I was just wondering what people think about the difference in quality, touch, price etc?
This is a recent video of me on the Bosendorfer which I found beautiful to the touch. The bass was incredible (skip to around 2:00-2:10 when I first properly touch the bass notes)
The most obvious characteristics of a Bosendorfer imperial are the loud volume, the long sustain, and the extra bass notes. It is such a fun piano to play, you can feel the sound in your chest. The first few notes you play feel electric. The bass is solid. That said, the delicious volume comes at the cost of subtlety at the softer side of the dynamic range. It can be a frustrating instrument to try to play softly.
The Steinway D is also an excellent instrument with a strong bass, which you will miss in the shorter model (though no piano matches the bass of the Bosie). The strength of Steinway is the scale design, which lets you bring out 'color.' You might notice how clearly the melody shines when you play. It has the sound of a powerful and intimidating virtuoso, like Liszt or Rachmaninoff. Horowitz really showcases the beautiful elements of the piano in this recording:
having a piano with great bass, or as some techs would say "balls" is very good, but in a sense a very superficial trait that should not dictate all by itself a choice between piano over another.
in a musical context, a piano with amazing bass but lacking tone in the 4,5,6 octave will not sound as good as a piano that sings but lacks bass power.
If comparing to a steinway D, I never heard one that had a bass that doesn't do the job. Actually, any 9 foot piano will have more than sufficient bass. Some better than others, and yes, perhaps the Bosendorfer excels.
The point is, music is not written for the bass. A piano is not a bass guitar. Check out other pianos and pay closer attention to the octaves of the piano where most music is being played.
A steinway B or any 6-7 foot piano is possibly the perfect size for a home. But that depends if you are buying for a home or a hall...
I agree with Noam. As a left-hander, I have had to rein in my left hand on nine-footers all my life. I personally would not be impressed by marketing that boasted of a piano as having more bass than a Steinway D.
More important is that Bösendorfers and Steinways just don't sound the same. Play them both and see which one you prefer.
Well, the Bösendorfer Imperial literally has more bass than most other models of pianos.
There are a number of factors that go into the sound of the lowest notes on pianos. Length is just one of them. I have heard longer grands with what I consider to be poorer bass notes than some shorter grands. But as Damon Runyon put it, the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets!
You're focusing on volume of the bass, but don't ignore the most important part. Clarity of tone is very difficult to get, but Bosendorfer does it well. On some pianos, the overtones of the bass notes (not always an octave above the note you want) sound louder than the actual fundamental. The bass of every piano is a series of compromises, and you have to choose which ones you want to make.
So these are the things to take into consideration when looking at a bass piano.
For someone who has tried as many different 9' grands as I have during my many visits to trade fairs, factories etc, it would be impossible to single out one maker.
One would have to be slightly narcissistic or at least have a bit of a 'brand fetish' to argue otherwise...
One of the finest 9' in memory were neither Steinway or Bosie.
First, both the D and the Imperial are fantastic, but different, pianos.
I am happy that the discussion has led away from the bass on the Imperial. Yes, the bass is there if it is needed, but the strength of the Imperial, IMHO, is the clarity and control throughout the entire register, particularly if the instrument is well prepped.
I have to disagree with the comment that the Imperial lacks the ability to play softly. That is not my experience at all. Again, this only holds true if the piano is well prepped.
My experience with dissimilar concert grands is that there is a place that has a pair which live in different rooms. They are both maintained similarly, and have about equal wear on the hammers. Both have had concerts since I have been maintaining them. In both rooms, I have heard the same complaint: People saw the recording mikes, assumed they were for amplification, and said the sound was turned up too loud.
There was a two-piano concert once, and one piano was moved on stage with the other. As I tuned them, the differences were really apparent, but those differences disappeared when the pianists performed.
So my conclusion, as I have often stated, is that the most important difference in pianos of similar quality is the quality of the maintenance. The rest is a matter of personal preference, and it rarely gets past the pianist to the audience. For that reason, brand name may be important when you are buying a piano, but most people are not buying concert grands, just listening.
BDB Couldn't agree more. Maintenance and personal preference.
Re Norbert's comment "One would have to be slightly narcissistic or at least have a bit of a 'brand fetish' to argue otherwise... wink " (in singling out one brand) Sorry Norbert but I cannot agree. All you need is a strong preference for a certain sound.
I have to disagree with the comment that the Imperial lacks the ability to play softly
It's very possible that I attempt to play more softly than you (not a criticism, just trying to understand why our perceptions are different here). I do tend to play weakly sometimes.
I have to disagree with the comment that the Imperial lacks the ability to play softly
It's very possible that I attempt to play more softly than you (not a criticism, just trying to understand why our perceptions are different here). I do tend to play weakly sometimes.
It could also be that Rich has played Bosie Imperials whose actions were better regulated. In fact I would be surprised if that was not the case.
I have to disagree with the comment that the Imperial lacks the ability to play softly
It's very possible that I attempt to play more softly than you (not a criticism, just trying to understand why our perceptions are different here). I do tend to play weakly sometimes.
It could also be that Rich has played Bosie Imperials whose actions were better regulated. In fact I would be surprised if that was not the case.
The tech who regulated mine claimed to be one of the best techs around. Surely that was true!
It was interesting to hear that no current Bosendorfer Imperial (or possibly my 1905 Ibach!) can be regulated to play anything like as softly as any Steinway D.
I have the good fortune and immense pleasure to own both a D and an Imperial. They are of similar age, are maintained similarly, are located in the same room and are played an equal amount of time. My observation is that they each offer their own unique (read different types of beauty) sound palette and can both be played equally softly. So I agree with Rich and the others who emphasize the importance of the regulation and the quality of the technician.
I have the good fortune and immense pleasure to own both a D and an Imperial. They are of similar age, are maintained similarly, are located in the same room and are played an equal amount of time. My observation is that they each offer their own unique (read different types of beauty) sound palette and can both be played equally softly. So I agree with Rich and the others who emphasize the importance of the regulation and the quality of the technician.
We agree plumpfingers. I just wanted to refer to a video that I enjoy of one of my favorite artists playing a Bosendorfer Imperial in concert. Se is able to get some gorgeous delicate passages out of this piano.
I have never serviced a Bosendorfer with factory hammers that couldn't be regulated to play very well softly.
Recently, there was an art case Bose at the dealer in Bellevue WA that I played-and it did have no ability to play softly. I don't know how it got that way and I never got a look inside.
I have the good fortune and immense pleasure to own both a D and an Imperial. They are of similar age, are maintained similarly, are located in the same room and are played an equal amount of time. My observation is that they each offer their own unique (read different types of beauty) sound palette and can both be played equally softly. So I agree with Rich and the others who emphasize the importance of the regulation and the quality of the technician.
We agree plumpfingers. I just wanted to refer to a video that I enjoy of one of my favorite artists playing a Bosendorfer Imperial in concert. Se is able to get some gorgeous delicate passages out of this piano.
This is a good post, because it clarifies the issue. Indeed her playing is delicate and the piano is beautiful. The sound fills the whole concert hall. The sustain notes sing long and full.
When I play, I play for myself in a smaller room, and my desire is to play softer than even she is playing. That is why we have different opinions, we are talking about different volume levels.
Incidentally the end of this video really makes you appreciate the rich power of the Imperial's bass. You don't always need it, but when you do, it's nice to have:
I came very close to purchasing an Imperial last year. Certainly there was no problem with the action. It was prepared to a very high standard indeed and was a superb instrument. I have encountered another at a major London concert hall in a relatively poor state compared with the various D's also available. That Imperial simply needs attention.
When I play, I play for myself in a smaller room, and my desire is to play softer than even she is playing. That is why we have different opinions, we are talking about different volume levels.
Dear Phantom,
I understand. Of course I chose a professional video of an artist playing in concert. I stand by my statement that, if they are well prepared, any of the larger Bosendorfer grands can be controlled to a beautiful pianissimo in any space.
I am sorry you haven't had that experience and I respect your thoughts.
I currently have a Bosendorfer concert grand in stock - it is a 280 though, not an Imperial. I invite you to visit me in Philadelphia to see this first hand.
OR, if you like, I can make a short video from a smaller room that demonstrates the control that is possible.
When I play, I play for myself in a smaller room, and my desire is to play softer than even she is playing. That is why we have different opinions, we are talking about different volume levels.
Dear Phantom,
I understand. Of course I chose a professional video of an artist playing in concert. I stand by my statement that, if they are well prepared, any of the larger Bosendorfer grands can be controlled to a beautiful pianissimo in any space.
I am sorry you haven't had that experience and I respect your thoughts.
I currently have a Bosendorfer concert grand in stock - it is a 280 though, not an Imperial. I invite you to visit me in Philadelphia to see this first hand.
OR, if you like, I can make a short video from a smaller room that demonstrates the control that is possible.
Let me know if you would enjoy seeing that.
I am always happy to increase my knowledge about pianos, but I am quite certain we are talking about different dynamic levels here. I've played on well prepped 290s and poorly prepped 290s, but maybe you can do better.
I would love to come visit you. I am in California though, so it's a bit of a trip. I probably won't be able to make it until next month at the earliest. Actually that sounds like a really fun trip so let me see what I can arrange. I start a new job next week so my schedule is a bit unpredictable.
I would imagine that any piano costing over $100,000, if prepped well, should be able to handle dynamics from ultra loud to ultra quiet. Perhaps the performer is even more important. My daughter, and my tuner for that matter, can make my piano sound much better than I can, but that is my problem. The videos offered above are good examples of artists who can bring out the best in a piano. I would guess just about any professional concert artist could. Just one other thought: at a concert isn't it a given that the pianist has to play loud enough for the hall so playing loud is more common than if the performance were in a salon or small home. I can play very softly on my BB, but that would be a disaster in a concert with 1500 seats wouldn't it? (I have to confess that I attended a concert with my eldest daughter to hear my favorite concerto, the RACH 2. The performer, a very highly-regarded Grammy-winning classical artist, was attempting to give a subtle, delicate performance and even though we had seats very close to the stage in a really famous, fine hall, I had trouble hearing a lot of it. I was really sorry to have such a bad experience as my daughter had taken me to the concert as a special birthday present and I had to kind of fib in my comments to her after the concert. I hated doing that but didn't want to take anything away from her excitement at taking me to hear one of my favorite works with this famous artist.) The sound had nothing to do with the brand of piano. It was a Steinway D which has performed admirably at other concerts in the same venue.
Thank you for all the comments everyone. I appreciate the feedback on my question. If anyone has time to give my videos a view and a like on Youtube (both played on the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial) I'd really appreciate it.
I'll be playing my first Steinway D in April so I'll finally be able to put all your advice to the test and see the difference for myself. Here are the links if you'd be kind enough:
...and even though we had seats very close to the stage in a really famous, fine hall, I had trouble hearing a lot of it.
These are both OT observations on my part. Sitting on the floor close to the stage in Avery Fisher, you really can't hear anything clearly. I feel like the best sound in AFH is up in the cheap seats. And I'll also say that Carnegie Hall isn't very good for piano concerti. Anything outside of the proscenium arch doesn't project well, which unfortunately is where the piano will normally be located--especially with a large orchestra.
When I play, I play for myself in a smaller room, and my desire is to play softer than even she is playing. That is why we have different opinions, we are talking about different volume levels.
Dear Phantom,
I understand. Of course I chose a professional video of an artist playing in concert. I stand by my statement that, if they are well prepared, any of the larger Bosendorfer grands can be controlled to a beautiful pianissimo in any space.
I am sorry you haven't had that experience and I respect your thoughts.
I currently have a Bosendorfer concert grand in stock - it is a 280 though, not an Imperial. I invite you to visit me in Philadelphia to see this first hand.
OR, if you like, I can make a short video from a smaller room that demonstrates the control that is possible.
Let me know if you would enjoy seeing that.
I am always happy to increase my knowledge about pianos, but I am quite certain we are talking about different dynamic levels here. I've played on well prepped 290s and poorly prepped 290s, but maybe you can do better.
I would love to come visit you. I am in California though, so it's a bit of a trip. I probably won't be able to make it until next month at the earliest. Actually that sounds like a really fun trip so let me see what I can arrange. I start a new job next week so my schedule is a bit unpredictable.
If anyone is vaguely interested in this topic, I visited Rich at Cunningham Piano, and his Bosendorfer indeed is easy to play, even at extremely quiet volume levels. I first played it softly, and frustrated that it was so easy ( ) I played even more softly. The notes stayed even no matter how softly I played until the sound was too soft to be heard.
Also perhaps worth mentioning, I measured the 290 with a sound meter, and the maximum sound wasn't actually higher in decibels than other pianos. It certainly is more powerful, and you can actually feel the sound in your chest when you play, but in terms of raw volume, it isn't appreciably louder.
@phantomFive, the ability to play softly on a 290 and the maximum output (dB) is a function that is adjustable by a technician that knows well the inner working of the system: reduce hammer mass and you get faster hammers (higher output) and greater control over an expand pianissimo range. There are trade offs: you may then not like the feel of the keyboard (i.e., it will be lighter), but there are ways around that as well.
For me, the 290 is the ultimate choice for one specific reason: those extra bass notes can be timed earlier to adjust the perceived reverb in the room. This make a 290 more flexible in different spaces, as it can easily be adjusted to enhance the acoustics of the room.
Here is my 290, in my tiny kitchen/living room, with my wife playing the piano: [video:youtube]PtHhAuSptpY[/video]
That is a beautifully played Liebestraum and a lovely sounding Bose. Although this thread is Bose 290 v Steinway D, I thought people here would enjoy comparing the Bose to a Steingraeber in the same music. The Steingraeber is nearly 2 feet smaller, but I think does rather nicely. Maybe we should start a new thread with these 2 videos. I think it is interesting.
Of course, the Bose has the advantage of the cute dog strategically placed to absorb some of the upper partials!
Keith, isn't that pushing the, ahem, marketing restriction?
The piano in the video was sold long ago. The first thing i did after listening to Ms Mimaki's beautiful Liebestraum was listen to the Pandolfi recording and compare the very different sounding pianos. I am sure many others will do the same thing and find it fascinating. Probably deserves its own thread. This is exactly the kind of thing that people who frequent the forum find interesting.
lol...that treble pin warmer is Katy; she just turned 12 and she loves the piano! [video:youtube]9372_QIPBAk[/video]
@Keith D Kerman, she's actually not strategically placed to absorb some of the upper partials--which is a common irritant with 290. That is simply how I have the piano setup now. Here is the same piano 4 years ago--in the same location--when we first got it...the piano sounds much different now after I've had a chance to really work on it. [video:youtube]dY0grROh88U[/video]
@Keith D Kerman, lol...there is a lot of truth in a joke, that's what makes it funny (i.e., like Minnesota Marty's signature: it's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one)! And, with a 290, the capo section can often be outright ugly with screaming/stringy partials. I have often gone to extreme lengths with other 290s to tame down that wildness. :-D
And, BTW, that Steingraeber has a beautiful forward singing tone; thanks for sharing!
When I play, I play for myself in a smaller room, and my desire is to play softer than even she is playing. That is why we have different opinions, we are talking about different volume levels.
Dear Phantom,
I understand. Of course I chose a professional video of an artist playing in concert. I stand by my statement that, if they are well prepared, any of the larger Bosendorfer grands can be controlled to a beautiful pianissimo in any space.
I am sorry you haven't had that experience and I respect your thoughts.
I currently have a Bosendorfer concert grand in stock - it is a 280 though, not an Imperial. I invite you to visit me in Philadelphia to see this first hand.
OR, if you like, I can make a short video from a smaller room that demonstrates the control that is possible.
Let me know if you would enjoy seeing that.
I am always happy to increase my knowledge about pianos, but I am quite certain we are talking about different dynamic levels here. I've played on well prepped 290s and poorly prepped 290s, but maybe you can do better.
I would love to come visit you. I am in California though, so it's a bit of a trip. I probably won't be able to make it until next month at the earliest. Actually that sounds like a really fun trip so let me see what I can arrange. I start a new job next week so my schedule is a bit unpredictable.
If anyone is vaguely interested in this topic, I visited Rich at Cunningham Piano, and his Bosendorfer indeed is easy to play, even at extremely quiet volume levels. I first played it softly, and frustrated that it was so easy ( ) I played even more softly. The notes stayed even no matter how softly I played until the sound was too soft to be heard.
Also perhaps worth mentioning, I measured the 290 with a sound meter, and the maximum sound wasn't actually higher in decibels than other pianos. It certainly is more powerful, and you can actually feel the sound in your chest when you play, but in terms of raw volume, it isn't appreciably louder.
Phantom,
What a blast to have you visit all the way from San Diego! I was glad to meet you, spend time with you, and hear your opinions on a variety of our instruments.
I hope you get a chance to stop back today before you fly out.
That is a beautifully played Liebestraum and a lovely sounding Bose. Although this thread is Bose 290 v Steinway D, I thought people here would enjoy comparing the Bose to a Steingraeber in the same music. The Steingraeber is nearly 2 feet smaller, but I think does rather nicely. Maybe we should start a new thread with these 2 videos. I think it is interesting.
Of course, the Bose has the advantage of the cute dog strategically placed to absorb some of the upper partials!
I have heard recordings with Bösendorfer where the soft dynamics sounded just perfect. So, it might be that it is easier to play subtle on a Steinway, it is possible to play very very subtle on a Bösendorfer. I don't buy the "it is just an instrument with a good bass" thing.
Edit: lol, I missed the post of phantomfive, so my post missed its point.
I have heard recordings with Bösendorfer where the soft dynamics sounded just perfect. So, it might be that it is easier to play subtle on a Steinway, it is possible to play very very subtle on a Bösendorfer. I don't buy the "it is just an instrument with a good bass" thing.
Edit: lol, I missed the post of phantomfive, so my post missed its point.
Thanks. I'm going to have to add that if anyone thought I said, "the only good thing about the Bösendorfer is the bass," they really missed my point.
I'll reprise what I said, because I still think it's true:
"The most obvious characteristics of a Bosendorfer imperial are the power, the long sustain, and the extra notes. It is such a fun piano to play, you can feel the sound in your chest. The first few notes you play feel electric. The bass is clear and beautiful."
I've played way more Steinway's than Bosies but in general my impressions are that the Bosie is very easy to play softly. The Bosie excels at allowing the pianist to express himself. Playing trills is so easy on the Bosie. I do not agree that the Bosie is more powerful than the Steinway in the bass. My impression has always been that Bosie is more suited to the softer music, or Bach and jazz such as in the Oscar Petersen style since the sound is more fundamental than the Steinway sound. I think a Bosie would be great for a piano trio also. I think a Steinway is great for the complex sound it gives and is better suited to music such as Rachmaninoff (my favorite composer). Thats the sound I prefer. The two actions are quite different, each with its own advantages.
) I played even more softly. The notes stayed even no matter how softly I played until the sound was too soft to be heard.