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In Debussy's Prelude 8 (Book 1), "La fille aux cheveux de lin," in measure 11, the "railroad tracks" symbol is used in what seems to be a non-standard way.

Normally, of course, this symbol represents a caesura, a break or pause. But in this instance, it seems to have a different meaning. It's the end of a phrase. The word "cédez" (roughly: rit.) appears, followed by dots till the end of the measure, then the railroad tracks symbol, then "Mouvt" (a tempo).

When I first played the piece, I assumed that the symbol represented a break. But then I realized that it probably simply represented the end of the "cédez" and the beginning of the "Mouvt."

Is this correct? Does the railroad tracks symbol simply have a different meaning when it appears in French music?

Here's the link to the score in IMSLP Petrucci - http://imslp.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A9ludes_(Book_1)_(Debussy,_Claude).

Thanks.


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I'm not sure you can say across the board for French music simply because one composer does it. But for Debussy, the two lines signify an end to the Cedez, and not a pause or break in the sound as commonly found in other works.

When in doubt, you can always consult the experts on youtube. In the end, though, go with your instincts. Putting a break in these spots sounds unmusical and awkward, IMO, so it must mean something else. smile


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I have played this piece since 1971, so I am most familiar with it. The first mistake people make in playing this an other Debussy is that they commonly phrase the way they do with Romantic Period repertoire. Debussy used to go nuts when he would hear people romanticize his music, which unfortunately they still do. Debussy's phrasing is angular with one idea going on to the next. In this particular instance, he is descending and slowing down with one idea, and then he rolls the first chord of measure # 12 and then ascends. All the caesura is meant to do is to make sure that one idea ends, and then another begins. At the end of measure #11, I utilize a very, very slight ritard, followed by a very fast and soft roll, which slightly tapers at the beginning of measure # 13. Thanks for asking. This a very important part of the piece, which most people play incorrectly.

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Thanks for your comments.

I don't understand what you mean by "romanticizing" the music. Can you clarify?


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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
I have played this piece since 1971, so I am most familiar with it. The first mistake people make in playing this an other Debussy is that they commonly phrase the way they do with Romantic Period repertoire.

Debussy used to go nuts when he would hear people romanticize his music, which unfortunately they still do.

Debussy's phrasing is angular with one idea going on to the next.

In this particular instance, he is descending and slowing down with one idea, and then he rolls the first chord of measure # 12 and then ascends. All the caesura is meant to do is to make sure that one idea ends, and then another begins.

At the end of measure #11, I utilize a very, very slight ritard, followed by a very fast and soft roll, which slightly tapers at the beginning of measure # 13.

Thanks for asking. This a very important part of the piece, which most people play incorrectly.


Can you post an example of what you mean? I'd love to hear this and see if it's what I do.


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It cost me over $400 to make my video, and I just don't have that kind of money to post recordings in answer to a post. However, with the following link, I can answer both of your questions.

1) Here is an example of romantic phrasing of Debussy, however the artist is the only one that I know of, (other than myself) that extensively rolls his chords in this piece. This is the way Debussy did it, who regularly played this piece as part of his performance repertoire.

For those who have taken trigonometry, they are familiar with the sine wave or the cosine wave. That is essentially what romantic phrasing is. It is song-like and rhapsodic.

That is not the way Debussy wanted his music played. He wanted it played very straightforward without hamming it up, which is what this artist does. I would have posted Lang Lang's recording of this piece as a more striking example, but I couldn't stop laughing long enough to listen to the whole thing.

2) In terms of the original question presented by the OP, this is pretty much the way I play those three measures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MswHKA4dako

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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
It cost me over $400 to make my video, and I just don't have that kind of money to post recordings in answer to a post. However, with the following link, I can answer both of your questions.

1) Here is an example of romantic phrasing of Debussy, however the artist is the only one that I know of, (other than myself) that extensively rolls his chords in this piece. This is the way Debussy did it, who regularly played this piece as part of his performance repertoire.

For those who have taken trigonometry, they are familiar with the sine wave or the cosine wave. That is essentially what romantic phrasing is. It is song-like and rhapsodic.

That is not the way Debussy wanted his music played. He wanted it played very straightforward without hamming it up, which is what this artist does. I would have posted Lang Lang's recording of this piece as a more striking example, but I couldn't stop laughing long enough to listen to the whole thing.

2) In terms of the original question presented by the OP, this is pretty much the way I play those three measures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MswHKA4dako


Note I didn't necessarily ask you to post a recording of yourself, so Michelangeli is fine.

He still rolls chords and asyncs the hands. I think his rendition is perfectly tasteful, but I don't hear any breaks where the railroad tracks are, which was the OP's question. This is how I play it - although my interpretation varies from Michelangeli's, of course, but in the same manner.


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I don't play it with any breaks, either. Accordingly, I list two recordings by one of the greatest female pianist of all time, who personally studied these pieces under the composer.

They are a perfect example of what I mean by straightforward playing, without romanticizing. Even in the second selection, which is marked "Molto rubato," it is not a Romantic Period rubato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzhaPbVlZGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn60ugoTHtc

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Can you post an example of what you mean by Romantic Period legato?

Maybe you meant to characterize Lang Lang's recording of this piece that way? I wasn't clear on what you were implying.


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The 'railroadtrack'sign is quite common in french print, it just means: 'end of section', Alkan is full of it. It has no influence on tempo/dynamics, it's just for the player, not for the audience.


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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
The 'railroadtrack'sign is quite common in french print, it just means: 'end of section', Alkan is full of it. It has no influence on tempo/dynamics, it's just for the player, not for the audience.

Thank you so very much for your musicological input. We have all learned from it, from now on.

Next, regarding the OP's latest question, I referenced the term Romantic Period "rubato," and not legato. Here is a very recent example, of exactly just that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPaEpvTB-4I

Please compare it with the angular phrasing of Debussy. And, remember, his big piece at the Paris Conservatory was the G Minor Ballade, so he definitely knew the difference.

Lest anyone jump to the conclusion: there is no right and wrong here. There is only the compositional style of one compositional period contrasted with another.

One is played the way the composer (Chopin) intended, who was a devotee of the Bel Canto Aria style, and another is performed as Claude Debussy (classically trained) intended, who considered himself a modernist.

The "problema" is that many a pianist has lumped the two into one.

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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
The 'railroadtrack'sign is quite common in french print, it just means: 'end of section', Alkan is full of it. It has no influence on tempo/dynamics, it's just for the player, not for the audience.

Thank you so very much for your musicological input. We have all learned from it, from now on.

Next, regarding the OP's latest question, I referenced the term Romantic Period "rubato," and not legato. Here is a very recent example, of exactly just that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPaEpvTB-4I

Please compare it with the angular phrasing of Debussy. And, remember, his big piece at the Paris Conservatory was the G Minor Ballade, so he definitely knew the difference.

Lest anyone jump to the conclusion: there is no right and wrong here. There is only the compositional style of one compositional period contrasted with another.

One is played the way the composer (Chopin) intended, who was a devotee of the Bel Canto Aria style, and another is performed as Claude Debussy (classically trained) intended, who considered himself a modernist.

The "problema" is that many a pianist has lumped the two into one.
A big mistake, I agree.


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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
I don't play it with any breaks, either. Accordingly, I list two recordings by one of the greatest female pianist of all time, who personally studied these pieces under the composer.

They are a perfect example of what I mean by straightforward playing, without romanticizing. Even in the second selection, which is marked "Molto rubato," it is not a Romantic Period rubato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzhaPbVlZGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn60ugoTHtc


I do break when I see the railroad tracks, as I believe is my prerogative as the interpreter. The evidence I have is inconclusive, though I'm happy to hear what you have.. be it from him or Ricardo Viñes or anyone else who you could consider close to the composer.

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Here is a link to the definitive take on the subject, which was recorded in the year 2000 by my now dear friend Kenneth Caswell. Included in the liner notes is a copy of a personal note from the hyper-critical composer to Mr. Welte praising the accuracy of the recording.

I very recently found out that Ken spent a total of 15 years recording and fine tuning this work in order to establish its veracity.

Just listening to the samples will change your life, as it has now changed mine. Enjoy.

http://www.amazon.com/Claude-Debuss...amp;keywords=debussy+composer+as+pianist

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Hi Everyone,

There is a series of many pages online about Debussy's views regarding the performance of his own piano music, which begin here:

http://www.djupdal.org/karstein/debussy/method/m01.shtml

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[/quote] I do break when I see the railroad tracks, as I believe is my prerogative as the interpreter. The evidence I have is inconclusive, though I'm happy to hear what you have.. be it from him or Ricardo Viñes or anyone else who you could consider close to the composer. [/quote]


Me too. Quite often this marking shows a phrase ending with quicker notes that don't lead to the next bit; for me a counter-intuitive process for which I need encouragement to execute effectively. What would be the point of writing a caesura which didn't require a break?

John


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I stop at all marked railroad crossings! smile

Cheers!


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" What would be the point of writing a caesura which didn't require a break?"

But I think that what the other respondents (more expert than I) are saying is that in certain French music, the railroad tracks symbol does not represent a caesura. In this case it simply represents the end of the cédez.

In the more familiar notation, the end of a rit. is typically represented by the end of the dashed line after the rit. In this case, the end of the cédez extends to the end of the dashed line, which is ended by the railroad tracks symbol.

That's how I interpret the earlier comments.


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