There is a very interesting and to me surprising article in today's Daily Telegraph about the 'Percentage of students likely to end up in graduate employment or further study 15 months after graduating'. Of the best 10 the Royal College of Music came second with 88.3% behind Imperial College London, the Arts Education Schools were sixth with 85.8% and the Royal Northern College of Music tenth with 80.9%. Not at all the kind of result that I would have expected. Of course it doesn't tell you what the employment actually is or indeed whether it is music or arts related as I believe a considerable proportion of graduates end up in unrelated occupations. But encouraging news for those musically inclined?

Strictly speaking, these are not students becoming employed, but employed OR entering into further study.

I suspect what it really means is that the graduating BA and BMus students wind up flipping into master's programs.

Interesting way of thinking about the measurements. In some instances, further education has real value. In others, it is just kicking the can a little further down the road.

Completely free music selection on many different devices.

I agree, and it is so nice to listen to YouTube pianists.Who cares if the musicians are learned or not! It is the music that counts.

It's kind of difficult to be a musician if you haven't learned anything.

Anybody think they might be replying to spam? Look at the forum signature

This is a rather directionless thread, or it has become that.I am not quite sure what spam is though.

Hi Rickster
Yes I know the kind of spam that is sold it tins.Not my kind of food.I remember my son going on a camping trip with group of boys.One of the tins of food he took with him was spam.When it comes to online spam yes I kind of know.The techno words tend to expand in thier meaning to include a number of aspects.Just the other day someone used the word "troll" in a non offensive manner.("the next time you troll the weather.ap...)
So yes the online world seems to be changing.By the the way I liked your poem)

I found it difficult to understand the use of the word spam in this context however? Perhaps dogsperson just likes to keep us on our toes?..true the world can be a dangerous place?
It seems to be reasonably safe on PW though.

"sounds like you know what both kinds of spam are" quote/Rickster

Sure, I just had a hope that "spam" like the word "troll" has become a little more benign, as it seemed a little out of place here. 😉 Perhaps I should be a little more vigilant?

By the way how do you like my hat? (as you can see I have changed my avatar again) That was OT, sorry could not resist.
Perhaps we should get back to education or over education?

Your poem is very good, but when I Google Rickster I cannot find you? I need to look on YouTube

If you look at the post signature of the spammer it is a link to web site not related to music or scores
The Post was just the opportunity to get a commercial link out there and on the Internet

And yes, PW gets spam. Beware of links, Especially from new members

"sounds like you know what both kinds of spam are" quote/Rickster

Sure, I just had a hope that "spam" like the word "troll" has become a little more benign, as it seemed a little out of place here. 😉 Perhaps I should be a little more vigilant?

By the way how do you like my hat? (as you can see I have changed my avatar again) That was OT, sorry could not resist.
Perhaps we should get back to education or over education?

Your poem is very good, but when I Google Rickster I cannot find you? I need to look on YouTube

Hi Rick,
I received your pm,which I enjoyed! Actually I had no idea 😅 there were many piano wold members on YouTube.My husband once suggested I do a youtube recoding! We would have to buy all the recording equipment? I am not really interested though.I enjoy playing just for those around me.
Actually the only other forum I belong to is Reddit, and I never post there.So not much of a life on the internet here.I shall send you a pm.

I've never understood why people are discrediting others for working in the art domain.

Hi Rick - I think you are inadvertently responding to a spammer.

Well, dang, just my luck. Thanks, Owen!

I guess I should have clicked on the "find new job" link in the thread, and then I would have been more informed about what I was responding to. But since I'm retired, and loving it, I'm not interested in a new job.

A bit OT, but my former Dean/boss at the technical college where I worked for 26 years has called me three times in the last couple of years, wanting me to come back to work, full-time or part-time. I said no all three times, and I hope he has gotten the message.

Now, on the other hand, if I got a call from an agent or recording company offering me a contract as a Piano Rockstar, I might be interested, depending on how much it paid... (Just kidding; wait, no I'm not kidding:-)

Rick

I would recommend that you never click on an unknown link, as it may be a way to install malware on your system

Hi Rick - I think you are inadvertently responding to a spammer.

The term "spam" for unsolicited email comes from a Monty Python skit.

I find it slightly amusing how orchestra webpages have "Donate" buttons everywhere, as if they are charities. They are, quite simply, people who want to get paid to do something they enjoy and find fulfilling.

A bit OT, but my former Dean/boss at the technical college where I worked for 26 years has called me three times in the last couple of years, wanting me to come back to work, full-time or part-time. I said no all three times, and I hope he has gotten the message.

To reply to the original post: schools in the US are notorious for inflating their grad employment figures. Even law schools.

There are few jobs anywhere in music these days.

Google my name, if you want to know who I am.

Symphony orchestras are non-profit businesses that cannot survive on revenue from ticket sales alone and therefore must rely on other revenue sources to break even - including individual contributions. They are no different than non-profit museums, opera and theater companies. If a community values these institutions they must support them through ticket sales as well as public (government) and private (individual, corporate) contributions.

if I were to ... suggest they donate money to me so I could sit around working on interesting mathematical ideas which have broader cultural value to society, I expect the reception would be quite frosty. I'm sure they would think it quite ridiculous that I expected them to just give me their money.

That's academia!

What's a non-profit business? You mean they don't have shareholders or investors to pay? They are still profitable for the staff who work at them who, like I said, want to get paid to do something they enjoy. I mean, they don't go around looking for funding and donations because they are selflessly concerned about the cultural contribution they make. They're acting in self-interest. If the public does not particularly want these services, because they prefer to listen to music on youtube while lying on their beds, or watch netflix instead of attending the theater, one would have to think carefully about what the reason is to subsidize them. Anyway, I'm not particularly against government funding of the arts. But I did want to highlight that people who expect donations and public subsidy would unlikely be keen to donate their own money to support someone else's favourite (or allegedly culturally significant) activity.

I think the overarching dynamic is that many arts groups are non-profit almost out of necessity, because they are sadly not profitable, or wouldn't be on their own.

And many musicians are hustling to scratch out a living. I don't know if things have changed in my hometown (I moved away a long time ago), but Augusta and Savannah Georgia, and Columbia South Carolina largely shared a symphony. They'd put together a show and the professional musicians would trek between the three cities to get the most bang for their buck (i.e. they were members of all "three" symphonies). They were augmented by a handful of competent locals. And these were fairly talented musicians with degrees from good schools. Most were also adjuncting at colleges in the area, often more than one.

Musicians want money so that they can have: Cars, houses, plane tickets, computers, lawn mowers, microwaves etc etc. Yet all of these things require people to study and do things that aren't necessarily that interesting or romantic. Hammering in nails in 35 degree sun, or drawing up the schematic for the electronics of a microwave, are not as romantic as being an admired travelling concert pianist, performing in concert halls in beautiful European cities. If they want to try and get paid to do something they find fulfilling, but the public doesn't particularly want from them, that's fine. I'm just saying I don't think people trying to do something they enjoy constitute a charitable cause.

Perhaps he ended up teaching Drama in a university or he perhaps now reads the weather report on the radio.Sonnepica I enjoy recordings but they are really reproductions of music, so standardized.After a number of times of listening to Beethoven's concerto no3 by a DVD I grew to dislike the piece.
It took listening to a brilliant performance to make me like the piece again.(however I never listen to that recording anymore, even though it was a great pianist playing it) Listening to recordings are enjoyable and we can learn from them.
On the whole though the magic is not really there.We only think it is for a while only.

That's fine. But presumably the fact that orchestras struggle to attract people, and audiences are aging, suggests that most people don't think it's worth it?

my oldest son is a guitar player and a good one, and I mean really good (but I may be biased a little smile )

The symphony musicians I was referring to were in a relatively small town. Augusta and Savannah aren't too big. Columbia, SC is slightly bigger. The 3 form a triangle of about an hour drive between any of them. I thought it was pretty clever to sort of join forces, and they would brand themselves with whichever city they were performing in: Augusta/Columbia/Savannah Symphony Orchestra!


I've seen some of your son's videos, and I'd agree that he's an excellent guitarist.

I have no idea what has inspired this whole thread? It just seems so very negative.

No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once. There are far more people who want to be actors than society is willing to pay for, hence un and under employment.

No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once.

No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once. There are far more people who want to be actors than society is willing to pay for, hence un and under employment.

You should definitely use this statement in your application to work for the the RAPM. Should play well.

On the subject of music versus math, every year I go through the New York Times list of people who died the previous year, to see how many I had tuned for. This year there were only two, one musician and one mathematician.

I get requests to donate to Mathematics at Berkeley, as it was one of my majors, so indeed, people do ask to donate to mathematicians.

I have also known people who take a variety of odd, low-paying jobs so they can play around with mathematics. I also know people who have developed skills and talents in music that have enabled them to get high-paying jobs in other fields, in addition to playing music. And then there are people like myself, who do not have a lot of musical talent, but still manage to be fairly successful in music. Not all the career opportunities in music involve playing music.

I get requests to donate to Mathematics at Berkeley, as it was one of my majors, so indeed, people do ask to donate to mathematicians.

The Sydney orchestra does not ask for you to donate to just anyone who wants to spend time playing music. You should be able to recognize that false equivalence.

I did not mean that mathematicians or academic departments do not ask for donations. What I meant was, if I were to ask the Sydney orchestra to donate to me so I could spend my time working on mathematics, I'm sure they would decline. Yet, very keen for me to donate to them to support their activities.

May I ask if there are any organizations to which you donate and that you consider ‘worthy’ of your financial support? I have to say I’m rather surprised to see this point of view on a forum where presumably most participants are music enthusiasts.

What I am doing is making a distinction between businesses and charities. They are not helping blind children in Africa. They are trying to get paid to do something they enjoy. If you value the performances they put on you can support them by being a paying attendee of their concerts. If people don't really want to attend their concerts I don't see the point of supporting them through donations.

I would not be asking them to donate so Jim the homeless guy can try to do some mathematics. I have significant qualifications.

I suspect that without financial support, institutions like the Metropolitan Opera, the Metropolitan Museum of art, and other such high caliber fine arts venues, would not be able to operate as they currently do. You may be quite happy living in a world where these institutions do not exist. But I think the downstream repercussions for all of us (including those who primarily listen to classical music from recordings) would be quite significant. I, for one, like a world where these kinds of institutions (as well as smaller, more local institutions like the Augusta Symphony Orchestra that Retsacnal mentioned) exist (and ideally, thrive). To each their own. I hope you are sending lots of money to help blind children in Africa, as well as other charitable endeavors.

What I am doing is making a distinction between businesses and charities. They are not helping blind children in Africa. They are trying to get paid to do something they enjoy. If you value the performances they put on you can support them by being a paying attendee of their concerts. If people don't really want to attend their concerts I don't see the point of supporting them through donations.

If you think the Sydney orchestra asks you to donate so Jim the homeless guy can try to do some music, I suspect that you overestimate your qualifications.

The point of supporting through donations:
Even with a full audience, many symphonies could not survive without donations— unless you want to raise the ticket price to a point where it would only be affordable to the elite.

You are missing something: musicians don’t only get paid for what they enjoy doing, but they have many years of professional training before they ever play on a concert stage.

What I am doing is making a distinction between businesses and charities. They are not helping blind children in Africa. They are trying to get paid to do something they enjoy. If you value the performances they put on you can support them by being a paying attendee of their concerts. If people don't really want to attend their concerts I don't see the point of supporting them through donations.

Well if classical music performances are not economically viable without donations, doesn't that pretty much answer the OPs original question about career prospects in music?

No, not really.

Well, if a business costs more money to run that it brings in, it's unlike to be able to provide a lot of employment opportunities. Unless the compensating donations are extremely generous and numerous.

True. However, in order to remain relevant and survive in the 21st century, orchestras everywhere are rethinking their business models, mission, programming and audience development efforts. The pandemic has only made these efforts more challenging. Many interesting articles can be found on the internet regarding these initiatives.

Plus there's no need for me to donate to people with such excellent employment opportunities, surely?

Well that settles it then. With all this new rethinkingness and developtating of the audience, there will be no end of jobs for classical musicians. Agreed! Good then. I'm glad we were able to figure this one out and reach consensus.

Just because Sonepica plays classical music at home does not mean that he is supportive of live musical performances. In fact, he wrote that he is content with recordings. These may not be his real opinions, but until he personally confirms that he was indeed just interested in the discussion and the position he wrote was not his actual one, I will believe that what he wrote were his true opinion.

I also believe it is his true opinion. He apparently views orchestras and other non profit arts organizations as "people who want to get paid to do something they enjoy and find fulfilling." This belief obviously ignores the services these organizations provide to their communities as well as their impact on a community's overall quality of life and economy.

And for the record.......

From Wikipedia: "A nonprofit organization ..... is a legal entity organized and operated for a collective, public or social benefit, in contrast with an entity that operates as a business aiming to generate a profit for its owners. A nonprofit is subject to the non-distribution constraint: any revenues that exceed expenses must be committed to the organization's purpose, not taken by private parties." ...."The key aspects of nonprofits are accountability, trustworthiness, honesty, and openness to every person who has invested time, money, and faith into the organization. Nonprofit organizations are accountable to the donors, founders, volunteers, program recipients, and the public community."

Enough said.

Despite musicians being motivated by self-interest in my opinion, there *could* be an argument to be made for governments, private institutions and/or private citizens to support orchestras with donations because of cultural and social benefits. There I said it.

However, I don't personally attend live concerts and just listen at home. Also, I strongly suspect that orchestras would be disinterested in supporting an allegedly culturally significant endeavor of my own. As I explained earlier.

Oh come on Carey. People study music and try to get jobs at orchestras because they think it is something they will enjoy far more than an office job. Not because they want to sacrifice their financial solvency for the cultural enrichment of others.

Also, I can't see how orchestral performances improve the quality of life or economics of *non-customers who don't actually attend their concerts*.

Yes yes yes, musicians have a profound impact on the community. Without them, the social fabric would simply fall apart. Good then.

There's a similar situation with school teachers. Teachers believe they ought to be paid a lot more money, because their job is hard, they have to deal with disobedient students and overbearing parents, or whatever. And because their job is so important and they have a profound impact on the lives of the next generation.

But people go into teaching because that's what they want to do, not out of self-sacrifice for the benefit of other people's children.

And you get paid what other people are willing to pay you, not what you think your contribution is worth.

Anyone undervaluing or overvaluing something pays their own price, by definition. So there is no need to worry about it.

Some piano students I had in the past didn't like the fact that I made them practice scales, made them practice slowly, made them curl their fingers, complained that their rhythm wasn't even etc etc and eventually decided to stop taking lessons with me. Presumably, they thought that piano lessons should be fun, and not focused on boring things like thumb curling and finger positions. It didn't matter that I had attained a very high level of technical mastery and therefore probably knew what I was talking about.

Now, I didn't get angry and insist that this was in fact the right way to teach and they were undervaluing me. I didn't insist that they must spend their money on my piano lessons because that was clearly what was best for their musical development. I just shrugged my shoulders and moved on.

Undoubtedly, these people remain extremely amateur musicians who can't play scales, can't play rhythmically evenly, and only play easy pieces poorly. That's the only kind of justice that there ever will be.

I don't know for sure, but I would think Symphony Orchestra musicians would have somewhat of a steady income, and a good one. But, again, I'm just speculating because I don't know any Orchestra musicians personally.

I did, however, work with a guy at the technical think Symphony Orchestra musicians would have somewhat of a steady income, and a good one. But, again, I'm just speculating because I don't know any Orchestra musicians personally.

I did, however, work with a guy at the technical college, who worked as a part-time police officer for the college, who was also a retired fireman/arson investigator with one of the large metro Atlanta counties. He was also a violinists/fiddle player, and a good one, and I mean really good.

He played in a bluegrass band, who got paid whenever they played a gig. Not sure how much the band was payed, but they were good enough they didn't have to play for free.

I said all that to say this... he also played the violin/fiddle as a recording musician for some of the many recording studios around the metro Atlanta area fairly regularly. He said he got paid $300 per session/recording, which was one song/piece. If he played two songs/pieces he got $600. Again, he was that good, and had a great personality to go along with it. I played my 5-string banjo with him and a few other musicians, who worked at the college, for some special events a few times. It was a pleasure to play with such a fine musician. Made me feel like a real musician!

And, while I'm here, and drinking my second cup of morning coffee:-), my oldest son is a guitar player and a good one, and I mean really good (but I may be biased a little ). He has his own HVAC company and has been very successful at it. He said one of his customers, who had heard him play the guitar with his blues band, asked him why he was working in HVAC and not in Nashville making big bucks as a guitar player. My son replied and said there were many guitar players in Nashville who were way better than him working in restaurants as waiters or working in construction waiting on their big break in the music/entertainment business.

So, yes, I'm sure one could earn a good living in the field of music if they work hard at it, stick with it and pursue the right opportunities, and, have a plan B, as Carey mentioned.

Wishing musicians everywhere all the best!

Rick

It depends on the orchestra—they exist at many levels. In the US, it’s a pyramid, with a handful of impossible-to-get jobs in high-paying orchestras at the top, and a broad base of part-time, low wage ones at the bottom.

As a former orchestral violinist, I’d say the vast majority of orchestra musicians do not make a full time salary. Most hustle around doing any available gigs like weddings while teaching privately or as a low-pay adjunct.

It depends on the orchestra—they exist at many levels. In the US, it’s a pyramid, with a handful of impossible-to-get jobs in high-paying orchestras at the top, and a broad base of part-time, low wage ones at the bottom.

As a former orchestral violinist, I’d say the vast majority of orchestra musicians do not make a full time salary. Most hustle around doing any available gigs like weddings while teaching privately or as a low-pay adjunct.