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Sauter say of the Omega 220, "The lid props are made from solid maple for greater tonal brilliance."

Is this greater tonal brilliance fact or fiction? What wood do Steinway and others use for lid props? What effect could changing the prop have on the sound of a piano? ...
I think that's a clever way of saying the lid is NOT made of solid maple. Many people will read it as such though.
Originally Posted by ShannonG
I think that's a clever way of saying the lid is NOT made of solid maple. Many people will read it as such though.

That's an odd conclusion to draw! What other way can "the lid props are made of solid maple" be interpreted? I think it means they are made of solid maple - call me crazy! wink
I mean that many people will read it as the LIDS are made of maple. My guess is they are not.
Originally Posted by ShannonG
I mean that many people will read it as the LIDS are made of maple. My guess is they are not.


Anyone who knows what a lid prop is will read it correctly. Anyone who doesn't is probably not in the market for a 7-foot Sauter. wink
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by ShannonG
I mean that many people will read it as the LIDS are made of maple. My guess is they are not.


Anyone who knows what a lid prop is will read it correctly. Anyone who doesn't is probably not in the market for a 7-foot Sauter. wink


In point of fact, you misread my first response, reading 'lid prop' instead of 'lid'. It happens just that easily, and is classic marketing speak.

Edited for clarity.
I believe that a solid maple lid prop greatly aids in orchestral voicing. Is the "half-stick" also solid maple? If not, that can lead to band voicing.

wink
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I believe that a solid maple lid prop greatly aids in orchestral voicing. Is the "half-stick" also solid maple? If not, that can lead to band voicing.

wink


What would say, a pine or composite lid prop lend to? Busker voicing? One man band voicing?
Originally Posted by ShannonG
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by ShannonG
I mean that many people will read it as the LIDS are made of maple. My guess is they are not.


Anyone who knows what a lid prop is will read it correctly. Anyone who doesn't is probably not in the market for a 7-foot Sauter. wink


In point of fact, you misread my first response, reading 'lid prop' instead of 'lid'. It happens just that easily, and is classic marketing speak.

Edited for clarity.


I didn't misread it, I just think you are cooking up a conspiracy theory where there really isn't one. They refer specifically to the prop, yes, but they aren't obligated to mention all the parts on a piano that aren't made of maple just because they mention one that is.

Again, anybody who is in the market for an instrument like this is not expecting a lid made of maple. This is not marketing trickery. They are just pointing out a notable feature - in this case, a maple prop.
Ando, why would a maple prop stick be at all notable? It's a logical wood choice.
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Ando, why would a maple prop stick be at all notable? It's a logical wood choice.


Hi Marty, for whatever reason, they decided to mention it as being maple. I'm more just trying to say that I don't think Sauter were trying to trick anybody into thinking the whole lid was made of maple.
I'm still trying to fathom how a maple prop adds to the "tonal brilliance" of the piano over a stick made of, say, one of my old golf clubs (with Tru-Temper shafts for even greater tonal brilliance!).

Larry.
Tru-Temper lid props have proven to be excessively brilliant. There is a fine balance between brilliance and brightness which is affected by the pudding-like inharmonocity which is generated by ambient eggshell torsion vibrations.

It all leads back to how Bechsteins are voiced.

(Accept no substitutes.)
Steinway uses maple lid props. They do not have Mezzo ThermoNeal Stablization, though, so I would not trust them.
I have a variety of True Temper lid props in my garage, currently being repurposed as snow shovel handles. Perhaps with some juidicious use of binder twine the brightness could be mellowed.
The "tonal brilliance" caused by the solid maple lid prop is especially notable when the lid is not raised. smile
Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
The "tonal brilliance" caused by the solid maple lid prop is especially notable when the lid is not raised. smile


Bahaha. Post of the day!
Originally Posted by Withindale
Sauter say of the Omega 220, "The lid props are made from solid maple for greater tonal brilliance."

Is this greater tonal brilliance fact or fiction? What wood do Steinway and others use for lid props? What effect could changing the prop have on the sound of a piano? ...

Liquid maple (Grade A Light Amber) for a sweeter tone?
Originally Posted by Voltara

Liquid maple (Grade A Light Amber) for a sweeter tone?


Also delicious on pancakes. Musical genius must be nourished!
Can one tap one's Sauter in the spring?

(I would never have thought that Scott Joplin composed his Rags on a Sauter.)
It might be interesting to try a very thin hickory prop, turned from a blank that was split, not sawn. It's the only thing that might have enough twang to it to make a difference. Other than that, I can't see it making much difference whether it's maple or a hunk of old galvanized 3/4 NPT gas pipe.
I disagree. By extension of "Expressio unis est exclusio alterius" the statement that the prop is maple makes me assume that the rest of the piano is not.

Originally Posted by ShannonG
I think that's a clever way of saying the lid is NOT made of solid maple. Many people will read it as such though.
Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
I disagree. By extension of "Expressio unis est exclusio alterius" the statement that the prop is maple makes me assume that the rest of the piano is not.

Originally Posted by ShannonG
I think that's a clever way of saying the lid is NOT made of solid maple. Many people will read it as such though.


Then you and I are in agreement, as that was the point I was making. The lid prop may be maple, but the rest of the piano could be recycled hamster bedding for all we know.
Hamster bedding is usually shaved cedar. When compressed it makes a great substance for a piano lid.

(I need an aspirin.)
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Hamster bedding is usually shaved cedar. When compressed it makes a great substance for a piano lid.

(I need an aspirin.)


....but if it was recycled it would contain substances other than cedar, ifyaknowwhatI'msayin'.
Personally, I couldn't find a lid prop that was giving me enough tonal brilliance, so I had a local tech whittle me a prop from a genuine Steinway soundboard.
Personally, I'm waiting for the test results on the new carbon fiber composite props. I've heard that the materials and manufacturing techniques now allow far greater control of longitudinal resonant modalities and better inertial coupling with the flower vase.

That's what I've heard ...

Larry.
Originally Posted by ShannonG
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Hamster bedding is usually shaved cedar. When compressed it makes a great substance for a piano lid.

(I need an aspirin.)


....but if it was recycled it would contain substances other than cedar, ifyaknowwhatI'msayin'.

Well, of course it does. That is what makes pianos with this feature sme... er, sound so sweet....

ddf
Originally Posted by Del
Originally Posted by ShannonG
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Hamster bedding is usually shaved cedar. When compressed it makes a great substance for a piano lid.

(I need an aspirin.)


....but if it was recycled it would contain substances other than cedar, ifyaknowwhatI'msayin'.

Well, of course it does. That is what makes pianos with this feature sme... er, sound so sweet....

ddf


Or muddy
LOL. Norbert is a Sauter dealer. I can't wait to hear his spin on this thread. wink
Well, iLaw nailed it. Wood of any variety is just so old-school. Everyone on the cutting edge of piano technology knows that the very best lid prop material is Geo-Thermo-Stabilized vacuum-bagged carbon fiber.

ddf
I really think this is an inside joke at the Sauter company. Their products are too good to need fuzz like this.
Originally Posted by Del
Wood of any variety is just so old-school. Everyone on the cutting edge of piano technology knows that the very best lid prop material is Geo-Thermo-Stabilized vacuum-bagged carbon fiber.
ddf


Get with the times, man! Vacuum-bagging is cruel. Free range, cage-free carbon fiber is so much healthier for us and more humane.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Del
Wood of any variety is just so old-school. Everyone on the cutting edge of piano technology knows that the very best lid prop material is Geo-Thermo-Stabilized vacuum-bagged carbon fiber.
ddf


Get with the times, man! Vacuum-bagging is cruel. Free range, cage-free carbon fiber is so much healthier for us and more humane.

A few hundreds of thousands of years ago all fibers were free-range and cage free.

ddf
Originally Posted by Del
[...]A few hundreds of thousands of years ago all fibers were free-range and cage free.
ddf


My 2004 Estonia 190 is entirely (John) Cage free! smile
For that, you've earned slightly more than 4'30" of the silent treatment.
Originally Posted by wimpiano
I really think this is an inside joke at the Sauter company. Their products are too good to need fuzz like this.


You know, this makes a lot of sense to me.

.
.
.
.
It has been a long day, I guess.
I can just picture the brochure now... Carbon fiber for greater tonal regularity.
I'm going to think that we're all focusing too much on the "lid prop" as opposed to what the lid prop is for. Which from what I have read is to stop the muffling of the high-notes.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/pianorecording_0108.htm

A review of the Sauter website does describe many types of wood they use in their products. Quite a number of them, that I see.

My guess, we're looking at a poorly written draft that was copied over to their other products as well.

Their website:

" The lid props are made from solid maple for greater tonal brilliance."

I read this as:

"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."

I might be wrong, but I don't think this is them saying the maple increases the brilliance, but what the lid prop is used for.












Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
I'm going to think that we're all focusing too much on the "lid prop" as opposed to what the lid prop is for. Which from what I have read is to stop the muffling of the high-notes.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/pianorecording_0108.htm

A review of the Sauter website does describe many types of wood they use in their products. Quite a number of them, that I see.

My guess, we're looking at a poorly written draft that was copied over to their other products as well.

Their website:

" The lid props are made from solid maple for greater tonal brilliance."

I read this as:

"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."

I might be wrong, but I don't think this is them saying the maple increases the brilliance, but what the lid prop is used for.













Is the assumption therefore that lid props not made of maple are not able to lift the lid and thus are not able to create greater tonal brilliance?
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."


That's a fantastic observation, and it leads to questions about just how self-defeating that lid prop actually is in its function.

That wooden stick holding the lid open is actually blocking some of the sound as it exits the piano. Just think of the potential brilliance that is wasted!

Once Del has finished perfecting his ribless soundboard design, clearly the next step should be to investigate propless lids. The future of the piano may depend on it.
Not being able to lift the lid can be a problem, but I have an idea of brilliance. For those who are elderly or infirm, and need assistance to lift a lid, maybe Chippendale's could supply a choice of strapping lid props.

(Please refrain from any suggestions in reference to any kind of wood.)
Doesn't matter. The electromagnetic lid prop will obsolete 'em all. Invisible. Adjustable. Tone-friendly.
Originally Posted by bkw58
Doesn't matter. The electromagnetic lid prop will obsolete 'em all. Invisible. Adjustable. Tone-friendly.

And best of all, makes power outages fun again!
Originally Posted by Voltara
Originally Posted by bkw58
Doesn't matter. The electromagnetic lid prop will obsolete 'em all. Invisible. Adjustable. Tone-friendly.

And best of all, makes power outages fun again!


I just read your post. laugh (I'll race you to the patent office!)
Originally Posted by Voltara
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."


That's a fantastic observation, and it leads to questions about just how self-defeating that lid prop actually is in its function.

That wooden stick holding the lid open is actually blocking some of the sound as it exits the piano. Just think of the potential brilliance that is wasted!

Once Del has finished perfecting his ribless soundboard design, clearly the next step should be to investigate propless lids. The future of the piano may depend on it.


I'm sorry, but we're all looking in the wrong direction on how to solve the question of propping up the lid. The answer is simple: Grey Squirrels.

The average length of a Grey Squirrel is 45.75cm (18 inches).

Grey Squirrels have minimal Acoustic Impedance.

Grey Squirrels are highly trainable and work well in groups.

Every Grand Piano will come with 9 factory-trained Grey Squirrels. 8 Grey Squirrels to allow short/long position and an extra "just in case".
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
Originally Posted by Voltara
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."


That's a fantastic observation, and it leads to questions about just how self-defeating that lid prop actually is in its function.

That wooden stick holding the lid open is actually blocking some of the sound as it exits the piano. Just think of the potential brilliance that is wasted!

Once Del has finished perfecting his ribless soundboard design, clearly the next step should be to investigate propless lids. The future of the piano may depend on it.


I'm sorry, but we're all looking in the wrong direction on how to solve the question of propping up the lid. The answer is simple: Grey Squirrels.

The average length of a Grey Squirrel is 45.75cm (18 inches).

Grey Squirrels have minimal Acoustic Impedance.

Grey Squirrels are highly trainable and work well in groups.

Every Grand Piano will come with 9 factory-trained Grey Squirrels. 8 Grey Squirrels to allow short/long position and an extra "just in case".

Beavers are bigger and you would need fewer of them.

Oh, wait....

ddf
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
I read this as:

"We have a lid prop, made of maple, which can be used to lift the lid for greater clarity and brilliance of sound."

Those amazing Sauter engineers! A liftable lid...what will they think of next?
I don't have a short stick for my piano. So, on advice from the technicians' forum, I shall actually use part of a 2 piece snooker cue for the purpose. I can chose from either an ash or a hickory cue shaft. I might try each and see what differences are discernible..
Originally Posted by Voltara
[quote=ShiverMeTimbres]
That wooden stick holding the lid open is actually blocking some of the sound as it exits the piano. Just think of the potential brilliance that is wasted!

Once Del has finished perfecting his ribless soundboard design, clearly the next step should be to investigate propless lids. The future of the piano may depend on it.


That's an easy one -- all you need is a ceiling mounted winch and a cable to pull the lid up. Simple, and no stick in the way.
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimbres
....My guess, we're looking at a poorly written draft that was copied over to their other products as well....
I might be wrong, but I don't think this is them saying the maple increases the brilliance, but what the lid prop is used for.
I first thought it might be a glitch in the translation of the German text. However, the German text expresses the same thing as the English one. Several other details make me think the copy was written by an ad agency and not thoroughly edited by actual "piano people".
I've just sent in a Patent Application for "The All New, Sonically Transparent, Hover-Lid."

Operators standing by.

But Wait! There's more!

You will also receive a genuine, non-fabricated, fiber enriched, maple flavored, Note Sprayer Module!

Never Practice Again!
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
That's an easy one -- all you need is a ceiling mounted winch and a cable to pull the lid up. Simple, and no stick in the way.

As heavy as the lids are on some modern pianos this might not be a bad idea!

ddf
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