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Question about Essex brand deal.

Posted By: fourinone

Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:11 AM

We are looking for a piano for my son who just started learning piano and saw this Essex brand new piano at a Steinway shop. It is a more cherrish red color(forgot the name). The model No. is EUP123, the original price was $6800, now they marked it down to $4909 plus tax and shipping $249, I am wondering if it is a really good deal? We don't know much about this new product line of Steinway. Is this brand a good one? How is its quality and resale value comparing to Yamaha and Kawai? Thanks.
Posted By: fourinone

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:41 AM

Let me write some details about this upright Essex piano.

EUP-123FL
Empire Studio

finishes:
SATIN: sapele mahogany

Height: 123 cm / 48.5"
Width: 152 cm / 59.75"
Depth: 67 cm / 26.5"

The picture is here:

http://www.steinway.com/essex/upright_pianos.shtml
Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:52 AM

Use this forum's Search function at the top right hand of the page.
Type in Essex. There's enough stuff there to keep you busy for days on end reading about all of the pros and cons.
Posted By: mike_klein5

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 01:04 PM

I went into a Steinway dealership and they were able to kind of compare the difference. Although Boston and Essex brands are well made pianos they are still no comparison to an actual Steinway. The purpose of creating the Boston and Essex brands were to allow buyers to purchase a more affordable piano that is still made with the qualities which Steinway has.

In order, Steinway of course would be the top brand. Boston would be middle ranked, and Essex is considered the lower rank (not that it is a bad piano at all but in terms of price and quality compared to the other two). I was informed that the Essex brand piano is more designed for jazz/blues playing. Boston is more classical (simply a cheaper version of the Steinway). All three are unique and beautiful pianos. If your pocket cannot afford a Steinway then I would recommend possibly moving towards a Boston if your son is more inclined to play classical/pieces in that area.

Jazz is usually a more advanced field of playing so I can say with most confidence, based on what most piano teachers teach (for newbies), it will likely be scales, short songs, and gradually he will move into classical pieces, etc... Either way, I would say that if you are going to spend the money on an Essex than paying the little bit more to get a Boston is a good idea.

Despite anything I write here anyways, try and get someone to play both the Boston and the Essex to compare the sounds. You will most definately notice a difference between the two. Which ever you feel sounds the nicest and most rich is the one you should pick.

Its hard to judge what the resale value will be in the future since prices change constantly. I can definately say with confidence that you should not have a problem selling if you keep the piano in perfect condition (polishing the cabinet and keeping the keys clean, regular tunings, etc...). I think a Boston would sell a bit easier then an Essex but that also depends on the buyer. I am not sure what it would be compared to Yamaha or Kawai but over all you should not have any problems selling if your son no longer wishes to play.
Posted By: eightyeight_keys

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 01:30 PM

I bought the Essex EUP123 and had the dealer take it back. My issue with this piano is that it had a strong tendency to sing sympathetic vibrations in the strings AFTER the dampers were seated on the strings. It sort or echoed after playing notes. I did not like this. The tone was very, very bright and loud.

However on a good note, the cabinet was excellent, the size of the piano is ideal as was the action. The touch was great and fast though expect regulation to be done, as some of my notes began "sticking" after 2 weeks. Also the bass response and tone was very good and deep.

Check it out carefully and note very carefully if the notes continue to ring after the pedal is up or after you release the keys. If it does this, then it is a problem. Otherwise, get a good tuning, voicing and regulation and I would say probably a reasonable buy.

But having said that, I would personally go for a Kawai K3, or K35 for just a bit more money and worth it. I personally prefer the tone of the Kawai pianos, as they are more "musical". The scale design (in most of them) is more rounded and even from low to high registers.

Boston is made by Kawai, so it is better than the Essex and of course it costs more. Even more than the Kawai. The two are still different pianos. You might like to consider the benefit of the Kawai Millenium 3 action and the slow fall keyboard cover. These features are not part of the Boston. The Mill 3 action on the Kawai feels so great to play in which they use ABS Carbon parts in the action -

Best of luck in your search.
Posted By: eightyeight_keys

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by fourinone
We are looking for a piano for my son who just started learning piano and saw this Essex brand new piano at a Steinway shop. It is a more cherrish red color(forgot the name). The model No. is EUP123, the original price was $6800, now they marked it down to $4909 plus tax and shipping $249, I am wondering if it is a really good deal? We don't know much about this new product line of Steinway. Is this brand a good one? How is its quality and resale value comparing to Yamaha and Kawai? Thanks.
$5,000.00 USD is too expensive! Mine cost much less than that. (after the conversion of course)
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 01:35 PM

The Essex is a fine piano designed by Steinway and manufactured overseas in China and Korea along with most of its similarly priced competitors. It has a lovely sound, very dynamic touch and is built with quality materials. Steinway spent years developing and scaling the Essex line using 150 years of proprietary design experience and knowledge. I think one can hear and feel this difference, not to mention the cabinets of the pianos are absolutely beautiful. I love the case you have chosen as well. Straight clean lines with tasteful trim. Remember, a piano is meant to be seen as well as heard.

Their are many who look down upon the Essex for various reasons here at PW. Whether they have an agenda against Steinway or a true preference for its competitors is up to you to decide, but it would certainly be a worthy choice and give you and your family wonderful service for many years to come.

As far as the price is concerned; you are, in this market, in a position of power. It's a fair price for sure but.. the delivery fee and maybe a little less off would not be unreasonable.


Posted By: mike_klein5

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by piano_mike

Boston is made by Kawai, so it is better than the Essex and of course it costs more.


I believe there was a typo there. Boston is actually made by Steinway & Sons. The following website explains the details on the Boston:

Boston Pianos

You can also read more about the Essex by clicking on the link on the left side as well.
Posted By: JF

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 04:34 PM

No, I do not believe it was a typo. Boston is marketed and sold by Steinway, but actually manufactured in Japan by Kawai.

As for the Essex line, I am not a piano dealer, just a normal guy who likes pianos. I think that the Essex pianos sound OK. They lack sustain, especially in the treble. They are nice for a Chinese-made piano, but by in large, they do not compare favorably with nicer uprights. I do think they are a good piano for the money, however.

I do not know if your price is a good one. Consider looking at the Larry Fine 2008-09 supplement to see what his list price for the piano is, and try to bargain down from there.

In your price range, I personally would be more comfortable with a Japanese-made Kawai, K-series.

JF
______________________

Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 04:48 PM

JF,
The Boston has Steinway approved material a Steinway design and is marketed and backed by Steinway. Kawai is contracted to build the piano. It is a little more in-depth than just saying Kawai builds the Boston. OEM (original equipment manufacturing) is very common amongst companies today including Hailun and Brodmann and Essex and Boston to name a few.

A comparison that I make frequently is the iPod. Apple does not manufacture iPods, Samsung does in China. Would you consider the iPod anything other than an apple product? of course not. It is the same basic relationships between many piano makes and the people who manufacture them.

You are on the right track but I think a little bit more clarity was appropriate.

BTW, thank you for your very honest opinion of the Essex make. I am gland you had a chance to play one.
Posted By: JF

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:01 PM

Jonathan,

Very well, I understand what you are saying. And I will say that I like Boston pianos very much. They are a far superior instrument to the Essex, and that is readily discernible in any Steinway showroom.

I played at least 10 Essex pianos during my piano search, as they were within my price range, but never found one that had the qualities I was looking for. Again, overall, a nice piano for the money....

JF
Posted By: Robert 45

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:03 PM

Dear mike_klein5,
Boston pianos are definitely made in the Kawai factory in Japan. They are "Steinway designed" which Steinway and Sons promotes in their marketing for Boston but produced alongside the Kawai products.

Kind regards,

Robert.
Posted By: pianoloverus

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:03 PM

Since signatures don't seem to be functioning yet(?), why don't dealers, especially the ones only here for a few months, say they are dealers and what brands they carry in their posts?

Otherwise a reader might assume the post was completely unbiased?
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:04 PM

JF,
It's true, their is no comparison between the Boston and Essex. But their better not be, they are twice the money eek

Anyway, good talkin with you and I trust your enjoying your massive 6'7 kimball! What a beast of a piano thumb
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Since signatures don't seem to be functioning yet(?)


Signatures are working, at least for me.. confused
Posted By: Horowitzian

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:17 PM

Pianoloverus, there is an option to either view or not view user's signatures in "My Stuff" under "Preferences". You may have this turned off. I know I have a sig, and Jonathan definitely has the proper sig. smile
Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
JF,
It's true, their is no comparison between the Boston and Essex. But their better not be, they are twice the money eek

Anyway, good talkin with you and I trust your enjoying your massive 6'7 kimball! What a beast of a piano thumb


Hi Jonathan,

Question. What is the length of time of Boston and Essex warranties, and are the warranties full warranties or limited warranties?
I know that Steinway's warranty is 5 years, but is it a full warranty, or a limited warranty?

Thanks Jonathan.

Regards,

Bear
Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 06:11 PM

I am surprised that Steinway only gives a five year warranty on its pianos--aren't many of the other high level brands at a 10 or 12 year warranty?
Posted By: pianoloverus

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 06:23 PM

d
Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Since signatures don't seem to be functioning yet(?)


Signatures are working, at least for me.. confused


My apologies. I had the signature option turned off.
Posted By: fourinone

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 06:34 PM

Thank you all for your replies!!

It seems that Kawai is still a better choice for us. Unfortunately the Kawai dealer and Yamaha dealer are all out of business in our area. So there is no way that we can get a new Kawai and Yamaha right now. We have been watching at Craigslist for good used pianos, but no luck yet. My son is still using a keyboard, I really wish to get him a real piano to practise on as soon as possible. If we still can't find a good one within a month, maybe we will have to go for the Essex. Steinway and Boston are both out of our budget range frown
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 06:41 PM

Boston 118s could be had for maybe a little over 5k.

That is a great piano. It is a true performance studio. Just a thought.

Good luck Fourinone.
Posted By: SCCDoug

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
JF,
The Boston has Steinway approved material a Steinway design and is marketed and backed by Steinway. Kawai is contracted to build the piano. It is a little more in-depth than just saying Kawai builds the Boston. OEM (original equipment manufacturing) is very common amongst companies today including Hailun and Brodmann and Essex and Boston to name a few.

A comparison that I make frequently is the iPod. Apple does not manufacture iPods, Samsung does in China. Would you consider the iPod anything other than an apple product? of course not. It is the same basic relationships between many piano makes and the people who manufacture them.

You are on the right track but I think a little bit more clarity was appropriate.

BTW, thank you for your very honest opinion of the Essex make. I am gland you had a chance to play one.


I think the iPod comparison is at best disingenuous. The relationship between Kawai and Steinway is considerably different than that between the engineers at Cupertino and the myriad of different outsourced manufacturing facilities that make Apple products. Kawai themselves describe the relationship as 'joining forces'. The manufacturing processes are about as far apart as you could imagine between an inexpensive electronic device and an expensive piano. It is hard to imagine the Boston design surviving intact the switch to a new manufacturer. Even though they arguably compete with each other, Kawai benefited from the deal with Steinway because it allowed them to make use of excess productive capacity. I have no idea of the nature of the contract that binds Kawai and Steinway, but I would venture to say that if in time Kawai does not see value in their relationship with Steinway - they would terminate it - and vice versa for Steinway. All of which is to say, the relationship between the two companies is much more intimate than your iPod comparison would suggest.

Aside from all that, many people like Boston pianos and prefer them to Kawai. It is difficult to argue, however, that Kawai doesn't present a better value, given they are manufactured together and cost less money. If the touch and tone of the Boston justifies the difference, go for it - but you owe it to yourself to try a Kawai as well.
Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:20 PM

Fourinone: Can you go outside your area? If you would post where you are, then others on this forum could make recommendations. If the dealers in your area are out of business, it seems likely that dealers in other areas would be willing to work with you.
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:35 PM

It isn't a perfect comparison by any means but it does make the point that Kawai builds what Steinway wants them too because ultimately Kawai works for Steinway to manufacture the piano.

It is true some materials are very similar and even identical; this brings down the cost of the materials for both manufacturers through greater buying power.

The action and scaling is where the main differences lie. Creating a piano scale is a difficult undertaking. Steinway has been doing this for over 155 years. 155 years of proprietary scale designing knowledge went into the Boston.

I am not here to say one is better than the other =) A Boston is a Boston, a Kawai is a Kawai; they play and sound very, very different.

Also the Boston and RX Kawai are, for all intense and purposes, the same retail price, or more importantly the same wholesale cost.

I admit it can be a difficult stance to communicate but these are the objections we face. I think you can hear and feel the difference and we have had good success with the Boston piano.
Posted By: BruceD

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by mike_klein5
[...] Although Boston and Essex brands are well made pianos they are still no comparison to an actual Steinway. The purpose of creating the Boston and Essex brands were to allow buyers to purchase a more affordable piano that is still made with the qualities which Steinway has.

[...]


This reads like a total contradiction. Boston and Essex can't compare to Steinways yet they have the qualities of Steinways. Either they can or they can't, or they are or they aren't!

Regards,
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:51 PM

Bruce,
Perhaps "Essence that a Steinway has" is the appropriate response that Mike was looking for.
Posted By: JF

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:54 PM

One time a Kawai salesman told me that Steinway wanted to get the Millennium 3 action, the ABS component parts, and some of the RX manufacturing technology for Boston, but that Kawai wouldn't budge. Instead, Kawai gave Steinway the manufacturing technology for its old KG grands, and kept the GS and RX technology for itself.

Any truth to this I wonder?

JF
Posted By: JF

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 07:56 PM

Jonathan,

Yes, the 6'7" Kimball is large, but bigger seems to be better in my experience. The tone is really quite sweet, not like a booming Baldwin, but really nice and refined. I like it quite a lot.

JF
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 08:12 PM

Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 08:14 PM

Bigger is most definitely better =) and It was meant as a sincere compliment.
Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.


Jonathan,

My second request now. Why not answer my questions?

Hi Jonathan,

Question. What is the length of time of Boston and Essex warranties, and are the warranties full warranties or limited warranties?
I know that Steinway's warranty is 5 years, but is it a full warranty, or a limited warranty?

Thanks Jonathan.

Regards,

Bear

Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by fourinone
Thank you all for your replies!!

It seems that Kawai is still a better choice for us. Unfortunately the Kawai dealer and Yamaha dealer are all out of business in our area. So there is no way that we can get a new Kawai and Yamaha right now. We have been watching at Craigslist for good used pianos, but no luck yet. My son is still using a keyboard, I really wish to get him a real piano to practise on as soon as possible. If we still can't find a good one within a month, maybe we will have to go for the Essex. Steinway and Boston are both out of our budget range frown


Call Kawai 800 421 2177 and ask for the nearest dealer now closest to you.
Or click on www.kawaius.com
Enter the Dealer search area
Type in your Zip code

Cordially,

Bear
Posted By: Bob Snyder

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/24/09 11:47 PM

Boston and Essex pianos have 10 year warranties - they are limited to the original owner.

The Steinway warranty is 5 years - again, limited to the original owner.

Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bob Snyder
Boston and Essex pianos have 10 year warranties - they are limited to the original owner.

The Steinway warranty is 5 years - again, limited to the original owner.



Hi Bob,

Thank you very much for your answers to my questions.

Respectfully,

Barry
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 01:14 AM

I didn't answer your question because I didn't see it.

Originally Posted by Bear 1
Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.


Jonathan,

My second request now. Why not answer my questions?

Hi Jonathan,

Question. What is the length of time of Boston and Essex warranties, and are the warranties full warranties or limited warranties?
I know that Steinway's warranty is 5 years, but is it a full warranty, or a limited warranty?

Thanks Jonathan.

Regards,

Bear



..umm wow.. I didn't see your post Bear.
Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 02:15 AM

Thanks Jonathan,

No problem. smile

I don't see some of the posts either. eek

Cordially,

Bear
Posted By: Carey

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 05:45 AM

Per Fourinone: "If we still can't find a good one within a month, maybe we will have to go for the Essex. Steinway and Boston are both out of our budget range"

Dear Fourinone - Do not - I repeat DO NOT - limit yourself to the Essex because that is all you can afford. You can do better. Just be patient and keep looking - even if you have to take a little trip to another city to find something. It will be worth it in the long run.
Posted By: AJB

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 08:45 AM

Bear - you have spent 44 years in the industry and you expect us to believe that you didn't know what the Steinway warranties are for its various lines? I thought you were a professional!

This is the old lawyers ruse of never asking a question you don't know the answer to.

Of more interest would be what the incidence of warranty claims is comparing say Kawai with Boston (as they are made in the same factory).

Most piano dealers I have spoken to about warranties suggest that the length of warranty is of minimal importance as the warranty only comes into effect for major failures (something beyond the ability of a roving tech to fix on site) and the vast majority of significant failures are evident very soon after the piano was manufactured.

If one is buying from a quality manufacture, warranty comparisons are a trivial component of the buying decision and not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.

Posted By: FogVilleLad

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 09:10 AM

Diaphragmatic posted,
Quote
155 years of proprietary scale designing knowledge went into the Boston.
We've been thru several times, most recently with PianoMadam.

Originally posted by Rich Galassini:
"From "The Steinway Saga", which quotes Bruce Stevens, Pres. of S&S when the Boston pianos came out:

"When queried on the identities of the designers [of the Boston piano] Bruce Stevens stated that they were the engineers in Astoria; that none of them had ever designed a piano before was candidly admitted. They had, however, taken a one day scale design seminar with an outside consultant and were adept at the use of computers."

I think I saw a post on the PTG archives by PW's KawaiDon to the effect that there was give and take between Steinway and Kawai during the preproduction phase. Did Steinway engineers send final drawings to Kawai? KawaiDon said on PW that they did. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt re being able to use CAD software on their computers. But to say that Bostons were designed by people whose experience was limited to taking a one-day seminar from an outside consultant is to remove any notion of creativity from the meaning of "to design."

Better to say that Boston belongs to the Steinway family of pianos - which it does.


Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by AJB
Bear - you have spent 44 years in the industry and you expect us to believe that you didn't know what the Steinway warranties are for its various lines? I thought you were a professional!

This is the old lawyers ruse of never asking a question you don't know the answer to.

Of more interest would be what the incidence of warranty claims is comparing say Kawai with Boston (as they are made in the same factory).

Most piano dealers I have spoken to about warranties suggest that the length of warranty is of minimal importance as the warranty only comes into effect for major failures (something beyond the ability of a roving tech to fix on site) and the vast majority of significant failures are evident very soon after the piano was manufactured.

If one is buying from a quality manufacture, warranty comparisons are a trivial component of the buying decision and not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.



AJB,

Although my questions weren't addressed to you, thank you for your opinionated post.

I don't think that I need to defend my 44 year professional industry career to you or anyone else.

It's interesting, at least to me, that Kawai has a fully transferable full warranty while Boston only offers a nontransferable limited warranty.
{Steinway and Essex too}

If you don't think that a full warranty, in the USA, protects the consumer and subsequent owners of a piano {or for that matter all other consumer products} better than a limited warranty, then you possibly aren't aware of the USA's Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (MMWA) Full vs. Limited Warranty

According to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (MMWA), all warranties associated with consumer goods selling for greater than $10 are either designated as "full" or "limited" warranties.

These titles are meant to quickly inform consumers about the noteworthy terms and conditions of a warranty without having to read the fine print.
A full warranty meets the MMWA's guidelines for comprehensive warranty coverage. In the same way, a limited warranty warns consumers that the coverage does not meet one or more of the MMWA's criteria, and the coverage does not encompass all of what a full warranty does.
It is easy to determine whether you have full or limited coverage. Using the following checklist, if all five of these statements concur with the terms of your warranty, it is a full warranty:

The length of implied warranties is unlimited.
The warranty service is available to any owner of the product for the extent of the warranty; the warranty should not be exclusively offered to buyers who purchased the item shortly after it hit the market.
The warranty service is provided at no cost. This includes expenses associated with product returns, removal, and reinstallation if necessary.
The consumer is given the option of product replacement or a full refund if the product is unable to be repaired after numerous attempts.
The consumer is not asked to perform any task as a stipulation for receiving service aside from putting in for a service request. There are some exceptions to this rule, but the manufacturer must be able to give a good reason why anything beyond this is a necessity.
If any of these statements are false, you have a limited warranty.
---------

Now, I don't think that most consumers read the manufacturer's and/or the distributers written warranties before they buy a piano. In my opinion, the consumers should read the fine print and completely understand their rights regarding any warranty issues that could possibly occur.
Some manufacturer's warranties require the consumer to pay for transporting the piano to and back from where the manufacturer has decided the repairs are to be done. There is so much fine print on many manufacturer's warranties, that indeed it does take a lawyer to fully understand what the consumer's rights really are.
If a consumer asks "What's the warranty on this piano?" The salesperson will most likely say "Oh don't worry, parts and labor are covered for 10 years against any defects." ....

[/b]
As an example in some States in the USA, a consumer with a full warranty, could get their money back anytime the product can not be properly repaired within the length of time the product is covered by it's warranty. {Lemon Law}

Also a fully transferrable warranty generally will make it easier for an owner to resell the piano to someone else by transferring the balance of the full warranty to any and all subsequent owners.

I never said that a warranty should swing the buying decision and I agree it's not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.

However, Full warranties do protect the consumer, while limited warranties protect the manufacturer. Period.

Now, if forum readers, nice folks, intellectuals, lurkers, sock puppets, trolls, and prospective piano buyers don't give a hoot about the type of warranties out there in "Pianoland" ... So be it.

My apologies for such a long winded post.

Regards,

Bear
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 02:06 PM

Looks like you were totally correct AJB. Bear had one agenda when asking me that question over and over; take that answer and use at as means to give a sales pitch on how important the warranties are and how much BETTER the Kawai was compared to the asked company Steinway, Boston & Essex. He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was. Its ok though, I suppose these are the tactics used and I should have expected it.

Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Looks like you were totally correct AJB. Bear had one agenda when asking me that question over and over; take that answer and use at as means to give a sales pitch on how important the warranties are and how much BETTER the Kawai was compared to the asked company Steinway, Boston & Essex. He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was. Its ok though, I suppose these are the tactics used and I should have expected it.
----------
Hi Jonathan,

Wow, you certainly are a feisty guy today. smile

I don't really want to get into flaming, and tinkling contests. It ain't worth it in the long run.

I'll try to paraphrase my postings as best as I can.
Us old guys sometimes have a difficult time remembering the exact words we've said.

I couldn't find, on Steinway's website, what Boston and Essex warranties were in terms of both length of time and whether they are limited or full warranties. The site said something to the effect that the warranties vary from country to country and to ask your local Steinway dealer what the warranty is. I did say that I knew that Steinway pianos have a 5 year warranty but I didn't know if it was limited or full.
You seem to think you're a mind reader when you say, Quote "He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was." smile

Jonathan, please remember that manufacturers can and do change their warranty policies from time to time. I've been retired for over 4 years and I've not had much of a reason to keep up with every manufacturer's changes, if any.

I asked you the questions over and over {twice} because no one associated with Steinway or you yourself would answer the questions. To me they seemed to be reasonable questions, and were kindly answered by Bob Snyder, a highly respected Rep from the Steinway factory. After Bob's post, you posted to me "Sorry I didn't see your posts"
I answered back to you "That's okay, I don't see some of the posts either."

In trying to answer AJB's post I went very deep in what the two different type of warranties implied, according to the US Government, for US citizens.
I didn't think that was much of a sales pitch for Kawai. but a factual quote from the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

Kawai isn't the only piano manufacturer that gives their owners a full warranty. Do a little searching and I think that you'll find that Young Chang, Charles Walters, and Hailun among others have full warranties. One of the companies has a 15 year full warranty, another has a 12 year full warranty, some of them state that they have a lifetime warranty {what ever that means} and others have various full warranties.
Gosh, Kawai only has a 10 year full warranty, so if a consumer is shopping warranties for their main reason in making their decision to buy, they're not much of a savvy buyer in my opinion.

I said that a full warranty protects the owner while a limited warranty protects the manufacturer. That is a fact.

You are 100% correct that I think since Kawai and Boston are both made side by side, on the same conveyor belt, in the same factories, using many identical parts, Kawai's full warranty is better than Boston's limited warranty. Now I don't think that's a sales pitch, but it is my opinion, others are certainly welcome to disagree. smile

If you've read some of my many other posts, you'll see that I have stated repeatedly to consumers, "Buy the piano that you like the most regardless of brand name or model." I sincerely mean that. {Even if it's an Essex} laugh

Anyway, Jonathan I hope you have a very happy and prosperous day, and I think we can be friends that can agree to disagree.
It's up to you.

Regards to your Dad and Duane.

Sincerely,

Bear

Posted By: RayRoland

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 05:23 PM

Thank-you Bear for your detailed explanation. Kudos to Kawai for building an excellent quality piano and backing the instruments as well as they do.
As for your "tactics"; I find it incredibly hypocritical for the Steinway guys to mouth off in the previous posts. I am quite familiar with the Steinway school of hard-selling, and I find their "tactics" to be mis-leading at the very least.
I started in this business 52 years (ouch) ago when I was 6, and have been involved in all aspects of the music business, and taught new sales guys and gals how to be effective. Know your product, represent it honestly, qualify the customers needs and desires and cut the B.S. Seems from your posts, you follow these basic concepts. The guys that didn't follow these basic rules had a very short life in the business. I think I will shoot the next so-called sales professional who tries to use the "Ben Franklin" balance sheet or similar old-school B.S. high-pressure tactics.
I enjoy and appreciate your posts and insights, keep them coming.
Posted By: Bear 1

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 06:01 PM

Hi Ray,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I appreciate it. smile

I wish continued success for you and your business.
In my opinion, you're doing it the right way.

Warm regards,

Bear
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by RayRoland
Thank-you Bear for your detailed explanation. Kudos to Kawai for building an excellent quality piano and backing the instruments as well as they do.
As for your "tactics"; I find it incredibly hypocritical for the Steinway guys to mouth off in the previous posts. I am quite familiar with the Steinway school of hard-selling, and I find their "tactics" to be mis-leading at the very least.


Mouth off? If you consider my factual post calling out Bear's set-up "mouthing-off" then I guess thats what it was.

And Ray, you know nothing about the way we do business and obviously nothing of the thousands of very happy customers we have had the privilege to serve over the past 20 years. Steinway's approach is anything but the "school of hard-selling" you describe.

Imagine this; most Steinway dealers actually sell the piano for what they are listed for, what an amazing concept! Our prices are not based on the customers ability to negotiate. Thats far from the hard-selling concepts you claim.






Posted By: choleric

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 07:07 PM

Yikes! Nothing like a little cat-fight. I have to side with Diaphragmatic, though, on this one. To focus more on warranty, supposed sales tactics, and who was 100% responsible for making the Boston, than on the quality of the piano is a little transparent.
Posted By: AJB

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 07:12 PM

Bear - you are being disingenuous. You have spent 44 years in the industry and my suggestion was that such a professional would know most things there are to know about the major competition, including the warranty polices. This is especially so since you represented Kawai and Steinway contract with Kawai to make the Boston line.

My post was quite clearly tongue in cheek with respect to your professional standing. I trained as a lawyer - hence my remark about the common lawyerly tactic of tending to ask questions to which we already know the answer.

Kind regards

Adrian


Posted By: Plowboy

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 08:53 PM

Boy, oh boy, nothing gets this place as worked up as a post mentioning Boston or Essex. I still don't understand it, but enjoy the fireworks nonetheless!

Any company that has its rivals so discombobulated must be doing something right, whatever that may be.

Bear1, that's not meant as a shot at you, BTW, you seem like a pretty fair-minded guy. Just a general observation. I admire the willpower of Bob Snyder who never lets himself get dragged into these things, which speaks well of Steinway IMHO.

Posted By: fingers

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 10:21 PM

RayRoland,

"Mouth off"

You are out of line and ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Very ashamed!

fingers
Posted By: Nick Mauel

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/25/09 10:51 PM

This thread is more about Kawai and Boston so I would like to add an experience I had just yesterday:

First off, Bear has been kind enough to give detailed warranty information about Kawai vs. Boston. Why?

The Kawai transferable warranty is a HUGE selling feature and benefit to a customer in case they have to sell their piano!

How unfortunate that Steinway-Boston-Essex, Yamaha, and most others do not have even a transferable warranty whereas Kawai, Hailun, and Brodmann to name a few, do.

It seems funny that the most popular brand names don't think they need to offer a transferable warranty. Do they only wish to use the warranty for the marketing of their new pianos instead of to benefit the owner for the full warranty period whomever that might be? Would the resale of the slightly used piano with factory transferable warranty potentially hurt their sales of new units?

It's sometimes hard for customers to distinguish facts from marketing hype, and Bear is simply trying to point out the realities which are far more valuable to consider.

Yesterday I evaluated a 10 year old Boston 178 (5'10") for a potential trade in. I am more used to Kawai pianos having dealt in both new and used for many years.

I was rather surprised at the aging of the 10 year old Boston. No wonder the customer wants to trade it in for a Brodmann. Trouble is, it's not a good trade for me to accept.

On the other hand, the Kawai quality is usually clearly seen even after 10 years (as it should be), particularly in the stability of the action. Also, the evenness which Kawai pianos are voiced at the factory is usually always still noticeable. Most of the time you cannot tell it from a new piano.

Bear, maybe you're not welcome on Steinway threads but your informative posts really help!

In my opinion, the features and benefits of Kawai pianos far outweigh those of the Boston, and this has been especially evident after examining examples of each which had been used about the same amount.
Posted By: ftp

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 12:16 AM

I notice a number of comments about length of warranties. Would be interested in hearing how these warranties come into play as I forget reading about the invocation of them on PW threads (with the exception of problems in the first year).
Posted By: KeyDip

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 02:53 AM

I have to go with Nick and Bear on this. Just one quick observation with the Boston pianos. The actions on the Bostons are completely different from the Kawais. The Kawais have the carbon fiber technology action parts. They are extremely exact and are impervious to climate changes. Maybe that's one reason they sound and perform so well after many years. It continues to amaze me how many people in our industry are not familiar with the Millenium III Action, especially since its been on the market now for several years.

Another observation is that many prospective piano buyers (usually new buyers) are caught up only in branding or the "story". Meaning they made only an emotional purchase, not one based on facts. I can't tell you how many people over the last 30+ years bought a new piano and then asked my opinion as their technician whether or not they made a good choice.
Posted By: Diaphragmatic

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 03:26 AM

KeyDip,
I think they asked your opinion because they thought highly of it.
Posted By: schwammerl

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 05:46 AM

Quote
How unfortunate that Steinway-Boston-Essex, Yamaha, and most others do not have even a transferable warranty whereas Kawai, Hailun, and Brodmann to name a few, do.

It seems funny that the most popular brand names don't think they need to offer a transferable warranty. Do they only wish to use the warranty for the marketing of their new pianos instead of to benefit the owner for the full warranty period whomever that might be? Would the resale of the slightly used piano with factory transferable warranty potentially hurt their sales of new units?


This is strange and confusing information as the Brodmann warranty is very spesific adn strict:
Quote
This warranty service is available to the original owner only and when the piano is purchased from an authorized Brodmann Dealer


Brodmann warranty

So either this claim of Brodmann warranty being transferable is a mistake or they changed tactics recently in this respect. If the latter is the case Brodmann should urgently update this official document on their website.

schwammerl.
Posted By: Nick Mauel

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 12:13 PM

Schwammerl,

Brodmann announced to its dealers that all Brodmann pianos sold as of August 2008 would have transferable warranties.

Here is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from Brodmann which was sent out to dealers on 7/29/2008:

"Effective August 1, 2008 all Brodmann pianos sold will carry a 12 YEAR TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY! This will be one of the best warranties offered in our industry."

Thanks,

Nick
Posted By: schwammerl

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 03/26/09 03:06 PM

Nick,

Thank you.
Excellent warranty indeed; do not know of any better one!

As almost 8 months past since August 1st 2008, you could perhaps ask them to urgently update the website for this.

It is the first place customers go to look for that kind of information.

schwammerl.
Posted By: StatsMan

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. - 05/03/09 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic

And Ray, you know nothing about the way we do business and obviously nothing of the thousands of very happy customers we have had the privilege to serve over the past 20 years. Steinway's approach is anything but the "school of hard-selling" you describe.


I agree with Diaphragmatic. I am looking at Essex along with other brands. I have been to three Steinway dealers in three different counties and none of the sales people were hard-selling at all.
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