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Ok, I would like your input on this. If you are looking at brand new acoustic pianos at full price but what if you can get the same piano cheaper that's been leased by the dealer to the colleges (say used for 1 year only)? ballet schools etc?
my concerns are: 1 how do you know how long they have been used for? (will the dealer have some document to show you the lase time) 2. how often the piano gets played per day? I imagine it would be played all day long by different people isn't it?
3. how much discount would you expect for a slightly used piano compared to the brand new one from a dealer? There might even be some light scratches from the usage.
am I better off getting a brand new one or taking a risk, looking at the pianos being used for 1 year and just check the sound and the hammers and take advantage of the discount?
I’m not sure where you’re located, but you’re writing as if there are only two options, new or used institutional. What about use, non-institutional?

Are you looking at specific pianos or is this all just hypothetical?
shiro
thanks, I have sales around me coming up seems tempting but unsure about its usage therefore not sure if its wise. I have no way of verifying how long the pianos have been used for and how often. so the situation is real. am either going to buy brand new or wonder if these sales are worth the risk.
Originally Posted by letsplayit
shiro
thanks, I have sales around me coming up seems tempting but unsure about its usage therefore not sure if its wise. I have no way of verifying how long the pianos have been used for and how often. so the situation is real. am either going to buy brand new or wonder if these sales are worth the risk.


It totally depends on the circumstances, letsplayit. If you are going to a liquidation of used pianos you must know what you are looking for, the history of the piano you are considering (how it was used and for how long - they will have it available), and what the market price of that piano is brand new.

So do your homework BEFORE going to the event.

Also, I have seen real deals offered at events like this, I have seen deals that were nothing special, and I seen deals that were rip offs. Again, do your homework before you go.
Letsplayit, one other thing re these kinds of sales: sometimes, they present the sales as a super limited time offer and they may use a lot of pressure to say that you have to purchase on the spot. I personally dislike that immensely.

The other thing, besides the pressure sales tactic, that I didn't like about the most recent institutional piano sale that was happening near me was the lack of information. It was a sale coordinated between a large university and a piano dealership, the first 3 days (IIRC) of the sale were by appointment only, and the last day would be open. So, first of all, if someone went at the beginning of the sale and saw the pianos first, that person would have first pick, and knowing that there were other people with appointments scheduled after you would be a lot of pressure to commit to a purchase right away.

Second, when I contacted them to make an appointment, they couldn't (or wouldn't) give me any useful information about what pianos would be available. They told me the names of brands they would have, but wouldn't tell me the models/sizes of the grands, no information about the age of the pianos, serial numbers etc. Ultimately I decided not to even go, besides the fact that it was a 2+ hour drive one way, I knew I wouldn't want to make a decision on the spot, and I didn't want to buy a piano that I could only test out once (in one sitting).

So, back to your situation, Letsplayit -- because at this point, I'm just complaining about my experience! whome

Here is my advice to you:
1) Before you go to the sale, get as much info as you can about the pianos available in the institutional sale. At the very least, brands, models and sizes. They probably won't want to tell you the prices they're offering.

2) then, to give you some comparison points, go to PianoMart.com and find some similar pianos (hopefully same brand and model) and write down the price *and* the age of those pianos, so you have a comparison.

3) if you haven't already, google some YouTube videos about how to evaluate used grands (or uprights, what are you shopping for?)

4) then, while you are evaluating the pianos, be prepared to google the age of the pianos (based on serial number) so you can at least see how old they are.

5) for any piano you are interested in, ask the salesperson to pull out the action so you can visually inspect the action, the hammers etc.

Ok, I'll stop, maybe this is overkill.

So back to your original question about which option would be better, if you're looking for a good piano at a reasonable price, just in terms of cost performance, IMO the best route is to either buy a used piano (non-institutional) from a reputable piano dealer, or find a used piano from a private seller. Work with an independent tech who will evaluate the piano for you once you've narrowed it down to one or two instruments, and you don't have to worry about the risk that you're concerned with for the institutional pianos.

Either way, good luck and keep us posted!
Not sure if this happens in your area, but the dealer by me has a sale once a year with the local college where they sell both new and the college's used pianos. It was held in the school auditorium and you could spend hours moving from one piano to the next trying them all out. They were all tuned before the event, so it was a nice opportunity to be able to play a lot of pianos that were in comparable condition.
Many of these "Event" sales, (as they are sometimes called in the piano industry), sell at prices higher than what you could buy them for in the showroom. Often very few of the pianos offered were used by the school listed as "Host". I have even seen other dealers used pianos "borrowed" for the event to broaden the inventory.

When the sales occur as College/University music schools, some shoppers actually think the schools Piano Technicians have "vetted" the pianos.

I do wonder if the Schools holding these might end up liable in a fraud case sometime. And if their status as non-profit entities could be challenged.

Remember a salesperson job is to hide the true price and create a reason for you to buy today.
I recently went through this thought process when buying my first piano. After churning through all of the options and all of the uncertainty surrounding the vague descriptions I decided to spend the extra couple of grand and buy new which means a 10 year warranty also.

Peace of mind is more important to me than saving some bucks.
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Many of these "Event" sales, (as they are sometimes called in the piano industry), sell at prices higher than what you could buy them for in the showroom. Often very few of the pianos offered were used by the school listed as "Host". I have even seen other dealers used pianos "borrowed" for the event to broaden the inventory.

When the sales occur as College/University music schools, some shoppers actually think the schools Piano Technicians have "vetted" the pianos.

I do wonder if the Schools holding these might end up liable in a fraud case sometime. And if their status as non-profit entities could be challenged.

Remember a salesperson job is to hide the true price and create a reason for you to buy today.


I saw this in person at a University where I worked in the IT department. I used to go to the (very small) music department to practice at lunch. They had 3 grands and a few uprights. A couple of weeks before the university sale trucks started arriving with pianos. Every free space in the building was crammed with them - someone was trying to unload some excess inventory...

Sam
Originally Posted by PianoWVBob
I recently went through this thought process when buying my first piano. After churning through all of the options and all of the uncertainty surrounding the vague descriptions I decided to spend the extra couple of grand and buy new which means a 10 year warranty also.

Peace of mind is more important to me than saving some bucks.


Buying new is great for those who can afford it. However, I personally would never have been able to buy this grand piano if my only option were to purchase it new -- because new, this piano is probably 3 or 4 times what I paid for it used.

I am only saying this to say, 1) buying a used piano is a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and 2) it *is* possible (and common in fact!) to buy a used piano without feeling like you're taking a huge risk. And for those who want a warranty, a reputable dealer will offer a warranty on the used pianos they sell.

With all due respect to the OP, I really don't understand why you are treating this as if used-institutional or new are your only options. A used piano that's been sitting in someone's home for 20 years or less has generally been used much, much less than a school piano, and most of the time will need minimal (if any) work beyond tuning. Even if you pay for regulation and voicing, that still gets you a great piano for much less than a new one, without the beating that school pianos get. In most markets, there are people downsizing and selling very nice pianos for very reasonable prices.

Ok, I'll stop! I'm not trying to start an argument!
used piano owners unite
whome
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT


Remember a salesperson job is to hide the true price and create a reason for you to buy today.


Ouch. Right in the feels, man.
The best deal is from a private sale when people are moving out and need to get rid of their piano.
]
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT


Remember a salesperson job is to hide the true price and create a reason for you to buy today.


So what is your cynical view of piano restorers: to convince buyers that new piano quality is horrible and that any used piano requires restoration?

I am not in the piano business but I find this statement about salesmen from someone who is in the piano business himself unwarranted and demeaning. There are honest, skilled people in all facets.
thanks for the detailed advice. I pm's you.
😊
uote=ShiroKuro]Letsplayit, one other thing re these kinds of sales: sometimes, they present the sales as a super limited time offer and they may use a lot of pressure to say that you have to purchase on the spot. I personally dislike that immensely.

The other thing, besides the pressure sales tactic, that I didn't like about the most recent institutional piano sale that was happening near me was the lack of information. It was a sale coordinated between a large university and a piano dealership, the first 3 days (IIRC) of the sale were by appointment only, and the last day would be open. So, first of all, if someone went at the beginning of the sale and saw the pianos first, that person would have first pick, and knowing that there were other people with appointments scheduled after you would be a lot of pressure to commit to a purchase right away.

Second, when I contacted them to make an appointment, they couldn't (or wouldn't) give me any useful information about what pianos would be available. They told me the names of brands they would have, but wouldn't tell me the models/sizes of the grands, no information about the age of the pianos, serial numbers etc. Ultimately I decided not to even go, besides the fact that it was a 2+ hour drive one way, I knew I wouldn't want to make a decision on the spot, and I didn't want to buy a piano that I could only test out once (in one sitting).

So, back to your situation, Letsplayit -- because at this point, I'm just complaining about my experience! whome

Here is my advice to you:
1) Before you go to the sale, get as much info as you can about the pianos available in the institutional sale. At the very least, brands, models and sizes. They probably won't want to tell you the prices they're offering.

2) then, to give you some comparison points, go to PianoMart.com and find some similar pianos (hopefully same brand and model) and write down the price *and* the age of those pianos, so you have a comparison.

3) if you haven't already, google some YouTube videos about how to evaluate used grands (or uprights, what are you shopping for?)

4) then, while you are evaluating the pianos, be prepared to google the age of the pianos (based on serial number) so you can at least see how old they are.

5) for any piano you are interested in, ask the salesperson to pull out the action so you can visually inspect the action, the hammers etc.

Ok, I'll stop, maybe this is overkill.

So back to your original question about which option would be better, if you're looking for a good piano at a reasonable price, just in terms of cost performance, IMO the best route is to either buy a used piano (non-institutional) from a reputable piano dealer, or find a used piano from a private seller. Work with an independent tech who will evaluate the piano for you once you've narrowed it down to one or two instruments, and you don't have to worry about the risk that you're concerned with for the institutional pianos.

Either way, good luck and keep us posted![/quote]
Let'sPlayIt,
Do not expose yourself to uneeded pressure when buying a piano.
Stay clear of any dealer( whether new pianos ,rebuilt or used)that
cause you stress,spread rumours or try to insist on you making up
your mind too soon about an instrument.
Take your time, try the piano (and others )a number of times.
If there is a piano you really like and the sales person starts talking
negatively about a different dealer, ignor or do what I once did ,play
a loud discordant chord ?(not sure if that worked however ?)
Just focus on the piano you like and how much you want to spend.
I have had one sole experience with a "college" piano sale, but it was far from a pleasant one. That said, your experience may be entirely different; just be warned that this is one possible scenario.

Dozens of pianos of various makes were all assembled in one room, and while I "noodled" on some momentarily, the cacophony was such with so many others doing the same that it was impossible to make any judgment of any of the instruments I was trying.

I was pressured by a salesman to state my choice and when I said it wasn't possible to do so under the circumstances I was asked - not very politely - to leave and stop wasting time!

Regards,
Originally Posted by BruceD
I have had one sole experience with a "college" piano sale, but it was far from a pleasant one. That said, your experience may be entirely different; just be warned that this is one possible scenario.

Dozens of pianos of various makes were all assembled in one room, and while I "noodled" on some momentarily, the cacophony was such with so many others doing the same that it was impossible to make any judgment of any of the instruments I was trying.

I was pressured by a salesman to state my choice and when I said it wasn't possible to do so under the circumstances I was asked - not very politely - to leave and stop wasting time!

Regards,




What a rotten experience and rotten salesman!
Originally Posted by BruceD
I have had one sole experience with a "college" piano sale, but it was far from a pleasant one. That said, your experience may be entirely different; just be warned that this is one possible scenario.

Dozens of pianos of various makes were all assembled in one room, and while I "noodled" on some momentarily, the cacophony was such with so many others doing the same that it was impossible to make any judgment of any of the instruments I was trying.

I was pressured by a salesman to state my choice and when I said it wasn't possible to do so under the circumstances I was asked - not very politely - to leave and stop wasting time!

Regards,


Yes amazing rudeness and lack of sensitivity !
dogperson, So why is my statement cynical?

I don't sell any new pianos because they all have significant engineering and production problems that make them less durable over the long term than my rebuilds and new pianos don't sound or play as well as my rebuilds.
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
dogperson, So why is my statement cynical?

I don't sell any new pianos because they all have significant engineering and production problems that make them less durable over the long term than my rebuilds and new pianos don't sound or play as well as my rebuilds.


Ed,

You sell and rebuild pianos. If I had a dime for each time you bragged about how great a job you did on rebuilding pianos I could afford to buy one of them. It seems as if EVERY post you make is an ad for your business in some way. I suggest you buy advertising from Frank and do all the bragging about yourself in the ads. If you can't resist the urge then I will help you.
Originally Posted by Ken Knapp
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
dogperson, So why is my statement cynical?

I don't sell any new pianos because they all have significant engineering and production problems that make them less durable over the long term than my rebuilds and new pianos don't sound or play as well as my rebuilds.


Ed,

You sell and rebuild pianos. If I had a dime for each time you bragged about how great a job you did on rebuilding pianos I could afford to buy one of them. It seems as if EVERY post you make is an ad for your business in some way. I suggest you buy advertising from Frank and do all the bragging about yourself in the ads. If you can't resist the urge then I will help you.


FWIW, I did not find Ed's reply offensive. His initial post, to which dogperson was replying, contained many reasonable assertions about these questionable sales practices. I found them wrthy of consideration. More importantly, I did not see them as self promotion.

Although Ed did later speak about or assert the relative superiority of his product, he did so only after dogperson questioned Ed on his beliefs and views on the credibility of rebuilders. It seems to me that Ed's reply to dogperson was appropriate under the circumstances.

Ed offers a lot to this forum, most of which is clearly not self promotional. And that which might draw close to serving any such purpose, typically is offered in the context of legitimate piano discourse.

I think it is important to recognize, and accept, that Ed has devoted much of his life to the improvement of the piano. Along the way, he has developed many worthy ideas that put him in opposition to piano orthodoxy, and, in conflict with those positioned to profit from stifling piano evolution. I, for one, am glad to hear his views, and I hope this forum takes and keeps a neutral position in that tug of war. I think we all benefit.

Carry on.
PianoW, yes peace of mind means more to me too. but with the type of college sales, am pretty sure they all come with 10yrs warrantee from the manufacturer, and the event is jointly done with the manufacturer. would this mean different and have more credibility than just a college sale?
Originally Posted by letsplayit
Ok, I would like your input on this. If you are looking at brand new acoustic pianos at full price but what if you can get the same piano cheaper that's been leased by the dealer to the colleges (say used for 1 year only)? ballet schools etc?
my concerns are: 1 how do you know how long they have been used for? (will the dealer have some document to show you the lase time) 2. how often the piano gets played per day? I imagine it would be played all day long by different people isn't it?
3. how much discount would you expect for a slightly used piano compared to the brand new one from a dealer? There might even be some light scratches from the usage.
am I better off getting a brand new one or taking a risk, looking at the pianos being used for 1 year and just check the sound and the hammers and take advantage of the discount?


As has already been mentioned, the college/university sale environment is typically high-pressure, with additional salespeople coming in from out of town to "close deals". When I have observed them, lots of other pianos that weren't loaned to the institution are trucked in for sale as well, from either the local dealer or who knows were? The only way you're going to know how a particular instrument was used would be to talk to the hosting institution's piano technician, or a faculty member who might have paid attention to what piano was in what room. I would not tend to trust what you hear on the sales floor, as these folks tend to have no contact with the institution's facuty/support staff except at higher, administrative levels. I've seen loan program pianos placed in practice rooms, classrooms, rehearsal rooms, faculty offices, and even concert halls. There's a fairly big difference in usage and maintenance between these environments.

Loan program pianos often do have the full manufacturer's warranty because the pianos haven't been sold yet, they've just been loaned out. I have no evidence that you're in for a better deal in this environment than if you just showed up at the local piano dealer's brick and mortar store. No special prep typically takes place with college/university sale pianos, they are sometimes put in environments that are conducive to listening critically (hallways, etc.), and the focus is on creating a sense of urgency and making a quick sale, which may preclude your being able to bring in an independent technician to inspect the piano onsite.
Ken, I would love to show you my work so you could experience pianos with state of the art configurations. You don't have to buy one.

It has cost me plenty to do the research I have done, so if that makes me pushy sounding because I am proud of my accomplishments; I am sorry it offends your sensibilities.

The reason I push my findings is I know that the very survival of the art of fine pianos is at stake in our current market. If the industry can't find a way to make new pianos that are more durable when used as musical instruments than the current crop is; the cost of ownership becomes ridiculous over time for any serious pianist.
One of my local stores does a "college sale." I'll give them this, they are honest in their advertising that there is a limited selection of institutional loaner pianos for sale and there will be others shipped there for the sale. The university they sell them at uses the loaners for their concert hall, and probably a few other things. The more "honestly institutional" pianos that were used in practice rooms wind up for sale on their surplus site when their time is over.
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Ken, I would love to show you my work so you could experience pianos with state of the art configurations. You don't have to buy one.

It has cost me plenty to do the research I have done, so if that makes me pushy sounding because I am proud of my accomplishments; I am sorry it offends your sensibilities.

The reason I push my findings is I know that the very survival of the art of fine pianos is at stake in our current market. If the industry can't find a way to make new pianos that are more durable when used as musical instruments than the current crop is; the cost of ownership becomes ridiculous over time for any serious pianist.


How long then do you see all these different pianos lasting ----American, Japanese, European and Chinese ? I mean has the modern piano really gone this bad ?
Ed I am just interested .,if what you say is bad, I probably will not take it all in.,then again I myself am NOT going last another 40 years unless I break records in longevity !
That will be some comfort, I suppose ??? .,will it ?
A typical piano will last 2 to 3 times as long as the typical user's interest, which is generally about 12 years, the time the child is 6 until 18. Some will go on longer, and many will not last that long. There are a few people who will use a piano for more than 35-40 years, but they might start with a lower quality piano and switch to a better one, so even those pianists will not tax the lifetime of decent pianos.
I appreciate all piano technicians like BDB and Ed. But I have noticed this
aspect about rebuilders ,I do not know how to say it ?
Perhaps it is the re creation thing ,aiming to rebuild what was made so well originally, or to
perfect well made pianos for the better ?
It must be difficult to disconnect? I hope they visit very good piano manufactures as part of the process !
I prefer a vintage piano in very good condition to a modern piano. If I had room for a grand currently without sacrificing other current use of space, my preferred instrument would be a Knabe or Steinway grand from the 1920’s (or also 1950’s if Steinway). I don’t think a $20K new upright would particularly improve on the 107-year-old one I have now, although a 52” upright might have more convincing vowel tones in the bass.
have some questions for you. pm d
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Ken, I would love to show you my work so you could experience pianos with state of the art configurations. You don't have to buy one.

It has cost me plenty to do the research I have done, so if that makes me pushy sounding because I am proud of my accomplishments; I am sorry it offends your sensibilities.

The reason I push my findings is I know that the very survival of the art of fine pianos is at stake in our current market. If the industry can't find a way to make new pianos that are more durable when used as musical instruments than the current crop is; the cost of ownership becomes ridiculous over time for any serious pianist.


How long then do you see all these different pianos lasting ----American, Japanese, European and Chinese ? I mean has the modern piano really gone this bad ?
Ed I am just interested .,if what you say is bad, I probably will not take it all in.,then again I myself am NOT going last another 40 years unless I break records in longevity !
That will be some comfort, I suppose ??? .,will it ?


Some valid questions. I am curious as well. And I will not last another 40 years unless I shatter my family record.
BDB, Very interesting as I haven't heard ot before how long would you regard the average playing time per day on those you mentioned typical pianos with 12 years playing? I do know most of dealers will come tell me a 40 year old piano is still very young. which I don't believe. however am curious to know how heavily a puano being used by a certain type of audience? private? colleges or ballet schools? if the piano is relatively new, say under a few years then wouldn't checking the hammer tell you how often the piano is being used? thsnks
Originally Posted by Serge88
The best deal is from a private sale when people are moving out and need to get rid of their piano.


This is exactly right and how I scored my piano for such a great deal. It's one of those times when patience truly pays for itself.
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Originally Posted by Serge88
The best deal is from a private sale when people are moving out and need to get rid of their piano.


This is exactly right and how I scored my piano for such a great deal. It's one of those times when patience truly pays for itself.



That is the key - patience!
Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Originally Posted by Serge88
The best deal is from a private sale when people are moving out and need to get rid of their piano.


This is exactly right and how I scored my piano for such a great deal. It's one of those times when patience truly pays for itself.



That is the key - patience!
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I prefer a vintage piano in very good condition to a modern piano. If I had room for a grand currently without sacrificing other current use of space, my preferred instrument would be a Knabe or Steinway grand from the 1920’s (or also 1950’s if Steinway). I don’t think a $20K new upright would particularly improve on the 107-year-old one I have now, although a 52” upright might have more convincing vowel tones in the bass.

Just the bass ? In the best uprights the sustain in the treble as well as the bass are amazing.A single note in the high treble lasts far longer than in other uprights.You can try this by counting the seconds a single note lasts in the high treble.When single notes sing out for a long period in the treble with a beautiful full round sound in the bass.All this with a quick sensitive response is what makes these uprights ideal.The price of these pianos is usually high.For us without deep pockets (hate that expression )this was a huge price !
However we both love that piano.Whatever you do choose please listen carefully !
By the way do not use the pedal when trying the resonance of single notes on an upright.

Originally Posted by NobleHouse


That is the key - patience!


Good advice. I think a lot of the cynicism I have read in this thread surrounding these college sales is from people who have felt pressured to buy an instrument they didn't really want for a price they really weren't all that excited about. You might go to a college sale and find something you really like for a great price, and snatch it up (obviously a lot of people do or they wouldn't have these sales). But you shouldn't be disappointed if what you find isn't exactly what you're looking for - you'll find it.
Originally Posted by Geusey
Originally Posted by NobleHouse


That is the key - patience!


Good advice. I think a lot of the cynicism I have read in this thread surrounding these college sales is from people who have felt pressured to buy an instrument they didn't really want for a price they really weren't all that excited about. You might go to a college sale and find something you really like for a great price, and snatch it up (obviously a lot of people do or they wouldn't have these sales). But you shouldn't be disappointed if what you find isn't exactly what you're looking for - you'll find it.
Cynic alert. I think those types of sales continue because there is a reservoir of naive people--who have done no homework--out looking for a piano who actually do buy them. There are exceptions, of course, but by-and-large these pianos are sold to people who haven't informed themselves at all about pianos.
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Cynic alert. I think those types of sales continue because there is a reservoir of naive people--who have done no homework--out looking for a piano who actually do buy them. There are exceptions, of course, but by-and-large these pianos are sold to people who haven't informed themselves at all about pianos.


Fair. I think what I'm getting at is that there's nothing inherently wrong with the sale format itself, but the dishonesty that is commonly associated with them. If there is any obfuscation about which pianos are used and which are new, that is a huge red flag that shouldn't be ignored.

Still, I know I'm kind of a newcomer to this industry, but it disappoints me how much cynicism there is towards dealers by the piano community. Recently, I read a thread on this forum lamenting the decline in piano sales in the US over the last century, but that attitude immediately changes to contempt when talking about the ones who are doing the actual selling. I, for one, really like when a dealer goes out and does some marketing to try and grow the market and increase their business, as long as this is done with integrity. It raises the overall musical awareness in the community, which is good for everybody.
Quote

Just the bass ? In the best uprights the sustain in the treble as well as the bass are amazing.

The sustain in the treble is phenomenal on my piano. The bass is more than adequate for a home instrument. That’s why a new upright with a $20K or lower list price generally would be a downgrade for me. Even a 52” Schimmel Konzert series upright (TOTL Schimmel upright) had less treble sustain when I tried one.

I have played fairly recent year Bosendorfer and Grotrian uprights that I preferred to my piano and a restored vintage Mason & Hamlin vertical that I preferred. I would have purchased the M&H but someone else already had a deposit placed to hold it. I’ve never played a vertical from Bechstein, Bluthner, Steingraeber, or Seiler, but assume they would be very good.

But ability to play in a sonorous, bel canto style or get contrasting tonal colors is typically a strength of many vintage pianos over many modern pianos, as long as the soundboard has retained its crown and the instrument is in good condition.
The OP is not wanting to spend this much.I agree if one
can find a very good used upright like your's Sweelinck
that would be great but these may be difficult to find.
Otherwise a K300 or U1 one are great for someone the
OP's level.
However a U3 or K500 have longer strings, bigger soundboards
So finding a way to get one of these ,used or new would
be great !
Originally Posted by Geusey
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Cynic alert. I think those types of sales continue because there is a reservoir of naive people--who have done no homework--out looking for a piano who actually do buy them. There are exceptions, of course, but by-and-large these pianos are sold to people who haven't informed themselves at all about pianos.


Fair. I think what I'm getting at is that there's nothing inherently wrong with the sale format itself, but the dishonesty that is commonly associated with them. If there is any obfuscation about which pianos are used and which are new, that is a huge red flag that shouldn't be ignored.

Still, I know I'm kind of a newcomer to this industry, but it disappoints me how much cynicism there is towards dealers by the piano community. Recently, I read a thread on this forum lamenting the decline in piano sales in the US over the last century, but that attitude immediately changes to contempt when talking about the ones who are doing the actual selling. I, for one, really like when a dealer goes out and does some marketing to try and grow the market and increase their business, as long as this is done with integrity. It raises the overall musical awareness in the community, which is good for everybody.


Regarding these so-called college/institution sales. They are almost all bogus, and most of us know it. They typically haul in pianos from some warehouse without telling the buyer that these pianos are mixed in with actual pianos from the institution in question...if the sale even includes any pianos from the institution. Who knows? Then there are the high-pressure sales tactics. Ugh. Even if the college or institution was selling only their own used pianos, the question remains why anyone would want a beat-up piano from a practice room or rehearsal space. Of course the people who go to these sales are not, as a rule, educated piano buyers but naives who think they are getting a deal when they are getting junk.

Sorry, Justin, but the skepticism and cynicism about piano dealers is well earned. It used to be the same with car dealers, but now anyone can find what is considered a fair price for a new or used car online, then present that to the dealer who almost always accepts it. We know what the car dealer likely paid for the vehicle, what the "hidden" fees are and how to avoid them, what kick-backs they may be getting from the manufacturer, etc.

There is no such help with pianos, so of course we are skeptical of piano dealers. For instance, Portland Pianos does not provide the price of any of their used piano inventory online. This forces people to call or email you...or come into the store. I understand you want people to come in (so you can "sell" them), but why not be up front about your prices? Just one example of why you see cynicism. The industry is anything but transparent, so of course we are suspicious...and should be. It may be that Portland Pianos is a fine dealership, but that's hard to tell when prices are obscured from the get-go. That doesn't encourage trust.

So all we can do as piano buyers is go to dealerships and try to get a sense of how honest and forthright the dealer is. Does the store look neat and tidy or junky? Are the pianos well prepped (at least tuned)? Does the sales person leave you alone to play or does he/she hover and keep talking? Does the dealer try to guide you toward a specific brand or piano (i.e., are they trying to maximize their profit by "guiding" you to pianos on which they stand to make the most profit)? If you say you want a technician to check out the piano, do they offer you to a technician they "know" who will do it for free? If you say you want to look at a specific size of instrument, do they try to up-sell or down-sell to a different size (i.e., clearing inventory)? Do they tell you that a piano you like has other people interested in it (so you had better act fast)? Do you see any actual technicians in the store, because at good dealerships they are there almost all the time, prepping pianos. Will the sales person let you talk to the technicians? Etc., etc, and so forth.

Look, we all understand that dealers need to sell pianos at a profit to stay in business. No one is begrudging them that. But for heaven's sake be forthright with customers and stop the sleazy sales crap.
Originally Posted by Geusey
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Cynic alert. I think those types of sales continue because there is a reservoir of naive people--who have done no homework--out looking for a piano who actually do buy them. There are exceptions, of course, but by-and-large these pianos are sold to people who haven't informed themselves at all about pianos.


Fair. I think what I'm getting at is that there's nothing inherently wrong with the sale format itself, but the dishonesty that is commonly associated with them. If there is any obfuscation about which pianos are used and which are new, that is a huge red flag that shouldn't be ignored.

Still, I know I'm kind of a newcomer to this industry, but it disappoints me how much cynicism there is towards dealers by the piano community. Recently, I read a thread on this forum lamenting the decline in piano sales in the US over the last century, but that attitude immediately changes to contempt when talking about the ones who are doing the actual selling. I, for one, really like when a dealer goes out and does some marketing to try and grow the market and increase their business, as long as this is done with integrity. It raises the overall musical awareness in the community, which is good for everybody.
For certain there are good, honest dealers and there are not so good, not so honest dealers. Same as in any industry selling to the public. The buying public needs to do some homework so they can be informed shoppers. The good dealers will have no problem dealing with these informed buyers. In this day and age, anyone who doesn't hop online and do some research (maybe landing here on PW and maybe venturing into the Piano Buyer's Guide) is just not trying.
Originally Posted by Stubbie
In this day and age, anyone who doesn't hop online and do some research (maybe landing here on PW and maybe venturing into the Piano Buyer's Guide) is just not trying.


Yeah, that's definitely true. There's so much info available online I don't see how anyone could make that kind of purchase totally uninformed.

Originally Posted by AaronSF
Look, we all understand that dealers need to sell pianos at a profit to stay in business. No one is begrudging them that. But for heaven's sake be forthright with customers and stop the sleazy sales crap


That's exactly what I mean. It's a shame that the industry has (probably rightfully) earned that reputation. I guess I shouldn't complain, it does work in my favor. As you pointed out, its not that hard to figure out who the good guys are. Especially in the age of online reviews where you can compare notes with other shoppers and see what their experiences are, word gets around when you stand out by treating people right.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The OP is not wanting to spend this much.I agree if one
can find a very good used upright like your's Sweelinck
that would be great but these may be difficult to find.
Otherwise a K300 or U1 one are great for someone the
OP's level.
However a U3 or K500 have longer strings, bigger soundboards
So finding a way to get one of these ,used or new would
be great !

If the alternative is a U1 or K300, I think it is worth looking at some vintage instruments. I might even prefer a Baldwin Acrosonic spinet to a K300 or U1. The shorter keys would be my main issue with one, but they usually have lovely treble tone. Matching or exceeding the quality of a U3 or K500 with a vintage upright would take longer to find it, but that also can be done.
You would take a vintage spinet over a U1 or a K300 ? I think you are either a Romantic
(which is fine)I like some older pianos as well., but a spinet no !
This idea that new Japanese uprights are no good however is incorrect ! I do like your
Idealism Sweelinck,and can relate to it myself in my own search. I had 3 uprights in the
course of a few months.Two were returned, the 3rd one stayed .
I started my own music as a kid with a pre war Seiler, yes it sang but the key resistance was
"slack" but not bad ! (It was even and responsive)Later I needed something with a better action and my parents bought a Kawai grand.
The OP sounds like more or less a beginner and really needs an upright with a good action.
That is important .An old upright with an unequal action needs to be avoided .
A good newer upright piano will provide something for the OP to develop thier technique on.
I am not saying it is not possible with an old upright, but the piano needs to be even and responsive.
I think it is easier to make a mistake with an older upright !
A spinet is no good for developing good tone quality !
I would think a Schimmel 130 Konzert would have a great tone ! I have not tried one ,but yes I cannot
imagine that Schimmel has taken a " nose dive" just because it is owned by PR !
They still make these in Germany do they not !
Boston uprights have a mellow tone but I may as well be talking about the" man in the moon " "Boston pianos "do not seem to have a face ? They should change the name to something else perhaps? They are quite highly priced for a piano on the same level as the Kawai or Yamaha uprights.
I went to a big piano sale about 20 years ago. It wasn't in a school though; it was in the local national guard armory, so I'm pretty sure they were trucked in from elsewhere! wink Anyway, I was looking at some studio uprights, and the "sales guy" turned out to be a guy I knew from college choir a couple years earlier. So, I thought it was no problem, no pressure etc, and I told him I was just looking. Well, the next thing you know, he turned up again with "the closer." I decided to just keep playing, and they wandered off in search of their next victims.
Quote

You would take a vintage spinet over a U1 or a K300 ?

Not generally, but a Baldwin Acrosonic, potentially yes. Have you ever played one?
With regard to university piano sales, I’m pretty sure that having the university and its music dept lend their name to an annual piano sale to be held at a provided university facility is part of the lease agreement between the university and piano dealer/distributor, and enables the university to get a more attractive price on the lease. That the pianos used by the university are part of the sale is almost incidental, other than creating an aura of authority, that a buyer is purported to be getting an instrument that was selected by university music faculty.
Quote

I am not saying it is not possible with an old upright, but the piano needs to be even and responsive.

Absolutely. I would not have a piano where that was not the case.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I would think a Schimmel 130 Konzert would have a great tone ! I have not tried one ,but yes I cannot
imagine that Schimmel has taken a " nose dive" just because it is owned by PR !
They still make these in Germany do they not !

Not sure when Pearl River bought them but I think the one I tried was from before the PR acquisition. These instruments have a very unique action, a kind of manufactured feel to them, only way I can describe it. You probably will either love the action or hate it. I found it very smooth. But the high end sustain was just average on the piano I played. It was not on par with the Bosendorfer or Grotrian verticals that I also tried. I likely would prefer a YUS5 or K800 to any Schimmel upright
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote

You would take a vintage spinet over a U1 or a K300 ?

Not generally, but a Baldwin Acrosonic, potentially yes. Have you ever played one?


The largest Acrosonic is 42.5” vs 48” for a U1. Perhaps I should have said console instead of spinet, but I generally lump those two categories together.
No I have not ever played a console Acrosonic or heard one ,yet I have read that quite a few PW members have had one of these to practice on .I have also heard that yes they were really good.
Baldwin must have been a remarkable manufacturer making wonderful grands and uprights like
these.
I am not from Canada originally but I presume a few of these are still around ?
Tons of them are still around.

Here's the best sounding Acrosonic I've been able to find on youtube. The vast majority of Acrosonics showcased on youtube are much brighter and usually out of tune. Of course, some of those date back to the 1940s and probably have had little to no work done on them. smile

https://youtu.be/WFNt15GpKRU
In my search for a piano recently, I came across a used Baldwin (not Acrosonic) but maybe 45-46”? Didn’t seem too tall but not a spinet either. The sound was big bold and beautiful. Too bad I didn’t like the look of it though.

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.

I ended up with the tried and true, can’t make a mistake with it K500.
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
In my search for a piano recently, I came across a used Baldwin (not Acrosonic) but maybe 45-46”? Didn’t seem too tall but not a spinet either. The sound was big bold and beautiful. Too bad I didn’t like the look of it though.

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.

I ended up with the tried and true, can’t make a mistake with it K500.


So you ultimately bought a K500 ???? Guess I missed that.
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
In my search for a piano recently, I came across a used Baldwin (not Acrosonic) but maybe 45-46”? Didn’t seem too tall but not a spinet either. The sound was big bold and beautiful. Too bad I didn’t like the look of it though.

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.

I ended up with the tried and true, can’t make a mistake with it K500.


So you ultimately bought a K500 ???? Guess I missed that.



Yes I did! I announced it in one of the threads but I guess it was inconspicuous. I think it’s the safest choice for me.

I see you have one too. wink

It’s not here yet but that’s because my husband needs to fix the piano room first so we can give it a proper welcome. grin
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.


It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
No I have not ever played a console Acrosonic or heard one ,yet I have read that quite a few PW members have had one of these to practice on .I have also heard that yes they were really good.


I would characterize them as "less bad" rather than "really good" when it comes to console designs and executions.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.


It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.


I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
In my search for a piano recently, I came across a used Baldwin (not Acrosonic) but maybe 45-46”? Didn’t seem too tall but not a spinet either. The sound was big bold and beautiful. Too bad I didn’t like the look of it though.

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.

I ended up with the tried and true, can’t make a mistake with it K500.


So you ultimately bought a K500 ???? Guess I missed that.



Yes I did! I announced it in one of the threads but I guess it was inconspicuous. I think it’s the safest choice for me.

I see you have one too. wink

It’s not here yet but that’s because my husband needs to fix the piano room first so we can give it a proper welcome. grin
Great news !! Good choice !! Congratulations !! thumb
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.
It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.
I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.
Yes - definitely Renner - on both brands. smile Did you audition Schimmel grands as well as uprights?
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.
It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.
I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.
Yes - definitely Renner - on both brands. smile Did you audition Schimmel grands as well as uprights?


The store I went to only had Schimmel grands...and Estonia’s and Bosies. Maybe next time I’ll be a customer of that store.
Originally Posted by Carey
Tons of them are still around.

Here's the best sounding Acrosonic I've been able to find on youtube. The vast majority of Acrosonics showcased on youtube are much brighter and usually out of tune. Of course, some of those date back to the 1940s and probably have had little to no work done on them. smile

https://youtu.be/WFNt15GpKRU



That sounded surprisingly good!
Acrosonics turn up on Craigslist pretty regularly in my area.

It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers. [/quote]

I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.
[/quote]
Congratulations I am really glad you are getting a K500 ,good piano.What was wrong with " feel "of the Schimmel grand ? I tried a 130 Classic series but I could not hear properly as someone was tuning a piano in the store.The action seemed fine however !
Why would anyone regard Schimmel has more snob appeal than Estonia? Both are high end European pianos !
As you would find in Europe ,Schimmel is tried and trusted just as Kawai(and Schimmel ) are here.Yet even in Paris I remember seeing both of these.(Yamaha as well )
I do not find art or music on a particularly "high platform" in Canada however !!!
Saying this I shall not go as far as the Russian manager of a high end piano store in Vancouver who said "if Canadians ""Get!""ice hockey they will ""Get "" music ?" That was sort of insulting (but true to a degree ) to even me who has been in Canada only 20 yrs, and therfore think of myself as Canadian

Sorry I could not get the quote feature to work. The 2 quotes are from WeakLeftHand and terminaldegree.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.


It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.


It was very different from the Renner action in Bosendorfer and Grotrian uprights I’ve also played.
Acrosonics came in 36” (true spinet), 40”, and 42.5”. The 36” had the highest sales volume and is the most common today on the used market. All three models had excellent treble tone, better than a U1 or K300 in my opinion. Bass would be less beefy than a U1 or K300 with the shorter soundboard, and overall volume would also be less. But one in good regulation, with hammers in good condition and well voiced, would be an excellent piano for a beginning piano student. The sound will not dominate an entire house when practicing. The piano could be in a music room with door closed and not be as disturbing to others as one example of the tradeoff vs a full upright.

Baldwin full uprights were excellent pianos. They are usually early 20th century as at some point Baldwin switched to using the Hamilton brand label for their full uprights. Hamilton uprights also were excellent. Later Hamilton studio consoles from the 1980’s in good shape would also be a reasonable instrument for a beginning student.

Vintage European uprights are uncommon in the US, so I’ve only seen a couple— a Pleyel that was a nice piano and a Broadwood with a to be avoided birdcage action.

The only vintage US uprights that fetch a significant premium on the used market today are Mason & Hamlin and Steinway. Knabe and Chickering uprights are fine, but not really better than many less famous brands, so I would not pay a premium for one. Some other brands that I think were good: Schulz, A.B. Chase, McPhail, Cable, Brinkerhoff, Sohmer, in addition to already listed Baldwin, Hamilton, Knabe, Chickering. (Mason & Hamlin and Steinway are very good but will be pricey. I’m not a big fan of Steinway uprights, but others like them).

The problem with vintage uprights today is that they are no longer worth enough in today’s soft used piano market to justify rebuilding them. You have to find one where the hammers and strings are in good shape, the soundboard still has its crown (good high end tone), and the pin block is good. An evaluation by a piano technician would be a good idea to verify those things.

Addressing evenness of action and tone if needed can be done after purchase by a piano technician replacing jack/repetition springs if necessary, and regulating and voicing the piano. Overall cost will be significantly less than a used U1 or K300, and they would also need to be evaluated by a piano tech for condition.

If there is a local dealer that sells a good inventory of used uprights that they have evaluated and prepped, that is a good resource for a beginning piano student.
Yes perhaps that Pleyel was made buy Schimmel? But yes here too.Very few European pianos end up in CL ?No one here know much about brands except Canadian oldies, Yamaha and a few American pianos like Steinways and Baldwin.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
All three models had excellent treble tone, better than a U1 or K300 in my opinion.


I'm sort of curious how many recent U1 or K300 pianos you've actually played.
36" Acro spinet has a nicer tone? C'mon, now, we know you're a fan of old gear, but this is getting ridiculous.
Ive played only one K300-- it had a fairly dark tone, but it was responsive enough. I've played a number of U1's over the years. They all had a somewhat bright treble tone, which I found made it harder to control. If you like the treble tone of those pianos better than the treble tone on an Acrosonic, so be it. You don't need a 48" soundboard for excellent treble tone. If you didn't notice, the treble strings are shorter than the bass strings on a piano.

I have seriously considered replacing my piano with a new K500, K800, or YUS5 so I'm by no means opposed to a new Yamaha or Kawai. But if we move, would likely get a grand instead.

An Acrosonic won't have the full, loud sound that would lead to a neighbor calling the police if you played late at night with windows open, but the ones I've played had lovely tone and sustain in the treble, maybe not the upper part of the top octave so much. Maybe the new U1's have a less bright treble? That would, however, be a $10,000 list price for a beginning piano student.

The main problem with an Acrosonic for a more advanced pianist is the shorter keys and action responsiveness. But there are plenty of other options for people who don't like them in any case.

I think a dealer with a full tradeup credit on a purchased used piano is a good deal for a beginning piano student. They can pick an instrument that fits their budget, and like at the time, and then trade up to a better instrument when they find the instrument to be limiting and/or have some established preferences.
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.
It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.
I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.
Yes - definitely Renner - on both brands. smile Did you audition Schimmel grands as well as uprights?


Not directed to me, but I have both auditioned and played some Schimmel grands and like them alot. The Schimmel Konzert series vertical actions are like no other vertical piano I've personally played, probably not a selling point as I would probably have to own the piano for a few months before I could decide if I liked the action.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird


Congratulations I am really glad you are getting a K500 ,good piano.What was wrong with " feel "of the Schimmel grand ? I tried a 130 Classic series but I could not hear properly as someone was tuning a piano in the store.The action seemed fine however!



I found the ones I played quite stiff, resistant, whereas the used Steinway M on the floor really “loose”. I found the Estonia just about right, although preferred the Bosie even better, but definitely not the price. But feel is so personal though.
Well I had to just go to a piano dealer and there was a Schimmel console (45"?)The last time I tried this smaller Schimmel it was out of tune.This time beautifully in tune, a sweet lovely sound and the
action is absolutely perfect for an upright that size.It is the regular Classic (Tradition)
I also tried a new Petrof grand ,gorgeous tone, can't but say it was wonderful price $69,000 (not sure
of the model.It could be bigger or smaller than the old model 4 ?)
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by Lady Bird


Congratulations I am really glad you are getting a K500 ,good piano.What was wrong with " feel "of the Schimmel grand ? I tried a 130 Classic series but I could not hear properly as someone was tuning a piano in the store.The action seemed fine however!



I found the ones I played quite stiff, resistant, whereas the used Steinway M on the floor really “loose”. I found the Estonia just about right, although preferred the Bosie even better, but definitely not the price. But feel is so personal though.

Anyway your Kawai K500 is what many people could only dream of !A really nice piano.
Really at your level it's perfect.The Estonia can wait a few years.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by Lady Bird


Congratulations I am really glad you are getting a K500 ,good piano.What was wrong with " feel "of the Schimmel grand ? I tried a 130 Classic series but I could not hear properly as someone was tuning a piano in the store.The action seemed fine however!



I found the ones I played quite stiff, resistant, whereas the used Steinway M on the floor really “loose”. I found the Estonia just about right, although preferred the Bosie even better, but definitely not the price. But feel is so personal though.

Anyway your Kawai K500 is what many people could only dream of !A really nice piano.
Really at your level it's perfect.The Estonia can wait a few years.


I agree!
The Petrof model grand I played was called Storm !
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The Petrof model grand I played was called Storm !

Actually very expensive!
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well I had to just go to a piano dealer and there was a Schimmel console (45"?)The last time I tried this smaller Schimmel it was out of tune.This time beautifully in tune, a sweet lovely sound and the
action is absolutely perfect for an upright that size.It is the regular Classic (Tradition)
I also tried a new Petrof grand ,gorgeous tone, can't but say it was wonderful price $69,000 (not sure
of the model.It could be bigger or smaller than the old model 4 ?)


What I said about about the Schimmel Konzert series piano I played was:
Quote

But the high end sustain was just average on the piano I played. It was not on par with the Bosendorfer or Grotrian verticals that I also tried. I likely would prefer a YUS5 or K800 to any Schimmel upright.

I also said prior it would be a downgrade of the piano I have with respect to sustain of treble tone. I’m not sure why both of those statements invoke so much discord, but they were my experience, and are not inconsistent with your audition result.

The Konzert series does have a different action from the Classic series.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well I had to just go to a piano dealer and there was a Schimmel console (45"?)The last time I tried this smaller Schimmel it was out of tune.This time beautifully in tune, a sweet lovely sound and the
action is absolutely perfect for an upright that size.It is the regular Classic (Tradition)
I also tried a new Petrof grand ,gorgeous tone, can't but say it was wonderful price $69,000 (not sure
of the model.It could be bigger or smaller than the old model 4 ?)


What I said about about the Schimmel Konzert series piano I played was:
Quote

But the high end sustain was just average on the piano I played. It was not on par with the Bosendorfer or Grotrian verticals that I also tried. I likely would prefer a YUS5 or K800 to any Schimmel upright.

I also said prior it would be a downgrade of the piano I have with respect to sustain of treble tone. I’m not sure why both of those statements invoke so much discord, but they were my experience, and are not inconsistent with your audition result.

The Konzert series does have a different action from the Classic series.

I was actually responding to WeakLefthand .,We all have different experiences with pianos.I had to go to the dealer as I am thinking of getting caster cups for my piano.We are getting a new furnace
in our home and there is an aspect water which has to be drained off ! So I am of course terrified of a water spill (pray it never happens )near or around the piano.(The reason for castor cups ?)
While there I tried the small Schimmel.The action and sound is fine.
Surely the Classic series ,Schimmel uses Renner in thier instruments?
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand

And someone mentioned Schimmel above and said it’s a very unique action that you either love or hate. Put me in the hate camp. Hated every one I tried. And I didn’t get it because it was supposed to be high-end.


It's not unique. It's Renner, as used by most of the European makers.


I played an Estonia 168, 190, 210 and loved those. I think they were Renner too? Nearly bought the 168, but I hated the Schimmels. Don’t know why. And it certainly was the feel I couldn’t get over.


Me, too, and I don't quite know why. I much preferred the tone and feel of the Estonias I've played, and the 210 was especially nice...probably my second choice of pianos I played when looking. With Schimmel I liked neither the sound nor the feel of the grands I tried...and I was expecting to like them a lot after researching them extensively.

So it's great that we still have some choice among top-end instruments, since we all have our preferences. cool
Well the weekend is over, maybe Letsplayit will come back and give us an update? Did you go to the sale? How was it??
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Surely the Classic series ,Schimmel uses Renner in thier instruments?


Renner is the brand of action used. There would be many different models.
Sweelinck,
I do not know what your problem is ? Both the Konzert and the Classic (Tradition)are made in Germany!!! (unless Brand Profiles is lying!!!) The Konzert does NOT make a 46"model .The piano
I casually tried had a beautifully sonorous tone and the ACTION WAS FINE !
It was the C116 (in case you want to BUY it ,it cost $21,000 (SMP)It was better than a U1 or a K300 !
Perhaps it's better than a U3 or K500 ,I do not know and do not care!!!
Schimmel make a number of different series pianos .International (materials sourced world wide )Wilhelm (and Fridolin Schimmel made in China.)
I do not think the Classic series have a 130 size like the Konzert .The huge soundboard and design in
the K 130 will make for a far better piano than the 49 " Classic .Otherwise write to Schimmel or Renner if it still bothers you.,find out what type of Renner Schimmel uses ?
What is the brand of your upright piano? Does it use Renner ?
I don’t have a problem. Why would you think so? I played a Schimmel Konzert series upright some years ago. The action was like no other I upright I’ve played, which includes some Schimmel Classic series uprights. I didn’t form a clear opinion on whether I liked the the Konzert series upright action. I was just trying to point out that my experience of Konzert uprights was the action is different from other uprights with Renner actions I’ve played. You seemed to be saying that they all should be the same because they are Renner actions, and I was just trying to reiterate that I did not believe that was the case. Why do you find that controversial?
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I don’t have a problem. Why would you think so? I played a Schimmel Konzert series upright some years ago. The action was like no other I upright I’ve played, which includes some Schimmel Classic series uprights. I didn’t form a clear opinion on whether I liked the the Konzert series upright action. I was just trying to point out that my experience of Konzert uprights was the action is different from other uprights with Renner actions I’ve played. You seemed to be saying that they all should be the same because they are Renner actions, and I was just trying to reiterate that I did not believe that was the case. Why do you find that controversial?

I find your obsessive attitude very odd.No one is saying all Renner actions are the SAME ?You KEEP
speeking about the action on the Konzert because I said the action is perfect on the C116 ?
Its perfect for THAT piano on THAT EXPERIENCE I had .I never had anyone take the piano apart
to look at the action.I played it ,it was SENSITIVE and RESPONSIVE ! Better than K300 or a U1 .
That says a great deal about a SMALL piano ! The tone was sonorous, the bass quite full and round.
It certainly is not the BOTTOM of the Bucket when it came to Schimmel, no !
You have not said what type of piano you have ?
There are quite a few VERY GOOD German pianos ,and I think a NUMBER share the same Renner action as the Konzert 130.
It is a 1912 Brinkerhoff upright. The sound board has not lost its crown. I purchased it from a dealer who had prepped it. The original hammers still have plenty of life, and the instrument produces a very sonorous vintage tone that I like. The piano has a silencing rail for quiet practice which may explain the low miles on the hammers because this drops felt in between the hammers and strings.

About 14 years ago a piano technician who serviced the instrument replaced the repetition springs with much higher quality springs than were originally in the action, and regulated the action. The end result was a very smooth playing action with good repetition for an upright. The action plays like a new, good quality upright at present. Another technician did some voicing to address one slight (but noticeable to me) outlier note, and I am happy with the result.
Yes I looked under an antique piano site and saw a picture of a similar piano to yours.! I would love to hear it but if your phone records as badly as mine does, then do not worry. I love old pianos and apart from the old Seiler my aunt gave me ,I also had an old Broadwood which was also very nice.I agree keep the tuning that makes you happy and is most practical. I am not sure when that old Seiler was made ,but do know it was pre WW2 (not as early as yours) .I think my niece still has it in England .I do not know if it's still played ?
Your piano sounds like an excellent piano ! (that's all we can ask for)
You can approximately date many vintage pianos here:

http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/ages/
Brinkerhoff made player pianos, but a unique piano they made was a player piano with the ability to cut piano rolls as well. Thus, you could record yourself play onto a piano roll and then playback the recording. Of course similar instruments existed to cut piano rolls, possibly without playback on the same instrument, not sure, but the Brinkerhoff one made it possible for a family of some means, but not necessarily wealthy, to afford one. Between that and the silencing rail activated by the middle pedal, they seemed to anticipate the 21st century 100+ years ago.
I have two things to comment on.

First, there is a lot of criticism about pressure at "events". Keep in mind that at most of these events 20 or more pianos are sold. Assuming that there are 40 pianos offered, about 1/2 of those available on the first day of the sale will no longer be available on the last day. This is a fact, so is it unfair pressure to point this out?

Also, in this thread several pianos are referred to as being "excellent". In my 60+ years in the business, I have sold many dozens of Baldwin consoles. While they have been well suit to a beginning student, none were "excellent", a word that has been, IMHO used carelessly.
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First, there is a lot of criticism about pressure at "events". Keep in mind that at most of these events 20 or more pianos are sold. Assuming that there are 40 pianos offered, about 1/2 of those available on the first day of the sale will no longer be available on the last day. This is a fact, so is it unfair pressure to point this out?


No, it is not unfair to point this out, and it's actually preferable that it be pointed out, under the circumstances. This is different from someone in a regular shop who puts a lot of pressure on the buyer to decide right away, who uses scare tactics or one-day only special prices to try to get the person to make a purchase on their first visit to the store.

When I wrote (at least I believe I wrote? it's been several days now)...
Anyway, when I wrote that I don't like pressure, what I meant is not that I don't want to know about the possibility of someone else purchasing a piano I'm interested in. What I meant is, I don't like to buy in a situation where I can't take my time, sleep on it, come back another day and play the piano again etc. And also, if it's a brand or an age I'm less familiar with, I'd want to have time to research it a little etc. Even more important, I wouldn't want to buy without having the piano inspected by *my* tech, but when I first go to a dealer's where there are multiple pianos, I could be test-playing for hours before I settle on 2 or 3 that are contenders. That makes arranging for an independent inspection (in one of these university sales) logistically complicated at the least.

In my piano search this summer, there were three dealers that I visited 3-4 times each, playing the same pianos. (There were other places, or other pianos, that I only played once and knew I wasn't interested in) . Ultimately, the piano I eventually bought, which was sold by a private seller, I visited 4 times before I decided to buy it. (The seller was very patient!!) And it wasn't until the fourth visit that I brought along my tech. So, I only paid for one tech inspection as well. OTOH, one of the pianos I played that I absolutely loved on first play, the second time I visited the store, I decided it wasn't all that great.

So, that's what I mean. A piano is a huge purchase (physically and financially). It's not like you can easily return it if you end up not liking it. So I personally would not want to purchase from a limited time only sale, the risk is too great IMO.
I cannot imagine anyone allowing themselves to be rushed into buying a piano like that.
This comes from someone who once made a mistake and bought a BAD "grey " Yamaha
upright a YU10 which had some kind of damage.(water ?)Fortunately we were able to return
the piano and were refunded.The piano I traded in for this damaged piano was my U1.
Although only a few days had gone by ,my 1980's U1 was already sold ! (or so I was told ?)
However I do not want to say anything more negative about the dealer since he agreed to
refund us.
We had to pay for the removal of the YU10 from our home and for it to be retuned in the store.
The dealer technician however was never very good at tuning anyway , however ?
Never buy a piano in a hurry ! (Like I did !)
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
I have two things to comment on.

First, there is a lot of criticism about pressure at "events". Keep in mind that at most of these events 20 or more pianos are sold. Assuming that there are 40 pianos offered, about 1/2 of those available on the first day of the sale will no longer be available on the last day. This is a fact, so is it unfair pressure to point this out?


All that is saying is that the pressure is not based on giving the prospective buyer false information to create the illusion of a deadline or scarcity. One perhaps instead should interpret that as evidence that nobody should buy any pianos at these sales because they won’t have a chance to sleep on it and return a few days later to a store to complete the purchase after finalizing a decision.
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Also, in this thread several pianos are referred to as being "excellent".

Having played many Acrosonic pianos, my position has been and still is that these pianos have a lovely treble tone with sufficient sustain not to limit a pianist who wants to play in a cantabile style, which is more than I can say for many new pianos in suitable price ranges for a beginning pianist.
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One perhaps instead should interpret that as evidence that nobody should buy any pianos at these sales because they won’t have a chance to sleep on it and return a few days later to a store to complete the purchase after finalizing a decision.


Ultimately that was my conclusion. Well, that plus the fact that 1) the sale organizers wouldn't tell me beforehand anything specific about what pianos would be available - i.e. they could say "we will be selling uprights and grands from Yamaha, Kawai, Boston, Steinway" but couldn't/wouldn't say anything like "we will have a 5 y/o Boston 163 and a 15 y/c Yamaha C3;" and 2) they wouldn't tell me any prices or even price ranges over the phone.


So it was all pressure (decide on the spot) and no advance info. And I said no thank you.
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There are quite a few VERY GOOD German pianos ,and I think a NUMBER share the same Renner action as the Konzert 130.

Yes there are some very good German uprights. I’ve played Bosendorfer (actually Austrian) and Grotrian uprights. I believe both had Renner actions. Both were superb pianos, and both were significantly more expensive pianos than the Schimmel Konzert 132, if list price is an indication.

Schimmel describes the Konzert 132 upright as having the Konzert grand piano action, whatever that means:

https://schimmelpianos.com.au/product/konzert-k132-tradition/

I am not aware of any high end German uprights with Renner grand actions. I believe the Konzert 132 uses an action where Schimmel is trying to simulate the feel of a Schimmel grand with the action. I don’t know if it is a Renner-built action, Renner action that Schimmel modified, Renner-built action that was modified by Renner at Schimmel’s request, or Schimmel built action.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
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There are quite a few VERY GOOD German pianos ,and I think a NUMBER share the same Renner action as the Konzert 130.

Yes there are some very good German uprights. I’ve played Bosendorfer (actually Austrian) and Grotrian uprights. I believe both had Renner actions. Both were superb pianos, and both were significantly more expensive pianos than the Schimmel Konzert 132, if list price is an indication.

Schimmel describes the Konzert 132 upright as having the Konzert grand piano action, whatever that means:

https://schimmelpianos.com.au/product/konzert-k132-tradition/

I am not aware of any high end German uprights with Renner grand actions. I believe the Konzert 132 uses an action where Schimmel is trying to simulate the feel of a Schimmel grand with the action. I don’t know if it is a Renner-built action, Renner action that Schimmel modified, Renner-built action that was modified by Renner at Schimmel’s request, or Schimmel built action.


Well terminaldegree is involved in the piano faculty , at a university an excellent pianist ,and a technician, and in case you do not know it, he used to own this very Schimmel Konzert 130 which I
remember him writing about .He seemed very pleased with it. As he told you it was a Renner action !
My Sauter has a very good Renner action as well !
In the world of selling big ticket items, “if the customer walks out without buying, the sale is considered lost!” Like it or not, there it is. It can frequently work in the customers advantage. When I grabbed my keys and started to walk the sales manager literally ran after us and agreed to my offer on the new truck. I now own a new Ford F-150 at my price.
Don’t go to a Piano closeout sale or college sale until you’ve done all your research, played a ton of pianos, and know exactly what you’re looking for. If you need lots of time to decide and you need to make numerous visits to try a piano on different days, you’ll only become annoyed going to these sales.
If you already know exactly what you want and can decide on a pianos sound and touch in a crowded noisy atmosphere, then you might make out and find a lovely piano at a discount. If not, avoid the sale and buy your piano through the traditional route or venue.
The piano salesperson at these sales are just doing what they’ve been trained to do and are trying to get you to buy their pianos NOW. We can’t blame them for doing what they’re paid to do.
My 2 cents.
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The piano salesperson at these sales are just doing what they’ve been trained to do and are trying to get you to buy their pianos NOW. We can’t blame them for doing what they’re paid to do.


I actually totally agree with this. I just decided that wasn't a situation I could work with.

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Don’t go to a Piano closeout sale or college sale until you’ve done all your research, played a ton of pianos, and know exactly what you’re looking for.


Re research, the only thing I would add is that whenever these sales are put together, they should at least offer a list of pianos beforehand, with brand, model/size, and age for each piano, so that a prospective buyer can be better prepared.
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
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The piano salesperson at these sales are just doing what they’ve been trained to do and are trying to get you to buy their pianos NOW. We can’t blame them for doing what they’re paid to do.


I actually totally agree with this. I just decided that wasn't a situation I could work with.

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Don’t go to a Piano closeout sale or college sale until you’ve done all your research, played a ton of pianos, and know exactly what you’re looking for.


Re research, the only thing I would add is that whenever these sales are put together, they should at least offer a list of pianos beforehand, with brand, model/size, and age for each piano, so that a prospective buyer can be better prepared.


You’re quite right. Here’s what I used to do and thanks to smartphones what we can more easily do, Bring a copy of Piano Buyer with the databases or bookmark PB databases on your phone along with the depreciation calculator. Walk in well armed. 😄
Originally Posted by j&j
In the world of selling big ticket items, “if the customer walks out without buying, the sale is considered lost!” Like it or not, there it is. It can frequently work in the customers advantage. When I grabbed my keys and started to walk the sales manager literally ran after us and agreed to my offer on the new truck. I now own a new Ford F-150 at my price.


That is definitely true in the highly competitive world of car sales, but I don't think piano sales have to be that high pressure. We have far less competition than a Ford dealer, for instance, so following-up with customers is actually a viable option. I suspect that a good amount of piano sales professionals have spent time in other high-pressure industries and bring those bad habits with them.
Robert Estrin talked about this in his video the other day. Was one of five topics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eYrXDDsJx4
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