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Recently I've been looking for a digital piano for about $500. I've played piano for a long time, and am currently a grad student in an apartment so getting an acoustic is out of the question. My school does have several practice pianos available, but there's usually a waiting list for them since so many people want to use them, so I've been wanting to get a digital to supplement learning new pieces. Basically, work out more elementary stuff like fingering with the digital, and perhaps play some simpler pieces on it, but work on more technical stuff and phrasing etc. on the practice pianos at school where it's harder to get access, to maintain my touch and improve my technique on acoustic pianos.

Recently on craigslist, a local church is selling their Kohler KD-50 for $500. However, I haven't been able to find much information on it, other than a quick guide at the Kohler site (http://www.kohlerdigitalpianos.com/downloads.htm, it shares the same quick guide as the KD-30 apparently). So I'm looking for more details about this particular model.

My questions are:
1. Does anyone have experience with the Kohler KD-50, or anything from Kohler? In terms of quality, how long they last, etc. This one is obviously past warranty, so I don't want to spend $500 on something that will soon break.
2. Is there any information about its technical info? I found that apparently the action is made by Fatar, and the sound is by Korg, but I'm not really sure of its implications (good/bad quality). Since this model is from a while ago, I'd be curious as to how its action compares with the action of newer models. Also, about things like sensors per key, key fulcrum, etc.
3. Incidentally, I haven't been able to find anything about how heavy it is. I would have to move the thing myself.

I will be dropping by the church to try it out and test for broken keys etc. before I decide if I want it, but I'd like to get some info on it first.

I've also been looking at getting a new digital piano instead. Right now I'm looking at the Casio Privia PX-150, which is $500 and seems to be closest to what I'm looking for (most convincing action for the price, although I'm aware that none of them are all that convincing). So I have a few questions about it:

1. I went down to the local Guitar Center to try out different digital pianos but they said they couldn't plug the Casio models in for me to hear the sound, since they didn't have the AC adapter for it in the store. So I could only try out the feel of the keys. The Guitar Center salesperson said that the Casio Privia PX-150 doesn't come with an AC adapter, so I'd have to spend extra money to buy one. Is this true for people that have bought this model? I should note that afterwards I checked Guitar Center's own website and it said it came with an AC adapter. Coincidentally or not, their Williams Allegro and Williams Rhapsody models were plugged in and turned on for anybody to try out in the store.
2. People seem to have issues with mechanical clicking noises on the Casio Privia series. Is that really a widespread issue? What other quality issues are there for this model?

Thanks for any help!

FWIW --

The PX-350 comes with an adapter. I assume the PX-150 does, as well. If the GC website says "included", it's included.

Clicking? No clicking on my PX-350, which has an identical action. _Any_ DP (almost) will have an action that seems "noisy" when it's turned off, or playing at low volume.

Acoustic actions are also "noisy", but you don't hear them over the sound of the strings.

In your situation, I'd buy the PX-150. It's compact, has a decent action. and won't have years of use on it.

The other DP to try, in that price range, is the Yamaha P105. I don't like it as much as the PX-150 (much lighter action on the P105), but it would be OK.

. Charles

PS -- bias -- I own a PX-350.

Yes, PX-150 comes with the AC adapter - bought a PX-150 at my local GC last week.

I've been pleasantly surprised that the action feels better here at home than the demos in the store. Probably not being beaten on all the time is helpful - and I'm able to adjust the sound (thru headphones) more carefully at home than in the store. Improving the sound makes the action feel subjectively better - more connected. (I'm not saying the sound is great. But adjusting it and being sure the volume is turned up to a realistic level makes a difference.)

Yeah I tried the Yamaha P105 this week. At Guitar Center it was also not plugged in, but I was able to try it out at another music store. It sounded a bit too bright for my taste, although I think it's probably just because Yamaha gets their sound samples from their own pianos which also sound too bright for my taste. I prefer more of a Steinway mellow. One thing I do like about the Casio PX-150 is that apparently you can change the brightness/mellowness of the sound, which will be nice if I don't like the default grand piano sound.

One of my concerns about the Casio PX-150 is that I haven't been able to hear how it sounds, both in terms of the sound quality and in terms of the velocity curve (i.e. how fast I press versus how much sound comes out). How does it sound?

One dimension to this decision is that (presumably) the Kohler was a lot more expensive back when it was new. Let's say it originally sold for $2000 (according to keyboardamerica.co, the related model KD-30 is MSRP $3495 and they'll sell it for $1999). This means I would be getting what was closer to top-of-the-line technology from years ago, as opposed to the Casio which would be cheap technology of the current era of digital pianos. I don't know if that makes a big difference though. I just don't know if anyone has had any experience with it, and looking around, it seems like it wasn't all that popular, or at least, I haven't been able to find much info about it. Yeah the Kohler already having years of wear and tear is a bit problematic for me, but I'd be weighing that against the possibility of getting better years-old technology. I'll be trying it out on Sunday though so at least I'll get a feel for the action -- and be comparing that against the possibility of buying a Casio PX-150 without actually hearing its sound.

You should download and check the PX-150 manual. There's probably a "Brilliance" setting in the menu, that will brighten / darken the piano sounds. On the PX-350, it's fairly effective.

FWIW (lots of subjective stuff in what follows):

How "good" the PX-150 sounds is limited by its loudspeakers. The built-in speakers are small and underpowered -- so it won't reach "live piano" volume, and it will have weak low bass. [Most low-priced DP's have these problems.]

Through decent headphones, or a good loudspeaker system, it'll be _much_ better. The decay time will be shorter than an acoustic, but longer than most previous-generation DP's. There's good variation in tone from "pp" to "ff", and plenty of dynamic range.

You want this as a "practice piano". It should be fine for that.

. Charles

Just a quick update...I ended up buying a Casio Privia PX-150. My concerns were that I never got to hear its sound and sporadic reports of clicky keys, but I think it being portable (compared to the Kohler KD-50) and having a relatively heavy action for this price range were the major advantages it had. Also, that its sound brightness is adjustable -- means when it comes I'll likely set it to the least bright and keep it there, heh, since I prefer a mellower sound. The Yamahas I tried sounded too bright. I was also worried about the Kohler being out of warranty.

I think Casio do have a past reputation of making "toy" instruments, and Yamaha are known for their reliability, but as long as my keyboard doesn't have any quality issues I don't really mind the past reputation. My family will definitely have a variety of pianos though -- we have a Steinway (acoustic) at home, while the kids (all of us having moved out now) have a Yamaha, a Roland, and soon a Casio (all digital). I was also impressed with Mike Martin's involvement with DPBSD since I'm in engineering and like looking into technical details; at some point I'll probably start looking into quantifying key touch between digitals and acoustics somehow once I start fiddling around with the Casio

You'll get a big, big medal if you manage to do that!!

. Charles

The shipment arrived this morning. It was pretty fast (arrived at Fedex's warehouse yesterday at 6 pm), though Austin is just about a 3-4 hour drive away from here. My first impressions are:

1. The thing is big. I mean I know how wide a keyboard is, but it just "feels" bigger now that there's one in my apartment room.
2. I got a bundle which included an adjustable X-stand. To adjust the X-stand's height, there are some holes that you can stick a pin into, so it's a discrete set of heights. Unfortunately, the closest settings make the top of the Casio's keys end up either 25" off the ground, or about 30" off the ground, rather than the standard acoustic key height of about 28". That's a knock on the stand manufacturer though, not Casio. I'm not sure what to do about this unless I turn the stand on its side and hope there's a good height. Actually, it means I'll adjust the height of my seat but it won't be the height I'm used to playing at. Oh well.
3. The high C and C# (about 1 octave from the highest note) sound really shrill to me. The notes around them do not. I don't know if they're using the same sound sample or not. I tried recording it, but incidentally, the shrillness doesn't come through in the recording, so I don't know if it's just a function of whether I'm sitting and where my head is. Maybe my head's fundamental frequency just happens to be around those notes or something. I'd like to try it out with headphones, to see if it's a speaker issue, except the headphones, which were supposed to come with a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter, didn't. As a side note, the key "clickiness" was a lot louder in the recording than how it sounds to me.
4. Overall, the sound is fine, though I haven't really messed around with the settings. Happy about that. Although, I can't really hear the difference whether the touch response was set to 1 or 3.
5. For touch, I think the biggest issue for me, other than it having a different velocity curve than an acoustic piano, is the fulcrum distance. Once I move my fingers away from the tip of the keys it's noticeably harder to push the keys down. For example, near the end of Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu, the RH plays repeating D#-C#-G#-low G#- and I play with the fingering of 3-2-5-1-, which means the two fingers in the middle are significantly closer to the fallboard. Their sound is even on an acoustic piano, but they barely come out on the Casio because of how much heavier it is. So once I'm past learning notes I will probably move to an acoustic piano. Fortunately, that was the plan anyway (use digital to do basic stuff, then polish on acoustic), but that's the biggest difference from an acoustic that I've noticed. I assume there are design reasons why the fulcrum isn't closer to that of an acoustic piano on the more inexpensive digital pianos.
6. There's a plastic clicking noise when I hit any of the black keys from the side (instead of from above). I'm guessing it's the black key hitting the adjoining white key -- the keys do allow for some horizontal travel. In the "make lemonade from lemons" category, I guess I do sometimes hit the black keys incorrectly (i.e. diagonally instead of downwards) for some pieces like the jumps at the beginning of La Campanella, so those clicks will serve as reminders for me to watch how I'm striking those keys.

The only thing that may be a dealbreaker for me right now is the shrillness of the C and C#, but I'll have to experiment with it in the next few days to see if it's really just me. They play just fine (i.e. they can be played softly which won't sound shrill) so it's not an issue of the touch velocity thing being broken, it's something to do with the sound reproduction I think, and only when they're played loudly. Unfortunately, a number of the pieces I play (Fantaisie-Impromptu, Hungarian Rhapsody 2) do use those notes quite a bit. Is this an issue that people have encountered before with the Privia?

a) The C and C# -- maybe it's room acoustics? Try moving the piano around. Try using headphones.

b) I think the _only_ reason for "short levers" is that, the longer the lever, the longer (front-to-back) the piano. So they sacrifice good mechanics to reduce the size (and weight) of the keyboard.

I hope somebody figures out how to make a "virtual-lever" key, that is physically short but _acts_ like a long one.

c) I have my X-stand "between holes". Use a rope, make several turns from one top-bar to the other top-bar. The weight of the piano tensions the rope. It's quite stable.

It sounds like you're starting to have fun -- keep it up!

. Charles

I'm surprised you don't hear a touch response difference between 1 and 3. I've a px-150 elsewhere but I'm not with it today so can't verify anything. I can't remember the touch-sensitivity numbering layout because I set mine up and never changed it. IIRC one of those three settings is fixed isn't it? - you get ff no matter how you strike the key? For the other two settings try tapping out one note repeatedly at the same level of p or pp then switch between those two settings while playing the repetition - you should hear a clear difference.

The X-stand trick that Charles suggested should be fine but if you don't trust the strength of your tying rope I can point you to a simple mod I did with a couple of lengths of wood.

I don’t know what the fulcrum length is, it’s probably modest but I only occasionally came up against the problem of excessive resistance at the fall board. Your comments about FI interest me because I fumble badly through this piece from time to time and am familiar with the end section you mention. I’m not an advanced player but the D#/C# pair (3,2) caused me no problem on the Casio and my fingertips would be within 2 cms of the fallboard. I’m wondering to what extent this is to do with adaptability? I learnt on a spinet and have played a motley variety of pianos in my long and miserable life so perhaps one learns to call upon some extra force in the fingers? If you’ve come from a decent, long-key piano, it may be that you need simply to adjust to the compromise that is the budget DP. (The insurmountable problem I have with FI is a few bars later where the accented melody is E, C#, E and is why no one will ever hear me play this piece!).

I too get the clicking black key when hitting it obliquely. As you say, it’s a reminder we’re doing something wrong!

Shrill notes: I’ve recently diagnosed a similar problem in the VPC1. I haven’t checked yet but I suspect there’s an exaggerated velocity reading from the sensors on a couple of notes. It’s not bothering me enough to get excited about but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that sensor response can be somewhat variable, that tolerances may be a tad wider than we expect.

I think the PX-150 is a very usable DP and it sounds as if you’re describing a few things that are inside a forgivable tolerance but of course you must decide if something isn’t up to scratch.