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Posted By: Mcnuffles Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 07:45 AM
Hi guys, I have played Yamaha and Kawai pianos and I keep coming back to Brodmann. I am currently looking at a PE 187. I see posts on piano world going way back with people asking opinions about Brodmann pianos. So did any of you purchase? Are you still happy? How is everything holding up? Any regrets?

This is a serious lifetime purchase for me and I'd really love and deeply appreciate your input. Thanks smile
Not giving anything away but when I say lifetime purchase I prob mean (hopefully) 30-40 years before I am carted off to the nursing home....
As a former Brodmann owner, and bear in mind I bought the piano 9 years ago and since then there have reportedly been improvements to the pianos, I would ask yourself what kind of use the piano is going to get.

If you are an occasional player, not engaging in heavy practice or teaching work, then yes, the piano will probably be fine and last a good long time before it requires any major work. How long is too difficult to say, but it's too difficult to say for any piano, and depends on the maintenance and the atmospheric conditions in which it is being kept. Hopefully 10 years anyway, and after 10 years of good maintenance and good humidity and moderate playing, it is still going strong, it will probably last another few years before you start needing to think about replacing any parts if at all.

However, if you're looking for a piano to get you through conservatoire training, or you are a going to practice a lot (3 to 5 hours a day, maybe more), and/or you have a rigorous teaching schedule, I'd encourage you to reconsider your options. As I've said, I don't know what the modern Brodmann pianos are like, and 10 years is a long time in Chinese manufacturing R and D, so someone else could chip in here. On my own Brodmann, the key bushings wore out in less than 2 years, and the action started to fail in less than 5 years (I had it regulated annually, and it was kept in good relative humidity), and the capo bar went in 5 years, causing string breakage. However, that doesn't mean that all Brodmanns are like that and it certainly doesn't mean that the present crop of instruments is like that. Best bet is to hope that some technicians who have serviced these pianos over the past ten years chip in and tell you what's good and bad about them.

For heavy work I'd recommend a minimum of a Yamaha C3 or Kawai RX3, oh and I believe that the Feurich/Hailun pianos are also proving themselves to be good in adverse situations over long periods of time, so you might want to look at something like a Feurich/Hailun 178. I use both names because they are virtually identical pianos sold under both names.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 04:17 PM
That's a very helpful post Joe, although a bit disappointing to Mcnuffles,I suspect. It may also cause a few dealers here to offer stories of their more positive experiences, explanations of how much better Brodmann actions are now, or information about the 10 year warranty. We'll see...

Before you posted, I had thought Brodmann used a Renner action, but your post made me look and apparently that's only on their AS series or the PE228, and those retail for double the price of the PE line.

May I ask if you were playing several hours every day, and what happened to your piano when those items started to fail? Brodmann claims a 10 year warranty. Did they pay to have a a tech come out and replace the bushings, did they replace the action, and was the capo bar something they could fix?

Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Toddler2
Did they pay to have a a tech come out and replace the bushings, did they replace the action, and was the capo bar something they could fix?]


I could be wrong, but I don't think key bushings, hammers or other general "wear" parts are covered under a manufacturer's warranty. I think the only things covered are catastrophic failures on cast-iron plates, sound-boards, etc...

And, even if they are, breakage and wearing out are two different things. For example, is wearing out an action due to heavy playing considered a defect in materials or workmanship? Sounds like a good argument for the manufacturer to not replace these normal wear parts under warranty.

For consumers interested in buying an expensive new acoustic piano, I'd read the manufacturer's warranty really well, and ask questions before purchase.

Just my .02.

Rick
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 07:42 PM
That's a good point on breaking vs wearing out. Still, 2 to 5 years ...
Also, Joe may take exception to you implying his playing wears out actions and induces vomiting

Originally Posted by Rickster
breakage and wearing out are two different things. For example, is wearing out an action due to heaving playing considered a defect in materials or workmanship? Sounds like a good argument for the manufacturer to not replace these normal wear parts under warranty.
Rick
Posted By: Ataru074 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 08:48 PM
A piano should have very little wear if used by a pro pianist for10 years. At least in the general mechanics. Regulations and refilling of hammers excluded.

2 to 5 years is not a piano. It is a piece of furniture shaped to resemble a piano.
Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Toddler2
Also, Joe may take exception to you implying his playing wears out actions and induces vomiting

Not sure where this came from... especially the vomiting part. Didn't I call it puke (as we say here in the south)? grin

Joe knows me better than that. smile

Rick
I don't take exception to anything Rickster said, but I think he meant heavy playing rather than heaving LOL!

In the UK, the warranty on the Brodmann was only 5 years, and the manufacturer at that time, the representative in the UK who is no longer with Brodmann, was incredibly unhelpful when it came to honouring the warranty, as was the dealer (who has now ceased trading it has to be said).

In the end, when I bought my current piano, I sold the Brodmann, and a very good friend who is a technician did a lot of sterling work on the Brodmann preparing it for sale, making good the capo bar, doing a thorough regulation and knocking on of the keys (I'm not sure what that is.....), voicing, tuning, and some re-centering, and it is now with a very happy owner who is an occasional player.

I was practising a lot on the piano and it just couldn't cope.

But as I said, that's ONE Brodmann out of however many there have been made. I know one other pianist who has a Brodmann the same age as mine, and he's trying to sell it because he's not happy with the action, but I don't know if his piano has developed problems or is just not quite what he wants anymore.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 10:44 PM
Hi Joe,
Glad you caught that I was joking about his typo smile

Heavy playing or not, 2 to 5 years isn't very long. You are indicating a sampling size of 2 with both having action issues. I agree it's not a reasonable sample size, but one of the concerns I always have with wooden products from China is that importing high quality wood is expensive. It offsets a lot of China's labor savings. On something like a piano action, there's a fair bit of wasted wood, so the cost increase for high quality wood is significant. My son's drums are made in China, but use wood imported from the US and Africa. Chinese craftsmen can be very skilled, so maybe Renner actions just use higher quality wood? Either way, I wouldn't consider a Brodmann a lifetime pianos based on what you're saying.


McNuffles, in my PM, I had asked the age of the Brodmann you were looking at. How old is it, and how much are they asking for it? Is it more than $10k?


Posted By: Mcnuffles Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/18/16 11:13 PM
Hi everyone thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them. The Brodmann that I am looking at is the PE 187. It's new and it's selling in Australia for about 19,000 AUD. I am doing a performing dip and I teach a few students a week too. The reason why I keep coming back to the Brodmann pianos is the action. I have chronic tendinosis. I have played so so many pianos the past 3 weeks.
When I play a piano that I have found an action I like (they are always now second hand pianos where is action is relaxed a bit) I have had major flare ups afterwards. I had played the Brodmann pianos initially and went back again yesterday played for a hour an no flare up. The action really suits me.
It's actually a beautiful looking piano, but I am not buying a piece of furniture. With my hand (well arm) problems by Rach playing days are over. Technical work I find difficult (the most technically demanding work I am doing is the Bach e minor Toccata, the final fugue is killing me!).
This is my one chance in a lifetime buy to a good piano. If I buy the Brodmann my resale options are going to be limited. I can't afford to stuff it up from so many angles.
Thanks everyone
I guess, if the piano dealer in Melbourne is reading this he will be having a chuckle smile
Hi Mcnuffles,

To be honest, I wasn't originally a fan of the PE187 on first impression - it was probably a combination of the disproportionate amount of hype surrounding the brand on this forum (I've been left wanting more than once when comparing a piano against the flowery prose bestowed upon it by dealers who sell them), a less than thorough amount of dealer prep, and placement in an environment with inadequate maintenance and humidity control.

The last two NAMM shows, I've really come to like this model an awful lot for the price, and it seems particularly strong among the Brodmann model lineup. I don't have any long-term ownership data, but oftentimes the quality of the dealer (and the distributor for a given country) is critical to the after-sales support experience. If you love the piano and the dealer has a strong reputation, it's certainly worth considering for purchase.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Hi Mcnuffles,To be honest, I wasn't originally a fan of the PE187 on first impression - it was probably a combination of the disproportionate amount of hype surrounding the brand on this forum (I've been left wanting more than once when comparing a piano against the flowery prose bestowed upon it by dealers who sell them),...
Hype? What hype?? grin
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
If you love the piano and the dealer has a strong reputation, it's certainly worth considering for purchase.


Seems like a lot of people like it's tone and it's action when new.
But the question is, is it worth considering as a 40 year purchase?
Posted By: Chu Bun Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 01:18 AM
We almost bought a Brodmann upright a few months back. We really like the action and the warm sound, but in the end decided against it because of the unclear warranty and annoying salesperson. At first the salesperson said it's 10 years transferable manufacture warranty. Then I heard from another shop (who also selling Brodmanns, but 500 miles away) that Vienna Brodmann filed for bankruptcy 2 yrs ago, so warranty would be honor by the seller. Then another dealer said that Brodmann has ceased production of their pianos, so procuring parts maybe a problem in the future. Since this dealer tried to sell us another brand, this may be untrue but simply scare tactic. Anyway, I went back to the original dealer with this information, but they kept on giving me the runaround. In the end, they said they didn't know and I would need to call their distributor to find out. Furthermore, the salesperson told me I should not ask too many questions, nobody knew what the future hold, if I liked the piano I should bought and enjoyed it now, blah blah blah. Needless to day, I was not very happy and decided to buy from the competitor.
Originally Posted by Chu Bun
Then another dealer said that Brodmann has ceased production of their pianos...


Untrue. They had a very healthy display of almost their whole lineup at the NAMM show this year.
Hi Mcnuffles,

If you really like the sound and action of the piano, I would say go for it. A sample of two pianos with problems doesn't say much about the quality of a whole brand or even model.

On the other hand, if you ever choose to buy another grand piano in a store, you could ask them to regulate the action to make it feel lighter/closer to your preference. On my baby grand, a slight hammer mass reduction made a big difference and techs say this also makes the action parts last longer.
Since Brodmann is a fairly readily available piano where you are, Mcnuffles, I wouldn't pull the trigger just yet.

I take on board what Terminaldegree is saying, because (s)he has a lot of experience with pianos in a performing and teaching context, and has a lot of valuable advice regarding most instruments available new today.

I think that on my own Brodmann, a lot of the issues were to do with the way that the action was designed. When it went in for the servicing before I sold it, the technician who serviced it said that while it wasn't the best action he'd worked on, it was far from bad, and the problems were more down to rushed workmanship in the first place. My own example had a bit of a lacklustre treble, although the rest of the piano was good sounding. Of course it sounded excellent when it was new, and it had a good touch, and that's what attracted me to it in the first place, but there were things about it that quickly showed up as substandard. But that was 9 years ago, and my friend's piano was bought 9 years ago, and things have moved on, and it's true, two pianos is not a fair sized sample. For instance, I've played more than a couple of chronic Steinways, a couple of duff Bösendorfers, at least one brand new incredibly weak Blüthner, and even a Fazioli that just annoyed me more than anything else - and these are the cream of the crop. It happens.

The warranty is sometimes unclear, but you need to talk to your dealer about it should you decide to buy the piano. I can't honestly say if the piano will be fine for you or not, because I can't see the piano in the flesh, and even if I could, I couldn't predict its performance over the long term. The dealer back-up and prep is really important on every piano - regardless of which tier it sits in - and you should always buy from a dealer you trust.

I'm a bit worried about your tendonitis. What has caused it? Is it from playing? Are there other issues causing it? You should really consider looking into the issue more. Start by talking to laguna_greg on here - he's an expert in the treatment of RSI, and have a look at the Taubman approach to piano playing which has proved invaluable to many people suffering the same thing.

A lot of pianos can come across as having a stiff or heavy action, and a lot of the time it's something simple. I've played a few Yamahas for instance, in the past, that start out as feeling pretty heavy but over time turn out to be smooth and light, and a technician told me once that on Yamaha, the capstans were rough to start with and polished down after a few months of playing (true or not? I don't know, someone else here can verify). Mostly, it's rough regulation. Sometimes it can even be the room a piano is in, or the tuning of a piano, can all contribute to the perceived touch of the instrument. Of course neither the room nor the tuning have any influence on the actual touch weight, but it affects how we hear the piano, and how we respond to it.

Good luck and keep us posted. The Brodmann may well be fine, it's good that you are giving it serious consideration, and it's also good that you are looking for the cons as well as the pros, it means that you are carefully weighing up your options.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 04:56 PM
Given this:
Originally Posted by Mcnuffles
This is a serious lifetime purchase for me and I'd really love and deeply appreciate your input. Thanks smile
Not giving anything away but when I say lifetime purchase I prob mean (hopefully) 30-40 years before I am carted off to the nursing home....


I find it hard to believe anyone is actually saying buying a Brodmann is a reasonable idea based the information in this thread. We have zero positive long term outcomes from anyone. I should add, I'm impressed the dealer who sell these are not jumping in and telling stories about happy customers. Kudos to them for respecting the OP's request.

Mcnuffles,
You mention tendinosis. (Ok, I think you said tendinitis, but it's probably tendinosis)
How big are your hands? Span thumb to pinky when stretched open...
Todd
Toddler,
Exactly how many "long term outcomes " are you basing that supposition upon?
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 05:05 PM
100% of the data currently provided after over 600 views of this thread. That's 2. Not bad in my line of work.

If we accept a 10% failure rate in 10 years, which is high in my opinion, we now need 18 positive experiences of 10 years or more.

Even if we only take Joe's experience and discount his reporting of his friend's experience, we still need 9 positive outcomes. Do you see any?

Todd
Posted By: Ataru074 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 05:44 PM
I don't like to chip in with hearsay, but another (former) broadmann user (from Italy) traded his own for a yamaha C3 after experiencing similar issues and abnormal wear and tear in the first three years. Conservatory student, so, a normal use for a piano.
He was absolutely in love with the tone of the piano to the point of preferring it to kawai and yamaha as he got it, he ended up selling it back and getting something more "standard" for the use he needed.

I had a similar impression about the tone, absolutely stunning for the price point...
Originally Posted by Toddler2
100% of the data currently provided after over 600 views of this thread. That's 2. Not bad in my line of work.

If we accept a 10% failure rate in 10 years, which is high in my opinion, we now need 18 positive experiences of 10 years or more.

Even if we only take Joe's experience and discount his reporting of his friend's experience, we still need 9 positive outcomes. Do you see any?

Todd


Well I don't know what your line of work is but I imagine that it has little to do with mathematics.
Posted By: Ivan M. Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 08:03 PM
Good thread. Good quantitative reasoning, Todd.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 08:07 PM
And you'd be wrong, Jean. I work on clinical trials.

I never claimed we have any statistical power, but what we have is 3 people with no obvious vested interest in saying ill about Brodmann, who are reporting poor outcomes.

Based on the OP's request, he wants to know if the Brodmann piano is likely to be a good lifetime purchase. He said 30 to 40 years. We can't look at 30 years. The company isn't that old. But we can look for some reports of Brodmann piano's lasting 10 years. We have 82,000 members.

When I typed that post you don't like, we had two reports of Brodmann piano's that failed to function acceptably after less than 10 years. If we accept a 10 year failure rate of 10 percent as acceptable, then what we need now is reports of 18 Brodmann pianos in good functional condition after 10 years. 18 more reports will result in a sample size of 20. 2 failures in a sample of 20 is 10%. I kept the math pretty simple Jean, what fault do you see in it? Do you want to lower the bar, ask for positive outcomes in only 5 years? We can do that. We're still at 0. 3 years? Still at zero.

Instead we now have 3 reports of Brodmann pianos that appear to have failed in less than 10 years, and no positive results. If this were a review site where grouchy people go to complain, I'd attribute that to a sampling bias. Do you think we have a sampling bias here? I don't.

If I were Mcnuffles, I'd be very concerned that we have zero of people saying:

"My buddy has had a Brodmann for 10 years and he says it's holding up great."
or
"My Brodmann still sounds and plays as wonderful as it did the day I bought it 8 years ago."
That's what I'd say about our M&H AA. Has your Sauter requires a major action rebuild in less than 10 years?

Did you read about the Bial trial in France a month or so ago? If this were a clinical trial, and our first 3 subjects died, we'd be unlikely to recommend a 4th person enroll. Our first 3 Brodmann's died in under 10 years. Do you want to recommend McNuffles buy one as a 30 to 40 year piano?

Posted By: Ivan M. Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Toddler2
...I work on clinical trials.
...


...was my very first thought wink
Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 09:15 PM
Toddler2, I think your math here is interesting, and you'll get no argument from me. But I don't think Jean Claude meant any offense when he said your occupation may have little to do with math, nor was he critical of your posts in any way. Nor did I get the impression he didn't like your post.

At least that was my take on his comments here:
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Well I don't know what your line of work is but I imagine that it has little to do with mathematics.

Besides, being from France, his comments may have been a complement. smile

Just my .02...

Rick
Originally Posted by Toddler2
I find it hard to believe anyone is actually saying buying a Brodmann is a reasonable idea based the information in this thread.

Following the same "logic", if we have 0 Fazioli owners on PW who posted how happy they were with their purchase after 5 years of ownership, can we conclude anything about Fazioli pianos? IMHO it's rather ridiculous.

Satisfied customers tell three friends, angry customers tell 3000
Posted By: Ataru074 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Toddler2
I find it hard to believe anyone is actually saying buying a Brodmann is a reasonable idea based the information in this thread.


Following the same "logic", we have 0 Fazioli owners on PW who posted how happy they were with their purchase after 5 years of ownership. To conclude anything about Fazioli pianos because of that is pure nonsense.

Satisfied customers tell three friends, angry customers tell 3000


At least one person here has direct experience another 2 have an indirect experience about failure. Nobody reported a "win"... It's a pretty bad outcome.

People had no problem bashing S&S issues over the years and the issues with the teflon bushing, the too hard capo bars, inconsistent quality control, etc. are well known. but at the same time there are also a lot of user very happy about their S&S.

According to your logic, buying a Fazioli is, at worst, a jump in the dark, there are no good report, no bad report.
you have purely a 50/50 chance of good/bad.

3 bad report, 0 good report. you have a 75% chance of being a disappointed user, a 25% of being a happy user.

Let me run a similar thread and see what happens.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 10:28 PM
Ivan, I'm impressed.

Rick, you may be correct, in which case, Jean Claude, my apologies if I was too sensitive.

Bosendorff, we don't have a sample size of zero. We have a sample size of 3. Not great, but infinitely better than zero. If 5 people chimed in here that they had experience with Fazioli's, 3 said they were falling apart after 5 years, we would take that very seriously. (Well, probably we would not believe it of Fazioli's) In this case, all we're missing is the two positive responses to equal the 60% failure rate of that example. Our sample is 3 bad, 0 good. If we get 3 good reports, we will still have a 50% failure rate, and I'd still recommend against a Brodmann as a 30 year investment. I'd want 27 positives now to offset our 3 failures. I'm not saying a Brodmann is a bad piano. Aparently they play and sound awesome when new. All I'm saying is that at this time our data indicates it's not a long lasting piano, and that is what the thread is about.
I happen to own a Chinese piano. I'm happy with it for the price I paid and zero problem after 4 years. I never started a topic about it on PW and probably never will, because I know lots of people here enjoy bashing Chinese pianos. So that's one example showing that one can't conclude much if nobody wrote a positive review about a product. I'm certainly not the only person on the Web to own a product and not writing a positive review about it somewhere.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 10:35 PM
Hi Ataru,
You're close, ish. You need 1 good report for your math to work on the 75:25 odds. On the zero sample, we can't say 50:50. We can't say anything.

Originally Posted by Ataru074


According to your logic, buying a Fazioli is, at worst, a jump in the dark, there are no good report, no bad report.
you have purely a 50/50 chance of good/bad.

3 bad report, 0 good report. you have a 75% chance of being a disappointed user, a 25% of being a happy user.

Let me run a similar thread and see what happens.
Posted By: Ataru074 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/19/16 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Toddler2
Hi Ataru,
You're close, ish. You need 1 good report for your math to work on the 75:25 odds. On the zero sample, we can't say 50:50. We can't say anything.

The assumption is that the user will buy one and report back, therefore the best case scenario is 75:25. the worst obviously is 100:0
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Toddler2
I find it hard to believe anyone is actually saying buying a Brodmann is a reasonable idea based the information in this thread.

Following the same "logic", if we have 0 Fazioli owners on PW who posted how happy they were with their purchase after 5 years of ownership, can we conclude anything about Fazioli pianos? IMHO it's rather ridiculous.

Satisfied customers tell three friends, angry customers tell 3000
I agree the logic is wrong.

1. Since when is a sample size of two(not including the hearsay one)relevant?
2. It's possible that there are only 2 Brodmann owners at PW. Or maybe 10 Brodmann owners but most of them never read this thread.
3. Just because there have been a lot of views it doesn't mean that they are from different people. In fact, the opposite is very likely true. It's also possible that except for the two owners mentioned in the thread none of those viewing this thread own Brodmann.
4. The fact that a medical study was stopped is irrelevant. That was a study and this isn't, but more importantly lives were involved in the medical study.
5. Quoting the total number of PW members is irrelevant. Does anyone think more than 1% viewed this post. How many of them, IF ANY, own a Brodmann.
6. It's possible that some Brodmann owners who've had no problems read this thread but chose not to post for a variety of reasons.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I agree the logic is wrong.

1. Since when is a sample size of two(not including the hearsay one)relevant.
2. It's possible that there are only 2 Brodmann owners at PW. Or maybe 10 Brodmann owners but most of them never read this thread.
3. Just because there have been a lot of views it doesn't mean that they are from different people. In fact, the opposite is very likely true. It's also possible that except for the two owners mentioned in the thread none of those viewing this thread own Brodmann.
4. The fact that a medical study was stopped is irrelevant. That was a study and this isn't, but more importantly lives were involved in the medical study.
5. Quoting the total number of PW members is irrelevant. Does anyone think more than 1% viewed this post. How many of them, IF ANY, own a Brodmann.
6. It's possible that some Brodmann owners who've had no problems read this thread but chose not to post for a variety of reasons.

Exactly.
Toddler,

I just find it interesting you're so passionate to trash something YOU'VE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE. Loudly rehashing the opinions of 2 others as gospel seems suspicious, and doesn't seem reasonable to this conservatory-trained pianist who never had to take a college-level math class...

Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 12:17 AM
Pianoloverus

1. Since when is a sample size of two(not including the hearsay one)relevant.
We have already noted there's not a lot of statistical power here, but early data is still data.

2. It's possible that there are only 2 Brodmann owners at PW. Or maybe 10 Brodmann owners but most of them never read this thread.
Very possible, but there is still no obvious sampling bias involved. This isn't a complaint site, it's a piano enthusiast site, and again, none of the negative reports have come from people who are bashing the brand. Joe and Ataru are offering the only information they have that may be useful to the OP.

3. Just because there have been a lot of views it doesn't mean that they are from different people. In fact, the opposite is very likely true. It's also possible that except for the two owners mentioned in the thread none of those viewing this thread own Brodmann.
Absolutely true, but the title is a direct request for feedback from Brodmann owners. One would hope anyone who sees it, who has relevant information, will chime in. You seem to imply in your 6th point that you doubt happy owners would speak up, but you don't offer us a reasonable hypothesis on why that would be the case.

4. The fact that a medical study was stopped is irrelevant. That was a study and this isn't, but more importantly lives were involved in the medical study.
I said that. Nobody is going to die. But also, nobody has a horse in this race. We're not trying to sell someone in Australia a piano. We're just hoping he gets one he loves that holds up for 30 or 40 years.

5. Quoting the total number of PW members is irrelevant. Does anyone think more than 1% viewed this post. How many of them, IF ANY, own a Brodmann.
I agree with this. My apologies. I think I did it in response to an implication that this is not a good place for someone to try and gather useful data. You're going to be hard pressed to find a better place for the OP to ask for people's experience with Brodmann. Maybe the piano technician's guild website would be another good place to ask.

6. It's possible that some Brodmann owners who've had no problems read this thread but chose not to post for a variety of reasons.
[/quote]

It seems unlikely to me that a happy owner who sees the title is less likely to contribute, than a former owner who was incredibly careful not to brand bash.


Terminadegree, I'm not bashing Brodmann. I'm just pointing out that the feedback we have so far does not support the conclusion that their pianos meet Mcnuffles requested criteria. You and Bosendorff and PianoLoverUS seem to be saying that while you have no positive feedback to offer, Mcnuffle should ignore the negative feedback and spend all his money on the Brodmann. I have no experience with the brand, so all I'm saying is, so far, the feedback is uniformly supporting not buying the Brodmann. Mcnuffles didn't ask for feedback on whether it sounds great now. He already said he likes the tone and touch right now.

I think that if Mcnuffles were to say, "I have $15,000 now, and want a new piano that sounds great and has a fantastic touch. I loved the Brodmann I played, and I won't mind if in 4 years I have to put a few thousand dollars into it to have the action re-built. Do any owners or people who have experience think should buy it" That we'd all agree that Joe and Ataru's feedback would support his buying the Brodmann.
But that is not what Mcnuffles asked. He didn't ask if he should buy a piano we already know he likes a lot. He asked if people who have experience with the brand think it's likely to last 30 or 40 years.

I'm not passionately trashing a brand. I'm passionately saying stop telling him he should ignore the only feedback he has and spend $15,000 of his hard earned money.
Posted By: iLaw Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 12:32 AM
Has Norbert been baninnated? How has he not weighed in on this conversation by now?

Larry.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 12:37 AM
Larry, I think he's respecting the OP's request. It would be nice if he directed some owners he knows at Pianoworld to this thread.

I want to add one more detail for those of you who think I'm against Brodmann.

I asked above about Mcnuffle's hand size for a reason. The data we have now makes me think the Brodmann is a great short term piano as is, but it may have an action that doesn't meet the 30-40 year criteria.

If Mcnuffle has small hands, I was going to ask if he/she thought they might be able to purchase a Steinbuhler action in a few years. That would potentially turn the Brodmann into their ideal piano. Great tone and touch right now, and a potentially fragile action wouldn't matter because Mcnuffle could replace it in a few years with a better one that could help with the tendonosis.

No brand bashing, just respecting Joe and Ataru and Mcnuffles.
Originally Posted by Toddler2
You seem to imply in your 6th point that you doubt happy owners would speak up, but you don't offer us a reasonable hypothesis on why that would be the case.

Read my earlier post #2512612.
Posted By: iLaw Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Toddler2

If Mcnuffle has small hands, I was going to ask if he/she thought they might be able to purchase a Steinbuhler action in a few years. That would potentially turn the Brodmann into their ideal piano. Great tone and touch right now, and a potentially fragile action wouldn't matter because Mcnuffle could replace it in a few years with a better one that could help with the tendonosis.


What an intriguing idea. I'd be tempted to go straight to the Steinbuhler.

Larry.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 01:00 AM
Ataru, I see what you were trying to say. Just a language thing then. You're wording implied we could predict a 75% chance of failure with 3 bads. What you meant was that if Mcnuffles has a positive outcome, he/she can only improve the odds to 75:25.

Bosendorff,
If you were to read all my comments on Chinese pianos, you'd find I'm not biased against them. I have concerns about the quality of the lumber used and it's longevity, but I think China has many skilled laborers. They can build parts for the space shuttle, they can build pianos. But we're not bashing Brodmann, we're just looking at how the feedback we're getting on them in response to the OP's question should be interpreted. Everyone says they sound beautiful and play well when new, and nobody has been bashing them. Related to this:

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
I happen to own a Chinese piano. I'm happy with it for the price I paid and zero problem after 4 years. I never started a topic about it on PW and probably never will, because I know lots of people here enjoy bashing Chinese pianos. So that's one example showing that one can't conclude much if nobody wrote a positive review about a product. I'm certainly not the only person on the Web to own a product and not writing a positive review about it somewhere.


You not starting a topic here isn't relevant to this situation. I don't know what piano make you have, but if you saw a thread where someone asked for feedback on that specific brand, I hope you'd report your positive experience with the brand. I hope you'd report any negative experiences too, like Joe did. Joe NEVER bashed the Brodmann brand. Neither did Ataru074. Both of them actually seem reluctant to report anything bad, I suspect because they don't want Mcnuffles to feel bad if he decides to buy the new Brodmann he likes so much.

I on the other hand, have no concerns about looking at the data, however limited it is, objectively. Nobody is going to die based on Mcnuffles future piano choice, so this isn't as critical as early data in my line of work, but if this were a clinical trial with serious consequences, you wouldn't blow off 3 bad reports and 0 good ones.
Originally Posted by Toddler2
Pianoloverus

1. Since when is a sample size of two(not including the hearsay one)relevant.
We have already noted there's not a lot of statistical power here, but early data is still data.

2. It's possible that there are only 2 Brodmann owners at PW. Or maybe 10 Brodmann owners but most of them never read this thread.
Very possible, but there is still no obvious sampling bias involved. This isn't a complaint site, it's a piano enthusiast site, and again, none of the negative reports have come from people who are bashing the brand. Joe and Ataru are offering the only information they have that may be useful to the OP.

3. Just because there have been a lot of views it doesn't mean that they are from different people. In fact, the opposite is very likely true. It's also possible that except for the two owners mentioned in the thread none of those viewing this thread own Brodmann.
Absolutely true, but the title is a direct request for feedback from Brodmann owners. One would hope anyone who sees it, who has relevant information, will chime in. You seem to imply in your 6th point that you doubt happy owners would speak up, but you don't offer us a reasonable hypothesis on why that would be the case.

4. The fact that a medical study was stopped is irrelevant. That was a study and this isn't, but more importantly lives were involved in the medical study.
I said that. Nobody is going to die. But also, nobody has a horse in this race. We're not trying to sell someone in Australia a piano. We're just hoping he gets one he loves that holds up for 30 or 40 years.

5. Quoting the total number of PW members is irrelevant. Does anyone think more than 1% viewed this post. How many of them, IF ANY, own a Brodmann.
I agree with this. My apologies. I think I did it in response to an implication that this is not a good place for someone to try and gather useful data. You're going to be hard pressed to find a better place for the OP to ask for people's experience with Brodmann. Maybe the piano technician's guild website would be another good place to ask.

6. It's possible that some Brodmann owners who've had no problems read this thread but chose not to post for a variety of reasons.

It seems unlikely to me that a happy owner who sees the title is less likely to contribute, than a former owner who was incredibly careful not to brand bash.[/quote]I don't think your responses are at all relevant to my points.

For #1. "What does early data is still data" have to do with the sampling size being absurdly small? Nothing!If some medical study was looking at 500 people would they draw a conclusion based on the first 2 even though the first 2 were "still data"?

For #2. "sampling bias" not being present(according to you) has nothing to do with the fact that the sample is so small as to be meaningless.

For #3. You used the fact that there are 68,000 PW members as part of your argument implying that none of so many of them writing something positive was relevant. First of all there are about 100 active members at PW, active meaning they regularly read and post. Many people don't want to get involved in an argument pro or con is one of many reasons why someone who had a positive experience with Brodmann might not post.

For #4. You didn't mention the medical study being stopped after only a handful of people's results were in for no reason. You were trying to use it to say that even a very small sample is relevant. But lives were involved so that situation is very different. The idea(not factual) that "nobody has a horse in this race" has nothing to do with the fact that your medical study was irrelevant.

For #5. Actually PW is not a particularly good place to gather data, although it may be better than most other places since there are so few similar sites. why is it a very useful place for this? There are only a small number of regular posters. Dealers(with some obvious exceptions) and owners are very likely to be biased in their support or non support.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by iLaw

What an intriguing idea. I'd be tempted to straight to the Steinbuhler.
Larry.


Well, first, we don't actually know if Mcnuffles hands are small, so we don't know if there's any reason to believe a 15/16ths or 7/8ths keyboards would help the tendinosis.

Also, a Steinbuhler is too expensive at this time. The action price is the total current budget. Someone can ping Rich G if it turns out Mcnuffles has a 7.5" finger span. I think I saw that their house brand may be available with a small keyboard. If those are also going to be available in Australia, it might be an even better option. But again, no conclusions without data wink

I'm going to stop for the night. Apologies if I came across as brand bashing. I help pharma companies gather data for a living, and in my line of work, respecting the available data, even it's bad or weak, is a life or death issue. You guys who are saying ignore the data are right, it's just 15K of Mcnuffles money we're risking, not his life. I'll try to tone it down.
Todd
Toddler,

I'm not referring to you or people in this thread about bashing, since they are real owners. I am simply stating that one can decide not to post a positive review - after seeing certain trends for a number of years (here and also elsewhere on the Web).

Well, I'm now bowing out of this topic in respect to the OP, and I sincerely hope he will gather more useful information for his future piano purchase.
Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by iLaw
Has Norbert been banned? How has he not weighed in on this conversation by now?

Larry.

No, Norbert has not been banned, to my knowledge. And, I agree, he used to be a dealer for Broadmann, didn't he?

One thing about Norbert, he is a strong promoter and defender of the brands he sells. Shouldn't all dealers be? smile

Norbert is probably out somewhere performing and promoting his new blues CD. smile

Rick
Posted By: Mcnuffles Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/20/16 09:45 PM
Hi everyone, thanks for all your input. I didn't realise that this was going to result in such a lively debate. II have big hands (for a woman) but small wrists. I am still weighing up my options. The Brodmann that I am interested in will be in at the end of the month. So I guess I'll bide my time and keep my options open.

Having said that, I've played on so many pianos and had reactions from them. It's just been really hard, as I just don't want to buy another piano that I can't play!

I am so thinking, that since I have a light touch I may not have a problem at all with anything wearing out as I won't be bashing the living day lights out it.
Originally Posted by Mcnuffles
I am so thinking, that since I have a light touch I may not have a problem at all with anything wearing out as I won't be bashing the living day lights out it.

That's a good point. Keep up posted about your final decision and enjoy the buying/testing process !
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 02:25 PM
Hi Mcnuffles,

That seems very logical. Maybe a tech can weigh in on whether more forceful playing is the likely culprit on causing those other actions to fail so quickly, as opposed to simply the number of repetitions or less stable materials.

Right now, I'm actually more interested in your hand size than the Brodmann's durability. When you say you have large hands for a woman, what does that mean. My unstrained pinky to thumb stretch is 9 1/4", or a touch over 23cm. That's probably average for a grown man under 6' tall, so if we believe Steinbuhler's research, I'm at the overlap point for a normal keyboard and a 15/16ths sized keyboard. My daughter's hand span is 7 1/2" so she's perfect for a 7/8" size keyboard, and borderline on a 15/16th. If she continues to play as much as she does now, someday we may get her a 7/8 or 15/16th size action to decrease her risk of repetitive motion injury and tendinosis. You already have tendinosis, so can I ask what your comfortable pinky to thumb reach is?

Todd
Posted By: Tuneless Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 03:59 PM
Toddler, are you a toddler? I'm a woman and my strained spread thumb tip to pinky tip is over 11 inches. If I make a very concerted effort to be very relax in my hand it is still 10.5 inches. Note I am not the person you asked this question of.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 04:37 PM
Wow, that's impressive. Like WNBA pros impressive.
You should be able to play a comfortable 12th, and stretch to a 13th since an octave is only 6 1/2 inches. I think daughter can only comfortably reach one key past an octave on the white keys with a 7 1/2" finger span.

edit: I re-checked. Flat on the table, so no arch and totally useless measure, I can still only stretch to 9 3/4". 11" is nice. How tall are you?
Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 04:59 PM
This thread has indeed taken some strange twists and turns. How did we get to hand/finger size and thumb-to-pinky (little finger?) spread? I've never measured my hand/finger stretch/spread; as long I can hit the double octaves and make a full chord from octave to octave, I'm happy. Being able to stretch beyond that with one hand doesn't interest me. Should it?

I don't think any of this has much to do with the durability/longevity of the Brodmann piano brand, except that maybe big hands wear out a Brodmann faster than small hands. What if a small handed person is a pounder? smile

No offence to anyone who has participated in this thread; I'm just saying it has taken some strange twists and turns.

My personal opinion? Based on Joe's comments alone, who is one of the few participants who actually owned a Brodmann, that'd be enough for me to keep looking.

Rick

In my experience, hand size does not always serve as a significant impediment to playing virtuoso works. There are many concert pianists who have quite small hands. Such as Alicia DeLarocha and others. They compensate by rolling the hand and breaking large intervals and re-voicing parts.

In fact, having a very large hand can present problems in being able to leap from one hand position to the other because of the higher mass of the larger hand/arm and this can cause muscle tension.

If a pianist is having tendinitis problems one of the things to investigate, (there can be many contributing factors) is the inertia of the piano action.

Many newer and rebuilt pianos have more massive hammers than performing pianos from the late 19th and early 20th century. The hammer mass is the main determinant of the inertia of an action. If the hammer mass is high, the piano is almost impossible to play fast and with any dynamic nuance at a rapid tempo.

While I am sure some pianists find the smaller octave reach of 15/16th's and 7/8th's keyboards more comfortable, the shrinking of the head-scale done to achieve this can present serious mechanical difficulties in wear rates and repetition feel to most modern pianos.

The scale spacing at the strike point being so wide in most modern pianos that the sideways offsets in the key set created by reduced keyboard compass span is the mechanical challenge to fitting a reduced key-width key-set. The result is rapidly wearing key bushings and inertia added via the denser, stronger wood used to mitigate the weakness to the key-stick the higher sideways splay creates.

To really make the 7/8th's key sets work, one should start with a piano that was made with a narrow scale stick, (a scale stick is piece of wood that has the hammer spacing at strike point, string lengths, striking proportions, string fan angle and wound string that was traditionally used to design a piano. Drafted blue prints were not used in the 19th century for piano design). Some of the small Chickering grands from the early 20th century are the most likely choices.

Almost all of the Asian and German grands use wider scale sticks than small Chickering, (large Chickerings had wide scale sticks), Baldwin, and Steinway. Thus they are quite poor choices for reduced key-width key-sets.

So my intent here is to suggest that if a pianist has trouble feeling comfortable on most modern pianos, try to find a piano to experience that a technician has set-up who is well versed in tone-regulating actions by reducing inertia. It is cheaper to tone-regulate an existing action than it is to investing in fitting a reduced compass key-set.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 07:39 PM
Hi Rick,
Because of the below quoted text, and while I don't doubt that there are many factors that contribute to tendonosis, McNuffles specifically commented that her Rachmaninoff days were past. Took that as a reference to stretch exacerbating her condition, so I asked about span. My daughter's hands are closer to Alicia de Larrocha's, while Cynthia can likely palm a basketball. I'm in between.
Todd


Originally Posted by Mcnuffles
Hi everyone thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them. The Brodmann that I am looking at is the PE 187. It's new and it's selling in Australia for about 19,000 AUD. I am doing a performing dip and I teach a few students a week too. The reason why I keep coming back to the Brodmann pianos is the action. I have chronic tendinosis. I have played so so many pianos the past 3 weeks.
When I play a piano that I have found an action I like (they are always now second hand pianos where is action is relaxed a bit) I have had major flare ups afterwards. I had played the Brodmann pianos initially and went back again yesterday played for a hour an no flare up. The action really suits me.
It's actually a beautiful looking piano, but I am not buying a piece of furniture. With my hand (well arm) problems by Rach playing days are over. Technical work I find difficult (the most technically demanding work I am doing is the Bach e minor Toccata, the final fugue is killing me!).
This is my one chance in a lifetime buy to a good piano. If I buy the Brodmann my resale options are going to be limited. I can't afford to stuff it up from so many angles.
Thanks everyone
I guess, if the piano dealer in Melbourne is reading this he will be having a chuckle smile
Posted By: Rickster Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by toddler2
Hi Rick,
Because of the below quoted text, and while I don't doubt that there are many factors that contribute to tendonosis, McNuffles specifically commented that her Rachmaninoff days were past. Took that as a reference to stretch exacerbating her condition, so I asked about span. My daughter's hands are closer to Alicia de Larrocha's, while Cynthia can likely palm a basketball. I'm in between.
Todd

Thanks for the explanation, Todd, though it really wasn't necessary. I do appreciate the courtesy, however. smile

Lots of threads on PW take strange twists and turns. Nothing unusual about that.

Not sure this is relevant, but there is a used piano dealer in the Atlanta area who has been trying to sell, what he calls a new/older Brodmann baby grand for years; I've noticed his ad, in different forms and slightly different prices on occasion for at least the last 5 or 6 years. New/Old Brodmann

Kind of makes you wonder why he hasn't sold it yet.

Rick

P.S. this is the same used piano dealer that I mentioned earlier who always uses a different brand-name for the bench. A Steinway bench comes with the Broadmann piano; surely a fabulous combination! smile
Posted By: dogperson Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/21/16 08:16 PM
There are always references to alicia de Larocca's 'small' hand size, but what I find actually substantiated is that she could reach a 10th ... not exactly a small reach

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/26/arts/music/26larrocha.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_de_Larrocha

Long fifth finger, and a wide stretch between thumb and index fingers
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/sep/26/alicia-de-larrocha-obituary
Posted By: sophial Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/22/16 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by dogperson
There are always references to alicia de Larocca's 'small' hand size, but what I find actually substantiated is that she could reach a 10th ... not exactly a small reach

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/26/arts/music/26larrocha.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_de_Larrocha

Long fifth finger, and a wide stretch between thumb and index fingers
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/sep/26/alicia-de-larrocha-obituary

Yes, people often assume that because she was so small in stature that her hands were tiny.
Well I tuned for her a couple of times and watched her play. From what I saw she could barely reach an octave.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/22/16 02:34 AM
I read that, and I saw that she complained when she was older that she was shrinking and could only play a ninth, but I'm not sure I believe her span was that long. Watch some videos.

It's obviously hard to tell, and she may have played a tenth, but she was just so amazing it looked to me like when she needed more than an octave she just creatively used two hands or was so fast and skillful rolling the notes that it didn't matter if she didn't actually have the reach. Incredible to watch and hear. Either way, I'll be careful not to use her as an example of a great pianist with small hands anymore.
She did roll intervals wider than an octave but was so incredibly fast, precise and dynamically controlled that if you weren't watching her close at hand, it sounds like they were played at once.
Posted By: Tuneless Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/22/16 04:49 AM
OK, I am incorrect with hand width. I don't know what this scale is for, but I am doubting it is in inches. So, my hand reaches across a standard piece of paper, so is about 8 & 1/2 inches.
Posted By: ando Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/22/16 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by Tuneless
OK, I am incorrect with hand width. I don't know what this scale is for, but I am doubting it is in inches. So, my hand reaches across a standard piece of paper, so is about 8 & 1/2 inches.


That makes a lot more sense! I was going to suggest you contact the Guinness book of world records! wink
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/22/16 01:52 PM
And there you had me feeling "toddler" size for a little bit, Cynthia ;-). I actually chose toddler for my screen name because my real name is Todd, and my kids were 2 & 4 when I joined. My reason for joining was that I needed a piano for them to learn on and I had a lot of questions.
Posted By: cphollis Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/23/16 03:38 AM
One data point amongst many.

I bought a near-new PE187 two years ago. It played well in the showroom, and sounded adequate for the money, so I pulled the trigger. Certainly a great value for a decent-sized grand.

I got it home, and never got it sounding quite "right". I fiddled with acoustic treatments, had a tech come and look at it. He gave me the truth: he said it sounded as good as it was ever going to sound. Oh well.

BTW, my comparison instruments were (a) a 30-year-old grey market Yamaha 6' grand that I loved, and (b) a Yamaha AvantGrand. Both played well, and sounded pristine. My PE187 cost more than either, and delivered less enjoyment.

Like the action, liked the look of it -- but the acoustics never sat right with me once it was in my living room. The more I played it, the more it bothered me. That ain't what grand pianos are all about.

So I sold it at a small loss, and went on to something else.

Can't comment on durability, etc. The wear and tear on your ears probably matters more. It did to me.

No attempt to be authoritative here, just sharing my personal experiences.
Posted By: Toddler2 Re: Brodmann piano owners weigh in please! - 02/23/16 03:23 PM
Hi cphollis,
Tone changes due to the room in the owner's home being different than the showroom, isn't something we can blame on the piano, but it's nice that you only took a small loss on it! I am curious as to what you "went on to".
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