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Just a general question from any with broader experience than I in using Renner parts. Do shanks and flanges come demarked for notes 1 thru 88? I ask because I've read and it seems to make sence that you would want greater friction at the center pins in the bass and less on up. I was wondering how much variation is experienced by the gallery, here on the forum.

I choose to have the hammers/shanks/flanges sent direct to be hung and am not sure they will go to the trouble of grouping them by friction, again assuming they aren't marked already. Naturally, I'd like to minimize, or eliminate the need for any repinning.

TIA,
Chris

Chris,you're in way over your head.In the real world sets of shanks come from the manufacturer with pinning friction all over the map,and a set is not usually numbered from#1-#88.There are many ways to go about this,first you can get a spring tension gage( measuring in grams) and measure the flange pinning of every shank.Sort,tight pinning for the bass,medium for tenor/treble,and lightly pinned for the high treble.Hammer flanges should measure from 5-9 grams.,this is a general measurement,each manufacturer has it's own specs.Second,you can hang the set of hammers,then remove and swing test each flange's center ,then repin each center for for the correct flange tension(6 swings for bass-tenor,5 swings treble,4 swings high treble).This subject is complex and must be studied and practiced,get the PTG's Technical Examination Source B ook,it will give you a guide to each aspect in action regulation.

Thanks, your points have been very helpful, despite the abuse .

I've got 88 sets of old parts to torture before taking a crack at rectifying the German equipment that is, SURPRISE, "all over the map". I have more respect for you technicians almost every day.

If Brooks hangs a set, would I be living a fantasy to think they'd group by friction before proceeding? I didn't bother to ask after the response I got from requesting a short bore taper for string heights that drop 3/16ths into the high treble.

Chris

Chris,sorry for the abuse .This is an art,it takes a lot of know-how,and practice.Guess what though.If you buy pre-hungs from Wally Brooks,the flange pinning will be very close,more so than other brands.You might have to repin 3 or 4.The last set of Abel Encores I purchased was pinned correctly from bass to treble.I had to re-pin 3 flanges.This is your best bet.Last don't argue hammer boring with Wally,he knows whats best,having examined hundreds of pianos,he knows what bore lengths ,weights and taper should be for your piano.Report on your progress.

Curry, you explained:

And then you indicated that "hammer flanges should measure from 5 to 9 grams". Is this all part of the same operation? The spring tension gage measures the hammer flanges? If so, could you please describe for me what is going on there? What is the gage actually measuring? You are not just talking about weighing the flange are you? Thanks.

Rick

Rick,not weighing the shank and flanges.Just the old measure of tension of the bushed flange.Not very accurate with the tension gauges sold by the supply houses,but it will speed up sorting the shanks before hanging hammers.I prefer to go back and swing test each shank and flange after hammer hanging,and repin as needed.This makes regulating and voicing so much easier,especially if all action centers are pinned to correct friction specs.

Don't forget to take into account the ambiant humidity when addressing flanges. Flanges should be tighter in the summer than in the winter. The my down weight on my Baldwin grand changes dramatically from summer to winter due to action parts swelling and contracting.

Also..."Rick,not weighing the shank and flanges.Just the old measure of tension of the bushed flange.Not very accurate with the tension gauges sold by the supply houses,but it will speed up sorting the shanks before hanging hammers.I prefer to go back and swing test each shank and flange after hammer hanging,and repin as needed.This makes regulating and voicing so much easier,especially if all action centers are pinned to correct friction specs."

If you accept rebuilding work, it is a very bad idea to think you can skip some of the most important steps. I don't know of any tech who gets a thrill out or repinning but you just have to get into the mindset that you have to do what you have to do.

I've been in the business a very long time. I realized at one point that the tasks which I disliked were the ones I could not do well. I was inefficient and the job was tedious. When I finally learned to do the job well, it became a source of pride and accomplishment to get the job done quickly and efficiently.

What I would suggest skipping is using a tension guage. I agree with those who say that the results are inaccurate. Indeed, using one of those may give you the false impression that the pinning varies wildly when it really doesn't.

A better way of sorting out the tight-just right- and a little loose flanges would be to take a single weight or even one of the hammers (use a bass hammer) and put it on each shank and do a swing test first. If you put your mind to it and don't waste time, you can sort your shanks in 10 minutes or so.

Now, do your hanging. Then, after hanging, just make up your mind you are going to repin the loose ones. You might be able to save a little time by putting a drop of alcohol on the overly tight ones but you could make even those too loose. Using Vodka as some people suggest can be overly effective and cause you to have to repin those you treated.

Get a couple of good pin vices and make yourself reamers by dragging a few different sizes of pins between two files. Use a clean pin as a burnisher after reaming. Get yourself all set up and JUST DO IT! You will probably find that most of the pinning is acceptable and that you are limited to a minority which you have to fix. You may easily get through the whole set in a 1/2 hour.

This small amount of time spent will make a far better job of the subsequent regulation and voicing as another writer suggested. Loosely pinned flanges will create a poor tone, too tight flanges will cause difficulty in regulation. You'd have to repin in any case to solve these problems. Doing it in advance will save you much time and frustration.

Those suppliers who offer prehung hammers are really expert in their work. If you don't think you could do better than they do, it is most cost and time efficient to use their products and services.

I think I'll have someone else re-pin, if needed.

The parts came to me, by mistake (glad) on Friday. Last night I felt my OCD kicking in as I was up past midnight weighing and grouping. A couple things:

An interesting sidebar. Most folks who don't do this probably don't realize what seems common practice in parts shipment and that is to send sets of 90, and not 88. The whippens, shanks/flanges and Steinway hammers (two different companies) all came this way.

I'm somewhat torn on numbering the shanks/flanges. One third of the shanks are narrower, I assume, for the treble. On average they weighed just under .5 grams lighter than the other 2/3rds (7.2 vs about 7.7gr). The issue is that grouping strictly by friction mixes some of them down into the tenor (3rd octave). I tested by first, flopping them around a couple times to free them up a little before holding the flange, as if mounted to the rail, and comparitively drop testing the hammerless ends from horizontal. The fact that a lighter shank will fall more slowly with the same friction as a heavier one was ignored because the weight difference was so small. The narrow shanks did predominate in the treble irregardless of weight, so the issue is if, and how much, I should allow any intermingling of thick and thin shanks in the third thru fifth octaves. Would narrow shanks really be in jeopardy of breaking if used at, say, C4? Strictly grouping the narrow shanks higher than the others will certainly mean a significant, and noticable, friction jump at the changeover.

Could this be a re-pin scenario in order to keep these shank thicknesses seperate? It would mean a dozen, or so. Gulp.

I want to make things as easy as possible for Brooks Ltd., as I am afraid we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. I hung up after a long first call with them having gotten the impression that they would accept non-Abel parts for hanging. Having called last week to announce I wished to use them with Steinway parts, there was a misunderstanding. It now looks like, with a small upcharge, things are still a go, but I don't feel in a position to be playing 20,000 questions, or requests, for that matter. That's why the post.

Chris
PS - narrow shanks in the middle would be weight adjusted up that half gram, or whatever it is that produces a smooth strike weight curve.

Chris,the tapered/channeled shanks,there should be about 30,all go in the high treble nowhere else.There is a voicing/tonal reason for this.You're going about this all wrong.When you get the hammers,take a bass hammer and swing test several shanks to find the 20 you'll need with the correct pinning for the bass,(Steinway B 20 note bass),bass should swing 6-7 times.Then use a corresponding tenor hammer to get you the tenor shanks(5-6 swings),low treble(4-5 swings)then high treble(4-5 swings).Once the hammers are hung, the action regulated,and hammers voiced you go back and check all,then repin all flanges that do not have the correct friction.This is the way it is done.You can't cut corners.

Curry,

I have the hammers. They aren't bored, so I'd have to temporarily attach them, or use equivalent dead weight to test as you say. I did not plan on simply numbering the 90 shanks according to the test I performed, but with the pinning sorted by friction I think it might help when they make the final selection (ie. when you've got #25 and it isn't tight enough, reach for #20, etc).

At this point, I feel I might be confusing things by doing any more than attaching a note on how they're packaged.

Can I ask if you were sending parts to Wally, would you do what you described beforehand?

Chris