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Posted By: Mar23 Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/05/13 10:33 PM
I am looking at buying a reasonably priced, new preferable, baby grand. Right now the two pianos interesting me are the Kawai GM10 and the Yamaha GB1K. I've like both and have played both. Prices vary so much. It's a little frustrating actually.
Can anyone give me an idea of how much negotiating room there usually is in pianos. I would think another $1000 off the prices the sales people are asking would be reasonable.
Thank you.

Please note I edited this post to take out details on pricing.
Posted By: BerndAB Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/05/13 11:05 PM
John Ruskin (authenticity of citation disputed..):

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Ruskin

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."
Posted By: BornInTheUSA Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/05/13 11:18 PM
You won't get much help here. People here will tell you to go look at PianoBuyer which has an SMP price (suggested max, a more realistic MSRP basically) and then to expect anywhere from 10-30% off that. So if you think that's useful then you can give that a try.

Not sure if it was that particular Yamaha, but I saw one of their small baby grands at Costco. It was one of the Gxxx, not their C/Cx series. And I remember the tag on that said 8900, so I think that's the actual sticker price, the MSRP is not very useful.

My advice would be to tell the Kawai & Yamaha dealers that you're in love with the Hardman and it's a great deal with an asking of $6500 (which means he'll probably take $5000). Don't expect him to match that price, but use that as your anchor. That's probably the best path to price discovery.

Those Yamaha/Kawai's are their entry level grands so it's conceivable the Hardman is just as good.
Posted By: BornInTheUSA Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/05/13 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by BerndAB
John Ruskin (authenticity of citation disputed..):

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Ruskin

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."


Sometimes you can get what you want, for the price you want smile
Posted By: Rickster Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 12:23 AM
Hi Mar23, and welcome to Piano World!

MichaleH is right to an extent, in that actual selling prices on new pianos are sort of taboo here on the forums. There are many piano dealers who are members here, and they just don’t get too involved in discussing prices here, for various reasons.

And, I happen to think that the info in PianoBuyer is very helpful, and is about as close as you are going to get in terms of estimated selling prices on new pianos.

Also, for what it is worth, I think your process of deduction and your shopping experiences have helped you to more or less answer your own questions.

Maybe someone will chime in who has purchased one of the models you are interested in recently and state what they paid… some people are sensitive about revealing the prices they paid for something and some people seem to want to brag about it, if they think they got a really good deal.

By all means, keep us informed of your progress and your decision! A baby grand piano is a fabulous musical instrument to have in your home, and a beautiful piece of furniture! smile

Rick
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 04:19 AM
Hi Mar23. Welcome to the Piano forums!

Like you, I'm relatively new here, and went through a similar buying process. I was somewhat frustrated about what seemed like vague answers, or non-answers, but I realized it was partly due to how I phrased my questions.

But the reality of new piano prices is that there isn't a "the price" for any given model. It's just like buying a new car. In general, dealers--of both cars and pianos--practice price discrimination: they want to charge each customer the maximum amount that they can (understandably). But very seldom will any two customers pay the same price. Of course, each dealer has a "bottom-line" price they're willing to sell for, and that is also different for each dealer. It's based on all sorts of things, like his own wholesale cost for the piano (or car), his overhead (rent, utilities, administrative costs, etc), and how desperate he may be to make a sale and/or move inventory. You may get a better price by visiting a different dealer (maybe in the next town), or considering a substitute (a comparable piano from a different manufacturer). You can also use those various numbers as information (ammunition?) to help you negotiate a better price with the dealer who's selling the piano you really want.

Remember, at any given time, the dealer trying to sell you a piano has a market of one: you! Every dealer in town--and nearby towns--is eager to sell you their piano. You, on the other hand, can buy your piano from anyone, anywhere. He wants to sell you a piano worse than you want to buy one.

Anyway, people on this site will be reluctant to throw out concrete numbers, but you can search this database for new grands:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/search_grand.php

It lists MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price) and SMP (Suggested Maxiumum Price), and once you've searched once, there's another box that let's you adjust those by a discount percent. While people are reluctant to post prices, I have seen people post rule-of-thumb numbers about how much discount to expect by brand (like, Steinway doesn't, but so-and-so will discount 30%). I can't find those posts right now--perhaps someone will post some typical discount amounts--but you can query that database with the typical discount values and see what might fall into your budget range. It may also give you a starting point for haggling a good price.

I didn't go very far down the road searching for new pianos, because I decided I'd get a better value with an older second hand piano. But I was tempted by the new ones.

Good luck with your search.

Posted By: Major Major Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 01:31 PM
Mar23,

It's actually a good time to be buying a piano. There are many good choices out there today, for a reasonable amount of money. Definitely check out the Ritmullers (RH series), Hailuns, and Brodmans if you have dealers in your area. Dollar for dollar and feature for feature, they are all great values and higly rated within their price range.

Also, having recently completed a 3 month shopping period and now 3 months into my new baby grand my suggestion to you is to give (or take) considerable points based on the quality of the dealership itself. Dealer prep, follow up service, etc. will be very important. Use all the tools available to you. Beware... you will hear some real BS out there so double check and validate any statements made by salespeople. Beware of those who trash the competition as their main sales tool. You will know... if you begin to feel like you're in a used car lot with the salesperson wearing a plaid sport coat head for the hills.

I discovered, that in my area of the US, 20% or a bit more off the SMP listed on Piano Buyer, was common. There is a tool on top of the list that will allow you to plug in the discount amount and it will automatically present the "real" price. I understand that the discount levels can differ in various regions so you'll have to get an idea of your area's norm. In any event, the 20% should be a good jump off point.

I eventually bought from a top notch dealership and that cost me a touch more but it was well worth it and I have no regrets. I just had my "courtesy tuning and follow up visit" and it, like the entire transaction, went very well. I love my piano and take great comfort in knowing that, in the ulikely event of a problem, I, and my piano, will be in the best of hands. I trust my dealer and that, as they say, is "priceless".

Do your homework and it will go well. It's hard work but kind of fun at the same time.

Good luck!

[i][/i]
Posted By: Rickster Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
But the reality of new piano prices is that there isn't a "the price" for any given model. It's just like buying a new car. In general, dealers--of both cars and pianos--practice price discrimination: they want to charge each customer the maximum amount that they can (understandably).

You make an excellent point, and you are right, in essence; but I think the term “price discrimination” is a little harsh. The word “discrimination” in itself makes someone a villain or a bad guy.

I see the negotiation process, regardless of the item being bought or sold, as a bidding process from both buyer and seller. No one is holding anyone hostage to buy or sell. If buyer and seller cannot agree on a price, then no business will occur.

Just my .02.

Rick
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 04:21 PM
Thanks for all the input.

I live in Colorado. The biggest dealer in the area is Schmitt Music. There's also Pianos N Pianos and a couple of smaller dealers.

Posted By: SBP Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:19 PM
The Yamaha GB1 is pretty meh for a baby grand. The music rack isn't movable, the middle pedal's a bass-sustain instead of a sostenuto, and the tone's pretty generic. The Kawai GM-10 is a nice little piano with sostenuto and a good tone (not sure about the music rack). All things being equal, I'd go with the Kawai or maybe the Harmann (despite the goofy name). But most importantly, try them out and see which one you love the most. Sometimes it's not the features or looks or price that matters, but how well it speaks to you and how happy you are with it wink
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:31 PM
Hi Mar23,

At Schmitt's, have you tried the Lyrica, their house brand? It is built by Pearl River and is a custom upgrade from the standard issue P.R. It's a very nice entry level grand and will compete well with the Yamahas and Kawais you mentioned. It is identical to the Cristofori, from Jordan Kitts, and you will find it in the "Piano Buyer" under the Cristofori entry.

Didn't Schmitt's buy the stock from the defunct Baker Music? There may be some bargains to be had.

Good Luck and Have Fun!
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:37 PM
I haven't tried it but am going in this week to Schmitt's to try it as well as the Kawai GM10. How would you say the Lyrica compares to a Hardman. Both are in the same price range. Schmitt's have a promo on now on Kawai's, $1000 instant rebate. The person I was talking to said prices aren't much different between the Lyrica(they still have some under the Cristofori name). If I like the Lyrica; going to play some blues and classical on them, and can get at least $1000 off their price I may go for that.
Posted By: rlinkt Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:38 PM
Mar23,

You have received a lot of good advice above. If you have settled on the models, and are strictly in the pricing stage, then I do not have anything to add. If you are still trying to find the right piano, then Pianoismyscrip's suggestions are useful. I had spent time piano shopping a little over 15 months back. My impression was similar to what Scrip says. Once I put aside the prejudices about the country of origin, and really just listened to the piano, things looked quite different from the preconceptions that I had started with. Everybody must form their own opinion. I would recommend at least finding dealers who carry the Ritmullers, Hailuns, and Brodmann, and giving them a try.

IMHO, there are a couple of fairly fundamental tonal differences across pianos, most notable in the bass/tenor region to my ears. Some of the pianos have a more fundamental heavy sound, while other designs have less emphasis on the fundamental. They sound richer at initial listen, but lack that deep sound which you may care about. One of my friends has a GB1K, and this particular piano to me is definitely in the second group -- a tone that does not appeal to me much. Since your piano is likely to be a somewhat long commitment, I recommend taking a good look at the characteristics before making a price based decision.
Posted By: KurtZ Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Rickster
Hi Mar23, and welcome to Piano World!

MichaleH is right to an extent, in that actual selling prices on new pianos are sort of taboo here on the forums.



Rick,

WADR: Remember that your voice carries the resonance of a moderator. Is it taboo or isn't it? There's a WHOLE LOT of stuff that comes up around this and some days I or someone else might take up the gauntlet in iconoclastic battle but today, I decline. Today, I am like our friend Norbert. I am innocence itself and offer nothing but a morsel that might lead another to insight or maybe not.

Kurt
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 05:53 PM
It's really a combination for me of quality and best bang for my buck. I am just a little frustrated in my search as price for the same piano in same geographical location varies so much.
Sorry for saying too much on price, I won't bring it up again but when you are spending a lot of money on something, to me price is important.
Thanks again for the suggestions. This week is to go and try them out.
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Mar23
How would you say the Lyrica compares to a Hardman.

I would put the Lyrica a solid step above the Hardman.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Mar23
It's really a combination for me of quality and best bang for my buck.


Just as something of a reality check, keep in mind you're looking at the price-oriented, entry-level small grands in each instance you cite. As long as you have casual use and lower performance/usage expectations, buy from a dealer who set the piano up to play well, and engage in a decent maintenance regimen, a beginner or early intermediate player could be satisfied with the choice. Entry-level pianos have gotten significantly better over the years, but "high quality" isn't a fair descriptor.

You probably don't want to hear this, but that kind of money would buy a good quality, nice-sounding new vertical piano or possibly a used piano of greater quality (subject to condition and inspection).
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 06:50 PM
Hey Mar23 - Price is important to all of us. If not, we would simply recommend you buy the exquisite Exorbitant, Excalibur, un Sohne. You can get them in polished, or matte 24K gold. For the budget minded, they can be ordered in gold leaf.

wink - crazy

Posted By: Major Major Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mar23
It's really a combination for me of quality and best bang for my buck. I am just a little frustrated in my search as price for the same piano in same geographical location varies so much.
Sorry for saying too much on price, I won't bring it up again but when you are spending a lot of money on something, to me price is important.
Thanks again for the suggestions. This week is to go and try them out.


If you want the biggest bang for the buck in your price range then, by all means, audition the Brodmans, Hailuns, and Ritts (GH series). I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I mention these manufacturers because of the price point of the models you are considering.
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 07:36 PM
I have a nice upright now; looking to upgrade. smile
Posted By: Rickster Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by KurtZ

Originally Posted by Rickster
Hi Mar23, and welcome to Piano World!

MichaleH is right to an extent, in that actual selling prices on new pianos are sort of taboo here on the forums.


Rick,

WADR: Remember that your voice carries the resonance of a moderator. Is it taboo or isn't it? There's a WHOLE LOT of stuff that comes up around this and some days I or someone else might take up the gauntlet in iconoclastic battle but today, I decline. Today, I am like our friend Norbert. I am innocence itself and offer nothing but a morsel that might lead another to insight or maybe not.

Kurt

Hi KurtZ,

When I was in college I took a course entitle “Organizational Behavior”; it was basically a course of study on how various organizations behave as an entity or as a whole. In fact, organizations have/develop a unique personality/demeanor much like an individual. I suppose you might say this is the “image” an organization exhibits or portrays. Piano World is no different.

With that said, it is my view that discussions of actual selling prices here are somewhat taboo, in that it could very well hurt some dealer members, because they may not be able to sell the same piano for that particular price… that is my opinion alone, and there is no hard and fast rule on discussing prices. If you, or any other member want to discuss the prices they paid, go right ahead. Does is show respect for our dealer members here? I’m not so sure.

So, at times I suppose I’m danged if I do and danged if I don’t, in regards to my comments here.

Also, for the record, not only do I consider Norbert a friend, but I consider every member here, dealer and non-dealer alike, a friend. And, I am not so much pro-dealer as I am pro Piano World.

However, I am not so naive to think that everybody here is my friend. Kind of reminds me of a blues tune I wrote with some lyrics that say, “I learned a long time ago that everybody ain’t your friend and every thing that glitters ain’t gold”. smile

Rick


Posted By: Jonathan Alford Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Mar23
Thanks for all the input.

I live in Colorado. The biggest dealer in the area is Schmitt Music. There's also Pianos N Pianos and a couple of smaller dealers.



You also have Onofrio Piano (South Broadway) in Denver and Boulder Piano Gallery.

When I was looking, I visited them both and found them to be very helpful.

Good luck,

Jonathan
Posted By: Minnesota Marty Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 09:26 PM
Hi Rick,

I too was wondering about "taboo" and if it was from a piano world policy or just your general assessment of the forum. You have explained it as the latter.

It's probably the word itself. It's highly charged. It wouldn't have been even noticed if "Sometimes people feel hesitant .....," or some such thing would have been used.

Water under the bridge.

Communication around here can often be like walking on eggs!

grin
Posted By: Rickster Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/06/13 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Hi Rick,

I too was wondering about "taboo" and if it was from a piano world policy or just your general assessment of the forum. You have explained it as the latter.

It's probably the word itself. It's highly charged. It wouldn't have been even noticed if "Sometimes people feel hesitant .....," or some such thing would have been used.

Water under the bridge.

Communication around here can often be like walking on eggs! grin

Hi Marty,

I apologize that my use of the word “taboo” was not as clear as it should have been. Being articulate and well spoken is something I’ve always admired in a person; I’d like to think that I’m a good communicator, but I guess I can use some improvement in that area (as well as my piano playing smile ).

And, there are many highly articulate and well spoken folks here on Piano World, Dr. Minnesota Marty among them. smile

Now, let me tell you how much I paid for my last piano… laugh

Rick
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/07/13 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Rickster
but I think the term “price discrimination” is a little harsh. The word “discrimination” in itself makes someone a villain or a bad guy.

Didn't mean to be offensive--it's a standard phrase in Economics--but I can see how it might sound a little harsh to people who don't know it. Basically it means no one is treated the same regarding price--each customer pays a different price (i.e. as much as the seller can get out of them).
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/07/13 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by Rickster
I see the negotiation process, regardless of the item being bought or sold, as a bidding process from both buyer and seller. No one is holding anyone hostage to buy or sell. If buyer and seller cannot agree on a price, then no business will occur.

Just my .02.

Rick

I agree. I also love to haggle and get a good deal! laugh
Posted By: Mike Carr Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/07/13 10:04 PM
"Discriminatory pricing" in the piano industry is probably more applicable to student/teacher discounts, institutional sales, paying different prices for the same model with a different name on it, and group buying than say the customer who simply walks in to purchase a piano, the main element missing, of course, is any detailed information on the purchaser's surplus, or how much money can the salespro shake out of them.

While it's easy to label any non-linear pricing as discriminatory or deceptive my argument would be that if there is any discrimination or bias it's not based on gender, race, ethnicity, religious bent, or economic class (ability to pay) but one's ability/skill to haggle or bore the salespro to the point of capitulation.

Given that every piano in a retail joint has a bottom line or LSD (lowest street dollar), it's not so much negotiating in the classic sense of haggling with a street vendor, craiglister or sidewalk rug merchant whose costs and therefore prices, especially with the craiglister, may be indecipherable, but revealing a solid retail price that is lurking behind door number three.

Of course, the salespros are good at sizing up the customer's wallet. Maybe they notice the fire in the parking lot is the customer's Tesla burning to the ground. Maybe they notice the navitimer the customer is wearing.

But then there are always the customers who pretend, hide their economic ranking, and show up in a tilting rusting pick-up with their granny (or an actress) sitting in back, usually in a fraying lawn chair, smoking a corncob pipe and strumming a zither to the tune of the Third Man (this can be unnerving to even the most consumate salespro).

It might be more difficult in the bay area sizing up the marks because most of the money wanders around looking like Canadian gardeners or they're wearing Hemingway's old fishing clothes complete with a few bloodied hooks.

So, the first question the salespro asks out of the box is generally, after the weather is discussed and last night's earthquake, what price instrument are you looking for?

Any perceived surplus that the salespro fails to shake loose can later be siphoned off by the dealer's cut of various "continuing service" schemes.


Mike
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/08/13 12:36 AM
Excellent post!

Originally Posted by Mike Carr
"Discriminatory pricing" ... how much money can the salespro shake out of them.

This is probably a little different than you intended, I think, but the above is the practical definition of "price discrimination." According to Google: "the action of selling the same product at different prices to different buyers, in order to maximize sales and profits," which is how I meant it.

Originally Posted by Mike Carr
While it's easy to label any non-linear pricing as discriminatory or deceptive my argument would be that if there is any discrimination or bias it's not based on gender, race, ethnicity, religious bent, or economic class (ability to pay) but one's ability/skill to haggle or bore the salespro to the point of capitulation.

You could also say how persuasive one might be in convincing a seller that he's got to discount in order to make a sale, forcing him to acknowledge competition and/or the likelihood that he might not make a sale at all.

Also, to be fair, the buyer is also discriminating, or should be: how much are they willing to give for a specific thing, or what's the best thing they can get for their price/budget/surplus.

For example, I just bought a piano for roughly $2000. I could have gone to the nearest dealer, and said "what can I get for $2000?" In which case I would have ended up with a mediocre Aeolian variant. I also could have decided I wanted a specific model, and gone to a dealer and paid MSRP/SMP/discounted SMP for it. Or I could have found a second-hand one at a dealer paid whatever he was willing to take for it. I tried to maximize my value by finding the best one I could pay the least for (and I think I did pretty well, but that's a different story).

Originally Posted by Mike Carr
But then there are always the customers who pretend, hide their economic ranking, and show up in a tilting rusting pick-up with their granny (or an actress) sitting in back

You can bet, I show up at a Craigslister's house in my ratty Jeep Wrangler, and not my BMW. ;-) A ratty Jeep has some cache in certain circles--a la your Canadian gardeners, but probably not with most piano sellers.

Originally Posted by Mike Carr
So, the first question the salespro asks out of the box is ... what price instrument are you looking for?

And you never, ever want to answer that question. Not with pianos, or cars, or houses, or anything! Because the salesman is wondering what the least thing of value he can give is, while still taking all of your money (maximizing his profit and minimizing your value)!

Anyway, this is probably getting too far off topic...
Posted By: Chopinlover49 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/08/13 03:31 PM
All this advice is probably good, but at some point you just have to take the leap. You will probably never know if you got a good deal, only if you got a good piano.
Posted By: Mike Carr Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/08/13 06:05 PM
Rets,

This kind of first degree price discrimination you're describing is theoretical at best and one of the conditions is that the seller has a detailed description of the buyer. When you think about it, it is difficult to discriminate without having some kind of basis to discriminate. If no one had known that John Garfield was Jewish in the movie "Gentleman's Agreement" you wouldn't have had a movie. The movie went into dramatic overdrive when Gregory Peck pretended to be Jewish.

So, when someone wanders into a piano store the salespro has no idea of his comfort level, as far as spending, and has to make guesses based on leading questions and appearance (number of prison tattoos, hygiene, diction, etc.), which can be misleading. If two people pay different prices for the same piano based purely on their ability to negotiate, I wouldn't call that discrimination. Of course, any number of economists would argue with that, but then they like to argue almost as much as they like to write books that no one understands.

Mike
Posted By: Rickster Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/08/13 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Mike Carr
Of course, the salespros are good at sizing up the customer's wallet.

The last time I visited a major piano store, I’m quite sure the salespeople sized me up and read me pretty well… of course, I did a little sizing up myself; I was the only customer in the store at the time and there were 4 salespeople there at the time, including the store owner. There were 5 vehicles in the parking lot… my red Chevy pick-up truck and 4 late model Mercedes Benz sedans.

If one’s income/financial status is judged by the vehicle they drive… well, I need say no more. smile

Rick
Posted By: thetandyman Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/09/13 02:06 AM
Tell them, whether true or not, that you would be writing a check, and also tell them that you may just buy a new car instead. They will fawn over you and try to get your attention. I have been in the car business for many years, and if they think you are undecided, and well qualified, they will probably cut to the chase with the price! Good luck!
Posted By: Furtwangler Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/09/13 03:12 AM
Yeah, see...when you are the customer, it's ok to lie. And cheat the dealer! It's fun! Go ahead.

Say anything you like. Lie like a dog. You're the customer. Come on - do it.

Ethics only go in one direction - didn't you know that??

Posted By: Plowboy Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/09/13 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Yeah, see...when you are the customer, it's ok to lie. And cheat the dealer! It's fun! Go ahead.


That's the game the industry has created for itself.
Posted By: Norbert Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/09/13 04:46 PM
Quote
There were 5 vehicles in the parking lot… my red Chevy pick-up truck and 4 late model Mercedes Benz sedans.

If one’s income/financial status is judged by the vehicle they drive… well, I need say no more.



I guess I couldn't work there myself driving only a VW TDI.

At least it's U.S. made....

Norbert wink
Posted By: thetandyman Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/10/13 11:03 PM
Anyone with any knowledge should respect a driver of a VW TDI. There is a prudent and careful man. That might speak volumes about the spending habits of the potential buyer. As I have said before, I'm in the auto business, and we have cars ranging from Rolls, to Cavaliers. My company car of choice is always a hybrid or anything that gets 40+ mpg! I receive free gas, but I love saving money for the corp, and being a saving, sensible American. TA DA!
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/11/13 12:13 AM
So I went into a couple of piano stores today. Both had really nice helpful salespeople. Not at all pushy, quite informative and friendly.

I've played a Cable Nelson, really nice sound IMO
A brand new Young Chang. Much nicer sound on this one than others I played.
A Boston, really nice sound both in my blues and classical music
A Hailun. Also nice.
I've also tried a new Hardman, a Kawai, Hallet Davis and some older pianos.

Right now my favorites are the Boston, Young Chang, and Hallet Davis.

I'll decide over the next little while which I will be getting. Either way I'm happy with what I've been seeing.

Posted By: Norbert Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/11/13 01:23 AM
Quote

Right now my favorites are the Boston, Young Chang, and Hallet Davis.


I presume these pianos are all in quite different price ranges.

If you'd take the most expensive one, perhaps the Boston, and then see what else you might get for same money, you could be most likely surprised.

Shopping by "brand" almost immediately eliminates the competitive edge you would get in today's market with an abundance of attractive choices at often similar price point.

The moment price point is not similar, all bets are off....

"Money" directly related to available quality at a particular price point is where it's really at in today's market.

Which is highly competitive - your ADVANTAGE.

Use it.

The only guarantee/promise to make a truly optimal choice for yourself.

Norbert
Posted By: Mar23 Re: Upgrading to a Baby Grand. - 10/11/13 01:51 AM
It wasn't price I was thinking about today. I brought in an assortment of music and played them all. The most expensive was the Boston, yes but not a lot more as it's a 98. Cheapest I've seen were the Hardman, Hallet Davis and Young Chang.
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