Piano World Home Page
In the thread named looking for an upright for jazz they removed my commentary. The op, out of the blue wrote in his first message against trade unions calling european factories labor union spoiled and blaming trade unions for the problems of american car factories

I don't like to start political discussions here or anywhere else but i respond when workers are under attack here or anywhere.

So my commentary was removed. Fair enough for me. But the ops first message with its attack to trade unions is still there.

So my comment is removed because of political reasons because i stand for the labour rights, but the ops first message attacking labour rights is not political?
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2920739/upright-for-jazz.html#Post2920739
Quoting first comment of the ops:

"in fact sometimes I think that developing markets are so ambitious and motivated that build quality may be even better than in spoiled labour-unioned European factories - remember US motor industry and Toyota Motor Company history?) But then again, I have zero experience in this field it is just my guts feeling"

Is this political or not?
Originally Posted by Snail
Quoting first comment of the ops:

"in fact sometimes I think that developing markets are so ambitious and motivated that build quality may be even better than in spoiled labour-unioned European factories - remember US motor industry and Toyota Motor Company history?) But then again, I have zero experience in this field it is just my guts feeling"

Is this political or not?

absolutely
I've experienced this too when what seems to me to be obvious political commentary is responded to with arguments on the other side, and when the moderators respond, only the arguments of one side are deleted. This seems to show a bias. In many cases, the moderators maybe well meaning but because they themselves might be partisan, they may not even recognize that the arguments on one side are "political." Certainly we all know people who view one side as "truth" and the other side as "political." In fact, there might be such sensitivity to the other side that even references not to politics, but to certain people (including people who are not politicians), are deemed to be political on that side, whereas they might not be deemed to be such on the subjectively "truth-ier" side.

Just saying people are always flawed and even if there was a perfect moderation system and a perfectly fair set of rules, once people are put in charge of it, mistakes will get made, some of which are not even seen as mistakes possibly because of these flaws.
Originally Posted by Snail
Quoting first comment of the ops:

"in fact sometimes I think that developing markets are so ambitious and motivated that build quality may be even better than in spoiled labour-unioned European factories - remember US motor industry and Toyota Motor Company history?) But then again, I have zero experience in this field it is just my guts feeling"

Is this political or not?


Actually, I think it is not very political, since a) it was an almost insignificant part of the entire post, and it was put in paranteses, and b) the OP clearly stated this was a thought, rather than absolute truth, and c) the OP further mellowed the statement by acknowledging it to be a "gut feeling". Basically, it seems the OP was stating his/her opinion as a small side remark.

Since I have not seen your post in response to the OP, I have no idea whether there, from my point of view, would have been any reason to treat it differently from the OP. But if it was kept in the same style of the OP, there should have been no reason to remove it (as far as I am concerned).
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.
I may agree that my comment was fairly removed because i admitt my head went hot when i saw that attack to trade unions and i wrote several things not to be proud of.

But still, blaming trade unions for the wrong things in society is a clear extreme right wing position, so at least that part could have been remooved.

Or they could have edited my comment to delete the nasty words and let remain the political response.

But as it is i don't think it is fair.

And i don't complain because of a personal issue regarding myself. I stand for the labour rights, here and everywhere.
Originally Posted by Snail

But as it is i don't think it is fair.


Like many things, maybe even most things in life, it isn't fair.

On this forum, there is no rebuttal or discussion of such matters. The only recourse is the REPORT button.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by Snail
Quoting first comment of the ops:

"in fact sometimes I think that developing markets are so ambitious and motivated that build quality may be even better than in spoiled labour-unioned European factories - remember US motor industry and Toyota Motor Company history?) But then again, I have zero experience in this field it is just my guts feeling"

Is this political or not?


Actually, I think it is not very political, since a) it was an almost insignificant part of the entire post, and it was put in paranteses, and b) the OP clearly stated this was a thought, rather than absolute truth, and c) the OP further mellowed the statement by acknowledging it to be a "gut feeling". Basically, it seems the OP was stating his/her opinion as a small side remark.

Since I have not seen your post in response to the OP, I have no idea whether there, from my point of view, would have been any reason to treat it differently from the OP. But if it was kept in the same style of the OP, there should have been no reason to remove it (as far as I am concerned).


I found the OP’s gut feeling post to be political and personally offensive. I am surprised that it was not edited by the mods.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.


I think this is what's happening. The mods (being volunteers I presume so I understand) aren't scrubbing the whole thread. I think they're just reacting to "reports" of particular posts. They can correct me if I'm wrong.

I've seen other forums where moderators shut down the whole thread to scrub it clean of offending remarks rather thoroughly, then re-open the thread with a warning to not re-offend. I don't think that is what is done here on this forum. But this kind of scrubbing takes enormous time and effort, and from what I understand, sometimes more than one moderator!
Originally Posted by Snail


I don't like to start political discussions here or anywhere else but i respond when workers are under attack here or anywhere.





Instead of ignoring, you went into it.

Silence is golden.
Originally Posted by Learux
Originally Posted by Snail


I don't like to start political discussions here or anywhere else but i respond when workers are under attack here or anywhere.





Instead of ignoring, you went into it.

Silence is golden.


+1

I didn't see the OP's deleted comment, but trust the Mod's judgment that it was political, especially given the OP's concession to that effect.

I wouldn't characterize the quoted text as an "attack on workers," and other than the word "spoiled" it isn't even qualitative. Acknowledging certain counties' comparative advantages isn't political, it's just fact. Attributing it to unionization in this case may be an oversimplification, but it's true that Germany has higher costs woven into their economy. For example, if I'm not mistaken, their social security system goes back to the 19th century. Taxes and wages are relatively higher. Also, the phenomenon where nonunion factories sometimes produce higher quality is also fact.

It's an age-old quandary: everyone wants German quality for Chinese prices, but most would probably prefer to work in a German factory for German wages, healthcare and retirement. Then again, they'd rather pay Chinese taxes and rent...
In defense of the moderators here, I agree that they rarely take action in a thread unless there are moderator reports, i.e., someone sends the mod a PM stating they feel a particular thread needs moderator attention/intervention.

The moderators do not typically "patrol" or "monitor" the threads/posts/comments. They simply do not have the time to do this, and the moderators usually distance themselves from engaging and participating in the forum threads as regular members/participants. Hence, part of the sacrifice they make in order to carry out their duties as a moderator, which is the hardest job anyone here on PW has...

Also, this is not a democratic internet forum where the majority rules, or the mods decisions are up for appeal. Frank Baxter makes the rules, and the moderators try to use that as a basis for the decisions they make. Someone is always going to "not like" or disagree with any decision a moderator makes, especially the member whose comments get deleted, or gets rebuffed/scolded by a mod in the thread.

If a member gets really huffy, or the offense is egregious enough, or repeated, the offending member may get a week or two suspension from the forum. The members attitude has a lot to do with that. But the suspensions usually involve making personal attacks against other members repeatedly or committing the same offence repeatedly.

Yes, you can make your feelings and thoughts known to the moderators, as the OP in this thread has done. The mods will allow you to vent a little and state your displeasure. But it will not change their decision. The moderators may not always be right, particularly in the mind of some members here, but they are always the moderators, and their decisions stand. On a very rare occasion, a moderator may reverse their decision for various reasons, but very rarely.

Personally, I think the moderators here do an outstanding job, they do it for free, and they rarely receive the recognition they deserve.

Rick

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.


I think this is what's happening. The mods (being volunteers I presume so I understand) aren't scrubbing the whole thread. I think they're just reacting to "reports" of particular posts. They can correct me if I'm wrong.

I've seen other forums where moderators shut down the whole thread to scrub it clean of offending remarks rather thoroughly, then re-open the thread with a warning to not re-offend. I don't think that is what is done here on this forum. But this kind of scrubbing takes enormous time and effort, and from what I understand, sometimes more than one moderator!


The mods have been known to scrub the entire thread. Only they could answer why it wad not done here.
In your post, you made some commentary about Greta. At least in the United States, that gets into politics whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

So the commentary gets deleted. Why? Because we do not need people getting upset, insulted, or fighting. That just causes problems. We suddenly have everyone reporting everyone else and it is a total mess to sort out. Sometimes it causes people to get banned. People who may never stirred up a bit of trouble except some sort of political statement pushed the right button in their head. It happens.

So even things about environmentalism, whether extreme or making light of it, can be political and inflame people. So do statements like "It is so much better in "INSERT YOUR FAVORITE COUNTRY HERE) than it is in (INSERT YOUR LEAST FAVORITE COUNTRY HERE). Or anything similar. To the poster it might seem perfectly innocent, but it will get arguments started.

Consider, these forums were started to discuss pianos and playing. Heaven knows that even these sort of topics get people's shorts in a knot as well. But they are the safest ones where we can discuss with a minimum of contention. There are MANY forums on the internet and I am certain that there is some forum out there to discuss what is off topic here.
So standing for labour rights gets deleted. Atacking labour rights is ok. But you don't want people getting upset. So then treat people equally regardless of their ideology or recognize your bias towards right wing positions.

My goodness, and all this while in France trade unions are fighting in national strike in defense of social security retirement rights.
Originally Posted by Ken Knapp
In your post, you made some commentary about Greta. At least in the United States, that gets into politics whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

So the commentary gets deleted. Why? Because we do not need people getting upset, insulted, or fighting. That just causes problems. We suddenly have everyone reporting everyone else and it is a total mess to sort out. Sometimes it causes people to get banned. People who may never stirred up a bit of trouble except some sort of political statement pushed the right button in their head. It happens.

So even things about environmentalism, whether extreme or making light of it, can be political and inflame people. So do statements like "It is so much better in "INSERT YOUR FAVORITE COUNTRY HERE) than it is in (INSERT YOUR LEAST FAVORITE COUNTRY HERE). Or anything similar. To the poster it might seem perfectly innocent, but it will get arguments started.

Consider, these forums were started to discuss pianos and playing. Heaven knows that even these sort of topics get people's shorts in a knot as well. But they are the safest ones where we can discuss with a minimum of contention. There are MANY forums on the internet and I am certain that there is some forum out there to discuss what is off topic here.

Why are people arguing about a movie. Greta got 60% approval on Rotten Tomatoes it can't be all that bad.
It's at times like this that I feel as though I'm the only one who comes to this piano forum to learn/talk about piano stuff. frown
Originally Posted by Snail
So standing for labour rights gets deleted. Atacking labour rights is ok. But you don't want people getting upset. So then treat people equally regardless of their ideology or recognize your bias towards right wing positions.

My goodness, and all this while in France trade unions are fighting in national strike in defense of social security retirement rights.


I hope you don't get upset at my suggestion, but in times like these, it truly is best to just step away from the keyboard and let things be. I know things aren't fair and I've had comments deleted before too because they touched on being "political", but it really is the higher ground to let it go.

Believe me, I wanted to reply to that original message too, but not in regards to the bit about the union, but I thought the OP's "gut feeling" about pianos from a certain part of the world was off, really off. But then I kinda knew that that could get contentious and so I refrained.
Originally Posted by Ken Knapp
. . . So the commentary gets deleted. Why? Because we do not need people getting upset, insulted, or fighting. That just causes problems. We suddenly have everyone reporting everyone else and it is a total mess to sort out. Sometimes it causes people to get banned. People who may never stirred up a bit of trouble except some sort of political statement pushed the right button in their head. It happens. . . .


I am the moderator of a synagogue listserv, and have been dealing with these problems for several years.

I think that Ken is right:

. . . The moderator's primary job is not to "be fair" -- it's to keep the comment stream from blowing up !

When Snail writes:

Quote
. . . I don't like to start political discussions here or anywhere else but i respond when workers are under attack here or anywhere.


he's offering to do exactly what a moderator _doesn't_ want to have happen:

. . . he's going to raise the emotional temperature of the discussion.


I sympathize with him -- he wants to maintain "balance" -- but the effect is often to start things spinning out-of-control.

. . . So the moderator kills the comment.


Anyone who wants to read a classic paper about this situation can do so here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8451443_The_Online_Disinhibition_Effect

The PDF is free to download, and well worth reading.


PS -- Note that I am speaking for myself, _not_ for Ken -- so don't blame him for what I've said.
Originally Posted by Snail
So standing for labour rights gets deleted. Atacking labour rights is ok. But you don't want people getting upset. So then treat people equally regardless of their ideology or recognize your bias towards right wing positions.

My goodness, and all this while in France trade unions are fighting in national strike in defense of social security retirement rights.




It looks like your brain works at the speed of your name.

This is just adding fuel to an almost out fire, I suggest you find a different forum because you don't want to listen to any advice given here.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.


I know this not to be true. I wanted to counter the politics in this post http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...litical-and-what-is-not.html#Post2921263 and I wrote a reply, then posted, then deleted then reported the post for being political. Since the post is still very much there I am guessing if the politics of a post is what a moderator feels is just common sense then it just gets left to stand.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.


I know this not to be true. I wanted to counter the politics in this post http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...litical-and-what-is-not.html#Post2921263 and I wrote a reply, then posted, then deleted then reported the post for being political. Since the post is still very much there I am guessing if the politics of a post is what a moderator feels is just common sense then it just gets left to stand.
I didn't say that if one reports a post the mods will always respond by deleting the post. That would be a ridiculous approach for the moderators to take.
I think the PianoWorld Moderators do a fabulous job. If I want political commentary there’s all the news networks and social media apps. I come to PW to escape politics. grin
Originally Posted by j&j
I think the PianoWorld Moderators do a fabulous job. If I want political commentary there’s all the news networks and social media apps. I come to PW to escape politics. grin


Frankly I am getting sick of the right wing talking points that are just casually inserted into the discussions like it is just normal and I am just meant to accept it.

There is plenty of political commentary. Far more than I want. If it is just allowed to continue to happen without challenge there is going to be more of it, though of course as the views become ever more acceptable and normalised it will become even more so just viewed as common sense.

I would love to just talk pianos. But it seems I have to accept the political commentary without being allowed to respond.
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by j&j
I think the PianoWorld Moderators do a fabulous job. If I want political commentary there’s all the news networks and social media apps. I come to PW to escape politics. grin
Frankly I am getting sick of the right wing talking points that are just casually inserted into the discussions like it is just normal and I am just meant to accept it.

There is plenty of political commentary. Far more than I want. If it is just allowed to continue to happen without challenge there is going to be more of it, though of course as the views become ever more acceptable and normalised it will become even more so just viewed as common sense.

I would love to just talk pianos. But it seems I have to accept the political commentary without being allowed to respond.

I would be happy for there to be none at all, but as I mentioned above and you've just reiterated, one sides seems to come in stealth and be normalized, while the other side's is immediately deleted. Let's just not have any from either wing, then.
You guys need to put the camp fire out and back away from the flames. If you consider a post political—- report it
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My impression is that moderators respond mainly to complaints/alerts by other posters.


I know this not to be true. I wanted to counter the politics in this post http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...litical-and-what-is-not.html#Post2921263 and I wrote a reply, then posted, then deleted then reported the post for being political. Since the post is still very much there I am guessing if the politics of a post is what a moderator feels is just common sense then it just gets left to stand.

The UK is currently in political chaos, with a general election and whatnot. More than enough to keep everyone politically engrossed, who wants to be politically engrossed.

I really don't understand the compulsion for any Brit to get involved in politics in a non-British piano forum by reporting someone to get his post deleted (and presumably get him rebuked too). Personally, I don't care what political views people hold in PW.

Incidentally, in my workplace, no-one talks politics. People are just talking about what they're going to do at Christmas. BTW, I'm an atheist, but that's not going to stop me enjoying myself at a couple of posh Christmas dinners this week (where no-one will be talking politics) as well as taking part in a Christmas concert next week (where no-one will be talking politics, whatever happens in the election) where some of the music will be overtly religious (think Messiah).
Originally Posted by dogperson
You guys need to put the camp fire out and back away from the flames. If you consider a post political—- report it

OK. Backing away from the fire! 🙊
Originally Posted by dogperson
You guys need to put the camp fire out and back away from the flames. If you consider a post political—- report it


+1

Arguing about arguing about politics is kind of silly. Arguing about what constitutes "politics" is equally silly. This in part is why it's an impolite topic: people tend to passionately disagree.

Politics doesn't belong here. This is one of the last sites I know of that hasn't been torn apart by vitriolic politics.

Politics is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
Im not joining much this thread although i started it, because it's not easy to me to express myself in English fluently. But many people has already pointed what i wanted to say.

If you express right wing political views it is ok, is common sense, is acceptable, nothing happens.

If you go left, even if you just are replying to a previous comment just as i did, there it goes the "no politics please",

Well any justification (especially those based on the need of keeping the order) of deleting a political comments that you don't like while keeping the ones you like is in fact politics. Specifically a branch of politics called fascism.

Im not calling you fascist. But certainly this kind of attitude paves the way to it.
Snail, it seems like you just can't help but talk about politics. I must agree with the others who say that this topic shouldn't belong in a piano enthusiasts forum.
Originally Posted by Snail
Im not joining much this thread although i started it, because it's not easy to me to express myself in English fluently. But many people has already pointed what i wanted to say.

If you express right wing political views it is ok, is common sense, is acceptable, nothing happens.

If you go left, even if you just are replying to a previous comment just as i did, there it goes the "no politics please",

Well any justification (especially those based on the need of keeping the order) of deleting a political comments that you don't like while keeping the ones you like is in fact politics. Specifically a branch of politics called fascism.

Im not calling you fascist. But certainly this kind of attitude paves the way to it.


My advice, take it or not: the next time you see a political post, don't reply . Report it.
You’ve really made your position clear on this forum; let it go. Once was enough for it to be understood.
This thread is going downhill fast...
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
This thread is going downhill fast...


+1 Sadly it is.
Lets close this with the great Grigory Sokolov live in recital "Ich ruf zu dir""

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urp...fF9tV6gdytbb2NDkvmy&index=5&t=0s
This thread should die...

Rich
Originally Posted by Rich D.
This thread should die...

Rich



Agree!
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by Rich D.
This thread should die...

Rich



Agree!



It just did.
© Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums