Forum,

Sold my briefly owned but much beloved AF 215 to fund Jr's freshman year at college, so found myself on the street once again. Search ended with the purchase of a Boston 193 (6'4"). Some (I hope useful to somebody) opinions formed through the search:

1. Boston vs. Kawai

The same company operates the Kawai dealership and the Steinway store in this market (Houston), so I was able to compare Kawai and Boston at my leisure, interrupted only by the drive of a few blocks.

-Kawai (RX-5) tone seems a bit brighter.
-Actions seem almost identical. The much ballyhoo'd Millennium Action in the Kawai doesn't seem to deliver any different feel than the Boston, at least not to this hacker. A real pianist might notice some variation, but I'm thinking there isn't much.
-Kawai, surprisingly, was more expensive in this market.
-Boston offered an satin black finish, which is what I wanted, and I don't think Kawai gives you that option.

I have owned an RX-5 in the past, thought it was a great piano, and considered this decision pretty much a coin flip, with price and availability of satin black finish being the deciding factors.

2. Internet vs. local dealer

I ran the Ebay traps, the Piano Mart traps, etc. and talked to the usual suspects who sell used pianos on the internet...Rick Jones, etc. My impressions:

-There is an ocean of used Japanese pianos out there. I could probably identify 20 reputable sources on the internet. The three I talked to specifically were all professional, cordial and eager to be of service.

-But there does not seem to be any industry standard of how these used pianos get "refurbished" when they're taken out of the cargo container. Some guys appear to do no more than buff the finish and tune them. Others appear to do a major restoration, changing strings, pin blocks, etc. It is not easy to discern the difference just by looking at web sites, and the sales guys I talked to were nice but not exactly fonts of detail regarding what had been or was going to be done to a particular piano...they all could confirm that "it's just like new" however.

-So, in my opinion, a purchase through the internet involves an element of risk that I wasn't willing to accept. I didn't have the budget to fly around the country looking at used pianos, and I would take only a little comfort from a local tech's inspection. What's he going to be able to say? He'll tell you it's a nice 20 year old Japanese piano or one that needs work, but his opinion about the sound and touch are not going to be as useful as really playing the thing.

-And although these considerations are personal to me, I needed some financing in the deal, I wanted a local service organization behind the warranty, I had a small Boston upright to trade up, I have known the Steinway salesman, Bill Johns, for a long time and have a great deal of respect for him, and I wanted a chance to play the heck out of the piano I would eventually buy. So those considerations all dictated a local purchase from the Steinway/Boston dealer.

Anyway, be careful out there. PLay well and often. I'll try to post pictures when it comes. TGG

TGG congrats. I am glad that trips to the local S&S emporium proved to be positive. Though I have never personally purchased from Forshey, they always seemed to be a decent bunch whenever I auditioned instruments for my students. One of my students has a Boston in that size that I played recently, and it's certainly a nice piano. My thoughts regarding the Kawai vs. Boston debate mirror yours.

I think this is an excellent and important point. Buying sight unseen is always going to carry some risks with it; buying a gray market piano sight unseen adds another layer of risk.

Congratulations on your new piano, TGG. You're a good parent to sell your AF 190 to fund your son's college education. I hope he is suitably repaying you by studying hard.

Monica, he's doing plenty of hanging around the student union playing video games with his new buddies. Got an "A" on a paper arguing that "Halo III" is culturally significant. No kidding. Other than that no detectable signs of progress. But thank you for the kind thought. GG

TGG,
Thanks for sharing how you viewed the Kawai and Boston models, and congratulations on your purchase. One of my wife's colleagues has that model of Boston and seems thrilled with it. Fantastic piano, enjoy it.
Todd

Considering the prices of used August Forsters here and on Pianomart, I'm surprised that replacing one with a new Boston 193 from a dealer would fund a year of college.

One retailer controlled the local market for both of the pianos you were interested in. Do you feel that put you at any competitive disadvantage?

I'm curious as to why you refer to piano sales on eBay or Pianomart as traps. If you wish to speak unfavorably about those sites, you should do it clearly, and back it with some specific information. Similarly, I'm curious why you refer to Internet piano vendors as 'the usual suspects'. Are you just being glib, or do you have some axe you wish to grind?

Considering the vast differences in actual practices among grey market entrepeneurs (which you yourself have detailed in your post), how can you recommend 20 sources as reputable when you have only 'talked' to three. Even in terms of those three, did you talk with them in person, see and play their pianos, prove to your own satisfaction that all necessary internal replacements had been made on them? Or did you just assess the reps to be cordial and eager?

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the grey-market trade, at least on the West Coast of the US, is that the rebuilding, refurbishing, renovating, or whatever it happens to be is done in Asia. When the pianos reach their destination in containers, they are in their finished state.

You are setting up a straw man to knock down. More Internet piano purchases are made through craigslist than any other source. People shopping Craigslist do not need to pay for air tickets.

EBay's website makes it very convenient for shoppers to narrow their choices to the geographical market near where they live. One simple click lists all pianos offered in order of distance from your home zip code and tells you the exact mileage in each listing. Also, Pianomart listings and the listings here on PW make it easy to see where a specific piano is located.

Most, in fact, almost all Internet piano vendors operate b & m showrooms as well. You can label them as traps and call them the usual suspects, but if you are trying to say that b & m dealers are the saints and Internet dealers the sinners, it doesn't make sense.


.

Sheesh Turandot. Give TGG a break. Read earlier posts by TGG and give TGG some respect. It's all personal opinion and no evidence of an agenda.

Turandot:

________________________________________
"Considering the prices of used August Forsters here and on Pianomart, I'm surprised that replacing one with a new Boston 193 from a dealer would fund a year of college."
________________________________________

Well, I get what I deserve on that one don't I. I opened the door by discussing my motives for shopping for a piano. That 'ole Turandot can sniff out a fraud a mile away.
_______________________________________
"One retailer controlled the local market for both of the pianos you were interested in. Do you feel that put you at any competitive disadvantage?"
______________________________________

I don't think I said it didn't. The title of my posting was not "I'm a smarter piano shopper than you."
_______________________________________
"I'm curious as to why you refer to piano sales on eBay or Pianomart as traps. If you wish to speak unfavorably about those sites, you should do it clearly, and back it with some specific information. Similarly, I'm curious why you refer to Internet piano vendors as 'the usual suspects'. Are you just being glib, or do you have some axe you wish to grind?
________________________________________

In my little corner of the world, the term "running the traps" refers to checking something out, no more.

The phrase "the usual suspects" implied the more prominent internet sites that one finds first via search results. I was being glib, you're right.
_______________________________________
"Considering the vast differences in actual practices among grey market entrepeneurs (which you yourself have detailed in your post), how can you recommend 20 sources as reputable when you have only 'talked' to three. Even in terms of those three, did you talk with them in person, see and play their pianos, prove to your own satisfaction that all necessary internal replacements had been made on them? Or did you just assess the reps to be cordial and eager?"
___________________________________________

I'm not sure what to make of all that.

1. I didn't recommend anybody.
2. You're right, talking about 20 reputable sources when I only talked to three on the phone is less than precise. Thanks for pulling me up short on that.
3. I think my post was clear that I hadn't traveled to see them in person. What's cooking here? Are you trying to expose my "cordial and eager" opinion as one based on insufficient evidence? Fine, they SOUNDED cordial and eager.

_________________________________
"I may be wrong, but my understanding of the grey-market trade, at least on the West Coast of the US, is that the rebuilding, refurbishing, renovating, or whatever it happens to be is done in Asia. When the pianos reach their destination in containers, they are in their finished state."
___________________________________

I appreciate that information. It seems consistent with my stated concern that, for me, personally, spending my own money, there didn't seem to be a reliable way to dope out what work had been done to what piano.
____________________________________
"You are setting up a straw man to knock down. More Internet piano purchases are made through craigslist than any other source. People shopping Craigslist do not need to pay for air tickets.

EBay's website makes it very convenient for shoppers to narrow their choices to the geographical market near where they live. One simple click lists all pianos offered in order of distance from your home zip code and tells you the exact mileage in each listing. Also, Pianomart listings and the listings here on PW make it easy to see where a specific piano is located.

Most, in fact, almost all Internet piano vendors operate b & m showrooms as well. You can label them as traps and call them the usual suspects, but if you are trying to say that b & m dealers are the saints and Internet dealers the sinners, it doesn't make sense."
_______________________________________

1. I don't remember saying that I was confused about where a given piano offered on-line was located. I remember saying that I didn't have the budget to travel to look at any. You are certainly correct that I should have noted that I didn't find any pianos online in my area that interested me.
2."Traps" and "usual suspects" are addressed above.
3. I said what I was trying to say. I didn't say that all B&M dealers are saints and all internet dealers are sinners. Get a life. TGG

TGG,

Since you have chosen to personalize this, I will comment no further. But I do stand on my post.

This is a typical thread where good questions or 'question-type' statements were made and good answers were actually given.

Example:

TGG saying:

-"But there does not seem to be any industry standard of how these [Japanese] used pianos get "refurbished" when they're taken out of the cargo container. Some guys appear to do no more than buff the finish and tune them. Others appear to do a major restoration, changing strings, pin blocks, etc. It is not easy to discern the difference just by looking at web sites, and the sales guys I talked to were nice but not exactly fonts of detail regarding what had been or was going to be done to a particular piano...they all could confirm that "it's just like new" however."

To which turnadot rightfully replied:

"I may be wrong, but my understanding of the grey-market trade, at least on the West Coast of the US, is that the rebuilding, refurbishing, renovating, or whatever it happens to be is done in Asia. When the pianos reach their destination in containers, they are in their finished state."

Which is absolutely correct, at least in 99.9% of all cases I know.

Norbert

Turandot,

Go stand by your post in a busy highway you moron.

Norbert,

This is typical of a thread, all to common on this forum, where somebody posts what are hoped to be (yes, perhaps too innocently, perhaps burdened too much by hubris and too little by humility) useful observations about something...buying a piano, selling a piano, evaluating a piano, whatever (you know, they call it Piano World) and getting climbed all over by the self appointed "agenda police" who have no clue (how dare I refer to running the "traps" after all) and no manners. You have been victimized repeatedly by the Agenda Police. Screw this. I am going to go run in the streets in Burma and, when its free, I'm coming back here to do the same. TGG


TGG

turandot

Shame on you. You want to be an investigative reporter, look at Norbert's posts lately.

By the way you should apologize.

Now THAT'S a creative kid!

Enjoy your new piano!!

After reading turandots post - twice, I don't see that any apology is required.
TGG, you took a bit of opposition and questioning of your post to the extreme and send the poster to stand in the middle of a highway. (?)
turandot quietly retreated after your (rude) response, seeing that you were taking it far to personally.

Have fun in Burma.

ASOP,

I mentioned that I would comment no further on this since it had become such a personal issue. At a certain point it was not about pianos in any way.

With that in mind, you should hardly expect me to have any kind of dialogue with you. Your posts are most often not about pianos, but about your opinions and moral judgments of other members. Now, if that stirs your drink, so be it. But it is of zero interest to me.

I got into this thread because I felt that the OP reached some broad negative conclusions about Internet piano shopping that were unwarranted. I also felt the grey-market trade was described in a way that is somewhat different from reality. I never felt the OP had an agenda. I was only countering his position. I think I am sensitive to criticism of the use of the Internet in piano shopping or product research. You could check with USA trucker about that. But I reserve the right to react strongly to a thread title and opening post that gives a misleading (IMO) view of the Internet's role in learning about pianos in general and in finding one to buy.

I'm not really sensitive about the grey-market trade. IMO, there is little to no reason to choose this kind of piano. But since the OP was congratulated on his important insight about how grey-market pianos were received and prepared, and since IMO that insight was in error, I brought it up. That is the sum and substance of what you would call my agenda.

Finally, if you seriously expect me to apologize to someone who tells me to stand in the middle of a busy highway because I disagree with his post, then you can make the apology for me. Perhaps then your peculiar sense of moral justice will be satisfied.

Well, I hate to sustain a flaming thread, but this one does still have me confused.

TGG, did you decide you didn't like the AF? Or did you simply not regain a lot of money through the sale/new purchase? Just curious to understand.

Todd

Did it ever occur to you folks that the guy sold his AF at some point, to obtain funds for something of great importance...then later, when he could, with different funds, bought himself a new piano? I mean, that's how I read it.

[checking now on the cost of flights to Burma...]

J.Mark
What's in Burma??

Burmese

Actually, Burma (aka Myanmar) is going through severe political unrest and is run by a militaristic govt. with a pretty much zero tolerance policy for those who don't follow the party line.

I suspect the J.Mark is making a political statement about PW and some of it's posters

Seeing as I was the person who congratulated TGG on that insight, I feel a little compelled to respond here. In reading TGG's original post on the issue, I don't see where he made a claim regarding where the work was done. Moreover, in my mind, *where* the refurbishing work was done matters relatively little; the problem is that nobody can document exactly *what* work was done. To me, this increases the risk of purchasing a grey market piano. In fact, finding out that the work is all done back in Japan and that nothing is done here in the U.S. only makes it seem riskier to me, as who knows what happens during transit. Are the pianos shipped in sealed, climate-controlled containers? Or are they exposed to salt air and water?

In short, I still think that "insight" was a good point and not in error.

Toddler2,

Again, I opened the door by talking about my motivation, so I will for clarity's sake state that I loved the AF 215, sold it for just slightly more than I bought it for in order avoid having to take out a huge loan to educate Jr. Then purchased the best replacement I could with a little cash, a trade-in and financing. Probably self defeating, since I took on one loan to avoid having to take on another, but the piano loan produces a lower payment than the college loan would have.

I guess I shouldn't have opened that door. Should have just said "I've been shopping for a piano."

Turandot and Monica,

Arguing about whether my insight on the preparation of grey market pianos was insightful or not insightful doesn't really address my pique. I am happy to be corrected when I am acting less than insightful...part of the burden I bear as a big dummy is having to be grateful when folks set me right (no, Turandot, that doesn't mean the opposite of having folks set me left, it means "correct me"). I thought Turandot's addition to that portion of the discussion was useful. I didn't and don't think that he needed to make snide comments implying I was lying about the motive for my shopping experience, put words in my mouth or just plain act stupid about what "running the traps" means. But, you know, I'm over it. I really shouldn't have told him to stand in a busy highway next to his post, which he has standing by, so I apologize. He would look funny standing there, next to his post, but I apologize. He doesn't need to apologize, although I appreciate the sentiments of those who recognized and called him on his bad manners. I'll go vent my passion in the streets with the Buddist monks and Turandot can stay here and run the show. TGG

Hi Monica,

This is about the pianos, so I am happy to clarify this for you. Here is the situation.

The fact is that the retailer is buying these pianos sight unseen in almost all cases. I have talked to some people here on the West Coast who do grey-market from Japan. They find a reliable source of pianos and contract with that source. If there are problems with that source, they find another or quit the business. Only one person told me that he had ever made a piano selection trip to Japan, but he did not claim that he stayed in Japan to supervise the refurbishing or whatever you might call it.

If TGG had difficulty getting specific answers from retailers or Internet purveyors about their pianos, it makes perfect sense. If they got really specific, saying, for example, that their pianos were individually selected from light-use private homes and never came from an institutional setting, that would be information that could be put in one ear and passed quickly out the other. It's better that the seller doesn't offer a line of BS to the buyer. If they said they had done the work themselves, that would almost certainly be a lie. No point in doing that.

So what can the buyer be sure of other than a good-as-new looking case or cabinet? The warranty. Grey-market retailers and Internet purveyors alike offer a warranty on these pianos, even if they are sight-unseen to them when they buy them, and even if they don't know the intimate details of the happy home or school that they were plucked from or what work was done on them exactly.

So, no. I don't find the comment about vague information from sellers unusual and I don't find any particular significance to your 'added layer of risk' comment. If you had occasion to see these pianos, they would always look new outside and inside to the untrained eye. If some technical issue had been overlooked in the refurbishing, rebuilding, whatever you call it, it would be tough to spot. But you would have the warranty, which is certainly as trustworthy as any other warranty offered by the seller who provides it. I would guess that some of the retailers on this forum that you wax enthusiastically about either sell or have sold grey-market at some time. Grey-market trade is a fact of life in the piano biz. It's not another rock to be picked up and tossed at Internet vendors.

TGG,

Just saw your post.

NO APOLOGY NECESSARY

These things happen. I'm not a sensitive sort. I just felt there was no point in dealing with this on such a personal level, with you being so hot about it. Actually, there is some humor in visualizing my standing in the middle of a busy highway with my post, if there is a median to keep me safe. As to being called a moron, I've heard much worse.

I never had any agenda in your thread. Your opening post confused me in many ways, but I don't want to go over that anymore.

Enjoy that new Boston, enjoy those parent-contribution checks to junior's college, and don't run in the streets in Burma. (at least right now)

I must agree that although it's the beauty of wide open thought participation, that someone can't offer their thoughts on their experience for the quiet lurkers on this site who actually read and for some reason consider the opinions of those brave enough to post without someone else coming in and seemingly making the original poster feel foolish. It's why only the same few are brave enough to offer up anything.

Turnadot is the guy at the party that runs around listening to everyone's conversation and invokes himself (invited or not) and makes the conversation an argument to which one or two folks hotly engage in while the rest of the group roll their eyes and begin to dissipate and wonder what happened to the original discussion.

I would like to think this site encourages people to share their experience buying or selling or trying pianos, no matter if it totally passes muster with the regular posters on this forum. If we could all get a little Monica in our consideration of others on this forum, we could still have robust discussions without all the incidiary shrapnel flying in every direction.

Why not go bust up the "Adult beginner in Singapore" thread or the "Totally devoted to Chopin" thread? Those folks are way too happy!

Tlluva,
I have to say I am hardly surprised by your belated arrival here. So, if nothing else you are consistent and predictable.

An opening post of a thread is not a private conversation. A member does not need an invitation to participate. In light of your personal interpretation of what a thread should be, I will not participate in any thread you open here without your posted permission.

I have and have never had any issue with TGG's piano selection. He bought a Boston grand that he liked, traded in a Boston vertical that he had liked, and felt comfortable with the deal and the dealer. On the other hand, his post included an opinion of the value of the Internet in researching pianos that I don't share. It also included what I thought was a basic misunderstanding of how the grey-market trade works. I responded to those ideas, and TGG took my response very personally. I think we are past that now. He has offered an apology for a comment made in the heat of the moment, I have told him no apology is necessary, and assured him that I had no personal agenda. I really don't know what purpose it serves for you to editorialize, especially at this point. And I'm not saying that because you are editorializing about me. I would have the same opinion if the center of attention were you, or anyone else. The topics and issues are the thing, not the posters.

If you have a perspective on grey-market pianos, or on the merits of Internet piano providers or piano-related websites in general, please share it. That would be about pianos and perhaps of some use. Trying to re-open a dispute that has been put to rest and to agitate the participants serves no useful purpose, except possibly to you.