I'm looking to upgrade to a better piano - something around 7 feet long. I've pretty well dismissed Steinway and the German Bs due to their cost.
From what I have read, the M & H and Shigeru are fine pianos. Would anyone be able to tell me how these 2 pianos differ in terms of tone/timbre/color, projection, and feel?
I have played six or seven M&Hs and about the same number of Shigeru Kawais. They are both truly outstanding pianos and I can't help but think you would be thrilled with either one of them.
If you believe the marketing (and I do in this case), Kawai does a lot of hand-crafting on their Shigeru's in an effort to bring them up to concert-grade quality. I don't know the model number of the equivalent M&H but I suspect they also go to great lengths as well to ensure the highest quality in their 7' pianos.
My subjective views on tone and feel:
I think the Shigeru has a more cantabile (singing) tone and it excels in the higher registers. The M&H has a more "American" sound, with greater depth and complexity to the tone (similar to Steinways), particularly in the mid-range.
The Shigeru has a light and very responsive touch. The M&H, it seems to me, is a tad heavier. And the black keys on the M&H are square-ish. But the M&H's are also exceedingly pleasant to play.
Really, you can't go wrong with either brand. But you should definitely play both and compare them yourself. And take my comments with a grain of salt, because I'm a fairly new (3 years) piano player.
PS. Oh, welcome to PianoWorld!
You should do a SEARCH on Shigeru and on M&H and do some background reading about the pianos. They have been discussed a lot on this forum and you can glean a lot of information by reading.
I know shigeru kawai pianos very well. The concert grand is one of the finest available, definitely tier one material, although I prefer Steinway.
The smaller grands - up to the SK7 are all excellent but to me, for my money and taste, they don't match those from Steinway, Bluthner, Fazioli, Bechstein or Bosendorfer.
In the UK at least, they don't sell for anything close to the money that the other four makes I mentioned sell for, so you'd be getting an exceptional piano at a sensible price with shigeru.
Mason and Hamlin are a quality match for Steinway et al, and I have found that 95 percent of the time the top level of pianos gives me so much more in terms of colour and control but it is the thin end of the wedge - what kind of pianist you are will determine whether or not you'll need that extra that a tier one gives. Many players simply don't go there and that's fine.
The 5 percent of the time that top level pianos are matched by lower tier instruments? Well as it happens I have played on some pianos that should be fairly standard that have punched well above their weight. I've come across the odd Yamaha C3 that has been so beautiful you'd think it was a fully hand built artisan model, and two kawai 7'6 pianos that were as good as any Steinway - one was a 1970 model and the other was a new RX7 so magic things can happen! Yet most of the standard Yamaha or Kawai pianos I've played have merely been very good rather than earth moving.
Welcome to Piano World Mike52, If you are in the US, there is also the advantage, should you buy a new Shigeru Kawai piano, of having a Japanese Master Piano Artisan from Kawai come to your house to spend about a day tuning, regulating and voicing your new piano.
@Mike, you have dismissed the Steinway and German B's due to their cost, but were you actually interested in them because of their sound / touch? To name two German B's: Blüthner and Bechstein, they have a very different sound then a Steinway. Bösendorfer is Austrian but I suppose you can dismiss it as well based on it's pricetag.
So, how did you come to M&H and Shigeru Kawai? Don't get me wrong, those are very very good pianos, but what are you looking for?
In my humble opinion it would be better to find out what you like and then find something matching to your taste..
And, are you only looking for new instruments or is used also an option?
Furthermore, it's quite hard to judge a model, let alone a brand. Every single piano is different. This is for instance why Steinway lets you select a piano at their factory (if you want to).
That's a good point wimpiano makes. It's kind of what I was saying when I said every so often you find a Yamaha C3 which behaves as if it was competing in tier one.
If you're going to look at shigeru you might want to try Yamaha S series, and in that price range you also have sauter, schimmel, seiler, Haessler, w.Hoffman professional, Estonia, petrof, and used pianos from Bechstein, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, possibly Steinway, and of course you could get yourself a very fine rebuilt piano from a top maker that will possibly out perform any new piano on the market.
However, if you've been through all this and you're choosing between these two makes, I would say it's down to individual instruments - which of them speaks to you more?
If you still can't decide and you like them both equally, my gut says go for the Mason - it's a tier one for a start and on purely monetary terms it will hold its value better.
Seriously though you have to pick the instrument that you like the best. Both are good.
I came pretty close to buying a shigeru sk6 but I had a unique opportunity that I couldn't resist. Had that event not happened I would have the kawai and I'd be happy with it (but not as happy as I am with what I got haha!)
If you still can't decide and you like them both equally, my gut says go for the Mason - it's a tier one for a start and on purely monetary terms it will hold its value better.
Both Mason and Shigeru are tier two in the Fine rankings.
As Larry Fine has said repeatedly his tier "ratings/rankings" are not really either but more of a map based on the manufacturers own suggested pricing. Everyone here on PW has to stop using them as real rankings that you might find in a consumer testing magazine or based on opinions. Larry is doing that type of thing now in his staff picks.
As Larry Fine has said repeatedly his tier "ratings/rankings" are not really either but more of a map based on the manufacturers own suggested pricing. Everyone here on PW has to stop using them as real rankings that you might find in a consumer testing magazine or based on opinions. Larry is doing that type of thing now in his staff picks.
Agreed, there is too much emphasis placed on the rankings.
As Larry Fine has said repeatedly his tier "ratings/rankings" are not really either but more of a map based on the manufacturers own suggested pricing. Everyone here on PW has to stop using them as real rankings that you might find in a consumer testing magazine or based on opinions. Larry is doing that type of thing now in his staff picks.
But he also says that the pricing is "often associated with quality" although the association is "from perfectly consistent". I'm not sure if he means the buyer does the associating or he's talking about the inherent quality of the piano.
It's also interesting that the ratings of ten or fifteen years ago, when they were, as far as I know, closer to real ratings and Fine sometimes even attempted to rate the pianos in several categories, are extremely similar to the latest ratings, at least for the top two or three levels.
I currently own an RX3 with which I am quite happy. The touch is very even and responsive. In general, I like the tone, but to me it lacks that extra "éclat" that I was used to hearing on a good Steinway.
I like the colorful Steinway sound, as compared to the European. In terms of my price point, I think M & H or Shigeru may be the way to go.
I've read that M & H have an American sound (which I understand as the N.Y. Steinway sound). Can anyone confirm this?
I also read that M & H pianos can be overly aggressive in their sound. Is that true?
How would you characterize the Shigeru sound (American, European, Japanese à la Yamaha or in between)?
BTW, does one have to wait long to obtain a Shigeru, given that Kawai makes so few of them per year?
Someone mentioned that the Mason-Hamlin is a Tier 2 piano. If you check the ratings from Piano Buyer's Guide, so is NY Steinway. I think the Tier 1 pianos are just a few of the top European brands including the German Steinways, but it really seems to me to boil down to the individual pianos. I have tried some Tier 1 pianos that couldn't hold a candle to my Mason-Hamlin BB. The only Shigura I could ever try was not in tune (I just posted about this the other day) so I couldn't give an opinion. From what I have read here over the last few years, they both should be fine pianos. It just depends on what you prefer when you try them. Good luck!
Shigeru has a beautiful sound, very clear. It's more like a refined RX than it is a Steinway, however.
Any piano can be aggressive if voiced badly. There is a forum member who has just had a mason delivered to Brazil I think - perhaps you could ask for a recording to be posted.
Also don't rule out a used or rebuilt Steinway. If it's the American sound you want, you may also find a Baldwin - and in fact even a Boston performance edition can have (can have, not always has) something of that spirit about it.
Boston is made in the kawai factory but it's a different design, the grands I mean, and although it shares some kawai hardware it's quite a different sounding piano.
If you live in an area where there are top class rebuilders, I would go and play some of their pianos. I would buy a rebuilt from the rebuilder near my house over a new one anyway day - lower price and everything on his rebuilt pianos are fixed up to higher standards than a comparable new piano. Dedicating over 50 years to learning and perfecting one's trade can accomplish that. And he is not the only one. Just ask around.
I currently own an RX3 with which I am quite happy. The touch is very even and responsive. In general, I like the tone, but to me it lacks that extra "éclat" that I was used to hearing on a good Steinway.
I like the colorful Steinway sound, as compared to the European. In terms of my price point, I think M & H or Shigeru may be the way to go.
I've read that M & H have an American sound (which I understand as the N.Y. Steinway sound). Can anyone confirm this?
I also read that M & H pianos can be overly aggressive in their sound. Is that true?
How would you characterize the Shigeru sound (American, European, Japanese à la Yamaha or in between)?
BTW, does one have to wait long to obtain a Shigeru, given that Kawai makes so few of them per year?
I don't think either the Shigeru or the Mason sound like Steinway-- they are all quite different.
I quite agree with you when you say that the Shigeru doesn't sound like a Steinway. It has a very nice tone that is quite its own.
Where the Mason is concerned, it's a different matter. Since the pianos being made today with the name Mason and Hamlin on their fallboards sound nothing whatever like the vintage Boston or even the Rochester Masons, to attempt to describe them it might be necessary to say that they have some Steinway characteristics, at least in the brute force dept. I believe that the firm, esp. Bruce Clark, are very proud of their terrific volume, winner and still champion of the "my dad can beat-up your dad" competition.
Perhaps thugs passing the factory precincts are consulted for the final tonal regulation. Pianists, artistic or no, are NOT in the picture.
Here's a YouTube of a concert where they're playing the new Shigeru SK7L.
I've posted this video before and commented that I thought it sounded a bit digital, but a tech replied suggested it could have to do with the type of mic's they were using. Might also have to do with the new-age type music they're playing.
While the Ravenscroft looks a beautiful piano, it is very difficult to assess fairly a piano's sound on video films and hearing the sound through computer speakers.
I would say that the Shigeru Kawai piano has its distinctive sound which is a richer and more refined version of the K.Kawai grand piano sound. After all, I believe that there are similarities in size and scaling between the mass produced K.Kawai instruments and the more meticulously hand built Shigeru Kawai pianos. To my ear, the Kawai "signature" sound is apparent in both its standard and high echelon production, but it is surely significantly enhanced in the Shigeru Kawai models.
No, To my ear the Shigeru does not sound like the Ravenscroft. I agree with Robert in that Kawai has its own signature sound, which is different and distinctly Kawai.
I quite agree with you when you say that the Shigeru doesn't sound like a Steinway. It has a very nice tone that is quite its own.
Where the Mason is concerned, it's a different matter. Since the pianos being made today with the name Mason and Hamlin on their fallboards sound nothing whatever like the vintage Boston or even the Rochester Masons, to attempt to describe them it might be necessary to say that they have some Steinway characteristics, at least in the brute force dept. I believe that the firm, esp. Bruce Clark, are very proud of their terrific volume, winner and still champion of the "my dad can beat-up your dad" competition.
Perhaps thugs passing the factory precincts are consulted for the final tonal regulation. Pianists, artistic or no, are NOT in the picture.
Karl Watson, Staten Island, NY
To me the vintage Mason Hamlin grands had a unique, warm tone. Not a Steinway tone, but special in their own right. Hard to understand why the new Mason and Hamlin grands come with such hard hammers. The new AAs I played are loud pianos and not nearly as interesting or unique as they once were IMHO.
I recently played a friend's new Mason & Hamlin AA. I was quite pleased with it. I don't know if it had been in the store a while an had been voiced and regulated more than the average new M & H. But, it was not voiced simply to be loud.
Now whether this is "for granted" or not, it didn't sound like my vintage BB. My piano has a very warm, full sound. One of the nicest compliments I ever received on my piano was that it "wrapped its arms around you and pulled you in". Its dynamic range is huge. It is an incredibly responsive piano.
The Mason & Hamilin I played at the factory tour gave a mix of impressions. Surprisingly, the 9' CC was muted and sounded full of cotton or something. The smaller A and B were quite good for their respective size. Sadly, they did not have a BB on display. I got the feeling that for the money the smaller M & Hs were very good. I really wanted to play a BB to compare to my own.
I guess this is all to say, don't discount a vintage rebuilt piano. If you can find one that has been rebuilt with care, it could knock your socks off. And it will be less expensive than an equivalent new piano. I couldn't touch the price of a new BB. But I certainly have not regrets having bought my vintage Mason. Keep and open mind and play as many pianos as you can. Hopefully, the search will be rewarded at the end.
edited upon reflection and changed impressions of pianos at Mason & Hamlin factory tour.
I bought a new M&H BB because of the incredible richness of the tone throughout the compass. It blew me away in the showroom and loudness had nothing to do with it. It can play very, very loudly, but why would you want to? What it can do, in the hands of a pianist skilled in playing softly and expressively, is provide the full palette of colours demanded by the repertoire and the pianist, even in a small (my living room is 18'x18'x8') space. We have regular concerts in this space.
If you spend $40-80K on a piano, why not do what I did, and spend another $1k or so on a great technician, and have them regulate and voice it, and then spend a year learning how not to play it like the POS you (and I) were banging on before?
I bought a new M&H BB because of the incredible richness of the tone throughout the compass. It blew me away in the showroom and loudness had nothing to do with it. It can play very, very loudly, but why would you want to? What it can do, in the hands of a pianist skilled in playing softly and expressively, is provide the full palette of colours demanded by the repertoire and the pianist, even in a small (my living room is 18'x18'x8') space. We have regular concerts in this space.
To my ear, the vintage M&H has a basic tone color that is a darker, smoky golden color in comparison to the best Steinways, more like a spinto soprano than a mezzo. The best Steinways sound even darker comparatively, like steak and red wine. They have a wonderful, complex "bloom" after the hammer impact when the key is struck correctly, one I prefer.
The newer M&Hs generally have a lighter tone color than the vintage ones do. But they are very fine instruments and have a very beautiful and complex set of overtones in the decay like the best pianos.
Again, to my ear, the Kawais have a much lighter basic tone color than either of the others. Which I think is the fundamental difference between the instruments
However, I have to say that in this range there is no "better". These are all wonderful instruments, all worth the money, and it just depends entirely on which sound appeals most to you. That's why it's so important to play A LOT of these instruments before you buy. You'll need to educate your ear before 1- you can tell the difference consistently, and 2- you'll know what you like best.
Originally Posted by prout
..... and spend another $1k or on a great technician, and have them regulate and voice it, and then spend a year learning how not to pay it like the POS you (and I) were banging on before?
This is excellent advice, and points out the common problem of dealer/technical prep when buying a piano. And nowhere is this more obvious than in comparison with the Shigerus. These are among the most painstakingly prepared pianos on the market today, which is the real reason they sound so good in the dealer showroom. Most other pianos don't get that level or prep when they are set up in the store, and they suffer for it a lot.
For example, there is a dealer here across the bay from Seattle that spends a good deal of money on the prep. I've visited their store many times, and each time their head technician takes me around to show me what he thinks I'll like. And I have to say that every piano on that showroom floor sounds as good as it can possibly sound. The new M&Hs there, for example, were fabulous, amazing instruments that I thought would be a bargain at twice the price. As much as I love the sound of the vintage M&Hs, I would have been very happy with one of these new ones.
Now, down in Los Angeles are two dealers I've known for years. And they don't put in near the prep on new pianos on the floor. So their new M&Hs sound OK, but not NEARLY as good as the ones I played up in Bellevue near Seattle. And it all comes down to the amount of prep the dealer are willing to put into the new pianos.
It pays to shop around. And it really, really pays to know the best technicians, and to get them to work on your piano.
This is a most enlightening thread. Thanks to everyone for your input. I think I need a trip to Boston or N.Y. to do a lot of playing on these instruments.
If you spend $40-80K on a piano, why not do what I did, and spend another $1k or so on a great technician, and have them regulate and voice it, and then spend a year learning how not to play it like the POS you (and I) were banging on before?
At least in purchasing a new Shigeru Kawai piano, the great technician is gratis.
To the OP, curious as to why you chose a size first and are then trying to find the piano at that size that fits your budget. A better approach might be to set your budget and find the best piano (for you) that matches the budget regardless of size. I'd hate to think that you could be missing out on some wonderful pianos simply because you have predetermined that you are going to get a 7' (unless the volume of the room really dictates something that large). I've mentioned this before in previous postings, but when we were on our piano search one of the most magical pianos we came across was a restored Hamburg O. Not as much power as some of the 7'ers we were looking at (including the Shigeru and M&H) but tonally in a completely different ballpark.
Something to consider (and apologies if someone above already gave this reco).
If you spend $40-80K on a piano, why not do what I did, and spend another $1k or so on a great technician, and have them regulate and voice it, and then spend a year learning how not to play it like the POS you (and I) were banging on before?
At least in purchasing a new Shigeru Kawai piano, the great technician is gratis.
OP, so much of the impression one gets from playing a new hand built piano comes from the prep. Hand built pianos need really good preparation. In regards to M&H we recently received 3 new ones from the factory, a CC(9'4"), a BB(7') and an A(5'8"). Of the three the CC needed the most time and the A the least amount of time. David Andersen prepped all three and felt the A was one of the very best pianos of that size he had ever played. The CC was the big surprise because the person who said they played a muffled CC described how our CC sounded perfectly. David spent a day doing measurements and taking notes. Then came back and implemented his plan and the piano bloomed. It's absolutely amazing how good it sounds and the incredible sustain it has. Even knowing what an expert tech can do to get the most out of a piano, I was still impressed and in awe.
The Shigeru Kawai and Mason & Hamlin are 2 great but very different pianos with 2 very different philosophies of construction and sound. Mason & Hamlin has a hard rock maple very thick rim, Shigeru Kawai has a less thick rim made of mixed hard and soft rims that I don't believe Kawai discloses the material. The Mason & Hamlin has a wet sand cast plate versus a V pro plate for the Shigeru similar to what is in the Kawai GX series. Some techs will say the wet sand cast plate pianos have better sustain. Yamaha uses wet sand cast plates on their most expensive grands. I'm sure they have a reason for that. One philosophy is not right and one wrong, just a different approaches. Ultimately it's going to come down to what you like best in touch and tone.