written over hundreds of more years, in hundreds of languages, none of which have fully translatable words.
Posted By: all thumb

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/22/02 04:14 AM


Sorry, I did not mean to alter what you said. Yes, I am Jewish (not by birth though) but I also believe in Jesus – trying to cover all bases!!  I am anything but observant though – I am a true true sinner!!. My main reason for becoming Jewish (I can't call it a conversion as I never had a religion) was because Jesus was Jewish and practiced all the Jewish observances/holidays throughout his life. I haven't yet decided if his death did away with the “old covenant”. The Bible says that these practices were to be “forever” and Jesus himself said that it would be easier to “pass a camel through the eye of a needle” than to change one of G-d's laws (or something similar to that). But I guess these practices were only to apply to Jews. Anyway that's a whole new topic.


You are absolutely right that the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. I like to think that if you try and do things with a good heart you can't go wrong. Our scope of thinking and understanding is extremely limited and unfortunately we will always try to measure or understand something using our limited concept of reality. Isn't it a sin to try and conceptualize G-d? Aren't we supposed to simply accept that he/she/it IS?


I also think along the same lines WRT Adam and Eve and the length of their lives. I also believe that G-d set them up with the apple knowing full well what Eve would do. I think anyone in the same position would probably have succumbed in the same manner. I imagine it was a part of the “plan” for us? WE also would live forever if all our cells would rejuvenate continuously? Something we will eventually figure out?

Any thoughts on the distinct ethnic cultures around the world? Were they created at the same time of creation or are they all descendents of Adam and Eve? I would think they were created separately.

Doesn't the Bible define a day to G-d as 1,000 years? I think this is given as a ref so that we may interpret the Bible better? It's true that we cannot create things only make things. I don't believe in Darwinian evolution though. Why would a single celled amoeba ever develop something as sophisticated as a human eye when the concept of sight isn't known? If evolution were true then there shouldn't even be any amoebas as they would have progressed beyond their simple form and thus would not be required. It seems that all organic and inorganic things have a specific place and role to play in our development. All was created for us to explore and learn from. G-d's way of teaching and entertaining us?


I can honestly say that I do not 100% believe in anything except that there is a higher intelligence that we owe our existence or consciousness to. I will not limit myself to thinking “within the box”. Anything is possible and nothing is impossible. It's just as likely that some aliens from space will show up someday and claim us as their race which they planted eon's ago. As long as a person is not harming himself or others then they can do as they please, as far as I am concerned. This life was meant to be enjoyed in a healthy and productive manner.
Posted By: Penny

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/22/02 04:38 AM

All Thumb,

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. In Galatians, it explains that the law's purpose was to point to people's need for God. It's hard to follow every rule! But Jesus was the substitute that allowed Jewish believers to stop with their sacrifices. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb (or bread or ram or whatever offering).

Paul gave many instructions for Jewish believers, as to whether they should continue certain Jewish customs (circumcism, for example). But this wouldn't necessarily apply to you because you are not Christian.

Hope that helps.
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/22/02 07:53 AM

I reread the creation in Genesis after my post instead of before...DOH! If I had reread it first, I would have reworded a few things, but my line of reasoning would be much the same. In Eden there was the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Only the tree of knowledge was forbidden. It is implyed that the tree of life allowed Adam and Eve immortality, before their sin. After A&E's fall from grace, a cherubim with a flaming sword was sent to guard the tree of life 'lest he put forth his hand and take also the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'. As for evolution, all beings are evolving. Some times it is rather subtle. For example, the average height of humans is about one or two inches more than during the times of Jesus. As I mentioned earlier, horses evolved into single hooved taller animals. Evolution largely depends on environment. Alligators, because of their smaller size, (compared to dinosaurs) survived the mass extinction of the great lizards. Because they were "just the right size" they evolved little, if any. They had no need. Giraffes, who have the name number of neck bones as a mouse, evolved a longer neck, because that's where the food was. The Earth has a simple rule: Adapt or die. Forced evolution. Whether mankind evolved from a lower life form noone can say for sure. In the long run, it probably really doesn't matter. If that information was really important, it would have been included in Genesis. And as I said before, HOW isn't important, WHO is. It really doesn't matter if you believe in the 24/7 creation or a Big Bang/Darwin creation. The end result is still the same. God made it so in the way he thought best. Anything more is just intellectual babbeling from fools like me.
Posted By: DT

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/22/02 12:56 PM

And what you are discussing is what some refer to as microevolution as opposed to macroevolution. The former is adaptation of a species to its environment which no one disputes. The latter is evolution of one species to another (fish to lizard to chicken or small mammal etc.) for which no evidence has ever been found. Even those who believe in the Big Bang have difficulty explaining what happened before that instant or what caused that instant. That's why you find more believers among scientists than among the general public.
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/23/02 07:57 AM

DT, good point about macroevolution. I never claimed to be a Darwinist, but I do think some of his ideas may have some degree of truth. But as you say, fish to lizard to chicken does seem a little far fetched.
Posted By: jgoo

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/27/02 05:56 AM

Heres another question with no logical answers that I'm starting to use as my quote: If God can do anything, could he make a rock that he couldn't lift?
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/27/02 07:05 AM

Question? Boy do I have questions! If a jester is out of work, is he nobody's fool? Do radioactive cats have 18 half-lives? If the early bird gets the worm, does the second mouse get the cheese? Speaking of the early bird, is the worm it catches the "late" worm? If Barbie is so popular, how come we have to buy her friends? How come you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends on the couch? If you smoke after sex, are you going to fast? How do I set a laser printer to stun? If I am suppossed to back up my hard drive, how do I put it in reverse? I wish I had all the answers, but when I went to the river of knowledge, I only gargled. Here are some things I do know; You can fly like an eagle, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. No matter how hard you try, you can't baptize a cat. ( Learned that one the hard way) I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Illiterate? Write for help at................
Posted By: Ruth

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/27/02 07:21 AM

the answer is 42 !


(see http://www.douglasadams.com/creations/hhgg.html)
Posted By: aznxk3vi17

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/27/02 12:05 PM

YES! The answer to life, the universe, and EVERYTHING is 42.

Just remember to bring your towel. And don't panic!
Posted By: Shadorunnr

Re: Questions Without Answers - 03/28/02 07:53 AM

Ruth, oddly enough, 42 is my age. And my mothers name is Ruth. And the towel, cotton, or paper? smile
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