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Today I spent some more quality time with a new Mason & Hamlin BB (7'). Now I'm thinking...

The only room I could put it in is 11x13x8 - but I could dedicate that room to being 'just' the piano room.

With the proper treatment to the room, does it sound like I'd be able to make that room a good home for the piano or will it just always be a big piano in a small room?

If you can live with this room as just a piano room, then absolutely yes. My Steinway B is in a 18x22x8 (just a guess) living room with carpeted floors and a large overstuffed sofa and some chairs.

The piano fits in just right physically and sound wise. If you can fit it, a 7' grand is a must have, IMHO.

Go for it my D is in a room thats not much bigger.

pics?

But Horowitzian, your room is more than twice as big!!

I am not saying that the BB won't be fine in the 11'by 13' room, but I don't think it is a sure thing either. I have a BB in a room that is 12'x18'x8' and opens onto other rooms at both ends. I usually play with the lid down and hinge folded back but I can play with the lid at half stick.

I was somewhat concerned about a BB being too big for the room, and there were also some knowledgble people(including techs and professional musicians) on the forum who strongly felt that it would be "too much piano" for that size room.

Here ae some suggestions:

1. Be upfront with the dealer. Ask them if they will allow you to return the piano within a reasonable amount of time if you agree to pay shipping both ways.

2. Ask the dealer if they will let you return the piano if you agree to buy a smaller model like the AA or A if the BB doesn't fit the room's acoustics. I think the sound of the different sized Masons is quite consistent among models. Have you tried an A or AA?

3. If you have a good tech you trust ask their opinion.

4. Ask the dealer if they know someone who has a BB or another 7' piano in a similarly sized room that you might be able to listen to.

5. Try to choose a BB that is on the mellow side.

6. Do a search on "big piano in a small room". This topic has come up quite a bit before.

Good luck!

I know, I was coming from the 8' ceiling angle. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that.

Thanks for the great replies so far.

On the aesthetic side of the equation, the Monticello case is only available in A (5'8") or BB (7').

The A isn't the sound I'm looking for.

That leaves me one choice: Mason & Hamlin Monticello BB in Satin Mahogany - which is a great choice for me to have, because thats the exact piano I lust for (the only picture I can find online is at http://www.faustharrisonpianos.com/Images/Mason-BB.jpg ).

My perspective now is not which piano to get, by how to make that one work... and building an addition onto the house isn't an option.

JeffBC -

I own a 2003 BB - satin ebony.

Have it situated in a small, carpeted living/dining room with a 25 foot ceiling. Of course, the piano is very loud (gloriously powerful) - but I usually practice with the lid down - which helps.

Bottom line - if you love the Mason - buy it. That's what really is important. The room you plan to keep it in sounds fine - as long as you can keep the humidity at a decent level and keep the piano away from heating vents. You probably won't always live in the same house - and you can take the piano with you.

I'd advise you to go for it - and don't have any second thoughts !!!

Pianoloverus,

My piano teacher studied for a while in her younger days with a graduate student at a school of music that I don't remember the name of. This graduate student lived in a small (and I repeat, SMALL) Victorian house.

The entire "dining" room of this house contained a concert grand . The piano just about took up the whole room, yet according to my teacher, the sound was still to die for. Not that I would do any such thing, but just sayin'...

Mason and Hamlins have excellent actions.
Keep it regulated well and you will be able to play that BB whisper-quiet.

I had a BB in an average living room and there was was no problem with excessive volume.
I now have a concert grand in there and still no problem.

All other things being equal a longer piano, with its longer keys, should offer more control of dynamics and ability to play softly.

Sure a higher volume is possible with a larger piano but just don't play so loud.

no reason to waste all that extra air.

Horowitzian- Here you go.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/21947

"no reason to waste all that extra air." well putApple.

But was the dining room an enclosed room or did it open onto other rooms? Was the lid open or closed? These are big differences IMHO.

Realplayer, a professional pianist on this forum, has a concert sized Mason CC. I am pretty sure he plays it with the lid completely closed(not with the lid hinge folded back).

I don't think this issue is quite as simple as you think it is. If it was why would some very good techs and professional musicians have told me that the BB might be a problem in my 12'x18' room?

I don't think things are quite this simple. First of all, as I remember things your piano room is bigger than mine(what are its three dimensions and does it open onto other rooms?) so calling it "average" is really not specific enough in this discussion even if it is average.

In my 12'x18'x8' living room, my BB is basically too loud if I play with the lid all the way up and it is not due to lack of control on my part or poor regulation. Although it is true that longer keys give you more control, if the composer says f or ff it's not good if you have to play a lesser dynamic("just don't play so loud") because of the room the piano is in. Of course, it's possible than even a smaller grand would sound too loud in my room with the lid all the way up.

If what you say is true, why does RealPlayer(who owns a Mason CC)have to play it, to the best of my knowledge, with the lid *completely closed*?
And why did some excellent techs on this board and a professional musician friend of mine who is an important conductor warn me that the BB might be too much piano for my room?

I just don't think this question of a big piano in a small room is quite as black and white as you seem to feel. I think each person's case has to looked at individually. That's why I recommended some of the ways of working our a possible return/exhcnage of the piano in my first post. In my experience many dealers are amenable to this approach.

Did you try the AA?

By the way, I played the exact piano in the picture you gave in your link around 10 years ago, and it was terrific sounding and gorgeous to look at. I wish I had had the nerve(in terms of spending the $) to buy it 10 years ago becuase I ended up paying as much for a satin ebony BB(that I love) that I bought 2 years ago because of price increases over ten years!

But hey, if you don't like your Monticello BB I would be willing to trade it for my ebony satin BB. I heard a rumor that the carved legs and lyre and mahogany finish on the Monticello model all make the piano sound much louder.

Pianoloverus,

Please read my post more carefully; I said "not that I would do such a thing". As this was a very old house, this room was likely pretty much enclosed. I tend to agree with kenny about big pianos, but I would NEVER try to cram a concert grand into such a tiny house. How they got it in there is beyond me anyway .

A big piano in a *reasonably* small space that has some acoustic deadening in it should not cause problems.

My teacher now has a Kawai GM-10 (baby grand) in a not particularly large living room w/ high ceilings and wood floors that is overpowering with lots of ringing overtones if played with the lid up and without a rug stuffed up under the soundboard. She does have the piano on an area rug, but it still is capable of overpowering the room.

Sorry for being so passionate

I certainly can see where you are coming from, though, because any piano in a small but *lively* room = trouble.

Jeff,

I saw a mention that the Monticello is only available as a BB or and A.

I have a smallish room and went with the AA satin, as I just was not sure that the BB would quite fit with all the furniture I have in the room besides the piano. But I certainly was not afraid of the sound! I found that the BB has even more control. And I have drapes and a quilt on the wall as well as full size area rug. My AA is not too loud by any means.

But for a Monticello BB, I surely would have tried! Are you going to get the rosewood black keys as well? BTW, do they now offer a rosewood piano still?

If you want to visit, let me know. PM me. It will give you an idea of what a piano looks like in a home setting. I did this with a fellow forumite before I purchased and it really helped me decide if I could even get a grand. Pics here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/16393.html#000020

See that extra room where the old pine dry sink is? It is 2 ft in depth. (and is no longer there)

Hmmmmm....

The latest version of the Piano Supplement lists the Monticello as being available in the AA model.

Even if Mason hasn't made any yet, you could probably special order one because it's just a question of exchanging the carved legs, lyre and music desk for the standard ones. Of course, the disadvantage of things this way is that the dealer probably wouldn't special order one unless you agree to take it and you wouldn't have the chance to play it first.

Thanks for the link, LJC

WOW!! beautiful room and a *Hamburg* D, no less. How old is the piano? How well does it work in your room acoustics wise? Is that your living room and piano Eugene Istomin is sitting at in the pic of the magazine?

I realize my opinion is not usual, and I think I know why.

There are four things that affect volume:

1. Piano condition
2. Player technique
3. Room characteristics
4. Piano size

I'm suggesting people do not give enough weight to the first three.
They are complicated.
#4 is simple.

Very few piano owners seek out an excellent tech and pay the high cost to keep their pianos finely regulated and voiced as they break in.

I'm a neurotic perfectionist.
Since coming to Pianoworld nine years ago I have pursued the optimum piano, regulated and voiced in the optimum way.
You never get there, but it's a groovy goal.
Regular voicing and regulation from a good piano tech is just as important as selecting a good piano.

Most pianos I have played were so poorly regulated that they could not whisper.
They were so unvoiced and the rooms so untreated and bright that their tone was piercing with the lid up.

Sadly this is the state of many, if not most, pianos.
Owners are just not informed about what their pianos are capable of and the magic of a good tech.
I think this may help explain why so many people think a piano can be too big for a room.

Raising the lid on a grand is a good thing.
It lets out more harmonics and clarity.
A well-voiced piano sounds best with the lid up, unless the room is too reflective.
Sure it lets out more volume but control that with regulation, voicing, room treatment and technique.

In the real world few pianos are optimized so few pianist have had the experience of playing in that zone.

So the mantra continues: Piano size = volume.
Big room, big piano.
Small room, small piano.