Hi all,

So I have noticed that my piano is loud. A 7 footer in a private home...loud? Say it isn't so! In any case my piano lives in a weird space and this is pretty much the only spot it can go. I am reading that sound pressure levels in excess of 85dBA can cause hearing damage and after I noticed that my ears were kind of being overwhelmed, I invested in a sound meter to test the noise from the piano. During a particularly aggressive bit of playing (slamming out some chords from the Rach 2, for example) it can reach peak at almost 100 dBA! I am relatively young and want to preserve my hearing. I made a short video below in hopes you all might be able to help me make sense of my space and see what I can do to help cut some of the volume/pressure. Thanks so much again! (Also, sorry for the rambling on the video).



I also found this thread, which seemed to have a lot of mixed

I watched your video and forgive me if some of my suggestions and observations are obvious.

First off, acoustic pianos are almost always louder in a house then people expect, regardless of size. Upright, grand, whatever. A well designed, well regulated, well voiced 7' grand should just sound better than smaller instruments or uprights at the same volume, and be easier to control at softer volumes.

Secondly, the better regulated the piano is, the more easily controlled at soft volumes. There are also ways to regulate the piano to cut a bit of power. I suspect you have a good tech, so discuss these options with him.

The piano can be voiced to be softer. If voiced beautifully, rather than killed, it is worthwhile. You might not love it at first, but you will probably get used to it. It is worth exploring. If you don't like it, and it was voiced softly correctly, it will come back up naturally, or the tech can voice it up. Voicing is an art. Again, I hope you have a trusted tech for these suggestions.

The string cover does cut the DBs a bit and in the important high partial range. I'd give that another try.

Put the lid at half stick if you don't want it all the way down. This again will cut the high partials a bit and improve the bass ( a surprise to most ).

Put a piece of foam behind the music desk. Cut it to fit the back of the music desk in both size and thickness.

There are sound deadening caster cups you can buy. Or just put sound deadening rubber under the casters.

Double up the rugs under the piano.

You can buy or fit foam rubber baffles under the piano in between the back beams.

Keep deadening the room with absorbing materials.

I am guessing you thought of most or all of this. Hope it was a help. Good luck.

Very interesting post! I have measured our 5'8" C2X in its room which measures 12x15. If I really try I can get a 95db reading.

However, you need to understand that it's not just how loud your piano is above 85db, but how much time does it spend above that level over a continuous time frame, say 2-4 minutes while playing a piece.

Now there is a sound level range that if above it, even a fraction of a second of exposure can begin to cause permanent damage. That range starts around 105db, but this is not an exact number for everyone.

If after playing something loud on your piano, try to get the room as quiet as possible, and see if you can detect even a small amount of ringing in your ear. If you do, it is trying to tell you something.

And by the way, I'm no expert at this, but being almost 60 and with my hearing VERY important to my quality of life, I've tried to be careful over time. For example, I wear earplugs while mowing my lawn, or even when attending a live music concert.

I'd be curious as to what folks think about this subject.

Things I note:

You spend 5 minutes talking, and you barely play the piano! How are we supposed to advise you when we are missing that demonstration? What little there was did not sound too good.

You do not want to move the microphones. I move microphones for concerts all the time, and just move them back when I am finished. Usually I just rotate them, so they will go right back.

You worry about fidelity? There is nothing more true to the sound of a piano than the sound of a piano!

My advice is the same as always: Keep your piano tuned, regulated and voiced, and if it is too loud, play it softer. That should not be difficult on a 7 foot piano.

If you don't want to play as BDB recommends, why not try some musicians earplugs as Brian suggests? Standard ones cost next to nothing and you could graduate to custom made if you take to them.

Just got some yesterday, as a matter of fact. They make one octave sound better and another sound worse! I am certainly going to give them a shot and see if I can get used to them.

BDB, I don't see how playing is going to help anything in this case. I'm not using the nicest camera and the point of the video was to give a visual for my space and arrangement, not put on a recital. The camera is mounted on my head, so that's hard enough as it is and the audio quality isn't the best.

My tech is scheduled to come out two weeks from tomorrow, which is fine since I'm going out of town this week.

That is another thing I wanted to bring up, is how notes that are slightly out of tune can affect the perception of harshness or loudness.

My main concern isn't so much the aesthetics of the sound. I do like how the piano SOUNDS, I just don't want to actually damage my hearing, is the thing.

All the suggestions given so far are fantastic, by the way, and I really do appreciate it.

The sloped ceiling is a serious problem child. Add to that the fact that the source of the sound is significant, and you have defined yourself into a challenging situation. The large the amplitude produced by large instruments is...well...large. In a confined space, with a sloped ceiling you will be swimming upstream all the way.

Really...these are not parlor instruments. Finding a solution which can overcome the sheer power produced by this machine, in a space that challenged, will require an acoustic engineer and money. By the way, techs who tune these regularly in confined spaces often protect their ears. Its a drag for a musician to wear protection like that, but in the face of that power, power wins.

One simple solution is not to play Rachmoninoff...its bad for the environment anyway, and should have been banned by the EPA years ago. How about a little Satie.

15 seconds of playing would give a lot of information, even with a so-so recording.

Is a little Scriabin okay to offset my Rachmaninoff footprint? Really, I am not slamming full force at all times and I'm hardly talented enough to play something like one of those piano concertos for serious.

One thing I considered was rigging up cables that stretch over the piano and mounting foam panels on them to create an acoustic cloud. Would that be a possibility?

I can throw together another video. But would this be more helpful after my tech is done in a couple weeks, or no?

If we can hear it before the tech comes, we can make suggestions of what might be done.

What's the DB reading for that violin hanging on the wall when played under the ear?

I play viola, a little bit, and have done the musician's ear plug routine (the one's with little holes in them that filter high frequencies and loudness without muffling the sound). They do work, but I always feel like I'm impacting ear wax (from lots of sinus problems).

If your piano is very new, the tuning of the top may be screaming until the strings stretch out and stabilize with repeated tunings.

Is it at all possible to rearrange the room?

As requested. Go easy on me, I'm self-taught and don't read music.

WhoD,

I don't play the violin, but I can possibly take a measurement. The instruments are there for other musicians who come to visit. The piano is relatively new. It's a late 2012/early 2013 and I am the first non-dealer owner. I have had it for about 9-10 months and had it extensively voiced and regulated when I first took delivery, and have had it tuned on average every 2.5 months since. Perhaps I need some touch-up voicing?

Another thing to note, even though it doesn't peak the sound meter, the octave between D6 and D7 just wrecks my ears, though I am well aware some of those notes are going a bit out of tune.

Thanks again, everyone!

I think it will be better when it is tuned. There may be a little voicing that you could have done, but it is not bad. Just keep on the maintenance, play at reasonable levels, and it should not affect your hearing as much as other things in your life do.

Thanks BDB. I will try and report back once he's done. I have an update, relating to what WD just suggested earlier. Since the music desk folds flat, I decided to place the 2ft foam slab right on top of it. Lo and behold, many of the harsher, ear-rattling elements were greatly diminished! I could finally sing a rock ballad I've been working on without my eardrum crackling, and I could literally see the foam shuddering from the energy it was absorbing. So yes, I think the culprit is the vaulted ceiling. I'm discussing with my friend the possibility of installing an acoustic cloud above the piano.

You can't treat a room to make the piano softer. The piano makes the noise it makes no matter what you do to the walls. The 100 db has to travel past you to get to the wall so you've had the exposure before the sound can even get to the wall to be absorbed. A room is passive it can't amplify sound. Conversely it can't make it softer either it can only change your perception of sound that already hit a wall and bounced. Let's take a pistol. Muzzle velocity is 700 or so fps. Does it matter what's behind you if you're in front of it? Well, you're always 3 feet away from your piano when playing it. If your piano is 100 db at 3 feet, it's 100 db at 3 feet no matter what's on the wall behind you.

If you want to limit your exposure, your best bet is ear plugs. The custom ear molds are supposed to be the most natural sounding because of bone conduction and how well they seal. You can choose, and change at will between 9, 15 and 25 db. A cellist I know in the L.A. Phil uses a 25 db in the ear that faces the brass and a 9 db on the audience side. For pop dates he wears 15's in both ears.

Save buying more acoustic panels for when you want to change how the piano sounds on recordings.

Kurt

Have you tried half stick? How does it compare to the foam?

I tried both with my new piano from last year when I was also overwhelmed with upper partials. I ultimately decided on the half stick approach and have been pretty satisfied.

Bear in mind that the music desk may be vibrating from pedalling, thus the quivering foam.

I've seen concert pianists with Bs and Ds at home close the lid completely and put the music desk atop the flap draped with a cloth runner. I really hate to see them do this, however. And I know that you do not want to inconvenience your mic setup.

You've got a beast, with the top voiced to cope with the growling bass!

Whilst moving my uprights around, I tried playing one with it positioned as yours is - pointing into the corner of a room. I realise uprights project differently but I was surprised how much the walls behind the piano seemed to focus the sound back to the player.
Maybe you're sitting in some kind of sonic death ray focal point? Or is it that loud anywhere in the room?

Kurt,

It's true the sound has to go somewhere, but in this case it is getting absorbed by things in the room. The 100dB may be shouting straight up at the prism-like ceiling and reflecting back to me. Using the foam, the foam absorbs that energy as heat. Otherwise, why would anyone treat a room in the first place? If it seems clearer and not as loud when the piano is blocked overhead and the foam is floating directly above the dampers, wouldn't that indicate some important info?

Ben,

I have tried half-stick, to no avail. Everything that really hurts is in the higher registers. I have little complaint about the bass end so far. A few notes are creeping out of tune, tho.


BenNZ,

I had thought about that and I still feel I may be sitting in a death zone, but not from the horizontal so much as the vertical.





Hence why I named the piano Toothless!

I've got the same size piano approx. I rarely open the lid when playing.

It could be worth checking where the sound is being emitted. With the piano completely closed (incl music desk), I'd suspect that most sound would be emitted by the soundboard downwards. It would be interesting to take measurements with it closed - and place the sound meter below the piano, in front and above near the pianist's ears.

I notice that most of your floors are bare timber - I would suspect that carpeting would absorb a lot of sound.

The piano sounds good but it sounds like it has been voiced for a larger space. It has a lot of projection in it.

I would take Keith's suggestion of having a deep toning done. My piano was voiced to an incredibly mellow tone that almost lost the clarity between the notes - verging on muffled I mean. Now, while some may say 'oh but that's killing the sound and we need to have a clear singing tone' - well, all that it took was a little patience on my part, playing it every day (which I do anyway) and let it brighten up naturally. Now it's very clear and sings incredibly. When I play pianissimo, because the hammer is voiced so well, it will give this beautiful sound that is so suited to Debussy, a very mysterious tone. I can manipulate the una corda pedal and have different levels of una corda according to how far I push it down, so if I want, I can go back to that muffled almost muted veiled sound, or use it a bit less to have a more traditional una corda tone.

The really wonderful thing about this style of voicing is the layers of sound that can be achieved - I can have one full bodied singing line and underneath it have this almost foggy accompaniment if I so wish, which I haven't been able to replicate on any piano that hasn't been voiced in this manner.

Finally, when I need to use a full throttled fortissimo, I can make the walls shake. For whatever reason, this style of voicing gives this orchestral quality to the fortissimo, it's like a thunderstorm rather than an air-horn.

From the piano being newly rebuilt to where it is now, took about 8 months of me playing, and it's still changing, but it has started to settle beautifully. As long as I keep an ear out for the strident notes it doesn't get too bright, and I don't have to worry too much about it becoming a battle between the technician and the piano for beautiful sound.

My previous piano on the other hand, sounded right when it was fresh out of the box, ready to go if you like, but after six months it was a constant struggle to bring the sound back because it started to become unbearably loud, and ended up sounding like an angry rash - if you get the simile - I mean rather unpleasant and totally unrefined even with my technician working to tone the hammers. They were simply too hard from the start. Had I known what I know now I would have had it deep toned, but I didn't know that then!

Markarian, acoustic treatment is usually done to avoid excessive echo and standing waves FROM A POINT OF LISTENING. How much is this, that's upon circumstances, though there are some typical measures taken as a reference which are easily avaliable via google.

As others said before, room treatment won't make your grand quieter. It would make your room more pleasant for the audience, or it could give you a better control over your recordings. That's all. From the player's perspective, and related to sound levels, it does next to nothing, I'm afraid. It could improve how you perceive the sound after it bounces back to you. This means that being 'into' the same Db levels you'd feel more comfortable...which could be even worse.

So you'll need to voice the grand way down if you want to play it full opened, or use earplugs, or put foam UNDER de board, in between ribbons.
Being at home, a grand can't be trated as if you were at a hall.

Markarian,

Sound is not a thing. It's waves of pressure moving through air. If the piano makes 100 db at 3 feet,* the piano makes 100 db no matter where it is, inside, outside, the wall lined with the fleece of virgin Himalayan lambs, the piano makes 100 db. The sound that goes up into your vaulted ceiling has already hit your ears for good or bad.

And that brings us to an age old issue here and one that has become my sisyphus' stone. My piano hurts my ears is not the same as my piano is too loud. Now that you bring up vaulted ceilings, you're into absolutely classic territory of flutter echos and destructive interference. Those are indeed acoustics issues and need acoustics solutions.

Here's the important take away or the TL:DR as the kids say, If the problem is the vaulted ceiling, and you were playing a digital and turned down the volume, the room would do the exact same thing to the sound; it would just be quieter. Maybe it would bug you less, who knows? Fixing the the destructive interference problem will make it less fatiguing to play the (acoustic) piano in the room but you will still be sitting 3 feet away from a beast of a piano that makes 100 db peaks.

* distance matters because of the inverse square law. Sound loses half it's power (6db spl) with each doubling of distance. The piano makes 94 db at 6 feet and 88 across the room at 12 feet.

Whatever you figure out with it, good luck.

Kurt

Simply play with the lid DOWN. The overall volume will be reduced significantly, and your ears will probably be fine. As the owner of a M&H BB I know whereof I speak.

This. unfortunately the sound changes, but for practice is usually good enough, sure better than blowing your eardrums off.

This is a lot to take in. As I have mentioned before, playing with the lid down eliminated some, but not all of the harshness that I was hearing.

Can someone explain what a deep toning is? I'm a bit confused as to the specifics. I've been reluctant to have the piano heavily voiced down because I am worried it will lose its character, but between that and hurting my ears, the choice is a no-brainer. I also kind of feel like my tech would have indicated this level of voicing was significantly unsuitable for my space. BDB seems optimistic, at least.

When dynamic range is brought up I'm reminded I should mention some of this may be my technique. The B is my first ever piano that isn't a digital. I have also never really had any piano lessons. I have read that people who have only played on digitals tend to play harder/louder. I feel I've learned a tremendous amount of control since getting the grand, but I know I still have a long way to go. I wonder how much of this is actually poor technique too.

Kurt, when Lang Lang sits down at a D to bang out Liszt at a concert hall, is the instrument not hurting his ears too? I know that there's nothing on the walls that will make the piano quieter per se, but if there are more things to absorb those waves or they can travel farther away, then wouldn't that reduce the amount of sound energy reaching one's ears? I'm sorry that I'm confused.

I could simply be in denial about A) Choosing the wrong home, since the piano was the primary factor when I was house shopping B) Needing to put a muzzle on the dragon and play with the lid closed, which isn't as fun and C) That expecting a concert tone from an instrument inside one's home is a really dumb idea

Does this piano have a heavy action, which tends to make one overplay?
I do not get the impression from your second vid that this is an excessively heavy action, however.

In music schools, the lids on the 7 footers in teaching studios are always down, but that is to make students play with their "flame thrower" technique (to project in big halls). Or so it seems. 😜

Unfortunatley your initial video doesn't show up on my computer screen (don't know why) - so I can't comment on the actual sound of your piano. BUT - is it the VOLUME that you are concerned about or the HARSHNESS of tone?

The action is a pretty comfortable medium, I'd say. It's not heavy to where I feel I have to bang on it, but it's not exactly Horowitz' piano either.

My tech had explained early on that some of the PERCEIVED loudness has a lot to do with tuning and disagreeing waves when the unisons aren't just right. I have noticed the instrument always seems "tamer" when he leaves the house.

I really would love to keep the lid at full stick. I love the fullness and connectedness I feel with my music when the lid is open. To use a slightly more lurid metaphor, closing the lid or wearing earplugs while playing is like having to always wear protection when you're with your significant other.

To be clear, I am not a concert pianist, or even a performer. But I don't want my piano to be too "mellow" and do want it to have some bite to the sound.

I am going to wait before my tech visit to do anything, obviously. I have spoken with a local acoustic consultancy firm and may have someone come out to give an opinion on the space, but from what I'm reading here it's really just a constellation of factors that may inevitably lead to some compromises down the road. Again the thrust of this thread was to ask about any potential risk of permanent hearing damage. The quality of the sound and tone is secondary to this, though hardly unimportant.

There are people who expose themselves to pianos in circumstances far more "risky" for hearing than your setup. Yet they still hear well into an old age. Here is the story of one of them.

I saw that! What a gal! To take lessons from someone who has taught for 80 years must be extraordinary.

If you think the piano is loud it is because it is loud. I have tinnitus since a month ago and it is mostly cumulative damage from AP piano playing and kids screaming around. As you said initially anything above 85dBs will damage your hearing. If you reach a point in which the damage is measurable with hearing tests or tinnitus will depend on many other factors and it is unpredictable today. Somebody mentioned before that if you hear ringing after playing or at night it is a signal that you are getting close to developing tinnitus. Another signal of damage is hypersensitivity to loud noises. There should be a piano designed with good tone and low volume (95dBs FFF). The closest today are the DPs which are soundwise deplorable.

Friends:
The following will be unpopular and provoke all kinds of disgusted replies. But . . . I repeat, as I've done so on several previous occasions, not a single professional pianist of my acquaintance keeps his/her piano open and most, as do I, keep them completely closed with the music rack resting on top of the forward portion of the closed lid. Now, just why this statement incites such hysteria is quite beyond my ability to analyze. Having one's piano open at full sail reminds me of the dilettante who practised, at home, in white tie and a tail coat.
Personally, my poor old ears would simply not be able to stand it.
My piano is opened when the tuner visits, and that's that.
Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

I'm hardly disgusted, but maybe a little disappointed. I think I had a different set of expectations, but again, I'm relatively new to the piano as an acoustic instrument. I always saw the lid closed as storage mode, or for people who use their piano for photos and potted plants

So this is definitely a learning process for me. Knowing that I'm not the only one who's had to face this possible dilemma is definitely helpful.

Fwiw Krik, I do have a very nice DP upstairs, but the B has spoiled me quite a bit.

Markarian:
You have a wonderful nature, quite free of ego and ridiculous posturing.
I sympathise with your reluctance to close your piano, as you are so completely, so utterly in love with the instrument, the way it sounds, the way it looks, everything about it.
Those of us for whom our pianos are work-horses, no matter how fine and no matter how much we are attached to them, our ears come first and last.
Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

Winged collars jab the neck while playing. Tis much better to play in a turned-down collar with a black bow tie, silk smoking jacket, and slippers with gold anchors embroidered on them . . . with good posture.

Thanks, Karl. I try to approach this, as with many things, with what my psychology professor called "Beginner's Mind."

My hearing is extremely sensitive, and I've always been very sensitive to loud noises. At 32, I can still hear the 17.4KHz "mosquito" tone. I take a few online hearing tests out of paranoia and always come up normal.

I tried playing with the lid closed, but a lot of the higher notes are still piercing and the tenor section sounds boomy and I can feel it in my chest, which is very uncomfortable. I did purchase Etymotic 12dB reducers, but I don't think they work very well and as I've mentioned before, now
the "problem" areas are in different octaves.

Perhaps I'm needlessly making myself crazy here, as many on this forum will point out I'm wont to do!

I noticed that you had windows on two walls in that room. Have you considered heavier drapes?

You might also consider tapestries for the other walls, although I can't be sure that they would soak up sound any better than your rock wool panels.

What does the soft pedal do?

WhoD, the UC definitely has an effect of creating a more subdued, less overwhelming sound. There's still a lot of power in the bass, but the reduced dynamic range makes playing everything I want rather awkward.

Alma, I have considered heavier drapes, perhaps placed behind the decorative ones, since I have an inner rod for the valences. Tapestries were always in the plan! I have several friends who are gifted artists and I was going to commission a couple of them to do some pieces for me, which I could then send out to be produced on a digital loom. This is something that I have regrettably put on the back burner , but now am obviously paying more attention to.

When I had my YAMAHA UX upright - had a nice, more mellow tone than typical YAMAHAs - I'd only occasionally open the lid when we had a crowd around for a sing-along etc. Uprights rarely have their lids open - other than Churches where they're too small for the space.

My Schimmel 6' grand was delivered, the delivery men opened the lid, polished off their fingerprints and left - and I played. Within 5 mins, I had the lid on short stick. Next day, I put it up, soon moved it down, and within the hour had it closed. Only opened for doing a few videos. Since the Grotrian arrived - after testing volume levels - it has only been opened when the technician has come.

I consider that, in a home environment, closed is my option - if I took it to a hall, it would be on short/full stick. Like driving my Ferrari (I wish!!! - it's a 1.6l Ford diesel - I spent my money on a piano instead) - I'd drive it gently, mostly, even though it could tackle Indianapolis Speedway.

Were you able to take sound measurements from below and compare them with measurements at your ear level?

I've already got tinnitus - it had been slowly increasing (piano?, pipe organ?, machinery?), but in 2006 (age 53) I got the flu, and had a severe case of vertigo for 3 weeks (probably inner ear related??) and afterwards, the tinnitus was much worse, and hasn't abated.

Consider whether or not you experience uncomfortable listening in any other setting, like movies, concerts, noisy restaurants, airplanes. You could see an audiologist to find out what's going on with your hearing.

Joe 80 made an excellent point which I would like to expand on a little.

If you are having your piano serviced by either a Steinway trained tech, or someone schooled in the needs of performance venue pianos, they will be approaching your the piano tonally with at least 2 aesthetic biases. These biases are not right or wrong, good or bad, but reflect the intended end use of these instruments...ie reflect the performance oriented nature of this instrument.

1- the tonal profile of performance pianos prioritize the experience of an audience physically removed from the instrument. In the land of un-avoidable piano compromises and trad-offs, performance instruments prioritize spatially removed ears over the ears sitting at the keyboard. The shrill forcefull attack you are experiencing, sitting at the keyboard, does not make it out to the audience. That shrill-ness is lost just a few feet from the piano.

Performing pianists learn to gauge how they are projecting in a hall using this sound pressure, that is, the attack sound pressure unto discomfort, at the keyboard, as a barometer. A certain level of discomfort, in a performance piano is part of the experience. Those with very sensitive hearing, like my own, and it sounds like yours, are not good candidates for physically enduring sounds of a large performance instrument, at the keyboard. Actually I should say, not good candidates for enduring the performance intended sound profile, but good canditdates for enjoying a kinder gentler private, home venue, tonal profile.

2- Brand trained techs, and techs in general, often being somewhat on the aspergers spectrum to start with, often think altering the sound aesthetic of so-and-so brand as an unthinkable insult to the instrument's god-given immutable nature. Words like "you can't do that to this piano" will flow. Thus, in true asperger-like behaviour, affording the piano more right to exist as intended, than the piano's human owner.

A fine highly skilled fine S&S trained tech will not allow either him/herself to consider altering the attack profile of this instrument, and will not be able to even present other tonal options for your condition.

My work approaches the piano from the pianists experience at the key board, as opposed to the needs of an audience. A compromise must be made...either prioritze the tone for the person at the keyboard, or prioritize the experience of the audience. A full 25% of my customers come to me, tears in eyes, asking why their tech refuses to listen to their complaints. One of the most poignant remarks came from a gentleman who, as he was handing my check, after I voiced it for his space and for his ears, gazed off into the distance, was silent for more than a few seconds, and then said "why wouldn't he (his tech) listen to me?"

Joe 80 spoke to this well. I would humbly suggest you go back and read his post, and allow it to penetrate past the brand association these instruments come with. Ask yourself whether the brand affiliation you purchased is more important than finding a tonal profile that will be sustainable and down right enjoyable..at the keyboard...with the lid open, for the rest of your life.

I tune with musician ear plugs, but I play my own piano, a piano, with a lovely home sized tonal palette, no plugs, lid up. Despite my hyper-sensitivity to sound, I revel in and am to a great degree healed by the sound of and the tuning of my instrument. Not only does it not hurt, but time and time again it calms and heals me. The tonal palette has been consciously created with my position at the keyboard being the location of the prioritized ears.

Its not rocket science, but the weight of brand specific expectations, and tech training, make it hard for most techs to suggest what should be really obvious in these situations.

Jim,

My tech was the first person recommended by Steinway in NYC. He does a lot of their warranty work and trained with Franz Mohr. To say he's passionate about the brand is a tremendous understatement. However, he is tremendously patient and accommodating. I feel confident enough that if I told him "I want you to voice this thing way down to fit this room" he would be happy to oblige. I'm afraid it may be I who am the culprit here because I basically told him "I love it!" when he had voiced it, because I did, indeed want that big, shouty New York bravado. I smirked to myself in smug satisfaction, like someone who caught a mythical beast in a cage too small for it.

He cautioned me voicing is an ongoing process, and that the instrument was very new and "showing its youth" in many ways. When I took delivery, it had the most unbelievable brassy attack that was shrill and penetrating. I didn't like it. He mellowed it down quite a bit, but I kept begging him "Don't neuter this piano, don't take away the power," because I had not spent any time with the instrument and I was worried I would not like what it sounded like. He greatly increased the dynamic range. I can play softly and it is quiet and sweet, or I can pound my eardrums into mush. But I think the curve may need to be adjusted.

Joe's post was deeply enlightening, as was yours. I have heard his recordings and they are divine. We talked at length via PM because we have the same mics.

I really appreciate the words of encouragement. I think your post has helped me to want to let go of my preconceptions of what my piano "should" sound like. I am definitely trying to make sure it sounds good for recording as well.

When our C2X arrived almost a year ago we had the lid fully open in the "classical" position.

However, after a week we noticed two things: Man this thing is loud and... our two cats were getting too curious about "what's inside".

So we closed the lid except for the front, which is a nice compromise. The tones still ring out, we can see some of the beautiful "innards", and our cats seem to not want to try to go in through the narrower opening.

For me the same, sensitive ears. I have the piano completely closed usually and a thick rug under the piano.

Yes it changes the sound but not much I can do about that. It sounds better than with emotec ear plugs

For the recording I open the lid completely and put in ear plugs...

There's always these in a pinch. I actually bought a pair and use on occasion. My hammers have become awfully hard and I can't afford to replace them yet.

Inexpensive, definitely not as good as musicians' earphones.

[img:left]http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/n-ou1is...h6av__85596.1404235860.1280.1280.jpg?c=2[/img]

You know what Jim mentioned about attack profiles got me thinking. I don't remember having any complaints about the pianos sound after it was voiced up until the last couple months. Maybe its just getting played in? When I took delivery it was brassy and loud and harsh, but my tech voiced it into a pleasant cocoon of moody dark chocolate with the OPTION to pound out a loud note if desired. So yeah, I'm really hoping its just a voicing issue primarily. We will see how it does after that and I may build an acoustic cloud or baffle (my friend came over ready to put some holes in the wall last night but I told him to wait )

Thanks Jim for the support on the post - there is something in every piano owner that wants our pianos to sound concert ready all the time, and it can't for practical reasons work like that.

Markarian, deep toning, the way my tech explained it to me, is when the whole hammer is needled deep inside the felt and the felt is really teased out all the way down the hammer. When the top of the felt (the striking part) gets played in, you get that clarity back, but because the rest of the felt, or at least more of the felt, is much softer than on a concert hall voicing, the sound is never violent.

My technician explained to me that rather than just wanting the hammer to hit the string and bounce back immediately, there is a certain point at which the hammer touches the string and almost bounces into it, and is cushioned because the felt has bounce in it. Of course it lasts a fraction of a fraction of a second so it doesn't stop the string sounding. I don't really understand *exactly* what he means, but perhaps Jim understands.

Surface toning is where the technician will needle out the felt on the top to take the edge off, and make the piano sound more mellow, but because the hammer is hard underneath, and combined with the hammer hitting the string repeatedly, it doesn't really last a long time.

The Steinways in the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland were deep toned at the start of every academic year, and they were voiced this way by Steinways in London. This method of voicing had three great benefits. Firstly it taught the students to project without forcing - so we understood how to play on beautifully prepared pianos (a challenge in itself if you don't know how). Secondly it meant the piano sounded better for longer - so it would never become violent although it was always full blooded and beautifully balanced and thirdly it prolonged the life of the piano, because the strings weren't constantly being hit with something like a rock, they didn't cut into the capo bar, the strings lasted a lot longer and most of the Steinways bought even as far back as 1975 were still being used in 2005 - of course having had a full service performed by Steinways once a year. The teaching pianos never needed restrung - only the concert grands and that's because they were being used in a concert hall by leading Steinway artists who would come up on a regular basis and give concerts and classes (like Pascal Roge, Dmitri Alexeyev, Charles Rosen) so the pianos needed to be the best.

The practice room Yamahas on the other hand were neglected when it came to maintenance - they were regulated and tuned but the voicing was rarely checked. They lasted on average 15 years before being sold on with half of their treble strings missing (shame, it's no fault of the piano, but the maintenance budget favoured the Steinway pianos of course).

Aren't the hammers in the Hamburg Steinways different from (i.e. hot pressed, harder) than those in NY (cold pressed, softer) and require different voicing techniques? Since the NY hammers are softer to start with, that kind of deep needle voicing might not be appropriate to use on a NY hammer. I'm not sure you can generalize between the two in terms of hammer voicing techniques.

This ^

I was going to mention this, but didn't have the specifics. I Googled "Deep Toning" and it seems to be a term exclusively used across the pond.

- we need input from another tech!

"Deep needling piano hammers" gives a good amount of results.
https://www.google.es/search?q=deep...;gws_rd=cr&ei=Gto4VZGKKeSt7gbW44CwCg

on renners

Only speaking for my own approach, I'm afraid my answer will be disappointing. I approach each instrument, without pre-concieved ideology.

I bring my whole arsenal of voicing tools, read the termination/impedance/regulation parameters/hammer weight/action ratio/room dynamics, and see what works...I will use different procedures in different parts of the register usually. But so far, I have treated no two pianos exactly the same, even within the same brand, same hammers. Even within the same brand/same model/same vintage, especially with S&S, strike weights will differ somewhat, action ratio will usually differ, and strike height often varies. This means hammer striking string will impact at different velocities. So I read the as-built conditions and fly by the seat of my pants, starting conservative and flex, using whatever works.

When working in the shop, light, cold pressed, very soft Bacon felt hammers, with somewhat broadened strike points, are my starting place. This setup starts out where Joe80's deep toning tries to get to. As Joe said, the tone is then gradually built into the hammers as they are played in. When the hammers are light, the voicing then is remarkably stable, as opposed to heavier denser, lacquered hammers, which often require more aggressive work, which then requires more maintenance.

(edit)

By the way, also echoing Joe80's comments, this approach, rather than sacrificing power, counter-intuitively, achieves carrying power from increased presence of the fundamental. This, without pain at the keyboard. I think its a phycho-acoustic thing to some degree, at least, in that the more prominent presence of the fundamental makes it easier for the brain to decode what note is being played. When there is an aggressive high partial attack, the attack contains no information regarding what the fundamental is going to be, so the brain is working overtime to decode and interpret what the ear is hearing. There is a brain heavy delay in decoding what note is being played. This decoding then becomes more complex when there are many notes being played in a thick texture. I think this delayed, highly processed brain activity is somewhat stressful in and of itself.

Mabraman, can you please remove that Renner-google link you posted? It's destroyed the page layout on this thread.

Sorry but I can't edit it anymore, I've reported it to mods.
It didn't look that bad when I posted it this morning, in my pc.

Sorry, again.