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Posted By: Vonette Is this a safe way to position a piano lid? - 04/03/16 09:53 PM
My church owns a fully restored 100-year-old Mason and Hamlin 7-foot grand. A pleasure to play! Recently, a new staff member has removed the music desk and opened the lid to full stick but without folding back the hinged part like you are supposed to. I believe this was done because they like how it looks that way, and its been left that way for at least a couple weeks now. I know that this is not the proper position for a piano lid--the hinged section should be folded back before you open the lid. But my question would be is there any danger in it being this way? Might it fall? Is this putting a strain on the hinges or the lid that might cause damage? I don't want to raise a fuss with the church staff member unnecessarily. I'm simply concerned for the piano. Thanks.
The screws on the lid's piano hinge are under constant strain in this position. I can't imagine that that's good.
Good question...

I've seen grand pianos for sale on eBay or Craigslist with lid open and fly-lid not folded back. I agree that this can put a lot of stress on the fly-lid hinge, and is not the proper lid prop position. It may look nice to some, but I don't think the lid was meant to be propped open this way.

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought was another thread about which lid-prop slot to use; the lid-prop stick should be positioned at 90-degrees in the lid-slot to be safest.

Of course, this is just my opinion. smile

Rick


I entirely agree that putting the lid into this position will put undue strain on the hinge screws. The obvious solution is to nail a few battens to the underside of the lid so that the front part is better supported. Probably it would be a good idea to use nails that are a bit too long so that the protruding ends can be hammered at right angles into the top of the lid. You might also consider putting some epoxy glue onto the battens before they are nailed in, just to be on the safe side.
Or just flip the flap (fly lid) back. 😀


Spoilsport.
Yes, when I googled to try to find out if not folding back the lid was an issue (couldn't find an answer), I did come across discussions about using the proper slot for the proper stick. Interesting thing is that this piano has only one slot even though there is also a short stick. I looked closely at the open lid this morning and could only see the one slot. Perhaps pianos of this vintage were designed to work with the same slot for both sticks? While I have played several different grand pianos in different churches around this area, I don't get to mess with the sticks and haven't taken much notice of them, so I don't have a comparison on how frequently grands have one slot or two. My home piano is a studio rather than a grand.


Hi Rick, I've got a new song (chorus only) for you - sort of a jive number:

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,

Repeat 1st two lines

If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.

Hi Vonette,

I hope that you won't feel that I've been unnecessarily flippant so far. The answers to your questions are first that it is a rotten idea to prop the lid without folding back the front section as the strain on the hinge will sooner or later cause the hinge screws to loosen and the hinge to distort. Second quite a lot of pianos have only one prop button(or slot), you can use it with either stick. Third I play often in churches and I would be quite annoyed to find that the desk had been removed, and I'm sure that other players would feel the same.

Regards, J-C.
Originally Posted by Vonette
Yes, when I googled to try to find out if not folding back the lid was an issue (couldn't find an answer), I did come across discussions about using the proper slot for the proper stick. Interesting thing is that this piano has only one slot even though there is also a short stick. I looked closely at the open lid this morning and could only see the one slot. Perhaps pianos of this vintage were designed to work with the same slot for both sticks? While I have played several different grand pianos in different churches around this area, I don't get to mess with the sticks and haven't taken much notice of them, so I don't have a comparison on how frequently grands have one slot or two. My home piano is a studio rather than a grand.


I would not, under any circumstances, inform the pianists who play this piano, that the lid may break, and fall on them, causing serious injury. To do so is to admit liability, and you will be sued. If you do not warn them and the lid falls off, it is an act of god.

edit: spelling error
JC, no offense taken. It might sound strange to some folks on here that I would even consider not speaking up about this immediately. Unfortunately, I have reason to believe the person responsible will not welcome my input and may even disregard it. )-: I realize also that it sounds strange to leave the music desk off a church piano. I certainly wouldn't want to use it that way! However, strange as this might sound (even downright heretical on here!), the person in question has moved the piano to the side and set it up this way as stage decor. There is no intention for anyone to play it. I was in fact forbidden to move it so it could be used this morning, and since I have no idea where the desk is, I had little choice but to obey. We are expected to use the Roland electric keyboard instead. Even more unfortunately, my piano students are scheduled to use the grand for their recital in a couple weeks, and I do hope there will be no difficulties raised about restoring the desk and re-orienting the piano to a more usable position. Being a church musician is not easy! Sigh.
I have seen old, restored pianos that are "all or nothing." They only have the long stick for fully open or closed with no short stick. Sometimes, I see short sticks that look to have been added, which may account for the single hole. Either stick really should be at a 90-degree angle to the lid, in an appropriate hole.

I dislike playing without the music desk--I'll put the vertical part down when playing from memory, but I'd rather not watch dampers bob up and down. That could really distract young students.

Church politics is tricky, and pushing too far might mean they'll sell the piano and put drums in its place! Sympathy!
Posted By: iLaw Re: Is this a safe way to position a piano lid? - 04/04/16 12:18 AM
Nobody's mentioned it yet, but it sounds from the initial post as if the lid is being kept up all of the time. That's also a bad idea.

Larry.
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Hi Rick, I've got a new song (chorus only) for you - sort of a jive number:

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,

Repeat 1st two lines

If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.


Okay, Jean Claude, April Fools' day was 3 days ago, but I'm game... smile

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,
If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.

It may crack in the front, Jack,
Or it may crack in the back
But if you don’t flip that fly-lid back
You’re gonna get some flack

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,
If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.

Do it now while you still can
Or it may fall and give you a whack
Don’t test your fate or try to debate
Cause Murphy's Law ain’t gonna wait

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,
If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.

Come on now, Jack, and don’t be coy
You know what you should do
If that fly-lid falls and hurts your fingers
You know you may want to sue

Flip that flappin' fly back,
Flip that fly lid back,
If you don't flip that flappin' fly,
Somethin's sure to crack.

grin



Vonette, the hinges that hold the weight of the lid should be more than capable enough of holding the lid up regardless of whether it's unfolded or not, and the long "piano hinge" that keeps the lid sections together should also be sufficient enough to hold them together without pulling out screws [these screws are in what's known as a "shear plane" and are [basically] under the same stress whether the lid is folded or unfolded, or be it up or down], but that's not what bothers me.

What does bother me is in regards to the lid section that is normally folded over upon itself being "flapping in the breeze" free; with it unfolded and extended out towards the keyboard, it is now in direct contact with the 90° corner and edge of the piano's longside, where no such contact is or was ever intended. Through the vibrations associated with playing or even the vibrations of adjacent instruments or speakers, there's a good chance that eventually over time the lid's surface coming in contact with the rim will result in damage to the corner, the underside of the lid, or both. This corner and the corner opposite it are critical to any piano's aesthetics, and both are very easily damaged from any sort of unnecessary contact with anything from above, alongside, or the front of it.

The placement of the lid's 2 or 3 hinges and the rubber bumpers that are usually placed strategically along the surface of the rim's top surface are placed as such to intentionally keep the lid from making direct contact with the top surface of the piano's rim, to keep each of them isolated from one another so as not to cause unwanted vibrations and wear due to any uneven surface touching one another.

Personally, I think to keep the piano's lid in such a position, along with its music desk removed disallowing others to play this instrument, is both unwarranted and naive.

And lastly, if you're involved with your Church's music program you have every right to speak your peace about a musical instrument's position, where such a vital part of it such as it's music desk is located, and lastly, giving input in regards to this musical instrument's proper use without fear of repercussion from anyone. If I were you I would go right to the top of the Church's food chain, then go in prayer to the highest power there is Above, where I'm sure you'll receive an answer on how to preceed in a way that will be satisfying to you and your Church, as you're there to serve, not to be subservient. You might even receive an unexpected blessing in the process wink

Hoping all turns out well grin

Regards,
Andy
Greetings,
There is no right or wrong way. However, the repair for the front lid hinge runs about $ 175 to plug and redress the holes. And, you will need to do that in the future, as this lid position is guaranteed to eventually pull the screws out starting at the top. I have repaired more of these damages than I can remember.
Also, if someone thinks the piano looks better this way, I consider them esthetically challenged AND ignorant. But I do enjoy repairing the damage. Sometimes it is gradual, other times, all it takes is someone leaning on it to rip it loose.
Enjoy,
Not to belabor the point too much, but just a bit of clarification. Leaving the lid in this position does in fact put additional strain on the 5/8" to 3/4" X 4 screws holding the lids together. Since the fold over lid is not being supported on the rim in the same manner as the larger piece there is torque being applied to the hinge from the fold over part, pulling the screws out of the lid. Additionally, these screws are put in end grain wood which is really the worst possible placement of a fastener... hence the dozens of screws. I hate to find music desks removed from pianos because the invariability get broken and/or lost and can cost $400 - $600 to replace. By all means share your concerns and share what you have learned on this thread. If the inevitable damage occurs you at least warned them and they will only have their own stupidity and stubbornness to blame.
Originally Posted by DrewBone

And lastly, if you're involved with your Church's music program you have every right to speak your peace about a musical instrument's position, where such a vital part of it such as it's music desk is located, and lastly, giving input in regards to this musical instrument's proper use without fear of repercussion from anyone.


Ah, if only this were universally true, life would be so much more pleasant. Vonette, I completely understand your concern for discretion. There is nothing quite as tricky as negotiating your way through a maze of art, religion and volunteers without causing hurt feelings. Good luck. Don't worry about the music desk. Choose your battles wisely. But it is a bad idea to keep the lid propped open without folding back the flap. It is your job to approach this person and complement them on how nice the piano looks as they have staged it, but that you consulted some experts and they indicated it was bad for the piano to prop the lid up without folding the flap. (You can truthfully say you hear this from someone who is a great fan of Roland digital pianos.)
You hit the nail on the head when you said to "choose your battles wisely"! That's exactly why I wanted to get some facts before diving into this battle--make sure it is worth fighting. Good advice too on how to broach the subject. Thanks for everyone's advice and expertise!

And the Roland is a nice digital piano. I prefer that to a worn out or badly maintained acoustic any day. There are some nice options for alternative sounds, too. But that M&H grand is such a lovely instrument, I'd choose it over the Roland any day . . . ❤️
anrpiano, respectfully submitted, this is quite an interesting discussion.

We can start with how the lid's fold over piece weighs the same whether it's folded over or not, how different forces are working upon these parts, and lastly how these forces add up and form a direct association with one another.

In scenario #1, in it's normally encountered position of up and folded onto itself, the piano hinge and its fasteners bare four forces; one of torque; the twisting created by the forces applied to it by the fold over piece's weight, gravity, its rectangular shape, and the location of/its farthest distance from the piano hinge and the fold over piece's narrowest dimension, another of tension; the forces attempting to physically pull the screws out of wood, another of compression; the forces applying pressure to maintain the screws position, and lastly; that of shear forces created by gravity and the weight of the fold over piece attempting to shear the piano hinge and its screws. Since the forces required to motivate the fold over piece to shear through the piano hinge and the solid brass screws that attach the lid's two pieces together are insufficiant to do so, these screws instead pull out of the wood if it's not of sufficient density, the size of the screw is insufficient, or the hole(s) in which its been screwed into doesn't offer the required resistance to sustain the weight load because of being stripped from overtightening, from constant removal/replacement, or inadvertant & unnoticed loosening.

Now, in scenario #2, if the lid were unfolded and up, with the placement of the fold over piece beside instead of atop the lid, it's not in a position to create or cause torque, as the loads are only straight down and apart in the forms of shear and tension; the weight of the fold over bearing down due to gravity puts the hinge and the attachment screws in a shear plane, along with the weight of the fold over causing the upper most screws and the screws below it in a continually lessening degree to be in a tension load by creating forces trying to pull the screws out of the wood either side of the piano hinge in which they're screwed into.

In the end we've got a difference of screws being twisted out of wood vs. being pulled out of wood. With the fold over lid folded over there will be two places present to start a catastrophy with the help of torque - the top and bottom of the hinge. Picture the forces applied to the hinge trying to be twisted apart represented by the letter "X" with its pivot point in the center. By contrast, the unfolded fold over has only one place present to start a catastrophy - envisioned like the top of the letter "V." As such, in scenario #1, you've got some screws in tension and some in compression due to torque, while all are in shear; in all, you've got 4 different forces working on the screws at once. In scenario #2, you've got screws in varying degrees of tension, while all are in shear; in all, there are only 2 forces working on the screws at any given time.

A mechanical engineer would have to study both scenarios to come to an absolute conclusion, but I would tend to think that 4 forces working in harmony with one another could accomplish more towards "motivating" things more easily than 2 forces could, but alas, there are so many different variables to consider here that I do believe I'm starting to get a headache.

wink

Regards,
Andy
Vonette, I feel your pain. I'm not a church musician at the moment, but church people are sometimes the most difficult people on the planet to deal with, when it comes to boards and committees. They sort of forget why the church is there, and they spend time and energy on things like making sure things look 'just so', even if that 'just so' is actually causing damage or not in the best interests of the church or anyone in it.

Not all church people are like this, of course, and many are open minded, open hearted, and willing to take advice....

My advice would be to tell someone, gently, that keeping the piano lid open in this position is a compromise to the piano lid, and keeping the lid open all the time is not the best thing to do for the piano, as closing it between uses protects the strings and action from anything that might fall inside it, dust and grime, and reduces the effects of the atmosphere. I would advise the same person that getting a cover for the piano would also be a good idea when it's not being used, and when the sanctuary is in use, the piano can be uncovered if people feel it is unsightly. Remind them that having the music desk on the piano is the best thing for all musicians concerned unless there is a solo recital or concerto taking place and the pianist wishes to play from memory, and finally, that not using the piano at all, and only using the Roland digital, means that the M and H has been nothing more than a vanity project, although you might want to be careful how you word that last sentence.

I have found that being a church musician means you have to be very careful how you talk to others in the church so as not to cause offence, but that they don't seem to bother about how they talk to you in return because 'we've done it this way for 50 years' or something.....
Two points.

With the front part of the lid permanently flapped forward, in addition to the risk/likelihood of the screws pulling out, is there not also a risk of this front part of the lid gradually twisting into a warp? The weight is supported only at the hinge, resulting in a permanent twisting torque.

Secondly, keeping the piano this way shows a disrespect both to the instrument and to any pianists in the congregation. I would cringe if I saw a piano like this. Is this message of disrespect really one that the church is comfortable with?
I realize the mechanics of piano lid hinges is somewhat OT, but I find your explanation regarding the forces on the long piano hinge confusing.

Disregarding for a moment the position of the lid (up on a stick or down), let us consider only the force on the screws.

If the lid is folded back, the hinge has only the force of its own gravity (trivial compared to the mass of the articulated part of the lid) and the torque of the screws holding it in place. I know this to be the case because I own an M&H BB and have removed and replaced the piano hinge and it is easily held in place by tape without screws.

If the lid is unfolded and supported by the rim of the piano, there are no additional forces on the hinge either, except those caused by small anomalies in the eveness of the lid supports.

Now, if you open the lid to the full stick height and the lid is folded back, there is a small additional force trying to slid the lid and hinge sideways due to gravity.

But, if you open the lid to the full stick height and leave the articulated section unfolded, the hinge will now have to carry the full weight of the articulated lid, which is now cantilevered by the hinge. This scenario has IMO never been a part of the design parameters and is the only scenario that will eventually lead to catastrophic failure.

edit: spelling, as usual
I'd hate to be the pianist when this hinged part fell on them. Not only could it cause debilitating injury, but possibly considerable damage to the piano.

I think if you didn't speak up, and someone was injured, you would wish you had said something.

A piano lid is designed that way for a reason.
Posted By: ando Re: Is this a safe way to position a piano lid? - 04/04/16 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by prout
I realize the mechanics of piano lid hinges is somewhat OT, but I find your explanation regarding the forces on the long piano hinge confusing.

Disregarding for a moment the position of the lid (up on a stick or down), let us consider only the force on the screws.

If the lid is folded back, the hinge has only the force of its own gravity (trivial compared to the mass of the articulated part of the lid) and the torque of the screws holding it in place. I know this to be the case because I own an M&H BB and have removed and replaced the piano hinge and it is easily held in place by tape without screws.

If the lid is unfolded and supported by the rim of the piano, there are no additional forces on the hinge either, except those caused by small anomilies in the eveness of the lid supports.

Now, if you open the lid to the full stick height and the lid is folded back, there is a small additional force trying to slid the lid and hinge sideways due to gravity.

But, if you open the lid to the full stick height and leave the articulated section unfolded, the hinge will now have to carry the full weight of the articulated lid, which is now cantilevered by the hinge. This scenario has IMO never been a part of the design parameters and is the only scenario that will eventually lead to catastrophic failure.

edit: spelling, as usual


That is how I assess the situation too, prout. Your description is vastly clearer than Drewbone's.
Respectively answered.

I am not an engineer, so maybe an engineer may "know" better, however, I have been a piano rebuilder for 25+ years and I can only speak to the condition I find lid hinges in when they have had a history of maltreatment.

However, I stand my original assertion. Most makers recess the hinges so this adds to the "shearing" forces which would work to pull the screws out of the lid. The leveraging force which the fold over part can apply to the screws would be pretty significant. It wouldn't take much additional abuse to simply pull all the screws out.

Piano lids were never designed to be used in this fashion.
Originally Posted by anrpiano
Respectively answered.

I am not an engineer, so maybe an engineer may "know" better, however, I have been a piano rebuilder for 25+ years and I can only speak to the condition I find lid hinges in when they have had a history of maltreatment.

However, I stand my original assertion. Most makers recess the hinges so this adds to the "shearing" forces which would work to pull the screws out of the lid. The leveraging force which the fold over part can apply to the screws would be pretty significant. It wouldn't take much additional abuse to simply pull all the screws out.

Piano lids were never designed to be used in this fashion.


I wonder if we are not all speaking about the same scenario. On my lid, the hinge is recessed, but there are no forces acting on the hinge when the lid is folded back. The articulated part of the lid is supported by the main lid, and the hinge serves no function and is under no strain in this situation. If I remove the hinge, the lid pieces remain where they were.

The shearing forces due to the recessed hinge could be a problem if the recess is too deep. Screwing into the end grain, as you mentioned, is a poor way to secure anything.

I assume mistreatment of the piano lid includes the OPs scenario along with dropping the whole lid, not maintaining the security of the hinge screws, etc.
Yes, I suspect we are. Folded back and not lifted.. no problem. Lift it without folding it back... problems. That should be simple enough.

As with much of life, if we can observe a little mistreatment, there is often much more mistreatment going on which we may not be aware of. This is why I tend to react pretty quickly to this kind of stuff, I worry about what else might be happening.
Prout, the long piano hinge and its associated screws are always carrying the complete weight of the articilated section regardless of what position it's in when the lid is up; the forces of gravity, torque, tension, compression, and shear all work together accordingly, and depending soley upon what position the section is in are either applied differently or are omitted completely.

Unfolded it might seem as if the hinge and screws are now baring more of the brunt of the forces working upon it; these parts have always done so, but now there are different forces placed upon them - along with the fact that we're just not used to seeing the lid in this position! But since torque has been eliminated from the menu of forces acting upon the hinge and screws with the lid section unfolded, there is now one less force working on the hinge and screws than there were before the section was unfolded.

I'll agree that if the hinge screw holes were in terrible shape, and there were numerous screws missing or loose, there would undoubtedly be more of a tendency for an unfolded lid section to come crashing down, but on a piano with tight and the complete number of hinge screws present I don't think there would be a catastophic problem other than damage to the piano's case that I mentioned above, coming as a result of the lid making contact with the corner of the piano where the cheek meets the top of the rim on the piano's longside.

Needless to say, I don't see any advantage to this, it certainly wasn't designed to be so, and I'm not championing the idea for one moment. As far as I'm concerned, for aesthetic purposes and not wishing to damage the veneer and finish on my Yamaha in any way, I would never raise the top without first folding it open, and once it was open, that's the way it would stay until I was finished playing and it got closed up proper.

If I were in a position to do so I would be of a mind to dismiss this person that the OP stated is responsible for the above discussion not only on that note, but on being deemed unapproachable as well, for after all, it's a Church, and not a workhouse.

Regards,
Andy
This may be drifting just a bit OT, but I wonder if most piano dealers (all, hopefully) give their customers who purchase new/used grand pianos the proper training in folding back the fly-lid, (or not) and raising/propping the lid properly, short-stick and long-stick?

If not, it'd be a good idea. I have a suspicion a lot of baby-grand/grand piano owners simply do not know the proper procedures for safely raising-propping-lowering the lid.

Rick
Originally Posted by DrewBone
Unfolded it might seem as if the hinge and screws are now baring more of the brunt of the forces working upon it; these parts have always done so, but now there are different forces placed upon them - along with the fact that we're just not used to seeing the lid in this position! But since torque has been eliminated from the menu of forces acting upon the hinge and screws with the lid section unfolded, there is now one less force working on the hinge and screws than there were before the section was unfolded.

I am afraid I don't understand this. Why has torque been eliminated? A diagram might help! When the front section of the lid is not folded back, the lid will surely tend to pull out from the screws?
I must respectfully disagree with your first paragraph.

Looking closely at the hinge/lid interface I see that the hinge indeed supports a portion of the weight of the articulated section, but the weight is transferred directly to the wood due to the fit of the hinge in the recess, and thus the screws bear no strain other than torque. The remainder of the weight is born by the support pads at the other end of the articulated section.

If the hinge and screws were solely supporting the weight of the articulated section of the lid when folded back, then removing the hinge screws would cause a change in the measured weight of the articulated section since some of the weight would have been previously transferred to the main lid by the hinge, but a spring scale test using a small piano hinge simulation shows no change in the measured weight.

As you say, and we all agree, leaving the lid unfolded and up is not appropriate.

Edit: To clarify my thoughts, here is an extreme example -

Articulated Lid folded back on main lid on high stick and hinge removed - Articulated Lid may slide sideways gently.

Articulated Lid unfolded and main lid on high stick and hinge removed - Articulated Lid is now somewhere in the body of the piano or has crushed the pianist's hands.

Putting it bluntly, raising the lid unfolded looks very dumb. I'd guess that many non pianists will also notice something looks wrong even if they don't know exactly what. I think that besides the possible harm that's been mentioned the piano is much less appealing aesthetically this way.
Erroneous opening prevention mechanism for a grand piano lid
US 6506966 B2
ABSTRACT
In an erroneous opening prevention mechanism according to the present invention, a hook and a hook support are loosely engaged with one another when a front lid, folded back on a back lid, is unfolded, or laid flat. If an attempt to raise the whole lid laid flat on a grand piano main body is made, it is impossible to raise the lid due to the locking of the hook and the hook support. When the front lid is folded back onto the back lid, on the contrary, the hook and the hook support are released from one another and, therefore, the whole lid can be raised. Accordingly, the erroneous opening prevention mechanism prevents the whole lid from being raised without first folding back the front lid.

I would suggest that the OP encourage the idiot who positioned the lid this way to LOWER the lid by holding on to the front (hinged) end of the lid with their left hand, while disengaging the prop stick with their right hand. Or better still, have a child do it. It won't end well, I can assure you.

This folks, is the primary danger involved in raising a grand piano lid in a way it never was intended to be raised. Talk about liability ....GEEZ.




Originally Posted by Rickster
This may be drifting just a bit OT, but I wonder if most piano dealers (all, hopefully) give their customers who purchase new/used grand pianos the proper training in folding back the fly-lid, (or not) and raising/propping the lid properly, short-stick and long-stick?

If not, it'd be a good idea. I have a suspicion a lot of baby-grand/grand piano owners simply do not know the proper procedures for safely raising-propping-lowering the lid.

Rick


Rick - good idea - though both of the dealers of the grands I bought checked that I knew the correct use of short/long (and in case of Schimmel, medium) stick. And in the case of the Grotrian, the importance of parking the music rest completely back when folding the piano (there is no extra clearance).
Originally Posted by Carey

I would suggest that the OP encourage the idiot who positioned the lid this way to LOWER the lid by holding on to the front (hinged) end of the lid with their left hand, while disengaging the prop stick with their right hand. Or better still, have a child do it. It won't end well, I can assure you.

This folks, is the primary danger involved in raising a grand piano lid in a way it never was intended to be raised. Talk about liability ....GEEZ.





Oh my! Very good point! I had not thought of that--I suppose because I am too familiar with pianos to ever consider doing such a thing, but you are right that someone just might try that.
Originally Posted by Vonette
Originally Posted by Carey

I would suggest that the OP encourage the idiot who positioned the lid this way to LOWER the lid by holding on to the front (hinged) end of the lid with their left hand, while disengaging the prop stick with their right hand. Or better still, have a child do it. It won't end well, I can assure you.

This folks, is the primary danger involved in raising a grand piano lid in a way it never was intended to be raised. Talk about liability ....GEEZ.


Oh my! Very good point! I had not thought of that--I suppose because I am too familiar with pianos to ever consider doing such a thing, but you are right that someone just might try that.
Most likely some poor, unsuspecting soul who doesn't know anything about pianos. smile
Originally Posted by prout
I must respectfully disagree with your first paragraph.

Looking closely at the hinge/lid interface I see that the hinge indeed supports a portion of the weight of the articulated section, but the weight is transferred directly to the wood due to the fit of the hinge in the recess, ....


I think what you're saying here is that with the fly lid in the down position and the main lid up, the hinges of the fly lid are flange to flange, and the wood touches across the bottom edge of the interface between the fly and main lids.

That results in the fly lid acting as a lever, trying to rip its hinge screws out, until the bottom front corner touches the case. After a while, that makes the screws loosen and strip out.

Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by prout
I must respectfully disagree with your first paragraph.

Looking closely at the hinge/lid interface I see that the hinge indeed supports a portion of the weight of the articulated section, but the weight is transferred directly to the wood due to the fit of the hinge in the recess, ....


I think what you're saying here is that with the fly lid in the down position and the main lid up, the hinges of the fly lid are flange to flange, and the wood touches across the bottom edge of the interface between the fly and main lids.

That results in the fly lid acting as a lever, trying to rip its hinge screws out, until the bottom front corner touches the case. After a while, that makes the screws loosen and strip out.



Actually, I was thinking more about when the main lid is resting on the piano rim and the fly lid is folded back. In this case the hinge is open and transfers a portion of the fly lid weight to the main lid through the hinge. But, since the hinge is recessed, most of the weight is born by the hinge structure and not the screws.

You are correct that when the fly lid is not folded back and the main lid is open, the fly lid is a lever with its fulcrum being coincident with the hinge - a very dangerous condition.
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