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Hello dear all,

I was interested in the following: I have a very ancient, but truly stunning in its appearance, square piano, which is totally unplayable and would cost me a fortune to be fully rebuilt. I love the case, which is from 1830s, I suppose, and would like to preserve it. In connection with this, I was thinking to get a quality keyboard and get it built into the square piano case. Since I am completely ignorant in this type of issues, I am looking for an "expert" opinion. I would appreciate if someone would assist me on this matter.

The questions I would like you to answer are the following:

1. Are there digital pianos with real piano feel regarding touch, feel, etc. on the market?

2. What do they cost? (price range)

3. Is it possible to build a digital into a real piano case? (I assume it is; however, I would like to hear an opinion of someone who knows).

Random opinions are also very welcome. I'm looking foward to receiving your replies.

One of our resellers has done this retrofit successfully in the past with the Roland KR107. I will send you a PM.

PPBC

Check out Kawais new digital action.

I agree that Kawai's the way to go.

Thank you. Now can anybody educate me about the price of a good digital piano (bottom price and top price)? Since I am not into digitals (have been owning acoustic pianos all my life), I have no idea about that. I'd appreciate that.

Hi Baron,

I don't think I'd ad a digital to an old piano case. To me, it would devalue both of them. You'd mangle the old piano in the process and then you'd be stuck with a digital in there that isn't as convenient as a normal digital in its own moveable case.

Also, digital pianos will probably be even better in 10 years time when the computer chips are faster. It would be easier to upgrade to another digital rather than trying to ad a new digital to your old case again.

I have a Roland HP 103 (home style) which is okay, but if I were to upgrade I'd buy a Roland RD700SX (stage piano) and some small monitors. Its about $3600 Australian Dollars. Then in your case I'd keep the old piano as an ornament and not alter it. One day, you might want to restore it.

Regards,

Melbourne Gary

When you say "totally unplayable and would cost me a fortune to be fully rebuilt", is it unplayable due to the action having issues or is it because of some other problem, I.E. can't be tuned, cracked soundboard, etc.?

Unless the action is in very bad physical shape, it can be adjusted to even out the keys so it feels OK.

The reason I ask; you might want to consider the MOOG PianoBar . This device requires very simple installation as it consists of a slim sensor bar that rests at the very back of the keys against the fallboard. There is no physical contact with the keys as it uses specially designed sensors to detect key movement. A cable from the sensor bar connects to a small module that contains a sound source with 300 or so sounds. The nice thing is it also generates a MIDI signal that could be connected to the piano module of your choice.

I think it may even be possible to mount the PianoBar on the action behind the fall board as long as there is enough room. MOOG doesn’t mention this, but it seems like it may be possible.

I agree with Melbourne Gary that it would be a shame to make modifications to the acoustic or digital piano as that would destroy their value. The PianoBar isn’t cheap, but by the time you spend the money and time on making those modifications, you could get the same results without tearing up two instruments.

Just a thought.

Best Regards,

Dave

The problem here, as I see it anyways (please correct if I am wrong) is the sheer age of the Square Grand. Anything from the 1830's really by this point is typically WAY beyond the point of any economical repair.

The MOOG PianoBar is an interesting application that I completely forgot though Dave, thanks for the reminder.

Anyways Baron, you should probably consider shopping for a Digital Piano starting at around $1500 (USD) and be prepared to spend up to and including $5000 or even more dpending on the features that you deem to be important.

There are really 2 main categories of digital piano that (I think) would be of interest to you. One is a more straight type home piano (Roland HP Series, Yamaha CLP Series, General Music RP Series, Kawai CN (CA) Series, amongst others)

The other type is an Arranger or Accompaniment Style Digital Piano. (Roland KR Series, Yamaha CVP Series, Kawai CP Series, General Music has Arranger pianos too and I am sorry but cannot remember the Series (Dave perhaps you can fill this blank for me)

One caution is that in some cases the cabinets and speaker systems of some home digital pianos are specially optimized to reproduce the recorded Grand piano sound together as a unit. Perhaps using a stage style piano (Roland RD, Yamaha P, General Music ProMega or PRP, or Kawai MP) with a very high end but discreet speaker system may be the way to go instead.

Sorry to throw all the variables at you, but when a very select few of our customers have opted to go this route, we have had to take many of these factors into consideration. Just want to be sure you know what you're getting into.

Sincerely though, you need to try EVERYTHING available to you to determine what is right for YOU and YOU only. Only when you have decided which (if any) digital piano is right for you, is it time to decide on whether or not to install the components of the digital instrument into the Square Grand Cabinet. Recognizing of course that any warranty offered on any digital instrument will probably be voided by doing this. But I have heard of this install being successful in the past. And I wish you luck on your quest.

The challenge here is that Each of these instruments (typically is built into a cabinet with speakers) would have to be completely dis-assembled and re-assembled into the Square Grand Cabinet. But I wish you best of luck and we are here for you to query further

Thank you very much for your most valuable advice. I have played the digital keyboard only twice in my entire life, and for this reason I have no any sort of knowledge about what to consider when buying digital.

My friend who is an antiques expert said yesterday that my square piano is even from 1820's. WDMcM, no, the piano is totally unplayable and need complete rebuilt, just as I said, since the action inside has totally decayed. It doesn't make any sound at all, misses about a third of all strings, but is absolutely gorgeous in its appearance, with many different woods used in its cabinet. And it retains its turtoiseshell keys (big reason that makes me thiking about turning down the idea of fitting a digital inside, since afterwards these keys will have to go). I was quoted that a complete rebuilt of my piano with all internal parts being manufactured by hand copied from the original parts would cost me 40,000 Euros. I think I might follow your advice and leave the square piano for better days when I might have sufficient funds (and desire) to restore it, while now I will purchase a digital (since I am in need of not very expensive instrument).

In this connection I have several more questions to address to you:

1. Stage digital pianos -- these are keyboard, I assume. Do they have built-in speakers? How much does a quality stage piano cost in average? I am not interested in additional sounds, except probably several piano modes, a harpsichord, and an organ.

2. Home digital pianos (those with sturdy cabinets) -- what would be a price of a good (not very expensive, middle priced) piano of this kind?

3. Those that look like small awkward-looking grand pianos -- what would be a price of one? I remember myself playing one in a piano store in Indianapolis 5 years ago(I think it was a Suzuki digital grand) and found its sound SO SYNTHETIC and FAKE that I made a decision not to come back to digitals any more. However, I think these days (5 years since) digital quality has improved. Also, I listened to few digital pianos samples on Yamaha International website and was amazed.

I apologize for these questions that this forum has probably answered for many hundreds times. I am just lost searching for right information, considering that all info is so different and often contradictory. Thank you for your attention.

Your questions although based mainly on price are really good and it's no problem helping you out.

I (and I think many others) would feel remiss in telling you any pricing as your profile and location has you all over the place (lucky guy) so investigate the pricing in the country where you expect the digital piano to reside (this is mainly for reasons of warranty as most manufacturers warranties are good only for the country of purchase)

Be aware that pricing can vary wildly country to country and sometimes saving 50-100 euro/dollars or some amount like that by buying it somewhere else may not always be worth it for the reasons discussed above.


Stage Digital Pianos (Full 88 key weighted piano action keyboards) usually dont have internal speakers although there are exceptions to this. The Yamaha P-140 and P-250 (amongst others) spring to mind. Although it is my humble opinion that the P-140 is not nearly as professional level as it's predeccesor, the P-120 was. (To qualify, some of the more pro level features I thought would be necessary were omitted JMHO) The P-250 is very nice, and has built in speakers but is extremely heavy.

A few Roland models I would recommend are:

RD-700SX (Good key touch and outstanding Piano sound) although it would require an external speaker system.
FP-5 Great key touch nice piano sound through the built in speaker system.
Any HP-Series Piano although I would reccomend HP103 and HP107

General Music PRP700 and 800 (stage/portable versions) and RP700 and 800 (cabinet style versions) are well worth considering too.

Any Yamaha CLP from the CLP240 on upwards to the CLP280


I am glad that you are remaining open minded to technology even though the last Digital Grand left a VERY bad taste in your mouth. And yes, rest assured that the sound and keytouch (in most cases) has taken great strides in the last 5 years.

Roland (see below), Yamaha (CVP-309GP and CLP-175), and General Music(Model numbers Dave please) all make digital grand pianos.

Roland just announced a new series of KR Grand pianos at the Winter Music Trade show in Anaheim California in January. Granted I am a Roland Guy, but these are WELL WORTH a look! Also consider the HP109 Digital Grand Piano.

ProPianoGuyBC, thank you very much for your prompt and informative response! I appreciate your time and attention. I still have some questions (I apologize.... )

1. Are stage pianos sufficient enough to deliver full grand piano sound? (for example, P-250)

2. Digital grands do cost more. Is there any superiority in their sound in comparison with "upright" digital piano or is it just their looks?

3. What would be the bottom price for my search for a quality digital with most realistic grand piano sound/touch? What is average price I should expect for a quality digital that would satisfy my needs?

Once again, please let me thank you for your patience. Indeed, your assistance is a great help to me.

1. I am talking here about stage pianos with speakers, as P-250, and others.

3. I still would like to hear the price, in USD if possible, and for the US territory. I work for the United Nations Development Programme and travel back and forth all the time without having sufficient time for looking for prices myself. So, please, if you could give me approximate price that would be great, so that I could plan my budget and what I can actually afford.

This is in response to question #3. And please note that as I have no familarity with Rolands whatsoever, I'm only linking to Yamaha prices. Roland's models should cost just slightly more.

P70, ~$600
P90, ~$1000
P250, ~$2000

Does anyone know how many samples each key has on these models?

Many of the available stage pianos have a sound that at least equal to if not superior to the home counterparts. The reason for this is simply that (in some cases) manufacturers undertake careful post sampling sound design work to ensure that these pianos sound their best in a "Live" environment. As opposed to a Home Cabinet Model Piano is intended to be used in a "Solo" situation where the sound (again in some cases) is optimized for the speaker system and cabinet.

I can certainly say that the above mentioned sound design work is done on EVERY Roland Piano.

Quite often, the Digital Grand instrument is nothing more than a bigger polished ebony case case but (Speaking for the Rolands anyways) there is a new piano sample included on the higher end Roland models (KR115 and up) that is an 88 key multi sample (4 different velocities EACH KEY) called Superior Grand. (some forumites will recognize this patch from the Roland RD-700SX Stage Piano)

Pricing again varies wildly country to country and I am not in a position to offer any help here but perhaps someone else can offer more in the way of assisatnce.

I have played this sound in these Grand Piano Cabinets and beleive me it is Fantastic!

Check out the prices at www.kraftmusic.com for an idea of stage piano costs in the US.

On the other hand, one particular company takes the same sound and technology found in thier flagship model and puts it into every model of home and stage digital piano. Only the number of extra sounds and programming flexibitity is reduced as the price goes down.

Sounds like a perfect specimen for Antique Roadshow.

Howard

Can anybody give me the price of a good digital in a grand piano cabinet?

How about This ?

Price looks good. Sound sample found on that digital grand is also impressive, although I couldn't quite appreciate it due to low-quality speakers on my laptop computer. It says in the text that the sound of grand piano is being sampled from 308 Fazioli.

I have a question now. For example, say you have 6 thousand dollars to spend on a piano. Under this condition what is better to purchase, a digital or an acoustic? Digital grand piano or an acoustic one? What will give you a better sound quality?