Spinet or Console? Looks close to the tipping point.

Looks pretty comparable to the piano I grew up playing. My Mom said it was a console. It was a fairly small piano that piano techs would call a spinet. I’ll call it a spinet.

That's a Kimball Whitney. The Whitney was always a spinet.

The true definition of whether or not a piano is a spinet or a console, IMHO, is by what kind of action is inside. I really cannot remember if Kimball made any whitney consoles, but I distinctly remember coming across some Kimball products that were tagged as "consolette".

That's right! You guessed it. The cabinets were made to be a little tiny bit taller than the standard 36" to 38" spinet size, but there was still a spinet action inside.

So, I say it is a spinet and... a spinet by any other name, still plays as badly.

My 2 cents,

Incidentally, it’s called out as a used piano to avoid here:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/advice-about-used-pianos/

Some of these spinets or consolets are really nice looking !
I have never seen one before moving here.

Spinet!

Neither. It is garbage. Whitneys were terrible pianos.

The Kimball Consolette had a spinet action, but they were somewhat better than Whitneys. The tolerances in Whitney manufacture were so poor that like the Le Petite grands, you could not count on them ever to play close to properly.

Yeah, it's a handsome little guy, isn't it?

Thanks, Rich. As usual, you hit the nail on the head. My real question is whether it has a drop action or not. Not really interested in the drop action.

Thanks. I've never actually touched a Whitney, and know their reputation, but have a sort of soft spot for the brand (Whitney is my middle name).

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Ironically, I actually am looking for a junker. I'm looking for an upright to experiment on. Lots of free or nearly free specimens out there, but people aren't responding lately, probably due to the ongoing pandemic. And the last time I tried to get moving estimates I got no response. So I figured something this sized I could drag home with just a little help, and drag out to the curb when I'm done with it. But, I don't want a drop action.

Correction my Mom’s piano measured 43 inches so indeed it was a console. Sorry Mom!

If only the above were also actually a console... sigh.

But it has an odd appeal, in a Charlie Brown Christmas Tree sort of way.

So, this looks like a proper console!

Question: how much DNA would this likely share with the ubiquitous Baldwin Hamilton upright?

Nice looking Baldwin console piano there, Ret!

As to DNA and the Baldwin (AKA) Hamilton uprights, I've read here on the forum that all Baldwin upright pianos are Hamiltons. But I don't see the word Hamilton anywhere on that console.

That said, the plate does bear a strong resemblance to the Baldwin/Hamilton 243 studio upright I owned for a while. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be a Baldwin without being a Hamilton.

No disrespect or offence meant, but I've noticed that even the experts here can be wrong on occasion.

Good luck!

Rick

I think it is an Acrosonic console. They were fairly decent.

Thanks, Rick. I don't really have a preference for one over the other (Baldwin or Hamilton). I mainly ask because I think I've seen the model everyone seems to like (243) badged as Baldwin, Hamilton, Baldwin Hamilton, Hamilton by Baldwin, etc, so you're probably right about that! And this one seems to be styled very similarly, but shorter. And, now that I look a little closer, the 243 always has a sturdier lower leg assembly (probably because students are pushing them all over the place). And, casework is just that. Probably a million different variations and styles. I do sort of like the plain look of this one, and perhaps that's why it resembles the 243 to me.

Thanks, BDB. That's an interesting observation. For some reason, I always equate Acrosonic with spinets. Maybe because there were a lot of them. I tend to forget that Baldwin made Acrosonic uprights too!

Regarding the quality, the lady who's trying to give it away says that her tuner told her that this one is a better quality piano than their other piano, but the other is in better condition--they're moving and want to give this one away. Tried to sell it. No takers. "Offered" it to the landord who says he'll charge her $300 for disposal if she leaves it.

I've already got cabin fever due to Covid-19, and school's out now, so I have even less to do. So I need a project!

Call me crazy...

• I've got a 5x8 trailer reserved for tomorrow at Uhaul.
• Once I get the trailer, I need to pick up some boards at Lowes to use with these because the boards are too long to fit into my Jeep. (their saw is "broken" and they are actually pretty low on 2x12s because of Covid-19)
• Then swing back by my house to mount the ramp top kit.
• Then head Sunbelt Tool Rentals to pick up a Piano Dolly.
• Then farther off to Maryland to see the piano.
• If I like it...
  • The husband is going to help me get it into the trailer.
  • A neighbor will help me get it into my house.
  • 2 steps at their end. 3 steps at mine.
• It's in the metro area, but we're both on extreme opposite sides, so I'm figuring between 3 and 4 hours road time. I'm doing all the above on the assumption that I'll bring it home, so I don't have to make the trip twice.

I was going to cut a 12' board into two 6' sections, but I'm wondering about just getting two 8' boards instead, to skip the cutting and lessen the angle a little bit more. 8' is the shortest 2x12.


Question: does anyone know how much two eight foot 2x12s will flex under the weight of a console?

Sounds like a good plan, Ret!

I think the two 8' 2X12s will be fine for a ramp. As for the weight, it shouldn't be any heavier than a washing machine, (300lbs?).

Hope all goes well! Enjoy the trip! Enjoy the new toy/project.

Rick

Mission accomplished!

The Good

As BDB suspected, it's an Acrosonic. While I was there the lady called her mom and asked. They bought it new in 1980, and grandma passed it on to her for the grandkids to use, and they now have a baby grand.

The action is smooth, keys level, hammer line straight. No sticky keys. No cracks. Etc. Has a surprisingly nice tone for such a little thing.

The Bad

Key dip seems a little shallow. There's some surface rust on the tuning pins (where I think the finish has been worn off by past tunings). No rust at the string coils, and the strings look great, no rust or corrosion.

It's been played in its lifetime, and there are string grooves in the hammers (about a third of the string diameter in the bass and tenor).

It has clearly been neglected since they got the newer piano. It was pretty filthy, relegated to a back room and full of dust and cobwebs (for now, it's in my garage). I vacuumed it out today and it cleaned up surprisingly well.

It's about a half step flat (and honkytonkish), so needs a pitch raise. I tuned the temperament tonight, and it seems to be holding fine. So far...

The Ugly

I always suggest people hire professional movers. Well, in this case, I wanted a cheap project, and part of keeping it cheap was to move it myself. I'm paying for it today. I ache all over.

I mangaged to get the 8' boards at Lowes, and mount the ramp hardware. Rickster was correct...they didn't flex a bit. But the inside stairs were closer to the door than I realized, and the ramp actually went out the door onto the porch! So the weight of the piano was still on them while the piano was on the porch. Because of that, we couldn't use them for the step down from the porch, so we just hoisted it down. And then again, carried it across about ten feet of grass, and lifted it up into the trailer. Fortunately, she had a neighbor there to help me. Also fortunately the piano dolly had nice big handles for lifting!

At home, I had to get it out myself! I'm also not great at backing a trailer, and decided to just unload on the street, rather than try to back the trailer into the driveway! And I could imagine the piano first jetting down the ramp, pulled by gravity, and then down the street, so I opted not to use the ramp. The "dual carriage piano dolly" has retractable wheels on each end, so I only dropped the rear wheels so that I could pick up the front and pull it to the edge and out of the trailer. When it was far enough, I lowered the front to the ground. Then I retracted the rear wheels, so it wouldn't run away when I set it down, and lowered the front wheels so that it would roll as I pushed the back out, and lowered it to the ground.

The street slopes one way. My driveway slopes another. I tugged it across the gutter, and then up the driveway, with the weight and gravity swinging the lower loose end around! My daughter's car was in the driveway, so just to be safe I lodged two of the wheels in the grass, so it wouldn't roll, and moved her car out to the street.

Even though I "know" the center of gravity is along the piano's back edge, I was surprised how quickly it would start to tip that way...

$50 ramp hardware
$25 two 8' 2x12s
$46 trailer rental
$16 piano dolly rental
$25 gas
------
162 total

That would've put a serious dent in a professional move. Especially if you add on a massage or chiropractor visit! Granted, the ramps are re-usable, and I did sort of want to experience this, but I don't see myself moving another piano any time soon.

Definitely hire pros.

Anyway, all in all, it's in surprisingly nice condition for a free piano.

Wow! Glad you didn’t hurt yourself or any of the objects involved!

So you’re going to work on learning how to tune?

P.S. what does the dreaded spinet action look like?

Hey Goooooooogggllllle....

Sounds like your plan worked out well, Ret! And, that muscle soreness will fade soon, hopefully. Pianos are heavy, even the little ones.

Now, you'll have some fun tinkering with the little fellow and get an education, of sorts, while working on it.

All the best!

Rick

Well best wishes Retsacnal on a "little brother" to you your Baldwin grand. You have been wanting
an upright for some time !
Perhaps take it easy for a while from all that lifting and carrying .
Enjoy !

ShiroKuro the piano is a console not a spinet. So taller than a spinet.

Yes I know, I am always so serious lately ,still it looks like a tough little piano to me.

The Hamilton name was only used for the studio - model 243. However, I do remember a Baldwin action model which showed - as I recall - three keys: an Acrosonic spinet, an Acrosonic console and the Hamilton. Actions were identical, although the keys were at different heights - the spinet being a drop action, of course. But all were full-sized - not "compressed". This isn't so for the lower-level (Howard?) spinets and consoles. They did have compressed actions and beveled (not notched) bridges. These were pretty terrible.

Yes, I know that the piano that he obtained is a console, which I presume he wants in order to learn how to tune, and he doesn't want to learn on the spinet action.

This discussion, however, got me to thinking about the spinet action, about which I've read numerous descriptions, but hadn't ever seen a photo of. Hence my question.

There are lots of pictures and diagrams of spinet piano actions available on the internet.

My old Kawai upright has been very out of tune.Sometimes I think would like to learn to tune on that
piano.,or perhaps just sell that piano as I no longer teach.
Anyway that's another story.

That is a nice looking little piano Retsacnal.

Indeed. Hence my quote in the original post:

So, the action...

Let me back up a little. I had exchanged a number of texts with the lady for about a week. They're moving in sort of a hardship situation, although I don't know all the details. I knew she needed to get rid of the piano and they can't pay to dispose of it (landlord had told them $300 if it's not out). Anyway, I went to the front door when I arrived, and she opened it and told me to just pull around to the back. I asked if I could see it first, and her facial expression struck me as nearly panic at the thought that I might not be taking it. She said ok and I said I'd walk around to the back, but on my way around the house I just decided that I'd be taking the piano regardless. I was there, had the trailer, dolly, ramps, etc. Worst case scenario was that I could just haul it straight to the dump. I don't know... sometimes things happen for a reason, and in the moment I just felt like I was meant to haul that piano out for them.

It's a good thing I had sort of mentally committed, because when she lifted the lid, and took the front cover off, I realized that it has a drop action. In that moment, I would have walked away, because I really don't want a drop action. I wouldn't have guessed it from the pictures. And it's 41 inches tall. From what I've been reading, apparently Baldwin thought a full-size action in a drop/indirect configuration is less of a compromise than a compressed but direct console action. Strangely, it's only slightly "dropped." The wires/stickers aren't even two inches long!

I've been doing some research, and the most concise description I've found is a PianoBuyer quote right here on PW:


I also found some pictures. It's the middle configuration in the action model pictured below.

Anyway, it's an "oversized spinet" with a full sized action and a sound board that's 17% bigger than most spinets. Given its inherent limitations, it's actually quite nice. Good build quality. Decent tone.

It's sort of the industry in a microcosm: a fairly high quality construction, and decent piano, but they could hardly give it away... sad.

Anyway, I've been round and round about it. Get rid of it, or keep it. I also know that if I start working on it that I'm liable to get attached.

Thanks, Lady Bird. It actually seems to be fairly high quality (for such a small piano).

Thanks. I was pretty achey yesterday, like I'd spent a lot of time at the gym!


Well, to split hairs a little, I learned to tune a long time ago. But I want to learn more about upright actions (I've never had an upright before).

Ret, you can still learn a lot with the Baldwin console, in spite of the fact it has a spinitish type of action. From the model shown in your pic, it looks to me that the action parts are very similar to each other, besides the fact that your Baldwin key stick "pulls" the whippin up and into battery instead of "pushing" it up from the bottom.

In my experiences "old piano" mining is a bit like the TV show Bearing Sea Gold on the History Channel... sometimes you strike the mother-load, sometimes you get a few flakes of gold, and sometimes you get nothing much for your efforts. Either way, it's all fun!

And, it sounds like you have a big heart and wanted the help the folks out more than you wanted to get a free piano. That says a lot about your character. But we knew that already.

I actually have some parts and pieces and wood panels that I've saved from various pianos I've owned over the years, but the pianos themselves had lived a long, useful life, but it was time for them to pass on. I have some pianos now that I will give a good home until it is their time. Just enjoy your time with the Baldwin, for how long that may be!

Good luck, and have fun with the Baldwin!

Rick

Retsacnal, so is the action on the piano you bought the middle one in your photo? (Well, I mean, it says that the action is the same. I guess it's the relationship between the key and the position of the action...)

Yes, it’s the middle configuration. I think the main trade off is that, in terms of a lever, the key is shorter. You can see in the picture that the balance rail is closer to the front rail.

Thanks for the encouragement, Rickster, and kind words.

I like your gold mining analogy!

That's super interesting though! You'll have to keep us posted on what you to/with the piano!

Ok, so here's an update...

I haven't had a chance to do much lately. But three things:

First, I didn't really check it out super thoroughly at the previous owner's place (since I had decided I was taking it regardless, and--more importantly--since I'd never moved a piano before, I was more concerned with logistics). Anyway, in my garage I was poking around on it and realized that E3 through G3 were so distinctly wonky honky tonky out of tune that my heart sank. I figured that there was a crack in the pinblock! E3 is the last bi-chord and the rest are tri-chords. Well, I grabbed my tuning hammer and brought each of those four notes' back into unison to see what would happen. I also banged on them quite a bit (test blows) ... and several times a day for the last few days, and they seem to be holding. It's been relatively humid lately, even raining a lot, so I wonder if it may just be the increased humidity that's holding them (if those pins are lose), but I figure worst case scenario is that CA glue should hold them too, and I don't think the block is cracked. The temperament I set previously is also holding, but I haven't otherwise tuned it.

Second, I had a bit of a scare. One thing I learned when I lived in Georgia (where cockroaches are a fact of life), never bring an antique (or anything second hand) into the house right away. So this also factored into my decision to leave it in the garage (in addition to the "it's just a[n oversized] spinet" thoughts that continue to torment me). Anyway, on about the forth day, my youngest said she woke up at 5am and was itchy from bug bites! Yikes... I was thinking bed bugs. By coincidence, she and her sister had ventured out to visit a doughnut truck a day or two before. So my hope--or at least preference--was that she'd been attacked by mosquitoes while waiting in the long line. I did a little reading and learned that bed bug bites tend to occur in linear patterns, and hers were random and wide spread. More importantly, it hasn't reoccured or flared up.

Last, I want to go ahead and move it into the house so I can spend more time with it (when time allows) and to let it acclimate to the house. I may do a first pass pitch raise while it's out there, but it's pretty humid, and lately pretty warm, in the garage. Anyway, it's three steps up from the garage into the house, so I can't just roll it in, even with my ramps/boards. So, I've bought four of these casters to build a dolly to move it on. I don't want to hassle with renting the piano dolly again. Might as well make one I can re-use if/when I want to.


Anyway, that's it for updates. I haven't really done much yet, but I do want to at least get it into the house.

The tenor area tends to go out of tune the most on pianos, relative to humidity swings. Also, the scaling tends to be pretty troublesome around the break from the wound strings to the first few plain wire notes on small pianos, and those will drive you a little batty as a tuner even if the pinblock is working well enough.

Retsacnal- I haven’t been keeping track of this thread. A Baldwin project piano. Very Cool! My first piano I bought for myself was a 1991 Baldwin console that my first piano tuner/tech called “my little Baldwin”. Somewhat discouraging but it served me well for 18 years. I’m glad you didn’t hurt yourself moving it other than sore muscles you didn’t even know you had. I look forward to watching your progress on learning how to service your Baldwin and everything involved in the action. Congratulations and best wishes!

Sounds great, Ret!

Going up and down steps, and in and out of doorways, the dolly does work better. Getting the piano on the dolly is the hardest part. But once on the dolly, you could probably manage it yourself.

As for unwanted critters in old pianos, yes, it can happen. I was given an old upright once that resided in a vacant farm house. The owners of the farmhouse were my late moms neighbors and asked my mom if might want the old piano. Anyway, my son helped me move it, load it and unload. When I got it home, in my detached piano shop, I removed some of the panels, and the fallboard and noticed some live moth larva under the key sticks embedded in the felt key punchings under the keys.

Unfortunately, that was one freebee that I decided to cannibalize the parts I wanted and discard the rest. Plus, it taught me a lesson to be more careful about taking free pianos, unless they actually have some usefulness to me.

Thing is, every freebee I've had was a learning experience in more ways than one, and the learning never stops.

Good luck with the Baldwin and have fun!

Rick

Sounds like you are doing fine.,I think that "bed bug thread" has made us all a little wary. I am glad the rash was nothing serious.
It sounds as though you have done your first small tuning !
I am interested to hear about your progress.
At that height your piano is a console.I once tried a Kawai console is was great !
Just be careful about not hurting your back moving that piano.

Interesting! It definitely wasn't in tune at the previous house, but the extreme swing in these notes may have happened while it's been in my garage (definitely more humid). Perhaps I can expect the reverse once it's in the house and it settles back to a normal RH.

Anyway, I'm assuming that there's no point in really trying to tune it properly until it's indoors.

Yikes! Hadn't thought about moths. I was wondering about mice. I'm pretty sure I saw a few mouse droppings in it at the PO's house. So I wore a mask when I was vacuuming and cleaning it out (fortuntely, I have plenty of those these days).

I haven't lifted the keys yet (you have to detach all 88 lifters to do that). But I did look under them with a mirror and flashlight, and didn't see any mice. Moths, or their larva, would be much smaller. I guess I'd better take a look.

I’ve never found critters in pianos but did have squirrels eat the wiring in my Jeep. Mice ate wiring in our Honda Ridgeline. I did find dead mice in an old oscilloscope and in a technologist’s lab. I don’t think the lab was ever cleaned. Fairly rude shock to find dead rodents under stacks of junk as I was installing wiring.

Rickster, now you have me paranoid about moths! I actually caught one flying into the house from the garage this evening when I brought in some groceries. Never seen a moth in the house before. I managed to squash it. I'd better check the piano out.

j&j, my daily driver is a Jeep! Never found anything in it, but as I mentioned above, cockroaches are a fact of life in Georgia. And there are evil mutations of them--Palmetto Bugs--that can actually fly! When I still lived in Georgia my home had a "car port," which is basically a garage without a door and pretty common throughout the south. It was my habit to always leave the top down on my Miata, since the parking was covered, until once upon entering the car some sort of monster flew up from the floor boards and smacked me right in the face! From that point on I always put the top up when parking.

In Georgia, some cockroaches are large enough to ride like a skateboard, and have been known to fly away with small children! Ok, that's an exaggeration, but they can get pretty large and disgusting. And, technically, a "Palmetto Bug" is just another name for cockroach, not just the kind that can fly, but my hometown is on the South Carolina border, and we like to blame the worst of them on the folks across the river.

I have always used moth balls in my pianos ,especially if I see a moth .I usually hang some in a cut out end of a stocking filled with a few moth balls.
When the moths dissappear I just take out the bag and hide it somewhere near the piano.
I use cedar blocks in book shelves because I saw a few Silverfish among some books.I do not know
if these drive away moths though, although they natural and smell nice.
Moth balls do chase away moths.

I picked up some mothballs this evening, and put them in.

(Too late to edit the above.) The mothball package says they'll kill moths and larva in 7 days if in an airtight container. The piano is closed up, but not quite air tight, so I draped a tarp over it too. I'll leave it sit for a few days, as just another precaution before I bring it into the house.

Of course mothballs are not healthy, and I think someone said that in Europe they are banned.(not sure ?) I think its OK to leave them in or near the piano for a few weeks or even a month or two.
It seems to be the small moths one needs to watch out for.Early spring and summer is when they will.be most present.
I have never had a piano where moths have taken over but do remember a musty old
church piano in the hall having quite a few moths flying around it.
Your plan sounds like a good one !

Cedar is not effective for adult moths nor mature larvae

http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov/eh/docs/Specialized/Vector_Management/managing_Clothes.pdf

My garage smells like moth balls.

Well as long your clothes do not smell like moth balls you will still be popular.!

You do not need too many in the piano for it to work though.

I remember our first spring in Canada my husband wore his favourite cardigan (sweater )to a restaurant.While we were half way through our soup an elderly lady sitting nearby said out loud "what smells of mothballs balls ?" ,to her friends.
Of course when had we moved into our house we noticed small moths hanging around the
closet.I bought moth balls after my husband found a few holes in clothing. He took some moth balls
and put them in amongst some clothes ! (even though I suggested otherwise")

We started to laugh ,my son was really so embarrassed but my husband hates the smell of moth balls since that evening.)
Since a piano technician many, many years ago suggested mothballs for protecting pianos.I use them occasionally.

Hi. Beyond playability and personal (lack of) enjoyment, there is maintenance. My piano tech, who is a Steinway technician here in NYC, has this to say about this topic:

"Spinets in bad condition are the bane of piano tuners; they are a hard to do repairs on because the action is difficult to get at, removing the action to replace any broken strings is very complicated, and because of the inharmonicity of the short strings, they are very difficult to tune. Technicians I know would not want the work. I would go to the Piano Technicians Guild website, where a search can be done for registered technicians, who have passed strict tests and piano servicing, in a given geographical area. He should search for "RPT's" (registered piano technicians). A piano is a spinet if the action is located below the back of the keys."

Good luck.

Wimps!

I agree ,and besides this is not spinet but a console !
At 47" it's a studio piano.

Thanks, cfhosford!

It's so thoughtful of you to query your "Steinway Technician" about all this.
What are his thought's on mothballs? How many, and how long should I leave them in?

Hi Retsacnal,

I wouldn't think you'd need the moth balls in the piano for too long, and you might not have needed them at all. If the Baldwin console was stored in a home that was lived in and was kept pretty clean, I doubt there are any "critters" inside to begin with. Of course, I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't torture myself too much, and have to smell moth balls for too long.

The old upright piano I got that had the live moth larva under the keys was stored in an old farmhouse that had not been lived in for years. Not long after I got the old upright piano, the owners of the house let the rural, volunteer fire department use the house to practice their firefighter skills by burning the old farmhouse down, instead of tearing it down. Of course, I'll bet that got rid of the moth problem inside the house.

As for the moth balls, I honestly think they've become somewhat of a thing of the past, although they still work to prevent/kill moth larvae and live moths.

As for how long to leave the moth balls in your piano project, I did a quick Google search and didn't actually find a clear answer. I think people who use moth balls use them continuously.

As for the Steinway Piano Technicians not wanting to work on a spinet piano, well, they wouldn't dare stoop that low and denigrate themselves to such a degree.

Not sure this helps, but I hope it does.

Rick

It used to be a "thing" that was suggested by technicians.I even remember one technician really talking about hammers or dampers being destroyed by moths.I found that disturbing even though there were no moths around.Later I realised that technician did seem to dramatize .

When we first came to this house there were a few small moths and yes they always appeared in the room which serves as our closet. I have found one or two in the piano room so I tend to still
use them.
But no we do not have swarms of moths flying all over !

Wow, can't believe it's been two weeks...

Thanks for the thoughts, Rickster. TBH, my response above was a little bit snarky because I thought he was deliberately insulting, or just absolutely missed the overarching theme of the thread (that I deliberately sought out a freebie to learn on--so why suggest I hire an RPT to work on a piano that may very likely end up in the trash anyway?). But then I read this post the next day in which he says he wants to be "kind to others always, cheerful and helpful." So I assume he was trying to be kind and helpful (and missed the point of the thread).

Anyway, the consolette is still marinating in moth balls. I'll post more in a minute...

Ok, it's been two weeks, so I thought I'd post an update.

As I mentioned above, the piano is still mothballed, but mainly because it's still in my garage. I decided to build my own dolly rather than rent one again. And each time I check Lowes for wood, they don't have suitable stock, or at least didn't, because I got some a couple days ago! (this is the same as when I got the wood for the ramps--apparently toilet paper isn't the only thing that's hard to come by during the pandemic).

Now the problem is screws! They don't have the right size to mount the castors to the wood. I'll probably order them online because 1) I don't know when they'll get them back in stock, and 2) I don't go out every day (maybe once a week for groceries and such, and I'll pop in at Lowes at the same time).

Another problem is that I wanted to buy a circular saw to cut the boards, but more importantly for a few other projects I need to do around the house, and they also didn't have those in stock (well, they had very high end ones, but I didn't want to spend a fortune on one), so as long as they didn't have the wood I wanted, I might as well also have waited on the saw. The good news is that they also had some new saws in stock, and I bought one. The irony is that, for the dolly, I was actually able to buy boards that were already probably OK in terms of dimensions. More on that below though.


So, the piano is still in the garage, and things are moving at a slow pace (I have a hygrometer on it, and it's been pretty close to 60% all the time). Supplies have been hard to come by, but that's OK because there's no pressure to get it done. Frankly, it's my guilty pleasure, and I have other projects I need to do too, plus stuff for school...

Sounds good, Ret!

The mothball treatment is probably a good thing, just to be safe.

As for the circular saw, luckily, I have a couple of them, and I had three, but my youngest son borrowed my newest one, and never brought it back. Now, when he asks to borrow something, I tell him he is welcome to borrow anything I have, as long as he brings it back.

As for me, I haven't taken on any new projects lately. Been playing my pianos, and my guitars, and having a ball! Been getting my exercise in everyday, mowing my lawn/fields, and getting acquainted with my new neighbors who bought the home and property across the road from me. Nice folks. It is nice to have good neighbors.

I need to tune all my pianos, and do some light regulation, but that can wait too, till I'm in the mood. Since I'm retired now and have the time to do whatever I want, I find that I have to be in the mood to do something, unless it is necessary or urgent; in that case, I can manually change my mood.

As for snarkiness, I was out walking the other day, (some days I exercise in my exercise room, and some days I like to get out and walk) and a neighbor's dog started barking at me as I walked by their house, and I started barking back at the dog. I know it sounds silly, but I was in the mood for some peace and quiet, and listening to the birds sing, and enjoy the sunshine, and not hear a yapping dog protecting it's territory. So, I started barking back at the dog, and then howling like a wolf. The more I howled, the louder the dog barked. So much for the peace and quiet, but it felt good barking back at the dog.

After a while, me and the dog both got tired of barking at each other and left each other alone. But both our vocal chords got a good workout...

Now that's what I call snarkiness, both on the dogs part and my part.

Have fun with your piano project, my friend!

Rick

The Dolly

[this got to be a little long, so let me say up front that if my design looks like it's going to be a catastrophe, let me know. I'd appreciate feedback. Thanks. ]

The dolly is mocked up below. It's upside down because only gravity is holding it together. As I mentioned above, I haven't gotten screws yet to hold it all together.



"Spec's"

The boards are solid oak, since it's the strongest wood I could get.
The cross boards are 1x6's, and the front-to-back are 2x2's.
Width is 24 inches.
Length is 36 inches.
Wheelbase is about 25 inches.

Re. the dimensions, I had thought it ought to be a little shorter, and a little narrower, but after mocking it up like this, I think the length is about right, and the width is probably OK (thoughts?). In other words, when I get the screws I can just bolt it all together. Or, I could trim it down and bolt it all together.



"Design"

I looked at pictures of quite a few dollys. I watched several videos of a guy moving pianos by himself, and, in the large, I wanted it to work the same way, centered under the piano and using fixed castors (I don't want it to swivel off the side of my ramps!), so that you need to lift one end and reposition it to change directions. To that end, and based on a number of dolly pictures, I wanted overhang on each end, so that the weight of the piano on the non-lifted end would lever the opposite end of the dolly up under the piano (i.e. the dolly ought to sort of "stick" to the underside of the piano and change directions with it--of course I intend to strap it together too, but it looked like a good system in the videos), sort of like the kicktail on a skateboard. And since roughly 1/3 of the weight hangs off the opposite end, it won't be as difficult to lift and change directions. At least in theory...

I think I mentioned above that I got wheels with a 5 inch diameter so that they'd roll over bumps easier. But I also gave a lot of thought to how to "reclaim" some of that height so that the top wouldn't be too high (the typical design is 4 2x4s criss-crossed, adding 4 inches above the castors).

So I decided to mount the front-to-rear boards underneath relatively thin cross boards. The main force will be downward weight on the castors, so the boards above them need not be too thick. The weight of the piano will hold them in a plane, and the front-to-rear boards only sort of need to keep them aligned. At least in theory... Anyway, I think this will be nearly 3 inches lower, but still have the benefit of a fairly large diameter wheel. I stood on those 2x2's, and they didn't flex at all. Of course, I don't weigh as much as a piano.

I realized that some of the dollys I was considering were fairly tall, and I think that they can roll over a curb or step without catching underneath, and holding the piano up high enough that the end doesn't nose into the pavement, but I don't intend to do that. I will be going up three steps, but the 8 foot ramps will facilitate that.

Anyway, I think it's a well thought out, "elegantly simple" design (as we say in software engineering).



The wheels are rated at 330 lbs each, so it ought to support 1320 lbs, but the side that supports the frame and sound board is going to carry more weight than the key side, so I'm wondering about getting two more wheels to put on that side, just to more evenly distribute the weight, and for some redundancy.



I also got some rubber stair tread liners to put on the cross boards to provide more friction between it and the piano (I'll trim them to fit).

Anyway, that's the design. When I can get the right hardware to hold it all together, I'll finish it up. Hopefully it will be sufficient to move it into the house (and maybe out again later).

It's ironic that I went almost to Delaware to get it, but right now the most effort is going into moving it the last 40 or 50 feet into the house!

Wow, that's going to be a really nice piano dolly, Ret!

Rick

If you could mount the casters on the longitudinal pieces, possibly with some filler, that would allow the dolly to get over bigger bumps.

Thanks for the feedback, Rickster and BDB. I'd typed so much last night that I just posted and logged out!

"Longitudinal " is the word I was looking for and couldn't remember last night! But I'm not too worried about big drops. I won't have them in the house, and not really planning to start moving a lot of pianos. I did think of a number of ways to get more clearance on the underside, but preferred to sacrifice that for a lower deck.

I do wonder about a couple of things. For one, cutting the width down because uprights aren't usually 2 feet in that dimension, and that might balance the load on the wheels better. And, along the same lines, using multiple wheels on at least the "heavy" side to spread the load across more castors.

Sometimes you just have to let a dog know who's boss!!

Oh my dog thinks everything "is about him" He is "chihuahua" but there have been "whispers" that he has a touch of French Greyhound in his blood.,perhaps that's the reason.

Haha! Chihuahuas are always the boss! At least in their minds.

The dog with whom I had the barking contest was a smallish dog; a mixed breed for sure. A bit bigger than a Chihuahua, (maybe twice as big) but not a pit bull. Had it been a larger dog, I would have let it do all the barking, and possibly run instead of walk.

It's nice to find humor where we can.

Rick

When I had horses, I’d go for trail rides on the bosque and the ditch banks. I would ride past a house that had a really bold but tiny chihuahua. Crazy dog would race down the driveway and bark at me while I was riding a 1,200 lb. 16’2 hand gelding whose hoof was bigger than the whole chihuahua. If my horse accidentally stepped on him, he would have been a pancake! But that crazy dog would bark at us super close to where my horse was trying to walk. Good thing that horse didn’t scare easy.

Many years ago, when I worked as an HVAC service technician, I went into many customers homes to service and repair their HVAC systems. Many had house dogs. Usually, the smaller breads were the most ferocious. They'd bark at me to high heaven, constantly yapping, while the homeowner would try to get them to hush.

Most often, as long as I faced the dogs, they would just bark. On occasion, if I turned my back on them, they would run up behind me and nip/bite my lower legs near my heels. Most of the time, their teeth didn't penetrate my pant leg/socks. Sometimes they would. But I never got rabies, thank goodness.

The bigger breeds would usually just bark a few times and then hush, and be friendly, sometimes.

Not to ramble on, but I remember going to this upscale home in a very nice neighborhood, with expensive homes and cars. The house was probably 3000 sq ft brick veneer, with a nice swimming pool and a detached two car garage with a BMW and a Lexus parked there. I had to go in and check the thermostat, and the lady who came to the door was absolutely beautiful. She looked like a movie star or model.

She invited me in, and immediately I heard an odd sound, that turned out to be dog toenails hitting and scratching the nice wood floors. Next, two thoroughbred basset hounds rounded the corner as they come running to greet me. The dogs were very friendly too. But with the first breath I took after entering the house, I smelled the unpleasant odor of "dog" permeating all through the house.

Suddenly, when the strong smell of dog, particularly basset hounds, reached my brain, the home didn't look quite as nice, and the cars in the garage didn't seem quite as appealing, and the lady of the house was not quite as beautiful.

Moral of the story? I'm not quite sure, but what we see and what we smell are somehow related.

Sorry, Ret, didn't mean to horn in on your thread, but since we were talking about dogs, I thought I'd share that story... again.

Keep us updated on the progress of your piano dolly!

Rick

No worries! I had even forgotten that this was "my" thread! I'm as likely as anyone else to derail a thread, and, as I always say, the best threads always go off course.

Great stuff Rickster.

Especially ... "Moral of the story? I'm not quite sure, but what we see and what we smell are somehow related."

Sounds like a great theme for blues song - how about "Stank Eye Beauty"

Stank Eye could even be the name of a band.

Well when you take the mothballs out of your piano the smell will disappear quite soon so it still
be a a beautiful piano once again. So no worries there !

I always thought a "studio" piano was 47" but the other day I read that a 45" piano is a studio piano.
A 130 size, is an "vertical".I did not know that either. My belief was that all uprights are vertical.
Sorry I do not know why I am rambling.....

So, another two weeks have passed...

With the arrival of summer heat, the mothballs are baking in the garage, and their aroma is much more palpable. I should probably remove them, since they have certainly served their purpose by now, and the garage smells like Stank Eye is rehearsing out there.


Attitude check: between the drop action and short stubby keys, I have to confess that my zeal for the project is waning. I also find myself scanning CL for studios.


On yet another trip to Lowes, I checked for the screws I need to assemble the dolly. Still no luck. Decided to try Home Depot in the next suburb over. An employee at HD was very helpful. I hadn't sought help at Lowes because I've gotten pretty familiar with the fasteners section over the years, searching out replacement nuts and bolts for various things. Anyway, the guy at HD explained that the reason that I wasn't finding the size I needed (5/16" diameter) is because they no longer stock it (their fastenters bins seemed virtually identical to Lowes, and probably stocked by the same vendors). Anyway, he showed me that they are still available online.

After poking around on their website, I discovered boltdepot.com whose site seemed a little more navigable to me, and who also offered what I was looking for in small numbers. I ordered 16 screws, washers and nuts, and went ahead and ordered 16 wood screws too, to hold the longitudinal pieces to the cross pieces, to save yet another trip to the store. So, $20 worth of hardware, and $5 in shipping later, I was set.

The screws arrived today, and I drilled all the holes, but realized that I can't countersink the flat head screws. I had assumed that I could just use a larger drill bit to do it, but today I realized that my largest drill bit is not large enough, so I'll end up back at the store for a proper countersink bit, or ordering one.


Back to my attitude check. Each time I see it in the garage, I sort of blanch. I really don't want to mess with a drop action, and the keys feel really short. As long as it's here though, I have sort of decided to finish the dolly and to go through the motions of moving it inside as an exercise. I think what I really want is a studio (or at least a console w/o a drop action), but if I can't move the console then I certainly can't move a studio, so it remains a good exercise. I also want it out of my garage, where the space it's taking up is more and more noticeable. For example, I got a new stove the other day, and it hardly fit into the garage for unpacking, and now the old stove is taking up just as much space too. Maybe I can take it and the console to the dump in the same load. Actually, the stove is an in-counter cooktop, and will probably fit in my trashcan, but the the console won't. Sigh...


Anyway, the dolly is on hold again temporarily, while I source a proper countersink.

That would be a sad end for a nice little piano. I guess with all the electronic keyboards out there the spinet pianos are all doomed as they don’t fit into that “starter” lane anymore. I’m on the lookout myself specifically for a Spinet piano. But around here they seem to have suddenly disappeared. Probably already in the landfill. 😕

I agree that it would be the sad end for the piano.

I've thought about cleaning it up a bit and trying to find it a new home, but CL in my area is full of free spinets and free and nearly free larger uprights (this one is a console with a slightly dropped action). TBH, it's actually in pretty good shape. Initially I thought the key dip was off, but now I suspect that it was only my perception at the time (partly because of the shorter keys and that I was standing at the time). The only thing conspicuously "wrong" with it is that the hammers could use a little reshaping, and I'm planning to do that. The action feels fine, but my intention was to experiment some with it, and I may still do so, but I'm also gonna be on the lookout for something without a drop action. If I find it, this one will need to go.

Anyway, I was in a somewhat cynical mood when I wrote the previous post, but the reality is that when I'm done with it, it will probably be difficult to find it a home. The previous owners tried to give it away, and had trouble finding anyone. OTOH, they were pretty far out in the boondocks. I had my own reasons for seeking it out (to learn a little bit from it), but they don't include keeping it long term, and I'm gonna try not to get attached to it.

My goal is to find one and convert it into an acoustic/digital hybrid with a silent system record/midi Interface. New hybrids from Yamaha and Kawai cost $10,000 and more. I’ll try to create one for $1,000 all in.

I probably wouldn’t play it acoustically very often but it would be fun to have someone over and play it, maybe out of tune. Then say, “sorry, let me fix that“ and flip a lever and suddenly have a 9ft Steinway grand come out of that poor, poor, pitiful thiNg. 😆

Retsacnal, I have been following your progress with strong interest because I too have picked up a decent looking console (‘63 Everett) for my pianos tech learning that turned out to have thayer action which is a type of drop action. I’ve definitely learned a few things from it and repaired Here and there, but in the end I’ve sold it to a guitarist who is getting into piano right after I found a proper 48” upright. For a few days, I was worried about not being able to get rid of it in time for my new piano, but the buyer came prepared with friends and a trailer so I didn’t have to store the spinet in my already crowded garage. Your console/spinet is pretty photogenic, also you've given more maintenance and repair to it than a majority of free pianos on Craigslist so a chance of getting it out of your home is pretty good. If you know a piano teacher, he/she can let the words out to the students also.

Thanks for the kind words, K8KT. If you've already found a taller upright, and disposed of your console, then you're a couple steps ahead of me!

I actually have thought about going through a teacher to find a student who might want it. The guy I was studying with at the university where I teach ironically left last semester. I guess my playing was pretty bad! Actually he relocated to the west coast after the Fall semester, so I didn't take lessons this past semester. I could reach out to the department, I suppose. After my wife passed away I sang in a choir for a while, and I know the music director and his assistant both teach piano too, so I may reach out to them. The assistant also teaches music in a high school, so there may be potential leads there too.

Anyway, I talk about hauling it to the dump, but I will do my best to find it a good home. It's a surprisingly nice piano for a freebie.

Ret, I'm sure you'll find a good home for your Baldwin console/spinet hybrid. Just keep trying.

One of my old uprights is in my garage rather than in my piano shop, which is more environmentally friendly with insulated walls and a fulltime dehumidifier. But I just don't have the room for the upright in my piano shop, or my house, for now. The unfriendly garage environment is already taking a toll on the old upright. But I plan on playing it and enjoying it till it is too far gone.

If I had the room, I'd have a lot of old pianos just to give them a good place to pass on, if nothing else. But as we say here in the south, you can't put ten pounds of taters in a five pound bag.

Rick

I do want to get it out of the garage and into the house. It seems to be fairly sturdy, though, and I don't think the garage is doing it any harm. I've kept a hygrometer on it, and it's usually right around 60%. Fairly stable, actually. The heat has gotten up though. We've hit 99 the last few days running. The garage isn't insulated, and sort of splits that with the internal temperature, but I'm not exactly sure what the temperature is out there. I know that GA will have us beat slightly in both temperature and humidity, at least my hometown (Augusta).

In terms of elbow room, I'm pretty locked down. 1/4 acre lot. Draconian neighborhood association and covenants. My late wife kept the house amazingly well organized and made a nice home. This is one area where our skills complemented one another. I've made an effort to keep most of the house in a state that she would approve of, so I'm resisting accumulating pianos! I guess I could put some in the basement (something I never had in Ga), but getting them down there would be a hassle (I'm worried now about 3 steps, let alone a whole flight of them)!

Quick update: Today I went to Lowes and got the countersink bit.
When I got home I realized it's too small.

The screws are 5/16", and the countersink is 3/8". Ought to drop right in, right? So I discovered it's not for a 3/8" screw. That's it's actual size. My screws are 5/16, but the wide flat head I specifically sought out is much larger in diameter. In fact, this one is only 1/16" larger than the threaded part of my screw. Anyway, stupid mistake. I think if I had even stood there and thought about it while looking that I would have realized. But I just grabbed it and bolted for the next thing on my list (HVAC filters).

Too much detail...

TL;DR: I got the wrong size bit. Have to exchange it.

When you exchange it, bring the screw with you.

Definitely! Should have done so the first time.

It sounds like you’ve done the Lowe’s/Home Depot dance more than a few times.

Well, I just ran into another Everett spinet at someone’s shop and ended up volunteering to clean it up, so my time with spinets isn’t over yet. I’ll start working on it next week.

No job is complete unless you've had to return to the store for missing supplies or tools!


On that note, I couldn't get just the larger countersink. I had to buy a set. So I'm set for life in countersinks.


And two more crazy setbacks since my last update:

In the first, I realized that I had only ordered 8 sets of screws, washers and nuts to mount the wheels. I'm not sure what made me do that. Clearly, 4 per caster, so 16 for all 4 casters.

And for the second, when I reordered the extra 8 sets, for some reason on the washers I only entered 4!!

As crazy as it sounds, I went back in both cases and double-checked the emails sent to confirm the orders, and those were the numbers I keyed in.

Frankly, I'm not sure the washers are even needed, but fortunately, Lowes had packs of 5/16 washers, even though they didn't have that size screw.

Time for an update.

I've been working on the dolly, piecemeal, as the various bits of hardware have arrived. I had intended to use wood glue between the pieces of wood when I screwed them together, just for a little extra holding power, but I ended up gluing them before hand. Then I worried that the bond might break when the screws went in, but it didn't. The wood is so hard though that I drilled some pretty substantial pilot holes.

So, the dolly is done, and it seems to be holding like Fort Knox! Of course the acid test will be putting a few hundred pounds on it. I was too tired this evening to try putting the piano on it, and I want to clear out the garage a bit before attempting to move it into the house (gonna need a lot of elbow room to navigate--I don't want to hit anything).

Oh, in the Lessons Learned category, I've almost reached the price of this dolly in costs, so I might as well have bought one, although shipping was quite a bit. I think mine will be a little lower, which should make it a bit easier to work with.

I would think your custom made piano dolly would be better than the store-bought one, Ret. The dolly in the pic looks a little high to me, for piano work, although the welded, steel construction looks stought.

Plus, you have the satisfaction of knowing that you built the dolly yourself from scratch. That in itself is worth a lot.

Rick

I have never really seen at a dolly except when a piano is being delivered or removed.So I am always too distracted to really look at it. That one sure looks tough and well made.The other day I found my son's old skateboard ,for some reason it reminded me of that.
I am not suggesting someone try something like riding on it though.

Retsacnal
Have you moved your Baldwin upright inside your house yet ? If so how are you enjoying it ?

Retsacnal, somehow I missed all the pics on page 4. I like your large diameter wheels. The dolly should be easy to go over the bumps this way. I probably would have used 2x4 fir or spruce for all the wooden parts. My $25 dolly from Ace Hardware handles a console fine and I think it’s pine, but I do wish it has bigger casters. As for parts, there’s always McMaster Carr. They have multiple distribution centers across the US so the orders arrive very quickly. Overall, looking good!

Sorry I missed this the other day, Lady Bird. I saw it because...drum roll...I moved the piano in this evening, and I pulled up the thread to post an update. I had been sort of psyching myself up to do it. But I had a minor surgical procedure a few days ago and wasn't supposed to do anything strenuous. Anyway, today was the day. I was thinking about having my daughters video me doing it, but I still have some bandages on my check, so instead I just took some pictures, and I'll post them below.

We shall be interested to see Retascal ! (wishing you a speady recovery from the surgery !)

Well, like I said above, I moved the piano this evening and the dolly worked flawlessly!

I'll post some pictures below with comments.

This first one is obviously the piano up on the dolly. I'd seen some one-man piano move videos on YouTube and used the same technique. I lifted one end, and rocked it up high enough to roll the dolly underneath. The higher you lift it, the easier it is, because as weight moves past the halfway point, it sort of counterbalances itself. Of course, the initial lift is pretty heavy.

Anyway, I was initially so worried about getting it high enough to get the dolly under the center that I actually lifted it too high, or at least the dolly was past the mid point when I put it back down, which you can see in the picture below (I lifted the right side, and rolled the dolly under towards the left).





The second picture is just a view of the piano up on the dolly from underneath.




Another view of the piano on the dolly.




This next picture is a view of the ramps from inside the house. At this point, I'd already rolled the piano up and into the house. The boards are 8 feet long. Sorry for the mess, but I had to move a bunch of things around to get a straight shot at the ramps. In that far bay I store things (lawnmower, tools, bikes, and other junk and projects), and the piano has also been sitting over there for the last month or two. I park my old roadster in the space where the boards are protruding (and I backed it outside for safety--in case things got out of control). My Jeep goes in the bay to the left.




This next picture is the piano just inside from the garage (the closed door). You can see this Baldwin's older brother in the background.

The house has an open floor plan. In the background you can see into the family room. The wall on the right is the backside of a pantry off the kitchen, but the family room flows into a breakfast room and kitchen, then dining room, and living room. But this little hallway cuts through to the foyer, and includes the door to the garage, a half bath and coat closet.




Basically the same view as above, but the piano has turned the corner.




Here's the piano rolled out into the foyer, and its destination is the little sitting room in the background.




On it's way in.





One more turn...
I had to shift some furniture around to make room. Not sure yet how it's all going to be re-arranged (this piano is not going to be permanent, although a taller upright may take it's place).
I just realized that one of my girls is in the background of this photo. They didn't seem bothered at all that I was dragging a piano in (just one more of dad's wacky projects )





Last picture...here's where it sits now.

Naturally, I've forgotten one more thing: caster cups. So for now it's still sitting on the dolly to protect the floor. I wrapped some towels around the wheels to keep it from moving. Anyway, at least it's inside and starting to acclimate.

Thanks, Lady Bird. That should say "cheek," not check. It was just a dermatology thing. My dad was a Navy pilot, so we generally lived on the water, and one of our few luxuries was easy access to the beach. We didn't know any better back then, but I'm paying for it now. The dermatologist is always freezing something or other, and biopsying stuff. About once a year for the last decade or so something will come back as basel cell carcinoma, which is a mild form of skin cancer. Fortunately, nothing ever worse than that, but this was the biggest spot they've ever had to remove. I've had several on my back, but this is the 4th one on my face, which is a little unnerving. This one was fairly large, and will probably leave a scar. Last year it was actually inside my nose, of all places. It was smaller, but more painful and intrusive. Anyway, sorry, TMI.

oh, one more thought: you may have noticed in the pictures that I didn't even strap the piano down to the dolly! It was really solid, and I wasn't worried about the piano tipping or falling. And since the ramps are 8 feet long, even that angle is not terribly steep (although it did take some effort to roll the piano up against gravity). All-in-all though, it wasn't terribly difficult! On the other hand, I'm sure a studio or larger will be a little more difficult, just given the extra weight.

So you got it in without a major calamity, good. Caster cups a good idea. My piano stands on a new carpet without caster cups ! ?
Yes what ever you do never try and move a 130 by yourself. They are so top heavy.....
Its good you had the surgery but a bother. I once had a quick growing black mole removed from my arm., fortunately it was benign.
You may find you really enjoy your piano more than you thought you would.

Congratulations on the piano move, Retsacnal!

Who was it that said "I love it when a plan comes together"... (Hannibal from the A-Team?).

Well it doesn't matter who else said it, you can say it, because your plan came together like a charm!

I've moved a few upright pianos by myself, and it is not an easy chore, whether the piano is big or small. Even some of the smaller ones can be rather heavy.

By-the-way, the interior of your home is beautiful!

Like Lady Bird said, you may enjoy the Baldwin console more than you think.

The pictures were great! Thanks for sharing!

Rick

Sorry I missed this last August. And thanks for the kind words.

Yeah, I think it was Hannibal from the A-Team who said "I love it when a plan comes together."

Speaking of plans...

The Fall semester was pretty hectic, so when it started I was distracted from the consolette. And, other than tuning it, it's actually in pretty good shape. But I also don't like the short keys and the feel of the spinet style lifters, etc. And, as I mentioned above multiple times, I'd prefer to explore a normal action, not the spinet action.

All that to say, I've had my eyes open for a suitable console or studio piano, and I found one. It's an old Baldwin Hamilton. It's 45" inches tall, so I guess technically it's a studio.

I brought it home last night. The owner's husband helped me load it into a UHaul trailer, but I unloaded it alone. I backed the trailer right up into the garage door opening this time, and just pushed it out of the trailer. It's in the garage for now, because I'll need to move the consolette out before bringing the "new" one in.

Here it is in the trailer before unloading.

Halfway out.

All the way out.

Good pictures !
Yes this a taller piano so I suppose it has the more regular action. So at the moment it's in your garage ? You will have to wrap it, so it does not get damp.
It's nice looking upright with that wood finish.That picture with the piano dangling ,looks like it's going to tipple over ?
Best wishes to you on your new piano.I know you are interested in tuning and and learning more about the technical odds and ends of a pianos "innards" but perhaps you and your girls will enjoy playing this one as well.

Nice pick! I think a Baldwin Hamilton is worthy of your TLC. Looking forward to the updates!

Congratulations on the old, but new-to-you Baldwin 243 studio upright, Retsacnal!

Hey, at the rate you're going, you will soon have as many old pianos as I do! And, I love everyone of them!

Seriously, those Baldwin studio uprights were built like tanks, and had a nice tone. Hope you enjoy it!

Good luck!

Rick

Thanks, Lady Bird!

Yes, this one has the full and normal action!

No worries about the humidity at the moment. This time of year it's pretty nice. In the Winter it's very arid, and in the Summer it's very humid, but at the moment it's quite nice.


It's actually pretty stable coming out of the tailer. The weird thing is that it's more likely to fall to the left in the picture (towards its back) than it is to roll forward. And it's very nearly balanced front-to-back at that point, with half the weight inside, and half outside.

The last bit was difficult. I can't stand fully in the trailer, and neither can I hunch over and lower the heavy end to the ground without (likely) aggravating my back (it's about an 18 inch drop -- 45 cm or so). So, in terms of working "smarter" and not harder, I stacked up some bags of mulch to almost the height of the trailer floor, under the piano, and pushed it out so that it had something soft to land on. Then I pushed it forward and it sort of rolled and squished through the mulch until it was fully on the garage floor. (I took a picture but didn't post it.)

The uprights look deceiving: all the weight is very near the back of the piano, so they aren't balanced, at least not as you perceive it ought to be.

Thanks, K8KT! This is definitely an upgrade from the consolette. It's more piano in almost every way. The little one, although solid and quality workmanship, is really just a tinkly music box with keys. It makes a surprising amount of noise for it's size, but it clearly has limitations. The main thing, though, is that I just didn't want to mess with the spinet style action.

Thanks, Rickster. You're right about the tank and the tone! I know it seems like I'm obsessed with Baldwins, but this is what I really wanted originally. I think I even posted earlier that I'd hoped the consolette was going to be a mini Hamilton. It sort of is, and it sort of isn't. I wasn't too bothered by the tone, but the action. Actually, I should say that I had hoped the consolette was a proper console, but it's not.

Anyway, I wanted a Hamilton just because I know it's got the track record of being ubiquitous (anything I learn on it is likely transferrable), and indestructible. It's the "everywhere" student piano. Who knows how many hours I spent playing them in lessons and practice rooms.

It actually seems like quite a nice piano. It could even be a keeper. The case is in good shape. It's got "great bones" and I'm sure it will fix up nicely.

The owners told me that they hadn't tuned it since they moved to that house nearly 20 years ago. Under the circumstances, it's in surprisingly good tune, even now in my garage. It needs some key-leveling, and other attention, but that's what I want to practice. I never did anything but tune the consolette, so it'll still all be new to me.

In regards to the Baldwin's tuning stability, I agree, based on the two that I've owned, (and still own one of them). In fact, the tuning pins are pretty tight. That can be a blessing and a curse. Tight tuning pins hold well, and for a long time. However, they can be "jumpy" when tuning. In other words, when tuning, the tight pins will resist moving with the tuning hammer, and then suddenly "jump" sharp or flat instead of moving smoothly. It just takes more time and patience when tuning.

But I'd rather have a tight pin than a loose one any day.

Good luck!

Rick

The drop action would build your character! Or non- family friendly vocabulary They are a pain for sure.

I am just wondering if you have brought your new upright in the house yet ? Also how did the tuning go ? As you can imagine since I thought for a while about adopting a Baldwin upright for a while, ( collecting pianos syndrome) I have been reading about Balwins history and where the different pianos were made in the US.
However perhaps this interest in having a piano I could learn to tune on has been set aside.( worried about a wrist problem coming back....? )

Wow, you're definitely in the lead re. P.A.S., but in the "Baldwin battle", I have three!

On a serious note, one isn't worth having. But I think the 243 has potential.

Haha, Yeah, I don't want to mess with it.

No, Lady Bird, it's still in the garage. For a couple reasons. One is that I've got caster cups on order for it. I found some really tiny ones for the consolette, and the studio has much wider casters. In fact, I probably don't really need caster cups for it, but in a preponderance of caution, I've ordered some. The other thing is that I also need to move the consolette out, and the studio in, and, TBH, I'm not looking forward to that.

So far I've only checked the key-dip. It feels shallow to me, but it only measures 1/16" so. But the keys are uneven as well, so not all the same measure. Anyway, I really don't intend to do anything with it until I move it inside.

The saga continues...



The Hamilton moves inside!

Sadly, for the Hamiton to move inside, the consolette had to move back out.

I really don't want it to have an ignoble ending, so I listed it online. It's actually a pretty nice little piano (given it's limitations, so perhaps I should say "in good condition"). Mostly out of curiosity, I listed it for the first 2 weeks for $100, just like any number of spinets I see online. Then for another 2 weeks for free. And finally 2 weeks with "I'll help you move it."



The picture below is on it's way out. I was admittedly a little nervous with it at this point, because once I pull it over that threshold gravity will start to tug pretty fiercely on it, and it's surprisingly heaving in that moment! To put it into perspective, it's more difficult to roll a piano up that ramp (or hold it going down) than it is to lift an end of it.

I jokingly told my girls to be ready to call 911!




But I did manage to get it down the ramp without rocketing out the garage door!


Changing of the Guard!

Below you can see the two nearly side-by-side. Hopefully you can get a perspective of how much "more" the Hamilton is. It's only 5 inches taller (the consolette is still up on the dolly), but it's also quite a bit deeper too. It's just "more" in every way. Naturally, it also sounds much better. The consolette -- although it's an Acrosonic and of high quality construction -- is really just a jangly music box that responds to piano-like keys. I hate to denigrate it, but it is what it is (a piano with a spinet-style drop action, short keys and a short soundboard). The Hamilton -- although it needs some work -- just has way more potential!





Disaster Strikes!

Well, maybe not "disaster," but...

Pushing and pulling the Hamilton around the garage resulted in one of the wheels splitting in two, as you can see in the picture below! There are dual wheels at each corner, so it still had one to roll on. But that brought up another issue: I had ordered caster cups, because the one's I had ordered for the consolette were too small. They were back ordered, so I cancelled. I hadn't re-ordered because I wondered if the dual wheels were sufficient to spread the weight (it'll be on a hardwood floor). But I also wrongly assumed that the wheels were rubber, and this one seems to be hard plastic (or rubber that's so ancient that it's fossilized).

Anyway, not only do I need caster cups, but at this point I think I'd better go ahead and order new casters as well.

Well, Ret, I believe you may be getting the "PAS" condition (Piano Acquisition Syndrome:-) after all. Of course, the "piano in, piano out" process works too!

One thing is for sure, you can never have too many pianos, if you like to tinker with them and have the room.

I still check out the pianos for free/for sale on FB Marketplace. I haven't check CL in a while. I actually don't have room for another piano at the moment, but you know how it is, if the right one comes along, we can make room.

Odd about the Baldwin castor wheel breaking. It must have experienced a mechanical trauma at some point in the past? It's hard to say. Sounds like you have everything under control though.

All the best!

Rick

Obviously the Hamilton weighs more than the consolette, which had just felt pretty heavy coming down the ramp, and lowering off the dolly. So out of a preponderance of caution, I took off the top and lower front panels to reduce the weight. Together they weigh 45 lbs, so I'm guessing roughly 10% of the total weight. Maybe not much in the big picture, but in a "straw that broke the camel's back" sort of way, I'm assuming that it helped.

Below you can see it with those panels off. You can also see some abrasions on the front where -- I assume -- it's been banged into things in practice rooms or a choir room at some point in its history.




Lifting it up onto the dolly was kind of humorous! It wasn't as hard to get off the ground as I thought it would be, but when I'd get the end up a foot or so it would just start to roll away from me! Unlike most casters, which seem to be for decoration only, these are pretty heavy duty (apart from the split one) and fully functional.

So, first I thought I'd "brace" the other end with a bag of mulch, but the piano is so massive that it just pushed that too. Then I tried to stomp it down to wedge under the wheels, but that didn't work either. Finally I decided to just lift that end and shove a bag of mulch under each wheel, so that they couldn't roll. And that worked.

To be honest, I didn't plan to push it all the way in. I'd already had a pretty good workout at the gym, and then brought the other one out, so I was a bit exhausted. But I thought I'd push it up onto the bottom of the ramps, just to get a sense of how heavy it would be. At that point I was thinking that I'd probably need to have a friend help me push it up, but once it was on the bottom, and I could feel the weight, I thought, "I can do this!"


The picture below is after the piano was pushed into the house, and the garage door is closed behind it to the right.




Same place, turned to head down the hall:




Peeking out the other end of the hallway:




Inching along...




Out in the foyer:




I decided to put the case parts back on, because 1) I needed to get behind it to best access the top's hinges (and it's ultimate destination is in a tighter space, against a wall), and 2) there's a lot more light in the foyer.




Final stretch:




Last turn:




It's new home!

It's still up on the dolly for now. I need to order caster cups and casters too.

Can you rent one of those contraptions which supports the piano while it lies on its back,so enabling you to attach the new castors?

Too late to edit, but a couple thoughts about the dolly:

First, I was worried about it holding up. This is obviously only the second piano its carried, and also the heaviest! So it was sort of a re-test of its capabilities, but it worked like a champ!

The second thing is how well it works. I put plenty of "overhang" at each end, because I wanted it to work like a skateboard: lifting weight at one end presses the other end down so that the dolly lifts with the piano. The dolly was solid as a rock, and stuck to the piano like glue. As you can see in the pictures, I don't even strap it down. And lifting an end to pivot it for turns is relatively easy.

YMMV. DTTAH. etc.

That's a good question, and to be honest I haven't thought that far ahead. I think I can just pry the old one's out, and press new ones in while it's up on the dolly. But I'm not sure about that, and depending on how much pressure is required, it might not be safe to do that way.

I think I have an even rarer form of PAS: BAS (Baldwin Acquisition Sndrome)! 3 and counting...


But, in all seriousness, the Hamilton is what I was really seeking when I brought the consolette home. I was hoping that it might be a sort of little brother to the Hamilton, but it's really not. The drop action and stubby keys are too big a compromise.

Anyway, that's part of the piano in, piano out compromise. I don't want too many. I too love to peruse the classifieds, and that's dangerous.

There's more to this story, but now is not the time to tell it...

It sounds rather dicey doing it that way.Perhaps if some guy can assist you while attaching the castors.I hope it works out. Its a nice looking piano.The soundboard looks in pretty good condition too.Those are tough pianos though.Good for you for
taking this on!

Well, interesting that you brought this up. I got a screwdriver, and popped another one out just the way I expected. But I looked online, and it looks like a set of these wheels run almost $100! (funny, 'cause I only paid $200 for the piano--it's a fixer upper). On a positive note, it looks like some have been replaced already, so perhaps I can get just the one. Have to do more digging.

Are you on Facebook? Facebook Marketplace might be a good place to list it (for $100, or very negotiable for the "right family" to encourage people to reach out?). If you have a local Buy Nothing group (search on Facebook for "Buy Nothing <your town and state>" that's a really good place to offer it as well. I love my group, it's not just about "free stuff" but it's also a wonderful community! I hope your spinet finds a good home!

I've changed casters on old uprights by jacking up one end high enough to lay on the floor and change out the caster with a screw driver; jack it up just high enough so the screwdriver will fit properly to remove the screws.

I use a process of wood blocks, prybars and a small hydraulic floor jack. It's no more dangerous than changing a tire on a vehicle, but caution is always in order. You can put down wood planks and pieces of carpet to protect wood floors. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Beautiful home, by the way!

All the best!

Rick

If you pry out the old caster, the new one should pop right in. Lowering the piano on it will lock it in place, if, and this is a big if, it is the proper size. That is not always the case. If the stem is too narrow, it will not hold, but the weight of the piano will hold it in place. If the stem is too wide, you may need to replace the socket, and that requires access to the bottom of the piano. Without a tilter, I would do that by putting the piano on its side, on the dolly or a block.

Of course, you may not feel competent to do this. This could be something where it is worth getting someone to do it for you. They may have a tilter, and may sell one caster instead of a set.

Thanks for the tips, BDB. The stem is snug, but I was able to work it back in, not quite far enough to re-seat the friction ring, but far enough that the piano's weight will definitely finish the job, as you suggest.


My first cursory wheel search just hit Amazon, where fulls sets were $80+. I did a little more searching last night, on some more industrial sites, and see individual dual casters for about $8. Plus they list more spec's, so I should be able to match the original stem dimensions and pop them right in (assuming the sockets are healthy).

Ironically, the one I popped out has two "healthy" wheels (not "fossilized" like the split one), so I assume some of the corners have been replaced along the way. I'll have to take stock of the other two. One clearly needs to be replaced.

Hopefully whichever other corners need replacing will work as easily as the one I checked out last night.

While it's up on the dolly I have about six inches to work with. If that's not enough, I can roll it back to the garage door, where I could roll the edge out over the first step, which would give me a little more, and if that's not enough the stairs can be moved away altogether, leaving two or three feet.

Anyway, I think there's sufficient clearance. I don't want to give anyone the impression that my DIY-engineering is risky. It's amazingly stable on the dolly, and I'm not gonna wail, wrench or hammer on it hard enough to tip it over!

Yes, I'm on FB although not a huge user. I've poked around the marketplace--mostly looking at pianos--but I've never listed anything there.

I don't really want any money for it. The main reason I listed it first with a price is because there're so many spinets in the 100-200 range that I was curious if it would garner any interest. I think a lot of the asking prices are set based on faulty expectations. First of all, people just think pianos are "valuable," and they take a look and see many listed in a given price range, so that's how they set their price. Often people have held on to pianos for a long time, believing it's like money in the bank. They're big. They're intricate. It costs "a lot" to move and tune them, and they were relatively expensive in their day. I forget the psychological principal, where people will instantly accept that their car, home, or stock portfolio goes up in value, but they resist the notion that it can go down. I think this is similar.

Anyway, as we all sadly know, many of these old pianos have negative value to the owners who have to pay to have them hauled away. It's ironic how many of these same ads have something like "you have to move it," or "professional movers required."

So, I even tried "I'll help you move it," to mitigate the negative value.

Online classifieds are littered with free and nearly free pianos that no one wants.

I think the unfortunate reality is that no one will want this one either.

Have you any thrift stores around? You could offer it to one of them perhaps?

That's something I hadn't thought of. Might be worth a try.

Thanks, Rickster. Sorry I missed this before.

Wow, it’s been six weeks...

Since the new-to-me R arrived, I’ve been a little distracted. In fact, so distracted that I forgot to order castors! But I did, and they arrived about a week ago. Three of the castors on the piano are fossilized. But the healthy one is a firm rubber, which I thought would be ok on the hardwood floor, so I have not ordered castor cups.

But the wheels I ordered ended up being hard plastic, which i am not comfortable putting directly on the hard wood. I’ve found the rubberized ones online, and they’re more than twice the price of the plastic ones, but I think I’m going to order them anyway, to protect the floor.

If it were on carpet I’d be ok with the plastic wheels.

You can see the one “healthy” rubberized wheel in the picture below, along with the four new plastic wheels.

Anyway, I haven’t had much time for this because I have a pressing research deadline and also a programming project going too.

Nice, Baldwin Hamiltons are among my favorites. (BTW I was referred to this thread from another post of yours.)

I have two - one from 1950, and the other also from 1956, but a bit later in the year. (My 1956 Hamilton is #167714, I think (although it's hard to read the serial in the small pic) yours is #165885?)



Interesting thing ... looks like yours has a bit different scale vs mine. Mine is what I think is the 243 scale, while yours is the 242. (Some techs want to correct me if I'm wrong?, although Bruce Stevens RPT in South Bay CA PTG chapter has told me that's what it is.)

I think, apparently 1956 was the year Baldwin made one of the big scale design changes, which IMO is a bigger change than when they went to 4 bichords in the tenor in the mid/late 1980s, also I heard they made another more minor change sometime in the 1970s but idk what it was.
Besides changing from all plain trichords in the tenor to putting 2 bichords in the tenor, Baldwin also widened the entire piano a few inches and lengthened the bass strings.


About 11 and a half years ago, I measured some strings in both my Hamiltons (with a string measuring tool that I'd acquired from Arledge strings some time before). I recently found the table I had made. (It also includes my mom's baby grand piano, but regrettably does not include my full-size upright that I had before the Hamiltons, although I think the longest bass string (speaking length) in that piano was around 56" or so, but I forget the tail length. (I wonder if Arledge still has the data on that, because I did buy strings from them for that piano in the mid 2000s...)) I'll link it here, and also post some (brief) string info below.

Hamilton 242 #144211 (1950), A0:
• 1168 mm / 45.984" = hitch pin to upper termination pin (near tuning pin, table says agraffe but this piano doesn't have those)
• 1091 mm / 42.953" = speaking length (upper bridge pin to upper termination pin)
• 58 mm / 2.2835" = backscale length (hitch pin to lower bridge pin)

Hamilton 243 #167714 (1956), A0:
• 1311 mm / 51.614" = hitch pin to upper termination pin (near tuning pin, table says agraffe but this piano doesn't have those)
• 1215mm / 47.835" = speaking length (upper bridge pin to upper termination pin)
• 77 mm / 3.0315" = backscale length (hitch pin to lower bridge pin)

I shall have to come for a visit to see who has the best Baldwin
Hamilton."The proof of the pudding is in the eating!"The tone and touch are the most important points.Nothing else really matters.
Retsacnal I can see a lovely picture of your girls on the wall.

Yep, that's my serial number.

Funny, I'd never thought about the scale of this one. I know there are different versions of the casework.

Anyway, since you mentioned the scale I looked it up. The 1967 Baldwin service manual lists two scales for 45" uprights, and -- you are right -- mine is the older one (60 trichords).

There are so many Hamiltons around, we could probably do a North America tour!


Thanks tre corda. They were pretty young in that photo. I'm biased, but I think they're lovely too.

So, after those recent posts it occurred to me that maybe I should post an "update."

I've been pretty busy, so not much changed, actually, but the second set of wheels I ordered arrived a week or so ago and I installed them with no hitches (concerns about having enough space mentioned above). The old fossilized wheels popped right out, and the new ones snapped right in!

I used my bag-o-mulch method to get it off the dolly (didn't want it slamming into any walls). Mrs. Retsacnal probably wouldn't have appreciated a bag of mulch in the parlor, but what she doesn't know won't hurt.

Anyway, not earth shattering progress, but it's nice to have it down off the dolly, and it rolls around easily on its new wheels.

Ah interesting I wonder what it says about the two different scales? (For example the differences, when it was changed, or other things...)

Also does it mention any scales for Acrosonic spinets, or for older full size uprights?

I really enjoyed the Baldwin 243 studio upright piano I had for a while. It sounded good and played well for my purposes.

As for the string scale, you could look at the wire strings with the naked eye and tell they were bigger than other similar piano. That is why they call it a "high-tension" scale.

I had a conversation with Del Fandrich via PW PM once about Baldwin pianos and string scales. He said they used a higher tension string scale to help achieve that peculiar tone the Baldwins have. As he put it, some like it and some don't.

I've recently downsized a bit and got rid of a couple of my acoustic pianos. I'm down to 6 now, and one is on it's last leg. Of course, I do have my favorite, that I play the most. But having more than one piano to play is nice, and fun. Adds a little variety to the piano playing experience...

Sounds like you are coming along fine with your project pianos, Ret!

All the best!

Rick

It does mention others. I think there are 4. One of the two scales listed for the 45" also does double duty for a taller size (54?). And I think an Acrostic.

Rather than go from memory, I'll try to check it and post them later.

Thanks, Rick. I'm not setting the world on fire. I'm so distracted at the moment, with other stuff. I find myself stealing time away just to poke around on them a bit.

The funny thing is that now the Hamilton looks really small. It was up on the dolly for so long that I sort of got used to that height. It was up about 8" higher than normal. Ironically, I could sort of play it like a stand-up desk! Now the keyboard is down at the proper height.

Here's a picture of the page of treble wire scales. Good thing I didn't go from memory!

Looks like 5 scales shared across several models, including Acrosonic, Howard, and Hamilton.

The older 45" scale was also used on the 54" model too.

Quick update:

The consolette got a stay of execution last week.

I had sort of queued up several jobs that would require renting a trailer, since I don't keep one at home:

1) haul two old mattresses to the local waste disposal site.
2) haul a huge pile of yard clippings there too
3) cut down two trees and haul them away
4) dispose of the consolette

Thinking strategically, I planned to split the work into two days, but within the 24 hour trailer rental, but the short story is that the work took much longer than I anticipated, and more round trips to the waste disposal site than I expected. I had also rented a chain saw, and it was due back 30 minutes before the trailer, and I barely made it under the wire for both deadlines. And, I was so exhausted that even if there was more time, I had no more energy to move the piano anyway.

All that to say, the consolette is stil in the garage.

The Ignominious End...
(for the consolette)

A few weeks ago I started removing pieces and putting them in the trash each week. The photos below are from the first piece back in January.

It's basically a strung back now, with a few pieces of casing glued on.

I was planning to start cutting it up, but as luck would have it, it looks like I'll need to rent a trailer for some yard work soon, so I think I'll just haul the rest to the dump.