There is a dealer advertising a used Feurich grand. It's a bit of a drive so I'm trying to decide whether the go and see/play it or not. It's not clear how old it is (no info on the site, but the photo is very pretty, so the case at least is in excellent condition). Oh, I think it is under 6 feet but probably bigger than say a Yamaha G1. (just guessing though)

I know nothing about Feurich so I wondered if anyone here had any thoughts or experience with them. Anything I should watch for, any specific concern. Positive or negative comments appreciated!

Ok, totally guessing here, but based on photos etc. I bet the Feurich is 30-ish years old, so if you have advice/comments about Feurich grands from that era, thanks in advance!

Also, what do you think would be a reasonable price (assuming it didn't need any work, was in good condition etc.)

I feel like when I see a used Yamaha grand advertised, I can kind of think "oh that's a reasonable price for that age" or something, but I have zero data points for the Feurich.

At 30 years old, it's a behind the iron curtain piano and is probably worth little. The factory that had been built after the bombing of the original factory during WWII was taken over by the communists and the conventional wisdom is than none of these pianos, no matter the name or factory are worth much or are more than average musical instruments and you don't seem to be looking for average.

Kurt

Kurt thanks for commenting!
So if they’re much newer, are they better regarded?

On the subject of average, what counts as an average instrument? .... I don’t know what I’m looking for (i.e. average or not) but I know I want something reliable, that is not going to start having lots of problems, that will hold its tuning. So for example that’s why I have Yamaha on my radar, because they’re so reliable, so consistent. Does Yamaha count as better than average?

(I don’t know how this post sounds but it’s not meant to sound snarky at all! These are sincere questions!

I would still try to get some additional information regarding the piano such as the serial number. The feurich grands I’ve come across in the 90s were exceptional instruments. It still might be worth a look depending on age, condition and price.

Rich

YAMAHA - yes, I'd generally think a well prepared one is above the average. But - individual pianos differ significantly - on condition, how well they were prepared, how much work they've done.

The "C" and "CX" series were better than the "G" series. "S" and "CF"s are very good or great pianos (and expensive).

Rich, thanks. I will try to get more info and then decide whether to make the drive or not.

Alan, thanks for that explanation. So would you describe the G series as average? Or at that point does it depend on the specifics of the actual piano? Again, I ask because I’ve played G-series pianos and I see them online a lot, so I have lots of data points for them, and it could help me to compare based on the Yamahas.

I performed on a Feurich grand a couple of months ago, for which I practiced on a Yamaha grand. Both were about the same size (between 5'6" and 6") but I don't know what models they were, and both were beautifully prepped (in the same venue - on a ship, in fact) and probably about a decade old. The Feurich's brown casing was particularly exquisite (and I thought it looked rather thicker than that of the Yamaha).

The most immediate impression was that the Feurich's action was much lighter and its tone much more mellow than the Yamaha's (whose action was actually much heavier than I'm used to) and going straight from the Yamaha to the Feurich was a shock to the system: my first thought was how dull the sound was, and I even attempted to force the tone to get the brilliance in ff that I'd become accustomed to from the Yamaha. Then I realized that wasn't the way to get the best from the instrument - you have to work with it, not try to make it sound like something it isn't - so I 'readjusted' my ears, and soon discovered that I could actually do more with it (in terms of nuances, range of tonal variation & dynamics etc) than I could with the Yamaha, whose sound was bright even when played pp.

So, in the end, I really enjoyed playing and then performing on the Feurich, and would unquestionably choose it over the Yamaha, if I was going to have one of them as a home piano.

Hi ShiroKuro,

I'm no pro, and just repeat what I've heard and read at times here on PW, but I heard (from a Yamaha rebuilder/refurbisher) that the cast iron plate on the G series Yamahas were not as thick or as heavy as the C series. There were also some differences in the construction of the case/cabinet. In other words, the C series appears to be a little more robust or heavier-duty than the G (for institutional use maybe?). But in all honesty, I doubt the average piano player could tell one iota difference between the two while playing. And, again, condition is everything when it comes to pre-owned pianos... well, most everything.

Also, I believe the G series came first, and then the C later on, while the G series continued to be manufactured, if my Yamaha history is correct. A lot of PW members own the Yamaha G series pianos and love them.

There are a lot of grey-market Yamahas out there (with two pedals) that you might want to be cautious of... not that they are not good pianos, but just be aware of what you are buying. Unfortunately, dealers are not always transparent as to the origin of the pianos they are selling, although some are. I would consider a grey-market Yamaha, but at a much higher discounted rate than one made for the US market in very good condition. But that is just me...

Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in with more info on the differences between the G and C series Yamahas.

Good luck!

Rick

Not so Kurt, in the 1960s Feurich moved his factory to Bavaria. Although I agree with you on the quality of instruments made behind the Iron Curtain.

The 1980s Feurich instruments are of very high quality, but they are also quite old. At St Andrews University there is a Feurich from 1985 and it's a beautifully built piano, but it does sound a bit tired. The fact it has been sitting in front of a massive window for a good 15 years has probably not helped it one little bit, however I can still hear and feel that it is ultimately a piano of exceptional quality.

Feurich is such a little known brand that they sell for very little when compared to other makes of the same quality, and so it's sometimes possible to find a very good deal.

Be prepared to have to engage a technician to voice and regulate it, level the strings, etc and don't expect too much from the piano. I can almost guarantee it won't be as good for you as a new Yamaha C3X, but at the same time it's probably not sitting in that price bracket either.

Bennevis, Rickster, Joe, thank you all for the comments and lots of food for thought!

Rickster, aren't two-pedal grands going to be a good deal older? I am planning/hoping to not even consider anything that's more than 40 years old. Although, I don't know, were there still two-pedal grands made in the 1980s?
Regarding the cast iron plate, I wonder if the thicker/heavier plate translates into more stability, things like that.

Bennevis, thanks for those comments, that makes me excited to try it! Of course with any older piano, I need to be very careful about the condition, and as Joe says, there could be issues etc.
BTW what is your home piano?

Also, Joe, my budget is definitely not in the range of a new Yamaha C3X!

Maybe a used C3 though...

There is a YouTube teacher/performer named Paul Barton, who records some/many of his videos on a Feurich grand. In the videos, the piano sounds wonderful.

He may have contact information on the web/YouTube, etc. since he is a teacher. He might provide you information about his experience with Feurich.

Ralphiano, thanks for that info! I found him:

https://www.feurich.com/en/paul-barton/

https://www.feurich.com/en/paul-barton/

Feurich is obviously his sponsor, so I bet he's playing on new instruments! But still, this is interesting to see, thank you for suggesting it!

It's a high-end digital (Roland V-Piano) which I've had since I joined PW.

BTW, the Feurich I played has a tonal character almost identical to Paul Barton's piano in his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74uZ0tHfTjE

Paul Barton is a Feurich artist and his YouTube videos are advertising for Feuruch. Although he spends many hours playing a Feurich, I would not consider him to be an unbiased source for Feuruch information/assessment.

Well, if the seller has a used Yamaha grand with 2 pedals and says it's a later model, you'll know something ain't right.

But you are correct that some of the very old pianos have the two pedals instead of three. But if the Yamaha grand piano is presented as a later model or, say, 20 or 30 years old with two pedals, it is likely a grey-market piano. Again, at the right price, a grey-market piano may be fine. Some of the grey-market pianos do have three pedals.

If you do look at a pre-owned Yamaha grand piano, here is the Yamaha website where you can check the serial # to see if it was made for the US market or not.

Yamaha Piano Serial Number Search

Good luck!

Rick

Thanks for that link Rickster! So far I haven’t seen any two-pedal Yamahas.

My teacher has 2 C3s with 2 pedals - one in the teaching room and one in her living room. They're both, I believe from the '70s, and at least one of them as been partly rebuilt. As far as I know, they're not grey market.

The Feurich grands Paul Barton uses are completely different pianos to the one you are looking at. The older Feurichs are tier one pianos from Germany, and the new models are Hailuns in the low price range. I'm not saying the new ones aren't good pianos, I'm saying they're in a completely different price bracket and quality tier, although actually they're quite good pianos for the money.

In Europe, lots of pianos had two pedals even up to the 1990s. Even Steinways in the 80s produced model Os with 2 pedals, although it was becoming far less common then. A lot of the other makes - Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Blüthner, didn't bother with the sostenuto on smaller models, unless they were being exported to the USA. We have Yamaha grands here from as late as 1990 that don't have three pedals.

Feurich moved from East to West Germany in 1959. They were located in Langlau (Bavaria) together with Euterpe. 1991 they were bought by Bechstein, but 1993 Feurich started again by their own in Gunzenhausen (Bavaria). I don´t know where Bechstein produced the Feurichs between 1991 and 1993. Feurich were allways very fine top instruments. They stopped production in Germany in 2011 or 2012. Today Julius Feurich is factory manager at the Seiler factory.

ShiroKuro,
My old Kawai grand had 3 pedals and was made in
the 60's
I do not know if you have considered Kawai grands as
an option?

I’m still not sure how the issue of the number of pedals came up!

Anyway, I have not played all that many Kawais recently. When I lived in japan, I played a lot of them, uprights and grands and Yamahas (and my first acoustic piano was a Yamaha U1). Anyway, it might be a prejudice or just badly prepped pianos, but I never really like the Kawais I played in Japan.

That was a long time ago and I am a different pianist, so I am open to considering them. I hope to play some soon actually, since there is a dealer with several that is in my driving range.

What kind of Kawai do you have?

ShiroKuro, I believe I brought up the subject of the two-pedal grands while discussing grey-market Yamaha grand pianos. Sorry if it caused any confusion or distraction in your thread.

But I was just trying to be helpful, actually.

Wishing you all the best!

Rick

It just goes to show, no two pianos are the same. I believe you unreservedly but I tried a new Feurich 179 last week (the proprietor said that he hadn't voiced it; so factory voicing) and found it to be bright, zingy with poor tonal dynamics. It could either do fairly loud and bright or really loud and unpleasantly bright. It did have some redeeming features - it looked great, was loud for its size and had definite hints of Feurich timbral character that I've heard on recordings, but I found it unplayable.

By contrast, I played a Yamaha C1X yesterday which was unexpectedly capable at lower velocities and overall had a sweet, clear tone. The GC1 right next to it shared little in common with it to the point that the salesman wasn't sure whether Yamaha may have changed the way they voiced their pianos recently.

I don't even want to think any more about the new Steinway B that I played in another shop. I have never played anything quite so exquisitely beautiful in my life.

Rickster,


Ahh, that explains it! No worries, you are always helpful! I just thought it was funny how the issue of pedals came up and then sort of seemed to stick. Let me say for the record that I do not intend to buy a grand with only two pedals!

Etherline, agreed, no two pianos are ever alike! Re that Feurich you played, I wonder how it would be after voicing, maybe it would be amazing, or just blah, there's no way to tell.

The Yamaha C1X is the new 5'3" pianos right? I haven't played any Yamahas that new yet. I have read that Yamaha is really changing its voicing, so that's not surprising.

Hi Lisa
You should rethink the absolute need to have a sostenuto pedal: I have one and my piano teacher does as well... but I am not comfortable learning repertoire with it. Why? I want to be able to play whatever I learn in public and all pianos do not have the pedal. Of those that do, they all do not function the same way. I already have performance anxiety, and I’m afraid it would blow me away to have learned the music with the sostenuto and then need to adapt for its absence at the last second. In addition, there are two schools of thought; one of which is ‘don’t use it if it was not included in the score of intent of the composer’.

In other words, you probably won’t miss it if you love a piano that doesn’t have it. YMMV

?? Dogperson, was that post directed at me? My name isn't Lisa

Anyway, thanks for your comments, but I am not concerned about learning a piece with sostenuto pedal and then coming across a piano without one.

What I am concerned about is getting a good quality grand piano that's not super old, and also getting a grand piano that has all the benefits of a modern grand piano, which includes the sostenuto pedal -- and the una corda pedal!! which is mechanically-distinct from the soft pedal on uprights. I am so ready for that!!

So, although I understand where you're coming from, I have already decided that I'm not even going to consider a two-pedal grand (I have to have some criteria, otherwise I'll just be driving all over the place all the time).

Dogperson, Lisa is ebonykawai's first name. But all the forum names and real names can get confusing...

As for the two pedal vs. three pedal pianos, I rarely, if ever, use the sostenuto (middle) pedal; I use the una corda (left pedal) about the same. I use the sustain (right pedal) a lot. But in all honestly I just like the looks of a three pedal piano because that is what I've always been used to. That is not to say that a two pedal piano isn't plenty good enough for 99% of all piano playing.

Just my .02, or would that be .03 in this case?

Rick

Yes, that is the difficulty. I didn't like the voicing of the other pianos in that shop; they all had a common character so even if the guy voiced it I doubt I would like it. But one from another source might, as you say, either be great or blah.

The C1X impressed me enough that I will go to London to try the C3X (which is more the size I want). If I've learned one thing recently it is that, for me, what makes a good piano is its ability to provide tonal dynamics not just volume. When I can sit down and play pianissimo and get a delicate tone while able to get power and clarity at ff then I like those pianos. The C1X had a solid basis for that which I am hopeful will translate to something even 'more' for the C3X. It had a lot more variety than I tend to expect from Yamahas as well as quite a nice touch. If they have been moving in that direction I would be pleased.

Have you read joe80's post?

The Feurich grands Paul Barton uses are completely different pianos to the one you are looking at. The older Feurichs are tier one pianos from Germany, and the new models are Hailuns in the low price range. I'm not saying the new ones aren't good pianos, I'm saying they're in a completely different price bracket and quality tier, although actually they're quite good pianos for the money.

Also:



You played a brand new Feurich made by Hailun.

The one I played was made in Germany and has the same tonal character as Mr Barton's piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74uZ0tHfTjE

German made Feurichs don't exist any longer. The factory in Gunzenhausen was closed when was there last year. Spoke to one of their previous tuners who runs a small, high quality shop of used pianos there. Good luck in your search!
Norbert

At last ! I thought I was having memory problems !
Feurich today are Hailun pianos!

I suppose Feurich as a name sounds rather more prestigious than 'Hailun'. Do they sell brand names like that around the world?

Whatever, that was the first time I played on one (and impressive it was, for a <6-foot grand), and I had no idea the German factory which made it is no more.

Anyway, let's hear a rather appropriate song.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp6ctUpX1ec

So basically you're saying that the recent Feurichs of Chinese production are at least good as the older German ones. High praise, I'd say.

Is 2 + 2 = 5?

Thank you Norbert.

Bennevis, the piano in that video sounds absolutely lovely!

Shiro:
The above sound sample might be “nice” but has nothing to do with how the original Feurichs sounded. Having grown up in Germany, I could hear after only few keys. Anybody who knows would say same...
cheers
Norbert🥴

Well is there any difference between Feurich and Hailun grands made now or is it just a different name ?

Just for the record, the piano I'm talking about isn't a new instrument...

Yes I realise you obviously played a German Feurich.
I ask the question because I know there an upright
Feurich Vienna which though strung back in China
is finished off in Vienna.
Also Hailun apparently states that the Feurich grand which is sold in the USA is superior in some way to the
Hailun grand .(which is sold in Canada for example)

So back to your original question, I wonder if we might imagine that the differenced between Feurich and Hailun grands is maybe analogous to the difference between Boston and Kawai (since they’re made in the same factories)? That might be stretching it!

But, just because one is made by the other doesn’t mean they’re using the same plans or production.

Perhaps someone with more background in this area will comment?

Hailun is the brand name given to the Ningbo Hailun (factory name) pianos. It's the name of the owner . NHPF also contract builds for quite a few other piano brands just like Parsons, and Pearl River (Essex and others) do. Piano Buyer says that the Feurich pianos have a different voicing than Hailuns. The scale/strings/felts maybe different as well. Maybe Steve Cohen or Piano Loverus have an insight about this. Ningbo Hailun also make the Cunningham's for Rich Galassini to a design unique from the Hailuns. Again it would be better for Rich G to enumerate those differences.

Contract building is really common in bicycles and especially musical instruments. Samick and Cort in S. Korea account for something like 70 percent of all electric guitars sold in the world.

I have owned a Feurich F172 for about a year. It was made in 2002, so it is from the Gunzenhausen era. Its tone is very clear but not bright or edgy at all and it is capable of a very wide dynamic range for a piano of its size. The touch is medium to slightly heavy but very smooth and responsive. If the piano you are looking at is about 30 years old then obviously the condition is a key factor, but if it is in good condition and you like the tonal character then I think it would be well worth considering.

Before I came across my German Feurich I had actually played practically all the models in the Ningbo made Feurich range while piano searching. To me the new ones are very different. Not only do they have a completely different origin, I think they are aiming for a different tonal quality too, something more mellow and a bit darker. None of the new Feurichs in the size and price range I was looking at made my shortlist, but the 218 definitely would have if I had been looking for such a large piano and I had that budget. Also the new Feurichs seem to be more competitively priced in some other markets than they are here in New Zealand.

There don't seem to be many samples of German made Feurichs online, but here are a couple:

https://www.klavierhalle.de/database/dt343332728/klangprobe.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZA6z_mC_Y&list=LLn_uDCzCv2R13uqsrVe6dJQ&index=4&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFa47_N1FU&list=LLn_uDCzCv2R13uqsrVe6dJQ&index=3&t=62s

I also wanted to mention that: there exists an Upright Feurich made in Austria since recently (2016 I guess). It uses a new concept of piano mechanics, called "High Speed KAMM Action", which allowes very fast repetitions ("supposedly" comparable to the best concert grands on the market. ) I can`t really tell, since I have never had the opportunity to play on one.
But I know, how a Upright Feurich made in China feels (and sounds) like...not as bad as supposed. They are solid pianos, nothing superior, but you cant ecpect that in this price range anyway.

Some impressions of the Vienna Mod. 123:
https://youtu.be/31tUOSku-gg - demonstration of the high speed repetition by Univ.-Prof. Kharin
https://youtu.be/DhmUQkl3T7I - Bill Dobbins on the FEURICH Mod. 123-Vienna

Hi Yok,

Just a point of clarification: If your Feurich was built in 2002,it may well have been made in Germany, but not in Gunzenhausen. In the late 80's, C. Bechstein purchased the brands Feurich, W. Hoffmann and Euterpe and closed the Gunzenhausen factory, moving production of these instruments to their facility in Seifhennersdorf. Most probably, your piano was built, or at least finished, in that facility.

So, the Feurich I played (which I really liked!) was approximately 30-35 years old and said on the plate "made in Langlau W. Germany.
Just fyi I guess.

Pinkiepie,
That Flight of the Bumblebee is amazing on that Feurich upright!
The pianist is pretty good as well !

There is absolutely no such thing as a "Feurich made in Austria." This is a false claim made by one of the THREE Chinese manufacturers marketing pianos under the name Feurich.

This video would disagree.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8U_R6k8NhYE

Ask them, or please provide, the exact full address of the "factory." I'll be there next week.

+1 on both!

No. If it was built in 2002, it was made in Gunzenhausen. In Seifhennersdorf Bechstein produced the Feurichs between 1991 and 1993.

When Bechstein purchased the brands Feurich, Euterpe and Hoffmann, they were produced in Langau. Then Langau closed. Production by Mr. Feurich owned factory in Gunzenhausen started in 1993.

No. If it was built in 2002, it was made in Gunzenhausen. In Seifhennersdorf Bechstein produced the Feurichs between 1991 and 1993.

When Bechstein purchased the brands Feurich, Euterpe and Hoffmann, they were produced in Langau. Then Langau closed. Production by Mr. Feurich owned factory in Gunzenhausen started in 1993.



Who are the three Chinese manufacturers? I know that there was a time when Mr. Feurich worked together with a Chinese manufacturer. Does that producer still market pianos under the Feurich brand?

And what´s your point about Made In Austria? When the strung back is made in China and the German Renner action is assembled into the piano in Vienna: where is it made then? China? Germany? Vienna?

Whether the website is put up by someone who is not Feurich, or whether the claims made on the website are false, I cannot say. But the Feurich website claims that the "Model 123 - Vienna" is made in Austria:

https://www.feurich.com/en/products/vienna-pianos/

and on this page, they give some sort of outline of their facilities in Vienna:

https://www.feurich.com/en/production/feurich-vienna/