Recently I had an opportunity to practice on a 1980s Bosendorfer 200 (6’ 7”). As I recently in the past two years returned to practicing piano seriously I realized I had never had the opportunity to play any Bosendorfer . So I read most of the history of this instrument maker on their website and searched for pianos of this era and maker being sold My question is about how much of the pianos construction was controlled by the Austrian home base Bosendorfer manufactory while being owned by Kimball international Inc. ?
The Particular instrument I played was full of rich character and wonderful sustain I confess to my ignorance in general about knowing this major and venerable piano crafting house . Thank you in advance for any info concerning American made Bosendorfer piano.

Boesendorfer pianos were not made in the u.s. when the Kimball corp. owned the Austrian company. the Kimball corporation was and is (they got out of piano making and marketing) the Jasper corp. after it renamed itself, subsequent to taking over Kimball pianos. Jasper's owner realized his piano subsidiary had much greater brand recognition than the original Jasper company, so changed the name. Jasper purchased Boesendorfer in 1966, renamed the company Kimball in 1974, and made a public stock offering in 1976. Kimball piano stopped u.s. production in 1996 ; Boesendorfer production was not interrupted while it was owned by Jasper corp./Kimball international, and was sold off in 2002.

there were Kimball 'viennese' grands that partially imitated Boesendorfer pianos when Jasper/Kimball owned the Austrian company, but no legit seller would try to call them Boesendorfer. probably all of the high prestige brands with long histories have had inconsistencies during some periods, and the Austrian company likely experienced some in the years 1966 to 2002 while being owned by 'die Auslaender' from Indiana.

Hi Coda9,

Welcome to a beautiful piece of the piano industry and a beautiful icon in classical music history.

I love Bösendorfer pianos and, thankfully, they did not suffer any manufacturing issues under ownership by Kimball International. The manufacturing and management of the two pianos were kept completely separate. The advantage that Kimball offered was a distribution channel into the USA. This was really the first time in Bösendorfer history that an organized distribution channel existed here.

This loosely corresponded with the Garrick Ohllson issue with Steinway, which can be read HERE in the beginning of this article. That created quite a stir and frankly it helped Bösendorfer sales across the USA.

In short, there is no need to worry about manufacturing quality at that time. The one common issue is that some American piano technicians at that time, unfamiliar with the style of construction, unintentionally mistreated these pianos and the result was not very musical.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Enjoy the piano and let us know your thoughts.

That was an interesting article. Rich, has this "situation" continued, or has it let up a little?

Hi NobleHouse,

Good question. First of all, this is my perspective of the market and I am happy to hear from others who might have a different viewpoint.

The "situation" has become, in my view, more difficult for Steinway. They went from making almost 2000 pianos in New York the year before that article was published in 2004 to just over 1000 in New York in 2010 (these figures are readily available online since SMP was publicly traded at the time).

In my opinion, there is competition out there now in the premium concert grand piano market from several directions and these pianos are so carefully made and finished that consumers and institutions are sometimes making different choices.

One company that has made a big step up is Yamaha. The CFX is a beautiful piano, and here in the Philadelphia area, several colleges have chosen them in the past several years and IMHO, those pianos would have likely been Steinway sales in the past.

My 2 cents,

I also think that with the rise of the Internet, it's easier for people to come across various piano makers that they wouldn't have heard of in the past. High-end "boutique" companies like Steingraeber now have a profile wouldn't have been possible until fairly recently, even though many people probably assume at first it's one of those ridiculous names like Steinhoven.

Absolutely johnstaf! I totally agree.

Bösendorfer has always maintained independence including when they were controlled by the same holding company (jasper Corporation) that controlled Kimball. Now being part of Yamaha they are stilled independent and are not influenced by Yamaha. They have told me this during factory tours outside of Vienna. Bösendorfer has never produced more than 300 pianos a year.

I'm thrilled Bösendorfer is a subsidiary of Yamaha because Yamaha is such a solid company and lets Bösendorfer operate independently.

There is no such thing as a Bosie please.

Steve

Thank you everyone for confirming and clarifying the Bosendorfer relationship with Kimball International Inc.
When I had the wonderful opportunity of playing this instrument for four days my fingers and ears told me it was totally crafted of Vienese heritage . I was overwhelmingly impressed with the beautiful mechanical eveness of its action. Also I was curious to find three distinctive colors to the lower middle and high treble registers As this instrument had very little use for 30 years I also realized it needed a LOT of playing up-and-down the keyboard to condition and Blossom it’s sound potential When I raised the lid completely that helped very much to blend the total sound together Fortunately. it’s housed in a very stable temperature environment with wood floors
Last question is this : Why are some Internet ads selling pianos from this association with Kimball labeling the piano as “Kimball-Bosendorfer”? That seems to infer that Kimball might be involved in production of the finished instrument .
On the topic of various brands of pianos being made more known through use of the Internet , I listened with great curiosity to a Gentlemans search of approximately 15 recorded samples of pianos he was considering to buy Steinway, Steingraber, Schimmel, Sauter, Grotrian, not sure if I remember also Bosendorfer — different sized models of these piano brands. Same short piece and same recording equipment placed at same distance Surprisingly easy to determine differences of pianos tonal characters through his samples

I thought Bösendorfer was controlled exclusively by a UK guy called Brian Kemble - yes, overall owned by Yamaha, but under Mr Kemble's scrutiny and control...

I played some new Bösendorfers at Yamaha London a short time ago - sublime actions, beautifully designed instruments, BUT, to me (and the pianist I was with), they all sounded 'odd' - somehow like old-school Blüthners - slightly muffled and, alas, rather odd in terms of tuning, despite the techs vehemently claiming they were in tune. They didn;t seem like the old Bösendorfers I remember from the 80s/90s

The Kimball connection - I've got a friend in Vienna who has one of these Bösendorfer/Kimballs (although simply called a Kimball) - it's a piano that has seen better days, but it has something very special and really does seem like a quality instrument. I haven't played bog-standard Kimballs, so have no point of reference, but I was pleasantly surprised...

Is it a Kimball? Noooo..... Is it a Bosendorfer? Noooo.....

It's a Kimballdorfer!!

I have a customer with a 6' 7" Bosendorfer, and another with a Kimballdorfer about the same size.

There would be no confusion as to which is the better instrument, by far.

Kimball made a "Viennese Classic" model that was marketed as a cooperative design between Vienna and French Lick (headquarters for Kimball). I do not know how much cooperative design there actually was, and more importantly, how much of that design made it to the final product.

I can say that the Viennese Classic was one of Kimball's better pianos (of which most were entry level quality), but in no way, shape, or form did it compare at all with Bosendorfer.




Brian Kemble, formerly of Kemble pianos, was the Managing Director for Bosendorfer for several years, precise. He has retired but is still well respected in the industry.

Hi Rich:

The Kimbledorfer to which I am referring to is a Viennese Classic.

It is not a bad piano, and could be much better using better hammers and other materials and time spent to chase the details. As is, it is a bit of a poor cousin to the much more refined Bosendorfer. The plate casting looks like that of the Bosendorfer, the other details of board and string scale would require close scrutiny.

Will

When you see anything referencing a “Kimball-Bosendorfer” piano, make no mistake -- it's a Kimball made in Indiana. It's an imitation or copy of one of Bosendorfer's smaller scale designs, but other than that, it's in no way a Kimball. Kimball was definitely involved in every step of the production. They do not bear the Bosendorfer name on any part of the instrument. It's all Kimball Viennese Classic piano.

No pianos with the Kimball name that were ever produced in Vienna and sold on the public market.

However, it seems like I did read that it was rumored that Kimball brought a handful of 7' foot Bosendorfer pianos over and put the Kimball name on the fall board for use in some high profile venues like the Tonight Show and the Grand Ole' Opry when they had those contracts. Experts, are those rumors true?

Will,

Was the piano you refer to 200 cm. (6'7" ish)? If so, I have heard that they made a Viennese Classic that actually had a Bösendorfer frame at one pont, but I have never seen one in person. Maybe you have?

(This is only third hand information for me that I have not yet confirmed, so treat this like a rumor until Will responds).

Could these be the ones that I mentioned in my post earlier when I said...?

Rich, the answer is no on the plate, and likewise to the rest of the construction. It has horizontally laminated bridge caps, and the bridges were in the 40 mm. height range. I am quite confident that it is not an incognito Bosendorfer. The workmanship and materials are too journeyman, and it otherwise looks like an american made piano.

I can't confirm or deny your rumor, I can only say that if there were some Bosendorfers disguised as a Vienna Classic, this wasn't one of them.

Will

I'm in Nashville and I have talked to several piano techs here who serviced pianos at the Grand Old Opry. I believe they were just Kimball Viennese Classics.

Speaking of Nashville and Kimball grand pianos, I believe the only time I've ever seen (on TV or live) a professional pianist/artist, perform on a Kimball grand piano was Floyd Cramer when he performed the piano instrumental "Last Date". Not sure if Kimball endorsed Floyd Cramer or he endorsed Kimball, but I do remember seeing a TV show, maybe the Grand Ole Opry (don't remember for sure) where he performed that piano instrumental, which was a big hit for him back in the day, on a Kimball. The piano had the Kimball lettering on the side of the grand piano, which is why I remember it well, and looked to be well in excess of 6 feet. It may have been one of the 6'7" Kimball Viennese models.

That said, I've played one of the 6'7" Kimball Viennese grands and owned one of the 5'8" models for a while. I was impressed with both, but my playing is not all that great.

That said, you don't need a Bosendorfer piano to make music and have fun (unless you want one and can afford one:-). My YT music video, "Old piano adventure, the saloon sound" just surpassed 4,000,000 views and counting. Again, not that I can play all that well, and the old upright piano in that video was not a Bosendorfer, or a Kimball, but you never know what people will like or not like.

When it comes to pianos, buy what you like and enjoy and can afford, be it a Kimball or a Bosendorfer, or other.

By the way, I played Floyd's piece, "Last Date" on my Kawai K48A upright piano today, and thought it sounded nice. To me anyway.

Rick

Thanks everyone, for fascinating info about the Bosendorfer and Kimball interaction. Do I understand correctly that Kimball built the Vienese Classic totally from their hands in Jasper/French Lick, Indiana? And Bosendorfer continued their own production of pianos in Vienna? It's a bit surprising that Bosendorfer agreed to the "Viennese Classic" imitation from Kinball's manufacture, but I'm sure all was obvious who (Kimball) made the imitation and who made the authentic Bosendorfer piano in Vienna's manufactory.

The piano I played for 4 1/2 days had the name Bosendorfer on the fall board. I do remember the owner mentioning the purchase was made in French Lick, IN and that 4 Bpsendprfer pianos from Vienna had been brought to French Lick. Thanks again for a fascinating thread.

Floyd played a lot at the Opry a lot. Maybe that's where you saw that, Rick. I never heard that he had an endorsement agreement with Kimball. In fact, I never heard of anyone endorsing Kimball. But Kimball did have an agreement with the Grand Ole' Opry House and it was the only piano allowed on stage for many, many years. Having connections in Nashville, over the years I often heard of the frustrations of musicians who really didn't like playing them there, but it was the only option in those years.

Kimball also had the same arrangement with the Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson for many years during the same era (Doc Sevorensen years). However, the piano was usually in a position where the Kimball name was not visible.



Yes, Kimball pianos were only produced in Indiana, and all Bosendorfer pianos were built in Austria. Kimball was able to copy Bosendorfer because Kimball owned Bosendorfer at the time. I don't think Bosendorfer could have resisted since they were the subsidiary of Kimball. I agree that the Kimball Viennese Classic pianos don't come close to comparing to the Bosendorfer pianos, however the Kimball grands do have a "Eurpoean" feel to them in the action and tone IMHO.

Kimball never "owned" Bösendorfer, Kimball and Bösendorfer were owned by the same holding company. see below from Wikikpedia. But anyway, what does this have to do with a hill of beans?

Jasper Corporation (later renamed Kimball International), parent company of Kimball Pianos, assumed control of Bösendorfer, where it remained before returning to Austrian hands, when the BAWAG PSK Gruppe purchased it in 2002.[3] BAWAG signed an agreement to sell all stock in Bösendorfer to Yamaha on 20 December 2007.

Steve

That is totally true, Steve.

I did not pursue that fact because at this point it is only a detail to me. The important thing to know is that Kimball pianos and Bösendorfer pianos were completely different manufacturers with completely different philosophies. The only real connection (with the possible exception of Kimball using a Bosie iron frame for a small number of Viennese Classics**) is common parent ownership..... and Kimball's attempt to exploit the connection in their marketing.

Thank you for the post, Steve.

** To be perfectly clear, I have only heard of this and have never seen one.

My 2 cents,