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OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire

Posted By: JohnSprung

OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 08:36 PM


The spire and roof have collapsed.

https://abc7.com/notre-dame-fire-cathedral-spire-collapses-everything-burning/5251285/
Posted By: joe80

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 08:45 PM

I've been watching for the last two hours with tears streaming down my face. I can't bare it. It's just so sad. It's even worse that this is Holy Week.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 08:47 PM

My wife and I are so sad cry

We were just there this past summer and took photos of the interior.
Posted By: Lady Bird

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 08:50 PM

We were there last year.This is just so sad. I hope they are able to control the fire soon.
Posted By: Stubbie

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 08:58 PM

Oh my. What a tragic loss.
Posted By: backto_study_piano

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 09:53 PM

The Pipe Organ was my first thought.

Largest organ in France, from the 1700s, rebuilt and doubled in size by Cavaille-Coll in the 1800s - just had €2 million upgrade and rebuild.

No news on it's fate yet - but smoke and water could cause untold damage.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 10:43 PM

To see this happen to one of the great cultural treasures of the world is heartbreaking. It's not just the French people who are mourning tonight. Great treasures such as Notre Dame are a testament to ingenuity, and elevate all of humanity. I have every faith in the French people, and am confident that she is in good hands.
Posted By: Hakki

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 10:56 PM

It is so sad. A tragic loss. Fortunately the fire fighters seem to have it under control as the authorities have said.
Posted By: NobleHouse

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 11:04 PM

A tragic loss for everyone!
Posted By: JohnSprung

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
We were just there this past summer and took photos of the interior.


That'll be an important part of the reconstruction. With all the high quality photos that exist of it, it should be possible to create an excellent detailed 3D digital model.
Posted By: arc7urus

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/15/19 11:49 PM

The French media is showing photos of the interior of the nave and the vault has not collapsed, apart from a hole in the place where the spire fell down. There is still hope in the midst of tragedy that the fire damage was limited to the wooden roof structure and to the spire (which was also made of wood).
Posted By: newer player

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:01 AM

Very sad about this and thinking about France.
Posted By: JohnSprung

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:03 AM


In a Gothic building like this, loss of the roof structure is a lot more dangerous than in a modern building. The flying buttresses are there to put an inward force on the top of the walls, to counteract the outward force of the rafters. They'll need to get some temporary spreaders in there asap to restore the balance.
Posted By: Retsacnal

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:13 AM

When I worked in Switzerland, we could get to Paris pretty quickly on the TGV, so we went often. I've seen many cathedrals, but Notre Dame is one of my favorites.

Once, when the cathedral tour ended at Point-zéro out front in Place du Parvis, the docent leading us directed our attention back to the sculpture over the center door. She pointed out the depiction of the redeemed on the left, looking heavenward, and the damned on the right in chains. (Cathedral sculptures and other artworks usually depict Bible stories for the benefit of those who couldn't read.)

As she bid us farewell, she said that she hoped to meet us again one day in the line of people looking heavenward. She was so genuinely sincere that it really made an impression on me. Obviously, I've never forgotten it.
Posted By: Retsacnal

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by JohnSprung

In a Gothic building like this, loss of the roof structure is a lot more dangerous than in a modern building. The flying buttresses are there to put an inward force on the top of the walls, to counteract the outward force of the rafters. They'll need to get some temporary spreaders in there asap to restore the balance.


Yes! The stone is more than just a facade. Anyway, I hope that are able to save a significant portion of it all.
Posted By: Retsacnal

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:17 AM

I was just looking at some friends' posts in Facebook, and I realized I was last there as part of a choir tour in April of 1999. Hard to believe it's been 20 years...
Posted By: BigIslandGuy

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:32 AM

That was one of my first reactions too. I am stunned. So much history lost.
Posted By: David-G

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:33 AM

There has been little mention of the stained glass. I hope that they have managed to save it.

The spire dates from the 19th-century post-Revolution restoration by Viollet-le-Duc.
Posted By: Robert 45

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 03:10 AM

President Macron has promised to rebuild the Notre Dame Cathedral. Fortunately, it seems that the main structure of the cathedral has survived. I think that the heat, water, smoke and flames would have destroyed the stained glass windows. At least they can be remade and accurate reproductions can be created from the huge collection of photo documents of the windows. Some good news from this terrible event is that most of the treasured relics and art works have been saved. Vive la France!

Robert.
Posted By: Carey

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
The Pipe Organ was my first thought.

Largest organ in France, from the 1700s, rebuilt and doubled in size by Cavaille-Coll in the 1800s - just had €2 million upgrade and rebuild.

No news on it's fate yet - but smoke and water could cause untold damage.
The fate of the magnificent Pipe Organ was my first thought as well. Heard an organ recital at Notre Dame in 2006. Deeply moving, and certainly one of the high points of my trip to Paris.
Posted By: Jt2nd

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 04:20 AM

Truly shocking to see the blaze destroying such a beautiful cathedral .I was just reading last week about the power struggle in the 11th century between Italy and France for the direction the Catholic Church would take. The whole world will feel the loss of such a special building in such a romantic city .
Posted By: David-G

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 07:56 AM

It seems that the three large rose windows which are special treasures have been saved. And it seems that most of the stone structure, including the vault, has been saved. We have to hope for the organ.

It seems that much of the wooden roof structure was mediaeval and is a great loss. But also, much of the wooden structure, including the spire, dated from the nineteenth century restoration.

So amid the tragedy there is cause to be thankful.
Posted By: backto_study_piano

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by David-G
It seems that the three large rose windows which are special treasures have been saved. And it seems that most of the stone structure, including the vault, has been saved. We have to hope for the organ.

It seems that much of the wooden roof structure was mediaeval and is a great loss. But also, much of the wooden structure, including the spire, dated from the nineteenth century restoration.

So amid the tragedy there is cause to be thankful.

Our local organ builder commented that "... the heat and water damage would be the worst thing for the organ ..." and smoke. The majority of the pipes are lead/tin.
Posted By: ShyPianist

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 11:38 AM

I hear that the organ has been saved (post by Pianist magazine).
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 12:13 PM

All of this is good news (rose windows, organ, relics, stone structures, etc)! In the darkest days yesterday, it seemed like it would be much worse.
Posted By: Bosendorff

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 02:57 PM

It is indeed confirmed that the grand organ suffered only very minor damage and has been saved.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Carey

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
It is indeed confirmed that the grand organ suffered only very minor damage and has been saved.

[Linked Image]


Wonderful. I knew that the console was located at the front of the church near the bell towers, so there was a possibility it might be saved. Not so sure, however, about the pipes.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 04:49 PM

According to one of the organists at Notre Dame, it hasn't been damaged by fire or water, but it is covered in soot, and needs to be dismantled and cleaned.
Posted By: BruceD

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/16/19 05:35 PM

Notre Dame de Paris is such a remarkable testament to faith, to human ingenuity, to craft, to art, to history and to culture that no human with a heart will fail to grieve over the partial destruction of such an iconic edifice.

Already, funds are being promised for the reconstruction project which could take years, even decades, to complete. In those efforts to reconstruct, one can only hope that the same inspiration that motivated the original architects, the artisans, the labourers, Victor Hugo, Viollet-le-Duc and others will prevail whatever the cost and effort.

In the meantime, while we must hope, one can only grieve with the French and the rest of the world over this tragic event.

Regards,
Posted By: backto_study_piano

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 08:20 AM

Yes, great news. One blog which I subscribe to posted this YouTube - a track from a CD thought to be he last recording made on the Cavaille Coll (the major 1800s upgrade by them) Organ in Notre Dame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_...zbChiVj1WXL52bv5CCD7XfEHrB4ZKSlH976p4Ol4
Posted By: MacMacMac

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 12:54 PM

I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.
Posted By: NobleHouse

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.

I have read the same thing. It will probably take a long time.
Posted By: JohnSprung

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 02:36 PM


While a project like this restoration can be quite successful, one thing that is always impossible even after it's done, is to point to one moment in time or one task completed and say that that's the moment that all the work was over. What will happen is that a time will come when we look back and notice that not much more work is needed because of the fire damage.

Macron says five years, someone else even said three. While that won't be enough to really finish the job, it may be possible to partially re-open to the public in that time, much as the cathedral was open during the work that appears to have started the fire. There are other cathedrals that are open and in use with lots of temporary structural remediation visible. That may be Notre Dame's future for a few decades.
Posted By: rolex67

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 03:11 PM

When I saw Notre Dame burning ,I was thinking that everything would be lost paintings, statues, organs, stainded glasses,( and even the vaults ) all of our heritage and history ...

But as you mentioned above, most of the cathedral will be able to be restored.
The structure itself didn’t suffer too much.
The point is, of course, the definitive loss of the wooden framework made of oak
Coming from the middle age.
Something astonishing : the cock fitted on the top of the arrow that burned and collapsed has even been retrieved !

I hope ( and I’m sure ) thatt within 5 to 10 years, everything will be a bad souvenir.
like the cathedral of Reims that burned during the First World War or the cathedral of Chartres with its metallic framework. ( rebuilt after a fire in the middle of 19 th century ), a lot of important edifices suffered or were partially destroyed from bombing raids during the Second World War and now only minor “scares” testify of this past.
Thanks to donations, good organization and good wills the cathedral will retrieve its magnificence.
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by rolex67
The point is, of course, the definitive loss of the wooden framework made of oak
Coming from the middle age.
Something astonishing : the cock fitted on the top of the arrow that burned and collapsed has even been retrieved !

like the cathedral of Reims that burned during the First World War or the cathedral of Chartres with its metallic framework. ( rebuilt after a fire in the middle of 19 th century ), a lot of important edifices suffered or were partially destroyed from bombing raids during the Second World War and now only minor “scares” testify of this past.

I can almost guarantee that some of the burned items will be memorialized in glass cases in the rebuilt cathedral, including some of the 400 year old burnt oak timbers.

Originally Posted by rolex67
Thanks to donations, good organization and good wills the cathedral will retrieve its magnificence.

The donations/pledges have reached a billion euros!
Posted By: Carey

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.

I would think that the first order of business (aside from general clean up) would be to ensure that the remaining structure is STABLE, and that the damaged roof is covered so that the interior of the cathedral will be protected from the elements. I would also assume that the damaged scaffolding related to the renovation would need to be carefully dismantled and replaced.
Posted By: BruceD

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 05:47 PM

One interesting aesthetic and historic observation:

The "forest" - that structure of oak beams above the vault and below the roof, that structure that supported the roof of Notre Dame Cathedral - was made from (hundreds?) of individual oak trees. There is no forest extant in France that has oaks of the size that were used to build the "forest." That means that the cathedral can not be restored to replicate its original condition and appearance which, from the standpoint of construction, may not be a bad move.

There is talk that non-flammable modern elements should be used in the reconstruction resulting in a changed appearance of the cathedral. This would have historical impact, but one that is not without precedent. When other significant, historical structures have been damaged, repair has often used techniques that were more modern than those used to construct the original.

A classic example of this in medieval architecture is Chartres Cathedral. The south spire of Chartres Cathedral was completed around 1160, and the cathedral was consecrated in 1260. The north spire that we see now, in a totally different style was completed in the early 16th century. It was rebuilt because the original north spire was destroyed by lightning in 1506. Not only aesthetics but also construction techniques had changed, and at Chartres we now see a cathedral that no longer resembles the original.

[Linked Image]

The same aesthetic fate may befall Notre Dame de Paris.

Regards,

Posted By: BruceD

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 06:00 PM

A better view of the two towers of Chartres Cathedral, which I took in 2014:

[Linked Image]

Regards,
Posted By: Tyrone Slothrop

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by BruceD
The "forest" - that structure of oak beams above the vault and below the roof, that structure that supported the roof of Notre Dame Cathedral - was made from (hundreds?) of individual oak trees.

1300. Each beam was made from a separate tree.

Originally Posted by BruceD
There is no forest extant in France that has oaks of the size that were used to build the "forest." That means that the cathedral can not be restored to replicate its original condition and appearance which, from the standpoint of construction, may not be a bad move.

That may be, but there are old growth oak forests in the Russian Far East (Mongolian Oak). Wonder if this tragedy can transcend politics enough to be able to solved that way.
Posted By: JohnSprung

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by BruceD
There is talk that non-flammable modern elements should be used in the reconstruction resulting in a changed appearance of the cathedral. This would have historical impact, but one that is not without precedent. When other significant, historical structures have been damaged, repair has often used techniques that were more modern than those used to construct the original.


Indeed. Gothic construction is inherently unsafe by today's standards. No way would anybody ever get a Building & Safety permit to do that again. These buildings are just stacks of carefully shaped stone. There's no mortar, no steel, I don't even know if they used keys the way the ancient Greeks and the Stonehenge folks did. Collapses during construction were a real problem, particularly when taking out the temporary wooden supports under the arches and buttresses. It's amazing that these houses of cards have lasted as long as they have.
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/17/19 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by johnstaf
According to one of the organists at Notre Dame, it hasn't been damaged by fire or water, but it is covered in soot, and needs to be dismantled and cleaned.

Great news indeed!

That organ is so powerful, I was shocked when I heard it. I hope to have this experience again some day.

Posted By: Bosendorff

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/18/19 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
That organ is so powerful, I was shocked when I heard it.

About removing the soot out of all the organ pipes, I would first try a few full 5-octave fermata cluster chords at maximum wind power with all the stops pulled. The organist of course would need to put on a mask first. grin
Posted By: malkin

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/18/19 01:45 AM

I hope they hide a nice modern sprinkler system in the rebuild.
Posted By: backto_study_piano

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/18/19 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
About removing the soot out of all the organ pipes, I would first try a few full 5-octave fermata cluster chords at maximum wind power with all the stops pulled. The organist of course would need to put on a mask first. grin

I was involved in arranging repairs after 2 fires in a school where I was Business Manager. There wasn't only dusty soot, but also a slimy, greasy smoky coating on every surface in the building. Difficult to remove - though the professionals had stuff which did.

I play a digital Allen in my own Church (also Pipe Organ in another Church 2 Sunday mornings a month). There is an old, very small, not very capable Pipe Organ there which isn't working any more due to water damage, hence the Allen. When I first got there on Sundays, I'd fire the Pipe Organ up and played with all stops (all 7!!) to settle the temperature. I was always sniffly after that, I reckon because of dust being blown out.
Posted By: PhilipInChina

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/18/19 03:57 AM

Main thing is, don't employ anyone from Chesterfield to rebuild it.
Posted By: tend to rush

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/21/19 05:33 PM

NPR Update on the Organ
Posted By: Carey

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/21/19 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by tend to rush
NPR Update on the Organ
Good article - but somewhat misleading headline.
Posted By: WhoDwaldi

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/22/19 12:00 AM

I haven't heard about Vierne's console and how it fared during the fire (the great organist and composer suffered a stroke and died during a recital--the old console was replaced by modernizations, but kept for display).

St.-Sulpice, where the "other" (some say greater) organ in Paris is located, had a minor fire just recently--that organ is said to be OK.

Perilous time for pipe organs in Paris!
Posted By: WhoDwaldi

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/22/19 12:11 AM

Posted By: PhilipInChina

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/24/19 04:02 AM

I have been asked, by PM, to explain my reference to Chesterfield.

Chesterfield is a small town in Derbyshire, England. It is famous for the spire on the church there:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/chesterfields-crooked-spire

Apparently some confusion has arisen as there is a "stencil" town called Chesterfield in one of our colonies. I was referring to the original, not the ersatz.
Posted By: Iaroslav Vasiliev

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/24/19 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Chesterfield is a small town in Derbyshire, England. It is famous for the spire on the church there:

I bet 0.01% of Earth population know about the spire on the church there and the rest 99.99% know Chesterfield as a brand of cigarettes. smile
Posted By: David-G

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/24/19 12:16 PM

I am in the 0.01% I am afraid.
Posted By: ando

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/25/19 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Chesterfield is a small town in Derbyshire, England. It is famous for the spire on the church there:

I bet 0.01% of Earth population know about the spire on the church there and the rest 99.99% know Chesterfield as a brand of cigarettes. smile

For me Chesterfield is a type of couch...
Posted By: Rich Galassini

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/25/19 02:21 PM

Phillippe Lefebvre said, "When you play this organ, the stones sing."

They will sing again! From the NY Times:
The Article
Posted By: Rich Galassini

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/25/19 02:41 PM



Photos:

[Linked Image]
The Console


[Linked Image]
Coating from the fire
Posted By: backto_study_piano

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/26/19 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Chesterfield is a small town in Derbyshire, England. It is famous for the spire on the church there:

I bet 0.01% of Earth population know about the spire on the church there and the rest 99.99% know Chesterfield as a brand of cigarettes. smile

For me Chesterfield is a type of couch...

thumb Yep - that was my only thought.
Posted By: johnstaf

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire - 04/26/19 02:00 PM

I'm surprised that Chesterfield isn't better known worldwide. It has a very British mix of old-fashioned charm and a touch of eccentricity. Well I suppose in this case it's more than a touch... smile
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